EB102 – Flavien Charlon: Openchain, Centralized Digital Assets Without Blockchains or Consensus

Transcript

[Music] this episode of epicenter Bitcoin is brought to you by shapeshift with no account or sign up required it's the easiest way to buy and sell gems counterparty Dogecoin Dash and other leading cryptocurrencies go to shapeshift.io to instantly convert your alt coins and to discover the future of cryptocurrency exchanges and by Ledger makers of The Ledger unplugged NFC Hardware wallet have peace of mind in knowing your private keys are protected by industry standard physical security go to leg wallet.com to learn more and use the

offer code epicenter to get 10% off your first order and by high. me protect yourself against hackers and Safeguard your identity online with a first class VPN go to hide. me/ efficenter and sign up for a free count today hi welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show which talks about the Technologies projects and startups driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency Revolution my name is Sebastian C and my name is Brian fan CR we're here today with Flavia Sho Flavia is one of our recurring guests he's here for the second time we already had him on last August to talk about a coin prism in Flavia has this a great tal of just

putting out project after project after project uh and he's put out the new project which is very interesting it's called open chain and uh we wanted to get him on to talk about that and look forward to catching up so thanks for coming on Flavia yeah thanks for having me yeah we were joking before that you're basically like a machine know like a producing projects cu the first time we had you actually on you already had two projects and I think we only really talked about one of them uh so you already had the prediction Market prediction CH uh and then you had uh collar coins right so you came up with you invented the sort of the I guess most popular C coin protocol open

assets and then you're also doing this exchange or um a wallet col CO's wallet right and the block Explorer so already you had a lot going on back then um I think in French politics they call this ex export exporting of French talents outside of the National boundaries yeah yeah I live in Ireland so I don't live in France anymore but uh still French um so tell us a bit what's this what's the status with those projects how is open accet doing what about the the wallet and and what about your prediction Market yeah so well basically I discovered um Bitcoin I think now more than two years ago um I kind of you know

I've always been passionate about uh prediction markets and uh at the time I wanted to build one as a site project as for a fun project but uh like the the issue you know was like ex accepting payments uh also need you know pay out to users who win the predictions so this was kind of always uh like the the problem with building a prediction market so when I heard about Bitcoin I started to look into it and then the more I looked into it the more I thought I was the perfect uh thing to use for a prediction market so basically I built the prediction Market it's called predicti it still exist today so you can place you know you can place uh money on different predictions you know there's politics economics um you know Oscars uh you know

uh a lot of different things and uh yeah so it works completely with Bitcoin uh so that was you know my first project that's what got me to bitcoin so that was in 2013 uh after that I kind of you know when you start learning about Bitcoin you uh you know some people they get really sucked into it so that happened to me and I started to read a lot about it started to read about all the different projects that that were um happening around Bitcoin and I discovered Coral coins so uh at the time uh that was kind of the first application uh like the first blockchain 2.0 or like you know like the first thing that wasn't currency that that had been described and uh so that was pretty exciting there were you know some people

talking about it at conferences at the time uh but it was kind of early stage so there was no um there was no like product at the time that existed that was just a small group group of people talking about it on forums um and I kind of uh you know had like um a vision of you know like uh having digital assets on the blockchain using the blockchain for transacting um so at the time because there was nothing that existed and uh I felt like this was you know something that that had a good future uh I started to work on uh you know on col coins and basically I kind of designed a protocol um like a new protocol that uh that that didn't exist at the time there was you know just a few drafts of different protocols there were the white

paper as well I think vitalic wrote the white paper uh but nothing was really you know satisfactory for the use cases that I wanted to that I had in mind basically so I developed this open asset so that's the name of the protocol and you know because it's just a protocol uh nobody was really uh uh you know nobody could use it without programming stuff so basically in order to bootstrap the adoption I built this wallet which uh which is called coin prism um and uh so this this is also like the name of the company now so coin prism is basically a wallet uh which is web- based where people can you know send receive uh Bitcoins as well as col coins and they can even create their own

colon coins so it's everything is guided through user interface so it takes a few minutes um and it's pretty easy and um yeah after that we built an API uh which allows people to programmatically interact with col coins uh Mobile Wallet uh I I suppose we talked about that last time uh we talked uh to with I was on your show but yeah like a mobile wallet for Android um a bunch of other things like support for Cold Storage uh and so on and um yeah so and then now uh last week actually uh so we just launched a new uh new product which is called open chain before we get into that I'm curious so what's the kind of Attraction you're seeing with coin prison and open

assets cuz it's seemed like to get be getting you know quite a bit of attention and projects being built on yeah so I mean so open open assets was uh sort of I think the first uh protocol that was sort of usable and had Tools around it that was launched at the time and this Head Start kind of uh was very useful for adoption of open assets and um so initially it was like just you know startups or just a small like Pro like groups of people who were trying to do things and EXP experimenting so we had like the first week after launch we had a crowd sale which was um a hair salon in Australia which wanted to fund raise some money to open a new store so they use coin prison for that was just a

week after launch so that the that kind of small projects um and over time you know as interest picked up on blockchain technology which kind of happened in the past uh yeah in the past uh six to 12 months I would say people started to also pick up interest in uh in open assets uh and just the fact that it was like a simple protocol which was easy to reimplement uh there's no there's no vendor look in pretty much because you know you don't have to use coin prism to use open assets it's like there's plenty of Open Source tools that exist in different languages it's like very wide um so it people started to get interested into that uh also at the time uh when Reddit wanted to make uh Crypton

note uh they actually chose open asset to do that well then after there was some changes in management and they decided they don't want to work with you know cryptocurrency anymore so that kind of fell apart but that was kind of the big project that started to look into it and more recently there was um well there's basically chain.com which is a it's an API provider but they're pivoting heavily towards uh digital assets so they also adopted open assets and uh they they work with uh NASDAQ and uh they basically uh NASDAQ is experimenting now with open assets for their private Market platform so this is this is really as big as it can get uh there's also Overstock which is building their tzo platform uh so they they probably use a mix of technology and

they say they want to be like blockchain ad agnostic in quotes but they're using for the first thing they did they created a crypto bond for uh like a corporate bond for Overstock the company a $5 million Bond and they created it on open assets so you can actually find a transaction on the blockchain uh which has like you know open asset marker and so on which shows the uh the $5 million Bond being transacted uh so you know now it's it's getting picked up by a lot of bigger companies so it's not really something for small companies to play with anymore it's like something with a lot of traction though and so all this all this interest and traction around the open assets protocol is it generating any business for coin prism at all or are they just implementing the open standard

which is open assets yeah so it's uh most like those big companies mostly they usually you know they want they want to to deal with like bigger companies so coin PR at the moment is quite small so so they so they usually they rather hire their own people their own Engineers to work on the on the technology and reimplement their own stack which works on open assets which is what uh Overstock did I think they they have like a team of Engineers working on that so they you know because it's such a simple protocol it's easy to build your own tools around it so uh that's what they're doing we're still doing some Consulting with some companies which are interested uh you know yeah in open assets so there's still some business here but uh yeah it's definitely it's a marketing that's

expanding so it's uh it's going to grow very fast at some point so so with uh with the NASDAQ example you mentioned they want to use color coins on for their private uh chains but then how does that work because color coins is a protocol that runs on top of Bitcoin do you know what exactly they have in mind or how that's supposed to play out NASDAQ so I think NASDAQ they want to use it for settlement uh so in their private Market platform they have uh they don't have so many companies listed I think they have about 60 companies it's uh just private companies it's like separated from their big uh you know public exchange where you know obviously you have like

thousands of companies and there's like millions of transactions per day but their private Market platform is like a test beted for them so uh they have a smaller amount of transactions and uh I think they can use it for settlement so they can uh probably uh every day or even every 10 minutes they can um adjust accounts uh but obviously I think they might they probably will retain the casys for that so you won't be able to join the exchange and uh you know participate as an anonymous uh user because obviously there's a lot of regulations that that would be uh violated if you if you were doing that but uh basically yeah I think they use it for settlement it's not clear exactly what they plan to do because obviously a lot of it is still uh uh hasn't been really discussed yet but uh yeah so at

least the in the initial press release they said they were experimenting with open assets is this where the idea for open chain originated or is there is there some correlation there because it seems kind of similar from from the open chain protocol yeah so uh open chain so basically so so I've been talking to a number of of companies uh uh for some time and uh usually there's some uh some questions that keep keep coming back and uh so one of those questions is scalability so as we all know uh Bitcoin has liit Li mited scalability because of you know the the fact that it uses Pro of work and this distributed architecture so it's limited to more or less seven transactions per second uh so this is always a question

that comes back and you know there's ways to address it with open assets by using you know lightning networks and this type of things but uh basically you end up building a lot of things uh you know a lot of complicated uh layers on top of it and uh so yeah open chain solves that problem by just not doing all of the complicated things and just you know stepping aside uh proof of work you know stepping aside the Bitcoin blockchain even and uh doing transactions of chain directly um so that's one question that always comes back and another one is the control of uh of of the transactions so you know NASDAQ uh they cannot afford having transactions being completely open onto the network and letting anybody do any

kind of transactions they you know there's a lot of regulations that uh requires them to know if all the par is involved so it's kind of has to work in a Clos Loop and then there's some uh you know there's some other restrictions you know maybe the you know the the trading can only happen during uh daytime for example I don't know if that's the case for private Market but might be so in that case you know that's another type of thing that they need to be able to restrict there's plenty of rules that they can actually really enforce easily on the Bitcoin blockchain so that's why open chain kind of provides uh the way to do that so the the way that I sort of see this I mean I we've been we've been researching this for for last a while Bri And discussing and the way that I

would explain it in one sentence and I'd like to know if you think this is correct is it's a distributed database that gets block stamped every 10 minutes to the blockchain is that sort of accurate or are there parts missing there uh you mean open chain yeah yeah so it's basically uh yeah it's it's a database basically it's it's actually built on a database you know because you know databases have been uh around for decades they kind of work now work pretty well so it's a database except uh we add on top of that we add uh basically harh all the transactions and every 10 minutes we take the cumulative hash of all of that and we put it in the Bitcoin blockchain so the Bitcoin blockchain is irreversible you know as we know because of proof of work and it's very expensive to reverse the

transaction so this kind of ensures the immutability of everything that happened you know as part of this cumulative hash so it kind of protects um uh against the you know re reversibility of the of The Ledger while still providing the same scal scalability as you get from uh you know a simpler system yeah I mean I think there's a lot to talk about there and we want to come back so we have we have a lot of questions sort of regarding you know the security the consensus because you you start getting interesting discussions I mean sasia said this sentenc to me before as well but you know when I read through it I was like well it's not actually distributed database right it's a actually centralized database which makes sense

when the the uh what you are aiming for is scalability right because as soon as you start having this distributed consensus process well scalability becomes almost I mean much much more difficult at least um but maybe before we get to that let's talk a little bit about sort of what's the structure of open chain how is or what's the architecture of the protocol yeah so the the idea behind it is for every uh or organization that's issuing an asset they would run their own instance of open chain so if I take the example of uh let's say Starbucks coupons uh like you know which you can

spend for you know dollars at Starbucks they're issued by Starbucks so Starbucks would would run their own instance and that instance will control all the transactions where you have Starbucks coupons and on the other side maybe you have um well maybe you have Maes coupons and those Maus coupons are controlled by an instance that that's uh controll by macces and uh you know you that way uh you know Macy has complete control over what happens uh to their point so they can set rules you know you can put expiration dates you can uh you know you can freeze an account if it turns out gift card has been you know stolen from the store and uh you know you want to be able to block the points that were on

the card you know it's a lot of fraud with gift cards so you can you can set the rules that that match your your business needs basically and so we have many different uh instances um so you know every organization has their own instance and then you can connect uh instances to each other uh when you want to have let's say you want to swap a Mac's coupon for a Starbucks coupon then you you would have uh they would have to be connected in some in some way so either they're directly connected to each other or they're connected to a third chain where you can do the swaps uh but basically you can form like sort of a mesh network of different uh chain open chain instances and uh you know transact assets depending on which

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contain yeah so uh basically the so it's it's a simple architecture so um so Bitcoin needs uh a peer-to-peer uh system because there's no Central Authority obviously so um essentially the Bitcoins are issued by the protocol itself uh through consensus so you you don't have a central Authority so the network needs to needs to be peer-to-peer that's uh that's something you have to have uh but peer-to-peer you know it's uh it's a nice tool but there's also like some issues with peer-to-peer because um it's it's very uh you know consuming in terms of require like in terms of resources so it consumes a lot of bandwidth uh because you need to you

have such redundancy that there's a lot of bandwidth uh it latency usually would be higher in peer-to-peer systems because it's harder to optimize uh so basically also like another big reason uh one another big issue is um uh phones for example or like mobile devices they it's hard for them to connect to a peer-to-peer Network because us usually your uh mobile network uh will only you know will block some ports and they won't let you connect to you know for example the Bitcoin Network or you know to the torrent like a bit torrent or any kind of P2P Network so it's harder for mobile devices to connect to um to a peer-to-peer Network so we've basically uh taken a simpler approach and we've just using a

client server architecture uh because we only have one node that validates a given asset so that node can be a server and it's actually uh in the interest of the uh of the organization you know of having uh a node that runs well that's highly available and so on so Starbucks has like a big interest in you know keeping that node running and having lot of bandwidth and so on so they're the ones who are going to pay for it but the end users are not going to have to pay for it they just connect to a server uh because you know the end user shouldn't have to pay for being able to use uh gift cards like Starbucks gift cards uh and Starbucks doesn't even want to have the end users pay for it so it's it's better um alignment of the of the cost

essentially and it's easier for devices like lightweight devices like uh mobile phone to connect to it because uh well basically it's just exposing HTTP uh interfaces and pretty much every device in the world that's connected to the internet can connect through HTTP so it's a much easier interface to connect to for lightweight device so in this example of Starbucks uh points Starbucks would be the the validator node so they have a a a an open chain instance which is just like an an npm like it's a node implementation and the participants so the customers would be Observer nodes uh yeah so so there's this concept of of observing nodes um so an observing

node connects to a validating node and it receives um it receives a copy of all the transactions as they get validated um so basically there's a it's using web soet so you can actually have an observing node which is implemented in your browser if you want to uh but you basically connect to this web socket and you receive all the transactions that they get confirmed and uh that allows you to reconstruct a complete copy of The Ledger so you have your own copy of The Ledger you can verify everything you can calculate the cumulative hash and uh compare it to what's in the Bitcoin blockchain to ensure that the uh Integrity is uh you know that that uh everything is you know there's still Integrity you still have the correct

copy and nothing has been reverted and the observing nodes um they have the ability also to examine every transaction they can verify digital signatures uh they can also uh verify who's doing what so there's this concept in uh in open chain where the validator uh can Define uh when you're when you own the validator you can Define administrators so you define public Keys which uh which are the public keys of the the administrators of the instance and those administrators can do uh things that normal users cannot do so they can for example issue tokens um the you know by default uh normal users can't issue token although

you can also configure it so that normal users can issue tokens but uh you know and they can also make transactions from two accounts that they don't necessarily own because you know in case of fraud for example they might want to revert uh transaction they can also affect permissions so they can uh remove the permission on an account so that this account can is not allowed to trade anymore if if they want to freeze an account let's say so uh when you do that it's visible that this transaction let's say a transaction freezing an account has been signed by the administrator so all the Observer can see that uh you know the administrator froze an account or the administrator reverted a transaction and uh you know basically it kind of keeps them honest right if the

validator does something that you know they start freezing lot of accounts The Observers observers will notice and two things can happen the first one is they might lose trust so if their customers uh they might uh they might lose trust stop using the service and the second thing is uh the customers if they believe that something illegal happened uh they can actually use The Ledger the copy of The Ledger in court as an evidence that the administrator did that because everything is digitally signed there's the signature of the administrator and this can hold this can be used as an evidence in court so it kind of keeps the validators honest so but then so coming back to the Starbucks model with with the customers or the the the customers of Starbucks be

these validator nodes or these Observer nodes or or should it be some auditing party like Deo or something like that which is auditing the the validator copy of the blockchain or not of the blockchain but of of their Ledger yeah so the customers can be observers but they don't have to they they can also just be just like with clients if you talk about the case of Starbucks right I mean if you talk about scalability right then you start having huge volumes of transaction so the idea that customers would run OBS server notes doesn't make sense no because they would have the same number of data the same volume that would be coming in yeah I mean if you're yeah usually I suppose uh long term it would

be firms that would be uh like auditing firms maybe that would be doing that uh for the users you know it could be like uh consumer protection comp like uh organizations uh that exist in some countries they could you know check that the ledgers are working properly uh but yeah like yeah depending on the scale the number of transactions uh yeah the the end users might or might not be able to do that but at least the it's possible for someone to do it at least so maybe it's going to take some more money maybe it's going to take some resources to do but at least it's possible to do it yeah I I think this is this is interesting know because we've had this discussion for a while right so there's there's been Bitcoin and there's a whole philosophy around Bitcoin and then there's been a lot of work on on

permission blockchains and then a lot of people sort of say oh permission blockchain or at least if you read Reddit then people say oh permission blockchain is just a database and this is it's sort of like nonsensical statement right because you still have a a consensus process that ad ministers has rules you know uh so but but it obviously isn't the same thing as a peer-to-peer Network where sort of anybody can join in the consensus process right so that's a that's a clear difference but then of course you can say well I mean in some cases is that even necessary like do you even need to have you know 10 entities like administrating the process together and

you know voting on blocks or what not or can you just not like get rid of that and instead you know gain some uh you know enormous scalability and speed and and uh cost saving things as well right and then I think open chain is is that right it goes goes sort of to The Very extreme to say uh well we don't need a consensus process like there's no P2P Network here this is just a database with digital signatures so you know you see who does water I mean at least someone sees it and and then okay you can you can put an observer node in there so let's say somebody has uh has a record of of what

that sees there and then of course you do get some security aspects again I mean how much of course that depends a lot on who runs the Observer what exactly is the is being done um but it's interesting because then you know in a way is is is this to what extent does this is this coming from Bitcoin and blockchain and and and this or to what extent is this something that you could do completely independently in this is not actually that related yeah it's it's kind of uh yeah departure from uh from Bitcoin and blockchain I guess it uses some of the ideas uh that were pioneered by Bitcoin uh sort of as um you know Bitcoin the

the core feature of Bitcoin is censorship resistance and it's been designed in the way that uh it enables sens censorship resistance and the transparency is part of you know that you need transparency to enable that uh but you know still it's still use useful to have um a transparent uh Ledger even though you don't need censorship resistance uh obviously it's not as necessary because you know people have been doing that today for you know for a while without transparency and it works to some degree it's not necessary but it's still a nice thing to have and also um digital signatures um they're used today I mean they've been used for a while now uh but not completely across the board you know like um um there's

always a bunch of systems uh that that don't rely rely completely on trust and no digital signatures so if you use something where it's they are enforced across the board and it kind of increases security uh also there's this idea of using the blockchain for immutability or publishing the hash which is it's kind of a small thing but it's still uh very nice to have uh but you know it uses some of the ideas of Bitcoin but yeah it's still very different from uh cryptocurrency so so the important ideas that you see being used here are digital signatures um so the idea that I guess every transaction is associated with a public key and and sign so you I guess you see where it comes from um and and what is is that is that the most

important aspect here that you're sort of taking from Bitcoin so there's the uh yeah like the transparency is is very important the fact that anybody can uh become an observer and replicate uh The Ledger is I think is very important uh there's also uh the fact that you know it's a simple API um uh it's it's you know it's easy to program against uh which you know systems tend to be very complicated they have a lot of bells and whistles but here like the core the core API is is very simple um yeah and also the mutability is is also a nice feature but uh yeah obviously there's no censorship resistance because it's like the assets the assets we're talking about uh you know you can always go to

the company that holds those assets like Starbucks if you're the government and force them to to do something or to go to prison so in that case they're going to find a way to do it even if the technology prevents them from doing it they're going to find a way one one way or another so either technology is going to help them do it or it's going to you know slow them do it but at the end of the day it doesn't matter it's going to happen because you know they they're they're still biing the law right right so and of course one of the interesting aspects too and and consequences of that and I think that's the sort of a logical decision you made there right is that you get rid of blocks right so it's not a blockchain because well why do you need blocks

right so you need blocks of course if like let's say there's there's different uh parties administering this process right and you know they may have received stuff in different orders and somehow they have come to agreement right so you bundle them all together and you send them around and then somehow they all say okay this is the status but of course if there's a central server but what's the point of a block right you don't need a block yeah absolutely and uh the blocks uh essentially the introduce a delay because when you submit a transaction to a system that's based on blocks like you know Bitcoin you have to wait for the next block for confirmation so it is first of all it's not synchronous you have to wait for confirmation which is a different event uh so it takes time and even some

systems like uh some systems based on proof of stake they reduce the block time to like few seconds sometimes uh but even few seconds is still a long time for some of some applications like um trading for example is something where uh every millisecond counts so if you have confirmation time of two seconds uh you cannot use it for like uh you know markets and trading because it's uh it's too slow so you know if you do synchronous uh confirmation so basically you eliminate the blocks and confirm instantly then uh then it becomes usable for this type of applications let's take a short break so I can take it a par I walked into L Bitcoin the house of Bitcoin in the heart of silicon saner home to many

startups including Ledger and I spoke with Eric LC Ledger's CEO about the allnew unplugged NFC Hardware wallet The Ledger unplugged is the NFC based Hardware wallet that you can use with compatible Android phones the private keys are stored in a secure element and you can use them with wallets such as melium and grid bits each time you want to make a transaction the signature will be done by the unplugged and this way your private Keys is critical data will never be exposed to the Android phone this is a secure way to use your Bitcoins on the go in mobility and you will also be able to pay directly with

the unplugged with compatible point of sale terminals The Ledger unplugged is the simple solution for secure contactless Bitcoin payments you can get the unplugged at Ledger wallet.com and when you use the code epicenter a checkout you'll get 10% off your order by the way that code works on their entire range of products so we'd like to thank Ledger for their support of epicenter Bitcoin let's St on this topic of consensus uh one thing that we mentioned earlier is uh before the show is this idea that you know the valid the observing nodes could um do real-time auditing so in you know in the case of of uh of Starbucks or perhaps like if you want to do Stock Exchange you know rather than having auditing at the end

of the month or the end of the year you could have auditing happening in real time and the value of having the hash of all the transactions added to the blockchain every 10 minutes is that you can point to that transaction and that hash and all of the Observer nodes can say okay this come to a consensus I guess without knowing each other that all these transactions happened because you know there's the proof of it in the blockchain um does does this imply that you could have multiple observers that don't necessarily know each other and can still validate that you know these transactions took place and then what is to stop the validating node from sending different copies of The Ledger

to the different Observer nodes yeah it's a good question yeah but you can definitely have multiple observers that don't know about each other and actually it's even possible to have observers exposed CL the transaction stream so that you have like a second level of observers that connect to the first level of observers and you know it kind of buil a sort of a graph or a tree I would say where uh you know you can actually scale out nicely like this you know you would have just a four uh let's say four observers at the first level then you have 16 at the second level and then uh you know 64 at the third level so it's it's uh it's much easier to scale this way and uh what yeah you're right that The Observers could send uh different versions to different

observers uh but if they do that uh the cumulative hash for those different observers would be different and one of those observers would realize that the cumulative hash doesn't match what's in the blockchain so the blockchain is like that part that everybody has to agree on uh you know it that's the the one thing that uh ensures that there's only one version of History right and so in your doc in the documentation you mentioned that you can do you can do like large volumes of transactions and those transactions get get hashed into the blockchain uh and which comes up to if you do once if you hash uh if you send the hash once every block that comes $10 a month or something like

that what what would be some of the criteria that would push an organization to say well rather than you know push these to every block we'll push them to every 10 blocks or every 100 blocks because you can you can also you can also adjust that right oh yeah you can adjust the frequency depending on your need you know if you don't have a lot of transactions maybe you know every 10 blocks is enough if you do it every 10 blocks you actually save 90% of the cost so it's like $10 for every block according to the the current fees I mean the fees vary over time if you you know you divide it by 10 if you do it only every 10 blocks uh you know if you do it once every day then you you're going to pay less than a dollar per month um and

this is you know there's no point in any case there's no point having more an anchors than uh more than one anchor per block because it doesn't add anything you know the block is like a uh it's like a snapshot in time so you know if you have two anchor at the same time it you know doesn't bring uh more so you don't need to have more than one per block uh but you know one the the maximum resolution you can have is uh one per block and it gives you the same level of irreversibility as you get uh with Bitcoin because with Bitcoin you have to wait 10 minutes before you know that the transaction is in irreversible so it's the same level of irreversibility so so you know you mentioned that uh yeah you can have instant uh confirmations right so

essentially that means right like let's say I make a transaction I send it to the validator and now of course if the Val because the validator isn't charged he can immediately say okay yeah no like transaction approved right but uh that also means there is no security there right because you could throw it out again and and there's nothing I mean the chain would be perfectly valid right right I mean it's true that if you have like the chain hashed in between you know then the hash you know you can't throw out things that let's say before the hash I mean you could throw them out but at least it would be noticed people would say okay well what happened here but otherwise uh EV validators can sort of

do whatever they want with it right they can they can go back and and change the sequence of transactions or they can just block incoming transactions I think that's what you mean Brian is that incoming transactions get just thrown out you could you could put transaction in say like add it to the to the chain of transactions but then later take it out again yeah so blocking a transaction is kind of their right uh if they want to block it as long as it tell you that it's been blocked uh it's fine uh but um yeah they could like I said they could accept the transaction tell you that it got accepted and uh 10 minutes later uh when they publish the hash then that transaction is not in the chain anymore so yeah if you don't trust the validator uh you might need to wait for 10 minutes

uh to be sure that the transaction has been confirmed uh but usually in this kind of setup uh the end user would trust the validator would trust the company because the validator you know you would trust Starbucks to you know uh tell you when the transactions are confirmed for their point uh there's no point really for them to to cheat on that right I mean another small question so how would you so so they put the hash in the blockchain how would you know like is it possible to see if if the which hashes are like tied together with previous hashes or like does that you have to see that from somewhere else someone else has go and say okay these are the hashes that belong to that open

chain um so basically you when you configure your open chain instance uh you give it the private key of a Bitcoin address uh which which should have some funds and then the the hashes are published from that address so like the fees are taken from that address and uh so actually we have one address like this for uh for the test instance that we have so so far there has been like five or six anchors since uh since when we rebooted it uh like a couple of days ago so you know every time uh you know every like every so often it publishes a hash there and uh every basically every uh instance would have a different address that they would use so that's how you identify that's a nice way of handling that but yeah so no I was just

saying you need to keep funding that address with Bitcoin to pay those transaction fees yeah yeah so you need you need like to fund it like for like 10 10 depending on the fees you know 10 $20 per month to make sure that you can still publish the hash there so it's using up return transaction is pretty simple it's just up return and then change uh and then some some goes to the fees as well but it's it's a very small transaction uh but yeah you still need to pay like a small amount of fees and what's nice about this is that you can always look at that address and you can just see the list of transactions basically in in one Bitcoin address yeah yeah exactly yeah you can see the the list and then every anchor has also the number of transactions that that are um

encapsulated into that hash so you can track you know like uh what stage every anchor is at let's take a short break and talk about hi. me hi. me is a VPN provider and if you don't know yet why you should need a VPN provider let us help you I'm sure you like me and when all the crazy Revelations came out during the Snowden time uh of all the the spying that is being done by the in other government agencies you were shocked and you said not with me not with my own rights now the way government agencies can spy on you there's many of them but the most easiest way is by simply going to your ISP and getting all your traffic

capturing all your traffic and the VPN can protect you from that it can give you a secure tunnel from your computer to any of the exit nodes all over the world so that all the traffic goes to the secure pipe that's encrypted and cannot be intruded on and with hi. me you can choose any of their their 30 exit noes all over the world so you can enter the internet in a secure location the best thing about hi high. me is that they have a free plan which includes 2 GB of unthrottle bandwidth per month so you can go to hide.me epicenter to create your free account and when you use that URL you'll automatically get 35% off if ever you decide to go premium Now the premium plans are really great they include unlimited bandwidth access to all of the

30 exit nodes that high. me provides and you can install it on up to five devices at a time so you can have this running on your phone your tablet your computer at work your personal computer and just be completely protected all the time and of course high. me accepts Bitcoin so we'd like to thank high. me for their support of epicenter Bitcoin Sebastian Ma I'm stealing your great question sasia he he made an interest he made an interesting observation before and so well let me let me take a step back so one of the things that at arys right we do is that you say okay you sort of take the consensus rule you put it in a smart

contract right so you could have like let's say one party in control or you could have multiple parties so it seems like here as well okay you maybe you say it's fine if just Starbucks is in charge because you know they can always refuse to give me the coffee anyway but maybe also you say well I don't want just Starbucks in control I want maybe these three entities in control or like you might want to have all kinds of rules regarding that so so same up the point yeah well could you run an open chain as a distributed application would that be possible uh that's might be possible yeah I haven't really thought in that

direction but it might might be possible yeah but going back to like having multiple parties controlling let's say uh Starbucks transactions or let let's say for the purpose of this example let's say it's like PayPal there's like a PayPal chain and uh you have other companies validating the the PayPal chain let's say you have also like visa and MasterCard and then on the PayPal chain so PayPal chain kind of controls the funds you have on PayPal and uh Alice makes a payment to Bob like a $100 so Bobba has has a $100 and then PayPal decides that uh the transaction was fraud or something thing and a der rivered transaction uh but visa and MasterCard don't agree so they uh visa and MasterCard refuse to take that

transaction so they essentially Fork assuming that you would have like this consensus you know with PayPal Vis MasterCard Vis MasterCard would Fork into a version of History where the reversal didn't happen so Bob still has1 $100 but as far as PayPal is concerned Bob doesn't have $100 anymore so when Bob comes to to PayPal and tries to withdraw his $100 he says okay on the main chain I'm supposed to have $100 so give me those $100 you know I want to withdraw into my bank account PayPal is going to say no because you know as far as we know you don't have $100 the transaction was reverted so and there's nothing that the user can do he can say okay look but like the other guys on the main chain think that I have $100 right but at the end of at the end of the day

you need to to to resolve this in court maybe or you know that's the only way so it doesn't really change the uh the bottom well I I I don't think I agree with you I think in the example you gave that would would be an indication that the chain and the contracts you know if you talk about this being in a like in a smart contract land or the chain wasn't set up properly right because if if it's a thing where like the ultimate judge of do you have $100 with PayPal or not it's just PayPal well yeah then PayPal should be able to make that decisions but other things you know you may have different rules right or you may have multiple part being in charge or so so then you you might still have a

process of like let's say a FR payment is reversed but you know maybe you en code who gets to choose on that process like where does it go you know I mean I think there's all kinds of things you can do I mean you're certainly right that it's it's crucial for these kind of things that the sort of the state of the chain is in accordance with the state of you know the legal state so you know if someone control the sort of the reality they have to be able to make those changes in the chain otherwise it becomes irrelevant what you have on there yeah It's Tricky though because at at the end of the day those $100 are going to live on someone's bank accounts you know maybe okay in my case it's PayPal's bank account so ppal has all

the controls uh but even if it's a bank account that's controlled by the three companies it means that in that case uh you have some kind of legal structure uh which encompasses Visa Mastercard and PayPal and in that case that legal structure becomes the legal structure that can be uh that can maintain the ledger so you can of always have to have an owner you cannot really have an asset that's being I mean as far as I know as far as law law is concerned you can actually have an asset that belongs to many people at the same time there has to be one legal owner so that legal owner is the one that would be in control of The Ledger um but you know maybe laws will change in the future and maybe it's possible to have this kind of setup but um it's still very tricky yeah

it's definitely true that It's tricky to to get these things right I was just going to talk about the I wanted to talk about the technical implementation so can you describe how uh a company would Implement an open chain server yeah so I mean uh like if if we're going to technical details so we have a documentation website it's docs. open chain. org and there's like a lot of documentations and there's one document that explains how to deploy an instance and uh so it it runs on uh right now the the support mode of deployment is is through Docker which is like a container system uh so it's it's an easy way to to deploy applications uh it's kind of popular at the moment so

it's the type of thing you just uh install Docker on your Linux machine or it also works on os6 and windows by the way you just install it there and then um and then you just uh uh execute the few common lines that are described on the on the on the documentation website and and then you're going to have your instance and there's a configuration file which you can modify and so that configuration file today uh it has um a few settings that you can change uh so the first one is the public keys or addresses of the administrators so if you want to be an administrator you would generate HD wallet uh you would you would generate a public key from that HD wallet and put that public key

into the configuration file and so from that point on you can use that HD wallet to sign uh admin transactions you mean a Bitcoin HD wallet yeah so we actually open chain uses the same elliptic curve as Bitcoin so all the libraries that you can use for signing transactions with Bitcoin like uh bitcore uh Bitcoin J and so on you can use the same with open chain uh so yeah you generate HD wallet and then you sign administrative transactions with that key uh so like you can uh you know change permissions on accounts um yeah the the structure of of accounts is hierarchical so you can you can set a permission at a you know at a top level and that applies to all

the sub accounts below that uh you can well you can do a lot of things as as the admin uh another setting that you can uh configure is um whether you want to allow uh the end user to um to issue their own assets so if you want to have a ledger where anybody can issue their own assets then you can turn you just set it to true and that becomes possible uh there's a few other settings and then once this is all configured you just set up uh the the permissions on The Ledger and so permissions they have um there's a number of permission so there's the right to spend money so you you can associate an account with a public key and give it the right to spend money which means then that uh this public key

is allowed to sign transactions spending money from that uh account there's also the right to receive money uh so you can by default you can either set it to uh allowing everybody to receive money so in that case any account can receive money or you can uh use like more like um more a pattern where you have to be wh listed to be able to receive money so if you want to only allow your users to be able to receive money then you you sell it to force by default and then you enable only some accounts some public keys to receive uh funds uh and there's a few other things uh you can also um so you can what's interesting is uh because uh with Bitcoin obviously it's a it's a common blockchain everybody

shares the simp blockchain so there's a lot of limitations in what data can be put in the in the blockchain but with open chain because you're the one who sort of it's your server string on your server so you're paying for the hosting cost so you can put as much data as you want basically There's No Limit because uh you know you're the one and it's not even really uh you know it's not replicated on 6,000 noes so it's it's not as expensive even so you can store kilobytes or megabytes of data if you want and uh you can also give the right to the users to store their own metadata so we use that metadata for a few different things you can for example Define uh the terms of service of uh of your instance so there's a special uh piece of data that you would put which a

with a special name and uh the users when they connect with their wallets they will see that terms of services and they they have to accept it for example uh you can also uh we also use uh this ability to store data to store uh Asset definition on The Ledger so when you create an asset uh you can you can say okay this this asset is called the epicenter coins and uh it has this icon and this is the short name and so on much like you do with color coins yeah exactly except in the case of open chain it's actually stored in The Ledger itself so it's all completely signed all the way and it's part you know it's it's actually a transaction that creates that data and put it in the blockchain so it's all completely unified uh with col coins it was a bit more complicated

because we cannot put so much data in the blockchain the Bitcoin blockchain so instead we store the data outside of the blockchain and we refer to it with URL so it's not as elegant uh with open chain you can put their data completely indirectly um yeah so there's a few of things you can uh you can have also uh pointer record so you can have an account pointing to another account uh with a pointing with a pointer record so whenever someone sends money to that uh Source account they automatically get forwarded to the other account um yeah so there's plenty of things plenty of features like this that can be done by using data records okay and then so you also have client side libraries then so then you can easily deploy wallets and applications that use uh open or sorry

that use uh open chain uh yes so I mean we have so the uh the wallet has been open sourced and it's uh completely web based because we're talking about HTTP apis so it's pretty easy to program um a web based interface to deal with that uh and it's completely open source and actually we use um you know there's no complicated things really happening in there it's just uh I would say the most complicated thing that happens is signing the transaction and for that we use bitcore which is the library that the open source library from bitpay uh and it's just a few lines of code with bitcore you just sign a transaction and then send it to the server uh so it's actually pretty simple and you know it's in any language you could deal with it

pretty easily okay and so regarding capacity so you know your Starbucks for instance and you deploy an instance and then all of a sudden you start getting into the maybe thousands of transactions per second uh how does a server architecture have to scale is it is it pretty low balance or you know if you start getting into those High Ser transaction volumes do you have to have like perhaps uh you know pretty hefty server or you know distributed servers around the world that are managing these ledgers that are validating transactions yeah it's a very good question so actually open chain has kind of this modular architecture and we have this concept of storage engine and uh you know by default it uses a just a

simple you know SQL database locally uh but we plan to add more support for more storage engines and uh potentially you would be able to store data in in the like scaleout databases like cendra or mongodb and those are you know made for scale you know you like Facebook and uh Twitter and those guys they store um you know thousands of terabytes of data in those databases and and uh when you will be able to use uh those databases as a storage engine then uh yeah it's then it's easy to implement scaleout uh you would have you know you can have like 16 nodes uh sh you know sharting the data and uh storing each some part of the data with replication and so on uh so you can Ensure High availability as well

as uh um you know scalability scale out um so that would be a way to scale basically we rely on will that be possible because um I mean it it seems like that or would you have to compromise on for example the instant confirmation then uh yeah um so not really I mean you would uh you would still commit uh the the database into cassendra so you you have different uh so you know I don't know if people are familiar with cassendra but there's many uh right modes and there's some right modes where you have um uh you know delay consistency some of them where you have instant consistency uh if

you use so there is a system like a system called Quorum uh where you write to a majority of nodes and uh by doing that you ensure that um there's actually you know it works actually with consensus you know cassendra implements its own consensus mechanism so when you write to majority of nodes you know that the data is committed and even if you lose a node uh you you don't lose the data so you can still uh you can still have instant confirmations uh it might be a little bit slower of course because now you're talking to different nodes um but this is the type of thing you can scale you know like you know like I said Facebook Twitter are using those uh those databases and they obviously have a very large scale today's magic word is open o PN

head over to let's talk bitcoin.com to sign in enter the magic word and claim your part of the listener [Music] reward so regarding the security model and the sort of link to the Privacy model um could you have a an openchain Ledger that is behind a firewall um so you want to have sort of a private a private uh Ledger how would you prevent I guess

your um Observer nodes from leaking the data outside of that you know behind that firewall if if indeed you could yeah so there's plenty of uh models that can work so but the fact that it's a server it means that if you Shield it if you put it behind a firewall uh you can prevent anybody from accessing accessing it so if you want to use it internally for your organization but you don't want to let other people accessing it uh you just use it on an internet for example uh or into your local network um and then only it's then it can only be used with from within your organization and you can still have Observer notes uh but they will be inside the organization obviously um so

yes like the kind of architecture you know Network architecture that people have been doing in the past 20 years this this type of thing completely applies uh one thing that's also interesting is because it's exposing HTTP interfaces you can put it behind Cloud flare so Cloud flare for for you know I don't know if you're familiar it's a service that uh provides Doos protection uh so they sort of intercept the course and then forward them to your own server uh so they have a free tier which is very good and then they have like Pro editions and so on but they basically protect against dos attacks and uh lot of different attacks they provide caching and so on and uh so you can you know if you want you can put your server behind Cloud flare to protect it against Doos uh like

everything that works with web servers today there's a lot of tools that works with web servers you know for 15 years a lot of things have been running on web servers everything all of this can work with open chain because it's using HTTP interfaces okay that's interesting but but so regarding privacy though if you if you're using open chain behind a firewall you'd still have to trust the lowest common denominator not not to uh to leak the data of your Ledger outside the system yeah if you want to use it just internally then you would not expose it at all to the outside and The Observers would also have to be inside you would need to make sure that you I mean you would you wouldn't really have you wouldn't really be able to have

Observers out side of the network because they couldn't connect to the validator node uh but yeah and then uh if you you know it depends what what the scope of that instance is supposed to be if you want to expose it to the outside then uh yeah you you can open the firewall but if you want it to remain uh internal then you need to make sure that the validator node and all the Observer nodes are within the firewall so so one of the use cases that uh it seems like this is tiered for and you mentioned it before is is the idea of of trading right because you certainly right that blockchains aren't very good at that you know I mean Bitcoin certainly wouldn't be useful for that and and then even if you take like permission chains uh you still have problems right as you

mentioned right if there's like a few second confirmation time well that's probably too slow so one of the interesting things here and I'm curious how that's going to work is is the idea that or would you in in a trading use case let's say we want to do a stock market with open chain would you have a a different open chain for each stock and would those be issued then by the company or would would like let's say NASDAQ would have like one open chain that includes all the stock of the entire stock market yeah it's an interesting question um so right now there is this uh this uh concept of uh

stock depositories which is like the dtcc in the US and there's a few also in Europe um and this is where the stocks are held ultimately so those uh those companies could be the ones running U an openchain Ledger and uh you know have people you know instead of having this this very uh tiered approach where you have like a repository then you have Brokers then you have the exchange you could have the the depository holding the stocks exposing a um open chain Ledger and then everybody could connect to that directly so you kind of eliminate a few intermediaries uh that's one way to do it and then you could as far as the exchanges are concerned you know if you're NASDAQ and you you're you want to run an exchange you would have maybe a second instance where you

have uh tokens that represents um which is kind of a proxy for a token on the at the dtcc for example so um and then uh you still don't have to do reconciliation because everything kind of happens automatically you can have like a a smart contract in a way that makes sure that every everything is always in sync uh but but still but then you can you the NASDAQ has the ability to have their own um um sort of uh small uh instance where all the trading happens um and for let you know to go back to your first question if you would have different instances per different stocks um I mean everything is possible you can have multiple you can have just one instance with many different stocks on

it uh but I think for again for scalability just very practical reason it it would probably be better to have uh one server per security uh but um you know definitely there's many architectures possible uh depending on you know on the on the creativity so so that um that kind of leads into the next question no because if you start having uh 100 chains with one chain per security uh how can those interoperate yeah basically uh there's the concept of uh Gateway so you can establish a Gateway from one chain to another and what it does is it creates um let's say you have Starbucks points

on the Starbucks chain and then you want to have a like you want to have like an exchange for Starbucks points so that's exchange for Starbucks points uh you on that on there you would have a special token that that is a proxy for the actual Starbucks points on the on the Starbucks chain and um so you would as far as Starbucks would be is concerned you would be an account and when someone would want to transfer a Starbucks Point uh from the main Starbucks chain onto the exchange chain they would send it to that special account that you own and now you as the exchange you you kind of own that point and you create the equivalent on the on the uh exchange chain and then you give it to that user uh because you can map that user in

different ways like the easiest way to do it is by uh you know giving it to the same public key so as you know as long as the person has the public key you know that it has it because it sent the Starbucks point from that public key so you can give it to the same public key but on the other chain and then on the exchange chain you can run uh your exchange you know you can have rules uh you know specifically for that exchange and people can cash out uh from the exchange by sending it to again to a special account on the exchange chain which unlocks the coins on the main Starbucks chain so what I just explained it's actually very similar to the concept of side chains uh this is actually you know the exchange chain would be a side chain of the main

Starbucks chain uh and you can actually have uh a chain like an open chain instance which would be a side chain of the Bitcoin blockchain as well this is also possible but but so yeah let's talk about that example right because let's say you you had you know you're allowed to put Bitcoin on some open chain so that means you would put them in a certain account that would be controlled I presume by the validator of the open chain on the Bitcoin Network and then that validator would issue you a Bitcoin token on the open chain is that how it will work yeah that's how it would work uh although it's it's possible to decentralize this a bit because we're talking about Bitcoin so uh a setup that would be interesting is to it it

actually doesn't really have to be the validator although it's probably no it actually doesn't even have to be the validator it could be a third party company or a group of companies which uh come together they create a multisig address uh amongst all of those uh and and that multisig address is the Gateway so when you want to send Bitcoins from the main chain to the side chain which is like that special open chain instance they send it to the multi address so it gets locked by all those let's say five companies uh and then those five uh and then they and then a token is issued on the side chain then you know people can trade that token represents exactly one Bitcoin people can trade on the chain and when they want to cash out they send

it to an address which is again controlled by those five companies but on the side chain and um and then the five companies uh unlock the coins on the main chain and give it back to you the main chain right but I mean I can see that making some sense especially like let's say if you think that one of those multi addresses or some of them would be controlled by people running like Observer nodes on the open chain right exactly yeah yeah yeah it would be yeah but but still though because if you say there is an account that's like controlled by the same three entities let's say on the open chain I mean in the end every account on the open chain you know if if the validator can reverse transactions

and yeah but this is where this is a very good observation uh and what would happen is that the uh the five or three entities that control that multi address they would be observing Observer nodes and uh if they realize that the administrator reverses transactions and they don't agree with this the reversal of those transactions and let's say um you know you you have money that you shouldn't really have and they know like the five obser notes agree that you shouldn't really have that money then they just wouldn't sign the transaction when you try to cash out so when you try to cash out you still get need to get the signature of those five uh companies and because they're observing and they realize that something was not right they can just refuse to give your your

money because you you have money that you shouldn't have so even if the administrator reverses transaction then the Observer not still have the power of controlling the coins in that multi D yeah that's right right yeah so you you could have that security that the Bitcoins would be yeah presumably reasonably secure at least if the Observer nodes would be able to see H and know what's going on right because it might not I'm not sure if it will always be obvious when uh I mean yeah I mean the the service those five companies they would run probably special software to identify any type of transaction that that's not right because you know they would be running this type of service uh but this setup is actually exactly what

a Federated side chain is so this is you know this is basically you can set up a Federated side chain this an open chain yeah so before we wrap up um like to get maybe your sort of your your views on where the Bitcoin ecosystem is going and we've seen a proliferation of these protocols uh and standards that are built on top of Bitcoin and you know it seems like it was just yesterday that you know Bitcoin was going to be the currency that was going to you know everybody was going to use it but now we're seeing that in fact you know companies and Enterprises and sort of larger players are building all this infrastructure on top of Bitcoin and you know using Bitcoin not necessarily as a

payment mechanism but as rails on which other Protocols are implemented um where do you see this going in the next 5 to 10 years yeah I think I see Bitcoin becoming more of an infrastructure service you know like this the fact that you can publish a hash and it becomes mutable you know like like open chain is doing it's it's very valuable and I think people are going to realize that uh it's you know Bitcoin is going to it's going to stay as a store of value just because of that uh that value that it provides to as an infrastructure uh as a currency I don't know if I see it as a currency because there are still a lot of problems to overcome for people to use it as you know for payments and these type of things but it works okay

but uh the user experience you know when you try to pay in a store I mean it's not great right now there's a lot of prog progress to be done and I'm sure it is going to evolve over the next 5 years and 10 years it's like uh you know it's it's such a long time for this type of things you know five years ago Bitcoin was barely barely existed so uh who knows you know how the user experience will will have improved in 5 to 10 years um but yeah like those companies uh you know there's always this debate like with the blockchain without Bitcoin versus Bitcoin I think it's like two different use cases two very different things uh those comp is trying to build a blockchain what they want is like uh like a secure system with like nice properties like you know auditability

and uh you know transparency you know digital signatures they're not necessarily interested in uh in as for it as a payment like as a as a commodity like Bitcoin is but Bitcoin itself as a commodity is very useful for some things as well which is not what the banks are interested in but uh it's different use cases but it's still very interesting like the fact that um you know you can store the fact that it's like gold but digital you know so if you want to buy gold uh it's not very easy if you want to buy physical gold you have to store it somewhere so definitely using Bitcoin is a much easier way to do that um you know Bitcoin has also has this property of censorship resistance so I mean okay it's definitely useful for uh some of the illegal use cases I

mean there's uh I mean I'm not saying it's a good thing but at least you know it's useful there and just because of that it's not going to disappear um so it definitely has it use cases it's just not what the banks are looking at or like you know the financial institutions are looking at it's two different I think I think blockchain is kind of in the middle but it's like very like two different um angles really but they both have their merits yeah absolutely so when it comes to uh you like coin prism as a company is your plan now to build a business around open chain uh and also is it because for a long time it was coin prison was basically mainly you is that still the casee or is there

a a larger team now uh so it's still me the main person on the team uh I mean I'm working with like a few people parttime but yeah like we're still looking to grow the team uh you know in the in the next few months hopefully uh but uh as far yeah as far as product goes uh yeah obviously coin pris and call coins are still uh still around and we we want to you know also keep our focus on that and as a matter of fact we'll um we also allow uh pegging uh open assets uh tokens from the main chain to a to a open chain instance so you know like I was talking about using open chain as a side chain well it's not only going to

be for Bitcoin it's also going to be for colal coins so and we're going to you know enable that kind of scenario so that people who uh want kind of The Best of Both Worlds they can use the open chain for scaling and then they can then go back to the main chain for settlement or whatnot um so it's kind of two sides of the spectrum and we still want to you know to be able to have offerings on both sides on the permissionless side which is colal coin and Bitcoin because there are some use cases where it just works better and then on the permission side as well because you know there's also use cases where permission makes more sense so we want to keep the offering on both sides and be able to offer to people uh what they what's the best solution for

them cool oh great no that sounds fantastic uh thanks so much for coming on flamia yeah thanks for having me yeah and to listener thanks so much for listening it's it's always a pleasure and so we put out new episodes every Monday and you can subscribe to episodes on iOS iTunes SoundCloud or of course watch the videos on YouTube now if you're a loyal fan and if you listening you know what's coming now which is that we are doing this uh this campaign where essentially if you leave us an iTunes review some feedback on the show then we are sending you a T-shirt and we're we're almost out but we'll get new ones done so just email us at showcenter

bitcoin.com if you do that so thanks so much and we look forward to being back next [Music] week