DeFi by Design EP#75: The On-Chain Era Of Sports Finance w Athlete X

Transcript

Welcome to DeFi by Design, where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate, empower, and enrich. It's your boy Andy, and welcome back to the DeFi State YouTube channel. Smash the like button on this video. That really helps us out, and sit back and enjoy the content. Thank you very much. What's going on, guys? Welcome to episode 75 of the DeFi by Design podcast. Here today, in the midst of a bear market, to talk about what we are building in DeFi.

Um, special guest here today, Kevin. We're going to be talking a lot about sports finance and how DeFi can and and NFTs truly can make this entrance into real-world assets, uh, specifically sports. And there's a bunch of other applications, too, where we can kind of get away just from the small Ethereum ecosystem and kind of work through through, uh, the traditional world and kind of bring more types of people on chain to interact with DeFi and what we're building here. So, as always, here with Rob, as well. How you doing, Rob? Good morning.

Doing well. Happy to you, uh, have Kevin on here, as well. Uh, full transparency, I've been working with Athlete X for several months now, and I'm super stoked. I'm I'm psyched about this project. Um, it you know, crosses the chasm of bringing like real-world, like actually, you know, like physical, uh, objects into the on-chain world by, uh, by taking, you know, an in-game's, uh, an athlete's performance in their real game, and then digitizing that, and then obviously tokenizing it, uh, for an on-chain protocol. Um, so, yeah. I'm super stoked to get into it, uh, dig into sports finance and Athlete X, and here with Kevin. Kevin, how you doing,

man? Hey, how's it going, guys? Going well. Going well. You said So, Kevin, yeah. Um yeah, start us off. Uh you know, as far as sports finance, like you know, the traditional, I guess, sports finance market kind of looks like sports betting, kind of like betting against the spread, betting money line, um and then these kind of binary outcomes of, you know, a team either wins or loses, or a prop that, you know, hits or doesn't hit. Um you know, what what is new in this on-chain world uh new and different, you know, than than the traditional like Web2 uh and traditional sportsbooks?

Yeah. Um really what makes things new and different in the on-chain world is uh DeFi, right? Um and the ideas of DeFi especially. So, ideas of being able to do things in a distributed way, um being trustless and and permissionless allows for for these new ideas, new innovations to come into play, and then allows for the technology to create things that um couldn't really have existed before. So, you know, one idea deep inside the AthleteX thinking is um this idea of like synthetic synthetic assets, right? So, these things aren't really tangible, you can't really hold them, but um

through DeFi, you're able to to profit off of them, and you're able to make them real in a way. I think the word you use is tokenize, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, so tokenization of, you know, data in a sense. Uh the athletes are generating the statistical data when they play professional sports games, and then tokenizing that data allows for the digital object to to, you know, be created. Um and then obviously there's there's tons of use cases that evolve from there, um and and that's a result of of synthetic tokens uh that, you know, AthleteX is working on and and are used in kind of this on-chain sports finance world.

Yeah, and I want to hop in and add, you know, um AthleteX really builds on ideas that already existed in the ecosystem. So, really thinking like synthetics um and the financial engineering of the guys at the UMA protocol, they've um they really laid the groundwork for new ways of thinking about financial engineering um and new types of of financial um markets to be created, you know. So um Yeah, so um for example, there's these guys called like Prediction Strike um who like built up a athlete stock market. We've seen in the past other people have tried

different ways of going about it, but the way they do it isn't as durable because it's not DeFi. Yeah, it brings us to the concept of just like tokenizing everything in terms of like uh making a it's really like it's it's an interesting world of of of speculation on on everything. Sports betting has gotten huge with the with the development of uh apps like DraftKings and and Bovada and such and uh really what you're able to do is is basically speculate on on these different types of of games and athletes, but one thing that kind of stands out to me when it comes to gambling is that uh it's really all or

nothing. Like if you hit your bet, you you win or you lose, but there's no gradual scale, whereas investing, you know, you can lose 10% or make 10% or you can, you know, scale those out infinitely effectively. Um you know, what are your thoughts on taking uh sports gambling and making it more of like a a risk curve uh type of um environment and less so like a all or nothing environment. Yeah, Andy, it sounds like you've been reading the white paper, man. So, um yeah, so diving into that, um how that works and what makes Auctus a bit different is um yeah, we're not a binary binary you win you lose model, right?

Um we did explore with that, like what if there was like a a dead weight or a counterweight to um allocating all the capital on one side of the long short pair. But, I'm getting too technical. Let me back up a bit, right? Just like you said, with um how the system works is it's a linear scale payout. So, um it's not that one side only wins, one side only loses, but one side wins more because they're right and one side wins less because they're they're on the other side of that bet.

Yeah, and I I think it's interesting because you you point to like, you know, one one actor or one market participant they're not either right or wrong. In DraftKings, you know, or FanDuel or, you know, Bovada, you're either right or you're wrong based on the bet that you took. Whereas, with these athlete performance tokens, you're you're you're on a scale of right. You know, it's like you're not You might be 10% right or you might be 50% right. Um but it's not it's not a binary right or wrong. It's just kind of like, are you as right as you could be or as you or are you as wrong as you could have been?

Um and it and it opens up like the risk management uh tactics that are available in traditional investing where you can kind of gain your risk reward profile and tailor it to what your your risk tolerance is. Um and and take more calculated bets. And I I think that's kind of like what is making the gambling ecosystem a bit more mature. Um it's taking what what was previously like, you know, a a a market that you could only be right or wrong, and then now you can take uh more calculated bets, and either, you know, have a have a stop loss, you can kind of cut your

losses early, or you can, you know, really bet on your winners. And I think that's kind of the power of investing is a more it it it's more specific approach, it's more granular kind of and it allows for kind of more more complex strategies to arise um when there's more functionality that are that's built into the market itself. Yeah, you know, one way of thinking about it um is like something that is already out there and really mature, Polymarket, right? So, they facilitate um you know, hundreds of thousands um in volume for for predictions, right? And, you know, um it's a it's also a linear

scale payout, right? Like, um it's not it's not 100% probability that Twitter will be delisted, but at the same time, it's not zero, either. So um what we did at Augur X is that model. It's not 100% that Aaron Judge is going to have the best season ever, but it's not at zero, either. It's probably more likely, right? But, what makes us a bit is that you can trade your position of will Tom Brady play in one week of the NFL season with your guess of yes with your guess of

no to will NATO expand in 2022. Do you Do you Do you kind of see where I'm going, or is that um a bit out there? Right. Yeah, so you can yeah, you can kind of hedge your positions. There we go. There we go. Yeah. So, what do you think about bringing this this type of data in sports on chain? You know, what are some of the challenges that you guys have seen? What's your thoughts overall on web 3 and like the kind of concepts of ownership um and your digital kind of ownership and passport interacting with fans, with

sports, and with like these off-chain communities? Um what are your thoughts on the process of bringing them on chain? Yeah. So, my thoughts on like the process that it took to to create this, right? And then um from my experience, like what my thoughts are with what um the community idea and the idea of like community ownership ownership is, right? So, I'll start with community ownership. Um from my experience, right? Um It looks like really like those most likely to vote are like those most activated and the rest are a bit more like accepting of what what happens.

Um and you know, it's kind of like it's kind of like everything else, you know? Like um if we stay true to the term like currency like from my experience, it seems to me like a crypto the currency has almost become to like a currency for like an idea or like an economy, right? Um kind of like what the idea we were playing with um here is like creating like a digital economy of um of these of these um synthetic derivatives.

Um And that kind of ties into your other thing was like what is the challenge of bringing it on chain and um what was it like, you know, building the idea of it? Um one From my experience, right? To me, it seems like this like thing that of course it's going to happen and cuz I'm like staring at it every day. But um in terms of all the people out there in the world, um nobody's really nobody's really heard of this yet or is really paying attention just yet. And um yet when they they understand that there can be an economy for other types of prediction markets and

new types of things that people can gather information from. Um I think that it'll really it'll really change the world, right? Um I was at a bar doing what I do, hanging out, you know, drinking everything. And um I was you know, I've been talking about it with people in my local town and I showed I showed, "Hey, you know, like I told this guy, 'Hey, this idea I've been working on is now a real thing.'" And he said something that I was like "What?" He said like, "Do you understand what you've built? You know, you've changed the way people think about sports and investing forever."

And I'm like, you know, it it it doesn't it doesn't seem like that in the moment, but um it seems like that's the direction we're headed, you know, like um yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean, a lot of sports fans are I I think there's a broader concept of digital ownership here that that we can get into with with NFTs. Have you thought about kind of where where how NFTs could replace ticketing or could replace um you know, people's um you know, their kind of like digital identity and and kind of how that ties into you know, some of some

opportunities that that they could have uh with AthleteX or just you know, kind of, with their, with their, uh, activities. What Yeah, I What are your thoughts on like NFTs and digital ownership, um, for people who are not yet introduced to Web 3? Yeah, yeah. Um, we we, um, we worked with a guy who, um, ended up working for an NFT project and he had, um, he had a bunch of ideas of, um, like, just like the things you said, NFTs um, represent community ownership, you know, and they represent like incentive and like, um, being part of a club and community.

Um, and it sounds really interesting. Um, I I just don't know enough about it yet, you know, I haven't spent a lot of my personal eyeballs, just have heard through, uh, through the grapevine. Solid. Yeah, so getting a, you know, a bit more into like what Athlete X is and then kind of expanding from there about the different use cases and applications that that evolve out of it. Um, you know, from my understanding, we have the athlete performance tokens that that rise or fall based on the in-game performance of that athlete. Um, like you mentioned, athlete performance tokens are minted from UMA's long short pair contract. So, each, uh,

athlete token is either a long or a short based on, you know, the the directional exposure of, uh, their performance. So, I'm I'm interested in kind of like the the applications that evolve out of that that athlete token standard. Um, you know, now that Athlete X has built the kind of financial framework for a for a DeFi protocol that creates these synthetic tokens, what are some of the applications that are possible through the Athlete X protocol utilizing these athlete tokens? Kind of like, what what are the possibilities that are unlocked now that APTs are are a real uh, token standard? Yeah, they're real, you know. Um, it's crazy.

But yeah, so building off of the ideas that you just brought up, that's a great segue to what we want to push in our governance, right? So, um what we've what we've created so far using blood, sweat, and creative ideas is a proof of framework, right? Um really it's like, "Oh, okay. Here's a new way of thinking about things. Let's build on that new way of thinking about things with AXIP 0001." So, the idea there is to build in a DeFi way a token that represents someone's like aggregate standard, um the the cumulative value of their performance. Um you know, in the future it would mean and

creating like a a more like a a futures market, right? Like imagine multiple seasons down the road of um of of APTs, you can hold you can hedge against the risk of, you know, like your money line on Cristiano Ronaldo um because you hold his like his futures like 2 years down the line or something like that. Um it it it just opens new new ways of thinking. Yeah, I I don't mean to interrupt, but I was listening to to a like a Twitter video the other day and it was it was actually like one of these picks guys, right? And he was just saying like, "Hey, like here's a parlay, you know, for you. Like, you know, check out these

picks if you like, you know." He was kind of like ca- calling his bet. And he he mentioned how like, you know, you could take this this certain team to win. Um and if that team wins, it's very likely that a player on that team is going to get a hit. And I forget the the player that that he was pointing to. It might have been like Starling Marte. And if, you know, his team wins, it's it's very likely that Starling Marte is going to get a hit or, you know, even a little bit less likely, but still potential that he, you know, gets a home run and then they win. So, pairing, you know, the two possibilities into a parlay not that that's almost like taking leverage, right? Is, you know, I think this team is going to win and if they

win, it's it's likely that this that this player is going to get a hit. So, the opportunity for leverage in like the athlete axe economy, um you know, someone can go take their bet on, you know, a traditional sports book like SportX and then, you know, given that the that team is going to win, you're almost betting that the players on that team are going to do well. So, you could go and lever up by buying the athlete performance tokens that are on that team. And and the same is true, you know, to hedge against your bet. If you think this team is going to win, but you're not really sure, maybe like it's, you know, the middle of the game, they're not really doing well, you can pick up you can buy a athlete token for a player that's on the other opposing team and,

you know, hedge hedge against your bet and kind of bring your risk down your risk profile down a bit. Um and and that kind of speaks to like the investment nature, bringing, you know, the sports finance market from this this gambling risk curve, where it's just, you know, very binary, to more of a a more more mature market where there's an entire risk curve and you can kind of have a more complex strategy to take advantages of kind of the rise and falls of those different athletes performance.

Yeah, it's interesting trading on leverage. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, the athlete tokens kind of open up this new this new uh kind of market of taking leverage, hedging against your bets and then, obviously, like, you know, kind of playing playing the rise or fall of how that that team is doing in real time. Um and then you mentioned forward and and, you know, futures markets as well. Um as far as like, you know, taking these athlete performance tokens and then evolving them into like, you know, the the greater, you know, world of sports finance, what what do you expect kind of

in engages people on, you know, a sports mindset that maybe they're not so deep into DeFi now, but you know, they're really interested in sports. What do you see as the the the pull or the attraction of athlete tokens for for that demographic? Yeah. Um I really have to go based off of my experience and like the the interviews that I've done with like different people, right? So, and it helps to break it down by different types of people. Um because different types of people are incentivized or interested with different things.

It helps to start with you, Robbie, Andy. Um you guys are DeFi users, you know, um you know, maybe you're a bit of a degenerate, you like aping into different things, you see what happened with optimism and you're like, you know, this market seems interesting. I like sports. This seems fun. And so, you're going there and you're just um speculate to speculate. But, prediction markets are information markets and information means two things. One, they tell you about different things, but two, um they're information about something, right? Like they they about something. Um and so, another type of person who would be interested in using

this, um is someone who, you know, um m- my guess here is like someone who who makes makes money or or like cares a lot about how an athlete does. Um maybe they like they take care of um they take care of them like as a with like injuries or whatever. Um and they they'll be able to hedge against the outcome of certain seasons um by placing their money in a long or short position for that athlete. Um and then there's other people that are like finance professors who um they love sports.

Um they love their like local college basketball team. Um and they teach finance. Things like using a pricing formula, creating a pricing formula. Things uh more on the financial engineering side would be one other reason that they'd want to use this product to um to help create this um new type of marketplace. Does that make sense? Yes, it does indeed. I mean, I'm wondering what you what you think are are the best use cases sports-wise um you know, for this like is there a specific like is there a specific um you

know, sport or kind of event that you see the technology working best for and you know, thus giving the users the best experience? What are your thoughts on the the different sports and different applications of these you know, performance uh and can they be applied anywhere? Um these performance tokens Yeah, that's a great question. Uh I don't know the answer, you know. Um uh I can't imagine how people use it, but as different people with different interests and different wants look at it, I'm sure they'll like find a use case that fits their life.

Right. Yeah. Like one Got you. One quick example was like um I think last year we sponsored like a MMA tournament and like people there you know, maybe they could use like the the new type of APT to um um they're like young MMA fighters and you know, they're getting their career started and they're like broke as you know? And if there was a way for them to like issue their own tokens and sort of like bet on themselves and have people speculate on whether they do good or bad for the for their career, um would be a way for them to like finance themselves into into success potentially, you know?

Yeah. Interesting. And that that athlete themself Yeah, go ahead, Andy. Um yeah, no, I think I I think I was on the same page. Yeah, so so those are for the athletes. Yeah, where does the kind of um the like the speculator or the or the user come in there? Um Where does the speculator or user Where does the speculator or user come in? They speculate, you know, kind of like what speculators do, you know? Do they think that are they going to win their like next MMA tournament or um yada yada yada, you know? Um but I have to say like

you know, that was like um what came what brought that up was like when talking about um when talking to those people, they're like I I need this to solve this problem in my life. But um I don't know if or how that'll look, you know? It really just depends on people creating it and making it happen. Yeah. Yeah, the the use cases are are you know, they're abstract. Um because I mean, no one really knew like you know, what are ERC-20 tokens going to get used for? Um and then, you know, it ends up morphing into like these different kind of communities that are like these different tokenized

communities. And then I think the the same is kind of true for for NFTs, right? Like I I was around when NFTs were coming out and they were like, you know, this this new token standard ERC-721. Like, okay, cool, but like what does that what does that really mean? And then it took like a year for anyone to actually put a use case around it. And they called it CryptoKitties. And like it's just like a digital Pokémon, you know? Like it's like what like what is like a CryptoKitty? It was just like this piece of, you know, like art that you could see on the blockchain. So, I I think it's really open-ended as far as like

how the applications will evolve um based on a on on a new token standard. Um but if we point to like some of the applications that already see demand in the Web2 space, um I kind of anticipate like that market coinciding with, you know, the DeFi in the Web3 space on on a new token standard like, you know, we can picture fantasy sports as like, you know, a as a use case on an already existing Web2 platform that that, you know, has a significant base of users. What does that look like in Web3 and and how I guess how could fantasy sports incorporate athlete

performance tokens? Yeah, that's a great question. Um Mhm. Yeah, I I I don't know. I wonder um I wonder how they would use it. Let's see. Andy, do you have any ideas? Uh I was thinking that I mean, if you could if you could uh play play fantasy sports for you know, for your in your league for what you know, what whatever you guys

agree on like 100 bucks each or something. If you if the winner of the league could be calculated using athlete tokens for each each of the athletes on each team. Okay. Yeah. And and that that's one idea and you know, Kev jump in if you if you have others. I guess what I was what I was kind of getting at was kind of like an index token. Um where someone could someone could kind of build an index of these athlete performance tokens and track them as their team.

Yeah, so like an index token. Okay, yeah, yeah. Um actually that raises an interesting idea, right? So later later this year when we launch NFL APTs, um what if we could you could like basket together all the quarterbacks and bundle like those APTs into like a like those those like positions into a um I don't know, like where you just hold that on your in your wallet and just like ride it out to the end of the season and settle on all those positions or I wonder if somebody would like want to create a token that locks up all those positions and call that like an index

quarterback index or something like that. Quarterback long index. Exactly. And and I guess the inspiration for that is we were we were just chatting with the the notional finance team and a couple months ago they put together an index of stable coins and it was like this interest bearing you know, token where you have like a bunch of different tokens that are that are grouped together and there was USDC and die and USDT all in there deployed in some LPs and then each of these, you know, tokens that were basket basketed together were generating interest and then you could track them as, you know, one token and just like you're saying, you know, I I

guess users could could combine these athlete performance tokens in a, you know, several, you know, unique ways. Like a quarterback index. I I guess I was more pointing to like, if I could if I could build out, you know, like I play fantasy sports so like I draft my team, right? I'll draft like a running back and then a receiver and then a quarterback. If I could bundle up like each of those athlete performance tokens, I could have like my fantasy team.

Okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from. I think like building on that like core to core to Axis strategy is allowing others to build on those ideas, you know? Um Uniswap they have this idea of like permissionless innovation and, you know, they're saying that's core and key to DeFi and um you know, like it's not a bad thing that people build on our ideas because it just makes the pie bigger for everybody um and you know, like there's Bitcoin and then there's Bitcoin cash, right?

There's nothing wrong with Bitcoin cash existing. It doesn't take away from Bitcoin but adds adds to the sum of the whole really, right? Um and you know, like we, you know, we we created or offered a new way of thinking about sports and athletes and and fantasy and by letting others build on top of it, um it becomes more and more applicable to more and more people and more and more tangible to their lives.

Yep. And And you mentioned how like the pie is is greater, right? When like more use cases and applications are developed on top of the AthleteX protocol. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess I Could we Could you dive a bit deeper? Like, you know, how does the AthleteX protocol benefit from maybe a fantasy sports application um that incorporates, you know, athlete performance tokens? How does that benefit like uh AX token holders? Yeah. Yeah. Um you know, core to our strategy right now, at least, is by making AX token the token of collateral and liquidity for the system, right? Um and um

you know, it remains to be seen, but one of the ideas that we were holding holding to our core is that, excuse me, by building on top of, you know, the APTs um and by by using APT AX as collateral, we can expand this market of um expand this market based off of off of athlete performance in sports, right? Um the idea is that with enough volume going back and forth between an APT and AX um that that makes it so that AX fluctuates more and more with how athletes are doing um and

less and less eventually with like what what other markets are doing. Um and we'll have to see, you know, um but I'm I think, you know, that's part of our thesis and that's how AX token holders benefit from being building on AX protocol. And what what kind of chain you know, what is your thought on what where you guys are deploying or future deployments? You know, why did you choose uh uh polygon as of now? Kind of what are your thoughts?

Yeah um yeah, I remember this. Um you know, started off with Ethereum. Um went to Binance and then went to polygon. Um it's all about the money, you know. Cheapest fees, easy answer. And so building um building on that um yeah with it's the cheapest fees. Um and it's EVM compatible. So, like the technology already makes sense and it's easy to deploy to that versus something like Solana um which is written in Rust.

Um it was harder to it was just a new paradigm, you know, and you'd have to get over the learning curve to to deploy on Solana. Awesome. So, yeah, as far as like polygon deployment, you know, like now with these other like side chains coming out, you know, it seems like there's always like a newer, cheaper, faster chain available. Um what does scalability look like for AX? Um in terms of you know, generating the most demand for for athlete tokens and the most volume uh that's utilizing athlete tokens, whether it's

you know, trading athlete tokens directly or if it's indexing them and you know, trading them you know, as a quarterback index or running back index. You know, what is what is scalability look like? Um you know, starting with polygon and and going from there. Okay, for sure. Um, let's see. So um I don't know if you guys have heard, but um, there is these guys SportX who are launching their own chain that are focused on um, sports and crypto, right up our alleyway. And so, um, by staying focused and and staying core to that system, um, we can really hit our target market right where they are expected to be.

Um, you know, SportX is about crypto and and sports. And on their SX Bet product, um, they have a lot of different markets going on at once and a lot of different um, money lines going on at once. And um, now that they launched a chain, by staying right there, right in the middle of their ecosystem, we can grow stronger together um, by learning from their ideas, they're learning from our ideas, building on top of each other um, and um, and yeah, really just uh, just being one happy little uh, niche economy.

What's coming next for AthleteX and how can our community get involved? Yeah, for sure. So, um, ways for you to get involved um, is definitely on creating new ideas for new APTs to build on AX. Um, and also just, you know, using it, getting acquainted with it, um, telling your friends. Um, right now, an APT is about $100 worth of AXT to use and to mess around with. Um, and really just want to to see what you do with it and and new ways that um, you think bring value to the system.

Sweet. Kevin, uh, I got I guess I got two questions. One one we typically ask each podcast, and I'll start with like what what is like I don't know, like could you give us any alpha, you know, like what what's coming on the horizon? You mentioned um the SportX deployment. Um and you know, that that's a relatively nascent chain. So, there's not a lot of activity or TVL on that chain. Um are they doing any anything to incentivize uh applications and developers and builders over on that chain to to start generating TVL and and kind of bootstrap their their activity?

Yeah, they launched um they launched their own Trader Joe-like swap um called SharkSwap. Um you know, they're still, you know, letting it mature, taking their time, all good things. Um but that, you know, once that hits maturity will be another hub of activity in the DeFi space. Um and then really the best alpha that I can provide is AX alpha, right? Um and different different things that you can think about um is here's one, like the the collateral per pair requirement, right? So, we can we have the power to um set, you know, the range of APTs and

um and it it affects the scale of the market, you know? And so, um right now what we hope to see is once we see a lot of users using the platform um you guys tell me if I'm using this term correctly, but like an APT is almost like leveraged on AX, or it's backed by a lot of AX. So, minute moves in AX end up being major moves in APT price. Um and so, I'm just curious to see as we mature, like what what that ends up being, you know, what that looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. It'll it'll kind of pave the way for like new new opportunities, new applications, um, and use cases. Cool. And then the second question is, uh, if you could describe AthleteX to one individual like that are alive, like if you could, you know, get stuck in an elevator with anyone, uh, and have the opportunity to, uh, you know, speak on AthleteX, who would you choose and why? Yeah. Yeah.

If I could talk to anybody about a, I would choose Mhm. I would choose like young LeBron. And be like, "Hey, you know, there's this thing that, if you can figure out a way to profit off of, uh, Mhm. Let's see. Let's see. No, actually. I'd probably tell I'd probably tell like the head of like Goldman Sachs or something, you know?

It's like it's like, "Okay, take everything you know about all that you know. Now take your favorite sport, take your love for, um, golf or tennis or whatever. And, you know, they'll get and this is how it works. Um, because a lot of the words that guys in investment banking, um, guys that like like the CEO of Goldman Sachs use, we use that AthleteX. And a lot of that language overlaps. Except now it's about how Aaron Judge played this season or, um, how Tiger Phelps, LeBron James, Michael Woods, how they play and, um, how that affects

their performance and how they as bankers can use that technology. Cool man, that's awesome and congrats on the success so far. Excited to see where this goes and thanks for coming on Kev. Word, yeah. Thank you guys. It's been great and I hope to see you again soon. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thanks. Sounds good. We'll see you soon. Go AX, get it.