EB120 – Maciej Olpinski: Solving The Economic Mismatch Between Content And Attention

Transcript

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hi welcome to episode of bitcoin the show which talks about the technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency revolution my name is semester kuwa mm hey Roy today we are gonna talk too much a old Pinsky who is a media consultant Maya has come up recently with a series of blogs that that present a very unique view into content discovery the scarcity of attention and how block scenes can be used to create open market places for trading money attention and reputation I found while reading through these blogs i founded a really interesting topic and therefore we'd like to talk to him and flesh out his views on what the block chain can enable

but before that let's have somewhat of a background from much mij what's your background hi guys and thanks for having me in show so my background is in the media platforms I worked for Google for many years I started with AdWords then I'd moved to youtube so i was very close to the to the business model and economics of this market places so i was working with advertisers helping them to spend their money more wisely and then with the creators and helping them to kind of maximize their profits from from youtube so i'm quite familiar with how the advertising

business works disease I got a question for you that I mean it's sort of broadly speaking how many people I guess what what is the sort of percentage of youtubers that are actually making money and able to make a living off just YouTube advertising you know like they join the partnership program basically which allows you to monetize your YouTube videos it has a pretty low barrier so it's very easy to to enter the program but to actually make money on selling a attention like selling ads like this pre-roll ads that show before the video if you go into hundreds of thousands millions that's

where we start making real money aside from that if you're smaller you can still strike deals like direct deals with the advertisers and that's maybe a bit more profitable so let's let's go into one of the one of the core concepts of your sinking and I think that is captured by this statement you made in your blog which is the primary scarcity of today's world is attention can you elaborate on that sentence what does it mean yeah so when I was looking at the entire concept because in the block chain in the Bitcoin space there was a lot of thinking about how we can decentralize YouTube how we can be centralized

facebook basically apply the same model that we apply to Bitcoin and try to expand that to the media platforms and and create better monetization options for creators and new business models for content monetization so what I feel like that a lot of this thinking is based on the buyer-seller model which is of course its present Alliance the iTunes motor of the Amazon model where you have buyers and sellers however the Facebook and the Google mother are based on three other scarcities it's like scarcity of attention as if you have users who provide attention to the

platform you have creators who build reputation on the platform provider content you can advertisers who bringing money to the platform basically the scarcity of attention is just one side of this model but the observation is based on the relationship between the amount of content that we have a line and the trajectory the amount of content is all it's basically growing exponentially and the amount of human attention that is able to consume it so when you extrapolate this exponential curve you're seeing that you know in a few years time especially right now when a is are creating content already there will be huge competition for our attention which is fine because we are

limited by our biology with amount of time we have and the amount of Labor our neurons can you know have doing today basically attention is the labor of your neurons viscosity and just do you think we're in a Content bubble does do you think that at some point you know people just stopped producing content because there's so much content to know more value in creating it no I think there's a lot of volume creating I think the competition for your attention trees so the question is how we can align the economics of attention content reputation and money and how you can create marketplaces which allow us to allocate this scarce it is more

efficiently right now we have these marketplaces are controlled by companies like you know google facebook snapchat ready which are intermediaries between these car cities and i have their investors they have people who want to make product from them so they regulate you know that the markets are not really transparent and i think there's a lot of experimentation you can do around that how did the blockchain technologies and you know innovations like a theory bitcoin and I PFS and so on and so forth so the key takeaway from from from this section is that we should tend to think

of media platforms as marketplaces there you know a normal market place and there are many different kinds of there are many different entities participating in a media platform and each entity brings something that is valuable so a user the the thing of value that a user is bringing is just a tension that is this product it depends like it's a every side of the marketplace if you look at and it's not something that was invented by Google or Facebook something that's been going on for many years you know going back to the kind of old institution of patronage you had wealthy business people and you had poor artists

and artists had reputation they were creating stuff so they had different scarcity and you know arts and business were always together celebrities and business you know always close to each other so the this exchange has been always going on you know I just want they want the money and the business people they want reputation they want to be associated with people who who had reputation and you know newspaper business you had the publisher was aggravating attention and building reputation over time and then selling access to these audience via print ads for instance and then Google took this model and Facebook to this model made it

more efficient and the method work at scale and it works pretty well over the years I would say however we are reaching that I what I'm saying is I kinda Deepika vertising and this moment this model is breaking up is basically my observation is that the return on attention in many cases it's quite low for many of the users they are kind of excluded from that they're the least well i would say under the weakest element in this equation is rewarded the little is rewarded yeah so that's why you have unlocks unlock is the response to that you know if my return on your invested

attention is low i'm using our blog and i'm increasing my lieutenant attention cuz I don't have to pay attention to all desires and figure out there all consuming my you know mental resource so I'm just filtering this out you know i would say mayor to add to what you're saying that well a user brings its his attention but i think in a broader scale the user also more more and more as bringing value to conversation around topics so for example like on social media or yeah or the content platforms the user will also bring value to conversations that happen around that content and it's unclear now how that can that can be monetized if there's any value for the user in the conversation

that he brings to a piece of content yeah well i would stay like because you know i'm basically describing now a very idealized model so with the web first started the web wine point all the web of documents this distinction was very clear you had users and you had publishers and then you have advertisers as we are moving towards models like facebook and the creators and the new york both the creator and consumer at the same time you're creating content so we are creator and then you consume in common you're basically consuming countin faces by others and giving them lights and

giving them reputation so you are acting in these two roles and what I think that's gonna happen with the blockchain the models the talking about the user will have would become the advertiser as well you'll have the value and will be investing value because right now the advertisers are the separate category most of the participants are on Facebook for instance are kind of users at creators but they are not really advertised this is the separate category and it's going to change once we have Bitcoin know how to cryptos I think it was the I think it was the periscope CEO that I heard say somewhere that the the user is the content the this is where we're heading towards yeah a user is the content if

you are the middleman who is gathering this data and selling this because for the advertising that the problem with the existing model is that for it to work the platform operators have to collect data because the more data you have the the more return on investment you can provide to the advertisers because you can target ads more efficient so the more day that you have the less you pay for it for ads because you know if I know what you like what your preferences are I can target out more efficiently so this model is unfortunately based on

data collection of course no one's Easter interested in your personal data and you know I've seen that firsthand no one cares what's your name because you know you're only valuable in the aggregate your profile is valuable however from the privacy perspective this what this company's has to have to collect this data and you know its ancestral unsustainable in the long term you know in my view once we hit the kind of exponential curve okay so so so let's let's get into your your models and in your writing you have covered you've actually covered various different models like you have you explained what

what the way how Google works how Facebook works and how these models could be changed so far only the purpose of this conversation I think we should pick like one of these models and see what kind of change is possible right because because that would allow us to anchor into something and and and perhaps we'd like to pick google for it so let's use YouTube for is because it has his creators they create videos you guys also create the content for YouTube and you know this will be good to the example I think okay so so let's use use YouTube now how does content discovery on YouTube work like what is content

discovery and what how does it work so content discovery is like you know basically in the economy does we're now the discovery would be always based on some reputation system so when youtuber if you're using youtube search the discovery will be based on you know how many links you have how many sees you had how many subscribers what kind of tags you have on your video however in the kind of more social way of discovering this will be based on like who are you following which youtubers appeared in each other's show so there are many ways

of discovering content on YouTube so for example in youtube we have we have the users that are selling their attention basically of the content creators and you have the advertisers yeah and we have sort of this link structure like you said right that video is linked to each other the users link to each other by subscribing to to contents so is it the case that this link structure is actually the heart of how YouTube works yeah so yeah now I understand your question so yeah so every social platform and I would say you know even the web with hyperlinks

facebook with likes and YouTube with subscribers test it has its internal model of transactions so you know basically users can subscribe or users can like something or I can hyperlink you know some website from my website and so totally it's a kind of a local reputation system that's that's used for discovery and so my observation is that these are all local kind of link structures that are assigned to a particular platform however when we look at the Bitcoin blockchain and a session like you know blockchains in general the transaction

structure between addresses can be considered like a link structure like we have on these social platforms and this can be used for you know and this the link structure is also used for discovery already so we have this companies like you know kind of latex chalices which are basically parsing the Bitcoin blockchain of course they're doing it is to discover you know fraudulent transactions maybe a fraudulent transactions they want to sell compliance services to the banks whether you consider it whether that's good or bad for Bitcoin you have the reputation system on the blockchain the same way you have a reputation system

and the link structure on YouTube they are just used for different things let's take a short break to talk about the GTECH blockchain contest g-tech the german tech entrepreneurship Center is a new center in Berlin for entrepreneurship and they want to support exciting projects happening in this space that's why they're running a blockchain contest together with all w/e which is one of the largest energy companies in Europe and glow bombas and foundation supporting entrepreneurship you can participate by submitting your idea for your project and win up to fifty thousand dollars in free grant money that's equity for you just take the money and do what you want with it anybody can apply and whether you're an early stage startup and perhaps you just

have an idea a blossoming idea and or you can apply if you've already raised funding and are well on your way to becoming the next multi-billion dollar company and anybody can apply whether you're in Berlin and Siberia in Shanghai or in San Francisco there's no geographical Egyptians and anybody who applies can win up to 12 months free office space in Berlin free mentoring legal support etc of course that's totally optional if you want to stay in Siberia and work on your watching stars you can also do that the application deadline is much 31st so make sure you submit your idea as soon as possible you can learn more about the contest and apply by going to episode a Bitcoin accomplish gtech that's gtec and we hope you'll win we hope you'll make it to

Berlin to collect your money and that we'll get to hang out in person now we would like to thank gtech rwe and columbus for their support of episode of bitcoin so actually let's let's take an example to to clarify it and let's take the exam all of this channel self represent a Bitcoin now i get when i visit a bitcoin way of creating content and and ideally as you saying like we have to think of episode a bitcoin any content creator as the s trying to build its reputation or trying to get trying to communicate to other people that hey here's something that's valuable and followers listen to us

and yeah just like consumed are contained right and the higher reputation we have the more people we be like to follow us and what kind of starts to become important to us is that somebody treats our our video let's let's say we make a video with you and somebody on twitter tweets the this video 10 times so so basically the act of somebody else tweeting that video generates reputation for us because somebody will see his tweet and come to our channel the problem maybe not a problem it's a feature of twitter and it's good to use

these platforms the the problem is that [Music] epicenter bitcoin has many identities online there is youtube at the center bitcoin there is South out epicenter Bitcoin there's itunes epicenter VidCon so all your identities so what I'm arguing my articles is that your content is your content can be copied I can go to your channel and copy your video to my channel and you know it's going to be as valuable you know few people will have you know the same show but what's important is the link structure and the least this link structure is locked within YouTube look within soundcloud blog within itunes so you cannot take

this link structure out with you and you don't control this link structure so all these reputation systems are are locked but at the same time and this is the example i can maybe use to make it more clear you have your tipping address yeah on your [Music] in your description below the video you so you've had your dipping undressed and you are collecting tips so imagine now like you know you will have a commercial break like we have you have this commercial break so somehow you are selling this reputation that you have this very abstract reputation that was built on all these platforms you sell these to advertisers problem do you do it directly you have a deal with them on

somebody's like paying you to reach your audience but this you have to do directly so imagine if you'd use this tipping address and you can like this experiment even on the show that you'll say that now you're set selling 10 seconds slots on your show for like 50 words slots and from the block number X whoever sends you a transaction with the link in up return or you can even use the block changing for public notes now they have a feature when you can touch the note into the transaction and and basically you can start selling your ad space on

the Bitcoin blockchain using a very simple system people can tell you for these slots and the touch links with a message or with a link or whatever they want you to read you can even create a simple auction system where you say that if I receive more than you know 10 offers I will choose the ones with the highest bid or you can use the timestamp as a ranking factor so suddenly you are able and people will have this reputation of you because you know collected by a twitter youtube soundcloud but suddenly will have this Avenue on the Bitcoin blockchain where you can actually start selling people's can start linking to you

on the platform which is not owned and controlled by anyone else I don't know if that maybe gives you a better understanding of what I'm trying to convey here yeah I mean so the idea here is that you would use a Bitcoin address attached to a piece of content in order to send Val you two to that piece of content and what you're saying is that by having it on the bitcoin blockchain regardless of whether your content lives on soundcloud itunes youtube your website or medium or one of these multiple platforms where people produce

content and publish content today the content is attached to a canonical you to a Bitcoin address and that canonical Bitcoin address is where people send what they feel the content is valued at now they actually died they don't even keep your day I would you know you can use the example and that's maybe even a better example of the Genesis block and the Satoshi's kind of address everybody's considering this is owned by Satoshi and if you go to blog tingled info and check this address there's a lot of transactions that are being sent there with public notes and virginity for info and people are advertising

their sites why are they doing this they are doing this because this address this reputation like they know that these people are looking at what's happening at this address and they are basically trying to a you know get exposure to that so imagine now if Satoshi sends a one Satoshi transaction from his address to one of these sites like he lays back the value of this but the Bitcoin value of this transaction would be very long just few Satoshi's couple cents but the economic value in terms of attention and reputation for the site that was the linked by Satoshi you know it's huge so this is

the attention reputation that can be traded in this way ok but so this this this I guess how this works so you you have a way of attaching data to a transaction which only existed but you know info but let's say it's generalizes yeah yeah it's a you can it's like generalizing the protocol and you can see it on the ledger ok yeah yeah anytime any block explorer can read it uh that still lives a side of the content it doesn't exist in the content and as you want to advertise something for instance because just people try to do right with content is that they want to get attention in order to be able to push products and services

for advertising if you do that it still is on a side of the content it doesn't live in the content you still have to go and find it I'm like it's not clear to me how yeah yeah that's valuable for someone trying to publish some sort of message or advertise some service or product yeah what I'm saying is that mmm the discovery yeah like the blockchain becomes maybe it's very slowly and that's not visible to everyone yet but these behaviors show us that young people sending links to Satoshi order if there is a kind of simple ceased coins address and it's being advertised on ready then suddenly people start sending messages you know

sending transactions I'm saying blocking that info because they have this public node feature people are just basically using that what I'm saying that block chain becomes a discover later for content and discovery is everything like you know who owns discovery you know makes money so that's why of course like the web is open but GU blows discovery and Google makes money because like you know everybody's going to google and you know to find websites then so what I'm saying is that by using these addresses and by using identity which is not tied to any particular service and the blockchain identity will be able to send and

receive transactions and these transactions will have some metadata attached to them we can start thinking about the protocols we're basically likes and links and the subscribes are the same kind of you know first-class citizens as volume so the value can be transmitted in the same way you know lights are transmitted and we can the all sorts I know it sounds very abstract because you know all sorts of applications will be built on top well the observation is that you know we can have attention and reputation and value traveling on the same network because right now it's not the case I have sort of an imagination coming and

maybe that maybe that helps clarify or maybe it leads to a different question so so so let's let's take epicenter Bitcoin itself right what episode a Bitcoin like as a rational economic agent wants is is to maximize the views right like how many people are going to see the sound d totality of all the content we have produced over time right now now whenever we release an episode I always see that solution for example goes to LinkedIn and there's a Bitcoin p2p currency group and he posts in on that group that you know this video from us came out now what what

Sebastian has really done is he took like our our the address of her video and created a link to this address of this linkedin group basic mammoth attenuating buffer just as all that automatic tricks yeah just go all right so basically you can think of oh like that you can think of it as a link between these two things now now why do we do it fundamentally we do it because in the hope that perhaps there's some other guy who's who is going to discover our content based on some conversation that happened on that post in LinkedIn yeah right so so this link is kind of a generator for

us yes this link allows us to generate a path a road from which new users can come to our content yes right and and 4 episode a bitcoin is just just not this one link but like for every video we are creating a lot of different links and then we are also linking the videos to each other so say we might you know do a set of videos on say zero all his proofs yes and these videos you not depend on each other so if somebody sees one video then automatic we say in the description that you know see this other video if if you like this one so you know all our content is also linked and all are contained is linked to things

into it happening on Twitter things happening on linkedin things that even Facebook etc yes so in a in a in a winner or in a very rough sense like we are you can imagine it as like spiders trying to build this web yes right and the better where we build the more people can come to us yes right now what what you are saying essentially is that today like we have this link structure not only epicenter Bitcoin but each content creator has this link structure yes but this link structure is owned by the platform maybe Google search or or LinkedIn exactly and that's the most

valuable thing this platform home because you can take out your content and copy it but the only these platforms can see the full picture of this social graph that's being built and unless we can build the alternative which is open and transparent take basically use the existing reputation mobile reputation system and bill in parallel starboard start building something on the transparent public ledger the blockchain weather does the Bitcoin block chain survival blockchain and then we can start replicating that but what we have on the Bitcoin blockchain is that we thought we have the same linking capability maybe

not as scalable as on the centralized platforms but we also have immutability so you can always see what happened and the history cannot be changed and we have value so suddenly links can transmit volume on facebook you know the dollars are on the separate network and the lights are visible but there is no value which is struggling in the system like you know the monetary van there's a reputational value in those attention so what I'm saying is that basically right now epicenter bit code has all these identity within the system like all these identities on all these different platforms and your ability to get monetary value for your work but

basically your ability to exchange reputation and attention for money is limited by what the platform operator allows you because in all YouTube you will be able to do adsense on iTunes you'll be doing subscriptions and so on and so forth but you don't you're limited by that so imagine that you know suddenly turns episode your Bitcoin identity on let's say on etherium and suddenly we can start receiving links around with money on the blockchain and basically on the link structure than you control because

we're focused right now in the kind of the the narrative that we have around content in the block chain spaces that we should own our content what what I'm saying is that we should own the links that are pointing to our account because this is where the value is because all the reputation systems and the discovery models which will be built on top of that will have to be built on top of the link structure because this is this is the reputation system that you have ok it can start to get it so so one of the statements that you made and your blog is that Google bank is essential is the central bank of lakes and yes and when you describe this type of lean structures you basically have several central banks that you have

google + page rank and you have the YouTube and SoundCloud or all these models that we've been talking about what you're saying is as content producers need to own the link the link structure yeah ok well so then they own the link structure but that's still to me there's still a piece missing which is the user interface part right like Google has the search results page Facebook has a feed YouTube has suggested videos or whatever how do you because you can't have one without the other you can't have the link structure without the discovery interface actually you like or can you you can actually you can it's of course like the

only way we've seen this combined was like because when you look at facebook you don't think about like the infrastructure the database the reputation system and the discovery model disorder i combined but you know what the centralization is doing is what's going to be happening is all these components will be unbundled unbundled so once you have to imagine that facebook open like facebook graph is available to you not via an API that just gives you part of the picture it's available so everybody can build so the button so versus buffer can compete with Facebook in providing a

better interface and if buffer provides a battery in for interface they suddenly you know control attention and suddenly they start making money so imagine with Google imagine if everybody would have access to Google's graph of the way and everybody could build a bathroom google so like that block chain we have the full picture like everybody can do the wallet everybody can do the blockchain Explorer what I'm basically saying is that what's like you can take the blockchain explorers analogy and apply this to discovery and future interfaces for future social platforms they will be like blockchain explorers every block cynics like the block explorer we'll

have to give you the same kind of view of the system because they want to provide the objective view of the blockchain but imagine blockchain explorers with various ranking systems so at the end you control your links like you control your wallet but you will use the blockchain Explorer which provides you the best return on your attention and you'll be discovering other content with this other interfaces so suddenly you control the links and you have a marketplace of interfaces I don't know if that's clear now because this because of unbundling you cannot have to interface tie 2d to the link structure yeah it does make more sense

now now the question is these black explorers or content delivery platforms show the objective view of what this length structure is how how do they monetize it's like it's another question so there would let us show the objective view the objective view is owning the bitcoins case like Facebook never shows you the objective view of the Facebook database they always show you kind of the subjective view which is mmm tailored to your preferences on facebook read it shows you different view which is based on some other ranking system and you know snapchat will use different like you know Twitter is objective in a

sense that you know there is the timeline and everything is ordered by time so you have all these ranking systems and all these like they're different in Twitter between Twitter and Facebook essentially is just the interface you know well Jupiter's changing to you Twitter it also has an algorithm now which created yeah yeah yeah sorry but in this system you could have an open market fro for these interfaces you know you own the links you want the new own the underlying the objective layer but the competition is on the subjective thing because you can never look at the entire block chain you can never look at the entire facebook yeah you know the system can be decentralized that we are few months our

central lines you can only look at one thing at a certain time so and we will never be able to go beyond that you know the centralization is the feature of a system but the you can always discover stuff you know through certain interface and that's what the value is like where attention goes the money follows today's magic word is attention ATT en TI om head over let's talk bitcoin calm to sign in enter the magic word and clean your partner will listen [Music] that's kind of kind of recap and like

and kind of summarize or summarize what we have covered because it's important so what you're saying is in any platform let's take the example of Facebook in facebook I have an identity and I have I have content that I have created and this content is linked to other be what other people have have done I don't like if somebody post something and then I I comment on it so you can imagine it as like me creating content that is linked to something that was created by somebody else which links to say a video you to be duplicated by something else somebody else so what all of the web is is essentially what you are saying is is

these links of content and identities from head to each other yes and now what are you saying is there is an objective reality which is the link structure as it is in Facebook's database and then there is a subjective view for each viewer so yes so so facebook owns this has knowledge of what the link structure is of all of this content that it is on its platform is six in its database yeah and then when say let's say session newly joined facebook facebook creates a field for Sebastian yes it is giving like a subjective view into this link structure due to so it's like

it's like you can imagine it like there's the microscopic world and then there's a microscope that allows you to see it so what what is happening is like the microscopic world is like you know this link structure that Facebook owns but not only does it all that link structure but it also owns the microscopes through which you can see that yeah that that link structure on the devices through which you can see that graph of content right and this microscope this discovery model is optimized in a way that the objectivity to keep you engaged in facebook because like if you are engaged in facebook this

is how facebook makes money so it has to be optimizing so if you have a lot of like viral content and it's like people are clicking and sharing stories that are sensational but it's like it keeps them extended interest of Facebook well it's not really into interest of users because the return on attention to getting in this model is lower than it would be in some kind of other model where there is no Facebook in the middle everything is optimized so that you are your attentions optimize do different way ok I know you what are you saying in essence is what if this link structure was on build on Bitcoin you know like all the blockchain probably bitcoin is

maybe not to like not that scalable to build something like that you know i would go even further i would say it's already being kind of built naturally of course and this is what the with chaining analytics companies are doing of course they're kind of at the same time you know maybe destroying the Franj ability of Bitcoin because yeah if you can assign certain identities and see you like you know so there are basically building reputation systems for Bitcoin for compliance reasons of course and then they're starting to banks but if you take a different perspective you could if you could have content in

this like you know links between Bitcoin transactions you could build a discovery model on top of that in which people would own these links all the their identities and they could plug into different interfaces so for instance like for the perspective of the user would be you know I can take my Twitter history and plug into Facebook and applied into you know whatever new social media platform comes up and social media platforms would be essentially interfaces and the barrier to entry would be really low so you just just create a better interface and attract the users so in a way like you know with YouTube like now in the

past everybody could be back knit to broadcast video to millions of people the barrier to entry is huge you type you have to have like kingdom and the equipment and the legal issues you would have to be sorted out right now you can do it on YouTube for free like as we're doing it right now if this involves in a way that I'm seeing this the same will happen to get a google and facebook you will like creating new google operating in facebook if you have the public ledger with all the social transactions on it will be just creating a new interface and everybody can switch immediately

like you can switch a channel on youtube you have a new youtuber who's coming out with a new new content and people can start watching immediately and to you know the cost is negligible so so in this world in this world where there's the the link structure is open and then there are explorers built on top and anybody can build an explorer for cheap what does what the business models look like oh how does the market between advertiser content creator get changed in this model actually take basic principles i'd say that they're the same you know it's like the attention reputation money are our this essential scar cities that have

been with us for centuries just the platform centex the underlying technologies change so say you know bit could make me think about that what essential valuable of money was always the same this abstract value you know we have we had shells then we had no fiat currency we had gold now we have Bitcoin and it all represents the same value but it uses a different medium so essentially this wouldn't change but what would change is that because we have suddenly suddenly have the objective time what the blob chains give us and the centralized platforms don't give us a is the concept of the objective time

right now for instance the time is locked to specific platforms so first as you cannot say who was the first person to link to justin bieber like who discover just when people like Justin Bieber uploaded the video he was always like you know later he was discovered by some talent scouts and you want he got super famous but who was actually the first person to link to Justin Bieber it's impossible to tell because Justin Bieber in his digital identity lived on youtube on facebook or somewhere else on a wordpress blog and you didn't have the objective time with the block chains we can always tell you know who was the first to link to someone to send the

transaction page for something so you can imagine that the some kind of speculative models can emerge like right now you know I'm basically saying that you know speculation is one of the killer apps of Krypton's like people love to speculate people are always speculating and so imagine that if you could speculate you could invest money in someone like you know imagine you to the first person who discovered Justin Bieber so like and you're the first person in that links to him and then he gets big and everybody looks at the blockchain as the canonical reference of you know what happened so suddenly you get you get a lot of

attention for that so you could buy for yourself like attention futures in some artists like subtle you could have like it's already happening this before our talent scouts before scalp scouting for talent you know investing reputation and money to discover future artists so in the same way you could have a system where this is disintermediated and decentralized and you know I'm keeping and it's not kidding anymore you know it looks like TV I'm sending someone a small amount of crypto but not to kind of express some gratitude but I actually like investing in a link that's going to stay there and if they get big the discovery model will emerge in which you

know I will be ranking really high because you know I'm the first in the objective history of time I'm the first person who linked to do that I thought that make sense I know it sounds very abstract but it does make sense theoretically I understand the speculative model behind it however I don't understand what the incentive is if I'm just like me like and I don't Sebastian and I happened to find Justin Bieber and I am i late to him okay I'm perhaps I want people to come to me for other things like consulting you know because that's what I do but like as as I

guess I guess the attention that I would get from being the first to link to justin bieber is not going to serve me as just an individual or as a professional I out of work i would say i would say to certainly love like you know it's happened like it no you Hugh this often with like you know models and singers like no they were discovered by XYZ no first discovered by XYZ you have professionals for doing this for a living of course they don't do it on the blockchain it's or it's all if they do it for a living I I don't discover artists for a living I like music and I may discover an artist and I may want to share that with friends like if I discover an artist if I like and this

has happened before like where I've discovered like this really kind of really cool 70s rock band that nobody knows about and I go around and like tell all my friends about it and I'm all my friends like it and they somehow think that I like I'm they there what what I get from it is the reputation of being someone who likes a good 70s rock music okay but that may serve my ego but it doesn't really serve any economic doesn't I don't have an economic incentive to do that it just serves my ego in this very small circle oh so effects like economically this is what I'm kind of chillin trying to explain here but economically in the context of your social circle your reputation goes

up no he's the guy who was like you know first to discover someone this is what people i would say naturally do like and it's like translating this book page rank if you have an old website like domain that's been there for ages and Google recognizes that you know you can write really high or if you get a link from a really reputable website or you got it in the past you know in certain Google's algorithms this might be considered as a reputational signal which is which is positive so what I'm just saying is that this concept of objective time can be used to create all of all sorts of

interesting models that are not possible right now and this models could be based around speculating about somebody's future like you know if you're buying a cryptocurrency and you're speculating on like first this Bitcoin so you're investing one Bitcoin like you know hundred dollars now and you're expecting that use you know make you know five hundred dollars in couple months so imagine if you would be linking to someone or tipping someone expecting that you know the reputation will go increase in the future so you will not receive direct monetary reward but you will have reputational return on investment

because you can play with all these scarcities let's take a short break and talk about hide me you know setting up a VPN on multiple devices can be complicated say you want to do like three devices and you have ten different exit nodes that you want to configure well that's 30 different configurations that you have to do manually each of those devices OS and that can take a long time hi thought me makes this super easy with their apps so they have apps for Windows Mac OS Android iOS and Windows Phone so you just install the app log in and boom you're ready to use VPN with hide me so this is perfect you're traveling you just install the app on your devices and say you're using public Wi-Fi you turn on the app you connect and you're

completely protected against hacking men in the middle attacks or any type of malicious activity and of course the apps work with their fleet plan to try a different plan had to hide the me / epicenter and includes 2 gigabytes of data which is more than enough to keep you protected when you go traveling it also includes 3 exit nodes in Singapore Amsterdam and Montreal and if you use all your also hiked up me / epicenter it's going to give you thirty five percent off if you ever decide to sign up for a premium account and the premium account includes unlimited data it includes up to five devices connected simultaneously so you can put

your grandmother using a VPN even your dog's tablet you can put on a VPN and you can use any of your exit notes and they've got 30 exit notes all over the world and of course you can pay with Bitcoin so give it a try and we would like to thank height of me for their support of epson a Bitcoin what are we speculating with so if i put i say like a reputational token towards like a new artists that i discover what what is that represent and how how is your scarcity created around that so that i can't just create new ones are we talking about a different currency than bitcoiners is something that's built on top of Bitcoin

in the way that you could see it like are you the blockchain the interesting start seeing the blockchain but i think that hasn't been explored yet is the scarcity of time the blocks just increased one by one and you cannot roll that back so disgusting you have is the kind of reputational scarcity that you know back in time stuck in a well I wish I bought Bitcoin you know back in 2011 so in the same way I wish I was the first guy who kind of like something like this guy or like this meme or like something else so right now there is no discovery bubble in existing

social networks but exploits that I my insight is that there is a lot of interesting models that we could explore here that are not possible on the current paradigm but I understand that it mmm to make it more clear it should be kind of embedded in a really particular application and but the possibilities for applications are with the endless so yeah right like the idea itself is is very interesting but um I somehow feel that like Bitcoin although all the bitcoin is the kind of the perfect thing for having an open link graph because you know you can have data reputation identity and money on

the same network and on the same data structure that the restriction is just isn't scalable like you kid there is such a gross because transactions get added every 10 minutes but it grows very only very slowly and the data structure of information on the web grew so fast because like maybe you know thousands of links are being added per second somehow I feel that there is a mismatch between what the system offers Bitcoin and what you are proposing on the other end yeah just to make things clear I'm not saying this could be built on bitcoin bitcoin is just like the first step in it it shows us that there is an emergent

kind of a reputation system that happens on the blockchain and this is what the blockchain elite is compact companies are actually trying to leverage however if we wanted to build you know Facebook I quit Maggie decentralized Facebook it would have to be built on a more scalable infrastructure and of course we could go into details and I'm not competent enough to kind of deeply explore all the other scenarios and options however innovations like for instance big chain DB really interested what the company called ascribed that io is doing and they're taking a different

approach in terms of the application because they want to do a copy rights management and provenance of artists work on the block chain however the technology they build is really interesting and could be leveraged for something like that on the other hand identity I think the etherium offers you know a lot of very interesting possibilities for building reputational systems on top and these are being built as well so they could be leveraged for these kind of models so I had another question also regarding the evolution of the content model you know you mentioned before that you

know we had the web one point 0 a number 2 point 0 and how things have evolved since then we had publishers and content producers and advertisers and it seems now that what we're moving towards rather than having one canonical source of content where people used to say you know experts used to say your post content to your blog and that's one place where you post the content and then you link to it on different social networks that of course has changed now and content producers level leverage multiple platforms and the content lives where the users are so for example a company like BuzzFeed their website is an experiment is nothing but an experimentation platform and they publish content to Facebook instant articles to medium to just about

everywhere where the content consumers are so it's actually it's omni-channel for content and so there's no longer one canonical place where content can live it lives everywhere it lives in different places in multiple places at once in in this model in this so that the pagerank model sort of in my view that's really compatible with that because PageRank wants there to be one canonical source and this reputation graph that you describe also follows that same type of model where you have one canonical source and you want that one canonical source to be to be highly regarded have high reputation so how is that

compatible with the new paradigm of how the internet and content is now being distributed and published online yeah so yeah I'm not saying that the model i'm currently exploring is gonna it's like either or it's something that's additive it's going to be additional so what you're getting is like you know in addition to your LinkedIn Twitter Instagram or whatever your main social media channel is you are receiving like you have this extra identity which is controlled by you and you can leverage this identity to as I said before you can start selling you know ad slots or for instance you can like only platforms

like snapchat people can start bidding for for your snaps so they can start you can start selling your for instance snapchat reputation but you can do it outside of the snatcher platform and you know you could potentially use like Oracle's we check whether particular photo you know somebody's bidding okay if you post this photo snap Jeff I will tell you one Bitcoin you post the photo snapchat you know the Oracle transfers the Bitcoin and but this creates a record in your reputation so basically you can start building your reputation in addition to all those

social platforms of you are already using and this is how it happened with the like you know the beginnings of YouTube were such that people were uploading you know VHS content to youtube and basically then the you to build its own native content but you know the beginnings were like no you were pulling content from some other platforms and the same thing would happen here it's just an addition Avenue additional avenue that you control and you can build it out and you control the links and the incentive is that you know if this takes off so whoever first whoever is first if this becomes big in the future so whoever is first will be our kind of

satoshi in Bitcoin you know we'll be in the Genesis blog or in the one know in the first blog so they will be getting a lot of attention you know these guys were pioneers you know it so there is a building kind of an incentive mechanism for joining early but the rewards are on a different nature you know their rewards in the future attention and reputation on the platforms that will emerge does it doesn't make more sense now yeah I mean it makes no sense Oh like like personally I've I've never been good at discovering music I cuz I'm a follower when it comes to music um but but I got a lots of blocks for if you want I can

see how much of places where you discover all kinds music yeah but like but like but like recently because the value of the ether went up and I was talking about ether to my friends in say August and the blockchain was released and you know all my friends but back in India is like we are just talking to them ether retail and like now each I went up not only did i make money out of it but what the valuable thing I really made by ether going up is that now suddenly my view counts for a lot more like you know if I if I if I say some some other currencies is useful then my view counts for a lot more it's

it's it's like I told them about something is like I link to content a link to content about ether and because I did it early I am valuable because kind of i discovered ether for my for my friend circle yeah you're like reputations now is probably higher of course there is no record like so it's only like a word of mouth but in your social context in this particular discover his reputation system now you get in you're being rewarded but you're not being rewarded with money you you are me rewarding reputation of course now you can go to them and say look guys now I want to sell you this

and they will say wow yeah I will buy this from you because you're a reputation web app this is exactly what's happening you know on the web every day however it all goes through the middle man so if you are selling ads if you're selling your like commercial breaks and episode to Bitcoin you are either going through a middleman to an ad network or you're doing this directly but there's always a middleman what I'm saying is that what if this could be done in a peer-to-peer fashion that there is no middleman and like the same way I'm liking you on facebook i could sell you value or i could invest in you

or or we could build like you know endless amount of different models based around that so oh very interesting like it it's it slowly starts to make sense it start yeah i know it's you have to digest it yeah well it to me it's it's slowly so you make sense I think I I just have to listen to this in into you again or yet perhaps make more the trick the Mental Trick you have to which is made is recognized it's the same mental Drake whether it was necessary for understanding Bitcoin that value is something more abstract and you don't associate value with a piece of paper you know with a dead politician or a king and the number printed on it it's

not in this value something more abstract this just conveys this one so in the same way you have to think about lights or subscribers or HTTP links they just come there is a medium of exchange but what's being exchanged is something much more Universal its attention and reputation and we had that before the internet and it was always like that and attention mommy reputation and it was always there and we can separate this from the existing platforms and build more kind of abstract models we can we can make a giant attention reputation yeah work or block chain or

local tree basically a giant attention reputation value Merkel tree yes by the attention will be like the way I didn't wanted to go too deep into that but these are different types of scarcity which we reach humans nationally-recognized like people are competing like no with selfies on Instagram everybody's like you on both on Instagram and see what's happening there with teenagers like well you know taking selfies and tagging no there is no money to be made there like directly there is money but it's indirect but what they're collecting is likes and followers so the attention reputation for currencies people want that like because it's a

part of human nature in the same way people want money and people will quickly recognize what's the internal reputation system of the platform and that will optimize for that consciously or subconsciously so so is this like something you're you're you're doing in Syria are you trying to build a proof of concept or you can raise money for it what's the status yeah so what we just talked about is a you know I'm trying to understand and and this is the drawing board stage when I'm trying to actually figure out what are the general principles of the social platform EDA platforms and and of course the next

step is to experiment with proof of concepts and i have several proof of concepts in mind so if anyone is working on projects which are related to monetizing content online but please reach out to me i would love to connect with people working on the same things but for people like you know the applications that are based on this model should be what I'm saying like tinder simple snapchat simple super simple like they should embed these building blocks but for the user we have to experiment it with something which is like really understandable with these principles with these

principles in mind because people will optimize for these principles like like it's happening on snapchat and people who go on snapchat or Instagram they don't think about the economy like you know attention reputation but they intuitively know they get followers they can sell it is valuable they immediately trade like kids are immediately you know you know with venting money they don't know anything about the economy but just it's it's built in the human nature so yeah I'm very interested in experimenting with proof of concepts and once this proof of concepts validate certain of these ideas because these are just kind of certain observations that

have just presented you yeah very possibly maybe a raising money or if this takes off maybe it could be self monetized in a way because this would be getting attention on reputation which could be then salt back immediately so this take something with this will get attention reputation I hope this just doesn't create like a way to monetize being an intent an attention so it was suck No people are just such attention already if you also added monetary its and to do so and it makes it but I I wouldn't it wouldn't be anything new it would be right that's already happening but just on a different infrastructure and in an open and transparent way

because in this system all the money flows are visible like right now you don't know what youtubers are really making you ask me this question so on this platform you will see like you know how much money is flowing where to whom for and for what so this is like you know the facebook app platform which is suddenly visible to everyone what might work took overseas now in this model everybody seein kind of basic decisions from that so where can people find you in your writings yeah so my twitter is mateo Pinsky you know i'm at marshall biscay my website and blog and the mail this is at

the material Pinsky dot com maybe even put it in the show knows because yeah we'll put a name it's like I won't be spelling this no way to get it so if you can put it in the show notes and i'm very interested in connecting with people who are working on similar problems because a lot of work is being done on just on these things right now but however a lot of people are working on the infrastructure like we're interested in the technology aspect and i think that like the media economy aspect sometimes is being like left out a little bit so i'm focusing and focusing solely on that well Masha thanks for joining us today

it was a great conversation and thanks guys i'm looking forward to your next blog post i found them to be incredibly insightful and very well written so thanks a lot for coming on in for the great content so to our list like you for listening we published new episodes of a bit corn every Monday we are part of the let's talk bitcoin network you can find great shows and content about Bitcoin blockchain cryptocurrencies over at let's talk bitcoin calm you can find us on iTunes soundcloud youtube or wherever you get your podcast any podcast catch our app you might have on your phone and you can also send us a tip if you want to do that or tipping address will be in the show description it will not create any types of special

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