Design in the ‘New’ Industrial Age

Transcript

all right all right so it's been a long time from the south side of Chicago I sure am I sure am I sure am um so with a couple interesting things just to before everyone knows you as a one of the best designers when it comes to shoes when it comes to just cultural Aesthetics but one of the things that for you is that you call yourself not just like an entrepreneur or designer but more so like a polymath and so like what what does that mean like when you're thinking about just the overall like how you conceptualize yourself yeah thank you for that question it's a pleasure to be here by the way I I understand that you're all taking time away from running your company so I don't take your time for granted so when I think about any human endeavor you have to have a

multitude of tools to be able to accomplish the thing you want to accomplish so as a creative I have to look at technology I have to look at leather cotton rubber paint everything as a new medium of expression but I also have to look at bodies of knowledge as a way to change how I may attack a problem so when I think about being a polymath in culture you'll call it a multi-if in it but for me I just grew up broke so I had no choice had no choice but to be very creative about how I use the things in my environment in a new want way and I led me down multiple Paths of pursuing technology development careers cultural aesthetic careers narrative careers Academia teaching and for me curiosity is the greatest form of self-expression so as long as I remain curious I can

always have a way to respond to where humanity is headed got it yeah so it's just really like a combination of being able to incorporate those three values all into one to everything that you do absolutely yeah and so when you you know now working at one of the world's most iconic Brands I mean everyone understands that Jordan logo and so but for you like you you start uh you know 23 years ago ironically uh you started off actually as an intern uh as a as a for for the Jordan brand and you know like I said in the beginning coming from the south side of Chicago to now working with such an iconic brand like tell us about that journey and that experience going through the IDE Ma and understanding a lot of the different

verticals of of going from an intern to now being the you know running the show yeah I would say it started um for me as seven years old I was a child uh who was constantly in the hospital so I had what was called septicemia which almost uh took my life it was a severe blood infection and I couldn't physiologically do what my peers were doing but creatively and cognitively I was very immersed in the world of comic books I wanted to be Dr Lucius Fox the guy who made gadgets for Batman and I figured Michael Jordan has to be Bruce Wayne he had to be Bruce Wayne so at seven I decided that if I could be part of his narrative part of his legacy and create his gadgets then somehow my life and my journey would have a value to it so I

wrote letters to Nike um before you know email and all the things that you have access to now and I got rejected numerous times they put phone numbers on advertisements and those phone numbers went to pre-recorded content and then I eventually figured out on the back of the shoe box they had their actual headquarters phone number 503 671 6453 Nike was spelled I call I tell them I'm 10 years old I'm 11 years old I want to work at Nike person on the other end of the line said look here little girl you prob I was like wait like come on F like broke my heart but I I told him like listen I really want to work here and it was the first time I had heard the word internship and the reason why I emphasized the power language is people are limited by what

they actually could understand so if I had never heard the word internship I never would have had the vehicle for me to go from the south side of Chicago to Beaverton Oregon cu the only thing I knew about Oregon was playing the Oregon Trail which is a game that you play a great game I played that in I'm telling you man and I thought I needed to have cattle and I needed to avoid getting dissenter that's all I knew about Oregon um so becoming the first intern in Jordan brand at the age of 19 um meeting Michael with within the first 24 hours of getting there and having him ask me you know my journey and my story it changed the perception of what was possible for me cuz it's only crazy until you do it and I was a kid who would be made fun of for my crazy ideas

and I'm a person who gets paid to remain crazy so it's a pretty cool balance inject the position from where I started yeah and then I think that just you know being able to see it in real life and not necessarily having I mean you went to school for engineering but then kind of you know really took a little bit of uh I would say a culmination of multiple different degrees in fact you actually created your own degree right I did I did like I don't even know how you do that like I mean I realized that college is a for-profit business and I was paying for a service the service was not providing me value according to my definition so I pulled together biomechanics psychology industrial Design Graphic Design mechanical electrical engineering and I've created this world of my own you know

understanding of how to build for athletes or build for superheroes um now that will be called mechatronics but at that time in 1998 it was just me and a bunch of Interest sneaking into other universities and taking classes that was the fun part like I would go across the street to Wayne State um I was at CCs in Detroit and I would audit courses and I wasn't even a student I figured if as long as I look like I'm supposed to be here and I got your bag and bag notepad no one kicked me out um and it was a blessing cuz I hybridized all these disciplines and now it's a full career path for a lot of kids like me yeah well I think now I mean one of the things that you could probably bring from all of those you know uh those learnings and

and kind of bringing all the the teachings together is kind of what we're talking about with this this new industrial design and so like first of all like what does that mean to you especially when you're thinking about design I mean we have a lot of the you know world's best Founders and engineers and when they think about design often times it's it's looking at a screen right or a product but like for you it's actual physical product but then you know there's this common this bridge between having the the empathy and being able to have people kind of touch and feel and have an emotion to it and you know that happens with shoes that happens with with product so what how do you think about just in in over overall side you know industrial design and what does that mean it's a very profound

question because industrial design was born out of the Industrial Revolution so mass production MH we're now living at the age of mass consumption and so when you think about creation ethos and principles you have to look at the concept of intersectionality so it's no longer industrial design it's intersectional design no one is monolithic you can't assume someone likes certain things based on how they dress whether from their skin color their ethnicity you have to take into account that they may be intersectional I may be a person who only listens to classical music but I love watching a New York Knicks or I love this thing and so when you when you look at how do you build capacity for scale you have to ask yourself what does scale mean to the Nuance community that I'm serving scale could be a billion people or scale can

be super serving a million people with 10 things right and really going deep and consistently giving them you know these experiences these touch points this relationship with your company or your brand because the reality of the moment is you have to have a offensive strategy and a defensive strategy offense is emotional connectivity and narrative defense is product quality and craft when you build those consistently in a cohesive way you have the new operating model for where design and creativity is headed cuz for the first time in humanity you don't have to worry about taking your drawn off the refrigerator M if you feel like you're not creative cuz that's what a lot of us tell ourselves oh I'm not I'm not creative I'm just this at one point we all put our drawings up in a wall and we were told that we could express

ourselves through coloring books and make believe and then it just became about no only certain people can do that technology is flatten the curve of what people could do to express themselves and it's our job to encourage that so I look at it as post-industrial design and it's more about intersectional design and community and relationship well how do you think about that when it actually comes to developing the shoe you know is it the aesthetic of the shoe is it the silhouette do you think about the actual customer who's going to be rocking the shoe or is it okay we need to optimize for the sales and what the current trend is no I optimize for the memory I want to create I'm in the business of creating people's favorite memories when

you get that shoe and you see any kid whoever had wanted to be liked or be accepted you get that thing the night before you go to school at least I did I laid my outfit out I would lay in bed and I would stare at the shoe and I would turn it and rotate it telling myself that tomorrow's the day I'm not going to be made fun of of being a nerd tomorrow's the day that I could feel like I'm part of something bigger than me so when we think about how do we improve quality of product yes it could be about Innovation Material Science manufacturing processes but really it's about relationship how do I design something that can be part of people's favorite moments when they look back on their life where were we at how do we serve them where did we meet them in

their journey of becoming and that's the beauty of of the world that I get to live in is I get to see people put on our product and feel completely better there's a transformation and I I don't take that for granted it's a huge blessing and it's a huge responsibility I mean look I I played ball in high school and college and you know I don't know about y'all but I definitely thought I could dunk with the Jord still think I can science behind that too I wanted want you wanted to be like Mike yeah yeah you know well actually that I'm I'm curious what is your favorite you know your personal favorite Jordan story like not not of Jordan himself but like you know there's so many Jordan shoes like what's your

favorite Jordan story so I have I have two stories I could tell um the first one is the third one you know we got time we got a little time first one is the Air Jordan 4 this is when I knew I was in love with with Footwear when I was a kid because there was this young woman or young girl at that time in my classroom and she came to school wearing a military blue Air Jordan Forest and mind you I had never seen anything like this in my life it was architectural it was expressive it was colorful so I'm staring at her shoes relentlessly for the whole class and I didn't realize what else she was wearing she was wearing biking shorts in a tank top so my teacher thought I was staring at her inappropriately I'm in second grade I'm like what are those what are you doing

why I'm like and I wrist it all to get a look at these shoes I lay on the ground I start staring at the shoe I'm sketching it it was a whole thing um but that told me that there was something about that object that piqu my interest it wasn't at that time an industry it wasn't a vocation um so it really let me know that whatever that thing is that sparked my curiosity I need to feed it um the second story that I love to tell because it just speaks to the humanity of Michael was when I finally got the chance to design the Air Jordan my first presentation to him was in his old home in Chicago so growing up on the south side it was like a myth to be able to go to Michael's house you heard about it you didn't know where it was at you

heard about the 23 on the gate it was like going to Wayne Manor so I get there we roll up I'm super nervous I'm like man I don't know what to say I'm I've known him I've worked with him but now I'm presenting to him my ideas so I said hey um uh Mike can I can I use your restroom and he has this beautiful circular floor that was the Center Court of the Chicago Bull Stadium he had every single Trophy and Accolade in the case the Olympic gold medals the wedy boxes the dunk competition trophies I'm freaking out like y I can't touch nothing this is expensive I go this is before iPhones so you can't you can't just go take pictures no there would have been no pictures being taken I go to the restroom I'm nervous first thing I think of let me call my mom and dad so

at this point I had no knowledge of Acoustics so I call my mom and dad I tell them look I can't believe this I'm in MJ's house I finally did it this is a blessing I'm in there for what I thought was about 2 minutes it was about 15 so I fake it I I turn on the scene I flushed other and he's like yeah yeah yeah tell your mom and dad I said hello and make sure you wash your hands I'm like yo so I come out of the bathroom he's standing there with this big grin on his face and he says you did exactly what you were supposed to do in that moment you celebrated your journey like I'm proud of you I thought I was going to get fired but this man took the time to say you called your parents you

showed respect to them by saying thank you and you allowed them to be a part of your moment you're exactly where you're supposed to be that changed my life it gave me the confidence to continue to show up and bring my family would yeah and I think another thing that it allowed you to do is to remember that you could be your authentic self 100% And then come to work exactly who you are and that you can actually be rewarded for you know when you think oh I do I which way do I go I'm going to go trust my gut and do what feels right for me 100% yeah well I think like you know Jordan is obviously a name that you he doesn't even need his first name right you already know uh and he's created such a brand and I think that even with

with our industry within the crypto side I mean um Darren just gave a report called on the state of crypto and you know the goal is to get to a billion users right and so I think that a billion people know who Michael Jordan is right what are some of the the the skill the requirements or what do you think um if you could you know talk to some of the founders and just in terms of like how to think about building a brand that doesn't just necessarily I I call it hiding the wires where it's like yeah we have these great you know technological infrastructure but you know 99% of the people don't understand the difference between a L2 or ZK rollup or you know you name it right and so how can we think about Our

Brands as Founders and as the industry to really help move forward into that next stage yeah I think I think what MJ did exceptionally well is he humanized himself even though he stood above what we thought was possible for a athlete at that moment the way that he intersected with culture was key he was extremely consistent and I think consistency builds a relationship in a world where everything's changing it takes time for people to trust and so MJ allowed us to trust him because we consistently saw him in the same way in the same rooms doing the same thing so I think that was the first piece as Founders a lot of times you you hear what other people are doing you're trying to figure out do you have to respond to that do you have to play their game the moment you Aces and

play another person's game you've already defeated yourself MJ was his own competitive drive he saw himself as his internal competitor that inner voice that mindset that he carried was masterful cuz he would give himself goals that other people wouldn't he made up imaginary stats of players that didn't exist so when he stepped on the court he had this whole mindset that this person existed this person dunked on him last time so now I'm going to so he he was pushing himself more than his competitors was would another thing that I think he did is he didn't ask anyone else to do something he didn't do himself so he lived by example when we're talking about the democratization of this technology we get it in these rooms we share this language we understand the potential and the power

but for the average person they don't see themselves in that conversation Michael was able to hold himself accountable by bringing people along with his journey because For the First Time when he traveled the world we traveled the world he went to Barcelona with the Dream Team we went to Barcelona with the Dream Team he expanded the borders of the Southside for kids to dream and he expanded the possibility of what it looked like to be great in multiple Endeavors from owning a company to running a brand to being a SP person to being an investor he redefined what it looked like to be the contemporary modern athlete and the third thing he did is he really believes in loyalty we talk about loyalty as a mechanism for retention he thinks about loyalty as a mechanism for elevation if you're around him you want to get better you want to

be better and he celebrates you and he remembers you so when we start to think about technology that you can't touch things that people can't feel the greatest thing you could affect is your relationship with them how you show up so if you want people to adop your product or your technology you have to get to them sooner to let them feel like they're part of the vocabulary part of the conversation that can mean you maybe go and talk with kids that can mean being in a community that can mean bring people in just to ask questions and see where they are with their discomfort or their curios curiosity um Michael does that well and so I would say in today's world you know rules without relationship equal Rebellion so as we set up the rules that govern Society through technology and how

people adopt it we can't forget the emphasis and importance of building true relationship with the people we serve I I say that all the time cuz he's a human beings that are signing up to work with us for us use our products and you forget that it's a person we we could a honestly Overlook somebody that can one day become like us yep yep yep exactly I mean like I mean you're a perfect example of going from starting off as working as an intern all the way to now running the entire show on the design side and so I mean that that's those are very instinctual characteristics of MJ that from on the court to off the court but now with you you have you're running your own team you know how do you think about leadership uh in in this world in

terms of you know just bringing the team together you said I think back said you said there's over 150 designers that are all working together like how do you kind of Channel Unique um you know a synthetic like a the same vision in terms of just really helping to to accomplish those goals now yeah I think um in a modern sense you have to bate the concept of leadership from being a boss we got a lot of bosses people with a title that are ineffective and just manage discreet bodies of work a leader is a steward and I have to Steward people towards an outcome that's beneficial to them first because they're working for a company to do something outside of work that can help them feel better about their life they may be the

first person to go to college they may want their parents to retire they may be taking care of their sibling and so I have to account for that what are you working for and towards also I want to be part of the good part of their day when people go home at work at night and they're talking to their families I don't want to be part of the story where they're like my my boss was XYZ so I think about the life that I've been privileged to live and I'm like when you're a grandparent if you're blessed enough to become one and you're telling your grandchildren what you did in your 20s 30s and 40s I want to be part of the positive side of that narrative so I create shared common memories things that Bond people through these magical EXP experiences at work that give them a

reason to say this is the best part of my day and third I know that my job is to feed their inspiration I ask everybody on my team when I see him two questions what' you do to be creative today what' you do and then we have these fun games where they'll come into my office and before we get into the seriousness of change management we started playing Uno we'll play Connect 4 cuz I'm like remember at the end of the day we're just grown kids exactly we're the same kids who were sketching sneakers in class we're the same kids who were doing math problems and probably going to Bas camp we those kids we just happen to grow up so remembering that at the end of the day we still have the same level of capacity as a child to remain malleable and that creativity is

not a perishable skill set and the older you get the more patient you should be with your craft that helps them to feel like they don't need to be perfect they just need to progress towards outcomes that benefit them and Society so it takes time but really I just love my team I love them intentionally and and in return the love is then transmuted into the product we create yeah and it shows 100% I think one I'm curious even now you know with there's so many new mediums um of whether that can help produce creativity and help produce design right so from you know generative Ai and all these you know new tools that that are supposed to quote unquote

eliminate the designer but I but I know knowing you you're also using these as your as a technological advantage by understanding the the the tool sets how do you think about you know whether it's blockchain Technologies or whether you think it's generative AI to really help get put put the Jordan brand 10 steps ahead in terms of how you're thinking about the future yeah one thing that I do is I don't describe it as artificial intelligence I call it augmented imagination because that's really what the technology does if you don't have taste it doesn't matter what you do with the technology your promps are you got some weak prompts your promps are whack then the output is going to be whack so Rees a level of taste in order to take advantage of what these mediums are but at the same time it creates a borderless

world because I can communicate with people who may not be able to visually show what it is they have in their mind that frustration of I can't draw I can't so now it it collapses what's happening at Ops what's happening in finance what's happening in strategy we can all share common language now with this technology so that's why I said it's augmenting imagination and another thing that I really emphasize within the walls of that company is that design is responsible for delivering creativity but we don't own it everyone is creative in their jobs cuz I've done multiple jobs I've I've written business plans I had to raise Capital I've done Co like I've lived multiple lives so I talk about the democratization of creativity and I bring people along that journey and this technology helps with that

because we live in a world where kids are autodidactic they're teaching themselves everything but what hasn't happened is breaking that fourth wall that that feedback model that's what you get in sports is live coaching change a jump shot do this do that this technology now can allow people to have that real time feedback of their ideas who don't have access to People Like Us on a daily basis so I think for me when I look at the tech how it's playing out where we're going what we're doing as a society I'm excited man because it opens up new ways to to to meet each other and receive each other's creativity yeah and then how do you think about even on the on the flip side for new companies you know that are interested in partnering with Jordan brand or you new whether it's AI companies blockchain companies

you know that are PR presenting things that haven't been done before like what is what are the things that you're looking for in those conversations or in those pitch decks or in those intros that make you say okay like we should actually figure out a way to work together I look at the person MH I mean the business model and the product changes as you learn new things but I look at the self-belief in a person that's more impressive to me than the object because there's a lot of impressive products but then people kind of haphazardly sell it they don't believe in it so why should I believe in it if you don't believe in it that always impresses me when I see a founder or anyone pitching to us who's like not fake excited with their sales pitch they practice 25 times but like no I'm

convicted by this thing because that conviction means that we can figure something out when it gets difficult you're not going to quit um that matters a lot for Jordan brand because that's Michael's mentality and that's how he I grew up in that I have a dog in me that's what we say in sports you got that dog in you you know like this person's going to fight for what they believe in when feel supported so that's the first filter second filter is does it allow us to communicate and build relationship with the kid my whole focus is on serving a kid when I do my job there's some child on this planet that sees our product comes to an experience sees our advertisements seese our apparel and they feel like they can become like me that matters a lot so if it's serving a community it's empowering people and the

founders convicted then the conversations get really interesting M yeah cuz I mean that that's a multiplier bigger than itself and I think that that's what the brand stands for and even when you think about the empathy level of people having to wait outside for hours for a pair of shoes or you know that one moment where this is the they've saved up you know this much worth of allowance or you know salary in order to actually get that that shoe it it's a it's a lot more behind the scenes than what you think of oh yeah you got to respect the people that decide or choose to spend their money with you you have to respect them yep um well I got I got one more question and then I then we can open it up uh uh to to the audience for a few questions as well too but um

you know we you know even within a16z crypto we have a ton of Port portfolio companies um with you guys you have a ton of shoes right you have so many you know the the classics all the way to you know the collabs you know the Nina Sho collabs to the Travis Scott collabs like personally what's what's your favorite if you had to pick one shoe or if someone's trying to get their first Jordan shoe that when someone walks around and they go into the office and they say oh you who who you been hanging with yeah yeah yeah all right I would say Pro tip uh dress for how you want to feel cuz you could wear any product you can spend any amount of money but if you

don't feel like it's your authentic self it's just going to look forced but I would say if you want a good intro into the brand you can start with the big six the Air Jordan 1 the three the four the five the six you know these shoes that he won a lot of his championships in ones that have the most emotional connectivity and social clout so when people see you they're like oh I know what you're about um but honestly man it's it's kind of like food culture I can't tell people what they what they what they might be interested in eating so it really comes down to your personal taste and personal preference and how you decide to show up with the energy that you carry CU that's the best outfit that you wear is your energy if that's off no matter what you put on you don't

fit into the culture 100% I love that I love that I love that um well look I love love to open it up for anybody that have any questions for for Jason Ethan from C infra a question for you is like you talked about the culture in Jordan brand being some most people all over the world like as you've expanded into other markets like I think about PSG and how you know Jordan's expanded into markets that aren't basketball aren't the culture of like America how do you think about that vision of design and like continuing it throughout the organization if it's like a market that they don't necessarily like belong to yeah yeah that's a great question so what he's speaking to is the expansion of a 40y old brand in New Markets that's essentially the basis of of the question it starts by understanding people's

relationship with aspiration because this is an aspirational brand and if someone's in pursuit of something that they care for we figure out okay you want this thing you want to climb this mountain you have this lofty goal what part of MJ's Persona what part of this Brand's remit is there to serve you on your journey so whether it's the PSG moment whether it's going to Beijing whether it's going to Brazil whether it's going to Canada we're looking for the Nuance ways that people are pursuing greatness and can we be a part of that cuz that's Michael has embodied he's now an adjective and a noun and a verb you know people talk about him as this ethereal category of excellence in any Market the Michael Jordan of tennis the Michael Jordan of blockchain he's now a destination our job is to figure out how

do we expand greatness how do we expand capacity for human potential regardless of Market regardless of gender regardless of socio economics so that's an evergreen Eternal principle supporting people who Dare To Dream beyond the confines of their Community now sometimes it's to experience sometimes it's through access sometimes it's through co-creation sometimes it's just through being present CU When I go into communities and I sit with people who are like wait you're the chief design officer and you're coming to talk to me and Mumbai why this is crazy and I'm like cuz I care I want to see what you're working on I want to see how could be part of your story that's the relationship I'm talking about that matters more cuz when that person gets to that destination 10 15 20 years they're going to tell the moment that

someone believed in them and it's going to relate back to our brand and that keeps our brand alive cuz Michael the whole goal for me is to think in centuries not Seasons we're living in a very weird time in humanity which means it's going to be studied so 200 years from now I have this great privilege of protecting a man's Legacy who will be in the same conversation as mythological Heroes Achilles Hercules Michael Jordan he'll be talked about because of his Feats and what he did and what he stood for my job is to think proactively centuries ahead of what do we do to preserve this m magical experience of pushing Beyond potential that you were place place on yourself or others plac on you um that's the beauty of human Pursuit self-preservation and our world

is self-enhancement you know which is the underpinning concept around greatness so that's how we think about it when we go into new markets it's less on product strategy and Market penetration it's emotional connectivity why should you believe in us it's because we believe in you and once they see that and it's consistent you don't even have to promote your brand they're evangelizing it they're adopting it and that's the new form of brand management is co-creation and allowing people to reflect what they see in your brand in their own unique way thank you for such an inspirational uh talk if you think about the technology industry as such from your Vantage standpoint you and your team are there companies that you look up to saying oh these folks have gotten designed really well do you have

any favorites of course outside of Apple uh anything that you can share on that the assumption is that every designer loves Apple that's the assumtion I appreciate that um but no honestly for me um I think about some of the companies that have been consistently like um vitra like brunn um Le eyes you know like the consistency is what I'm impressed with the discipline to say this is the way we do things this is how we're going to make things this is why we're making things Disney right so I look at the principles and Ethos where people have built a world around their perview and how they've generation to generation passed that down cuz Michael you always hit the generational debate of who's the greatest who's best right the reality of it when you think through

companies that are aspirational they're the root they're the root if you think of it as a tree their roots are deep and there'll be people that come along that mimic it those are the fruits right like you Michael's the root he started a new way of playing basketball and showing up and the fruits of that that tree are the other athletes that people say are like him and that's the same thing with these great companies fory Apple there's a company that borrows from their aesthetic and makes something clean and simple and minimal that started with daa Rams and BR so daa Rams and Bron they're the root Apple coincidentally happens to be the fruit of daa Bron's efforts to bring about Simplicity and elegance so that's what I look at is consistency anybody can do one thing well once but can you do the small things well

consistently over time that's what's impressive to creatives because I can look at a body of work and see a red thread and that's like that's discernment that's strategic filters that's learning how and when to say no but that's also building capacity for people's favorite memories so that they pass that on to their their loved ones so you become an heirloom brand so those are the companies that we look at that we aspire to be like because Michael is that type of a person well he'll have impact across history you know for a very very very long time hey it's Paul cafero with um a16z I'm curious how distribution affects you know your your process you know back in the day it was Foot Locker now the rise of drops and stockx and all of that and if that had

plays any kind of role and how you think about designing and thinking about the future yeah I would say I look at designing and interactions with customers Channel agnostic as a conversation where's the best place to have this conversation sometimes it's in person sometimes it's online sometimes it's at an experience or you know activation we do so I think we're kind of in a season in the Brand's development in the industry's development where it really is about relationship and conversation and that can happen anywhere so the upside to this is it's an exciting time to meet the kid where they're at right in their own community in an unexpected way so it's always a consideration because you

want people to interact with your brand authentically you don't want to dilute it you don't want to put it in places where it doesn't feel right that requires that discipline and restraint that I was speaking to but you also have to be willing to start new conversations in a different way so we hold on to Heritage we hold on to the things that we know work but we're also willing like Michael to push ourselves to develop new muscles to take on new challenges so so that goes for product development that goes for channel strategy that goes for everything we think about we're constantly asking is this good enough for the greatest athlete of all time is this good enough so that he can feel proud when he looks back on his life and say everything I touched was at this bar that I set for myself so that's how we

think about every touch point of interacting across the value chain I'm curious how you define taste and then the follow-up question is how do you as a business leader in the organization uh underwrite it as you're thinking about how you spend uh the energy and uh investment of the team yeah I I would say taste is is interest based on your lived experience you know and I encourage my team to share who they are share with their into to share what's interesting to them in their world and that allows me to learn so I I start with a very curious mindset with my with my team but we live in a world where curiosity is conflated with judgment you ask a person Something in My Level I

know my title Bears a lot of weight so they assume oh is he looking for fault no I'm looking for Brilliance I don't know you know because you've lived it tell me about what you've lived tell me about why that's cool tell me why you want our color so when I take an interest in people and they see it's a genuine interest they're more willing to proactively come to me and say man I have this really cool obscure punk band from Berlin that yo you got to check it out and I'm like bet let's go and I listen to the music and I'm like I get why you love this so you have to be willing to acknowledge that we all carry a level of biases cuz we all seeing the world through our context I just know that my context works for me and I leave

space for other people's context to influence me cuz that's how you build once again relationship in the creative arts everything is about relationship people have to consent in order for your product to be in their closet people have to give consent in order for your music to be in their device so when they Grant you consent what are you going to do with that are you just going to waste it and say cool we got the transaction let's move on to the next or are you going to make sure you constantly have permission to be a part of their narrative cuz the people they're the they're the reason why we exist they're the most valuable part of this whole thing if no one uses it no one wants it it has no real inherent meaning so when it comes to taste I can't tell people

what they taste are it's based on context and when it comes for like you mentioned underwriting that it's just curiosity and interest giving people a chance to teach me and they see me live that ethos they see me put myself in rooms and environments where I'm not the person with the knowledge I'm not the person who has the answer and when I model that behavior it makes it more acceptable for them to model that behavior and it goes all the way from our leadership team down to the intern everybody feels like they can learn from one another and that's where taste expands because now it's it's a mosaic of interest and that beautiful picture reflects the world and now everyone can find a reason to say they could be like Mike and that's the goal I mean that's well said I don't

everybody we just need to be like Mike and we should also be like Jason so give Jason a round of applause and thank you for coming for us man thank you that was great that was amazing