EB27 - Tatiana Moroz & Wendell Davis: Tatiana Coin, EBA warning, Counterparty, user created assets

Transcript

[Music] hello everyone and welcome to episoder bitcoin the show which talks about the Technologies projects and startups driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency Revolution my name is Sebastian kuch and I'm Brian fman crane today is July 6 2014 and thank you for joining us for episode 27 on today's show we have two guests on first is the Tiana morose she's a singer and a songwriter an anti-war activist and a very active Bitcoin enthusiast and evangelist recently Tatiana created Tatiana coin which is the first ever musical artist coin on the counterparty protocol and Tatiana coin is a token which will give holders exclusive access

to uh Tatiana gear events the upcoming album and so she's joining us today from New York Tatiana is also the new sales director at Bitcoin magazine hey Tatiana hi how's it going very good we also have Wendell Davis on uh you probably know Wendell episode 22 he's the creator of the hive wallet he's also the CEO of hum which is a company that aims to help companies create their own coins and deploy and sell branded coins so he's very knowledgeable in the field of kind of crowd sale platform uh tokens it's a Bitcoin 2.0 type thing so it would be great to

hear his views on tanic coin and that side so he's joining us from Thailand today hey vend how's it going guys great thanks for joining us I just want to point out how interesting this is because um Brian you're in Berlin I'm in Lil Tatiana is in New York and Wendell is literally on the other side of of the globe in Thailand so Tatiana it's like 10:00 a.m. where you are and Wendell it's probably close to 10: p.m. and you know even though we're spread out across the world we're able to communicate thoughts and ideas pretty much instantaneously as though we were sitting across from each other in in the same room it's the internet and

it's the internet yeah and and this is possible because of the internet and Technologies like tcpip and I just want to point out that um if this is possible it's mostly because you know when the internet started to develop and when companies like Skype started emerging uh they mostly went unregulated and although lobbies such as the Telecom lobbies Etc uh would have liked to kind of trample that Innovation before it got started uh regulatory bodies and and governments allowed it to happen for the most part and this is why we have the internet that we have today and we're able to do all these things and you know we can also look at e-commerce and how that's

revolutionized the way that we live and work and such and you know the it's such a stark contrast to bitcoin and it just goes to show that our I'm using air quotes here components uh which is the banking sector and the financial sector uh it just goes to show the grasp that they have on governments and the lobbying power that they have and I'm I'm I'm saying this because this week uh the European banking Authority which is a risk management uh risk assessment Authority based in the EU which basically consults all of the 28 member State National Banks

issued an opinion piece uh an opinion paper which it's a 20 47 page 46 page paper um where it identifies more than 70 risks Associated cry to cryptocurrencies in several categories and at first uh I mean when I first read about this uh I I thought about it I thought this is just another one of these Central Bank type papers which uh tries to warn the public about Bitcoin uh I think most of us and from discussions we've seen online kind of don't really understand the implications of this paper uh in in Europe but then I got a call from SE Sean Jones yesterday

who we had on several episodes ago and and who's quite specialized in the matters relating to uh regulation and told me and so she told me that this is actually very very bad news for Bitcoin at least in Europe and um so so we already had you our episode set up today with with Tatiana and Wendell and although this is really important news we're going to have Sean on uh next week for a full length episode on on exactly what this means for Bitcoin uh but she insisted that uh we discuss it today and so uh she was nice enough to record a short segment just to kind of go over what this uh paper means for Bitcoin in Europe and so uh here's Shan Jones

explaining this recent uh European banking Authority [Music] paper in a 46 page opinion published on Friday Europe's banking super reggulator the European banking Authority called for the regulation of virtual currencies in the European Union in December last year the EBA issued a public warning to Consumers about the risks of virtual currencies that triggered a raft of similar warnings from banking Regulators around around the world in its new opinion issued after a joint assessment carried out with other European authorities the ebaa proposes a two-pronged approach a whole new body of European Union

regulation governing virtual currencies that it acknowledges will take considerable time and in the meantime calls for immediate action by national Regulators in the 28 EU member states to discourage in its words Banks payment and e-money institutions from buying holding or selling virtual currencies in effect the EA is advising National Regulators to ban Banks and other payment institutions from directly dealing with virtual currencies instead it suggests virtual currencies should be allowed to develop outside the financial services sector presumably until such time as a regulatory regime is in place the EA also recommends that virtual currency gateways such as

exchanges be made subject to existing anti money laundering and counterterrorist financing regimes something that has already been enacted or proposed in other jurisdictions such as Canada and the ey of man the regulatory regime envisaged by the EA would require governance requirements for Market participants segregation of client funds and most controversially the creation of what the E calls scheme governing authorities to be accountable for the Integrity of each virtual currency imagine if you like the Bitcoin Foundation having to be authorized as the sole governing Authority on the use of Bitcoin in order for Bitcoin to be

allowed to interact with existing regulated financial services this will create a two-tier World in which regulated virtual currencies are permitted to be used in the Fiat world and unregulated virtual currencies are not arguably the EBA opinion is the single most significant event so far in the regulation of virtual currencies it has implications in the development of virtual currencies it will have immediate implications for banking relationships it will have significant cost implications and will cause business models to be re-evaluated in next week's episode I'll be covering the background to the EA its powers examining some of the 70 risks it identified with virtual currencies and

consider the next steps and likely outcomes of this significant development in Virtual currency regulation this is sha Jones for epicenter [Music] Bitcoin okay uh so thanks uh very much desan Jones for taking the time to record that for us and so we'll have her on next week to uh to go over uh these 70 uh risks Associated to bitcoin um from from the opinion of the European banking Authority yeah I I look forward to talking about that cuz I I you know I saw those news as that news as well I didn't really pay attention to it until

you know we heard from Sean like hey this is really important I mean guess it came out on Friday only uh and then I read it today and I had this impression you know I think all of us are aware that Bitcoin is just really revolutionary it has the potential to completely change uh the financial system the way we uh do Commerce the way money works also has the potential to change government the power of government um and it's always been sort of surprising to an extent when you see governments take a fairly um positive stance toward it they say like oh you know this is innovation Etc because of

course while it is that it's also extremely threatening and it seems governments hadn't grasped that and when I read this thing by the European banking Authority my impression was sort of that first of all they understand they're you know they're very aware of just how disruptive that can be to the banking to uh the banking system and uh the control of governments and that the that response in that paper is you know that's the kind of response you'd expect given that they grasp that so you know it feels sort of like the gloves are off uh so I'm I'm really uh interested in in getting this in depth so but you know

we'll do that mostly next week but it's a super important topic also I just want to remind everybody that we're going to be at coin Summit uh next week so uh if you want to uh meet us definitely send us an email enter Bitcoin gmail.com or send us a tweet and we'd love to meet with you and if if you want to talk to us if you want to do an interview or something like that um definitely get in touch with us yeah you you you'd actually have the chance see us in real life like that that flesh not you know not just see seeing pictures online this is a huge opportunity all right so um let's get into uh some perhaps funner topics than this recent ebaa news uh so Tatiana um you recently created Tatiana coin and uh

so could you just tell us a bit about tanic coin and the crowdfunding um that uh has been going on for the last little while uh yeah sure um so basically back in February I was in Berlin and uh we were I remember we were walking through the streets and everybody was joking around let's do a Tatiana coin and I thought that was very funny um but is that where you had the idea for tanic corn in Berlin well Adam Lavine had brought it up with me when I had visited him back in January but I didn't really understand he was explaining to me LTB coin and he was explaining how that model could be used in a recording studio or for an artist um so it was sort of like you know building up in terms of uh of my awareness of this as a

as a legitimate concept um but basically uh after I came back from Berlin I guess in early March Adam and I reconnected and uh we you know we chose uh to go with counterparty you know we were with Master coin for a while and then we went with counterparty and uh we went with coin Powers which is the crowdfunding platform upon which we were building our campaign um so I was the first coin ever launched on coin powers and um yeah since then you know we started the campaign with a model where we had 100,000 coins distri distributed daily of the 3 million coins uh total uh that we made over a 30-day period and it would the price would vary based on how many people would donate that day so if

it was a slow day the people who donated would get a really really large amount of coins and that was really fun for certain people who were really Savvy but for others it was very difficult and it became apparent um very quickly that that that might be a little bit of a challenge for some of my um fans that are newer to bitcoin so we uh stopped the campaign after the 15th day and we pivoted it to go into a different model which is more of like a vending machine model um I think that they're implementing the actual vending machine in a couple days but right now you just go to coin powers and um you're purchasing the coins at a fixed rate and that seems to be uh a little bit more understandable for the average user and

so what was the motivation for initially having the sort of uh proportionate donation model where you get so many coins depending on how many donations are given that day you know we all saw what happened with maidsafe and Maids safe had a lot of different problems so um we thought that that would kind of uh deal with the issue so that was it was Adam's idea but um I think it would work for bull like I think it would work for a different type of coin um but because T down aoin was so new I think it was just it just didn't really match what we were trying to do I I certainly think think that they're going to make that available for other kinds of coins um but just it didn't really work for my

model yeah I'm I'm curious as well cuz it seems to me sort of from an economic perspective what this incentivizes if you have this you know a fixed number of coins per day you know it incentivizes people actually I saw somewhere Adam pointed out in a comment like the optimal strategy is to you know donate small amounts each day uh and and you know then hope that you donate on a a day where maybe nobody else donates or something uh but I don't see why that makes any sense like why would you want to incentivize that behavior versus just people donating you know however much they want to give so I I was I was very kind of Beed while this was chosen I

know he's using something similar for LTB coin uh where you know you get sort of like more reward when you comment when no one else is commenting which well I mean that's that the idea that you know we were you know sometimes this stuff it's really like I kind of defer to the guys on it because I'm so unfamiliar you know I don't have any training and and you know trading of coins or any of that stuff I could barely understand Bitcoin now now I'm a lot better with it but you know it's still a learning process for me so I deferred to them and this was an experimental process for everybody um and I just don't think that it that it was really the right move like we liked the idea that people would come back to the page every time but even even my

DieHard Bitcoin uh friends that were fans of Me Mine they didn't they couldn't figure it out they're like I don't like this either so I don't know it just it just didn't end up being the the one for me but I I think the way that we this from the beginning is that it's the first one it's an experiment so um you know that that part of the experiment didn't exactly work for us and and so we changed the model around I have to say one thing I really liked about it when I was reading um through some of the details is the idea that you know once people have the coins you know and and then you offer certain rewards like a dinner with you or you

record a song for them or some of the higher Rewards or or just get the album um so you you essentially get those coins back because you know people buy the rewards from you with the coins and I really like the idea that if you do another crowd from and comparing in the future it is those same coins that you're going to sell again I think that is brilliant and really um really a positive thing because it can give a lot of value also as you know as an enable investment at this stage in sort of your F sucess and you know I think that that we'll definitely be doing uh crowdfunding in the future one of the things that I thought was really cool about the Tatiana coin is that um it's

really just based on how accountable I am to do what I say you know because people donate the money they don't have any guarantee of anything um but it allows me an opportunity to deliver what I say I'm going to And when they see that next album then they're going to say oh okay so this girl didn't just you know take the money and and uh spend it at the casino or something but you know there was like a legitimate use for it and then people can see oh well this is a really great quality product so the next time I go back to them they're going to have the experience where they say oh well this girl did what she did last time let's give her a little bit more and and see what happens next and in general that approach you know the

coining of of I guess people's creative content uh this kind of holds people to a different standard and it incentivizes people in a different way you know um when people go to their day jobs there's all sorts of motivation going on and lack of motivation and that's why a lot of people mess around at work doing nothing but if you think about just how people will look at work in the future if it's really truly based on on their output and people will judge whether or not you know the value of their coin will go up or down based on how well they do so I think that there's a whole different motivation for people being built into this um this thought process I guess yeah I totally agree I think so um I think where that also comes into play is you know if you do a future

crowdfunding campaign uh nothing commits you except your word and promise now that you'll again sell taana coins versus like creating another coin so I think that kind of plac to that as well yes I mean there's also a few other Concepts that I want to explore with the Tatiana coin for example I have a a talent agency called uh samide entertainment and it has about I don't know 70 different speakers um musicians Educators comedians that are all kind of Liberty oriented um and a lot of those activists have a hard time raising money for their projects so I wonder if there wouldn't be a way where we could create a coin that would be compensating each

of them based on how many people like what they're doing versus another person on it so it would be almost like a like a label for uh activists and then I'd like to explore the concept with making an actual record label because I used to work in a lot of really really nice recording studios in New York and I became extremely frustrated with the music industry it was completely unfair the people who got the budgets in order to record were usually I don't know like their music isn't very good and it would really depressed me because I think that you know the music is the expression of the people the most sacred thing that I contribute in the world is is music so I have high standards for what I expect people to be putting out into the world and the people that had really good

messages in their music were not given the access that you know the the major label supported artists were so I kind of want to help break up that strangle hold which has been a bit of a process Within the Music Industry for the past 10 years the music industry has changed so much um so I think that you know you have Indiegogo and you have Kickstarter and those are working somewhat but I think that they've jumped the shark a little bit and also if you give me let's say $25 for an Indiegogo campaign and you get my t-shirt well what if you don't like that t-shirt what if it doesn't fit you right or what if you want a girly t-shirt you guys probably don't but you know these are simp things that kind of come up when people make these donations and you're stuck with

the prize and then after you make your donation that's pretty much the end of your relationship with the person that you donated to now with a Tatiana coin you have the incentive to go along on that Journey with me give me real life feedback as my fans and as my backers from the very beginning and you have a vested interest in seeing me succeed because then you can transfer your coins to somebody else and maybe get your money back or make a little bit of money off of it or you can have a really cool present for your fan um you know for your friend who's my fan or something so I think it's it's uh it's interesting to see the different possibilities and this is literally the first step so it's it's fun to be on on the front end I think that the one thing that

really transpires in your campaign in you know in contrast to Indiegogo or Kickstarter whatever is really that you know building that lasting relationship with your fan whereas in with a Kickstarter campaign you're uh you're trying to fund one specific thing and then once you're done with that I mean you you move on to something else or you create another campaign or what what have you but with this new kind of uh coin model that you've uh created for artists uh when being the first artist to to uh to try this you're really trying to create this kind of long lasting relationship so moving forward do you think that this is a model that other artists can Embrace or you think it's too early right now like how do you see this moving forward well you know um I think that this is definitely

something that I would like to make available to artists everywhere right I mean that would be the the best ideas is to to make it universally acceptable but the problem is is that even with my knowledge of Bitcoin which is vest Superior to anybody in the music industry that I know it was still very difficult so I think that there's a need for Consulting and I think that there's a need for help and in order to get those things you need a certain amount of money which sort of defeats the purpose of of making the coin in the first place to a certain extent what I was thinking would be cool is to make it as a record label so I could pick out for example artists that I like and that I think will will do really well we raise their funds based on how much they

raise and then you know the label will offer that Consulting and we'll offer regular recording label Services as well so I think that that might be a bit of a better model and then what I was thinking was maybe we could even franchise the the coin label model so I obviously I'm not sign you know 500 artists but if you had five artists that you liked and I already came up with a system that really worked well maybe other people could model their uh record label after my model and then create all these little mini coins labels but I mean that's that's definitely a little a little ways away but I I think that things move so quickly within this space um some of my next steps are going to be

to start reaching out to people in the music industry you know I have a lot of experience in that regard and I have a lot of friends um and slowly but surely people definitely seem to be coming around so um but it's it's still a little bit away yeah but it's you know what you mentioned is is interesting you know the the ease of use I guess or the the the ability to be able to create your coin and and being able to do it simply and and and easily um you know you're using coin Powers uh which is a crowdfunding platform which allows you to create your own coin and and you can choose whether you use counterparty or color coins or Master coin and maybe you can weigh in on this wendle um you know these platforms are kind of enablers which I

mean essentially now anybody can just create their coin so if like whatever band wants to create their coin they can do it quite easily so you aside from having these platforms um uh crop up you know like we've seen swarm and others what else needs to happen in order for this to kind of take take off well okay so I I think we should kind of back up a little bit and make sure we're clear about what exactly this is because you know these things that we're talking about that are uh you know being created and traded on coin powers and you know swarm uh soon I suppose uh you know these are user created assets right these are these are these are not native coins they're not native cryptocurrency so it's not like a

competitor to bitcoin or something like this this is actually something that rides on top of it and as a result of like the complexity that is involved there um the tools are all extremely young uh there aren't a lot of really good ones right now you know like the reason I think a lot of people are basing what they're doing on counterparty and counterwallet right now is because they actually had probably the best user experience and as far as I can tell they have the most complete set of tools but they're still not really easy to use and you know the whole process right now of creating a new user created asset is a bit I would say bewildering so you know obviously we need better tools to do this we need you know more unified processes we need people to be able to understand what it

is that they're doing when they go in there and create one of those things uh and you know what it really means to have something that that you know quote rides on top of the Bitcoin blockchain uh you know we're I think we're we're we're really kind of uh surprisingly close though even though you know where we are right now is almost just out the gate uh it's amazing how much this this side of the the equation is really developing and you know as I've said I think I I maybe mentioned this on a previous podcast with you guys you know I I actually personally believe that this is like the killer application for cryptocurrency so-called cryptocurrency I think it's mostly in these kinds of user created assets and what those are right you know is something in my opinion much more akin to stock than a

currency um you know to to some earlier points that uh Tatiana made if you think about what you know the artist coin really is right it's an opportunity to buy into an artist it's an opportunity for you to basically say I believe in this person and I want to support this person so I will give this token that we have created some value and you know I guess if you think about the kickstarter model in the past and things like that you know I mean you know every every time I've ever spoken to someone that has actually done a campaign there you know people always say you know they hate this rewards thing the rewards thing is the biggest pain in the ass because you basically have to come up with some stuff that you really don't necessarily want to do and maybe some cases you do but it's just

extra work that's really sort of a distraction from the thing that you you're trying to do and as satiana said you know sometimes well probably more times than than not it's actually you know it's not really what people want there's not like a super satisfactory experience from that etc etc you know if you look at something like Oculus Rift it's a little bit of a different story Oculus riff was this you know virtual reality helmet that Facebook recently acquired for $2.5 billion and they you know crowdfunded and raised $2.5 million on that platform and you can sort of imagine that those people feel even though they didn't sign up for you know an equity deal that wasn't part of the deal they may feel a little bit jipped on that you know they didn't have an opportunity to take an ownership stake in that and what these user

created assets do is they change all of that so you know I me it's a it's a roundabout way of actually you know kind of saying when I was trying to get out the first place which is you know I think that as these tools come into more mature uh this is going to be seen as you know more or less the obvious obvious killer application for Bitcoin in my opinion much more obvious than even currency and you know this is going to this is the thing that you know to use the faded words will change the world because it gives this opportunity of raising money to anyone anywhere in the world and I should put money in quotation marks but you get my point but you still need I couldn't agree more yeah you you need U I'm I'm so of course you need Bitcoin to

do this right need Bitcoin to buy Tatiana coin Etc so do you think Wendell that uh wanting to participate in these kind of crowd sales is going to be the thing that incentivizes people you know that's going to drive Bon adoption or do you think for a large part it will kind of lack you know it will be it will come with Bitcoin adoption so that you know they I mean tatiano you have a very Bitcoin specific audience or a lot of fans in the Bitcoin world but an artist who doesn't it's going to be much more difficult no that was what I was that's why I saw a need for a label but I really agree with uh with Wendell in

terms of this being the future one of the reasons why I was so picky with you know how I wanted to approach the coin from the beginning picking my team making sure that everybody was cool was because you know it is it is such a challenging process and um and I would really like to be building a model that people could could use for example making Regional cryptocurrencies uh I was talking with somebody in Washington state about that I mean I think that the applications for this are just unbelievable so I I I'm more interested in in changing the world not just because I made an artist coin but because I could help create funding for all different kinds of projects that I think are really incredible look at out the women's Annex you know they're trying to raise money and I met with

fesa the other day and she I I'm trying to get her to get a coin but she's really into it but I mean that kind of an organization would benefit greatly because now the donors get something back for the money that they're that they're given I mean charitable coins in general I think could really benefit from this in addition to I mean countless other applications so I really I really strongly agree with that and I mean the interesting thing about this is of course you know I guess to answer your question uh Brian I mean I believe it will drive this adoption of Bitcoin I believe this will be the reason to get Bitcoin uh you know as I've kind of I guess you know matured or regressed or whatever you want to call it in in this ecosystem I guess I more or less come to

the perspective that Bitcoin is super useful for a couple of things like sending large amounts of value pretty much anywhere uh and it's also really useful for this and I I think that you know it's not so useful as a day-to-day currency given the fluctuations and given the you know the crazy the crazy value change that is you know it's if you're just going to use it to go buy a cup of coffee it's a little bit more frustrating than it is if you're going to send you know $20,000 to to Russia or something like that um so yeah I believe this will actually drive uh Bitcoin adoption for people to get Bitcoin and the nice thing about it is there's already such a you know a reasonably large siiz pool of you know quote unquote value in the network that this to me seems like you know it's it's

really already ready to go it's uh you know if if this is the killer app then I think we have enough to get started yeah and I think that you know this kind of touches on what I was mentioning earlier where if you if you compared to the internet you know you have tcpip which is just the underlying layer and then you have all these other apps on top of it most people don't even know what the hell is tcpip is and how do you how how it works and and what it actually is doing for them in the background but they do have this underlying layer of technology which is enabling this traffic to transmit over the internet and I agree with you Wendell I think that adoption is going to be um adoption will occur at the top layers and not so much at the bottom

layers where it's happening now you know with all these Bitcoin enthusiasts and these guys that are kind of you know technically Savvy and know how to get around and use an exchange and have the patience and and and and the you know to to actually purchase Bitcoin whereas uh moving forward I think we'll we'll have this adoption sort of at the top layers like you mentioned you know using these crowdfunding platforms Etc yeah I think that's a that's a really awesome way to look at it and I had actually modeled it that way myself but I think I'll start to say to say exactly that I mean that makes a lot of sense I mean uh you know as a again as a day-to-day token I think that Bitcoin has a lot of advantage and disadvantages but I think the disadvantages for the average person who right now is

perfectly happy using you know debit credit cards and that system to you know make day-to-day payments I mean that's that's more than sufficient and I believe that they wouldn't really understand the The Wider advantages so yeah if it happens at the top layers then it's probably going to happen in in some form or fashion like this I think we talked last time I don't remember if we mentioned this on this call or not but we also talked about this idea of like you know a Fiat back token something like that could pop up you know who knows but I think the the of Bitcoin as quote the world's currency is is less likely than Bitcoin as the underlying token layer uh that all this other stuff ends up writing on you know and it probably will be other things too I mean not just Bitcoin but these you

know these blockchain Technologies generally Tatiana just going back to uh Tatiana coin um I want to ask why did you uh choose to go with counterparty and not some of the other protocols um well you know what I mean I felt like there was maybe a little less organization um in some of the other companies and um counterparty just seemed really solid like there were no frills there was nothing fancy they didn't have a budget but their stuff worked and at the end of the day I just wanted something that that really worked and and was going to be you know functional and and it just seemed like the easiest one to use and I really liked the guys over there you know they were not um you know fan yeah they didn't have like a lot of bells and

whistles they seem like a little bit like the underdog I like the under Underdog generally but um aside from that uh emotional appeal or whatever I I thought that they had the superior product and that was the reviews that I was getting from other people as well uh what were some of the challenges you ran into and the problems you had in the process well even understanding it first place you know just understanding the concept was was a little bit tricky um it's a very intimidating process you know because unless you already have a good understanding about how these things work uh even from you know like a like an altcoin perspective um but let me think uh yeah I mean just just

knowing how to approach things and making the right decision was very stressful because I I wanted it to be really good and I wanted it to be a huge success and I most of all wanted it to be something that that would um just I don't know that was done the right way that was really important to me so all along that was that was a little bit tricky just to make sure because you know this is such an Uncharted Territory nobody really knew exactly how to approach it but luckily the people that I chose to align myself with uh you know my team Lisa changen and um and Adam Lavine and and Amos they were all really supportive and really patient and um you know also there were a lot of unforeseen technical things that came up which as a

person that doesn't have an experience in that in that realm I didn't realize that that was even a possibility so when those uh issues started coming up I was really taking it back because I thought that we were going to do things on this timeline and then things end up sometimes taking a little bit longer than you expect them too um so I don't know I'm not the most patient person so I would say that that was definitely a little bit tricky for me and are there any other functional Alternatives right now like could you do this with uh with mastercoin or counterparty for instance or um color coins yeah I mean we definitely could and I'm not even you know I would like to try out some of the platforms as well um but you know I have Tatiana coin right now the Bitcoin

magazine job is um taking up a lot of my time so there's only enough time in the day to try and create another platform I mean I know that people have been really happy with with the other platforms as well but I just happen to be um you know starting out with counterparty can you talk a bit more about the the record label and how exactly that would work would it eventually be something like coin powers for arst or can you go more in detail um yeah sure I mean this is a relatively new idea and it's built on a few different things so for me what's been really important with my activism uh when it was talking about Ron Paul or Liberty or Anarchy or um or Bitcoin I really want

to make things really accessible for people so the way that I got um you know the way that I got this idea was when I was working in the recording studios there would be all this downtime and nobody would be in the studios and I found it really frustrated me because you know the electricity is on and there's all these unpaid interns there you know cleaning the trash which I'm pretty sure they didn't want to go to school to be trash cleaners but whatever and it was really frustrating because I felt like there were a lot of learning opportunities Miss and they were really great artists so I started this video series called one shot one takes and that ended up sort of spiraling into and it was basically like a video series where artists would come in they'd get one shot one take we'd do a video um of

them performing live we would show the engineer showing different tips and tricks for people to use at home uh so the interns were getting a training and then we would create video footage of the training so we could almost be sharing that knowledge with other people because in the engineering world you know they have like their own fans if you're a rockar engineer you know there's a whole bunch of aspiring Engineers that want to know your tips so uh the problem was that my my boss he didn't really like the idea and also in order to really capitalize on the artist we would really have to have a label because if I wanted to out a compilation you know I'd have to be getting from everybody and when I found out about the and in general like I just thought that there was so much

interesting stuff happening in the recording studio um just an interesting backstory to everybody so when I started doing the Tatiana coin and I started thinking of applying it to a record label I was really imposing it onto a previous plan that I had which would be to change the recording studio model right now in a record in a studio all you have is people who are engineering and that's pretty much it right but what about a record company you know back in the olden days record companies used to have their own recording studios so as to save costs and I thought that you could B basically make a more well-rounded One-Stop model for um for musicians if you Incorporated some crypto into it and I don't know exactly what that would look like but what I would like to do is show video and make

almost like a reality show I know reality shows are horrible but just showing how cryptocurrency plays into the music world while also experimenting with this new record label model I just thought that all those things were really complimentary to one another and um you know you could potentially raise money and have people voting for artists uh with the with their coins or if you made like a label coin then they could do that so um I know that's not maybe the most uh thorough explanation but that's sort of an overall view as to how I wanted to to make it work so uh Tatiana I actually think that this idea could be could be done now I mean it's something where it's like I would say sooner rather than later uh in general you know if you wanted right now to create a record label uh that

actually you know was based around crypto tokens you could basically you know issue a new uh user created asset on counterparty or or something like this you could basically sell that out to stakeholders explaining the vision and you could issue unique tokens for not only every artist but you know every project that the artist is involved in with counterparty it's possible for example to issue dividends and you can issue those dividends in other tokens so for example if I wanted to uh create a record label that was based around this crypto token I would issue that token I would sell it off to people giving myself some initial startup capital I would uh at that point uh you know bring some artists in you know spending some of that Capital as necessary to kind of

fund all this stuff issue tokens unique tokens for each of those artists which also then by the way could you know have their own sort of mini crowd sale or IPO uh at that point all the projects that that person does would also be a unique token so the arti the artist basically has its own token or her own token and then the project has its own token as well and you follow the same process with each one now what happens here is that basically you can have dividend Flowback into the main company so that basically anyone that is holding the tokens of either well first of all the artist would actually have some tokens of the the project and the label would have some tokens not only of the project but also of the artist and whoever's

holding the record label itself uh you know would be able to be eligible for those dividends I mean this model works as far as I can tell it works right now we could actually do that in counterparty it's just a matter of organizing it telling the story correctly and getting it going so Tatiana if you wanted to you could totally do this I mean I would say it would be an amazing next step for you in fact well that was something that I that I uh put into the um into the original crowdfunding camp campaign and actually later I think tomorrow or today later today I'm going to meet with Adam from counterparty and we're going to talk about it at the studio um we didn't know how much interest there was going to be in the Tatiana coin right so in order to

do a label the way that I would really want to do it and partner with a studio you have to actually have people that you pay to work there because I can't do it I have a job at Bitcoin magazine I'm touring musician I'm recording my own music and stuff so there's just so many hours in the day in order to get that going I need um resources and that's definitely like something I'm planning on doing within the next 3 months I really want to start getting that going but it's just there's only so many hours in the day and that's what it that's one of the main challenges that I face I'm sure all of us here do uh is just there's so many great ideas and just not enough money or time to do them all at the same time but that's certainly

something that you know I'd be happy to talk about more and and explore with you guys and I don't know I mean I think this is I think of this as a bit of a group project um because we're all going into the unknown so that's something um you know I I used to work at a studio in Manhattan I've been thinking of approaching my old boss uh to talk about this but I think that there may be other Studios that are more suited to this that we could potentially partner with um so yeah it's definitely on the agenda and if you have any feedback on that I'd be happy to obviously um be thrilled to to get any kind of feedback on that well I I think that I think interesting thing is I mean you know you already have an artist coin right so you don't need to

you don't need to reissue an artist coin but I think that the process cess that would be most effective is to kind of do it in the hierarch hierarchical structure that I just mentioned right so you know you start with the label uh you move towards the artists and then you know you start to do the projects individually underneath them um you already have the artist the first artist coin so you know naturally you could just like basically fit into that by having the label that is created acquire a sufficient number of your tokens so that it has you know dividend rights to anything that you create and so on I mean it could all fit together I understand that you of course we're all super busy but uh you know it's a pretty exciting concept yeah and I think that I'm I'm uniquely I have a very unique

position because of my previous experience in the in the studio industry and I'm one of the seven people in the music industry that even knows about Bitcoin or even thinks of using it one of the challenges that I had was you know I have those friends and stuff and they were just they just didn't get it you know um and they couldn't get their higher ups to get it so what I was waiting to see was what's going to happen with paana coin and how is this going to do because if we uh could show a proven success in that then that would be a much easier explanation point I mean these aren't Forward Thinking folks and I am going to need help from some people uh in order to do it the way that I would want to do it and I have access

to some of those people they just don't get it yet so that's on the that's on the agenda and um also what do you guys think about this like do you think that one of the things that I felt with Tatiana coin that was difficult was you know people that don't know about Bitcoin really didn't feel like it was easy to participate because now they had to first they had to go out and find Bitcoins which is terrifying for people um and the easiest way to do it is coinbase and you couldn't send it from coinbase to coin Powers because the address wouldn't show up so you'd have to go from coinbase and then send the coins to either your counter wallet which you'd have to set up and then you you know what I'm saying like this is miserable so I think that there's a

little bit of a more streamlined process necessary in order to start tapping into like my fans know about Bitcoin but my friend Megan Wright She's an incredible artist is her fans don't know anything about Bitcoin so how are they going to get involved in that process but I think that your solution with creating the label first before finding the artists May um circumvent that problem at least a little bit yeah I mean that's that's definitely uh a big challenge I mean I think that's just a challenge we face in so many areas of Bitcoin and uh really a big part of it is usability another part of it is education I I just want to throw in I guess one thing which maybe a bit of a boring aspect I I feel like one big challenge I mean I agree with wendle

that this is a is a super interesting approach but I guess one big challenge you'd run into is probably the legal side cuz I know I think the Swarm I mean it's really quite similar to what swarm guys want to do um with having this top down swarm coins and then having projects underneath that issue their own tokens and they they pay back to the Swarm coin holders and uh I think from my understanding is that they they can't really do this as a sort of profit sharing dividend model because they feel that's illegal uh or you know that's very very problematic so that they have to do actually similar to what you're

doing where you're getting a reward you know you get a CD or a dinner or something like that but that it kind of comes away from that Financial investment uh angle but of course that Financial investment angle is really kind of the most interesting side of it so it's definitely a challenge hopefully we will get solved in some way or maybe someone just has to do it uh of course if someone just goes ahead and and does it preferably they don't have a a local Studio where they can get arrested in yeah I mean you know touching on what we were talking about earlier uh I think that the the underlying problem is you know interaction with Fiat you know so

if if it's if it's difficult for people to go out and buy you know get the Bitcoins like you were saying Tatiana uh on on coin uh on coinbase and then transfer them to a wallet and and such you know the uh the initial issue with the real problem for most people I think is just acquiring Bitcoin and this is where there needs to be a lot more fluidity once you have Bitcoin you're fine you know you can invest in user created asset assets uh you can pretty much do what you what you like but it's really just acquiring them and uh you know if we look at you know these kind of um absurd papers by the European banking Authority not to go back on that but uh this kind of thing isn't going to

make things easier obviously um we need to fluidify you know the transfer of uh Fiat to bitcoin or just all out you start paying people in crypto you know so we need people to take initiative and companies to take initiative and start saying okay well I can I can pay my employees in cryptocurrency or part of their salary in cryptocurrency for instance I don't know what you guys think about that I mean that that's going to happen but it's a very very slow process so if you want to have I mean absolutely you know if you want to have fast adoption Etc the intersection of Fiat and crypto and and some integration in the financial system is really essential I mean that really is the thing that has the potential of

getting like really fast results and I think the other thing is going to happen too when that's not possible it will just be much much slower and it will have to will have to basically build up an an whole separate system uh and I think it will work as well you know I I don't have doubts that in the end you know no cryptocurrency and this whole approach we're pursuing here is going to Prevail but I think it'll have a very big effect on the speed at which it happens one of the things that I thought like that I was uh you know thought was really important about the artist coin was a couple things number one it avoided because it was an artist coin people were already familiar with

and it kind of avoided the the legal implications of doing something where you have dividends and all that because then that becomes something where you you maybe you're breaking the law and you don't even know it but in terms of mass adoption I think that having an artist coin is really helpful because people don't they're scared of Bitcoin but they're not that scared of artists in general and they're always looking at anytime an artist do something new they're like oh this is exciting and new and they like that so I think that it was less about me as an artist than just the artist Concept in the first place and I think that artists are generally taste makers and they can bring about Mass adoption so it's almost like a little bit of a chicken or the egg thing but I think as these um you know I I I

I'm curious if uh if Amos is going to take uh Fiat at any at coin Powers you know now coin Powers is going to have a wallet on there starting tomorrow so that's going to help make it a little bit easier but I think that that really would have been the easiest thing is if people were able to buy into Tatiana using their credit card um but that just that's just we're we're not quite there yet you know I I think if he to offer something like that I mean he's going to put himself in a lot of risk um you know that's that's one of the situations where he'd end up having to open a bank account I'm not sure if he's even Incorporated um you know this is uh the interesting thing about this kind of stuff right is that you know as uh as as

Brian was saying like kind of once you're in you're in you know once you have uh Bitcoin you can kind of easily exchange it for others and there's no big deal it's like it doesn't you know the the the crowd sales stuff doesn't have the the choke point really that you know getting Bitcoin actually does in the first place so you know that's that's the kind of the challenge we're dealing with basically the same problem we've had for for a couple of years now you know which is just getting these things in the first place but once you're in you're in so indeed it seems that you know once we come over this fairly massive hurdle of just having general adoption of this thing as a concept you know all this other stuff can really really start to happen but until that point it is unfortunately

going to I think be quite Niche but I believe that these new use cases will start to drive people towards the adoption of it yeah no totally so um people want to participate in the Tatiana coin fundraiser it's still going on for a while right so where can they check it out or um you know donate um they can go or purchase some coin I don't know what terminology uh is appropriate um if they can go to coin powers.com and my in my uh campaign is right there on the front page or they can go to Tatian coin.com I'm actually going to be updating that website in the next couple days so there'll be some new information and some new blogging and stuff like that but but a lot of info on there is is um is pretty accurate so

people can go on there I just want to kind of update people on the on the new format of the campaign but otherwise everything is up there so people can donate very easily and progressively more easily as time goes on and when is it ending um in 15 days but I think what we're going to do is just keep the coins on sale after that point so anytime anybody finds out about it they can they can participate because that was one of the challenges with the 30-day campaign was that it didn't give people enough time for that information to sink in and there wasn't this really huge it wasn't like some of these other coins where there was an incentive to purchase because oh you make all this money and you could sell it a week later

I mean that's not what this is so um so it's a certain type of person that's interested in this project I think they're more the idealistic people that are interested in this project versus um you know just like the straight up money guys so we think that you know I'm I'm on tour constantly you know so if I'm going around telling people about it I want to continue to tell people about it so that's that's kind of how we're gonna we're going to approach it going forward I I think um that's that's cool so you basically have you know you have to 3 million tatana coins and you can just keep selling those until I guess you sold all of them well we already sold 1.5 million of them because of the first half of the campaign we wanted to honor 1.5 left and uh you are you going

to adjust the price at you that is a question yeah I think I think that pretty much the flexibility is there to do whatever um whatever you really want with it I just want to make sure that whatever I'm doing is ethical I don't know I just I don't want to do anything shady and I think that sometimes with crypto stuff it's not the you know it's not all roses and sunshine so I wanted to make sure that whatever I do is is uh is makes people feel comfortable and they feel like they understand it because whenever people don't understand something they're very very suspicious so I want to make it as open and and you know that's why if I'm if I misspeak about things I think that makes people feel a little bit more comfortable that at least I'm willing to acknowledge if I

make a mistake or something because then they feel like oh okay this is a real person and not some Shyer yeah no totally so Tatiana um I just want to ask you about briefly the uh women's crypto Association that you're involved then can you just kind of explain to us in a few minutes how uh what what this project is and uh what you're trying to accomplish um yeah sure uh basically um we have a women's crypto Association it's different from crypto women uh worldwide which is an organization I'm also a fan of but what my organization does is we pick kind of like the industry thought leaders um women uh I know that Andreas is going to be supporting us and a few of the guys you know we don't want it to be only women but it is women focused and we think

that uh women can offer a different perspective into Bitcoin I think we're very valuable in terms of helping with mass adoption um anytime I try and explain to a girl about Bitcoin she totally gets it and anytime a guy tries to explain it to us it's like a little bit more challenging there's just something in the communication um so I want to make sure that women's voices are being represented and um and yeah basically you know we also have like a venture division so uh if women want to learn more about how to pitch their ideas they have a little bit more of a welcoming environment we do have one of the women on our board has her own organization which is a women ADV Venture finance and um so hopefully there'll be opportunities for women to pitch and I think you know we just want to make sure

that for example um there's an event I think the Chicago event maybe it's not Chicago I shouldn't say which event but there was an event recently where 48 of the 50 speakers were men I mean come on that's just a little ridiculous and we're not looking for anything special we most of the women on the board have said several times we don't want to be some whiny give us something special um feminist organization we're feminists but in the way that we would expect anybody to be treated equally and we identify with the um feminine cuz we're girls but um and there are certain issues that we find uh particularly interesting to us but we're just about equality in general and for a bigger diversity in the space and we're not here to brow be anybody into it but we

hope that by um organizing we can kind of have a better um more influence on there and we have a lot of wonderful women on there um you know Elizabeth plet from the Bitcoin Foundation Connie grippy from bitg um elely is our Venture Capital Angela Keaton from anti-war Pamela Morgan from empowered law Emily vaugh who recently joined um bitpay and then Lisa Chang who helped with the Tatiana coin um who also does coin Consulting so um that's that's kind of what our focus is and uh we hope that we'll be able to make an impact Tatiana can I just great can I can I ask one question I I this is actually really interesting that you bring this up because I was sitting at lunch U with someone recently and kind of asked the same question like why is it why is it that we don't have more women in this

space and uh you know the the closest answer that I could possibly come up with was that like anytime a man explained it to a woman it probably sounded like it's something about gambling you know inadvertently so I I'm actually really curious like what is the distinction you think in the in the explanation that you give uh when you when you speak to women about it versus how men speak to women about about this subject because this would be really this is I don't think anybody's ever talked about this but this be something good to know um I think it's because I have a perfect example I asked a guy at the Toronto conference and by the Toronto conference I was all fired up because I kept hearing about these sleazy guys you know offering women jobs in Bitcoin and then grabbing their butts and then when it becomes apparent that

they're not going to you know get any action all of a sudden the job aler disappears I mean there were so many ter like horrible stories but aside from that I remember in Toronto I asked my friend a question about something in Bitcoin and he answered me like G like you're so stupid how do you not know this and I think that that's very symptomatic of the way that the men are trying to explain it I mean I would sit at a table with a bunch of guys talking about Bitcoin first of all they could care less what I had to say second of all it was just a big party showing oh who was who was more manly who knew more and it wasn't like a shared environment whereas while women can be competitive there's not that intimidating Factor when I explain something to somebody if

I don't know it like to another girl we'll giggle about we'll be like oh okay well you know we'll figure it out and then we ask a question and it's more of a warm and welcoming environment whereas if it's a guy there's just this I don't know there's this just sort of like intimidation with the with the men in the in the space where they don't really think that maybe the way that they're under explaining it isn't that accessible and instead of like they'll get frustrated that the woman isn't understanding and so they'll just you know explain it in in a way that makes us feel stupid and I don't think that that's good um yeah no that's shame I I don't know I think in Berlin like you know I want to meet up here it's you there's always some girls there and there's a also a or there's

also now a women's or I think a m al so like girls evening now so there's like a women's meet up uh in Berlin as well now so that that's really exciting I think there were like 14 people last time yeah um but yeah hopefully I think that's also just something that's going to change right I mean I'm sure if you looked at the internet in 1993 or something it was like all M or in a lot of tech areas it's you know it's just very male dominated and I think over time that kind of changed and I think the same thing is going to happen with Bitcoin yeah I mean this is a problem that has been reported in in male dominated Industries um for for years you know especially in the tech space and um I just I think that there's a

there's a better way around that and um and we hope to kind of explore that and it's always a little bit difficult to kind of Express the the views of everybody and I don't mean to because everybody has a different association with what the word feminism means or woman means or whatever um but we just want to make it more welcoming environment and um and we think that we could do that through um some of the talks that we lead and um I don't know just you know I mean I think girls like seeing other girls up on up on the stage it's it's kind of simple and it's sort of silly but it's true you know you identify with the person that looks like the most like you and um and so that's what we're trying to kind of circumvent but there are a lot of wonderful women's

organizations that are addressing this issue um there's Miss Bitcoin in Israel and and I you know hope to be involved in all of those organizations because you know I think that there's a number of approaches uh to getting the message out there and and honestly I wonder if the woman's approach wouldn't sometimes work with men as well because what if you're a guy that's not really techsavvy you know I don't know I think that there's something in the psychology of the explanation when it's somebody that isn't threatening you and obviously not physically but you know mentally threatening you in some way um like implied with the social contract or something so so I don't know I think I think that this could be uh something helpful for more than just women and the guys I think sometimes they don't know

how to include the women they're not the most socially Adept people they sit behind computers all day and I don't think that they want to be ex you know excluding anybody so we can help educate them on how how to be um better better at at welcoming people into the space yeah absolutely um so yeah hopefully that will that's something that's going to change and uh I think you know I think it will but I think it's very important that this work is being done perhaps before we uh end today's episode Wendell do you want to give us update on what's been happening with Hive yeah absolutely um well we actually just released a new version of Hive uh which we're calling Hive web it's an

HTML 5 wallet specifically you know kind of targeting the iPhone we started this of course you know a couple of months before Apple has well you know they've apparently announced that uh not not so much an announcement but a but a rule change that you know Bitcoin apps may possibly be okay uh so we started this project before that point so it's it's a it's an HTML 5 wallet uh which we think actually is one of the better ones and it's actually a you know fairly unique in a couple of ways one is that it allows you to do sort of geob based payments which are you know you're standing next to someone you want to pay them something in Bitcoin now normally you'd have to use QR codes or something like this or you know somehow get them the address in this case you turn this

thing on with that we call waggle and waggle basically you know looks out for people who are close by and you just see them in a list you click it and you send Bitcoin right away there's no need to do QR code swapping or any of this kind of stuff uh and additionally it also is the first as far as we know a consumer multiwallet meaning it supports more than one token so it supports Bitcoin and Litecoin right now and we have a bunch more coming the the goal is literally to support all and that's another topic that we can go into later because it needs some explanation but we're trying to be sort of as agnostic as possible so yeah we're really excited about this project and this product being out on the market now and uh you know we'll be actually wrapping that as

well into a native iOS wallet and trying to submit that to the App Store so hopefully that actually gets pushed out pretty soon and we have some other you know pretty cool plans coming down the line but yeah if you haven't checked it out you know please do it's a bip 32 wallet uh you just need to you know basically write down a pass phrase and you can you know Port it to any other bip32 wallet that's out there so you know super friendly super portable and uh you know really to get going so I would encourage anybody that's interested in that kind of stuff to give it a try I really like this uh waggle feature so I just I just created one obviously I'm like alone so I can't really use it but this is really interesting uh so how did you get this

this idea is this something you saw somewhere else or did you just come up with it by yourself uh yeah actually it was you know I saw this in use in h the duala app actually they had a really excellent you know pay someone close by feature which I thought was just you know from a ux perspective just brilliant and uh I thought well we could probably do the same thing and it just so happens of course that you know most of the modern web browsers and mobile web browsers especially uh do allow you to use the location services native to the phone so yeah you know in that case basically we can have a really nice web wallet that basically you know gives you Geo features as well so that that's where that came from that's a really good idea I mean as a ux designer I I really I

really like this um and so I'm I'm on it right now so it's it's really nice I mean it's super simple you sign on you get uh it generates a passphrase right so your passphrase is essentially your login you get a four four digigit pin and then you just have this very simple wallet where it tells you at the top like how many how many Bitcoins you have uh and then I I guess you can add your name and email which probably makes it simpler for you to find someone nearby yeah that's right and we also you know pull from gravitar if you happen to have one of those things right and you know so of course your name and your your your picture appearing in there is really helpful know for waggle purposes though of course if you're standing right next to somebody you obviously

will know who that is awesome and so you're you're thinking of the um uh encapsulating this as an IOS app as well yeah we actually already did it and uh we'll be submitting it pretty soon so you know be on the lookout for that hopefully again you know Apple's rules are always sort of a little bit you know wobbly I I suppose and you know we can't know for sure that they'll accept into the store but this is an easy way for us to do it so we are going to give it a shot and you know if it uh manages to get there I think it'll be a pretty nice pretty nice addition to the to the you know Bitcoin wallet ecosystem on iOS and that's speaking historically as well I think it's one of the better ones awesome I'll be looking forward to that

thanks a lot is there can you tell us anything about hum um is there are there any projects that you can uh talk about yeah I mean there's always there are always projects uh we we are going to be announcing something in just a few days that I think you know people either find utterly horrifying or intensely funny or kind of wonderful I'm not really sure which it does relate to crowd sales uh but you know I don't want to I don't want to reveal anything just yet because we actually kind of have a little bit of a roll out plann for that but uh yeah there are some things coming coming down the line it's just you know the stuff we're doing right now is well you know part of it is is like commercial work right which we can't really talk about the other part is our

internal stuff which we're going to be rolling out you know on the as accelerated a schedule as we possibly can but these things these things all take time cool well maybe you can come back on a bit later to tell us about it after you released love too well thanks so much uh for joining us today guys uh it was great you know talking about Tatiana corn and I think this really exciting model and it was great to hear kind of your insights wendle and also about the exciting developments you have with Hive and I look forward to trying out the hive web wallet as well this was really fun guys thank you everybody for for you know weighing in and I don't know I like hearing about human anyway and the highball um so yeah this is great thank you yeah I think I yeah I think the thing to say

though is you know it's it's it's super cool to have these conversations and I think we'll look back on these with just like you know kind of awe and astonishment years from now right because you know this is in such an infancy and I mean right now it seems at least in this I think in this you know Bitcoin 2.0 space especially it seems like so you know weirdly innocent and playful because you know none of us really know what we're doing you know we really have no idea we're just kind of we're just kind of trying things out but I mean I think that the stuff that we're talking about here is really this is really groundbreaking and I believe these things you know at least some of these things will end up being you know more or less like you know uh part of

the story of humanity going forward not to make it too dramatic but I really you know I really feel that way so you know it's an honor to be able to go you know have these conversations frankly yeah a and and astonishment or perhaps even embarrassment definitely embarrassment you like you say things things do evolve quite fast and sometimes I'll listen to one of our first episodes be like what were thinking of course it's path for all of us yeah I'm sure there will be lots of that well uh thanks so much for listening in uh you know we'll be back next week I think there's actually um another episode coming out from the Bitcoin 2014 conference it's going to be our La our last so it'll be uh so Sean Jones uh did some interviews uh with a lot of people in Amsterdam we're still

sifting through that and uh it'll be pretty much just uh centered on regulation so uh look forward to that that's coming out Thursday and and Sean will be on on next so next week's episode on Monday exactly yeah to go kind of in depth into the what's going on in Europe and what this all means so uh thanks so much for listening if you know you can follow us on Twitter at epicenter BTC uh you can also subscribe to your newsletter if you're interested it goes out every Friday and kind of you know analyzes disect what's been going on in the Bitcoin world you can do that at EP bitcoin.com newsletter uh you can also support us by donating which we of course very much

appreciate and you can do that at enter bitcoin.com tips and you know finally if you want to support us a great way is also to leave a review on iTunes which uh helps other people find the show and you know you can let us know what we're doing well and what we can still improve so thanks so much and look forward to being back next week [Music]