DeFi by Design EP#65: Building on Layer 2 in 2022 w Metis

Transcript

welcome to d5 by design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate empower and enrich it's your boy andy and welcome back to the defy slate youtube channel smash the like button on this video that really helps us out and sit back and enjoy the content thank you very much what's going on guys welcome to the d5 by design podcast today we are talking about layer 2 and why i believe layer 2 is just right around the corner in terms of massive adoption and development and narrative we kind of see it slip between the cracks if you will over the last few months as teams have been building and building and building and i think a lot of that is because our procurement

optimism took forever to come out and and they could not hit their deadlines at all and so the east community kind of shifted off into these other ecosystems where there was higher yields lower fees um you know and just overall a better experience but now we're kind of seeing that attention shift back and one of the biggest reasons is because of of who i have today on the podcast was which is elena she is the ceo and co-founder of metis dao and they are an optimistic roll up with a token already um and they are doing a whole lot of really interesting stuff on the layer two front really pushing the uh the vision of ethereum forward so excited to learn more about layer two optimistic roll-ups and just you know kind of dive in into

what this whole layer two summer is all about so um excited to chat today elena and uh how are you i'm good andy thank you so much for inviting me i'm very excited to be here and talk about layer twos yes layer twos so briefly what was your entrance into into d5 and and what kind of sparked you to dive into uh you know creating a layer to uh protocol for ethereum uh yeah so i've been in uh in a space for a while uh starting with my journey with cryptochicks creating a cryptics which is now an educational hub for women we educate women online giving them online courses and as well we help them to build their

businesses uh so started this the cryptics uh started with my friend natalie amelin that was in 2016 and it just started as a meetup group for women because we wanted to share the knowledge that we have because crypto and blockchain at that time was not you know widely known and accessible so we just wanted to share this knowledge with the women and as we progressed through our journey we found lots of women wanted to build the businesses but really can they could not because the developers are too expensive it's the huge learning curve then a fees that you high transactions are slow so all

that and and also like developers probably where they get the culprit in there because you know how much blockchain developers cost um and for the for the uh young founders it's uh kind of uh unreasonable unreasonable and um so we were thinking of creating this kind of platform or ecosystem or you know something that our startups can come on and start building right away without needing to hire developers so this is how it all started but then uh we get a and i'm on our you know cryptics crowd i met uh my future co-founders uh kevin liu

and yuan su uh so they are uh were already working on the idea of you know kind of the platform also so they could aggregate uh the startups and make dows out of them and uh include no code possibility for them to start their business on the blockchain so this is some this is the idea that was floating around and they were working on it so i joined them they asked me to join because our kind of like interest crisscross right so and uh while we were you know thinking and developing of course on the ethereum on layer one and we you know we love ethereum and we allow ethereum ecosystem

and that's how we started and we wanted to be on ethereum from on the first place um but yes of course transaction fees and the uh speed of the transaction is like it was not practical to use so we were thinking about layer twos and we start looking at the layer twos that we could you know uh get on and do the our journey and at that moment we could not find any that would fit our uh metrics of the scalability and the same decentralization so that's why we decided to build our own but the code base we took from the optimism and thank you so much optimism team because that's you know without you so we couldn't like if we started from the

ground zero you know it would take us like way way longer so we took the base code and we uh you know modernized it we adjusted it we made it um more scalable uh with a multi-chain multivm um as well so not all the projects would be on the same chain but you know they they would share many chain and also make it more decentralized having multiple sequencers instead of one and also because we wanted we believed an optimistic roll up and we didn't want to do any side chain you know anything like that because because of the security of the ethereum still a side chain it is uh you know you're compromising your money you're compromising uh to the 51 attack right so it is in the optimistic roll up for

example 51 attack is not like nothing gonna happen with your money so that's uh that's why we chose optimistic roll up and that's why we moved forward and on that so we um have the whole vision of the decentralization because optimistic roll-ups are still pretty much centralized uh and uh but our vision is different and uh decentralization is the key because we wanted to onboard businesses we wanted to businesses to onboard themselves without any you know single party to to vet them or to help them and also so they would be able to do um their business independently and uh also you know without that much

coding and in a simple simple infrastructure in an interface so so this is all our key uh points that we are moving forward we are implementing we're also implementing the you know decentralized storage but at the end at the end of the day so when we launched eight weeks ago because uh we had kind of like projects are flooding to us so and and you see in um in the reports for example that our tvl grows by the day um and uh so it was possible because you know this independent projects launched like for example net swap launched on on top of meetings and you used net swap so you

know what it is um yes we also went um multi-chain so like bridges came to meet this network really fast connecting us to other networks which is really pretty cool i think it's it's pretty cool um and at the same time so the network is already usable so we continue building uh all our vision but at the same time it's already used by uh by projects we have now tons of projects over 100 uh on top of chain and they are not liking just the projects and sitting and doing that they are actual you know projects producing all the good stuff yeah you know for defy communities so you know and they're coming for that

builders fee and we'll touch on that um briefly yes yes yes in a bit however you made a good point with regards to the launch being just um you know about two months ago it'll be a little longer than that when this actually goes live but it's been it's been a crazy growth and like the way that i've seen these ecosystems uh you know grow and start like i've been on the ground floor of you know you know avalanche and phantom when they were just you know babies and then i've seen them blow up and and more and more it's kind of a similar transition with laird suses you know you get some sort of ecosystem fund or development you get a dex right then then you get more dexes right and then you kind of grow into other types of protocols you get a stable swap a

lending protocol you get nfts and all of a sudden things just keep start stacking up on each other and then you have like a your own full-blown ecosystem that is is is uh is native to your chain into into in this case in your roll-up so um it seems like uh the metis ecosystem is kind of at like stage two or so where you guys have your dexes you have um an nft uh marketplace that you can go use and you've got some other type of interesting uh primitives like i think there's that that there's an ohm fork on there now um there's some other uh cool um protocols and products but i'm kind of curious what you see the development uh of these apps coming in like the next

three months like in terms of lending protocols stable swap protocols other primitives um you know what you kind of see coming for for users in the next few months so yes with the lending protocols of course we're looking and we there are a lot of protocols that come in onto our chain um well our optimistic roll up you know without even asking us right so we just one day we find out they're there but some of them we are you know kind of approaching and strategizing so we we had a meeting last week with uh stani um stanny clicho from avi so we would developing a strategy on how it is uh better to

um on board the avi protocol projects on meteos and you know strategize you know um help them uh to create a value proposition the better variability proposition for their users and uh yeah so right now we're working with avi team on that so it's in the plans um we also of course we help it help in the projects that we think are going to you know shine and create a great value for our community so that projects that are coming to our network proportion really closely and then the ones that we think is uh oh they're they're great and they're great for uh the value proposition so we help them with the you know with the marketing with the

financing them so so this this is all exists as well uh so yes the lending protocols projects are coming so the the oracle so right now we have the idia oracle and uh with net oracle also on top of uh meteor so we're working with chain link uh to come on meters as well um yes so right now all the protocols that going to support future you know business so this way we're working on them to come to meet us and of course also developing and helping developing the projects like texas and network for example they are releasing their own launch pad so that is going to be big um uh and yes of course uh we going to help so and yes if

you guys are thinking of you know moving your project to unities uh certainly you can reach out to us we have meetings dot io slash edp so this is the page for our ecosystem development program uh please come apply and our biz dev team will connect to you and we will see how we can help yeah beautiful awesome um and i think it's gonna be super super practical for a lot of uh what's now named og og d5 1.0 to really start to move on to all of these roll-ups because some of them you know like avi and curve were like super stoked to get onto avalanche and stoke to get onto other alternative layer ones but a lot of the

kind of ogs were like we're ethereum focused only and we we respect the ethereum compatibility in the evm but we are basically waiting for rollups um and so i think you guys will likely see a flock of these kind of og d5 protocols that have that kind of brand name and lindy effect more so than kind of these more newer and native um apps on on these alternative chains kind of flock over to uh to you know to you guys into other roll-ups as well so i'm excited for that development um being able to use some of these og protocols that you know i once used in early 2020 and it costed me three four dollars to use them and it was great now they're just a little bit out of hand so

definitely excited to see that um you know grow and develop and i think with with y'all since you guys have that have a token already the incentives are a lot easier to kind of get users there and also to basically convince projects to come work with you so um i would like to get into the builders fund but briefly kind of a question about y'all's competitive advantage with regards to other roll-ups currently and other layer twos because you have a token so talk to us about kind of being the leader in terms of tokenizing uh rollups and what um you know kind of what drove you guys to uh to make that call um and what what advantages you guys have seen so far uh yes the reason behind uh getting the

token and creating the token it's the whole ecosystem development right so with that so with that mechanism it allows us to uh help other projects to finance right so because this token and this token uh i just the disclaimer for the you know initial for our you know development funding and for the team it's like very very small percentage of the tokens that we allocated right so it's kind of four percent and then everything else is it decentralizedly produced and also it's distributed to the community right so and then it allow us to um again to incentivize projects to build a better ecosystem so token will attract projects and then we can build a

better ecosystem we um from the very beginning and this this project was meant to be an ecosystem and we thought strategically that it's going to be you know this way forward for us uh otherwise if we just infrastructure project we just provide infrastructure it's um well i mean it's really it's really hard from the business perspective to you know to move forward of course when we create a new thing everybody jump on it but there will be other great and new things right so and then yes we had to have this competitive advantage and we do have it right now and the projects that are coming on metis and then using the metis tokens also help tremendously as well

and there are more more and more of them are growing but of course the meat is token utility the main utility is to use the um it's used for to pay for the gas fees right so and with that as well what we can do and this this is what we're doing a very cool thing with the project so we offer in this builder mining so for the projects that are coming on to me so we have an application form on meters.adp uh but uh so this is something that we can set up that 30 of the um transaction fee are going to get kicked back to the project so therefore the project get financed from it

right so so that is kind of a huge huge benefit and we didn't even put the end date on it so but we have the decentralization in our roadmap so we imagine in the future it will be handled by it's probably a dao uh you know like all the governance and uh which projects are going to get this builder mining which projects uh so it's going to be regulated more with the dow so right now lots of projects receiving this benefit and start you know with every transaction they actually make money on metis so that's unbeatable yeah and is that so if there's a transaction on on net swap and obviously you guys can tell cut because of the contracts does that gas

feed get split up again um amongst all of the qualified projects on meetus or does that gas feed just go to net swap and then if it just happened on teddy's does that just go to teddy's or does that also go to the qualified projects it's it's attached to the smart contract so if the smart contract makes transactions the smart contract gets the money right so that's uh yes so yes if your smart contract makes transactions and then and probably i don't know if it's uh if i maybe run but it also can run on top of uh net swap use the network smart contract means that net swap also gets the kick back and that project gets kicked back as well okay cool so i can't just go

deploy 10 smart contracts on metis call it a project and then get a bunch of kickback you know what yes if you but if you if you are producing transactions why not right yes yes of course of course yeah like you get your smart contract on if it's producing transactions all the time why not yes yeah that's a really good incentive on top of whatever um grant or emissions um otherwise um that can be allowed so um yeah quite the quite the program and i'm sure i'm sure the net swat team is is loving that um kind of switching gears here to um what what the what the kind of roll up infrastructure and landscape looks like um curious what your thoughts are on

the overall development of optimistic roll-ups um kind of if there's been any breakthroughs recently that that that y'all have seen um i i think i believe optimism tweeted out the other day that they saw a 30 increase in speeds or something so perhaps you have some insight onto some of the recent breakthroughs with optimistic roll-ups uh yes so well the development is going right so the fees will be lower speed will be higher so that's and then you see every day so yes yesterday optimism team twitter i loved it i retweeted it yes so the the fees are lower the speed is higher uh and yes it's it's it's a way to go so something that we are developing in that

regard uh we are developing a decentralized storage uh which allows us to roll in more transactions so hundreds of thousands of transactions can be rolled up in one batch and therefore the fees will so we estimate the fields can go up to you know two cents so so this as low as they can go um and yeah right now it's couple of dollars right so it's optimism it's uh you know even like a dollar and something uh on on on optimism network yeah so it's it's uh has the potential to go towards a sense and um in this case you know optimistic roll-ups uh going to be kind of like faster more secure than for example side chains right so there's no and and

that's where the the way that we go in and also with the decentralized storage that we're developing we uh we want to make it available for people to store their data on chain because right now you know that any you know nfts anything they they all stored off chain like all these images they are not on the blockchain actually right so they are stored as a hashes but the the real picture is of course somewhere else on somebody else's server which is kind of not cool uh because we're claiming that you know there's a unique sense so and so forth so with the decentralized storage developed and uh to be able to store data on chain so it become native uh pictures that are native nfts that are stored on top of chain and cannot be

changed yeah so this is something cool that's uh that we we are developing and again um roll-ups is the technology constantly changing and we also all you know we're sharing the code between each each other right so so this is not as much like this is not a competition you know i i i don't believe in competition uh so yes i believe in like in a very you know open way and this is the way to move the whole industry forward because at the end of the day we're going towards the common goal uh to you know well at least michael my goal that i find common with with the others to um have uh blockchain

implemented for the whole world for you know for the enterprise companies how we call them web 2 they don't know that we they we call them web 2 by the way because we're now talking to them companies none of them knew that there was [Laughter] yes but yeah it's a common goal this is common goal like mass adoption is our common goal yes and but um the uh you know the the the like you know if arbitram launches a token because because media's already launched a token because they want to see more development in their ecosystem it's almost like like we play a game of catch up here with with protocols and builders and trying to to to grow and almost beat one each one another in terms of kpis and metrics but it's all

really towards the common goal and i think keeping that ethereum ecosystem ethos in mind which i've honestly and i hate to admit i've kind of gotten away from the ethereum decentralization mindset as these yields and faster change have popped up so thank goodness that uh that y'all shane has come around and been great because the finality on on on meetus is insane let's get into that how so out of like i've probably done 10 chains up to this point every alternative layer one you can think of i'm on all the roll-ups um and nothing even comes close to how quick the metis uh transactions go through and how quickly you can basically do things on chain in seconds so talk to us about kind of your finality and

how why it's so good uh yes we have a great science team and a great development team as well so our ctu uh he came he's a kind of like a genius uh so he started programming at age six right so he was the one that initially developed this you know the hyper ledger for ibm so that's uh that's the you know the caliber of the person that you are we're talking about so and uh yes and we also have team of the scientists of course because it's all you know it's all math um inside of it so how it all works how it all rolls up and uh it's um also it's all research and development

so there's nothing we're like on a very very like breakthrough technology so nobody before us developed it right so even though we took you know optimism code and we adjusted this like all the underlying things that you know that infrastructure that we're producing it's all really really like bleeding age new and uh yes our end game of course we uh and again it's not competition but uh so we aim to produce the quality of the network you know of the security of the transaction speed of the transaction cost that is going to be usable for the vape to world so this is our and like kind of

like end goal so for the web 2 world for enterprise world that's how they like us to call them uh for the enterprise world and right right now in the talks about them because before we get to that level you know fast speed cheap transactions you cannot even talk about that with them because you know it's um yes they will not take us seriously yeah yeah of course like come on ethereum right now and they're like all right guys this guy's got some work to do here yes yeah yesterday we had uh meeting with one of the gaming companies right so and then of course like for them uh you you know if you're showing them you know decentral land it's cool like for me it's really really cool but for them

it's like oh it's lagging oh yeah right so it's like so it's kind of different perspective we know the underlying technology is really cool it's all decentralized you know there's no this big gaming company behind it but uh for them it's like they looking from the other perspective yeah so we need to get onto that level and that's where we are going and again this is not a competition for us it's for us it's just the way to you know to develop this uh very usable technology so then the others who not familiar with blockchain can use it yeah yeah and i agree and as these games and as these applications grow um you know you start to get some growing pains in terms of users and

transactions per second and um you know the chain getting clogged we've seen a lot of these on the alternative layer ones which have uh more of it of a monolithic blockchain kind of setup where um all of the all of the data availability and and execution and settlement all happen on one chain so when you get you know as avalanche and phantom for example two of my probably best um you know alternative layer one comparisons have grown we've started to see two things happen which is first fees have gotten slightly more expensive even though avalanche fans have both implemented their own programs to kind of bring them down and

so in terms of the amount of gas you have to put a transaction through like i remember on avalanche it was in the it was in the tens or less than nine or eight way now it's consistently above like 30 and phantom was in like the hundreds or 200 gray now it's at like 800 or 900 way um and things i mean things are still running quite smooth but ultimately the the monolithic kind of structure slows down the overall throughput and user growth that can happen over time however my understanding of rollups which please correct me if i'm wrong is that over time as more people come on and more transactions happen it actually becomes faster and cheaper so i know that that applies to zk robes is that the case with optimistic roll-ups as well and kind of explain how that kind of

works please uh yes optimistic roll-ups more transaction you're able to roll in into the batch it's cheaper it is so it's but there's also this uh discussion of the scalability on how they this transaction is getting processed because more transactions gonna come they all gonna wait in one line right so and then uh also we saw some of the optimistic roll-ups go down right so sometimes like even for a day because they get overloaded so that's why this uh you know thinking through and then building into it for infrastructure to scale it like for example we reached it with the multi-chain multivm so the chain created on demand as the you know as the load increases so so that that kind of stuff

is needs to be kind of like built in and thought through right so from the from the very beginning what i found because i also came from the you know enterprise world and i worked in software development my whole life before that and uh but i see that uh uh projects that are right now in the in a space they uh probably they very genius but they are pretty young in terms of the enterprise uh you know mindset so yeah it's like once they they probably don't think it through from the very beginning right so and it's it's hard right so they they jump and i know this space is quick and you have to do it right away otherwise you know what a bear market comes um

yes and um uh yeah so so this this kind of things that uh in in the future it's like yes what happens if you have hundreds of millions transactions in a second right so yes like what it like will your network stand then and like all this needs to be you know calculated tested thought through architected from the from the very beginning and this is this is the challenge um with also with the layer ones there are lots of now that is you know i'm i'm a multi-chain person right so i love ethereum i love ethereum ecosystem i love ethereum because of its decentralized nature so that's that's what i value that's what i value the

most i think the blockchain itself its value in a decentralization if you start sacrifice sacrificing decentralization for the speed and the cost well you might as well use the database right so like what's bad about sql server you can you can put all this application to the sql server because it's the same thing right and it's faster and it's cheaper right so and if you are it's in the blockchain it has to make sense to run into the blockchain because blockchain means decentralization if the blockchain is not decentralized to me it doesn't make sense i can still use it and people ask you know their project they put in projects on it they are um but they always have to keep them in mind and i always keep it in mind like what happens

if this chain get compromised what have whose key holders to the all the funds you know all the private keys of this chain who is controlling it one day maybe they will be held at the gun point and this is you know our money just comes to that stupid reason right so this yes this decentralization you cannot beat it right so you cannot destroy it like when you see russia proposes ban and use the bitcoin well who cares because they cannot propose any ban because this is a decentralized system they have no control over it what if you know they would have control if the bitcoin was centralized they could go to satoshi nakamoto and say you know what we're going to kill you am i allowed to say it on the forecast

and then yeah so that would work right so there would be no more bitcoin yes so uh yes so for me uh again decentralization but together with thinking through the whole architecture uh thinking through what it's going to be when it's going to be like millions of the transactions in so that's the main main main point and that's what we are also you know thinking it through yeah yeah and i mean that ethos is strong and again like i said even for me and many others have kind of lost that over the last six months in the hunt for better yields and and kind of the profit mentality which i think has been a really good cool experiment um but as as you've explained with the longer term

thought process with regards to the technology of of roll ups and how kind of it basically gets better as it grows um it's frankly unbeatable i think there will always be a position for um these smaller node count layer ones to grow then they will all probably have their own niche markets um but yeah i think that i think we'll really see the ethereum community rally around the idea of rollups because i think it's something that uh we can onboard um you know like you're saying 10 10 million transactions a second onto across a few rollups and it it could actually hang and so you know that's something that that we're really excited about to see um and and kind of grow that development

because frankly on metis right now um the transaction fees are certainly not the cheapest of other alternative solutions um but the finality you can see is just insane and there's never a lag and so i can only imagine what we can get when we have you know a hundred thousand users on metis and we're pushing you know just fees under 50 cents or under 10 cents with that sort of user experience it would really make you wonder why you would be why you would have your funds anywhere else that that doesn't have the security and decentralization of ethereum combined with the speeds um as you're as you're saying so super exciting to to see that play out um you know and uh yeah just just stoked to kind of see the

growth overall of of rollups now let's kind of switch over to what um arbitrom is doing uh i'm curious your thoughts on um on their development so far again it's not competition so we appreciate positive word um and i'm curious what you kind of think um with regards to uh other other layer twos out there as well um you know we can go into bridges or infrastructure um and eventually layer two to layer two kind of uh uh you know kind of talking to each other is a future that i see so um anything like that with regards to arbitrary or um you know kind of layer two communication well i have it from this you see from the uh probably

the tvl we have certain kpis to just to measure like at least we could we don't call it success but at least and measure our progress right so uh arbitrary is right now is probably the you know the champion in the tvl so they were able to uh build the you know ecosystem and uh uh uh unload the projects that are you know created that's you know huge tvl which is you know i i i love them i love our all you know their shoes uh because they all we all again we're all gonna go to the common goal and we're all gonna uh go into the common goal and i am going to eat denver uh and i know that

they are uh they will be handling the transactions for the food right so all the food transactions going to be handled on arbitrage okay so this is the last thing i heard maybe it's a some uh and i would like to see how it actually practically works right so and i know that in denver uh i'm i'm on the board uh the sport dial and there is a a little bit um maybe worries like how people going to you know handle what if it doesn't work with the transaction that doesn't go through and yeah so they ask our return to put you know the help desk here and there's like people that will be helping

uh people so yes uh so this is what i heard and this is with the last thing that i know that our arbitrage will be handling all these transactions and we'll be putting uh people like help desk people uh and uh what is not perfect in this process actually it's actually i think it's really cool that we're doing that that it's like transactions that people are going to see like how it works on layer 2 what is not probably perfect than that you know the help desk decentralization should not be any help desk so i i yet to see how it happened maybe there will be no issues and no help desk needed so and the second uh the transaction fees and as you say the transaction fees like on optimistic

co-ops is not right now not as low as we wish them to be so this fees had to be covered so arbitrary actually had to cover this fees out of the pocket right so then that's uh it's a huge um huge in blockchain space no it's huge it's like an expense though you know it's like oh yeah but you know i heard from the kind of like or from the board people from the ones that on the denver they say well it just doesn't make sense to pay that much money for the transaction fees like why why why do we do it why don't we just use visa so that's that's kind of like you know the um uh you see that it's like it's really cool for us but it's not usable to that side world just yet but you know they're the champions right now they're doing like

really cool stuff and i i would like to see them yet then where everything goes smoothly and uh yeah i would like to watch it and i'm going to use our bedroom as well then um yes uh but again our common goal we're going to make it cheaper faster and of course uh more usable and um yeah we're all gonna get there at the end if we didn't get there it's not the end yet yeah i mean it's kind of like the uh the issue of like it gets cheaper and more usable for something like like the visa network or a lot of users but like if they would all just come then it would be cheaper and pretty much ready to use but like the problem is they're

not here yet because it's not cheap so it's like you guys got to come and you'll make it cheaper and until you come and bring all your friends then it's not going to be cheaper so yeah so it's an interesting dilemma but it's a good one to have knowing that the tech um you know is getting there and it's been interesting to see how quickly um you know certain sectors of the market just blew up and that the infrastructure was like not really really truly ready yet like open c handling all these nfts like wow the whole world just found out that ethereum was expensive as hell and that openc you know goes down and is buggy and is a a web to ask company right and

so like you know we've there's certain parts of the market where we're seeing growth be unparalleled and like now we're seeing the the ideas of nfts of layer twos of layer ones being validated but so which is good for builders but now they're on catch-up mode just trying to you know maintain the growth so it's been good for the validation of the ecosystem but now you know we're playing like okay like let's you know catch up to what the people want well yeah and you can see it from the leaders of the projects how busy they are right so because like we're in such a tremendous growth that it's for example with alex satellin an open c i would have meetings you know every week before that when he was explaining me how the openc works and

this and that but now you know i sent him an email he said like helena i don't have intent to respond on the email right so so that that's uh and then i see like all the founders right says danny and uh like they all get really really really really busy because of course you know um we probably were not uh ready and prepared for the such a you know big growth of all this companies and it's going to be only getting worse so that's right for for the leaders it's we need to think through the whole scalability of the team of the system of that that would we would not be overloaded that would our people are not overloaded so it's not that another task that we're doing behind the scenes is not only the

technology that we're building it's also the kind of support team of these technologies as well and i've seen in the past criticism for some of the early stage founders who have um you know it's an assumption have have done very well for themselves off their token off their protocols and being early to the ecosystem now being lazy and being criticized for not working and building but you know kind of my take on this is um you know no matter how wealthy or um how long you've been in the space like once you get to a certain point it's like it's very much so less you know what can crypto do for me and like what

can i do for crypto and what can i do for d5 um you know and i think a lot of builders are kind of faced with this at a certain time um you know and i think based off what you're saying it's fair to and uh to uh assume that a lot of builders are in it for much more than just uh you know the amount of tokens which is just the number on a screen it's it's really like what can i do to build this long term and validate you know my career almost because it really becomes an identity thing at a certain point right it's like okay surely i've got these tokens and i've got all these friends online we're doing well but if this all goes this all goes to hell then then well what am i going to do with my

life right so it becomes like an identity thing an emotional attachment more so than than the than the amount of numbers on the screen that you can run up and and i think that's the that's kind of the the push that a lot of builders um have to really want to keep keep growing and you know i'm curious kind of any development that you've had throughout your uh your career so far as a builder in web 3 kind of you know any mindset shifts or you know realizations or things that that have had kept you on track and you know kept you to wanting to keep you know creating and and building out this ecosystem uh yes so it's a very good question indeed uh because yeah all the founders that you see right now

that are still working in the space they're not in there for money otherwise they would not be here anymore because they all right now wealthy and rich right so then they would quit but the fact that they're still there that this their projects are still running and i just yes i know you know a little bit of this inside information uh for the founders life yes their life is becoming harder and harder and harder because it's a lot of pressure it's also a lot of responsibility you're not always responsible for your protocol but you spawn you're responsible for your team that you build right so that look up to you right and then some like for some founders as you know hundreds of people that are you know believing in them and uh yes it's it becomes kind of like a

life uh becomes a life right so and this is like it's not about money it's people that are getting into it and not getting it because of money otherwise they would not make money people who are in there for money they actually you know lose money at the end so that's uh that that is a rule and uh yes the life of the founders are uh not easy because they also right now under the scrutiny of the public right and all this you know opinions that you can you know here on twitter and twitter uh people are not forgiven twitter is a mad house it is an absolute mad house right so and then yes for some of course

like we as as a founder so we needed to develop kind of like a thick skin and see through you know some you know comments like comments that you're reading especially the negative one at the end of the day it's people that are unhappy right so they're just expressing how unhappy they are they just need some love and that's yes uh so it's nothing to do you know with the founder that they attacking right so and then yes we can see that and we can see like when and i can feel for those people as well right and then i help as many as i can but the yes the founder's life is uh not easy in that way and it's not about money and none of the money can buy this kind of

uh like the the the way that we you know have our worlds build the the team built the like everything around us like none of the money could buy it and none of the money actually worth it as well right so it's much much much much much bigger than that yeah and the responsibility elena is just gotta be massive like um you know i i envision myself in in my career so far has been just to learn as much as i can to soak up um just as much information connections and grow and all this and i you know i eventually want to launch a protocol probably in so in the ethereum scaling space in the next few

years on roll-ups just something that can be huge and i've just talked to so many people and and a lot of them have honestly said like yeah just just hang out in the community man it's it's a lot more fun and a lot less stressed and i mean the responsibility of other people's financial well-being when it comes to them owning a token which uh your team is building is i mean it can definitely be stressful um and you know we we obviously applaud all all builders uh especially you being a woman builder in crypto which i'd love to to kind of touch on uh how you feel about the growth of women in crypto and kind of what what the meatest vision is to onboard more women into crypto oh thank you for that question

yes uh so yeah i usually don't want to kind of like divide men and women we're all doing the same but yes of course there's certain flavor to the women in that space and women are different from men men are different from women i um from my experience it's really good to have the balance team so when you when you have your men and women like 50 50 something like that i you know i love her and women we're hiring lots and lots and lots of women uh they're great they're awesome because men always represent you know strength and the ego and you know going forward and women is more like you know

love you know and they um well of course they're also like you know really really knowledgeable but uh at the same time there's like you know love and warmth like completely different dynamics right and when you balance this dynamics in the team it's it's become a great thing so what uh i do with my team as well of course i tell them how much i love them every day and that's it's uh it goes a long way and it's all true i love them very much i cannot like if you think that's you know one person or like even you know our genius yuan our genius kevin could build a or myself we could build all that while you're wrong because this is our team that's doing that what we do we

just uh infect them with the idea so that's that's that's what we do and again like if you're thinking about going uh and you know founding your own project doing your own protocol uh yeah so this is a big responsibility there will be no going back right so once you're there you cannot back off and say like oh you know guys i tried that it didn't work well because it's probably not gonna be a good experience it's on the chain forever it's there forever it's not going anywhere whatever on the chain is on the chain um yes uh but in terms of in terms of the you know women like if you when you found your project when they found your protocol consider having you know women

in your founding team because it that's that's going to help there's going to you know contrabalance a little bit of the egos and the powers that guys have because we see in in the projects that they when they found it initially uh some of them actually split up the founders split up teams break out because uh yeah if you have this you know testosterone dynamics all the time i think it's like at some point at some point there's some breaking point to it and women are going to you know make it better yeah and and i think we've seen that development with women nfts or nft projects based around women have been blowing up recently i know world of women uh that nfc collection has gone from like one eighth floor to like

almost nine or something i think it's just going to keep going in terms of price but yeah it's just an overall growth metric and i think a lot of the reason male dominated is because while males are are you know gamblers and risk takers almost and women kind of catch on a little bit a little bit after you know men do in terms of those qualities which as you're saying it's quite the balance uh when they come together i mean that's what that's what kind of the whole world of nature is all about now don't take my relationship advice i'm 22 but at the end of the day yeah the balance is the balance and um you know we love to see that growth here um and it's awesome to be a woman builder and and you know and be here in crypto so uh

thank you for that and uh as we kind of wrap up here we just have a question that we ask a lot of our guests i'd like to ask you which is if you had to elevate or pitch uh one person in the entire world on meetings uh who would it be and why oh let's see hmm i don't even know okay uh so for some reason jeff business came to mind so maybe him uh and the second one i think i think microsoft came to mind as well so that's uh and yeah and i think i don't need to pitch

it to elon musk because he's pretty knowledgeable that would be going big right there jeff bezos and elon musk at the same time that would be that would be quite the pitch yeah you better have that tech ready before you get in that room or else you're not going to come out happily you know tech is never ready tech is always working progress right you know elevator peach i would do it without even the tech ready because yeah once the tech will be ready when they will be ready our attack will be ready awesome well hey thank you so much olander for coming on it was an absolute pleasure and i know our audience got a lot out of this and uh props to to the building looking forward to see what's coming in uh layer two summer is the narrative so excited for that

thank you angie cheers