DeFi by Design EP#80: Liquid Staking Strategies & ETH Merge W ANKR

Transcript

welcome to D5 by Design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate Empower and enrich it's your boy Andy and welcome back to the D5 site YouTube Channel smash the like button on this video that really helps us out and sit back and enjoy the content thank you very much what's going on guys welcome back to the D5 by Design podcast episode 80 here today A big milestone for US 20 more to get to 100 we're grinding through these and today excited to talk about what's coming up with uh ethereum and the merge is coming I think we just saw the announcement uh there's like three or four more testnet merges happening and then we have got uh to be announced but

middle of September is the actual merge date or the expected merge date which based on the ethereum community might not happen but we're optimistic and excited today to be talking with uh a protocol in a developer Felipe who has been building on anchor and and building out their liquid staking uh we're gonna discuss what the merge means for ethereum what liquid staking means um for defy yields how you guys can get better yields with some of these liquid staking tokens um you're going to talk about kind of what the post merge world looks like some evolutions of yield farming and whatever else we are going to cover we

will talk about so excited today of course yeah today we're talking about the ethereum merge and the post-emerge world and anything else that Felipe has in store for us so good morning Felipe how are you hey good morning I'm good and you thank you for hosting me yes sir yes sir um so do you think the merge is going to happen on schedule well what do you think there uh well you know I I think there is a often something unexpecting happening and some delays can occur uh but yeah I think we we should focus on is like you know the Milestone is approaching and yeah what it means uh for the community uh you know post merge what

what's going to happen and you know if there is eventually some delay you know I think it's uh not necessarily a big deal but it's it will be nice to get prepared about what's coming yeah yeah definitely I this has been like the event that uh all the defy people have been excited about for forever now it's like been forever on the horizon it feels closer than ever but also like sentiment around ethereum and D5 and nfts even endows is like all-time lows like I mean I mean like sentiment is just in the in the in in the gutter when like one of the biggest events ever is coming when it's supposed to be like basically two months

um from from now uh it's so interesting to see how like the crowd and the wisdom of the crowd is sometimes so opposite of what you know is it is kind of coming in the future um you know and it's all about the prices and of course but um yeah we're definitely excited about about the merge um would love to kind of hear about what your what Your backstory is how you got involved with anchor and liquid sticking you know what what what that even is um and yeah uh yeah sure so I actually have a financial background I used to be a wealth manager for eight years um and yeah I was investing in crypto for the last

um yeah five years and I joined anchor a bit more than a year ago and uh yeah actually when I started to dig into defy and trying to understand it um yeah I got really hooked into liquid sticking so at the time I I got really impressed by yeah anchor it was in December 2020 they were the first ones to uh to create East liquid staking at the time and the main reason it was to provide liquidity for sticky threats until the merge happens uh and when I join if I think it was about six months later my task was to expand the concept of liquid sticking to other chains where

you can actually unstake so it kind of forced me to kind of understand okay what's going to happen post merge so what is the purpose then of liquid sticking is it going to be just like irrelevant or you know is there still something that is useful for liquid staking so that's where I started to to expand that narrative that liquid sticking is like solving the capital inefficiency of proof of stake it's enabling Define composability on top of staked eth but also then sticked you know Avalanche stick pnb stigmatic and so on and so forth and and ultimately can also become a staking a liquid infrastructure for uh integrators such as

um yeah block five unfortunately Celsius and obviously for them it's a way to more easily offer that kind of staking infrastructure surface in a much easier way by just delegating all the operational aspects to liquid sticking providers for instance yeah did the um I mean the the concept of liquid sticking is basically like you are able to run you're you're able to be part of of a validator node which uh secures These proof-of-stick Chains um without having to do all the technology and all of the all of the coding and the brunt work effectively um which really takes out a huge step for a lot of people

um bankless and through other kind of uh threads about this idea of a risk-free yield on eth or the risk-adjusted yield on each post merge um you know do you have any thoughts on what this means kind of for as an asset um you know what is this concept of uh this like Risk adjusted yield or this like kind of like you know like I guess it could be like a benchmark yield for crypto um in terms of of all stakeable assets um eth being kind of like the highest market cap um what are your thoughts on this concept and like what does this mean yeah that's a good point so for yeah I think you have to see every chain like a

crypto economy in itself and then you have the apps that's really you know represent that crypto economy and for every economy uh then you you have some reference rates rights and in the case of eth it's sticking rewards in case of Evelyn it's Avalanche staking but there is still I I will say that using the term risk free right is really like the analogy with stratify where obviously governments in the central bank they can just print money in our case here there is still like some risks involved right where obviously being a validator uh delegates taking let's say on on polygon or using liquid sticking have different type of risks with liquid sticking you

still have the smart contract risk with delegates taking you don't have that smart contract risk anymore and if you're using a custodian well you always also have you know some problem problems with the keys so there is still a few risks involved and however then we have also competing you know benchmark yield as well you know if you look at Ave you know lending interest on eth we're lending interest on medic uh on Ave as well on polygon Network you will notice that it's often you know lower than the staking rewards why because there is even lower liquidity risk right for Lending interest because you cannot when you unstake Matic for example you you

can do it actually when you withdraw funds from Ave you can do it you know pretty much any time unless the utilization rate is at 100 with liquid sticking you still have you know the ability to unstake so redeem it back to let's say anchor for example but then you have an unbanning period so that part of staking and staking with liquid sticking you need to see it a little bit like the primary market and unstaking can take a few days which is dependent on the unbanning period and then you have the secondary Market which is trading liquid sticking tokens on the decks and here it might have a different price depending on the liquidity on a decks right so I think there is really that

competition between lending interests and staking rewards and then it's kind of hard to Define you know with the clear-cut you know sticking is The Benchmark yield or lending interest is The Benchmark yield uh I personally believe more that this will be a convergence of the lending interest towards the staking rewards as then you might have really some very interesting low risks strategies where you could just potentially stake borrow let's say eth at a lower rate than steak with liquid staking and you take that leverage the big issue is that unfortunately it seems that some providers did that but the issue is that

if liquid sticking is not a redeemable token yet if East liquid sticking was a redeemable token like medic Avalanche BNB liquid sticking R well then that kind of you know margin lending and everything and liquidations will probably not happen uh because they will have the options to just unstake right so so I think here it's a very big difference but yeah ethereum with a post merge uh I think ethereum will become actually less risky so that will be you know very interesting the problem right now or or the situation right now is that you know like the snake eats kind of d-pay or just basically not being one to one

there's been a lot of talk of it being a d-peg but it's not necessarily A d-pay as you're saying it's just more of a it's not redeemable right now but with the other assets like BNB and Matic and and avacs that are redeemable um you know we're we're able to see some interesting kind of lending and borrowing strategies um come to the market because of these um do you do you ever see a world where um those staked assets like anchor sticked BNB or avex or or Lido State you know polygon or anything or do you see a world where those are like the base layer like the base kind of uh layer of

settlement where the the BNB token almost becomes just uh a non-factor compared to holding staked BNB or Matic so where there is enough liquidity on decentralized exchanges and um other areas to trade where you know basically those assets become like they they almost overtake their non-productive forms if you will um yeah I mean I I think so I think but I just believe that there will be obviously several providers uh with two main sources of let's say low risk uh rewards which is lending interest and

staking rewards having lending interest that is a bit less risky so the rewards should be slightly lower and for uh sticking rewards where it's a little bit uh yeah it will be slightly higher probably is the sticking rewards but still with that unbunding period uh you know that provides a little bit higher liquidity risk for for that option and uh I personally believe integrators that will probably you know in their own way diversify you know across all these baskets because obviously if you're using like a small lending platform and and you're learning to Ave in terms of you know liquidity risk it's you know not necessarily the same right maybe you

go to a smaller peer-to-peer learning platform there is only 10 million liquidity obviously if you provide 2 million in there you're represent already 20 percent of the pool right so if the utilization rate is at 85 percent yeah you cannot remove instantly your funds that's kind of problematic uh so diversification is key and but that's also then has some level of complexity potentially for um you know integrators that will have to manage you know these strategies and obviously like like investment funds in traffic every fund manager has a different you know risk strategy and they're you know managing things in a different way I think uh with the

yeah using blockchain you know as a financial infrastructure I think really the improvements that we should have is really to offer that transparency uh meaning that if you know for example block fi is offering a yield strategy uh you know because this is on chain it will be really appreciated to have Real Time full transparency about the state of that strategy you know what is really going on I know that some integrators issue like monthly reports you know like funds uh but I think we really have the room to really offer that Improvement and offer that real time transparency which will also be important to provide more trust to the system since now you

know uh given the the latest events uh trust has been you know a bit broken for certain providers C5 providers so um yeah I really hope to see that involvement in the ecosystem yeah that's definitely big one I agree it's kind of the whole point of of all of this really um is to make that kind of transparent trustless thriving system uh without you know being behind closed doors if you will um that kind of Switching gears back to the merge before Robbie dropped off he shot me a quick a quick message and he was curious um and you know and and I am as well

obviously you don't have a crystal ball here but we're curious what you think about a potential for happening due to the merge uh you know what the what the chances are of that you know what why this would happen you know and what it could look like um I mean yeah there is always like a chance that there is a fork um like ethereum classic uh you know so a few years ago um I mean I think I think like all the effort that has been put to the like to to make the transition to the merge uh I personally believe that you know most of the people

will stick with the main plan uh and you know if there is any part of the community uh that is willing to take a different direction of words might eventually happen but I personally believe that you know the merge is really you know very much anticipated I think to be honest that there is more and more new projects and developers that are just keeping you know ethereum completely due to the high gas fees and they're going straight to polygon or Avalanche or BNB chain and uh yeah I I really hope that's you know this is coming soon so that you know there is you know more Builders uh and more Innovation happening on ethereum again uh because you know it makes already a

few months right that's every new project that you see they're mostly not starting on ethereum but they're starting you know elsewhere yeah yeah and I tend to agree I think there's been a lot of effort and time and thought behind going into towards proof of stake and I mean obviously the miners might have a different thought process but um you know yeah of a fork seems to be kind of kind of foolish like if you think about it from the miners perspective I mean if you've got all this equipment and assumingly a nice stash of eat you know you could basically either start to mine other chains or sell all your youth stake it and just basically get that yield

without having to even own the machines um so there's you know there's there's or do a mix of cut of kind of both um you know so yeah I mean the fork would be it would be a wild a wild run but um I'm not sure that we see it either but obviously it's it's it's in the cards um kind of switching back to liquid sticking now so um in a in a post merge World um are you of the belief that we will see some higher lending and borrowing rates on uh liquid stick eth lower rates kind of what are what will be some of the driving factors uh for the the desire to lend and borrow um these you know staked eth

um and um you know what are you what are you expecting there as far as the yields come so I think both merge so when things stabilize you know a few months after I personally believe that logically the risk of staking it is going to be lower because it will be you know certainty about the unburning period and it's no longer being like unknown so I think this is already a major risk uh difference when compared to other chains and currently ethereum is lagging behind in terms of stick sticking ratio so there is only about 10 percent of ease being staked uh for a polygon I think it's about 33 percent for Avalanche it's about 60 percent for BNB it's about 80

percent right so there is obviously like a lot of room for improvement and if you think about uh the staking ratio it really means that if it's staked those tokens are like out of circulation so it's decreasing also the circulating Supply to give a reason for people to just State contribute for the security uh so if the staking APR will be lower than now because there is less risk simply right at the same time we know that the block subsidy and the revenue tip you know to validators is also you know going to be now part of the revenue stream for stakers so the amount of revenues are also going to to increase

so then you know that the denominator of that equation right which is revenue generated by you know the validators divided by the staked amounts gives you the staking API so that means that the amount of east states needs to increase uh to basically match that equation right and I think that we will see that convergence you know of the sticking ratio of eth going closer to its peers yeah I mean as and as each price goes fluctuates up and down in dollar value the the dollar value of the yield obviously changes up and down but the percentage remains a factor of um yeah as you're saying the amount of

each staked uh and you know compared to the um overall um just like you know the the tip and the subsidy and the amount of each stake and just kind of make sense that the yield would technically be lower in the future based on less risk but I've been seeing things that are saying that the expected yield is seven percent or something or five seven eight percent on each but right now it's at four percent it might it might happen it might happen like right after the merge rights just because you have that increased amount of revenues coming so this is something that might eventually happen but you know if right now there is people that are happy to stick eat for four percent if you

project yourself like in six months when you know everything transition already and the market stabilized well you know if there is less sticking risk to stake ease now and people do it for four percent maybe they will still do it for three percent eventually right so this is something that's uh you know I personally believe um will you know likely uh happen but but I don't disagree with the you know the forecasts you know mentioning seven percent short term that that can perfectly happen yeah I mean it's I mean it's too easy if it would be that high for so long something there'd be some extraneous risks and the idea is that staging each shouldn't be that shouldn't be that much

more risky than just holding a knee position itself so really you should you know there should there wouldn't be that much of of a payout um yeah I'm curious what you guys are working towards at anchor um you know with with this launch coming of the merge kind of what are you guys you know what's on your agenda um here now yeah so we actually allowed uh announced this week our collaboration with the SSV Network so for those that are not familiar with SSV I mean basically you know ethereum is going to be proof of stake most other teams are a delegated proof of stake so basically sticking

with other chains will still be actually easier because you just delegate stick to a validator for ethereum it will still be relatively complex because you need to have 32 East rates you need to be a validator you cannot just delegate stick like that so SSV is basically working for already you know more than a year on a trustless system where you can basically delegate the validation Keys uh to SSV nodes and then you have those node operators that are basically you know doing the job of being a validator in a trustless way so we we do have like a very similar system because we actually have 208 node providers in our

ecosystem which is like semi permissionless currently we basically stopped accepting no node providers because we feel like we have enough and accepting more it means that you're diluting you know the apy of your let's say power users right that have been like a node providers since day one um so with SSV is really creating that open market meaning that we're going to launch a second version of if liquid sticking using you know that SSV Network infrastructure offering a fully trustless alternative for eth liquid staking right obviously there is you know it's very new it's still on test net so there is some let's say execution risk or a technological risk that's

obviously we believe SSV is going to you know be in line with the highest security standards so we're going to have for you know some time these two versions where you have the initial system that is not fully trustless because you need to trust anchor for that system and the other alternative that will be you know trustless so that's something that we we believe uh will be really interesting and then having they already have a lot of of node providers that's why participating as well in SSV Network so we believe it will be yeah really interesting for supporting the ecosystem and you know recognizing when there is other teams you know working very heavily on

something very specific we're glad to partner with them since so you know as a web 3 infrastructure provider we're not just doing liquid staking so we have also other you know product clients and uh yeah we cannot you know Focus yeah we cannot have the same amount of focus on every single product line uh than competitors and successful teams that just do that yeah interesting and we we kind of think that the liquid staking Market will probably just continue to grow over the next couple years I mean especially when you when you like introduce this to like traditional Finance like like you know you you worked in that

space for some time like you know do you think that that those types of entities would be interested in something like a staked East product like you know how would you go about explaining that to them like why would they you know why would an institution want to look at something like this yeah I mean there is many institutional investors interested but currently you know because you know having 32 East is not really an issue for them and because they have so much liquidity that using D5 you know it doesn't necessarily offer the amount of liquidity that they need right so they're just delegates taking or being a validator you know that that's where actually most of the staked assets for most chains come from right it's mostly

institutional investors already uh offering liquid sticking uh offers really that's additional layer of risk which is a smart contract risk and they need to rely on the threshold signature mechanism to hold the smart contract keys and obviously we cannot give it to them because it's like a we need to preserve the fungibility of the product right uh so so that that's where I personally believe that liquid sticking will be democratized in a way that we might end up offering like white label liquid sticking to institutional investors and and basically offering white label in uh like East liquid staking for example to

let's say we're not in contact with them it's just like a random example let's say Goldman Sachs so well then basically we're giving them the keys of the smart contracts but they're the ones using that if anyone wants to delegate stake kind of we're using their version of liquid sticky no problem they can do it and if we have enough demands we might even potentially consider not only delegating the validation keys to uh you know node providers but we might eventually also delegate sticks simply with the white label Solutions of our institutional clients to diversify being kind of a rapper eventually so that that's the kind of thing that we're

thinking about but I personally believe attracting more uh volume print from institutional investors uh so either they will trust you know that trustless system similar to SSV or they will like to have their version you know of their own obviously that will be very very big institutions potentially going that route but then there is still you know family offices and you know players in between that can you know use one version or the other I'm curious if you think that aside from the liquidity issue uh which is obviously makes sense you know

just based on size of you know transactions for these institutions to make it worthwhile but I'm curious if you think if you think they have questions about kind of like the inflation or the inflationary mechanism that is staking like that these new tokens are basically created um and on something like ethereum like there's no there's no cap necessarily obviously we've got eip1559 so you know we can dive into that as well but I'm curious like if you fielded any questions you know about like how does this end or like you know where does this stop you know with regards to the inflation well I mean for I mean for for free trim rates obviously like staking is offering

that um feeling of stable rewards right that I very like they're not really volatile just because you know it's based on block subsidy right and then with the gas fees that they collect you know then they're planning to be burned so that's then Nets you know there is a like an inflation that will likely be lower at the same time you have audio chains like BNB chain where the gas fees are going directly to the validators so the volatility of the sticking rewards is actually you know bigger I remember like eight months ago it was still like 25 staking rewards on BNB and now it's only

about five percent right just because there is less transactions less gas fees and that's really really interesting because somehow how the money velocity of BNB is kind of being captured into the sticking rewards right so that that's you know something that is very interesting and an alternative model than you know traditional you know finance and central banks and everything uh so I don't think it's an issue as long as there is you know gas fees uh that are you know in a similar uh situation you know than the amount of tokens being minted to incentivize the validators right so I'm not sure about for example if you check Phantom you know if they end up having not many you

know gas fees and transactions and no burn at all and they're just minting more and more and more you know that can eventually be like an issue and but the gas fees is also a reflection of more users using your network and creating network of adoption right so yeah creating inflation Forever Without growth in gas fees where even just users using your platform which is the same ultimately uh that's might be you know eventually an issue but I think everyone is kind of you know capable to create their own opinion about uh do I want to have exposure like on some tier 2 Chain or do you want to have exposure on a tier one chain where you believe there

will be more and more users because ultimately you know the sticking rewards is not the main attractive point right you need to believe on the Chain first to have ethereum or a polygon or you know BNB uh and and then the fact to you know stake is you know a secondary decision like you can deal with and bear some smart contract risks some liquidity risk or you can just not do it right but the main decision is still like do you believe in the future of that chain because the most of your gains are going going to come from the Press appreciation of the token not from the sticking rewards obviously rewards is kind of just like a cherry on top if

you're a long-term you know convicted believer of of that particular chain and I don't think that ethereum will face the issue of of lack of growth um because I think we'll see layer twos really massively grow on their adoption and those will basically just pump fees pretty heavily to the main chain and to to the stakers um you know and then of of of course you've got the EIP 1559 in place which you know kind of takes away some of that inflation um so I mean really like yeah pitching the idea to an institution of liquid staking on ethereum I mean it's

something that they've probably never even seen or heard of before in terms of a financial product because of well the Titan like the technology of the blockchain but also just the the type of asset that ethereum is it's kind of like there's not really anything else in the world like it which you know is quite is quite exciting most definitely um yeah I want to kind of switch gears to the uh steak eth um pre-merge event now we kind of are seeing it I think on Leo it's trading still just under one to one it's recovered a bit um you know is this just a a risk premium that people are paying that it's worth less a little bit less because of

the assumed risk of this um you know what are your thoughts on on why um you know that staked is still off off of one to one and and um you know it being non non-redeemable what do you do you have any predictions for potentially what might happen to uh these non-redeemable staked assets whether it's anchor or or Lido or anyone else you know leading up to the merge like you know do you do you think that they're gonna kind of come closer to parity go further apart like you know do you have any kind of like speculations there okay yeah I think it's very interesting that you know because uh for example sdeath

from Lido was trading at the at fair price for such a long time and it gave that you know illusion of price stability I think most Market participants perceived it almost like some sort of stable coin that just earns rewards on top and they kind of forgot right that it's not a redeemable token so most of the liquidity risk is dependent on the size of the liquidity pools and obviously they did a like a phenomenal job to have like very large liquidity pools on curve for example to accommodate rights like all these new participants the the thing is like the the bigger is the liquidity the bigger participants it brings uh and then if

you have well but then they're not necessarily aware that you know imagine like they have 300 million liquidity and you have like one Institutional Investor that is like okay I have five percent of the total video curve that's fine but maybe there is 20 other people that are in the same situation right so um the the thing is uh because the supply of the liquid staking token is not elastic because it's not redeemable well then if at some point people want to just you know sell their St es their stick teeth well they're creating basically selling pressure and and here what just happened is like the liquidity pool was you know not big enough to accommodate all the selling pressure

because they got in some of them because of the farming rewards as well otherwise it's not really interesting to be a liquidity provider and yeah that's basically it shows that over the last few months we just have more selling pressure from just staked eth and the price stability might eventually come back when people are kind of willing to move back in into you know ethereum if you think about it the staking rewards how does it change per chains in general it changes because there is like the staking ratio is increasing or the staking ratio is decreasing right so the more a stick e

theory is the lower the APR and technically if we were post merge the last sticked if there is less eth being staked then the rewards should go up but because you cannot unstake the only way to reflect that kind of pullback is through now the price of eth liquid staking and it's uh you know discount so you can actually calculate what I personally call like the yield to Redemption ratio which is you know assume that you can have if liquid sticking let's say a two percent discount and then the rewards are at four so then you could assume that if when you can redeem you get basically in one year like six percent instead of four

because you bought it at the discount so that's might also mean that actually the sticky rewards now if the market was fully open and we could just unstake maybe it means that it should be six percent now the rewards on eth and not four percent right but because yeah we're still in transition and the merge it didn't happen yet um yeah you cannot really let the market kind of really reflect what is the the true rate so yeah that's basically my opinion on the topic but I'm not worried about the discount in itself um yeah so I think whenever it happens the the merge and the redrawal which happens actually after the merge well

then you can just unstake and basically lucky makes difference yeah and and as you're saying on anchor as well there's an There's an opportunity for some Arbitrage between the two different types of State assets um you know when you bridge them over from each chain um you know what is that why is that mechanism there for you guys what does that do for uh for the yeah sure so yeah sure so I mean there is obviously you know ethereum not only on ethereum chain but also on BNB chain on polygon and so on and so forth arbitrum obviously so uh we personally believe that liquid sticking should be like a

multi-chain experience and we should not restrict people to have if liquid sticking just on ethereum WE personally believe that you know each would be accessible from any chain ultimately so that's why we created our own bridge to be able to offer that kind of multi-chain sticking experience and uh we're continuing to make that product evolve to offer ultimately a cross chain sticking experience where ideally we would love to see people you know let's say on BNB chain and they have eth and they will just stake their Ease on BNB chain on anchor and they get East liquid staking right so that's ultimately we believe you know the like a true crushing sticking experience that will

be very beneficial and then obviously you know if you can borrow eth more cheaply on you know Venus on BNB chain than on Avion ethereum well you know we want people to be able to exploit you know that kind of you know Market opportunities and exploits you know differences from different chains yeah I mean there's all these different Arbitrage opportunities because of these bridges on different chains um which is really interesting that that we're seeing that because this is kind of new for everybody the whole like the multi-chean world the the bridging and the different assets on different chains and the wrappers and all this um but yeah it provides these kind of

like understanding the risk opportunity and then being able to act on it to basically make um you know some sort of educated kind of gamble on on a play like this and yeah it comes so it's it's so funny a lot of so eth is so different than these other stakeable assets right now because it's just not it's you just can't get the instant uh instant Redemption on it because it's just it's the merge hasn't happened yet so it kind of layers in all these different complications that you know are not present with these other assets so definitely excited for a more fluid world where we see uh you know Eve being able to just be instantly taken out of the the smart contract the staking contract

um you know and just use um you know in defy or you know be able to pull out to your bank account to cash or whatever it is um yeah yeah to be honest it's you know also one of the reasons why we kind of decided to focus more on BNB liquid sticking and medic liquid sticking and basically lets our East liquid sticking now honestly it's traded at the discount of about 12 percent if I'm not mistaken uh and it's been like that actually for several months and you know for us you know the only alternative to fix that it was like okay we can add farming rewards to liquidity pools so that it becomes

bigger and we're like but why should we have farming rewards if the discount is an incentive in itself already you know to just have it so it didn't really make sense to you know try to compete with the Lido on that front and we believe that there was really a much bigger opportunity to explore with other chains uh what's going to become eth liquid sticking post merge right okay what if you now created isolated lending for you know liquid staking what if you create an interest rates model for on on the learning platform that is actually uh indexed with the staking rewards to optimize The Lending interest and exploring and educating Partners on other chains about that we believe that

it was like most suitable strategy for you know the current moments so that then we can basically uh export all that know-how you know back to ethereum when you know ethereum is finally ready to be you know fully redeemable and then we can have those use cases as well Finance chain had so much action too in D5 there are so many users so many gassies happening even though the fees are smaller than ethereums there's still just so much activity um so definitely you can understand where that what um you know where that decision comes from um you know and polygon as well polygon just somehow seems to just secure every massive partnership like I just recently got one with Disney or something like

that it's just yeah they have an insane kind of uh business team um just absolutely growing that so I expect both to to grow as well um as we kind of wrap up here yeah I mean I'm curious you know how our community can get involved with liquid staking you know what to check out um you know how to how to be active how to help out um you know anything on that front uh yeah sure I mean you can't just go on anchor.com on staking um so there you can see our sticking dashboards um so you can see all the liquids taking available uh next week which will have the like an upgrade of our D5 dashboard

on anchor staking where you will be able to see all the use cases possible for liquid sticking from anchor on different chains um it's a multi-chain experience right after you staked if you see the dashboard you will see your personal positions we're also upgrading that to really allow you to basically see your yield like your annual expected yield uh and kind of you know um making users more sensitive about how much it means in US dollars right because people tend to put that as a second priority you know earning yield on Ethan B and because it's the not the main reason why they have it but you know when you figure it out that oh actually you know I can earn 20 000 more

per year if I stake my assets um you know maybe you realize that you know why should you leave money on the table kind of and maybe it makes sense to to participate into speaking as well thank you so much for coming on it's been a pleasure Felipe and um yeah man excited to have the merge go through and see what happens thank you my pleasure are you gonna be in Paris did I ask you that no you said your team is going to be so I'm going to have to link up with them and uh yeah excited to yeah to talk about the merge with uh people in Paris and apparently East Berlin is gonna happen around the time of the merch that'll be interesting if if that goes through but um yeah thank you again for coming on Felipe