Does the integrated thesis have legs?

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup today we had the pleasure of speaking with rousi from movement lambs and Austin from Omni Network we talked about their modular but integrated thesis at first we were kind of Skeptics of this thesis and frankly it may still be but we have a chance to ask our questions to rushi in Austin about why they see this trend playing out what this really means and what people can expect from the progression of modular blockchains enshrining more parts and becoming a more integrated structure we talked about their thesis with building their own TCH Stacks what that entails as well as what's to come for each of their respective protocols we hope you guys enjoy this episode and let's Jump Right In after a quick word from some of our amazing sponsors fuel achieves Higher throughput by utilizing a novel utxo

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integrated thesis as part of this broader modra thesis we've got Rob here with the wony Celestia shirt on fitting for the day Celestia is finally going up the sentiment is down Rob's going to consensus though so I'm pretty sure he's he's excited about that yeah the the euphoric conferences are definitely a little bit more fun and I know that the collar on this shirt is a little bit too big so I'm not sure exactly what's going on there maybe integrated t-shirts are a little bit more fitting they are they more fitting I'm going consensus too so we have integrated day um and it's going to be much more fitting nice nice all right well you said that's at consensus yeah it's like there's it's in two days from

now I will see you there sir I actually think that were they we're gonna post this on that day or the day before Austin are you going or no no I'm GNA be ECC though nice this is George is also integrated nice nice so you you guys kind of started this a bit of a movement if I if I'm G to call it that I guess like the idea that we should start with is like what's like kind of like the problem here um that you guys have seen from the Builder's perspective of like this idea of modularity and um you know kind of like this convergence I think of this monolithic track versus this modular track and kind of how you guys are seeing a lot of these design designs

come together so yeah let's start there and kind of expand yeah I kind I can start I think my like the issue that we ran into is like we didn't have a word for what we were it was always just like there a Frankenstein chain we have like different D different VMS different share sequencers when you have like five different maor components when you combine them um there was nothing to call that so it kept calling Frankenstein chains and like even like pitch calls they be like so it's a Frankenstein kind of product I was like yeah that's what it is um and eventually got to a point where like I kind of don't want to call my baby a Frankenstein I probably want to like have a better like terminology for this thing as well as like I realized other groups also had a similar issue where

they um had a novel feature or or leveraging existing Technologies um but didn't know how to combine it how do you combine um the notion of using existing software and then bringing your new software and then kind of combining that um Celestia started this whole maer wave um with the first ma blockchain they built essentially a DE um or they built a blockchain designed only for da right um and then you had like groups like Fuel and like espresso expresses for focus on shared sequencing FS like focusing most execution layer um what do you call like these different groups when you combine them what do you call like a fuel VM on espresso what do you call fuel VM on Celestia um and for us like we didn't have word for that so

this integrated thesis kind of popped up my head where um I talked to a few folks and it seemed like really resonated where we could essentially bring a category like within the modular umbrella that says if you use multiple modular Stacks so monality is modular plus modular that would be integrated because you're using um existing parts like service providers combine them for use case or specific Niche um also any few more thoughts yeah yeah no I think the key thing here is that we've ended up in this like quite messy world through people building out modular technologies um an integrated IC is kind of The Logical conclusion of that where we kind of took a bit here where we needed to optimize each different level of the infrastructure stack and because

we've been focused on separating out those individual levels to make things a little complex uh and difficult to use but integrated I see is like a way to compose all those different pieces together into really nice user experiences while getting the like Peak Performance properties out of each of those layers that to me is what integrated is really about nice cool and just on the on the modular and monolithic front like for a really long time I was of the understanding that we had this spectrum and on one end of the spectrum was this more centralized more but higher performance component of uh monolithic where every like that one entity is doing all of the things on the other end of that Spectrum you have modular uh

where it's kind of Peace meal but like when we think of that about that like through the frame of integrated it's no longer that modular and monolithic are really referring to the same thing these aren't really like two end two different ends of the spectrum now because monolithic is referring to an entire set of blockchain components whereas now we're we're using modular As One Singular component and then so how how are you kind of reconciling like you know like what a modular like like how does that kind of fit into the integrated thesis if now like modularity is referring to one of those pieces and integrated is now a bundle of of those pieces all integrated and working seamlessly together honestly my take

here is there's a very simple analogy in the history of software development uh that we can look to and it's really what happened in web 2 we used to ship software like once a year and it would come like on like diss you know now we're at a world like living in a world where every software company that uses modern practices updates their software packages like multiple times a day but users generally don't even have a clue that that is going on behind the scenes and so from a very like simplified perspective we can really think of Modell as like microservices and behind the software that most of us use today there are like hundreds of microservices being used but you don't think as a user you don't think about any of those it's

just a really nice simple experience and it can get better consistently over time so I don't think about it as much about in the dimension of like centralization versus not because that that's kind of a different thing you can evaluate each of these on it's more about like optimizing each of these individual uh components and I think we kind of have a historical precedent where this happened one too it just has like a very interesting software architecture given that we're doing in crypto now yeah I think my biggest example I point to is like car manufacturing when Henry Henry Ford first started Ford obviously built an in house um end to end all the parts but then he realized like it's better to like Outsource the engine Outsource the tires Outsource U each part of the components like individual tire manufacturers or individual engine

manufacturers will always do better than like a party or a lab centery that's focused on end to endend development the general thesis is if you can Outsource I think like Nick explains this as lazy right if you can be lazy with the parts of the stack that aren't important to you like for us like we're not focused on da we believe that other people can do better than us um we're not focused we're building on a sh sequencer but we're still using underlying Technologies um like we're lazy about things like da because not our business model but we're really focusing execution and developer experience because that's our bread and butter and C we're focused on day to day right um so going back to the car example like we're focused on let's say the chassis but still Outsourcing the engine Outsourcing um essentially the tires to

other organizations that we believe can do better and in terms of like ux like I would still say it's like salana today still has better ux from a developer point of view or monic chains still today have a better ux given they've been out for like 67 years right people forget that the whole mod thesis is six months old now like seven months old um and it's grown rapidly like the ecosystem chart like I think you guys already posted it is massive imagine when the moderate thesis and the integrated thesis gets six to seven years what you'll see is like the development speed of hundreds of labs entities will simply outpace a single lab entity um and then the thes of competition comes in where um because there's multiple service providers like different Das different sequencers that itself for forces competition within the

industry so everyone's going to compete on like Fast improving times um slower like faster latency so what that enables is like for example I can choose which de wins I can choose which sequence or wins um which gives more flexibility yeah I think pretty interesting point in terms of talking about uh consistent competition across each of these layers as well it's hard to build uh like a monopolistic lockin on a specific place here if we can just agree on standardized interfaces and that will kind of like push all the entire stack to really continually optimize throughout the year psychon and I think that we're aligned on the thesis I I think that where some of the push back comes from is is well there's a there's a couple things I think the

first thing to address is um when speaking of like salana and some of these like monolithic l1s I think that they've used this word integrated in the past to kind of uh symbolize what what they're doing if you will so like how are you guys thinking about like the or like this idea of like kind of being either some some confusion of monolithic or just kind of redefining this this this idea into kind of the the vision which you have yeah so from our side I think what we see is like like obviously salant took integrated first we had majer which is Celestia first um the people calling um their chains ma before Celestia um but Celestia kind of took it

and made it a huge campaign similarly I think like SAA is like obviously integrated and that's like the camp argues that they're integrated but I think it's still like early that you can kind of redefine it um for our thesis we generally believe that um integrated blockchains are ones that you would use multiple different things of multiple different providers if you're simply using your own TCH stack it's not integrated because you're just using yourself um it's a monic blockchain because you're designing end to end um the stack from execution to settlement to consensus Etc um while as the true integrated blockchains use multiple different Pro providers um in the past I don't think that's been possible because obviously takes time for things to mature but now that we have this explosion of infrastructure and

different providers working at each layer you can essentially um what we're trying to do is like get these groups aligned and be like hey the best blockchains are ones that use your stack my stack their stack um and that's a truly integrated blockchain so I think over the next six months with redefining what integrated means seeing all these teams kind of Market that all want to work together that brings an integre thesis life Welcome Aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind

fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this fraxel L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see frax faery the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into

the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your Frack assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity we uh I just want to talk about value ACR real quick CU like in in the monolithic sense value acrel tends to go to like the monop or like the monolith in the modular world like we've kind of theorized we've heard some from some people during modular March that it ends up at the user level through some tokens um or at you know the microservice level ends up recouping that and then because it's more granular uh they can end up passing that back to

a to a more uh precise community that they're trying to Target so I'm curious H how do you guys Rec like what when you think about value acrel in the integrated thesis is it one or is it is it the other or is it something totally different where value flow honestly I think it's just insanely more nuanced it's not like does it go to the module or does it go to the monolith uh I think certain modules are going to be far more uh capable of capturing value than others is like one Nuance we can throw in there and so I think we're going to see like a wide distribution of some layers of this are probably going to be far more commoditized uh than others others will probably have like

significant ability to capture value so I I don't think it's as much about like do all the modules capture this or the users I think it's like some modules will probably capture uh asymmetric value compared to other modules that are out there um and it's more about kind of Distributing the cost of operating this infrastructure ac across those different modules rushi what's your take on this I think value cre is a meme um like it doesn't matter like first of all like there's no real definition of value Cru like da layers make like $100 a week and there's still like obviously very well funded projects and mind sure and good tokens and whatnot um so like there's two answers if you're looking at Value Cru from like who generates the most amount of fees um and who has more

control of the fees I would say that's probably the execution ler um because like I could wake up tomorrow and make my L2 twice more expensive um for like five cents or 10 cents and users have to deal with that um whereas dealers like if I'm Twi if I jack up the fees I'll just go to the next dealer um I think the value Cru to those that build e system um and creat sticky effects like if you have like five different D layers um and they all like are competing on like fees they're all can drive each other down right but if they have likeus and they have a EOS system and like a culture um the fees markets don't really matter so the value always uh crues to the the ecosystem Builders so whether it's a layer two level getting daps on board um liquidity providers etc for

like d layers and sequencers you have less of a direct e system you have more of like a Tob play but still it's like who can lock in the best vendors that have the most value um but I I think that gets more trickier because like that becomes like okay in six months I can hop to the next hottest girl which is like the cheaper dealer the faster one the new well funded one um while like L2 E Systems and L1 E Systems have like their own protocols their own Builders um which are more longterm in theory that stay out stay around for like years okay um coming back to this uh kind of integrated uh uh the second push back here that I think that is is relevant like okay so we have a blockchain which has a like

some parts ens Shrine like I think movement is a good example here we can talk about Aly as well right you guys have your own shared sequencer you guys have your own execution environment but you know you'll use a different uh data availability layer Celestia aan aail something um you know you'll kind of Outsource some parts but enshrine some others like like what makes movement like more integrated than something like uh or more integrated or less modular or kind of like where's it where's the line missan versus something like like am man who is just like a general purpose L2 that uses zkm and or currently op stack eventually KVM I've heard but uses Celestia for da where they're like a modular L2 yeah so I think you have like

the vend diagram where you have like modular or you have like monic and then modular and then you have this overlap so like the monic crash like the saas the monads the apos andu that end to endend develop their own stack not using really any of the providers you have the majra crowd which is pretty much like focus on one layer of the stack so Celestia espresso Etc um they're focus on like sequencing only uh da only you have like this weird vent diagram where it's like okay what do you call like the mantas and the movements and like the omnes of the world they're using different parts of the stack um but trying to bring their own use case to Market so I think think like the more experimentation you have the more integrated you are so like for us we

have so many different moving pieces and we're trying to combine things while like a traditional conduit L2 and Celestia I wouldn't argue is very integrated I would still put in the integrated bubble um but they probably wouldn't claim the title as much um similar to like how like I da kind of mod um but they're not really pushing forward the narrative per se um but yeah in your example Manta like they're more of op stack L2 on celes they're not bringing like they're not execution layer they're not essentially experimenting pretty much on any layer of the stack really um what we're really focus on a completely new VM a complet new sequencer so I would argue that's more integrated um but still like if you're using any VM on Celestia you combining like Manta has ZK evm I'm not

too familiar with them but um if you combine that zkm with Celestia I would say that's integrated because that's two novel Technologies you're bringing together yeah I think they're eventually getting there I think they're still just op stack but okay so basically the thesis here is like the the very use case specific chains uh and and kind of like teams those are like extremely modular uh in the sense that they just focus on one part of the stack but then basically the idea here is that if you put part these different parts of Stack together then you know like you said like a modular plus a modular becomes an integrated stack or an integrated chain the question is like what do you call it alt like alt VM I hate the word but alt VM

dml2 yeah yeah right which we think is like yeah like we think that's the best path forward for like rollups something like movement new VM useing Alda use some sort of shared sequencer that's like so many miles ahead of like a traditional eth rollup yeah I think one way to conceptualize this is historically people people have tried to create all l1s and they you know they've made various trade-offs but they had to build this like whole stack and run this entire s and that takes so much effort to roll that all out whereas a more like modular integrated you know like uh if we're looking at what an integrated chain could be so Omni is uh like an

integrated chain for example but it's not an all L1 like it's not trying to compete with ethereum at all it actually complements the ethereum infrastructure stack so I think it also enables people to build more uh like Cooperative synergistic Technologies than just trying to compete over being like the L1 that people use I think we've seen an innovation cycle where there was about four to five years where people really competed on just trying to be that execution layer as an L1 itself but now what we're able to do is we're able to build chains themselves that specifically augment other chains like ethereum and L2 environments where we can experiment with different virtual machines so that I think it's almost if we zoom out it's a more uh productive way for us all to like work together as

an industry to improve the technology stack the conclusion I'm coming to is that integrated is is all of these modular components without the fragmentation problem yep that's that's that's the goal yeah I mean like piece them all together in a way that isn't chaos because we're in we're in chaos world right now where it's like super difficult to hop around and use these different things so it should be abstracted yeah I mean if you guys go check the E Charlie guys posted right it was like different dealers different executioners from improvers and it's like 100 teams and as user I'm just like what the hell does this mean like I'm not going to use use I'm not actually going to use a d I'm not going to actually use a proving Network these are things that are supposed to be in the back end but you need teams like

movement and Omni to actually build a technology that people are using every day like the thesis is you want to use a deck that has CES the hood the share sequencing alt VM like those are what that's what we're really optimizing for right um and you kind of need this e system of l1s and l2s they're building E Systems of applications Builders Etc they're actually using the EOS system um say e five times but um using that like all the providers that you guys listed that hasn't really happened yet it's pretty fragmented it's like I'm just going to build a DA layer and no one's going to use it and I'm going to launch token call it a day um but then what what happens after that how do you actually get the transactions how do you actually build blocks that are useful I think as well um just thinking about all

these like different components that uh we're scaling out here like ultimately what's there's this other meme of chain abstraction right now right and I really think that the like concl inclusion of the integrated thesis is implicitly chain abstraction like users will not think beneath a certain level of the stack and that is a good thing because it'll make it infinitely easier to use these different things so from my perspective at least like an implicit theme of integrated design at large is chain abstraction because really that just means like make the users not think about uh the infrastructure awesome you said exactly what I was thinking just now like you know we had the modular push all of these lazy projects that were really really hyp specialized on

one part of the stack which was really important really necessary now we get this integrated push which is coming at it from the other angle where we don't want the fragmentation problem of all these little tiny microservices operating in a silo and now what do we have we have this chain abstraction push which is trying to integrate all those modular parts and they're calling it orchestration and they're calling it chain abstraction and they're calling it uh like the composability layer what orchestration whatever it is that they're calling it but ultimately they're all trying to push the modular components into an integrated uh bundle or an integrated like stack and so do you guys tend to like kind of see this phenomenon do you see how do you see this playing out do

you see modular components ultimately getting getting integrated by these chain abstraction protocols what does that state look like [Music] cartei is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartei enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to C.O that's cars.io to learn more about building

your own app chain today I mean I would say it's more infrastructure abstraction for what we're doing like again like the you the average user doesn't want to use a d the average user doesn't want to use a sequence or just want to trade meme coins in a decks so we're trying to optimize for the best deck meme coin trading experience um so in that regard it's like we're abstracting with the infrastructure we're making sure that you don't need to use you don't even know his dealer you don't even know what the sequencer is you're just simply having the best user experience on ethereum um so from like a ler 2 point of view and what we're trying to build is infrastructure abstraction where I guess like you can say chain abstraction too because celes is a chain and like a is going to launch a chain and stuff

like that um so like I would say from our angle is Chance traction but more focused on infrastructure where all the underlying lazy parts are tracted away so you don't need to even know about that I think Austin's and omni's approach is more directly to instruction yeah yeah I mean I think I think framing it is infrastructure exraction is like slightly more precise um even though a lot of these things really are chains like defending you know independent of what they call themselves um it is about abstracting this all away from end users and I think the conclusion of this will be super exciting in the sense that we'll have chains that will be free to use for end users uh where you will just have like native account abstraction you can sign in with email and you'll be

able to use it like you will any other website um and you won't even really necessarily need to know it's crypto behind the scenes but you will be getting those like composability properties out of it so I'm super excited for where we actually go with this I think it's about far more than just uh making it so that users don't have to think about which role up they're on I think it's about empowering users with experiences that like fundamentally we have not been able to create uh previously in crypto and I specifically think this is very important because obviously crypto is a very like uh yeah there's there's a ton of gambling in crypto right now most of our uh like most widely used applications are very speculation based but I think fundamentally that comes from the fact that we like force people to buy a volatile asset and then send it

to these networks in order to participate in these things and I think that puts people in like kind of a more Degen mindset I think as we move into a world where we have just like natively zero gas applications you don't need to think about a seed phrase or anything we'll have like a much wider array of applications that people can build and this has been something that people have been complaining about for the past like year or two like where are the applications where are the applications like we make people like buy a highly volatile asset and then send it to a network before they can do anything like it's very difficult to create exciting applications when that is the first time on boarding stuff and I think we're going to moove that soon here and um just want to give you a chance to to uh

talk about octane as well um you guys just pushed that out curious to to kind of to understand like why that why you guys are working towards what this concept of octane brings and kind of what that will enable Omni to do as well for this kind of modular integrated World um that that we're getting into yeah so for anybody who's not familiar Omni is a chain specifically build so that people can build applications across all rollups and they'll just be able to use like access users from everywhere the way that we achieve this is really three key components we have an execution layer we have a consensus layer and then we have effectively like an aggregation layer of rollups where we can look at state from across all these

different rollups um the kind of aggregation layer is uh some more custom onni specific stuff that we built but the way that we designed the key chain here that has like execution and consensus is through combining the engine API with ABCI 2.0 and so this is the first time that we're able to take like standard ethereum execution clients and maybe more Frontier ones like ref that are coming out and then pair it with like high performance consensus algorithm so what this gives us is an evm chain that has extremely fast finality um this is a very generally useful thing the industry has been trying to get the output of something like this for many years um and yeah we're just like super pro open source so we designed this architecture for for our chain and we received a ton of

inbound from other teams that were interested in using this and so yeah we open sourced it and we think you know it's something that many other teams are already developing on uh but doing very different things with it's very helpful to have just this Bas integrated frame chainwork or integrated chain framework uh for other people to build their specific use cases on so yeah I mean honestly I was pretty surprised teams would reach out and like hey can you help me figure out how to like config this predeployment framework at large so yeah very excited for where this will go because it's just like a really nice high performance chain out of the box then people can tack on their specific use case on top of it so first Evo and Cosmos no no no it's so I mean the cool

thing here is like you can use consensus alos from Cosmos but you can also use like narwhal bullshark for example you can plug that in as long as it's using ABCI 2.0 and then you canare it you could use a movm with it if it if it complied to the engine a API but we use an evm so at large it's about taking high performance consensus alos with the ideal execution environment that you want rushi let me take this one why why are you using an evm and not the movm uh because specifically for us it it could make sense for some need to use a mve VM with this for their use case for us specifically we're targeting people being able to uh build across the entire ethereum rollup ecosystem and a vast majority of people use the evbm

today so it's much EAS easier to have this kind of global State layer uh operating as an ebm but you could have really cool transpilation interfaces so that you could build and move and propagated to other evm uh environments as well fortunately we're evm compatible so I'm good with that too you did say Global State layer which is something that Andy and I have been playing around with like ideologically here for a little bit what what's your you know we've seen this from like the intense framework like trying to build like a global intent me pool other people are just trying to do it at the Shared sequencer layer and combine all of these State like the blockchain States from all these rollups generally like how what is your approach to This Global State layer and and you know what what does that look like in practice

yeah so that's basically what Omni is um the Nuance here is that it's not all the state from everywhere uh all the time uh it's specifically what developers choose to put there so you can imagine something like a lending protocol um where you know people your lending protocol could accept deposits from across all these different domains and you can kind of do Global accounting at the Omni layer you don't necessarily need to like Bridge tokens there as long as you have a view into what's going on across all these different domains you can like have uh an application that remains solvent and you know has whatever properties that you're looking for and so our perspective there is just like allow like effectively give developers a place to put Global state

but not put so much uh burden on it that it has to have like all roll up state from everywhere it's more just like precisely okay what like variables do we want to store in This Global stal and we do that like tldr we use reaking to secure uh the like State sourcing across all these different bus and that's kind of the Omni specific component buil on top of octane amazing RI got one for you here sir and then we'll uh we'll wrap up a little bit less spicy actually I'm going to save my spicy one for after the community has a question for you but the first question that I have more technically is when you guys enshrine things like like your share sequencer um is kind of like the main thing that I think of movement kind of opting to enshrine versus kind of using like

espresso or as your one of these others like what benefits do you get from like having that kind of inhouse rather than Outsourcing from like Risk level from security interoperability these types of things I've talked multiple times you guys about this but I was always like bearish B2B share sequencers because ultimately like if I'm joining a network the main thing I want is go to market support like if I'm a L2 or like let's say I'm like rwa L2 or gaming L2 I want to tap into like an optimism super chain like arbitrum orbit because it's liquidity there users as Builders as mind share I'll get Cod cheated by the arbitrum page like these things are actually important for protocols they're looking to build their own brand whereas things like especially Great Tech

probably better Shar te than us I would admit and because they last like three years focusing on that um but like they don't have their unique system like you don't get anything from a B2B point of view from joining um existing sharey conc probably yelled that for saying this but like for us it's like optimism and arbitrum when you have existing L to that has tvl has users has his mind share has a network of rollups you're joining like a family where it'll be pushed together by his entire system from a g Market point of view as well as the tech obviously great right like the huge value prop and the main value prop for shared sequencers is cross rollup transactions accessing liquidity across in chains for existing B2B Shar sequencers there is no liquidity to access there's no current chains live so

this doesn't make sense for them to even have like if I'm at L2 it doesn't make sense for me today to opt into using that sequencer whereas I can go to like a movement go to optimism and be like there are already five l2s have all raised Capital there's obviously going to be a lot of liquidity there going to be a lot of Builders it makes more sense to go there so going back to original Point like the shared sequencer like obviously the tech is great and it's good to use that but the main reason for opting in it as a builder or using the ins Shar sequencer is purely go to market for how do I join a network that's going to help me amplify my use case and also get the liquidity that a shared sequencer optimizes for um whereas like traditional B2B options

there's no real value capture that at present once these shared sequencers get you know let's say like you know when right soon TM but like when they have an ecosystem of 10 rollups that they're working with 20 rollups then don't you wouldn't you then be able to tap in but you're saying for the current state this is is how it is now I mean if they manage the rollups in God speed like then that's a great e system go join but today as far as I know um the major l2s in the world aren't on these existing bdb share sequencers they're in the super chain they in orbit orbit and like soon our we announc um so today and for the next six months I don't see any reason yeah some move stack coming soon

the community question that I'm that I've been Fielding is um when uh when are we going to be able to use movement uh we see all these applications coming on Twitter a lot of hype coming from rousi man's Twitter account but uh when sir the test night coming up in next few weeks I'm excited for that um and a huge campaign that we're excited to announce um it's going to be one of the bigger L2 campaigns in this space awesome man good stuff guys well thank you guys for coming on and sharing your thoughts um happy to always chat with you all and keep crushing it guys thanks Andy thanks aome cheers guys