Delta: Breaking Tradeoffs in Blockchain Architectures | Myles O’Neil & Ole Spjeldnæs

Transcript

I think that consensus lessness or whatever we want to call it is a very big deal I think that we're going to see a lot of systems that do this um something we haven't really touched on is that Delta can scale fully horizontally it can scale okay execution that's not so interesting you can add more domains okay but in this case because you have this leaderless parallelizable consensus or consensus list whatever you want to call it right which doesn't have the linearizing bottleneck of the blocks you can run mols in parallel you know validators can add machine they can kind of arbitrarily add bandwidth in a way that you cannot if you have traditional consensus it's

just impossible it makes for more robust I mean more decentralized because you don't have a leader leader dependency so a more decentralized you know Bas ler protocol more lightweight and parallelizable I think it's a huge deal hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Supra the vertically integrated L1 for super daps uh they have a very cool new product coming out called Supra container so head over to supra.com that's supra.com containers so if you're building on an L1 and it feels a little bit crowded or the complexity of L2 and l3s are getting you down just head over to Supra they'll get you sorted thank me later all right everyone this is a message for my dgen listeners out there if you are getting scalped paying expensive fees to per

Dees I highly recommend that you check out index coops new leverage Suite now whenever it comes to leverage do your own research this is not Financial advice don't bet more than you can lose all that good stuff but if you are going to lever up you might as well not pay an arm and a leg for it you can get leverage on BTC and eath with built-in liquidation Perfection uh now available on Base main net and arbitrum so click the link in the bottom of the show notes and head over and check them out today and you'll hear more from them later in the program hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Fuel Labs who's launching fuel ignition a new high performance ethereum L2 powered by the fuel VM now you're going to be hearing all about ignition later in the program but for now what you need to know is

they are launching phase two of their points program so click the link at the bottom of the show notes and head over start experimenting messing around on fuel today thank me later all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is strued or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve this is a special episode uh you guys will see why in about 30 seconds but today I'm joined by my occasional co-host miles um

and oay from Delta guys welcome to the program thank you Mike um yeah very excited to be on I feel like this has been in the works for a little little bit so we'll be good yeah and excited to be on um as both like a guest and maybe a co-host kind of a hybrid here um and yeah I think I've been wanting to like talk about this on the Pod for a long time but um I joined Delta as head a product in June um and yeah just couldn't be more excited to uh to share a little bit more about it today I think it connects a lot to a lot of the episodes that we have been talking about and themes that we've been discussing

for on belker for for years now so yeah this is an exciting episode for me yeah I'm pumped this has been a little uh secret we've been gatekeeping here and as we've been talking about hey if you could build an L1 from scratch what would it look like well we didn't 100% share with the audience is that you are helping Olay do just that at Delta um and as a disclaimer here at the top of the episode I am a uh small but proud uh bag holder in Delta as well so just keep that in mind guys we have a really exciting uh agenda planned for everyone today so to give you all a little bit of a sense of the flow we want to start actually before we get into some of the more technical weeds of Delta we want to just give a little bit of a a history

around oay and Miles what did you see in the industry other blockchains were doing and how did some of the the good stuff and also the not so good stuff informed the design decision and the architecture of of Delta we'll get into some of the technical innovations that Delta has made which is super exciting uh and actually Delta's kind of square in the middle of many of the most interesting technical discussions uh that are going on today and then I've got a couple um mystery questions or rapid fire questions for the two of you what it's like to build a new L1 which we have not prepped for so that'll be fun to go through live but before we get into that flow I actually you know I think a the mark of a a really great founder is a unique Insight uh right like something that you believe very

deeply that the rest of the market hasn't yet realized and I think but you know underneath the entire architecture of Delta there there is this Insight uh from your perspective always so can I can give it to you and like what's the kind of unique lens uh that you see the world through that might not be obvious to others yet yeah so we have thought a lot in designing Delta about essentially you're building a heterogenous system from the ground up which properties need to be Global as in shared by you know all the execution environments and which are better left to these ideally very opinionated more local execution environments so this local Global you know dichotomy is very core to how we

design the system how we think about the world I think related to that and you know maybe also a unique Insight we have very strong opinions about decentralization and centralization in the sense that certain properties you know really permissionless and openness openness and in particular Center of resistance you really can only get via decentralization but on the other hand if you want opinionated execution environments this is the same as not having a neutral execution environment and there we want our system to essentially be optimized for centralized opinionated applications and the like no

yeah I I can I can chime in here too um I think maybe just taking a step back and and looking at you know the crypto ecosystem broadly there are two general approach es to building um these networks and I think one of them is what we see on salana uh sui you know manad and and even rollups like like me eth where you are just basically optimizing one shared base layer right to support as much direct ex execution activity as possible um and I think that you know this is very good for some things right you get a lot of things out of the box you get all the shared infrastructure you get shared assets shared users right so this is a a huge sort of Boon to

distribution early on um as well as you know I think just being able to get something lightweight out there but at a certain point you know in every ecosystem we see a new trade-off emerge right where apps want more control uh they want to own the whole user experience they want to customize the execution environment for their application and at this point you know they face a trade-off between getting this control by owning their own execution environment whether that's an app chain or a rollup right and all of these nice benefits that you get when you share Global state right and this really goes to distribution um and so these new apps right they this is not a

great path for them um they need distribution they need shared infrastructure um and so you know I I join Delta because I think it is the first system I've seen that can really break this tradeoff by rebuilding the base layer from the ground up right to get the best of both worlds where assets and users and all infrastructure INF Integrations basically happen they all live on one shared base layer but you programmability right the way to actually access applications access these these assets on the base layer these happen in highly opinionated you know um dedicated execution environments um so I'll there but that is just generally how I see you

know Delta fitting into the space is saying okay well if you're not going to pack all the activity in one place like some of these systems like salano right here's how we would rebuild you know a base layer that is fully optimized to support this sort of horizontal scaling road map so here I want to try to draw out a couple of takeaways for the audience and think there were two basically that uh o and Miles both of you just covered which is one thinking about things from a Global versus local perspective and we're going to get into how the architecture of Delta actually allows you to lean into uh sort of centralization as a governance structure for applications and for you know old listeners of B curve we actually did a

whole season on governance where we talked about something called like product governance fit where I think we over the years as an industry are guilty sometimes of looking at early Innovations like Bitcoin and then just trying to copy that level of decentralization around bitcoin's governance to everything including multiple layers up the stack for applications but I think there's pretty good evidence at this point that that's not the right governance structure for like a gaming app or something like that it just doesn't need to be that uh decentralized but we still want these nice properties that the base layer which is extremely decentralized affords us I think that is a really cool trade-off that Delta breaks the other one is Miles what you were describing is you know if you were to look out at the universe of uh blockchains today what a monolithic blockchain like salana gets

you is everyone's on the sh same layer and you get distribution right which is like a powerful selling point for why many new apps are launching on salana the the challenging part about that is that you don't have a lot of the customizability that you get from say an app chain but in an app chain you're on your own and you got to figure out distribution and build all this stuff yourself and so that's another trade-off that Delta breaks and again we'll get into how but is that a pretty fair summary of you know what we've covered so far yeah I think so um I think in this sort of you know category of of systems where you know they're trying to enable like more control to the developers by giving them their own execution environments right so these are like ecosystems like the eth rollup

ecosystem broadly right Celestia even even on salana right now with network extensions I think you know what is the Bas layer's job the base layer's job you know table Stakes is to provide really strong censorship resistant properties right to be able to support uh you know to have enough throughput to be able to support all this execution activity happening at a higher layer um those are table Stakes I think where l1's in this category actually will compete and differentiate is around the the network effects right the positive Network effects that they enable for these apps on top um and for these execution environments on top and so I think this comes down to like the properties you

get in this shared settlement and you know from an interop perspective right and so I think what Delta is going to introduce is the for the first time in my opinion like really positive shared network effects across every sort of you know rollup on top right so when a user joins the Delta Network for one app that user is now part of a you know a global state that is shared by all apps versus with rollups where they kind of live in their own Islands right um or if an asset isure like a you know an rwa a stable coin or a bridge deploys ass like integrates with Delta Delta at the Bas layer you know maybe they're coming for just one app that they want to service

but now all apps on Delta have access equal access basically to to that integration this goes for all of the you know like block explorers you know data providers and all of the little things right that that we are hearing right now are just you know too costly basically for a new app to start off as an app chain um and so what I do hope Delta can can really do someday is is break this reality of like app chain like basically apps that need to graduate to an app chain right that it's only at a certain point where they can become an app chain because they have the leverage to do so and the resources to do so we don't think that should be like the only sort of scenario where an app chain makes

sense to summarize some of mil's points I mean this really comes down to what are the properties and features that should be Global and what should be local so we talk about shared State it's crucial to us that within the whole ecosystem you know accounts belong to a shared State uh we don't want Bridges we don't want thirdparty inop the global state is really the gold standard for all of this so that has to unite all of it and that includes assets you know you don't want to have to issue you know a new usdc for each what we call domain the rollups yeah you uh it holds for the users obviously and then you know the domains are also TI together in such a

way that they can interoperate again without relying on third parties they can have you know even Atomic composability because everything takes place within a shared State machine and then on the other hand everything tied to execution is local we only have sort of a a set of shared we call them Global laws if we think of this as a kind of you know Federated State it's like the Constitution um a very minimal set of global laws that all execution environments all domains need to follow and then beyond that they are basically free and flexible to Define highly customized you know highly opinionated

local execution environments yeah all right so now we've described a little bit for the audience um you around why this is attractive right because there is this challenge of you you've seen this many different times in crypto play out where you know a product will start off as a smart contract and then for reasons X Y and Z uni chain is a pretty good example of this right they sort of graduate into an app chain maybe it's once they've got a strong enough brand or audience or users and one of a couple things might happen right one you know for something like uni chain I'm assuming it's just gas cost right uni chain has always been super uh Unis swap has always been very concerned about meev leakage through you know a whole bunch of areas but just like gas in general is very prohibitive so maybe

there's a challenge with the common execution environment on you know one layer like ethereum maybe they just want to own more of the economics uh through things like Meb taxes whatever it is we've seen this and these uh these base layers act as like a Launchpad and again Delta kind of breaks that trade-off um by allowing you to be very opinionated about the execution but still providing benefits um to the essentially like the apps in your ecosystem through their own chain so we've we've kind of described some of the benefits ol like can I call on you can you just give us like a description uh of now the audience is prime FR it of what Delta actually is as a protocol and then we can start to cover some of the very cool technical innovations that you guys have pushed that allow us to make this

possible sure so there are two components again we can think of this in terms of local and Global you know execution layer and base layer if you will the base layer is consists of a decentralized set of validators you know permissionless vanilla in some way they focus on disseminating essentially the transactions that come in from these domains from the execution layer uh disseminate them around are responsible for settlement which takes place directly via snarks the Bas layer is essentially also where as we hinted that all of state is connected meaning all the users all the assets and all sort of

metadata about domains and then moving up one layer we get to the domains which again they're kind of like rollups but the very important difference is they're not independent state machines like rollups in a way in spite of sort of marketing to hint otherwise are just like independent blockchains domains are not that they uh are essentially like again like membership states in the Federation or something like that where um they they tie into the global State as a whole and they take in user transactions they execute them they compute snarks and settle it down to the global base there yeah I think one

analogy maybe just to use like relational terms for the audience um is if you were imagine ethereum had a system where you know your assets never left ethereum L1 they stayed on the base layer right but they could be reflected and used in much more scalable right highly opinionated rollups um and this would also require ethereum to have some sort of new account model right where you would have a sub that you would have your assets in for use in each rollup just to avoid conflicts between them but what this means is that you know again going back to what I was saying earlier the everything you know all Integrations all assets all users live within one

shared state right and so there's no concept of having to bridge up to a rollup to go do something or Bridge back down and then across and then up to another rollup right um so hopefully that helps the audience just kind of visualize what EX exactly we're talking about that is a very good example because that single shared state is the common shelling point of chains like salana today right and there's this perception out there that it's a trade-off if you want that single shared State everyone needs to be on the same layer but that's actually not the case with Delta so that actually introduces us to kind of the first of these you know very interesting technical decisions that or architectural decisions that Delta has made which is the state model so can you maybe o i can

call on you here can you just give a description of what is the state model for folks who might not be as in Weeds as you and then what is it about the way that the state model for Delta Works that enables you to do what miles just described you know with having a basically an account on ethereum be reflected in rollups a state model is first of all accounts everyone is probably familiar with that now the important thing is we have these domains now state is somewhat tied to them but it is global meaning as a user you are you can only spend through a given to domain at a given point in time but you can you know send

or as a domain you can interoperate with every other domain because there these still live within the same Global State machine so there's essentially a you know there's a general asymmetry between spending and receiving you know crediting and debiting there are some pretty cool works on this that actually date back to 2019 um that show that utilizing this essential essential asymmetry um you can build these State models that allow for you know local customizability at the same time as you have the global shared State and all the inup and all the distribution benefits

you get from that maybe I'll just add that you know I think all of these benefits are not like lost on ethereum rollups right like they they are seeing these same problems right and going after that uh going after these problems but ethereum's base layer is you know it's it's very hard to change right you you don't see them making huge changes to do something like this and so what you end up seeing is these clusters of rollups that are emerging that are trying to basically retrofit these benefits with on on top of ethereum um and and for we can kind of see just how complex all these Solutions are that that they need to uh Implement to do so

and I think just bigger picture the I it's it's much more powerful for this to be coming from the base layer rather than having all of these Network effects sort of limited to these clusters right and as a developer you now to get these things you have to choose a cluster and you have to be kind of locked into that cluster right you have to conform by their standards whether that's the law of chains or approving system or some sort of execution environment you know limitation um and so I think when we say like you know Delta is what how we would rebuild ethereum you know or another base layer from the ground up to support this future with everything we know now I think that's what we're really talking about um it's it's you know purpose-built to support this

future so one interesting consequence of this I think that might not be super intuitive is that you know my understanding of this is that you no longer in a system like Delta to you no longer acquire Bridges actually and when you really get down to like what is a rollup on ethereum you know a lot of why it's taken longer than people might have thought to graduate some of these rollups to stage two is there's the settlement bridge and then there's the fault proof system or validity proof system or whatever and Delta is like part of the state model that we're describing here that obsoletes that a little bit I know we're getting into the ZK settlement part of this as well but I mean could you just describe that that'll be you know not super intuitive for folks so you just you know sort of

underline why we no longer need Bridges really in this ecosystem so I mean first of all the domains obviously all share state but the core thing here is they also share state with the Bas layer so with ethereum the bridges are connecting rollups to ethereum L1 I think honestly there's been a lot of like decept marketing around like oh this is just the extension of a singular system but in practice you know you have Smart contracts and you have bridges in Delta this is not the case because everything is part of the same Global State and in practice when we talk about VK settlement you are as a

domain you're proving that you know you've executed some transactions and they satisfy this list of global laws you know the Constitution if you will now how you settle it is you basically send this proof directly to the validator again you you know them they know you all part of the same state and then they you know verify this directly you don't have to go through a smart contract um there's no Bridge everything is integrated single integrated system beautiful very cool man um all right I wanna I want to actually move on here to another uh very interesting uh Innovation that Delta is pushing forward

which is a consensus protocol so on on the base layer Delta doesn't act actually necessarily come to consensus so o how does that work man I thought that was the whole point of blockchains yeah yeah I saw I mean I saw some controversy last week with a lot of people being like uh this is consensus like ordering is not everything that makes consensus academically speaking consensus is uh Atomic broadcast total order broadcast now the point is going back to this asymmetry between spending and receiving um there are again actually some papers from like 2018 2019 which show that you can build some very

simple cryptocurrencies which do not require enforced ordering by a validator set so what you have instead is basically something called reliable broadcast which is much less overhead it requires much less coordination you know I think an intuitive way to view this is if you need ordering you need the sequential relationship between all transactions because you know they have a position in a list relative to all others if you don't need it you can just kind of send transactions around in parallel and you don't have this bottleneck you don't have a leader dependency you know the system is more

robust more lightweight more efficient so how does a you know my I think this is going to challenge a lot of people's understanding of they probably have this very ethereum Centric mental model for there's a bunch of transactions that get published to a public mempool or more common these days private order flow right but that all gets assembled into a a block right where a builder actually orders the transaction that gets uh you know published through a relay and a proposer which basically signs off on that and then disseminated and then a bunch of other nodes uh you know attest to the validity of that block and what's what that's ensuring is um strong settlement rights although we don't come

to finality immediately and we should talk about how finality Works in Delta when transactions are ultimately final but just help bridge the gap like with that I that everyone's kind of wrapped their mind around okay I understand that these transactions are final they're ordered because all of these different nodes have signed off on it so you know my question to you is how does that actually work in Delta what are the assurances that like the settlement assurances and time to finality look like and then I've got a couple questions for you on how censorship resistance Works in this yeah yeah so so tied to ordering again we come back to Global versus local should ordering be a global property or a local property you know Mike if if I send you a transaction does really like the whole world need to participate in ordering this transaction

or can we reduce this to you know I'm in Zurich my like Zurich domain orders it and then disseminates that ordered set down to um down to the Bas layer and this is how we approach it we we think that ordering should be a local property if there are two domains that are you know composing there's some some uh Atomic composability between them well then they should coordinate and they should organize ordering between them but there's no reason for like the entire Global State all the validators to participate in this ordering exercise so the TLD R is having a state model as we does as we do which has like this a

asymmetry between um crediting and debiting allows us to just have the domains order locally and then when the results of those ordered lists are you know submitted to the global Bas layer they do not need further ordering to reach a deterministic output or result yeah and and I mean Mike you started off by describing basically the transaction life cycle on ethereum L1 right and I think the complexity and I guess the uh maybe the tax right that inevitably comes out of um you know apps at the end of the day from the

fact that the base layer validators are in charge of ordering the transactions for those applications right that is a very serious tax that you have to incur for all the benefits of sharing state right and so again that's another trade-off where I think we focused so far on the tradeoffs that we Tred to break for for rollups and app chains so far but you know I think that that's a trade-off that we would break for uh for apps on big shared State platforms right now right um once you kind of remove all these like conflicts in the state model um you don't need total ordering on the base layer and the validators are just like less intrusive maybe to the to the apps and the execution layer if that

makes sense yeah it's this is why I just love that I've always pushed back on there being one blockchain to rule them all because different teams have such different approaches to solving these problems and it's really cool like I think one of the challenges that we're realizing from a scaling perspective on ethereum there's this whole debate going on should make the L1 great again or scale l2s and I think the side that I come down on is you need to actually scale the L1 in order to scale l2s right like a big challenge with interop on l2s is when do you come to finality because very different system again there's a bunch of transactions that happen on an L2 they get batched together they settle back down to ethereum there's 12C block times but I forget there's something like 15 minutes or something like there's an Epoch uh before you actually

get to finality on ethereum and unless those transactions have actually finalized you know you're taking risk right anyone that's enabling opportunity up at the or inter up at the at the L2 layer and so salana solution to this is basically make the L1 go very fast right and so we don't have to wait that long for finality and this is another solution which is we just rely on that like more local ordering and then just submit State diff list back down to the Bas layer how just final question for you here is one when should transactions be considered final um when they're made on a domain like when does finality happen this concept of finality and then how do we ensure that if the domain is doing all of this ordering locally that they aren't misbehaving sure so I'll answer the second question first so the basically

the flow here is the following the domain executes some list of transactions it already has ordered the list then executes it computes a list of state diffs you know after that computes a proof that the list of state diffs um is you know a valid output or corresponds to a valid ordered list of transactions so this is how they cannot cheat um what was the other question settlement yeah okay so a transac is considered settled settled when um the state diff list that contained it has a proof that has been verified on the Bas layer so we haven't yet decided if we're

going to do this synchronously or asynchronously like either you can submit the sdl first then you submit the proof and then it's final I tweeted the other day that because proving is becoming so fast I think we can kind of assume real-time proving and if there's like a latency a couple seconds it's it's cool it's okay and then it settled immediately when it reaches the base layer hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Supra the new blazing fast vertically integrated L1 which helps you scale your D if you are a builder you're probably dealing with some combination of cost complexity and fragmentation of existing Solutions so you're building over an eel 2 land everything's feeling a little bit

fragmented at the moment if you're building in salana everything is fast and on one layer but maybe you're limited in terms of what you can do with your app space so Supra is rolling out a new product called Supra containers you can head over to supra.com Containers um to learn more they offer dedicated customizable app spaces running on Supra 500,000 TPS layer one blockchain that gives you complete control over gas tokens and fees so some cool things you can do you get the freedom to you can use your own token create local fee markets or even go gasless whatever you want so this product isn't live yet but because you're a faithful listener of Vel curve you get notified per so head over to supra.com Containers Thank Me Later hey everyone this episode is brought to you by index

Co-op and their new product The Leverage Suite which I highly recommend that you check out click the link in the bottom of the show notes now disclaimer whenever it comes to leverage do your own research this is not Financial advice all that good stuff don't bet more than you can lose but if you are going to lever up you might as well not pay an arm and a leg and save a ton of money and use inex cops leverage site so the way that they actually achieve these savings is pretty cool they leverage the power of money Legos defi uh in this case Unis Swap and a so the cost of carry for this trade is actually based on the funding rate of a as opposed to per Dees which tend to be much more variable and higher overall additionally per Dees will also charge you usually

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L2 AR ures today and if you like noting out about the tech there's a lot of reasons to get excited about ignition including how they solve State sustainability and perform an execution they have this utxo asset Centric architecture that's very very cool but there's a lot of other reasons to love it super easy to use you can either use a fuette wallet or your existing ethereum or Salon based wallet like Phantom or metamask or whatever it is there are cool apps that you can experiment with and again like I said at the top of the program they're launching phase two of their points program so click the link at the bottom of the show notes head over start having fun on fuel ignition today just tell them that I sent you so that get us into the the sort of final techical uh Innovation I

think that Delta has leaned into which is ZK settlement in general we've been referring to these things sdl's State diff list so can you can you just Define um you know what we're talking about ZK settlement what does that mean and then I realized that we haven't defined State diff list yet so maybe give us a quick definition for that as well yeah okay let me do that first so um you you are executing a list of transactions now that can be like you know me sending Mike some some money mil sending me some money so we have very simplified like pluses and minuses for all the accounts are the output of that list of transactions and we you know instead of publishing the list of transactions to the L1 we just publish this list of state diffs which are like mik had you

know five more coins I have like four less coins and so on um so a stative list it's a again talking about local and Global this is a standardized format that all the domains have to comply with so you know they're submitting stative list and they get applied to State um the other question what is EK settlement so we think of this within the context of a shared State machine so this by the way means that you know rollup settlement is not Z Cas settlement the point is how can you achieve heterogenity within a shared State machine because usually what you do is you know all the nodes in the blockchain reexecute they

have the same you know the same execution model the same VM whatever they have to reexecute all the transactions in Delta's case they do not um they can you can have domains live within the same shared State machine but they still you know have one has evm one has like mov VM one JavaScript or whatever and then they all prove um one sort of fixed part which is what we call the global laws again the Constitution and then they have one more variable part where they can choose whether or not to prove you know the full execution and that will be a more local verifier that they have attached

to their part of State exactly and I think that's a really big point to make um the fact that they're not proving full they're not required to prove full execution path right so that enables you know a domain or our version of a rollup right um to be as something as lightweight as just a simple Cloud function um and submitting you know basically the very minimal uh proofs of the very minimal Global laws that you adhere to for any activity happening on that domain that's on one end of the spectrum on the other end of the spectrum you can have a fully trustless rollup that decides right I want to actually prove the full execution path because that's what I think it my customers want right and

that's what I think I need to facilitate high value defi activity or something like that um the and the fact that they can use any VM right is just another uh sort of like axis of of um of competition and the fact that these can all live together within the sh same shared state right is the that's that's really the first time that um we've been able to do that it's super cool uh the the ZK is is a big unlock I think for that word uh heterogeneity that you used Olay because yeah I think what we're what we're seeing is trying to jam anyone into like the evm we've known there' have been problems with for a long time right uh just in the way that it's constructed it doesn't enable uh parallelization all

that kind of thing and then there's the svm right and the svm it does some of this stuff you've got um account lists and things like that so you can parallelize transactions and it goes a lot faster but there's still issues with that right it feels obvious to me that applications are going to want their own execution environments that's like largely how it's evolved in um you know web to for the most part and so being able to get the like knitting all of these things together you know enabling that heterogeneity um and leaning into uh local actions around things like ordering that type of stuff while maintaining the benefits of a uh common state model is huge um and just to zoom out of some of the technical speak the way that I think about this is It's kind of this question of what services should

the base layer provide to the you know domain or rollup layer right to the applications what services do you want to ultimately provide and I think that the the services that ethereum provides to rollups today basically the settlement assurances right that's what they're trying to that's what they're trying to optimize for but there's more that the Bas layer can actually do like interop is probably the biggest one here but I don't know if there are other benefits that you see Delta providing to its domains and then I want to ask you guys about some of the drawbacks or trade-offs like we're talking about this very positively like what are all these great things that Delta does what are some of the tradeoffs that you've made um uh as well I think that a core trade-off relative to rollups is because

you are part of a shared safe machine you cannot easily social Fork like you're not running your own you know your own thing so you cannot just be like hey no actually I disagree with this I'm gonna you know reinstantiate my State in this way so you definitely lose some of I don't like the word sovereignty but you know what people refer to as sovereignty um in that sense I would say that is an important trade-off and then I do also want to say that um we so domains can have Atomic composability across each other but this is not something we're optimizing for I mean we we think that the vast majority of

atomic composability will be within each domain and although you can do it across domains this is less scalable like you need something that looks a lot like a shed sequencer or like those domains need to uh collaborate or coordinate in some way so I would say that is a trade-off that we're making relative to a salana Oru or a mega eth or whatever have you so that that local like we do expect and like I hope to see some basically local like opting in um to coordinate with other domains that they you know frequently interrupt with and they share a lot of users right um but I think we want to make that opt in um and we want the Bas layer to be not incredibly

opinionated about that because we we do really like the trade-offs that that you get from basically this level of opinionation yeah what about I saw Ola you were going back and forth with mt is loading on Twitter about like this concept of real time censorship resistance so can you talk about the censorship resistance guarantees that you get in Delta versus something like ethereum yeah thank you that is that is another trade-off that we're making again we want the domains the execution environments to be extremely opinionated we're talking to the point of like run your own private server and you know let that be it we're all for centralization on that layer um so we're not going to you know demand of them that they

provide real-time sensorship resistance or sensor resistance at all we don't think that censorship resistance should be a local property it should be something that you get globally within the system as a whole but you know if I'm running a business it should be fine for me to to just be like no I or I'm running an application you know it's no go unless you do kyc or something that is totally fine the point is globally you need to have sensitive resistance and again this is provided by having a uh you know globally shared State layer so that you can talk to validators directly and be like hey you know I'm being censored here can I go over here

and then you just tell them they know who you are you know there's there's very little friction here and then you just move so there you get cens of resistance but this is not real time so that's another um tradeoff against like I don't know Max resnik's vision and stuff like that sure but it is it is pretty elegant that you can take basically lift and shift your account and all the Assets in it right over to another domain um and it's not like the assets that you're taking with you are specific to like the domain you're being censored on right it's not like you have usdc that's like this rollups version right these assets that you're taking with you are Global and just as useful elsewhere um but yeah importantly

they're not bridged you know there's one asset implementation across the entire thing so you're just taking your usdc and as Miles said these are fungible across domains these are the same USD C's um so yeah I mean it's it's pretty simple it's pretty pretty basic yeah and it's it's interest you kind of eliminate the concept of wrapped assets and for for what it's worth I think this is going to happen across all these other chains is just slightly different in that I I feel like the ethereum approach to this even though it hasn't necessarily been spelled out like this is that you know when you bridge your ethereum or any assets from the L1 up to up to a layer two like optimism or

arbitrum you now have a wrapped version of the asset now it goes through the most an extremely secure Bridge right so even though it's wrapped you know the security assumptions with that bridge are are very strong but and so we just kind of call it eth when it's on arbitrum even though we know it's wrapped eth is the idea so or I mean for for assets issued on optimism or arbitrum you cannot derive the same guarant te from the Bas layer so this is another distinction here that because all the assets are actually tied to the Bas layer you get these like L1 direct guarantees really by default yeah I I've wondered that for a while now how this is going to end up working out in the I know this isn't a but I I'm just curious

about this like because you do have now there's a bunch of eth that's been issued natively on arbitrum versus eth that's been bridged over and in the case you know you you listed one of the the drawbacks of Delta's design as being you lose a little bit of that uh you know sovereignty around the the ability to Fork but it it it would be I mean knock would I actually hope this doesn't happen but it would be interesting to see how a rollup would treat you know some Mass hack or something like that and they actually had to Fork right they have you know control over their they've got the fork Choice rule but yeah you would uh anything that's been issued natively you're pretty good on but bridged over is trickier so that's maybe just a thorny problem for all chains in general yeah right right and I and I

think you know the tradeoff around not being able to to socially Fork um I think we're fine with it because I think it's addressing a bigger problem which is the cold Stark problem right uh that that app chains have today um and so if you can never get to a point where you have assets you know that you actually in a community rate that you actually want need or like want to social Fork then doesn't really matter um I think what's more important is solving for adoption distribution and you know awareness right with a with a large initial base of or a shared base of users and assets I think this is a very important point you know um all of this is about tradeoffs so a way that I think about it

is okay forcing domains to be part of global state is a trade-off in the sense that you cannot do social forking but you can think of like what does that enable you to do because you have conceded this trade-off now you can you know have all of these benefits in terms of distribution and inop that you wouldn't have if you you know were were so stubborn about having your own running your own State machine yeah okay guys I wanna um anything else on the technical side here that we didn't cover that you want to have got I'm going to put my Founder Hat on here and just ask you guys some questions about uh building Delta and some more strategic questions but anything we haven't

covered on the technical side well I do want to emphasize just I think that consensus lessness or whatever we want to call it is a very big deal I think that we're going to see a lot of systems that do this um something we haven't really touched on is that Delta can scale fully horizontally it can scale okay execution that's not so interesting you can add more domains okay but in this case because you have this leaderless parallelizable consensus or consensus list whatever you want to call it right which doesn't have the linearizing bottleneck of the blocks you can run mol in parallel you know validators can add machine they can kind of arbitrarily add bandwidth in a way

that you cannot if you have traditional consensus it's just impossible so I think that this is a very big deal um it makes for more robust I mean more decentralized because you don't have a leader leader dependency so a more decentralized you know baser protocol more lightweight and parallelizable I think it's a huge deal um I really think we're going to see many projects that um utilize this oh one thing that I didn't ask you but I'm I'm curious to get your uh your take on is that it there are Delta's extremely unique uh it was one of the reasons I was so interested in it in in the first place but a lot of what you're

describing rhymes with other technical conversations that are happening in the world of crypto even like leaderless consensus right that looks that sounds a little Dag D is to me right that sounds a little kind of like a dag and even the uh it also Rhymes a little bit uh it's sort of related to this you know now new very exciting topic of you know multiple concentric uh proposers all right mCP and then I hate this acronym I'm gonna start I'm changing it it is Ace yeah it's the idea of um applications being able to order their own transaction so where you know how and where do you see some of the innovations that is making fit into some of these other

conversations yeah yeah um I think it's interesting I mean for all of these I think that you start off with a high level concept and a word and it sounds the same and then you you dig in and you know with dag based consensus you actually need ordering at the end of it there's a lot of marketing where you know people will be like ooh seamless interoperability and then it's just like hey we have in shrines and bridges you know um but but yeah I mean M CP is very interesting I think that the the things that they are trying to achieve are basically realtime censorship resistance whereas for Delta we have something like mCP because you have the domains kind of act like compos like what do you call it

yeah composers no whatever proposers proposers proposers proposers there we go I knew there was something off and then uh they but they are like just concurrently producing they're just like streaming transactions it's very different um it's a very different goal and uh application specific sequencing uh I don't know enough about it but it's roughly you know you can run a domain you can one of the many things you can do is to do your own ordering you can do your own sequencing I think application specific sequencing you know promises something similar for applications on like call it uh monolithic execution environments but I'm less familiar with that

H all right uh I want to ask you guys some questions about just what it's like to build a new L1 today so you know I'm very curious the way that I would look at this is just kind of classic there's incumbent versus startup right and what are the what are the pros and cons of of building each and you know when I look at the incumbents which you could kind of put that in the bucket of ethereum or salana or Celestia or even Bitcoin I suppose depending on how you define your competition what they have is uh Network effects and there's Network effects of around the actual asset but then also in terms of developer community and and that sort of thing but on the flip side what you have with with Delta is you have none of the tech debt that or any

of the mistakes right that protocols like salana or ethereum have made in the past and you get this sort of second mover Advantage where you can look at all of these clever innovations that all the different ecosystems have made and compile it together in one very interesting you know potentially better solution from a technological standpoint and you're smaller and nimbler and all that kind of stuff but you're still competing against these incumbents so you just you know walk me through you know how you just view The Bu like building in L1 today in general yeah okay so I don't want to be like the ah we're just growing the pie like we're not actually competing but I do think that we are you you know I'm not going to do that like yes we are for we're

definitely competing against like the rollup vision are we competing against Alana ah I think these can coexist but um but we are also thinking about say use cases and application spaces at a whole which are not the same as what these ecosystems are focused on today and we think we can uniquely enable some things that others cannot so that's more of like you know doing something different versus directly competing now I don't want to S side step the question I think that you've addressed very well like okay okay we have better Tech but also the network literally doesn't exist you have these things that have a bunch of developers and like a cult and all that um I mean it's it's a meaningful

challenge what I think about Delta when it comes to network effects is uh let me see if I can make this not overly technical but you have like it's quadratic right so it's like n squ but there's a factor in front of the n s and this is actually not a constant so it depends on the infr structure so what I mean by this is this factor for ethereum rollup space is a very small number because they're essentially just independent blockchains and the the shared network effects you get just by being a rollup on ethereum are quite minimal they're not great so by being on a domain on Delta you just automatically even if there's little happening which you know

in the beginning there will relatively be little happening there the benefit the shared benefits you get um from being sort of in that Global State thing will be very significant you know comparably yeah I I would just add that you know we have I don't know if we would call it like a third or fourth mover advantages maybe it's definitely not second mover advantages here um and it allows us to build a system that is I think going to be like the most aligned to the interests and demands of our demand side of rollups uh or domains right uh I think we see tension in every other ecosystem that you know has come

before us because they're not they weren't built right from the ground up with this information um so you have a tension between you know L1 activity and L2 activity and value capture on ethereum broadly you have a tension between you know it's say like control salano developers that want more control right these Network extensions and and really the road map of salana L1 um and I think we will see more tension between you know base layers even like Celestia trying to pull settlement back in right against these clusters like settlement clusters that have been built on top at some point um and so we take all of this into you know account in and building Delta to be like the most aligned with

what we know the demand side wants and we want to build make the base layer as minimal as possible but also basically just take away as many pain points as possible for like for the demand side of of domains right and give them these things out of the box that that the L1 we think should provide um and over time I think you know the this idea of like graduating to your own chain should go away right if the costs of of doing so are not really worth all those benefits anymore um so I think I think we can talk about like you know specific use cases as well um but in general that's how I'm viewing you know our our positioning

here so I got a question a follow-up question for you guys and Miles this is something you and I have talked about quite a bit but how do you think about value acru for the token and this is a catch22 this is a Mike bito opinion here but the Catch 22 that I see for a lot of l1s is that you know on the one hand what you don't want to do is be rent extractive right like you don't want to you're ultimately serving the End customer of the appdev and yeah if the more extractive you are in terms of whatever however you monetize or uh you know whatever type of rent you want to impose the less likely they're going to want to be to build on your chain on the other hand I do think that we've seen that the market cap of the Native token

is kind of the market size for app developers that are building there like a huge advantage that ethereum has over salana today is they've got some $300 billion worth of Crypton native Capital versus salana 80 and so if you're building that ecosystem just a lot more it's easier to get liquidity there are more users Etc and so how do you think about balancing that in between I want to I got to extract a little bit here because I want to sell a compelling story and make the number go up and the token go up so that Dev want to build here versus you know not wanting to be too extractive and uh you know you could risk sort of Cosmos ification where yeah you get a bunch of app chains but it's not clear that value Cru the token I think that that it's very very

difficult to balance these concerns I think ultimately you want to be quite singular in your focus for us we just want to build the best tech our product we're not if we throw like a huge party to market the token you'll know it's over you know we're this is not really what we're in the business of we we care about like building a an economic model of incentive mechanisms that makes sense to you know achieve the types of behaviors that we want but no we're not focused on like token go up stuff yeah I think maybe you could also say we're we're optimizing

for Value creation right um that is the that is the core Focus here we want to be the best place to build you know um highly opinionated applications um and we want to provide Network effects that you know make these applications want to stay on the platform right um and I think the way I view the economics of of of Delta is kind of like a Marketplace for finality right that's really all the the Bas layer validators are doing they're updating state they're basically facilitating finality that enables interop between these domains right and I think an access of competition between the domains is how often they they do submit right State updates to the Bas layer um the more often they do the

easier it is for for for users of their domain to right come in and out and move around um and so I think it's in the incentives of these domains right to be using the base layer quite often um and I think we'll see that play out pretty pretty early you know early on um then I think there's a really another interesting Dynamic about Delta that we haven't talked about here where there are strong incentives for these domain operators to also act as validators right um you could have basically the demand side operators also operating of you know a significant portion of the supply side operators um that is the way that they it's like it's kind of new formed of

like a based rollup right where they are both like the proposer they obviously cannot you know they still have to submit proofs right they still have to disseminate information and get two-thirds of other validators to sign off on the uh on the state diff lists right um but what's interesting about that is that it puts less pressure right on on Delta token to incentivize that supply side when the demand side is naturally incentivized to do that for the benefits of their own product right and so we may not need as much you know like inflation and things like that we may end up with something much more sustainable uh very early on but are we thinking about like ways for the Bas

layer and the token to play a role in me like no um we want the we want you know apps to control that um and we think that if you are able to you know basically just optimize this Marketplace for your demand side grow the demand side there's gonna be plenty of ways to capture value later down the road like it's it's it's just shouldn't be a focus early on I do understand that you know there is this sort of I don't know thing in the back of my head in everybody's head where the market needs a narrative for the token that they can jump on um and I think you know we we we kind of resist that a little bit I've got a question for you just you know you brought up token Supply I'd be

curious how you guys think about Supply Dynamics uh in general for tokens because there's kind of there are a couple of principles in around L1 I think kind of came from Bitcoin which people really latch on to right there are a lot of supply side investment arguments that get made in crypto I think but you know people the reason people like bitcoin's monetary policy is one you know there are going to be 21 million coins until the death of the universe no more right I mean technically they could change it but they probably won't uh and then the other thing is it's very predictable right so I would actually argue that the predictability is the more important factor there than even the no more coins than 21 million until he because it introduces all these challenges around

their security budget everyone kind of knows this already but when you guys are thinking about the quote monetary policy of something like Delta what appeals to you because there's the ethereum ecosystem which is there's the burn and so it's a little bit more VAR able but you wind up with well I mean at least you used to wind up with like a net burn and a decrease in Supply like how do you guys think about Supply dynamics of the token at all or is it not something you thought super deeply about or very concerned about yeah it I mean this should all really be about sufficiently incentivizing validators to want to validate so I kind of think of this in terms of just like a regular Market transaction the fees for the sdl's will be based on making the validators just

just about profitable and then you know a small bonus of the non of the leaderless thing is that you can you know submit directly to a validator and they will compete among each other um so essentially they will be like hey I will process your transaction at like this price and the other will say ah okay I'll undercut them so our goal is for there to be essentially just a market that determines what fees should be like so that validators are just about profitable but not too profitable that's really how I view it yeah I don't have a ton to add I would just say like again what what would the should the role of a token be right in a

Marketplace that is trying to align itself with the demand side and I think that means not imposing itself on end users right the the token is needed for domain operators sure but it's not like end users need to be holding this token to on Bo and do things on domains um and then the monetary policy just needs to result in something that is you know sustainable enough that domains know this these operators are going to keep you know processing their transactions updating the network and they don't have to worry about it right that's largely how we're thinking about it or at least I am I agree I I think it's also very cool by the way that there's sort of a market-based mechanism for how much you

should pay validators this is the big question on on ethereum and eventually it will be for salana as well right but it's like how this is the whole SEC um you know minimum viable issuance debate or eth issuance endgame debate that's happening around hey are we overpaying for security and you kind of have to like lick your finger and put it up into the air but if you have a market-based mechanism just allows you to be more precise relatively right um okay I got you know in sort of winding down list of questions for you guys I want to talk about the almost like the the pomarium or the dividing line about services that you think about Delta offering versus what you want built by Third parties and so you know what I mean by that is if if you look at just infrastructure specifically ethereum has much more

third party infrastructure built than a chain like salana and salana has I don't even know if this is I mean it's an integrated chain right so they do you know you have things like uh Native stake delegation and stuff like that which makes it much the the value proposition of liquid staking much less appealing right so consequentially you have Lio over in uh if eum land that has way more Market penetration than even a great service like goo and so I would be curious from your guys perspective when you're looking at those two ecosystems do you have strong thoughts about you know kind of this market-based third-party infrastructure approach versus delta doing more and maybe even launching first party like a Delta domain or something like that yeah so first of all the again we get back to

Global and local I mean the global should be really simple and really basic and I think we should uh abstract away as much complexity as we can um like Delta is an is an integrated Network we think that the integrated approach is the right one um now locally you know you can think of this as kind of like the internet you can do whatever you want you can write your web app from scratch in Rust but if you want you can use WordPress or you can use like Wix or something like like that so we want to make sure that you can very very easily like trivially deploy your own domain and we will probably build some of this

infrastructure inhouse or incubate it uh but that's crucial to us that you can do that at the same time as you know we want to maximize the optionality meaning if you don't want to opt into that you know you want to write your thing from scratch and rust instead of just like dragging and dropping some components you should also be you know able to do that yeah I couldn't agree more I think we're what we're talking about right now is more focused on I think like the the development company um and products that you know that can be built for the benefits of the whole ecoystem right from our side and I and I do think it comes down to developer onboarding and user onboarding um and so that's

something like you know an easy tool to deploy a domain and it's something like maybe even like a first- party like version of ens and a first-party wallet that just makes it really really easy for crypto users and non- crypto users to start using an app as soon as possible yeah it's it's interesting I think just this is where path dependence is just funny and difficult to measure and there's sliding doors moments all over the history of crypto but you know it's funny to watch something like Lio play out in ethereum where it was a very and it's still I mean it's incredibly important protocol very close to the metal and you've watched the sentiment around Lido change a little bit over the

years I'd say this is a very Pro Lio person block works as a delegate there but and basically miles and I did a whole season on this um but you know it it was initially there was kind of this threat of coinbase and the Lio was a more decentralized solution and then it's like wait looking pretty big these days right this is pretty core to how ethereum works and so yeah it's just this is I think one of the advantages that Delta has as well where you've just seen a lot of this play out and it's an interesting trend I think in ethereum and actually salana as well what you're starting to see apds actually build out the infrastructure underneath them to support we had Eugene on the program talking about Atlas the new svml 2 that settles down to eth I thought it was a

cool example of that where they they took a lot of their lessons learned from building Phoenix the uh uh clob on salana and then implementing that into their uh environment so I agree that this is cool but I I you know I hope that long term they won't have to and this is is you know one of our goals is to yeah to make it easy enough to deploy a highly opinionated execution environment that you don't have to go that route like then you know there you only have a finite amount of energy and focus and the more that you spend on developing underlying infrastructure or you know things like interoperability and distribution the less you can really

spend on well your product itself you know getting people to use it and these things that really should be your core Focus right and yeah maybe I just add is like we we do have the ability to look over and see like hey we don't really want this Lio situation to happen on on Delta but that doesn't mean that like you know we should do a first-party LST maybe we should think really deeply about a system where you know an outcome like this just doesn't need to happen right at all um and so I think that's part of the you know large part of why I join and it's uh yeah been a lot of fun final question for you I now to use this sort of simple analogy of uh the

Constitution right of the United States which is this very minimal set of rules that gets federally enforced and informs a lot of our law like that let's just try to translate that to Delta and say okay there's it's a very minimal base layer but it globally enforces these properties how do you envision the decision-making process going for adding something right like when they the roll up Centric road map started for ethereum people were kind of concerned I actually remember going to a eth Enver conference a couple years ago people like hey has anyone thought about the interupt you know prob like issues here uh but anyway obviously issues are going to come up you know we add uh stuff to the US Constitution it just takes an enormous amount to do that so how do you think about the governance or like adding uh

new parts to the Delta Constitution they're so everyone should read de Hawk the founder of Visa he was very much ahead of his time you know the development of Visa initially it was Bank of America and they you know franchised it to other Banks and it kind of sucked because you know Bank of America was in the middle and the banks didn't trust them so you know dhawk was like hey we need a an organization that is purely about Visa and then what you get is this very interesting Dynamic where all the players you know all the banks simultaneously are competing but they also have to collaborate because if they don't collaborate in some way this system doesn't work we think about this in much the

same way um I think it's a huge advantage that this is an integrated system I mean this is it's not just about the technical benefits there there is also a oh I don't want to use the word alignment but you know what I mean like we are meaningfully in the same state machine doing the same thing um I feel like I'm sidestepping a little bit like upgradeability and stuff I mean hopefully we can add enough things prior to launch that we don't have to you know worry too much about this um that would be my response but I'm very scared of dlls no I I know and we don't have to bring Dows into this I think you know Mike Mike you and I have talked a lot

about like it doesn't always feel like at the you know who has a seat at the table at these L1 you know like governance discussions and it doesn't feel like each stakeholder group is evenly represented right um and so part of that is because validators are the ones responsible for running you know for deciding basically if these upgrades happen um and so another part of like why I'm excited about having a system where you know domains are naturally incentive incentivized to run validators too is because that starts to okay now we have like different stakeholder interests that are also running you know validators right it

could be more balanced it could be like okay you want to add these Global laws um you know some validators don't but other validators can like say like hey no this is going to be really good for the network this is why we want to do this um and it's just more equal representation I think you know at that layer what percentage of uh domain operators do you see running their own validators as well I I think this is a very cool feature of Delta and it's something that it's something it's a point that Anatolia over in salana has made that has resonated with me pretty deeply which is you know I think the conception of node operators even in like Bitcoin and in ethereum is that they're they're their own stakeholder right they're their own

separate class of of people and you know in a to's position for a while has been if salana creates you know a valuable enough shared State businesses will be incentivized to run these validators and I've been pretty convinced by that argument I'm not going to I I've let that marinate for a while and it makes a ton of sense to me actually so you can think about operator uh profitability in a different way you know if you accept that as a as an assumption so what do you see like what's the V diagram in between validators and domain operators on Delta you see I know this is difficult to ask before the network is even live but I don't want to Chuck out a number but there is an additional benefit to doing this on Delta which is you can essentially guarantee your own

finality because there aren't again because you don't have block Builders there are no leaders if you you know if you can trust the validator that you're submitting your sdl to and you know if it's you then you probably can then you can guarantee that it it makes its way through the rounds and actually you know get settled so you have totally different settlement guarantees than you get when you have a leader based consensus um so you know based on this I would imagine it's quite attractive to to like really a lot of domains miles what do you think no I I think it is I go back and forth in my head because I know app developers don't like running infrastructure in the first place and so

I do think there will be a lot of uh app you know domains that Outsource this to um you know Professional Services but they're running it for that domain right they're not just like Outsourcing it sending it to random validators it's looks almost like part of you know what I would expect a domain as a service business to include is hey yeah we're going to run you know the devops for your for your domain but we're also going to give you like Even Better Properties right because we'll be um running a validator that is you know paying basically working directly with your domain and they would just say like Hey low cost guaranteed finality do you want this at like an extra fee of five

bucks a month or whatever you know realistically that's what it's going to look like yeah super cool really interesting opportunities for any op uh operators that are out there uh listening and there's whole other podcast that we could do on settlement and finality and I'll direct we'll link it in the show notes but friend of the Pod crane wrote a wrote a great post about this um maybe that'll be bcro round two with the two of you talking about that but for now uh you guys have been super generous with your time and uh yeah I really appreciate it guys very excited about Delta in general if folks want to find out more about the work that you guys are doing what's the best way for people to do that follow us on Twitter delta. Network where we unfortunately have to run write the dot

because some dude uh you know claimed Delta Network in like 2011 and hasn't posted since um that's the best way find us there we have written some things we're going to write more things put out more content so stay tuned my my heart goes out for the domain squatters actually it's funny we did so little uh in the beginning of blockworks we didn't actually do research that blockworks actually exists it's a Minecraft company that builds like fantastic new it take them like six years to build a new world and you know I was kind of looking like I can't even be mad about that blockworks is a really good name for that company that's that actually makes a lot more sense than than our name so yeah wait so did the name basically trigger like the research uh you like ah we need to you

know got I actually told this on stage a little while ago but init the the I was a consultant before this and I initially the idea behind blockworks was to create a you know blockchain consulting company like seven years ago we were like well we don't have any brand so we were going to host events until we could become consultants and actually we called it we were originally blockworks advisers as the name we used to be blockworks group we dropped the group uh but my my old boss is's now a good friend of mine sponsored my first event when block Works was my side hustle nights and weekends job and I panicked I was like he's gonna see the name advisor he's gonna think we're doing a Consulting thing we got to change it and so we became group uh like the night before this event and our legal name for

the first we incorporated as blockworks advisor so if you dealt with us in a commercial capacity you would have seen blockworks advisers on the list well you guys you guys have come full circle now you launch The Advisory product so well done well done yeah yeah um well this isn't about me but yeah little blockworks lore for anyone who's interested in that and uh yeah guys really appreciate you I'm sure this won't be the the last time that you're on the Pod so yeah we'll we'll check back in and uh have to do this again sometime soon awesome thank you Mike that have been great yeah thanks yep see