Do You Believe in Stablecoins and RWAs as Crypto's Core? With Chris Yin

Transcript

what crypto actually is is it's a network it's a network of people it's a network of dollars network of use cases a network of new things it is an asset and you know this this protocol gives the ability to tokenize that asset what's your take on the stable coin more than you like tether versus usdc welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone.

Finance to find out more Chris e Denver uh first podcast on the rollup maybe you want to do a quick intro about yourself what you guys are building at plume yeah yeah totally thanks for having me um yeah I'm Chris I'm uh the co-founder and CEO of plume um and we build a chain and Network an ecosystem focused on bringing the real world on chain right and that includes rwas and a bunch of things but really we want to make it easy for people to interact with the real world in a Crypton native way uh and deal with these things on chain and then be able to swap and deal with both of these things at the same time right following the lead of the stable coin and how we do things today and we think that's a way to sort of balance out what happens

in crypto today and on eventually on board a bunch of people and bunch of capital into the system so anyway that's kind of what we're doing our last podcast I mean was at the other end of the barbell you've essentially got this barbell of of one pure Financial speculation and onchain gambling and you got pump fun and salana and all and that's got product Market fit right so I'm not not trying to hate on that but on the other side of the barbell you've got the boring stuff but with product Market fit you've got stable coins you got our W is and there's just as much adoption on that side of the barbell as there is on this side and so most recently people have gotten disillusioned melee trumpcoin down on like it's just the cabals are just too extractive and too predatory for any

kind of sustainable like wealth building and Longevity on this side though like that still seems possible right so on the stable coin and the rwa side you know we've got $140 billion Black Rock t-bil fund that's getting tokenized with securitized right and so that seems to and and I've just been kind of preaching this right as like this is kind of you know for everyone who's disillusioned with meme coins and jaded from that let's go on this side of the barbell we've got product Market fit here do you think this is the right way to think about things with bringing this world on chain or what generally what is your mental model when it comes to the product Market fit that we have in some of these less speculative boring but very very real products in totally look

I mean I think look the honest answer is RS have caught a bit of a bid in the last couple weeks right and uh it's because of the mcoin stuff right people are getting rugged by Trump Melania Malay and they're sort of rotating back into saf or stable things quote unquote right um this has always been a thing right it just used to just be stable coins right uh the original the only that's been a thing and now it's progressing to things like T bills or whatever else might be right now I I I think this like the increased attention on rwa has been interesting to watch because you realize very quickly that most people have no [ __ ] idea what they're talking about when it comes to rwas and 99% of the stuff is wrong right not most people really think of it as

simple as this which is Larry fin has got 12 trillion at Black Rock right crypto is 3 trillion today and so if Larry fing comes into crypto he's going to buy my bags we're all going to get rich and sing happily ever after right that's just not what's happening right Larry is actually coming in today to dump his bags on us right he's bringing in the Black Rock money market fund he's extracting cash out of crypto to look to grow AUM for his fund right but doesn't help grow crypto at all right and so the original premise behind like what this is has not happened yet right now the reason through the the mechanics of like how Larry comes in and dumps on us like what is totally how does that happen totally look so the in my opinion there's kind of two sides of it one is I

think most rwa stuff today is Trad five people doing stuff on chain right and they think of crypto more as like a database right they sort of like if you look go back to sort of like you know financial institutions you had on- Prem stuff then you had cloud and now they're like oh we'll do stuff in crypto right and when you use any of these products go to Franklin Temple Benji as an example right like you go to the web app and the web app is the primary thing not the wallet right and then you choose where to settle right so if I buy some t- Bill on there I have to go through this whole KYB KC thing I got a QP up blah blah blah and then I choose do I set do polygon or ARB or eth or whatever it might be right and that's just

[ __ ] right because at the end of the day like the problem with with that is it's like going to Facebook right and choosing which database to to save your message to right like am I going to use my SQL or no SQL or whatever might be nobody gives a [ __ ] right the technology doesn't matter and every time you try to upgrade a system from a sort of backend technology standpoint it's always the same thing it's slow nobody cares right and it just never gets the attention right that's why most fan sols are still on mainframes they're not even the cloud so the idea that immedately going to Port everything to the blockchain is ridiculous it's just not a thing right and so if you think about it that way which is 99% of the stuff right now there's been a shift though recently

right and that's been the history behind R so just why everything is permission chains it's boring [ __ ] that's why we've never touched any of this stuff right now the newer stuff though is is actually good right in the sense that they've basically hired a bunch of crypto people right they've hired a bunch people from consensus and Galaxy and all these places to come in and kind of figure out what to do here and really they've shifted their mentality to more how we see crypto which is crypto is not a technology it's not a database right it's actually a very shitty database right what crypto actually is is it's a network it's a network of people it's a network of dollars network of use case a network of new things right and if you tap into that you can shift your mentality from I can use this new

database to save money on fun admin to instead how do I make money right uh and how do I build new products and new services for a new audience right and things that are more in that vein right um and so that's where they're going now and that's kind of what this is they're bringing in these products right because that's what they looking do Larry think he's trying to grow AUM that's all it is right at the end of the day right it's very simple there's only two things that anyone cares about this world it's saving money and making money right um and so that's what they're trying to do they're coming into crypto to grow AUM by bringing their products here to find a new set of customers that they historically have had access to now the problem with that is right is they've

hit the limit right because when you come at this from a Crypton native perspect oh sorry a trafi perspective right you're still bringing trafi products on chain right have you guys used ble no exactly right I haven't either right nobody uses bid right it's like six customers go to RB y z and look at how many people use bidd look at how many people use OSG look how people use any of these products right it's the same people it's sandip polygon it's moap it's it's it's the five or six foundations that do all of this [ __ ] that's all it is and that's why they've tapped out right because that's what it's they're bringing a trafi product on chain which means has the same trafi experience the same trafi use case the same tra which is great there just aren't that many Trad Trad likee

institutions on chain yet so you're going to very quickly tap that that that market right and so our perspective has always been you know change never starts from the Trad side first and from the top down side right uh change always starts from the bottoms up right where's individual use case right if you look at the stable coins example the stable coin is a perfect example the stable coin started off solving Crypton native problems today it's used for all kinds of [ __ ] right but it started off solving Crypton native problems it was a defi thing was way to hold value way to have tighter trading pairs all this kind of stuff right it started there and then over time as it sort of gained adoption usage then you had uh other use cases emerge out of it right the emerging qualities were one Emerging Markets

could hold uh value in this right US dollars right number two then institutions realize that now you have enough people holding it you can do crossb payments and all this kind of stuff things that are obvious to us but just took time to get there right and so to me that's kind of where we come in from you have to start Bottoms Up in order to make sure that when the Trad folks come to the table we have ball control and we have an ability to sort of help dictate how to build these products that make it work for me you and everybody else versus just rebuild the same [ __ ] we had in the Trav World on chain so so given that black rock is trying to grow AUM um is there not a configur here that means they can grow AUM and us

as users and individuals can also grow and build well through some of these mechanisms for instance make this a win-win yes right they come in uh and debunk this thesis because this is one one place where my mind goes here how this could work they come in they provide $140 billion on chain okay now we have uh 140 billion in new potential collateral we can borrow against that and all of a sudden now we have a 100 billion that's borrowed against the 140 now we have 240 right and then we can inject that 100 into altcoins into defi use it in collateral we have more liquidity right better better Capital efficiency more flows and and overall more uh liquidity in the system for

everyone they grow AUM they're able to go and get get yield on all of these products and all this AUM that's on chain then all of us benefit from the better liquidity and all of this new investment that's made into more onchain products is is that true all true there's a slight hang up in it though the unfortunate truth is when you start from the Trad five folks first and try and get them to come in the product is going to it sounds right and it sounds great right but it's not going to work unfortunately truth is like you're going to have to QP right all these products are QP what Q me qualified purchaser you need a $5 million net liquid balance to even participate in this it's a $100,000 minimum to even do this it's a quarterly withdrawal right and there's no transfers right for most of these

products right so immediately 99% of the audience in crypto is gone right and so that's the issue sure in theory it makes sense in practice nobody uses these things because the experience is absolute ass because they don't understand the crypto these things matter a lot right crypto native features are instant liquidity permissionless right and and the ability to sort of take it with you and make it composable they're missing all those things today so it's not going to work that's why our perspective you got to start Bottoms Up to force them to the table to allow and now it's happening yeah right so then what what are some of these products that have that are going to reach product Market fit in the future from the bottoms up that are appealing to crypto natives then yeah yeah I mean I think what are some of

these like what what are you guys yeah perspective there there's two ways to look at it one is the existing crypto Market what's good for them and two what are good for net new people coming in that would want to purchase now let's start with the net new stuff because it's AIT more straightforward right there's there's um if we follow the path of the stable coin right the stable coin to me is the only RB that matters everything else is [ __ ] right uh the stable coin matters right and if you look at the path of stable coin where does the stable coin work today the stable coin Works in Latin America right Brazil uh is is the second largest uh stable coin uh user on the planet right uh you've got things like Latin America and more generally you have things like Africa Eastern Europe all these places

right so if you look at any economy that's built around the stable coin right they're all fairly early in their cycle of understanding kind of financial tools right you look at Africa as an example the idea of a savings account is not a thing yet right and so introducing them savings tools is not a thing but in Latin America it's it's further along right and so you can now introduce things that are sort of like you know holding the US Treasury right and getting a 5% apy or you know some sovereign debt or corporate bond or whatever and getting 678 or whatever that's a great product for them right and so that's One Direction you can now QP up right like again that's the issue you have to change it so is that not a regulatory issue to make all of these products gate kept by this regulatory

qualified purchaser like accredited investor type of uh like wall that they have to cross in order to get access to these products yes it is an issue uh but is it a regulatory issue or is it a technical one it's a regulatory issue but there are ways around it right um and that's how we we have to get creative with it and make it work right again today you look at die right there's two ways to do it you do it the proper way which is called a transfer right so I own XYZ thing you buy the token now you have to up like basically cap table's got to get updated right that says that you now own this thing right that's number one number two though is you can do the sort of indirect version right which is you're transferring economic ownership right you're just getting the value so take D

and S die right the the best way to get D today in permiss the best way to get the US Treasury today right is through S die right um right you buy diet you stake it you get S die and now you're getting a pass through of what's happening in the maker Vault right um You Don't Own the treasuries if something goes wrong you're still you're still screwed right but you're now getting at least from a smart contract you can see what's happening and you can get the economic interest in that right and so that's the way to do these things you do these wrapped version you do the pass through you do economic interest you don't do underlying transfers you have to find the right institutions are comfortable with that risk though okay so you have a custodian that holds the regulated asset you wrap that regulated

asset that that that regulated bundle of assets and the custodian then issues this wrapped version of this asset and passes the yield along to the end end holder that's right okay that's right and like you know we've heard of bid right they've made a lot of noise around it um we've also we've done podcast with them and and you know these products are available on chain um but they're not they're not available or accessible to those end users right right what are some examples of protocols that like are out there right now doing this from the bottom up yeah yeah there's so there are two different ways to to think about this one is more classic financial instruments right and then number two is going to be more esoteric assets and so we could talk about financial instruments are pretty simple right like

it's selling to the US that's always complicated if you just gate off the US and you do a rap version you take a publicly traded a public a liquid asset and distribute that way it's actually not that hard right there are some hoops to jump through but you can make it work right so I think that's the first step find institutions that are comfortable with it right most things are just slow that's just the reality the things just like take time right but like a lot of them are getting more comfortable with this idea right right which is you need to do some rap version you need to like gate off the transfer restrictions the rights the owner like the voting RS all this kind of stuff you have to like gate that off and just pass the economic interest and make sure it's worth orwh

that's what that's what everyone's thinking right Franklin Franklin templon is a TR is is um is a multi- trillion dollar asset manager right today even black rocks 12 trillion right you look at today um Biddle has what 600 mil on chain I would totally was 140 billion yeah no it's not true just go to XYZ and you can look at it like they sure they tokenize and that's that's another distinction everyone in rwb is like we've tokenized much I mean look plume has tokenized $20 billion stuff doesn't mean [ __ ] right so you're saying it's been token it's tokenized but it's not on chain right it's no no one's bought it yet so I could tokenize anything you know I could to it's just like it's classic like it's classic meme Quin [ __ ] right like I'll take I'll buy you know I'll issue a trillion tokens I'll buy

one for a 100 bucks and now it's you know now you have1 trillion dollar exactly it's nonsense right it's [ __ ] at the end it's the buy side that matters supply side doesn't mean [ __ ] so everyone tells you these big numbers we do it too to be honest so I'm not free of I'm not free of blame you know but uh it's nonsense you know it's the Buy side that matters right and if you look at the buy side for any of these things we've not crossed any material numbers for these things right uh even Sonic right in one week has more TV than all these things right so that's the distinction here is the buy side is not here because the problem with taking this more Trad version is it doesn't fit the retail market so you need a Trad buyer right you need the Trad buy side

to come in and they're not coming in for this they can buy the [ __ ] offchain today why would any institution come on chain to buy T bill when it's more expensive right because I'm paying a bunch of fees and it's riskier right like [ __ ] that I'll just buy I can just buy my my broker account right now right yeah and so that's why you have to go bottom you have to is are there any RBA products on chain or teams or projects that you that that aren't just kind of you know he you know he said she said like is there any like real stuff happening innovating Finance Global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to drive Capital efficiency now maximize yields on institutional grade liquid staking with

M unlock trillion dollars of capital via F Bitcoin all of this secured by mantle treasury of billions in stables and E Capital Pools this entire ecosystem is coordinated by a vast network of seasoned BCS that are aiming to create the next generation of Banking and Financial technology this is mantle totally I think look I think um maybe to start with that aren't good right I think I think real estate generally is a tricky category doesn't mean it's bad right I think uh a lot of these regulated assets are tougher right I think private credit is a trickier one even a lot of people talk about doesn't mean it's bad on the other side the things I think are good right I think things again if you focus on liquid

right um very easily accessible so that comes down to things like ETFs things like Clos right things like um treasury bills as an example and also more esoteric stuff things like um solar panels right things like oil wells things that sort of resemble crypto right because at the end of the day what are you trying to do with this stuff you're trying to earn yield that's what this is right so you want to earn yield in a very straightforward way in Texas right they call oil whales mailbox money right so if you own an oil wh you just they just send you the cash right because it's a great business right it just sits there does nothing and same with the solar farm right it does one thing it sits there and it turns sunlight into dollar bills right like check in your mailbox every month that's

what you want right and so those things are outside of the purview of this stuff so it's a little bit more straightforward right and you can do that so which which which crypto companies are building these interesting use cases yeah there's there I mean there's a bunch that are building uh and work with us at plume right and so you know projective is one they do a lot of the the solar panel stuff um uh mineral rights mineral vaults excuse me is the one that does a lot of mineral rights you have things like Sky tray that does like air rights you have uranium 308 that's kind of interesting that does like nuclear right and uranium um you've got a lot of diamond stuff right so uh it's called Tia D diamonds or whatever um you've got a lot of stuff with gold right and like liquid gold I think

that's a really interesting I know a lot of folks that sort of like gamble on [ __ ] rotate into gold right um because they're doomers they kind of think the world's [ __ ] right kind of Stack SATs right yes exactly right so you could stack SATs or go into gold right and so if you can go down that route right and do Rare Earth rare earth metals or Commodities like that's another interesting area right I'd like to get your take on a recent L1 launch which was uh story protocol and you know I was talking to Jason and he was basically describing IP as a real world asset you're right like it is an asset and you know this this protocol gives the ability to tokenize that asset and essentially turn this into mailbox money in the sense that you know just like we

have you know some kind of Revenue producing asset right whether it's solar or or it's minerals or it's uranium or it's a t bill and it's earning interest every month that interest gets you know deposited into your mailbox or gets deposited into your wallet you can own you can own you know licensing rights and you can own intellectual property collateralize it um and those who want to uh leverage it and buy it from you uh can can rent it from you essentially and you know pay you interest on that asset you know what what is your take on you know some of these more esoteric forms of rwas and you know essentially tokenizing these things and making them productive assets yeah I mean we we have IP stuff on plume too um both music art you know uh different IP rights for

cartoon characters and stuff like that too right so you know we have a bunch of stuff too I generally think to be honest it's a little bit um I think it's an adverse selection problem adverse selection adverse selection problem meaning I looked at look I I I was in Venture before and I studied the IP Market a lot right and so actually I know the area pretty well um doesn't mean I know better than the story guys I'm sure they know more than I do but like I remember my my takeaway at that point was very simple which was the labels hold everything right all the good [ __ ] is locked up it's the exact same problems in rwa today all the good stuff why would you put it on Shane right um maybe you can get one or two things on there maybe you get a couple

things for show right but you're not going to get the fundamental stuff right we've done this every single cycle last cycle Drew an Alex of the chain smokers I tokenized an album and it was the back catalog all the stuff it didn't make it on turns out nobody gave a [ __ ] cuz actually the front catalog is all that matters right and so like um there's that right they've done the sort of emerging Spotify artist stuff right like you know I forget there's Royal I forget a couple of them right the one that Blau did right um where like you know you can have a bunch of these artists come together and you can you can like fund the artist right it turns out if the artist needs to come to you for funding it's probably a [ __ ] artist you know is

also the reality right and so there's an adverse selection problem with all this stuff and so generally to be honest I'm like pretty bearish on on like um on IP stuff in general I think you can get some and look they may be different they have a huge amount of resour our es they've got a bunch of like famous people around them I'm sure they have an ability to get stuff and like Kickstart that ecosystem so I'm not knocking them at all but I generally think it's like it's it's one of those things sounds good doesn't make sense you know now where I do think it might make sense to their credit I think is in the AI stuff right I think the bet is entirely on net new sources of Ip right I think existing IP there's almost no way I think it's all for show um but net new IP through

AI I think it's totally feasible that that could be a thing cuz now every person can create stuff right now you can remix stuff and really kind of traces that that I can see and I think that's the bet you know I I truthly think we're a little bit early in that cycle but look AI moves like so quickly that it's not like I don't think it's beyond um belief that like very quickly you know that actually becomes the thing yeah and that I mean that that is quite a big part of like the the the vision I think is to leverage uh AI or or have ai actually as the buy side and the demand for a lot of that IP so that they can leverage it in in you know their their model but do you think this same uh issue applies to RW in the sense that the good

stuff doesn't make it on chain right and and you know to your point earlier essentially um you know there's a distinction though these large funds can get it offchain right so why are they going to bring it on chain and do but the good stuff is stable coins then no that's right exactly isn't that isn't that the good stuff yes exactly there is good like I think the distinction is IP is largely like still speculative you know like you know um and but there are plenty of assets that just are looking for more money right like stable coins like the treasury bill all the they like they just need more cash and they like they'll take as much as we can get and you can spread that throughout the world right the guy in Mexico is not betting on on black Pink's IP rights you know

the guy in Mexico wants to hold the American they want the stable coin they want the US dollar they want US dollar that's what they want right and so I think it's a bit of a different thing but again not to knock them I what's your take on the stable coin War than you like tether versus usdc what's what's your kind of perspective on this from your from The rwa View I think tether's very scary in the sense that like it's hard to see them not winning like taking it all I think there's a big chance all of it like 100% I think they've recently really woken up in a scary way for everybody in the stable coin game you know which is like they're hiring people in the US now they're really getting ready to engage they have more money than God you know um and they can

just buy everything you know and they're getting pretty engaged and pretty active right and the market share is still so dramatically different for them you know they're like 85 plus% everyone is nothing comparatively speaking and so I think it's hard and then especially when you look at crypto today it's so predominantly Asia and you you guys have been Asia it's all tether usdc is not a thing right they prefer that over anything and so I think it's hard it's hard to see a world in which they're not the one but I think it's an area that's super exciting because there's tons of new stuff coming in I think Athena is a classic example like that's awesome because I think it sort of lets you understand money in a way that's not money anymore you know and allows you to sort of think about you know stability

and cash in a way that's not just tied to Pure dollars and so that opens up a lot of stuff and how you can do with that that is I'm like bullish on that Vector versus like new forms of like like take usual as an example I think usual is great too right um and the idea that you passed it to to the user right is a great thing I think there's a lot of potential in that right because it doesn't make sense for tether to hold all the money right it's just so hard to break past that cycle you know like the the stable coin business at at the end it's a very profitable business right in the beginning it's an incredibly unprofitable business it's an incredibly cash intensive and resource intensive business that spits off no money because you're making tiny bips off of nothing

so you just need huge amount of money to make it a thing and so I think it's very hard for any any new company to even remotely challenge them if they can get there those the angles net new some net new way of thinking about money all Athena or giving yield to people and Ling the hold that I think that's also an interesting way to do it both those I think could take it but it would like it's just going to take you know you're going to have to be uh you're going to have to be a Savage to to go against uh daddy tether you know um I agree I mean they're they're at they're at scale right and so like they they can earn a few bips right because that's the business model is they have like like all of these all of these treasuries in

their in their in their treasury right in their vaults they're earning yield on that and then they're just issuing that on chain they're just collecting the the spread yep okay exactly and now they're doing all they're buying agriculture they're buying land they're buying businesses they're doing all kinds of private like they they're they're a huge part of like the rwa world right you would you consider them a bank I think that's where it goes right at the end of the day it's a bank you put your deposits there right today they don't give you [ __ ] the minute they decide to pass it back no one like all these things are done you know because they could do it in a heartbeat right they start to pass the yield back to the user and the holder all of a sudden like it becomes a very challenging World cuz

they can do the same thing as maker they can subsidize for a long time right and really get used out for growth so but that's exactly what it is right a bank takes deposits you trust them that they don't [ __ ] around with it and they don't lose it they do stuff with it and they give you money back tell the exact same thing today said they don't give you [ __ ] they just keep it all right and the minute the market and this happened in the financial bank in in in in in like the real world too right in in banking back in the day when it was just gold right they didn't give you [ __ ] over time through competition they forced you to give to money back the depositors because it was competition so that's exactly what's happening here right and

the same thing will happen and when that damn breaks they have all the money in the world to like you know subsidize and and Juice growth and so that'll be a scary thing I mean scary how like what you know like a scary thing in terms of like the size that they could potentially reach meaning if I'm a stable coin startup like yeah and also like I you know tether like you know sort of like you know unclear Origins and you know some kind W there the bit finex so kind of as we come to a close here Chris what is is uh what is on your mind for for plume how does plume not become just a one cycle project like how do you guys make this something that lasts long term and what like what's the most important thing that you're focused on RB are going to be everywhere right

I'm not an RBA Maxi for one and I'm also not a plume Maxi in a sense that like obviously I care about plume but I'm also not like every AR only be on plume that's not a thing it's already not a thing right like the way I think about it is plume should be the the market for rwa is so astronomically large right relative to cry again $3 trillion a the tiniest sliver of offchain stuff is multiple hundreds of trillions right and so you're talking about several hundreds of orders of magnitude larger than crypto today so if we take a look at all that stuff today right a lot of this needs a lot of care to bootstrap and get into crypto right like this [ __ ] is not like just dumping in here people will buy it we've already seen it's is not a

thing right even something as simple as the US dollar took this long to get here right let alone t- bills which hasn't really become a thing all these things require and I talk to these Financial all the time right a bunch of our investors and like it takes a tremendous amount of time so like building the rails and building the experience and just doing Simple Stuff being a human calling again on the phone working on steak and golf and like all that kind of [ __ ] and getting them in that's a whole thing to bring on and the idea is we bring them in right through plume by having this full stack approach we combine software liquidity users community ecosystem all this into one thing so when you go to another chain you don't have to do 10 things to like get this asset on chain right you can

just come to plume do it all build your kind of customer base build the sort of ecosystem right and then you should go to wherever you got to go right I like I'm totally fine like you have English that's why we did Skylink recently with layer zero right we're not streaming yields all these other chains right we're like we're more of pro like multi-chain I think it should be anywhere and money's going to move to where it wants to move you know and people going to go where they want to go forcing to stay on plume is just not a thing right so I think we use what we are good at which is building community building this ecosystem and building this infrastructure to tie it all together so when you come here as a financial institution it's a lab for you to get going and for you to prove this

initial demand for the product help and let us help you synchronize the whole thing you know secur a bunch of folks have tried to go to other ch and done this exact thing and theyve taken 6 9 12 18 months and not been able to get anywhere cuz this is not the focus when they come to us we can do it much faster because we're focused on this thing and the entire EOS is aligned to do this and so to me that's where it goes that cycle will take a long long long time right because we're we've not even gotten to T bills yet right let alone corporate bonds let alone sovereign debt let alone private credit let alone all the [ __ ] trillion things out there right derivatives real estate gold Commodities every single thing every single one is going to take a whole cycle on its own

so I think that's going to continue to be a thing each time we go we'll continue to build plume and hopefully we then make it successful enough that we can then distribute to everywhere else as well right just like the stable stable is everywhere today there's no stable coin chain I guess there are some now that are coming up but like you know um the stable coin is everywhere that's how it should be um so that that's that's like our take on plume which is like focus on end users focus on Crypton native because I think that's where the initial adoption is right um and make it I think the distinction really is make sure it's useful for us right um because I do think that replicating trafi [ __ ] is just stupid you know like it doesn't work for all kinds of reasons we want to

do this in cryp with crypto ideals it's permissionless it's decentralized right it's owned by the people right it's it's it's sort of like a censorship resistant all of that and if you're going to do that you have to start it with this use case and this experience and this and this thing and so to get the institutions to come to that mindset is a whole thing to do and so that's like our I think the thing that we care most about getting them to the table and then having them work their products in to fit this use case and once it's there I think they'll see incredible adoption and growth and then then it will be a foregone conclusion like people will know okay cool if we're going to sell to this Market which is a new set of people if you were to go to new country today

you don't Market it the same way right and if you were to sell a new set of people on chain you don't just Market the same way so it's like very simple basic stuff it just takes time you know and so I think if we just do this right it's multiple multiple cycles and it just it should be a net positive for all of crypto right um new users and for every chain for every ecosystem right and new use cases for everything yeah slowly and then all at once yeah yeah definitely I think it's you know the days long the years are short you know it's going to be it's going to be a thing you know just like today we look back at um defi right it feels like a long time it's been like 3 years you know has like nothing you know so like

it's it's uh these things will happen very quickly when they take off appreciate your time Chris have a great rest of your week here in Denver yeah yeah thanks for having me guys thanks cheers