DeFi by Design EP#82: DXDAO Podcast - Global Decentralization and Social Defense

Transcript

welcome to D5 by Design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate Empower and enrich it's your boy Andy and welcome back to the D5 site YouTube Channel smash the like button on this video that really helps us out and sit back and enjoy the content thank you very much what is going on D5 slate fam we are back in action and uh super stoked to have the fellas from DX Dao on today we have Skye we have Keenan we have Nathan and these guys are building the Forefront of on-chain governance uh really uh pioneering the Dow space and we're going to talk all about what

on-chain governance means in its ideal form we'll talk some about hyper structures and building resilient organizations uh DX Dao is putting on the First Community Driven hackathon uh for hackers by hackers and we'll talk about infinite uh coming during uh Equinox in Bogota Colombia and uh yeah we'll talk about all the exciting things going on in ethereum and DX Dao so I uh I have the pleasure to uh introduce some of these guys um you know we've we've chatted with them before and really they need no introduction so I will uh I'll kick it

over to Keenan and uh let him talk about some of the exciting things coming up at dxda yeah hey uh Keenan here uh oxlum.e uh maybe you've seen me around the Twitter sphere uh currently leading the uh non-technical Slash content efforts at dhst Battle through DX voice uh so I guess where to start um probably good to kind of chat about um our three years of Unchained governance um which we just surpassed uh very recently I think uh July 24th uh rings a bell um but three years of completely on chain governance uh which I think is a mass massive Milestone and the way that we operate

of course going through non-transferable reputation based governance um we'll kind of hand the stage here to Sky and Nathan to give some intros as well yeah thanks again thanks Rob for having us uh yeah I lead the DX Biz Squad at DX Dao which does uh Partnerships Business Development uh growth and all those things around our products and DX Dao and and the awareness of DX Dal and our governance and all the interesting things we're doing GM Nathan here um I'm also a part of the DX Biz team uh under the wing of Sky

um although to be fair to what geek style is I would like to share a reminder to the listeners if they come across our name for the first time we are a truly digitally native remote only Global Collective of Freelancers interacting through our governance system which is a protocol on the blockchain trustlessly and we're truly unique if you haven't heard about us please look us up and and you'll be up for a good surprise and Nathan you know before we hit the record button you mentioned uh true

leaders uh uh kind of lead you know from from behind the community and and the community uh you know says oh we did it you know when when uh there's an accomplishment and the leader is kind of you know there nodding their head in the background as the community is you know fulfilled in their in their mission um and you know that that's truly kind of like the the element of DX Dow is this entire community and even though there's leads of each of these uh modules within the entire Community um they're kind of in the background just kind of uh you know helping the community move forward um you know from from the context of uh supporting like their entire team

specifically in the entire Community more generally um could you talk a bit about the on-chain governance that you know is is it a series of smart contracts could you unpack kind of what the deployments are on chain and how each of the individuals that uh support DX Dao um contribute to this on-chain governance and and uh you know what what are some of the contributions that you guys make on a day-to-day basis and um continue you know from there the uh the mission of the XDA absolutely um I'd love to uh the the way one should look at what a Dao really represents is more of a startup mentality of people

wearing many hats multitasking uh being comfortable with ambiguity because we have a completely flat structure like there is no CEO CFO CTO CEO CMO you name a mo like for example Keenan here is pretty much kind of like the CMO but at the same time the governance system provides every single individual within the Dow with sovereignty and we may give Keenan the the role of a lead whenever we feel like he's doing the right thing but at any point the community feels like he's slacking we can shut it down and this

all happens on chain now the the tragedy of the commons is kind of like a problem an economics that occurs when individuals neglect the well-being of society in pursuit of personal gain now and in Game Theory this tragedy of the commons is seen as a Nash equilibrium where no rational agent cooperates despite it being the strategy that would actually maximize Collective payoff um so the the definition of a protocol is a set of rules and guidelines for communicating data and what I see in our unchain governance system is specifically on a decentralized distributed Ledger like

um a technology like ethereum it serves as this censorship resistant protocol that enables us as a community to gain our autonomy be Sovereign and coordinate trustlessly and we are unique in the space for collectively owning developing and governing public goods that benefit everyone and harm no one and um it's been overlooked even though vitalik has been uh chiming about um Soul bound tokens which people fret about the the term it it scares them oh it is is this Soul uh bound to like my soul and and am I gonna get dogs how

about censorship uh resistance and anonymity there are a lot of mixing of terms and people go on the fringes but at the very base we should truly acknowledge the power of trustlessness that blockchain and smart contracts give us and and the this is a new paradigm in coordination that um we haven't seen up until this point and just to quickly support uh I know this is going back in time a little bit Nathan uh but just support that kind of like uh you know CEO CMO kind of a standpoint that DX style has I kind of

interpret it in a way where the on-chain actions kind of are the CEO the CMO uh everything so I for example since Nathan use me as an example and called me a slacker um live for example need to put the word uh a proposal on chain that says these are kind of my responsibilities and that's effectively the Dow designating the responsibilities that it essentially has the CMO responsibilities directly to me uh so it's like the Dow has to vote and agree upon those responsibilities uh those actions uh to effectively give someone the informal delegation of that kind of like role uh if that makes sense uh just to kind of give some context to that

indeed on on one hand allowing someone to take the lead in a certain effort allows us to scale because we don't all need to be actively involved in that thing and wasting time and and money on the other hand when when you need to intervene if a certain individual is acting in a way that is going against the interest of the collective you have that availability and and this is the beauty of the whole setup and how have you seen these actions play out in practice uh you know is there let's take an example of of an

initiative that DX Dao is is putting forth to the community um uh you know does it start with a snapshot proposal and then the community you know votes on it from there and then uh are these uh on-chain actions uh interpreted by community and and put forth uh kind of into into their lives or let's let's take uh like the infinite hackathon uh that that we mentioned kind of at the top of the podcast um you know how was that idea brought to life yeah and I think just to support that um ideas kind of depend on that

delegation of power uh there are certain initiatives say uh like from a marketing perspective if an article is published or we make an announcement that kind of power has already been delegated through an Unchained proposal so it's like hey look this is where you know on our Ledger exactly where it says we can do this uh without like any follow-up proposals and so you can kind of see that dripping into other you know initiatives as well uh but infinite specifically and maybe uh I can kind of actually Scott if you'd like to kind of contextualize how that works and then maybe I can hop into a bit about what infinite is yeah sure so so we like to say that Dao's well some of us like to say that Dows run on initiative right so the way any idea or

any new yeah any new idea like the hackathon or an idea around a new product or a campaign that the Dow wants to do you the person who has that idea like what they'd have to do through in a dow and within the community is to basically basically gather consensus and so if you have an idea you you probably start to bring that to some of your close um contributors first to run that idea by those people to make it better to get feedback to improve the terms all that kind of stuff once you have a small team that you agree like this is a really cool idea that like we think would add value to the Dao that's when you bring it maybe to the larger core contributor

base and then eventually you know talk about it on some calls throw it out in the chat the draft and then eventually you bring it to the full open public so everything DX Dow does is pretty much open in public and that's where the public forum and our and our public calls happen and so that idea gets after it's been refined and already has support of a of a handful of people it is then presented to the the public and then and that includes all the rep holders who have governance power in DX Dao and also DxD holders who who own the financial token and so as that like by the time you bring an idea through that process and then eventually Bring It On

chain to basically ask for the money and the desire of the Dow to continue and pursue that initiative you already are pretty sure that you have a decent amount of support and I I say that dowels don't operate on like 51 majority they they more operate on something like 80 or 90 majority like if I'm going to bring up a proposal or an idea to the Dow and actually put it on chain I want to be pretty confident that I have the support of a majority like most of the community because that proves that like you yeah you've refined it you've you've figured out an idea that is gonna have the acceptance of of

most of the community and like you can pass the proposal that might be contentious that still passes with 51 of the vote but then 49 of the people might be pissed off and like that think that's a stupid idea and so really we want to know like what are those 49 of people think about the idea and how can we make the idea even better so that like 90 of the people also like the idea and so like it's it's a little bit like passing a bill through Congress it's better than doing it in the political world and and the Dow can do it actually quite quickly compared to like politics but yet it's it still takes more time and effort than the CEO of a tech startup deciding what happens and what the answer is so that's

the that's kind of the process of how DX down and and real Dow's work yeah I I see I see that whole process as a pipeline you know you can go through the whole process of um chat like attending meetings uh putting up proposals chatting with people getting feedback and then once you feel like you have soft consensus you can move to the uh on-chain governance and submit a proposal for an Unchained vote but to to pay homage to through permissionlessness you can cut all this and go straight to the on-chain proposal but the thing is our unique governance

system has this um this type of token registry or you could call it a prediction Market where um new proposals get um staked with like an economic token they can be Upstate or downstate so if you haven't kind of like spread um the um passion you the passion you have for the type of project you wish to initiate no one would be fired up and share your passion and vote in it it will likely get downstate so you need to go through all of this uh process of chatting with the community getting feedback in order

for you to feel confident that when you submit that proposal it will be Upstate bumped up the list and voted on and it will pass in and another great feature of the governance system we got which allows us to scale and which is the reason we call ourselves the first truly scalable Collective is once the proposal gets uptaken boosted it does not require um an absolute majority for it to pass it can pass with just a relative majority so we don't share the same bottleneck that other organizations in the space have asking their token holders to um vote uh on every single proposal so

that they can get a majority vote we don't we don't have that issue and what sky said um the it's all driven on initiative we need entrepreneurial people who don't need to sit and wait for someone to boss them around and tell them what needs doing if someone approaches the community and says hi there may I join you and start working for you what can I do for you like the moment you ask what you can do for the Dao it shows that you're not the perfect fit for the Dao you should do your research see what the Dow is doing know your skills really well know yourself really well and see where the Dow has a gap

that you can fill with your own skills and approach the Dao confidently saying hey guys I can add value to this community by doing this and this and then you will be accepted now does this Venn diagram I speak of often where it all makes sense is what you love doing what you are good at doing and what the community needs and in the center where they intersect is where it makes sense yeah and I like uh see it do it as kind of a mentality for success and doubts at least on a personal level uh you know seeing something that's uh problematic and just doing it is really the the kind

of uh I think the key to personal success um but to kind of cycle back rob you can ask a bit about infinite and I'd love to share a little bit of info um as you mentioned uh kind of reading from the announcement uh infinite's kind of the uh the very first uh hacker first hackathon uh of course an arbitrary term but there are two things that I think are very important and interesting uh about us and why what we're doing is a bit unique and I'm actually going to quote uh directly from our new upcoming landing page uh should be ready in the next week or so Alpha um just a little quote that kind of talks about it um the first part of course uh so infinite arose from an innate desire to provide the industry

with a special type of hackathon a more intimate experience where Builders can come to learn with minimal interruptions hackers are able to unleash their Innovative and creative energy while avoiding distractions inefficiencies and other fuss that's kind of like the first aspect of it we want to be Builder first and we don't want uh like all of these unnecessary distractions uh you know uh having sponsors that are there specifically to kind of propagate their own Vision uh rather kind of building up and pushing uh for the individual creativity of the hackers and supporting them any way we can uh that's kind of like the the primary uh important factor that we think may be missing from some other hackathons uh and that we're kind of trying to propagate um the other infinite uh or sorry the other interesting aspect about infinite

uh those I words are are tricky um is infinites really Dynamic and what we want to do with infinite brand is kind of have it as this um like kind of global uh open or I guess decentralized is really uh the fun word for it um kind of brand so infinite hackathon number zero the inaugural event in Bogota as uh maybe Nathan can tell us a bit about second that's going to be like the introductory event and it kind of onboards a couple of co-organizers I believe right now uh Hopper and Brink are confirmed uh specifically for the Genesis event uh so they're co-organizers of infinite if they wanted to in the future they would be able to take the infinite random launch infinite number one or infinite number two

um and then you know on board uh several more organizers so kind of having this living breathing um you know event that has an ethos and kind of propagating that around the space which we think is really interesting and and me personally this isn't anything enacted but you can kind of imagine more interesting on-chain things uh to kind of you know run through with that like how exactly uh ownership Works maybe there's a non-transferable or soul-bound as we were talking about earlier way of Distributing voting power in a kind of Dow through incident it's like okay should we onboard these people as co-organizers give them a little bit of steak in the Dow um interesting stuff like that I think uh will come forward uh but maybe Nathan and or Sky if you want to kind of hit on uh the first event here in Bogota

yeah um so the the whole point of us organizing infinite hack done is get Developers laser focused and inspired to tap into their like infinite potential we are um going after quality rather than quantity it we feel like we wish to provide a luxurious experience where hackers are in the zone they're wired in no distractions and we wish to Value the worth of the hackathon based on the

solutions that come out in the end rather than the quantity of hackers that apply and join if it's if it's a crowded noisy space with uh hundreds of people but in the end you have uh just a few few projects you could be proud of built during the hackathon it is a failure so we we're not going after advertisement promotions sponsors that's not of Interest aside from the prizes which are of course in crypto nfts 3D printed metals and trophies that the hackathon in its Essence is a is a massive springboard for developers it

gives them those bragging rights for the rest of Defcon attending parties meeting people to find co-founders raise money from funds get hired and we ourselves as a doubt can also potentially incubate uh projects that we find uh we really like so I I see that I wish for people to be interested in attending the hackathon not for the money but for the technology and and for the massive potential it holds for them as a springboard because what we saw um back in 2017 a lot of projects raised a stupendous amount of money based on

just the landing page and then the 2018 bear came and and everybody thought oh it's all dead we should pack up and start uh change our vocation but what we saw at the end of 2018 2019 it came back with a vengeance and I think this is the right moment for us to do this right now build build and build and we need developers and I know we're kind of in a bear right now but we will come back with a vengeance every time we're coming back we're coming back stronger and bigger and the last thing I'll add to that is that we our desire is to attract those Builders out there that that basically

align with the values of um you have DX Dao and hopper for example so these values are things like actual decentralization you know being true on chain proper Dow's uh privacy privacy is like one of the most important things in our space we're seeing this now more than ever censorship resistance building Unstoppable unconquerable products uh and involve and basically making them Community owned and you know public goods focused and things and so these aren't just you know we don't want people to focus on the gimmicky you know

fun little hack we want people that care about these aligned values and want to build within that space and so that's that's our goal in attracting that crowd um and hopefully yeah this will be the birth of this kind of new type of hackathon and Community um this will be the first one and then it can hopefully grow from there yeah and I think the Privacy is it's like we want to attract these people we should do a uh you know in the in the form or uh you know request the name and date of birth and if you if you input those then you get uh disqualified automatically yeah also when I said uh we we wish to provide a luxurious experience I I often

give this example with the ivy league universities in the United States where what is valued is the ratio of teachers to students and in in sharp contrast to community colleges where you have a ton of students but not enough teachers that that is not cool so we focus on us providing developers with the best environment there will be introductions talks and workshops every core organizer will have developers on-site mentoring and guiding the builders and we wish to um make them feel at home and build

something that we can all be proud of and if anyone listening is interested whether you are a developer who wishes to attend and hack or you are an organizations that organization that would like to partner with us not as a sponsor but as a co-organizer you can visit infinite hyphen hackathons dot eth dot limo and um or get in touch with us come to our Discord and Rob will be forcing you at gunpoint to stick that in the description I'm sure he's out of my mouth we'll we'll absolutely have that link in uh in the intro uh to this post as well as in the

description and yeah I yeah there there's tons of awesome uh you know results and and I I really like the infinite potential that you know all these developers share and imagine you know combining one's infinite potential with another's it's uh it's a scalable Vision that uh DX Dao is is right you know at the Crux to uh to to push forward and it's in a position to build like Skye was saying Unstoppable unconquerable uh censorship resistant and and resilient organizations and projects that are are

extremely valuable to the community um on a range of topics like privacy and decentralization um and DX Dow is that leader in the background supporting all of these projects with uh you know kind of con uh organizing and putting forth this this infinite hackathon uh and you know that we we could speculate on some of the projects that that could come out of infinite wisdom and and excuse me infinite potential out of this uh out of this hackathon uh I wanna I wanna switch gears a bit into the the resilience resiliency of you know crypto uh and blockchain

communities to always come back with a vengeance um and kind of speak to you know the current environment we're in as it relates to like the tornado cash situation um and how that is having an impact on uh one is having an impact on the markets but we'll put that aside for now and and how it's impacting communities like DX Dao in their Unstoppable momentum to put value into these into this community um what what do you you know what are you you guys overall think like about the situation and then is there specific impacts on DX Dao and this digital

Collective that that you see starting to take shape yeah so uh of course I can't necessarily speak on behalf of the Dow we have not had a signal proposal or anything for a formal uh standpoint from the Excel uh but I'll say very broadly there appears to be a consensus that this is not a good precedent uh of course uh we believe code is speech we had a little bit of a kind of post on that um but uh of course referring to um the tornado cash developer that was arrested uh it's still unclear exactly the reason uh they're being very vague about it but if it was strictly through writing code that was used in a malicious way um then there's definitely a problem and it's a not a great precedent of course

uh you know the security and importance of what we're doing is really affected by that uh and I'll say kind of down stream those of us kind of working and this isn't just the extasis everyone that I've spoken to personally is kind of very wary about the situation not feeling great about it you know it like it's uh the slippery slope mentality almost uh where it's like okay well it's a mixer now and then what is it in the future is it all of D5 uh you know what exactly is going to list who's following who um and how is that going to work and then we're seeing rpcs basically blocking requests we're seeing miners uh rejecting contract calls directly and they're not mining those transactions um so it's it's a little bit crazy uh it's a little bit of a a rough patch but

I think the important thing is that no one should be vilified for writing open source code um especially the utilization of the code shouldn't hold the writer accountable of course personal opinion um but it's like it's kind of like it's a fallacy really it's like the person who manufactured the car they're responsible for the accident right and that's kind of although a very very strawman argument it's a very good kind of way to visualize why it's a problem you know I wasn't the one driving the car um you know causing the accident I was the one that made the car and that that person is uh you know the one in trouble here um so it's it's definitely interesting uh we'll kind of let sky and Nathan weigh their thoughts

yeah yeah that's yeah very specific to that situation but in general you know in the ethereum space a lot of people in the web three space we've been we've been working towards this mission of building products that are neutral that are like this like ethereum being this unsensorable like truth layer to to data for the world and eventually when you know many of the finances and things on the world are going to be on this on this layer in this settlement layer like this thing can't be manipulatable right it can't be no specific people can't censor this and so we've been there's a lot of people

that are building products on on ethereum on this layer and there's been a spectrum of of centralized small teams doing it and then you know decentralized Dows building products and and then along that process of building products there is all of these pieces that go into it there's the front end there's the back end there's the code there's where the code is stored there's how you access the products right and so there's all of these pieces to what these products are and up until recently we kind of just a lot of people were taking um short mini shortcuts right and we're starting to see that that any things any

points in those in those products that are centralized can be either attacked or censored or shut down and so you can't have Unstoppable products if there if the whole thing is full of these centralized points of failure and so I I say that like decentralization is the defense mechanism to those weak points that can be shut down and attacked right and that's from managing the product like many many communities out there might use a a three or five multi-sig and even if you trust that five-person multi-stig if a malicious person

attacks the keys and gets the keys of three of those five people they can attack the system right and so how do you defend that you basically need to get rid of the centralization of it and the way you do that is you get you move towards decentralization so we already know that decentralization is this really powerful characteristic of of really yeah of really strong systems but I think that we're starting to realize that we've many people have compromised on the decentralization part and it started to show now and so there like VX style has been at least a decent example of one of the entities out there that has tried to

stay on the further extreme end of decentralization in the way that it builds its products the way that it launches its products the way that it owns its products the way that it updates its products and so the back ends the the actual front ends through ens and ipfs are actually owned by the actual Dao and the only way to make changes to the products are via on-chain proposal by the actual Dow on mainnet ethereum and so it creates this this strengthening this decentralization that's embedded in the everything that we do is what creates this strength right and so we need to see more of that in the space and people start to adapt

um some of the learnings that the actual kind of proper decentralized doubts out there are taking and I think that will I think this overall thing this situation will strengthen the entire space but it's definitely hurting many people in the in the short term and we're starting to see that there's a lot of weak points in our systems and we need to address those and and eliminate them and then strengthen the overall system and dxdow has started decentralized and continued to be decentralized and grown more distributed as the community has has grown in size

is is there a you know how do you guys feel what's your opinion on um starting decentralized and continuing in that in that Journey versus starting centralized and using that that initial Community to bootstraps and growth and then removing some of those centralization vectors or those attack vectors you know removing the the elements of centralization in order to to prevent attack vectors um over the course of time to to progressively move towards decentralization

um you know you guys are starting decentralized so you know could be um not biased but you know inclined towards uh starting decentralized and and continuing with it um and there's there's a point that I'm getting at which I'll I'll just kind of you know reach which we're we're moving towards an El uh an ecosystem of proof of stake on ethereum and this is taking these elements of decentralization from uh you know all of the different vectors whether like Scott mentioned front end back end Miners and and the like into this concept of proof

of stake and now we have stakers who are almost like siled off individual attack vectors let's you know let's kind of call them all out right away like sensor censoring right the chain and this is bringing up kind of this concept of social recognition or social slashing where one Staker who is censoring the network can get slashed by the rest of the network and it seems like this is an aspect of decentralization that can

defend against attack vectors and we're seeing it kind of play out in practice on the ethereum uh staking consensus side of things and then we're also seeing it in terms of you know Dows and governance and removing attack vectors that are either contained on the front end or the back end and decentralizing those into you know Dow owned ipf links and front ends Dow owned server spaces and I'm curious if you see a relationship between the two and maybe some general thoughts on social slashing if you guys have thoughts on uh you know how do you

prevent uh an attacker from maliciously uh attacking the network on let's say it's an ipfs link um and then we'll get kind of into the social flashing uh elements of ethereum and how how you you know might might see that playing out well it it is a whole ecosystem a whole industry in transition because like not not the entire like blockchain industry ethereum in itself has so many applications running on it it is a whole industry in and of itself D5 pretty much

started with um ethereum and and is almost confined to ethereum so this whole industry is in transition now with the pending merge and up until this point we've had proof of work after the merge we will be moving on to proof of stake when we had the beacon chain there was a restriction that you like our requirements that kind of people at first scoffed and said oh that's that feels rather centralized you need to have like 32 ether to stake um and validate that that doesn't sound

right right but then we had these protocols that allowed people to stake even smaller amounts and it seems like moving forward that will be further enabled and I'm optimistic of course now that we have the whole Fiasco with uh tornado cash happen and people getting worried that the larger players who are particularly situated in the U.S and have llc's there could be advised by their uh legal councils that they should act in a particular way that people don't like because if those entities hold say 60 70 percent of the stake

um of the new chain then that is something we should really be worried about but um with the potential of individuals running nodes to take matters in their own hands um I feel like we will have it covered and I'm actually very pleased and grateful that this happened right now uh sooner rather than later um people started um kind of like waking up to the fact that all this time with being too comfortable and not really paying attention to um the foundation that we need to lay that will secure our future because

uh it seems like it is still a bit shaky and this is a wake-up call for us to take matter in our hands and make sure we make it stable so that it can support us because we are definitely growing it larger in the future yeah and and the ideas of proof of stake almost seems similar to uh like a like a gigantic multi-cig where you know we have all the people who have contributed you know 32 eth into the beacon chain and they're making up you know one piece of that of that multi-signature uh

wallet and now you know if if there's a malicious uh signer on that on that say wallet uh the rest of the signers on that wallet can kind of reject you know that messaging from that Staker and and can kind of act accordingly by by reducing the stake um and you know this is an element of of decentralization it's kind of the uh the wisdom of the crowd in a sense where the the consensus of the entire Community is uh making the decisions rather than one particular entity or

individual yet I I remember watching one of the ethereum core Dev calls I think on August 18th and there was a split almost in the community where uh some of the social slashing mechanisms started to sound like we were censoring the sensors and then you know obviously that just creates new sensors new censorship so I'm I'm curious if you guys maybe you know you've seen something similar if there's like uh potentially malicious proposal on DX Dao or if you guys have thoughts generally on like you know how best to navigate the

the decentralized um defense against malicious attackers quickly start this Sky sorry Skye um I think from the Excel standpoint particularly uh we have a couple mechanisms in place that kind of prevent that uh first and most importantly to me is holographic consensus which I believe Nathan was referring to earlier uh but basically the idea that a proposal submitted requiring majority to pass but uh relative majority and um if you kind of state capital so you need at least fifty percent of the doubt to agree with you unless you put forward capital uh and the reason that's important is because you're taking the

risk putting forward that capital in order to you know move the proposal along um and then there's also like the quiet ending period which we have basically if there's any um flip of the uh you know four or against um kind of final resolution um then it Cycles back gives you another 24 hours so it gives a lot of ample time to kind of um you know participate in that governance process um the other important thing and I'm not sure I think we're working to this in our uh in our new model curriculum wrong Nathan maybe um but I believe we have an arbitrary limit uh to the treasury where it's kind of segmented um and you can't drain it with a single proposal so if there was a attack uh that managed to be successful it

wouldn't have the damage that um it could potentially have um I think uh you can correct me from around sky or Nathan I think that's coming new model Davi but those are kind of two like safety mechanisms that we think are important from The Proposal side of things um I'm not sure if you guys have anything to add yeah I mean so specific to uh moving to proof of stake it's a very complex topic my opinion is that if I I think that this base layer which is ethereum has to remain neutral right if it

doesn't remain neutral then the whole thing basically doesn't doesn't mean anything anymore right and so the idea was to have a base layer that is that is fully neutral and so if if validators of that neutral chain are censoring transactions what can go into blocks and what blocks what what blocks can be built on from you know previous transactions in previous blocks and things if that starts to be censored I think the the whole thing becomes not what uh

not what we need and so there are yeah there are some public Twitter discussions and things in some large uh you know validator groups like you know some exchanges and things I think are already putting out opinions about this that if if they were being forced to censor that they would stop validating blocks and things like that so I think I think we need to move towards the the new we need to maintain the neutral platform that it is and then you know you can have daps and things on top of that and different people can use different apps but to be that we need to at the end of the day we

need to build systems that allow for this these Unstoppable products to be built and that has to be on a neutral base layer I think um but that's yeah I think that's critical to to what we're what we're all doing here um yeah I I don't know whether the new regulation with its ambiguity uh is intentionally uh mudding the water trying to have the system uh fall into itself or cannibalize itself um you know form factions and start fighting and like uh they don't even

have to fight us like we'll kill each other so and and like with the model of uh ultrasound money of course this this also kind of like thing at the back of people's heads in in the future um would would it be in a proof of stake a consensus model would it be more centralized could it be further getting further distributed how would that actually happen economically because we've seen capital is mercenary you know it's um opportunistic and if there really is a fork that follows uh censorship uh then quite a bit of money drain could

like could flow out and go to that system and then what are we really left with like because in a proof of stake the security comes from stakers but if like there's no economic backing uh in that stake then it's a shaky structure but when it comes to the our Dao's governance it's a completely different picture we don't have liquid token uh governance it's uh non-transferable reputation token that cannot be delegated it cannot be transferred you can to buy it or sell it and in fact it's the opposite of the ultrasound money model it actually gets

diluted so that when new contributors join the Dow they loot the shares of all the contributors so that there are no whales you know it's the distribution of voting power is really amazing it's a scalable structure that is welcoming to newcomers the more you work you put in your proof of work contribute to the Dow you will be awarded with reputation and you have an equal say in the governance of the protocols that are being built we we have something truly amazing in our hands and the more people look into it uh I'm sure they're gonna love it awesome yeah the uh the concept of two

tokens right one that is reputation that's non-transferable which is just that it's a reputation and it and it is the uh the the say that you know one has in in the governance process of DX Dao and and the financial stick that someone can also append to a proposal and and almost bolster it with a financial stake which you know plays a balance with the reputation that's required to ultimately instantiate that proposal um I'm curious maybe some ethereum could Implement a similar model you know this

is this is purely speculation at this point but it seems like you know we're kind of really leaning into that Financial stake model and there isn't a whole lot of the non-transferable uh reputation that goes along with that I even I even heard on this call that there was some discussion of uh electing like a council and you know that could serve as like kind of like the recipients of this non-transferable governance token that you know might elect to uh Target slashing on on one relay or or sticker or something Keen indeed you know but what do you think yeah so I think well first of all I

think uh what we're doing with governance 2.0 is very important um and just as a quick context I think we mentioned earlier but uh governance 2.0 is our non-transferable reputation uh kind of backed up by the financial asset of dxt giving a say to DxD holders uh our financial token uh as well as kind of combining that with reputation so the easy way to kind of visualize that is if you're a contributor you have to back up your say with the associated Financial token to show that you have skin in the game to exercise that reputation and likewise if you you know purchase a boatload of dxt you need to show that you have some commitment to the data exercise that putting power um you know via through commitment to the community uh on-shaped proposal of some kind um kind of backing that up I think

that's very very important uh and one thing and maybe this is a bit of a hot take I think that governance 2.0 should be everywhere uh of course we haven't had a full experiment with it um so maybe uh you know in practice there's some challenges that we're not visualizing it I think that everyone should have it um ethereum in that specific case I feel as if it should be weighted much more heavily towards reputation as opposed to financial of course there's a different Dynamic when you consider validators but I think that that reputation uh is kind of what matters most and in this kind of censorship resistant uh you know personally I don't want ethereum to turn into this like money chasing um protocol right um and it's not that

uh Financial token holders and ethereum or etholders uh shouldn't have a say necessarily uh that's not what I'm saying at all but I feel as if um kind of skimming that towards direct like contributors people that have been that maintaining the protocols uh people have been effectively validating uh as opposed to someone that could you know come in with their billion dollar um you know credit card swipe it and have a large Sandy ethereum Network I think that Dynamic shouldn't exist um so I would say ethereum specifically I would prefer much more closer to a reputation weighted model um that's I guess a bit of an opinion I don't know if anyone shares that here yeah the Catalyst for this is potentially the the stable coin issuers

who select like this ofac compliant chain and only allow redemptions on that chain and then you know we see it we see a ton of volume flood over to that that censored chain in order to have a reliable back and forth with the stable coin issuers since you know they're providing a financial stake that underpins that chain and that leaves you know an open void for kind of like the censorship resistant uh chain to have you know its own its own governance process and they have in that case you know two two independent chains yet is there really uh a reason to

have all that volume on that chain there's it seems like there's a better way to organize kind of the collective those who wish to comply versus those who wish to remain censorship resistant you know still combine the liquidity in some way shape or form and have you know the sensor the transactions that would be censored in a sensor chain may be siled off or or not infringing on those who wish to remain compliant you know but but still incorporated into the into the overall chain but for me the biggest issue is uh Elon Musk uh once said the the government is

um a car a corporation that has a monopoly on violence and in it funnily in in a documentary I just watched last week and someone else the journalist said it as well he just replaced violence with legitimate power and it made me think like basic and wizag they uh they say jump and we we almost outright ask how high it's like we can try and adapt you know there are a few uh Minds in history that have said intelligence is your ability to adapt but

it's one thing for you to adapt in nature it's another thing to adapt against another intelligent being like yourself then it's an endless death spiral because um they they they will always change regulations so that you are illegal then what do you do that you basically are getting cornered it's like playing chess against someone who defines the rules of chess and this is what scares me interesting yeah the uh the the Monopoly they have on legitimate Powers is uh is a concerning one since

since like you're saying they can simply change the rules and you know it it it does kind of uh indicate you know that the government is an opponent and I don't quite you know share that view where I think of it more like the analogy Nathan that that you mentioned at the top of the podcast where like this government you know should be kind of like a shadowy figure in the background as the communities you know like you know fulfilling the mission and the government is simply they're leading it but it's almost a two-way street because there isn't no there's no individual that's leading the government it's like it is the collective and you know it's almost like the community itself and every one of us as

individuals could be like the shadowy uh characters in the background that are lifting up the government and you know the government's kind of fulfilling the mission that we wish to fulfill it on you know it's a it's a question of how um you know and this is getting back to like uh like ethereum classic days but like how how uh immutable do we wish to make these rules like you know um the government can simply change the rules of Chess and then we have to comply or do we wish to remain immutable and you know not not real and just live by you know solidified rules uh and then

it's very clear you know what to live by and what's it not but then we were we remove or decrease the level of adaptation that we that we you know each have and kind of like that that uh that level of flexibility and and freedom that we have to to maneuver um and adapt it's uh yeah yeah I mean you know how they how they capture black hats through honeypots and so what what if they just sit back wait until we ourselves built that big Honeypot and then they just say okay you you you're now ours you're

trapped in you build your own cage like they at one point whether that's through the lobby of VCS or not I don't know but they declared either not a security like what is what what is guaranteeing us that in the future they will just not flip the switch and say oh it's a security and then it's all over that easy but they they don't want to do it like with like until you show your face like that they'll let you grow build it up and then when you when you think you are at your best then they will attack like if you want to say uh if you're some crazy

totalitarian dictator in some country that you don't like football uh fans you you find them all bad Hooligans how do you capture them how do you lock them up oh you build the biggest Stadium you create the the best tournament get them all to turn up buy tickets turn up and then you lock them in so they they just wait for us to build our Honeypot ourselves and then they'll lock Us in in Nathan talking about totalitarian dictators like he isn't one uh in this example um I just wanted to quickly comment uh on what you said before Rob not to Segway

or can I derail Nathan uh but just kind of highlighting how uh you kind of said the dynamic between the Dao and the community uh kind of moves into itself it's kind of like the the oroborus dynamic or like the Dao governs the community directs the community but the community controls the Dao so it's like kind of this uh you know uh infinite of course not to plug infinite again but it's this kind of infinite Dynamic where it's like uh you know the community working with itself to direct itself to you know you can add twos forever basically right uh I just wanted to quickly comment on that because I thought it was uh interesting yeah and in the in the example of DX Dao you know the the community has all of the decision-making power on what the

Dao says to do right like you know we talked extensively about the relative majority um you know if there's a financial stake and then the the absolute majority if there's not and I'm fairly certain like this ofac decision was chosen by like you know maybe 12 people in a room to represent like you know the one person okay well yeah that call it call it centralization you know uh so you know they're they're making decisions to represent like the the entire global population like you know this oh factless impacts not just Americans but it impacts people worldwide and you know uh people that are members of digital nation states as

well and I mean you know all of us in in this in this uh room this digital room we you know we understand and I my opinion is agree with the elements of decentralization as a valuable tactic to remove malicious actors or at least mitigate them yet the government just hasn't caught on and and that's just you know I guess the traditional uh politicians you know those uh actors who are who are you know still hold this Monopoly on on legitimate power um

or at least you know are at the the fingertips of violence you know they have violence at their fingertips they they still whether it's a whether it's a individualistic uh Monopoly that they wish to cling on to you know Nathan you mentioned kind of Nash equilibrium that you know even though it's for decentralization is you know best for the collective good you know these people in power don't wish to establish it since it would effectively remove their power um and ultimately you know like all of us in this room understand and agree that decentralization is the uh is the solution to the centralized attack vectors yet that that solution

still hasn't made its way up to you know the executive branch or and and you know the White House or DC whatever you want to call it um well I'm hopeful that you know kind of a new a new era this new generation of you know kind of digital Nomads but also those who just generally understand the benefits of decentralization can start to educate those in office as you will and like those with you know governmental power um about the benefits and the value of decentralization so that we don't see these uh centralized choke points which could pave the way for malicious uh actors to

take advantage of of the collective well said um I also want to to joke how you kind of imply that there was governance in this room so going to kick Rob off his own podcast here um but uh kind of talking back a little bit to the start of that um uh I think you kind of mentioned like government Authority and like the centralization of the decision-making process in kind of I guess referring to the United States but maybe more globally uh it's really an interesting topic and it's like can can the globe effectively become a Dao like can you have the entire world operating one single Dao on behalf of the planet can

you have you know countries operating on their own Dows uh of course this is very forward thinking of but we actually did have an ex-contributor uh Caden uh that used to uh contribute to DX style that wrote A series uh called why Dows and part two of that series uh he kind of titles the New World Order uh if I remember correctly uh and it's kind of the power of international Dao's it's like having a dow on like a country level remedy International kind of like disputes coordination failures um like for example the global climate crisis um you know pollution security um I think that's kind of like an interesting thing to kind of look to Awards and it's like will the people in power let it come to a stage where the

people can even make those decisions or is there some other system that kind of remedies that in the long term that's kind of a good introspective thing I think to kind of think about yeah I haven't had a chance to check out those articles um I'll I'll give them a look and uh you know with regards to America's government specifically I I've heard it coined as like more reactionary where America will kind of waits for something bad to happen and then go back and fix it rather than you know have the forward-looking approach to to proactively uh search out a solution and prevent the problem and you know I think what you're talking about is especially important kind of as we look to like

interplanetary uh societies you know if you know let's say 20 years down the line however long down the line people are living on Mars you know like the people on Earth need to band together you know to support those on mars or defeat those who are maliciously attacking us from some you know unbeknownst world that's way out there right now and has malicious actors so you know ultimately we're all in this together so uh you don't want a Mars Dow or a Mars dictatorship is the question you should be asking yourself right now and let us do we have consensus to close out on that note and leave the audience with uh I vote Yes nice yeah

all right sounds good guys cheers it's a pleasure as always every bit of it