DeFi’s Latest $290M Hack, Kalshi vs Polymarket & Will the Clarity Act Pass?

Transcript

There's this amazing world where all capital markets can move on chain, right? Where every asset in the world can have a liquid market, transparent price, 247 order book, where a retail investor in Kansas, you know, has the same access to deals, data, and disclosures that, you know, a hedge fund in Greenwich has. And um that won't happen if we don't fix some of this stuff. So, I I actually do believe it's the theme the the theme of this year is do we get more pragmatic or do we not? This episode is brought to you by Fidelity Crypto. You'll hear more about them later in today's episode. Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products.

This podcast is forformational purposes only. And the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. Welcome back to Empire. Happy Friday. Happy Saturday wherever you're listening. We have the whole crew gang is back. Santi, what's up? Rob, what's up? Good to be back. >> You excited that Bitcoin's almost 80,000, right? Feels like a bull market again.

>> I will admit, I didn't even know that. What's the price at? >> Hey, it goes to 80 and now it's like 150 is back on the menu, boys. >> 78. We're ripping. We're ripping. We'd love to see it, man. I check I check prices less than I have ever checked them in my life right now. That's probably a symptom of a bare market. Rob how >> you're building you're building. You got the Block Works, you know, rebrand. You know, you're you're you're building for the future. So, >> we're all long-term investors and checking prices every 15 minutes. >> Rob, what do you think of our rebrand? Tell me your from I know you're a great designer. So, >> I So, there is nothing at Dragonfly from a design perspective, from a branding perspective that they can allow me any opinion on. Like I am the last person

that is allowed to have an opinion on design. Uh Tom does literally all of it for us because he like he loves this stuff and he was a PM in a former life. >> I've got a nice design touch. >> Yeah, but it looks it looks slick. I'm I'm into it. So you guys did a good job. >> That's what we're going for. >> Dark mode. I'm all for the dark road, man. >> Dark mode, baby. All right, here's what I we got a packed agenda here. I want to talk about um Rob, your favorite topic, which is Poly Market. We've got a little Cali poly market drama from this week. Both them are launching pers. There's a little, you know, probably some oppo research that was done by Kali on Poly Market.

Little uh, you know, Shane's not wearing shoes to meetings anymore. It seems like, you know, a little Adam Newman going on. So, we got Cali Poly Market. We got uh, we got Kelp, a layer zero, arbitrum freeze, all that kind of drama. We should definitely talk about that. Um, we should maybe talk about just the these North Korean hacks in general. Um uh we could if you guys want to we could get into USD AI and chip and that uh launch that just happened. Uh and then we should probably update folks on clarity and what's happening there. Um if it was up to me we'd spend the majority of the podcast talking about our rebrand which is beautiful and people should go to our website but we won't. So let's talk about kelp. Yeah, >> let's do it.

>> Good. Okay. I'm going to give a super super layman's version of this. Um, basically, uh, their big the biggest DeFi exploit of 2026 just happened. There was around $290 million of this thing called RS ETH. It was back, um, about a week ago, April 18th. And, um, unlike some of the other hacks that have happened, this was not an isolated incident. So, there were all these second order impacts that happened. So, an attacker, my understanding of this is an attacker via tornado cashachef funed wallet basically exploited, and I'm sorry in advance, I'm probably going to get one or two things wrong here, but from my understanding, they exploited Kelpdow's layer zero powered crosschain RS ETH bridge. And there was a

compromised RPC node which fed false data to a single verifier, this one of DVN setup. Um, and they for there was a this is where I start to lose a little bit of understanding, but there was a forged message which unlocked or minted unbacked RS ETH on Ethereum mainet. And the attacker then deposited uh like a couple hundredk of RS E maybe there's like 100,000 RS ETH as collateral on a gets into it. So now we've got Kelpdow layer zero and A. uh they deposited the collateral on a they borrowed $200 million of real ETH across chains and then laundered that via the

mixers, right? So they got the TLDDRs, they got the RS ETH, which was this kelp DAO staked ETH, they put it onto a borrow Ethereum and then they get that out and they sell the real Ethereum. Um then where arbitrum comes into this is uh I think there was a second attempt at like 95 million maybe um or there I I'm not actually sure which bucket of money this was but the arbit >> no it was linked to the original bucket >> it was the original okay so there was a second attempt of 95 million um same hacker it seems like but that got stopped then okay so we've covered a kelp uh a kelp down layer zero then

there's arbitum so the arbitum Security Council met, they did this emergency freeze of around $70 million, about $30,000 ETH on chain. Um, and the funds moved to they moved the funds to this intermediary wallet and I think uh I'm not actually sure what's happened after that, but yeah, very mixed reactions, right? You had like Tay on one side going against Gabriel Shapiro and you know, people are saying, "Is it really decentralized if you can do this?" And you know, a lot of other people saying, "You're an idiot. Of course, this has to get frozen." Um, you know, it's uh very bad for DeFi. So any anyways, that's my version of what happened here. I'd love to get your guys' Yeah, just your guys' thoughts. It's it's interesting timing coming after we've been talking about on this podcast so much that you are not

getting paid enough for DeFi yields and then you know this happened. So sadly very timely. But yeah, Rob Santi would love to get your guys' takes on the situation. >> Number one, I just want to say you said you were going to do a bad job. You did a good job. Like that was that was good. So I I uh that was >> it's been in my face every tweet for like six days. So it's you know tough to miss it. >> Listen, I it feels like I mean we're a little late talking about this obviously because it's been um it's been a week and so it feels like a lot has been said already and so I don't want to belabor the point. Uh, I think one of the interesting things that is true here is this is probably the first DeFi hack of

size that has like multiple affected parties who are all trying to figure out how to move forward and not not just multiple affected parties but multiple affected parties who are like big brand name like large protocols and businesses. And so the resolution here has become I think a lot more complicated than it would have come it would have been and like most other things like when wormhole got hacked like it was pretty clear like you know how to how to solve that or when drift got hacked it was pretty clear like how to solve that right and and what you've seen here is you know the same thing we talked about two weeks ago or three weeks ago which is again this is a uh this is not a smart contract hack this is a a hack of a probably a person inside layer zero was uh what ended up

being hacked or fished or in some way compromised that then allowed them to uh compromise these uh layer zero run nodes uh inside the inside their security setup right and the you know and following that a lot of decisions of which in retrospect look very uh poorly thought out resulted in what happened, right? So the oneonone DVN setup, right? And there's, you know, the fingerpointing on both the layer zero and the kelp side around like, you know, who decided that and like why it was set up that way. The, you know, uh, on a the collateral setup so that, you know, you could be 93% uh, LTV on RSH

and even, you know, allowing RSC to be collateral, what that means. And so there's a lot of like conversation around, you know, I guess ultimately who bears the the brunt of like the full loss, but we do know what happened, which is that probably somebody at inside, you know, uh, layer zero's security setup got hacked and then, you know, there's all of this resulting decisions made outside of that resulted in what happened here. So now I I think at the end of the day what's interesting is like they all very clearly lawyered up right away. They all are you know sort of paint pointing fingers at each other. I know there's a lot of work happening in behind the scenes too to find a a resolution and but it is um it

is complicated because the incentives here are like very misaligned. The A token has been getting absolutely crushed. the layer zero tokens been ab getting absolutely crushed and and you can probably make the argument that a is sort of an innocent bystander here right where they uh they clearly you know you can you can argue around whether or not they should have allowed RS as collateral and what the right LTV should have been how they should have managed that risk but at the end of the day like they had nothing to do with the hack they were just a a mechanism of how to uh this this attacker tried to exit and now they might be the ones who have the the hairiest situ situation because of the fact that they have had all of these pools have continued to be frozen and people haven't been able to um been able

to uh kind of withdraw their their their loans or their deposits and um they're the ones with all the bad debt now, right? And the bad debt is going to ultimately be born by, you know, some people in and around like either lenders or a itself or people around the ecosystem, but they're the ones ultimately who who end up having to be the drivers of that conversation. So, it's a very complicated situation. It tells you a lot about, you know, kind of the interconnectedness of DeFi more broadly and what the risk is from just a even if you aren't the ones being hacked, but just kind of the risk of these kind of autonomous systems. And so I it I'm not quite sure yet what the resolution will be or or when we'll get

it. Um but people are working on it and it's it's honestly it's a it's a very sad situation. >> So I think markets always speak truth. Um A's TVL is down a third in by 33% in four days. It's down 60% from its peak. So it's sitting at like 14 just shy of 15 billion. At the peak it was 43 billion. Of course a was not as affected here but that just tells you you know to Rob's last point composability is you know a tricky thing and I think the market we should talk about what the implications are for vaults for DeFi at large. The

second point just so that's a obvious lost a third of its TVL in in in in a matter of days and down 60% since it peak in April. Um sorry or last year. Defi as a whole peaked I think at 99 billion. Uh it's now at 85 billion. It's been it's at its lowest level um you know over the last like 12 months. uh and and again roughly 50% below its October 2025 peak. So that's something we should just keep in the back of our minds. To put things into context, uh Tay is obviously a very vocal security expert. Um I know Hib has tweeted about this as well, your counterpart Rob. Uh it is very

adversarial. Like I was trying to piece together how much does Lazarus pull in as a percentage of North Korea's GDP and it's staggering. It's a professional full-time unit. Uh, you know, for over the la I mean this month alone, Lazarus has pulled in roughly 600 million. Um, that is, >> but we'll see what they can get off chain. But yeah, >> see, let's see what they can get off chain. But every year they're pulling anywhere from 600 to a billion in hacks. That's anywhere between 3 to 4% of North Korea's GDP.

That is massive. You are working up against a very like for all intents and purposes, Lazarus is the most important unit of North Korea as a country. That's wild. >> Yeah, I I Sante, I could not agree more. I actually tweeted this out. I said, "Everyone needs an enemy." And crypto, it feels like we've been a little lost for the past year. Like an industry without an an industry without an enemy. And to contextualize that, it's like, you know, for years like the banks were our enemy. were like, you know, down with the banks. Let's debunk the banks.

And now the banks are our customers. And then the SEC and Gary Gensler became our enemy. But now the SEC is our friend and they're supportive of us. And I think this made it abundantly clear, if it wasn't clear already. And I I do think has had some of the best posts on this, and I agree with nearly everything he said, which is the North Korean hackers, aka Lazarus, are now the enemy of the industry here. if we're not able to fight against them and push, you know, protect capital in the system from from Lazarus, this the industry will not grow. And um even though there was this fighting between Tay and uh Gabriel Shapiro and that kind of stuff, like I I actually do find that I my my belief is that we'll move past some of that

fighting and that having an having a common enemy tends to bond people together. And even though we're in we we'll have weeks of turmoil here, but I actually think it will be net net good for the industry to come together if we're able to come together and fight against Lazarus together. One point there, Yano, I totally agree is I mean, we've always known Lazarus's existence and I unfortunately don't think that they're going to slow down by any stretch of the imagination, which it is is at odds with the willingness of founders to experiment and create interesting protocols that fit in with DeFi's interesting properties.

It's a I worry and we should talk about it now or keep in the back of our minds how much does the tension of permissionless how much is that going to be constrained what is the healthy middle ground I don't these are questions that I don't know the answer to but I do think that there was there comes a point where as an industry and interacting with regulators like we just have to be probably are on the side of being more practical. That doesn't mean that you can't interact with permissionless networks. It means time blocks um you know uh limits in terms of like Oracle like

slowing down a bit. I think we when it comes to security, you should always trade I think it's a good trade if we go a bit slower to protect the industry and put in some training wheels because right now I don't see a path to recovering from all-time highs in TVL. And we talk about stable coins a lot thankfully. Like I think stable coins can be frozen and I think um Tether both Tether and Circle have the ability to freeze and they've been >> everyone does and I think that's okay.

Like let's not forget like DeFi and stable coins are fitting in a huge unmet demand in most of the world. It doesn't have access to very basic financial products. We cannot we cannot open up the in many ways I'm glad that we don't have over 100 billion of TVL. It was a huge honeypot. >> Yeah. >> Listen, I I I totally agree with you. I, you know, Gab's obviously done a lot for for uh the industry over time, but I mean, this idea that we're going to have a fully completely permissionless ecosystem and all of these different protocols that are essentially just operate as businesses and that they're not going to be

reactive to crime or to regulators is just, you know, it's sort of this panacea of a lot of people are very ideological. about this space, but it's just not going to it's just not the reality. And it's just not going to be the reality if we want to get regulated, if we want this space to get as big as we think it will be, if we want it to be, you know, the future of finance as people talk about. And so you you certainly have, you know, Ethereum will always exist as a completely permissionless L1, right? And, you know, Bitcoin will exist as as it is today. But there there is a duty to stop crime if you can. And basically every protocol that has been successful outside of Ethereum

and Bitcoin has the ability to do these things and because they operate like businesses and they are going to and they're going to like that is going there's going to be pressure from the regulators from law enforcement and at the end of the day you know there's I care a lot more about you know building the new rails of a new future that is better for retail that is better for customers that is uh allows access globally for new types of assets, right? Then I care about, you know, whether or not it's, you know, fully permissionless that a 12erson security council can stop North Korea from taking our money, right? It's a it's a it's a discussion that in my mind does not matter, but I know I'm going to get like tweeted at

for that because some some people, you know, obviously care a lot. This episode is brought to you by Fidelity Crypto, a platform built in-house with the same discipline. Fidelity applies to everything so you can invest in crypto confidently. Trade crypto backed by industryleading security. Get started at fidelity.com/crypto. Crypto is offered by Fidelity Digital Assets NA is not insured by FDIC or SIPC and includes risk of complete loss. Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC member NYC.

>> No, no, I I agree. And this industry is at an inflection point clearly. So Santi and I recorded this great podcast which comes out on Monday with um talking about quantum and Bitcoin. And we ended up talking a lot about Satoshi's coins and it's um there there's clearly to me a right answer of what to do with the Satoshi coins and it's it goes against I think what the Gabe Shapiro would would want to do which like I yeah I think you should so you know you can listen you know maybe I'll force you to listen to that podcast but like it's the same thing that I think should happen here which is um we need to put protective measures in place and uh I think be a little more pract pragmatic with the industry and look like we're we're

industry is at this tipping point. You take the blue pill, we're going to get I'll tell you we're going to get three things. Stable coins, some institutional adoption and per world, but it's not the world we didn't spend the last decade of our lives building this niche building a nice little like niche technology that applies to a few small corners of the internet, right? There's there's this amazing world where all capital markets can move on chain, right? where every asset in the world can have a liquid market, transparent price, 24/7 order book, where a retail investor in Kansas, you know, has the same access to deals, data, and disclosures that, you know, a hedge fund in Greenwich has. And um that won't happen if we don't fix some of this stuff. So, I I actually do believe it's the theme the the theme of this

year is do we get more pragmatic or do we not? >> I mean, the the most I agree with all those takes. the most important thing when in anything regulatory or building. I mean, crypto is really good at coordination because you have certain guarantees and transparency, but that should not we shouldn't let ideology get in the way of implementing these systems, especially when most of the growth is going to come from things that inherently have way more connectivity with the real world like RWAs and, you know, stable coins. like you're you're effectively tokenizing stuff that exists and you know there's an SPV there's a legal you know that it touches atoms in the meat space and that's just messier

and that's okay because you still gain like a marginal improvement is still marginal improvement to your point you know it's it's more transparent uh but you still require coordination like the benefit of so for instance if if if you have an issue against arbitrum security council you have the option to leave the system, but I could tell you 80 90% of the people that are interacting with arbitrum see that and say, "Yeah, I like that actually because there's a greater than like there's a definitely non-zero chance that something else continues to happen and there's a hack and I feel actually way better interacting with arbitum than another system that's not going to act in in in protecting my funds." Um, and you can look at who the those 12 people

are. If you trust them, great. If you don't, leave. You have many many options. That's the beauty of crypto, right? So can we talk actually let's go back to this kelp situation because there's a really interesting thing that can h they can either socialize the losses or they don't have to socialize the losses right so um the premise is that kelp's rs e were stolen not minted so it's kind of up to kelpdow to decide whether to socialize the losses across all the holders or have a subset essentially you know take the short end of the stick and get a little screwed here. So up >> wait just to be clear what happened with Kelt was that they they minted unbacked RS >> right so now the what so that >> they minted >> and that unbacked RS was was put into a

collateral to borrow ETH yeah >> which means that the value there's now more RS ETH which means the value of RS >> then there's value of ETH underneath it yeah >> I think it's I think the value of RS E is like 18% lower than ETH right so >> correct >> um so >> but but I don't but I don't think that I actually don't think that decision is going to be up to Calpto, right? So, >> you think it's you think it's a legal decision that is >> I well well there's I think people are trying to make it a legal decision. I think the person who's going to end up making that decision is going to be AB. I think that is what's going to happen because not to get too deep into this topic specifically, but they there are incentive differences between a and

layer zero and Kelta, right? Kelpo is, you know, a protocol that had done a good job on BD and has, you know, gotten their um their tokens or tokens put uh in a number of different protocols as collateral and, you know, as a a something that could be used within DeFi. Um but following this I it's not clear to me that there is um a future for Culpa uh following this whereas in >> definitely I agree with that.

>> Yeah. Okay. ju just to say that um in a in a nice way where there's very clearly A who is a the one where the people are the most mad at right now because those are the pools that are locked and that people cannot get their capital out of who has a large business and you know still to this day even with all the draw downs I still think is bigger than Morpho so still the largest money market or lending protocol uh on chain and at the end of the day they have the most to lose And so they also have the most to gain from trying to get to a resolution that makes people happy. And so I I I my my perspective here uh and some of what I'm hearing in the background is more of

the discussion is being driven by by a obviously though you could it could just be a legal point but um nobody's getting I don't think there's any incentive for um kelp to decide to like to make a decision here like the incentives are >> that's a good that's a good call. So if you're a A is in this weird like kind of prisoners dilemma, right, where they they're um >> it's a very Yeah, it's a very interesting >> leastable but they're the one who had the most to lose. >> Yeah.

on a double clicking there. I whatever ends up happening TBD I do think it probably is uh kelp DAO like Kelp DAO and a trying to you know maybe both of them socialize partially some of the losses the supply caps and the risk management parameters at a definitely need to change and I think that that's something that I don't know if they've come out formally with more guidance but that's something that I mean we should definitely change going forward as much as I can.

>> It's interesting timing, right? Because we talked a couple weeks ago about chaos leaving a and the risk stuff there. >> Yeah. I mean, if you're if if you're a bank, traditional bank, you have like a committee, then you have, you know, >> wait rules, >> what would you do? So, okay. So, let's say um All right. >> Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> No, no. Ask the question. I'll answer. Well, ju just to make I want to really double click on one thing Santi just said there which is like we're talking about a he's like oh well we ke a like we're not really talking about layer zero but layer zero is the one that was hacked. So it's a kind of this weird thing that has happened >> and by the way I think I think the most capitalized entity here that could

socialize the loss is layer zero. Yeah, but it's again it's there's those really weird incentives in this thing that has happened here because they are infrastructure. They don't have retail customers. The retail customers the ones uh are obvious customers, ones that are affected. >> If I if I were layer zero, I would give a loan over to Kelp and then get them in good footing and then get get it paid back with fees over time so that Kelp survives. Layer zero maintains institutional like their ability to win over more customers even though they're launching zero, but it's still going to hurt their brand a lot if they don't do anything here. And then a commits to,

you know, increasing caps and and and maybe increasing their security spend or or just somehow that also needs to change as part of this broker deal. I mean, what also needs to change is that I think it's 50% of layer zero's apps, the D or the the app DVNs run a one ofone DVN, right? >> I did I did hear I mean they haven't said this publicly, I don't think, but I I did hear privately that they're uh telling everybody they have to change now. So, >> yeah. Okay, that's good.

>> I wonder. Yeah, I I mean I haven't talked to Brian. And I think Brian Pelgrina, founder of one of the founders of Zero of Layer Zero, has been quiet during this period. Um, so maybe next time we're recording they'll maybe should bring him on. Uh, also would be interesting to >> I'm sure he's being advised to be quiet. Like he's not being quiet by choice. >> Correct. Or maybe they're just trying to fix stuff under the hood before they become more public about it. Uh, we should I mean you tweeted about Guy from Athena. was actually talking to him over the weekend, obviously ping like Stani and a couple other folks just to see if there's anything they needed help on. But a guy I think has been public about this stuff because they I mean they're they're also

working with layer zero, right? And I think it would be interesting to have down the road a couple builders to see what changes from their perspective, right? Um but all this to say >> Guy had one of the best tweets. I think Guy had Guy had a great tweet um which he basically said he you know I I'd encourage all asset issuers to consider to consider rate limits at the min and redempt redemption level as well as custom rate limit configuration on top of layer zero of OFTs in a disaster scenario where the LZ where the layer zero DVN is compromised you can at least contain the damage to 10 million per chain per hour before stepping into shutdown transfers yes it's this is the key part I think Santi which is really what you're getting at which is yes it's

a slightly annoying inconvenience for users 99% of the time, but a worthwhile trade-off to avoid going to zero, which is very similar to when you send a bank wire, right? You, you know, you got to double, you got to double click that you confirm that you're sending to the right person, which is honestly pretty annoying, but one out of a hundred times it saves you. Um, >> yeah, again, the two observations really quick. the column CEO f uh former or I guess co-founder of plaid talked about this really well in invest like the best. He said a lot of times what crypto is trying to solve is not a technology problem. The reason why fintexs or banks haven't really

implemented this going faster is because we know that there are certain clients that just are going to get hacked and we it's important that we're slow, right? and and make it harder for for people. Um the other observation is like let me put this in an analogy that anyone could understand just to sometimes you got to make it a bit absurd to understand why rate limits are needed. Imagine that like all of a sudden you can go to the bank and tell them hey here's like a piece of paper that is like I claim that I have like this real fictitious real estate somewhere that they don't haven't heard of. Um, and then you can borrow against that and and no one is there to kind of like maybe double check that

that piece of paper or that parcel of land that magically appeared out of nowhere is is real. Of course, that would never happen because a bank will like review it, approve it in a similar manner. I think if you're a like that is what guy's talking about rate limits are important because if you see a abnormal spike immediately there should be a review process like a time it's almost um and and and of course there's going to be people that say that breaks a whole features of DeFi might as well go back to the real world which I I actually would disagree with but that's what essentially happened here >> with with and I would just make the point that like The for a lot of the really serious founders in the space,

the ones who have, you know, really understood that this is a trust business and security is part of that. Like this is not you are running a finance protocol or a finance business. A finance business, security is at the core of what you do. Trust is at the core of what you do. And so people like Guy and there are others I think the Agora guys tweeted about this. I know there are others who did about it as well who from day one with nobody telling them they should do this put this in place. They put the rate limits in place. They made sure despite the fact that you know maybe the layer zero um documentation said something else they put in you know three DV a three or three DVN versus a two or three DVN or a

three or five DVN instead. Right? people who were like very thoughtful around the uh ability to make sure that they had extra layers of security that nobody required them to do but that they understood were important and Guy was was one of those and to your point Zanti like there's a whole world of DeFi right now where I think we have like very you have technologists who think they're building software and they don't realize they are building finance and when you're building finance the requirements, the obligations are different. And so I think we're going into a future of where there has to be consolidation around those founders who understand that and understand the just

the pressure and the uh responsibility that they are taking on. In my mind, >> I think yeah, going forward, I would like to see this is something that I spent quite a bit of time when when Len transitioned to Avi V1. I I still remember it was nerve-wracking. There was like a billion dollars that were migrating and I was couldn't sleep that night. I mean, Stiny has balls of steel. I'm sorry, man, but like like managing that like there's a lot of money at risk. I was thinking about that today. How that guy sleeps, I I respect it, but it's like the Swift messaging protocol, which is the equivalent of layer zero here, does not have one verifier. They It's a it's a it's a it's a group that messages and coordinates. Like if

there's a bank in Switzerland that is sending money to JP Morgan in New York, like it goes through multiple approval like checkpoints. That's the same that should have happened here. Like practically someone at a should have called Kelp. Like literally called someone says, "Hey guys, are you doing all right over there?" Because I just saw like 292 million come in here trying to borrow immediately. That what you could have done is slow down the borrow market. you could have probably frozen it saying until we are absolutely certain that these 292 um effectively receipts coming into a are sound collateral we will not open the gates to borrow against the new collateral that came in as simple as that right I'm not saying like you

immediately freeze it but if you see an abnormal spike it most likely is going to be a hack or or Justin Sun moving money around to yield farm but there's like you should still lock it >> it's It's all of this could have been avoided with with that. >> We can inconvenience Justin Sun, I think, to stop hacks. I think I'll I'll be okay with that. >> But that's as simple as that, right? Yeah. >> Can we maybe round out this by talking about So, a is down like the token is down, you know, what is it? 14%, 15%. Uh, Morpho is up 10%. Spark is up 140%.

So, like how how much do you think this is a reshuffleling of the the crypto lenders and and is this a buying opportunity for any of those? Um, yeah, I mean it's certainly again I think that if a doesn't implement more safeguards then it's an opportunity for someone else to come in. Um I uh Rob or Yano, I'd actually be curious to get your takes on like isolated markets.

>> Well, yeah. I mean, that's where I was going to go next. I think the whole world's going isolated. So, I I think the >> uh I mean I mean obviously they'll be part of the crypto ecosystem that will continue to do these, you know, kind of shared markets. Um but also in the world of institutional adoption, the institutions want isolated markets, right? every single one of them wants an isolated market. And so while there's been this period of time where they're, you know, the the nonisolated or or um uh aggregated markets have, you know, grown really really large because of the fact that like they it it made complete sense for

like that period of DeFi. there, you know, all of the growth that or all of the um things that A and Morpho have been have been focused on recently have been winning these fintech deals, have been winning these, you know, uh institutional deals and we've seen things like, you know, the Coinbase, Bitcoin, Morpho market, the through the CFI app grow to a billion dollars very quickly. We're going to continue to see a lot of that and basically every fintech in the world like if you if you you're talking to these people and having these conversations all fintech are looking at doing stuff like this and not a single one of them is going to do anything but a isolated market. And so I I think the reality was is that was already true and this only uh just only accelerates that that uh that future.

And to lend exact clarity to your question, Yano, siloed markets include Morpho Uler um, A V3, V4 is this hub and spoke model. So they I think they understand this and maybe that is the writing on the wall. Uh, because to your point, Rob, I think if you're a traditional like a traditional firm coming on chain, you will not deposit into a pool market with [ __ ] with with with shitcoin. Well, they will see it as a shitcoin. Like everything cryptonative will just be looked at and haircuted a ton to a point where you have to go to isolated markets. And of course, the trade-off there, Rob, I mean, the trade-off has

always been capital efficiency. But if you think about where if we're sitting at, at least for AI, like 14 billion, if you really want to break through the hundred billion mark, you you go to isolated markets. And the then the question or the more interesting exercise is like which isolated markets get the most amount of liquidity and it's like you know RWAS and I mean figure essentially is like an isolated well it's an isolated market right but it's um just helocks which topic for a separate day but obviously has different quality attached to all these different mortgages but still >> let's shift gears anything else on the topic >> cool let's talk

>> uh well maybe question Rob are you guys investing in DeFi these days? >> We're always investing in DeFi. >> But but what's like the biggest what's the latest Athena maybe? But like DeFi infrastructure, >> we've done a bunch of DeFi since Athena. Yeah, I mean Athena was uh summer of 23. So like we've done um a bunch of stuff. I mean some of it public, some of it not, but like you know we we're big into lighter uh which is the one that um people know, but we're in a bunch of stuff too that like you know hasn't launched yet or like you know is still in stealth. Um I mean DeFi continues to be like we believe strongly in the future of DeFi. Now I I think the world is changing and the way DeFi exists is changing but um there I've never lost

faith in the fact that like there will be finance on chain and DeFi will be a large part of that >> because I I haven't as much but >> yeah well you know I uh you know I'm more of a true believer than you maybe >> what a weird What a weird >> I I I believe a lot in DeFi, bud. >> What a weird All right, I'm moving us forward. Um, okay. I'm glad you got that those last comments in. Take a disciplined approach to crypto investing with Fidelity Crypto, a platform built inhouse using over a decade of crypto experience. At Fidelity, you can trade crypto and

stocks together, backed by industry-leading security. When you can see your accounts in one place, it's easier to make smarter decisions. Get started at fidelity.com/crypto. Crypto is offered by Fidelity Digital Assets, NA, is not insured by FDIC or SIPC, and includes risk of complete loss. Securities offered by Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYC, SIPC. Um, okay. Poly Market Couch. Um seemed like uh the Koshi team was doing doing their oppo research and decided to dump it all in one fell swoop this week. Uh kind of taking some shots at at Poly

Market. Um so anyway, the context here, there's a Polyark. Okay, so Polymark and Koshi both announced that they're doing PERPS. Um I forget who beat one per one of them beat the other person to the punch by like a day or something like that. You know, I'm sure Rob will correct me. Rob, would you like to correct me? >> Uh what one of them did beat the other? Yes. to to the announcement. I mean the um the announcement it doesn't matter. I mean they they keep doing this thing where they like announce things and they front run things with each other. So they both do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, there was a Bloomberg article. It said um Poly Market loses prediction market lead after delays blowback. And there was this article and it said gaffs delays in product rollouts and Shane Copelan's unconventional management style are

contributing to the strains on various fronts said people. And then there was another uh article or maybe it was the same article. Um let's see. Yeah, it was the I think it was the same article. It said, "While Copeland's quirks are in many respects standard fair for charismatic tech CEOs, some business associates who declined to be named discussing private meetings expressed frustration with uh Copeland's focus and timing. He's regularly late to private meetings, has attended at least one of them barefoot, his best line, and is easily distracted, texting and taking phone calls in the middle of the conversation, very much like what Santi does on our podcast. Um, so yeah, I'd uh maybe a little context and you know, as someone who at one point owned a news

business is that um anytime there you see stuff like this, it is typically from the main competitor feeding reporters. So, and I'm not saying Koshi is the only one who does this. I'm sure Poly Market also does this with Koshi, but I would just take all of this stuff with a big uh I I also saw another article that said something along the lines of um I think Kelshi suspended the accounts of three politicians from trading on their platform. It's very good. We there's there's clearly a strategy internally to do a big PR push in one in one week. So, um anyways, I just love Yeah, I'd love to get your guys' thoughts.

all kind of petty. >> Why? >> I mean, this is just this is just business though. Like I mean, you remember the Uber Lift like days, right? Like people the same stuff was happening. Um I I will say I do think there's I would separate the perspecting on the news side >> because I I think the PERS is interesting and it's worth talking about um as like a business decision for both of them. Uh, and they're both doing it differently, right? So, Koshi obviously is is trying to launch their pers in the US exchange in a regulated on their like DCO and DCM, which you know, right now PERS in the US are illegal. You, you know, Coinbase has their, you know, sort

of synthetic per which is like a five-year future that they and they throttle risk overnight and like on the weekends and that the that product has basically gotten zero uptake uh at the moment. And so there's been a conversation for a long time, you know, what will the US do from a regulatory perspective on allowing PERPS? Like will there be a situation where um the CFTC comes out and says, hey, listen, we want to bring PERS as they exist internationally in crypto into the US. How do we want to think about appropriate leverage for retail versus uh institutions? Like should that sit under like current futures frameworks?

Um because at the end of the day pers are really good retail products but they're not really institutional products and the institutions mostly do prefer like a dated future or an option and you can see that with the fact that IBIT options just like blow all other um options uh onchain options and and and also like you know CFI options out of the water in terms of volume and are um doing probably almost all of the institutional derivatives uh volume uh in the space now uh at this point and so I I think that's super interesting and I know the um Mike Celig chair Celig from the CFTC has teased that there's going to be a pers guidance coming out uh

sometime soon and but we don't know exactly what that'll look like and I think there's probably some back and forth with some of the current US exchanges on you know what they want to see I'm guessing some of them don't want to see pers happen because they're they think that'll lose the market share especially on retail side. And so I I I think that is um very interesting and obviously there's a very big opportunity there especially at the retail brokerages like Robin Hood and and others. Um and then the the poly market per is uh it's like it's an onchain product so it's much more competitive I think directly with you know the other onchain per products uh that they're looking at at least for for the moment.

Um I'm sure they're they'll be looking at their you know call it you know centralized exchange US business as well eventually and so it's a little bit they both announced it but it's also a little bit of a different you know uh business decision for both of them uh especially in the current like regulatory climate. I I think it's smart for both of them to do it. And like clearly, you know, just anywhere where you have a captive audience and captive traders, trying to offer them more ways to trade is a good thing, not a bad thing. And never I would never um, you know, say that there's adding a new product is bad. But there is a question around like whether or not traders and prediction market traders are the same group of people. I think there's some analysis done by some hyperlquid folks that said maybe it's

like 12 15% of overlap between the two which isn't that much but it's enough to make it worthwhile to to add the product. >> S do you think Kali and Poly Market have any chance of having pers take off on the platform? >> Uh yeah I think so. Um I think they'll I mean they're they're they'll work. There's a good post by Orion Watkins that was talking about just the conversation around like will will these folks eat like hyperlquids lunch. Um I think um there's probably P market um well positioned

here. I'm biased of course. Um, but yeah, I think they'll take off and I I yeah, I I maybe we should reference that Ryan Watkins post or or we should have him on the pod, but I I there was a pretty good back and forth um on that thread. He obviously is more in the camp of like hyperl will win. that doesn't mean that like other folks can't like build their own successful you know per um but yeah I think it's I mean we know users like this type of product right >> yeah let me ask >> the question is >> well go ahead go ahead >> oh go

>> I was going to ask uh he made a comment in there that I haven't really explained myself like um why has and I'm not sure this is actually true but he said like look coin Coinbase PERS haven't been very um like quote uh you can't just list PERPS as if it were any other derivative. You have to reproduce the architecture. Coinbase has already demonstrated this empirically with their lackluster CFTC regulated quote unquote purps products despite plenty of talent and dollars thrown at it. As currently designed, their elongated futures with a 5 years experies 3 to 10x leverage depending on the contract and funding that only settles twice daily. compare that to unregulated offshore venues like Binance and Hyperliquid. Um

it and he's making the comparison like that product has been very underwhelming. I don't know if that is directly translated or applicable to Poly Market or Koshi. Maybe it's a Coinbase skill issue. Uh but um I'm not equipped enough to have a perspective here candidly. >> Well, no, he's he's right. And this is what I mentioned at the beginning of of what I was saying, which is that Coinbase launched this longdated futures product and called it a perp and it hasn't done well. Um, and that is obviously directly relatable to what Kelchi is doing because Koshi is going to also be CFTC regulated and the product that they're launching it's going to be through their USDCO and DCM.

the the difference is going to be or or the the uh I guess the variable is going to be what does the CFTC do with the future of PERPS in the US because we know that Chair Celig and his team are thinking about this wholesomely. We know that they're trying to figure out a way to bring actual purpose onshore in regulated markets. We know that the IBIT options market has been done incredibly well. And so I I do think this idea around like I think there's like a couple things. This idea around like Kelshi and Hyperliquid being directly competitive is probably wrong. they're probably just completely different markets and completely different user

bases because Koshi is going after like trying to distribute pers to you know Robin Hood users right and like my guess and I've always thought this is that Robin Hood Robin Hood does so much volume on the option side they do like 70% of his like zero day options like these are retail traders looking for leverage these are retail traders looking to just you know get long not because they have you know a general you know, well thoughtout fundamental expression of something, but because they just want to, you know, do something that a per allows them to do even cleaner, right? And so I think for that user base, like depending on what the CFTC allows, like I expect that to do well and I don't think that's hyperlquid's user base, right? And then

the poly market and hyperlquid products are probably more directly comparable because they are both DeFi protocols and they are both products that are going to be going after um you know a large international user base and also they're much more direct consumer products. Koshi is not much of a direct consumer product, right? And so in that case I think we'll it'll be interesting to see how this happens. I think the reality will be is that there are a lot of traders who are per traders who will be who are hyperlquid first who will sometimes look at a hip four market and say oh I can get I can cross margin potentially eventually right now there there's a lot of talk

about like hip four markets which are the the hyperlquid you know binary option markets being like oh cross margined with the per side but there's actually nothing in the documentation about that and I think that would be quite hard to So, I don't actually expect that to happen anytime soon, but I'm sure we'll get some hyperlquid traders who will trade those markets, especially probably mostly if not entirely on these like crypto up down markets uh specifically, not the other stuff that people talk about with prediction markets. And then on the poly market side, they have all of these all these traders who want to come and trade all of their prediction markets who will occasionally trade the per side. But I I think this is not zero sum despite the fact that Twitter wants you to think it

is zero sum and everyone's like oh these people will eat each other's lunch. Prediction markets are going to get 10x bigger from here and uh per are going to continue to get way bigger as well. I don't know if 10x but so I think both of them grow and they serve different users. >> What do you guys think of um from the investor seat? What do you think of the I know it's a little petty and Santi I you know I think I think you're right and Rob I do think you are right that this is just business like if you if you guys remember like Uber Lift I don't know if you guys remember Operation SLOG where Uber was having all these brand ambassadors they were giving them burner phones and signing up for Lyft and then they would cancel the lift ride at the

last minute to take Lyft drivers off the market essentially and they were trying to they were giving them lit literal cash to just convince the lift drivers to come over. So I do think this stuff happens a lot but maybe from the investor seat cuz Santi I think you guys se did you guys seed Polymarket or you invested in the the A or something like that and then Rob you guys obviously have a big check so when you when you see things like you know Shane is like these things against Shane like from the investor seed do do you guys care about this at all?

So yeah, I I did the seed when I was a pify. I think paraffy is among if not second or third largest holder of poly market and I I know the team since I left have been you know doubling down and participating. Um Shane is that kind of guy. I don't think he's paying much attention. I I it was um it was I I'm I'm skeptical when a founder pays too much attention to competition and is focusing too much of their time on that publicly or privately. It's like dude just own your product and and you will crush, right?

Um I don't think again I don't think it's zero some. Um, so again it I think it's it's a bad look to to throw dirt. It is a bit of unfair because look I mean Khi you could argue is thrown a lot of dirt to poly markets way probably more than poly market seems I'm biased Rob you're not but >> they have a wholeatus around it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So to me it's always a weak it's lift I don't know Yiano you probably know this more but who who was more focused on the other if you're truly winning like you're in your lane you're unbothered moisturized you're just crushing right like you don't

necessarily it it obviously it obviously like hurts when someone's like trying to go after you in a very like malicious ill way like yeah like you should respond to that for aggression but I don't know man like both of them have built nice businesses like stay in your lane like win on fair grounds. Don't don't do like be a good sportsman is all I'm trying to say. >> Yeah. I think I think what's I've really bothered me and so to clarify my point earlier is like like I think generally like oppo research is like fine, right? Like it's business, right? And like generally like they're you know continuing to highlight like why you think you are better than your competitors is like totally fine. I think where I've really struggled has

been what seems like u not what seems like what is factually a lack of um or or an extreme willingness to lie and it's not just like oh like hey we we talk about like how we're different but there's been an extreme willingness to go and fabricate stories and to lie about the things that are happening between the two different parties uh from the cowi side and there's an ethical standard in my mind that uh continues to be breached that is not okay and so I I've been very vocal about this on Twitter and X and and other things because absolutely go and

tell people like why you are think you are you know better than your competitor like that's great but don't send out your head of comms to go and lie about something that happened uh uh between the two different platforms that, you know, is very clearly, easily, verifiably different. Um, and like there was a this article yesterday about some of the volume between the two parties that was factually untrue and this Baron's reporter didn't even check it. Like he clearly got it from Koshi and didn't even check the work because it was it was obviously factually untrue.

And and we saw this yesterday too in the Bloomberg article and I I I chatted with a few people about it where there was like there was a um like a paragraph in it where it was it said oh you know Poly Market has basically zero volume. It was like dimminimous volume and their US app um you know and haven't been able to you know really grow that at a time when you know smaller competitors have been able to. And if you go look at the data, they've done a billion dollars, over a billion dollars in the last uh 30 days on the US app, far more than any of the any other competitor, right? And so like there's like little things like that where it was clear that somebody like picked up a thing that was basically written for them and like didn't do the

work to then go put it into um the you know, a story. And so so I didn't I didn't care so much about the story itself. I cared about just what seemed like um a lack of like like nobody did their job at Bloomberg. >> I will say there's a reporters are like fiending to get content here and throw dirt like this is every other week like Rob I'm sure you guys get hit up all the time and it is probably more of an like unethical stuff is bad obviously like don't do it like if you're going to criticize someone like have back up your stuff. problem is media doesn't care to check. But Yano, I don't need to tell you this, man. This is why block works

exist. Um, but this goes back to like famous Napoleon line which is uh, you know, never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. I think Khi time and time again just it's it's a bad look, right? Because all these things are easily verifiable and if they're not true, then like it's just a bad look. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I hit >> I will say >> Go ahead. Go. Well, just to give you one more point on this, I got hit by a reporter yesterday afternoon uh on another story that was like, you know, pol negative poly market story and it was like, oh, hey, like I heard from, you know, a couple people that like this is true and I it was so obviously untrue that like I like I knew it was like it was like it

was factually untrue and like the most obvious ways. And I asked the guy, I was like, "Did you am I the first person you're talking to who is like not aligned with with Koshi?" And he was like, "Yeah." Um, and I was like, "And you're told me you're going to publish this tomorrow?" Like I like I didn't understand because it was it was if he had if he asked like three people who were not like And so there's some of this happening right now because it is a story and it is a a rivalry that has so much interest in the public. you're getting people who are just willing to like pick up things that they're people are sending their way and and and um and put them into print. And I will say and I I was talking to some of the poly market uh leadership about this

yesterday. You know, they they didn't staff up and they haven't really staffed up the comm's department. Um in fact, they don't they don't have a head internal head of comms still. They they've they've been trying to hire for one right now. Um, and they haven't >> Poly Market or Khi. >> Poly Market does not have an internal head of comms yet because they um they put an offer out uh for somebody, but they they've been using like outsource and uh you know outsource agencies for this stuff, but this was never I don't this was never what they expected to be spending their time thinking about it. And it's not what Shane thinks about. Like it is not what what he cares about. And on the Koshi side, this was a part of the strategy from the beginning. like they've been

doing stuff like this for for for a while. And so I think um one of the things I said to some to some of the polymer market folks yesterday is like we probably just need to take this more seriously. So because of the fact that like it is I can now tell there's a constant barrage of like OPA research coming uh and and and negative stories coming that are very clearly not you know they're coming from the other side >> just to you know we should have someone like Matt or you know Paradigm guys or you know some someone who's in the couch camp coming on here because I you know I know you guys are biased on this but I will say there there's a there's a corporate rivalries often spill into the public eye through marketing and comms and I think there's a right way do it

and a wrong way to do it, right? Like I don't know if you guys have there's I don't know how into the acquired podcast you are but these these stories oftentimes come up on acquired like I was just listening to the Coca-Cola one and um right one of the most famous rivalries obviously Pepsi Coke and uh there was the Pepsi challenge and like I think it was 1975 Pepsi started airing these commercials showing blind taste tests where consumers pref preferred Pepsi and that actually pressured Coke to launch new new Coke which was one of the most disastrous launches in the history of consumer goods. And um it was only because of the Pepsi challenge that they felt pressured to do this. And so there's a there's a way to do it that can be very savvy and strategic. Um but

you need to do it in a way that is um like leads with integrity I would say. And so I don't know if Kali is doing the wrong things. I I would hope that they I I know some folks over there and they seem like great people, but I'd love to hear from them about their comms and marketing strategy. So maybe Maybe moving. >> Yeah, >> go ahead. >> Over time, just stuff comes out. So, you know, you just can rarely get away with it. >> ZKYNC is the bank stack of Ethereum. ZKSync's Pervidium is the only Ethereum secured platform that is purpose-built for institutions that demand privacy, compliance, and full control of their data. ZKSync enables financial institutions to thrive in the digital

assets economy by launching and monetizing their own chains, tokenize real world assets, build programmable markets, and settle crossborder in real time. Visit zksync.io to learn more about the bank stack of Ethereum and book a demo. >> Yeah. >> Um quick update on uh one of the listeners wanted to know about clarity. I think um Galaxy came out Alex Thorne and said 5050. Um I'm not sure what Poly Market is showing, but it was sub sub 50% chance that it passes last time I looked. Um I would say that we are above a 50% chance of passing. And Rob, I know you're pretty deep. Nope, you're shaking your head. You're we are now below 50%.

I'm I'm going with the over. I'm going with over 50% chance that this passes. >> I mean, I think I've said that on the pod before, but I always thought we were like a third. So 33% chance. Um, and like when I talk to people in DC, uh, lobbyists, like people who are actually there every day who are spending a lot of time on this, who are not what I would call like people who are paid to be hopeful about crypto. Uh, it's the number that I have been getting all the time. time. I think also Rebecca Reic said this when Sandy and I did a podcast with her and maybe that was February, but all of those people have seemed to be very aligned that it's like maybe a 33% chance, right? And I the story that

I hear continues to be like that's where we are today and time is probably the more that this goes on, the longer this goes on, the lower chance it is. And I I think there there was an article that came out maybe in CoinDesk that was like, "Oh, well, there's still time if we get this through July." I'll tell you, when I was in DC last month, every single person said to me that if this is not done before Memorial Day, it is dead. And so, you know, again, this is like a it's an option, right? There's theta decay happening right now. And so, the you know, 43% chance, I think this actually hit um on Poly Market, it hit a 37% chance at one point yesterday. and then kind of popped back up and is now

down to 43% chance. I I I expect this to probably settle somewhere like in the 30s for the next month and we'll see what happens. >> Oh, you expect it to what, Rob? We >> to settle like in the like, you know, call it like high 30s. >> Yeah. >> It peaked at 65% uh a little over a month ago. Um, yeah, I I tell you I I'm getting the same breed from people that it is that every day that goes by is more unlikely that it gets passed.

Listen, I want it to get passed. Like, I'm not I'm not um I'm obviously not paid to be bearish here. Uh but, you know, I try to be a realist and like it I I just I get less confident every day. Uh, and so now it's down to 42% chance probably because you know it came down while we were recording. People probably heard us. It was Will on the other side trading it. Uh, but like I think um like I see an ARB. I see an ARB. >> Yeah. Well, we we we have a history of DGEN producers on the show. Um, so >> Joseph's out here just retired in Alabama or Arkansas or something. Just >> buying multif family properties. No

doubt. >> So, okay. Well, clarity, we will keep you guys posted as we hear more and people should join the Empire Telegram chat. We will uh, you know, drop some stuff if we hear more. Last but not least is um I don't know if you guys followed but this USD USD AI launched and um I knew very little about it only knew really about it because I I remember the framework guys who uh you know Michael and Vance who you know we're good friends with at Blockworks they I think they invested in them after they had pivoted from being like an NFT protocol and um I was like all right let's let's see how this thing does and >> we're in UCI as well >> you guys are in it. Okay, nice. So, yeah, every now and now now and again there's this a new coin that performs

incredibly well after launch. Like oftentimes things are kind of down only after TGE and uh yeah, so USDA launched the you know chip token and um yeah skyrocketed. I think it traded at over a billion dollar valuation. Um, and it's doing I mean it's kind of hit every narrative, right? The AI narrative. Um, you know, they actually have real customers and revenue and a real business and, um, yeah, it seems I mean it's it's pretty cool what they're doing. So, um, and for people who don't know about it, it's there's, so my understanding, Rob, you're an investor, so correct me, but USDA, there's the USDA stable coin and the SUSDAI uh, yield product and that's tied to

something around AI compute and GPU lending. >> Yeah. So, it's um, collateralized loans against like compute. So, or and um, against like the the AS6 or sorry, not AS6, but the um, the the GPUs themselves. >> Got it. Yeah, >> I mean it's it's essentially it is a proxy for compute demand, right? like that is what it is a proxy for and clearly right now that is a very hot topic. uh and it is very topical for people trying to get exposure to that and um it is a it is a problem like we are compute constrained and people are also capex constrained uh especially if you're not you know one of these big foundational labs and so you know all

the credit to these guys they're really good credit people their last protocol Yano you said it was NFT related which it was true but it was credit specifically and like how do we do different types of credit around different types of of NFTts and um they're really smart. They're really good at uh at this part of the market. And they saw early that there was going to be demand around these lending for, you know, GPUs and and hardware and to wrap, you know, kind of a a token around it that gives people access to that and yield to that related to that. Um makes complete sense.

>> And is this David Troy? >> Yeah. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yeah, this is David. I've met a couple times. Quick question. uh who are they lending out to that does not have access to credit in the real world? Because this of course is a very hot investable category for most lenders in the real world. What gap in the market are they filling that is not unmet by traditional allocators? >> I I I actually would uh push back a little bit on that. this is a a uh an easy market for startups. So like there's a there's obviously lending for

against you know compute for relative to like one of the foundational models or a lot of the big companies you're seeing a ton of demand there but um for earlier stage AI linked startups or compute uh linked startups it it's still a thing that a lot of people are trying to get their hands around and these guys have a um a very attractive cost of capital. they actually they've done a very good job underwriting this part of the market and so it's um I don't know if it's public who all of their customers are uh but like it is sort of this like call it like earlier stage type companies who are market >> they process like a 100 change of loans

I think >> and they have >> yeah but they've got a there's a lot more TVL uh today but so they've got capacity uh but They're they're being thoughtful about who they roll it out to and how they underwrite. >> So So they have more capacity than they are extending loans. Is that a quality of the because they have a I think over a billion or so that I saw in pipeline and they've extended 10% of that. Um but they have more deposits in of like idle stable coins that is willing to lend against GPUs, H100s of the Is that >> That's right.

>> Yeah. So they've they've got um so they've got 61 million active loans out. They've got another 59 million of like basically has been signed and they just haven't accepted loans. >> Yeah. >> Um but and they've got a a pipeline of over 300 they're talking about right now. Um and they've got about 350 million of capacity at the moment. >> Capacity. Yeah. Um, >> I know. We got to jump. Content of the week. >> Project Hail Mary. That was uh Did you guys see that movie?

>> You said that. You said that last time. >> Did I say that last time? >> I think so. Or maybe I said I wanted to watch it. >> Oh, you said I wouldn't watch it. >> Oh, no. You told me when we played Battle. That's what it was. >> I told you. Yeah. Like you're taking our offline conversations to our to our our I was like I was like I don't think I do. >> Uh it was a great movie. So, >> Mike said Mike said it was awesome, too. Yeah, he said they nailed it. >> Sante, what do you got? >> What's yours? No, you go first. >> Um, I will give folks a non- finance, non-crypto podcast, which is uh really good episode of Invest Like the Best with this guy, Alex Carnell, um, talking about GLP1s and, uh, yeah, just everything that's going on in health

from the investors lens. It's on Invest. It's the newest episode of Invest Like the Best. Uh he runs a fund called Braidwell um life sciences investment firm but guys been investing in biotech for 25 years. Really really interesting podcast. >> You're on the peptides train. >> Not yet sir. Not yet. But I mean half the people I know. It's crazy. I remember when everyone you know I feel like you have those like group chats of friends with friends who are like really early to things and like five years ago everyone's in you know started doing GLP ones or GLP what you know JLPs and uh I was like ah this is crazy. Now everyone's doing them. And now that same group chat, >> literally 80% of them are doing peptides.

>> Yeah. >> Are you guys >> No, no, not >> no peptides. >> Maybe I should though. I'm like, you know, I haven't been working out as much recently. So, >> dude, after my paddle game, Rob, oh my god, I need I need every peptide I can get. Sante, I had the worst game of paddle I have ever played. >> Yeah. So, I I did I did beat Yano and Paddle two straight sets over the weekend. put that out there. >> All right. >> Got my my content. I'm continuing on this um like uh media cable terrain. Uh obviously read like Born to be Wired by Malone, then Ted Turner, uh then Barry Diller. Now moving on to this book called The Gambler.

>> Yes. >> About story about Kirk Kirkan. very probably one of the wealthiest guys that is no one's ever heard of, but he at one point was like the largest player in Vegas. Like not not like he owned a bunch of real estate and media and studios. Uh like came from nothing essentially. So um yeah, if if you think you're a the book's called The Gambler by William Brempl. If you think MGM >> Yeah. >> MGM That's right. If you think you're a DJ and have a high risk tolerance, go read the book.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Epic. Great recommendation. Great book. All right, folks. Thanks for listening. Got to jump. Enjoy the Friday. Enjoy the Saturday. We will see you next week and listen to the episode on Monday. Very good episode on the podcast. Cheers, folks. Good podcast. Take care.