DeFi By Design EP#6: The Future of Derivatives Trading

Transcript

welcome to d5 by design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate empower and enrich what's up guys just want to take a quick break and tell you about our sponsors for defy slate so first we have acropolis acropolis is an all-in-one defy yield farming platform they actually offer dollar cost averaging into bitcoin and ethereum uncollateralized loans and their mainnet just launched it's called delphi and they actually just filled it up to a cap and they have governance launching soon check out acropolis.io for more and then we have mcdex mcdex is the first decentralized perpetual swap exchange they offer up to 10x on ethereum

perpetual swaps and 5x on link as well as lend and snx completely decentralized trading on mcdex you can check them out on mctext.io both these platforms are extremely active in the d5 space and their protocols are growing and the users are as well so check those out and we'll get right back to the podcast now welcome to d5 by design episode six today we're with andre from the opium team really excited for this one they've been working on some really cool stuff some partnerships with ave a bunch of derivatives trading and exchanges really interesting stuff things have been heating up recently in d5 and we are here to break it all down for you guys and keep you guys on track how you doing

today rob chillin andrew yeah i'm really excited to be here too uh andre has actually enlightened in my mind all of this new possibilities for d5 in the form of derivatives so i'm excited to hear uh everything that's going on at opium and kind of across the board how derivatives can contribute to d5 and just keep this train pushing yeah for sure hello guys yes uh thanks thanks for nice intro and indeed it's a lot of possibilities a lot of challenges opportunities and excitement about derivatives but i'm coming from the real financial system or should i shouldn't they call it real centralized big financial system and i was already excited for about 10 years i'm happy to

share it with you yeah awesome awesome so just so everybody understands what opium is and kind of what you guys are trying to do here in the d5 space would you mind just a quick little rundown for those who aren't aware of opium or who don't really understand how the derivatives work yep sure so the opium is the protocol but the opium was also exchanged on top of the protocol and to be short it's a protocol which allows to build you any derivative in a decentralized absolutely non-custodial trustless way and what is derivative derivative is instrument to share risk to take risk to sell the risk to trade the risk and this is very generic definition what it means because people uh don't necessarily think about derivatives on a

daily basis but everybody is where everybody in the world have exposure and derivatives if you have a bank account if you have mortgage if you have a pension it's all hedged by the derivatives and they are really uh needed by the financial system but also nowadays much easier to trade derivatives and uh even retail clients even the normal people not necessarily in financial world and just want to have certain exposure they can easily trade derivatives nowadays and with decentralized duties it's even easier it's more democratic and it's has endless possibilities because it's also breaking all kinds of barriers right right so we're effectively taking a concept that has been made and

has made its mark in the traditional world as here to stay in as in most economic markets and trying to basically bring it on chain in a decentralized fashion so what does that kind of look like for you guys as a process in navigating that decentralized landscape what are some of the things that you guys have done you know and and through this navigation as i like to see it as a little wild wild west kind of idea you know through this journey that you guys have started to embark on you know what have you guys pushed forward you know with these decentralized derivatives yes we started a long time ago basically i was trading derivatives for more than 10 years and i was managing very big funds and we started three years ago the opium team and the first idea was okay derivative market

is huge is not super efficient in a traditional finance and we can change it we can bring a lot of innovation there so and we built opium not for the defy because now everybody uh are talking about defy but we built opium before defy and we build it as a solution for the financial system for the global economy basically and we started to build it we have seen uh no oracles not no good oracles back there no stable coins or maybe few very at the very beginning and now we have defy which is absolutely amazing now we have a lot of interest from banks and goldman sachs just announced that it's priority number one for them they put a new head of the digital strategy and so on so on

so that's indeed a lot of excitement and when we started we just started to build a first option for the ethereum versus us dollar or any stablecoin and once we started to build it uh we built it and it was cool we decided that we want also to have futures because it's very similar we have futures once we built that uh we wanted a cds and some more sexy products we understood that we are doing basically the same job again and again and that's the moment where we decided to make an a protocol and the protocol is universal ecosystem that you can basically teach what is the option what is the future what is the cds and it will directly work with it in in a

very consistent professional ecosystem so that's what we built and at some point on the way we seen the defy and we've seen that it's a lot of use cases a lot of application there in d5 of our derivatives and we started to be present in defy at the same time we have a lot of interest right now from the corporates and yeah but basically i can tell about all of these you just guide me what should i talk about otherwise i'm going to be maybe boring and talking a lot about the protocol and that type of things but in general it's really amazing how everything is developing around andre that's cool and i think we do want to hear a lot about the protocol but um you know i i'd also like to hear about kind of what led you to the protocol so what

what was your thought process on you know i'm sure you were in a really you know safe job and it was really consistent in the legacy markets what drove you to make that transition and build this out in a decentralized way for the d5 ecosystem yep that's that's a cool story i was indeed in uh probably one of the best jobs which i could imagine i was managing more than 20 billions usd and all kind of fixed income funds and that's a really cool job uh you're managing kind of hedge fund it's really a smart job so you have a lot of small smart strategies smart people around it's it's based like very well it's probably the one of

the best paid jobs in the market and uh everything was cool but it was a little bit boring to see this huge and uh not very efficient financial sector and you know you work every day with it and you see a lot of inefficiencies and you you see a lot of things which can be done better and it's huge at the same time so it's a serious thing and we started with together with my friends we started to look at some fintech innovation we were looking for the companies and trying to help them invest in them or be involved one way or another and of course we heard about bitcoin and at some point my friend and now he's my co-founder basically he came to me and said hey this is the white paper actually it was

yellow paper of the ethereum we should invest there because this is really cool this is like a future and i was resisting for some time because i didn't understand it well and then i read more and more and the more i read the more i liked it so we did investment in ethereum and since then we stay with the protocol we develop on top of it we did a lot of experiments and we also stayed within the community and i think the community of the ethereum is amazing so there are a lot of blockchains but the community which historically uh around ethereum is really cool one and that's all basically drove me from being looking at it as a hobby into the real time job now uh three years ago i resigned

from my normal job and we started opium team so we started opium team as i said without an idea that we we're gonna be in d5 we just started to bring an innovation to the market which i was part of for 10 years and since then i never regret that i quit my job i have a lot of fun a lot of intellectual challenge and it is just amazing yeah and and building in such a nation space that is you know the decentralized finance world it's something new every week every day every month so it really keeps you on your toes and i just read the blog post that you wrote about the cds with ave which was absolutely amazing just overall as a concept now i'm wondering how like within the team how do you guys prioritize which

products and services you guys want to roll out like is there a system um that you know you and the team collaborate on and then like how do you manage if you are in disagreement or you have a different idea of what you would like to do next with the team kind of how do you guys manage that and how do you guys prioritize you know the rollout of your financial products and services within uh opium i'm gonna be very honest with you uh it's an art it's not a science and i think that's also the strength you said it's changing every week every month every day it's true it's changing every hour the device space it's very hot at the moment and waking up in the morning and you don't know what's going on and maybe there is something new

it keeps you sharp but that's also a reason why big companies cannot compete at the moment so the whole space is full of startups even there is a billion of dollars there are still startups because they are able to steer fast startup is like a speedboat it's not a big titanic that is huge but it's uh not very fast uh to steer but it's like a speedboat and you need to react fast you need to react faster you need to steer fast you need to be sharp so and that's what we do and you cannot make an algorithm you cannot make the rule okay how we're going to build the best products and most interesting products it's just going speaking to people stay on top of what's going on uh you see a lot of opportunities and uh

you want to execute them fast and we're able to list youtube cycles in one hour within two hours we can build most of derivatives you can imagine and that's kind of advantage we're using we're trying and if it does work uh it's really cool and we're happy we have a lot of feedback if it doesn't work for some reason maybe people don't need it maybe it's too complex maybe we were wrong i would just try a new one and yeah thanks for the compliments about the cds for our i think that's a that's a great example they uh introduce a unculturized lending which potentially has tail risk so potentially you have a credit risk which of not paying back and we solve this with cds and uh it's actually funny that we have a lot of feedback my telegram and twitter was overloaded with feedback

and some people were saying this is like creation of the new financial crisis because a lot of people they uh mess up cds with cdos and cdos was characterized uh dev obligation something like this uh that was the real reason of the financial crisis in 2007 2009 and cds is basically another way around cds is a way to protect yourself from the crisis and that that was that was really amazing how uh community react and uh they realize it and it's amazing i've just started it has a little future because people now starting to think about the risk as well and they want to be hatched and they don't want to run big risk of losing everything so that that's a really good example i like it a lot and it's important like you said to stay

flexible when the market is changing both you know from the listing perspective and the you mentioned the features uh you can list very quickly but then it's almost like an experiment some of them work out some of them don't and then also on the customer side you know everything is so new that sometimes customers need to experiment with what's out there because they almost don't even know what they're looking for yet could you speak a little bit to opium and how it stands right now products that you know you have listed and then the road map um you know that you see coming out and maybe future products uh but of course you know we'll keep in mind that

opium in particular is a speed boat so [Music] have the biggest road map but uh you have to stay flexible is there anything kind of in the near future that you have your eyes set on oh yeah so i i don't want to spoil i can tell that we have a list of the products to try to introduce and okay let me make a spoiler it's going to be something uh connected to elon musk and his activities and people love it and people would like would like to have uh duty for this i'm gonna stop now but uh we will building something cool something really cool and we'll try it it's easy to try and i think it will be uh really loved by the community but the roadmap in general

is several directions so one direction is trying to build cool products uh sexy products and products which are needed at the right time at the right place so when we see cd until it tries landing we think about cds when we see people speculate about the future token price we introduce a pre-market so you can trade the future for token which doesn't exist yet so and you can already trade these expectations because people have different views so we see also a lot of interest for the interest rate swaps basically interest rate swap is an instrument which easily allows you to fix your rate so on the deposit on the borrowing with most of the protocols you are exposed to the floating rate or you can fix it with

interest rate swaps and exchange it into the into the fixed one and then you have certainty so stuff like this is uh one direction but also imagine that all decentralized liquidity can be aggregate not aggregated but brought to the uh defy to the decentralized exchanges so everything is traded on exchanges like dairy bit bit max or even everything traded on bloomberg can be traded in a decentralized way and we are making the way easy way for people to transfer this liquidity and get paid for it and this is really cool because it's going to be immutable so imagine i can install a hummingbit which create orders in a defy and every time the order is picked up i can hedge myself on a centralized exchange i'm kind of the

not a hedge fund not an arbitrager but kind of liquidity provider and i can earn five percent 10 i don't know depends on the competition but i can earn it some interest just by bringing liquidity from centralized exchanges even like bloomberg into the decentralized space and in decentralized space it's really cool because a lot of people they cannot trade derivatives on centralized exchanges because of all kind of restrictions but it's also sometimes a very high barrier to enter into the market and this is completely can be destroyed by the decentralization once this trick of transferring liquidity is done by more than me if it's done by 100 people or by thousand people then it's really immutable it's really democratic and it's really like robust it's like a blockchain

so transfer of liquidity between markets between traditional finance and defy can be done in the same uh philosophy in the same logic like the whole blockchain and this is really amazing so that's another direction to work at and we we keep the third one we keep our eyes open and we're looking for the real needs of the corporates of the companies and sometimes there's some stuff we see there an example is an olive oil future one one company actually a set of the companies in spain they building olive oil future on top of opium just because they need to hatch their trading risk they trade a lot of oil olive oil and they don't have instruments to hate themselves and if they go to traditional banking they're going to be charged i don't know how much but close to a million

and it's going to be a lot of legal fees just for starting and they're going to write probably two 300 pages of legal disclaimers and everything but it's not needed anymore so now if you have iphone you can already trade all kind of derivatives you can make deposits you can use decentralized products of defy and so on so on so it's a little bit old-school to pay one million dollars for just starting a product yeah yeah for sure and one of the biggest kind of breaks that we've seen in the d5 space over the past like just few weeks and months has been that news about ave and their ability to soon be able to on ramp actual fiat into the d5 space but i've been wondering and this kind of ties into what you're saying about like the kind of mesh here with the c5 and d5

because if we're being honest like having a completely unregulated non-kyc permissionless protocol that's just simply not going to fly with the regulators of our world in the financial sector due to risks due to greed there's so many things and so like this idea of being able to use these protocols like opium et cetera et cetera in this completely decentralized manner you know it's great currently but i i fear about the future you know whether or not the regulations could cause harm you know whether or not they'll be completely shut down there'd be a lot of legal problems so are you prepared for this or have you thought about this kind of like what's your take on that like we could be experiencing you know where the sec

or the finra or the eu and all these global forces come and try to you know crack down on basically what's been going on in d5 now are you prepared have you thought about this kind of what do you and the team feel is the ideal either solution or situation to this because i almost feel like it's not a matter of when but a matter of if you know the regulations and whatnot start to come uh i think i think it's a matter of when so uh it's not necessarily bad you know we try to think of the regulation of as of something bad but actually if you think why there is a cliche that regulation is bad and you will answer that because of currently the financial system is heavily overregulated so what was happening last

hundreds of years that it was a lot of holes in financial system a lot of possibilities to let's say hack it or to do some illegal or identical things and for the every case they were creating a rule so that's how regulation works so i like the airplane you know every every crash of the plane will create a lot of new regulations and maybe in the airplane in our aircraft industry is good maybe i don't know i have no no idea about that industry but in the financial system is definitely slowing you down making you less efficient and making you more bureaucratic and uh that's why we have a perception of regulation of something not really good or even like very very

bad thing depend to whom you're gonna speak to but if you think of the regulation a different way like if we have open finance and we have only few regulation mechanisms which allow all of us to benefit from it it makes a lot of sense and i think the regulation is needed and i defy but not the regulation we see in the traditional finance it should be starting with like regulation that does make sense that we all benefit from it so and that saves us from the tail risks and the systemic kind of faults and this is absolutely in this case is absolutely a good thing because everybody will benefit so if you if you don't allow for the scam if you don't allow stealing money from users one way or

another it's maybe not a bad thing you know it's a good idea and i think it will come naturally because the community will realize it much more and uh a lot of people already speaking about self-regulation or making a rating system or reputation that that's all kind of regulation so when i have a rating system or whatever reputation system it's already at the start of the regulation because you make it more transparent for the end users and they're benefiting it and it's more fair so the financial system or the regulator the governments i think they also understand it and they understand if they're going to ban it as you said there's a possibility maybe they want to ban it or they want to stop it and they want to fight against it but they realize if they do this then they're going to only postpone it or make it even

worse even when it's not legal it's gonna exist anyway but it's gonna be like pretty bad another way if they regulate and introduce a couple of regulations which does make sense everybody gonna benefit also governments and they already understood that i think the point was uh two three years ago when they were trying to prohibit everything and bitcoin is illegal or legal and it was a lot of talks and a lot of attempts to make bitcoin illegal but nowadays uh i don't know i live in the netherlands and again they treat my bitcoin like my asset and there is very very normal very plain i can do anything what i can do with my assets as well so i think regulation is good but it should be like normal reasonable ablation yeah and and i think it's a bit of a case of not necessarily there being a

competition or you know a bad or a good but more so a use case also for the traditional markets and the legacy users right so in a sense what the regulation will do is it will make you know say opium ave all these other protocols more able to support more money and more usage of their platforms because of what they are generating right in terms of the yield in terms of the opportunities right so it's like this idea of like they're just going to slowly come to us almost and i think that's kind of what you're getting at yeah yeah and we're going to go towards them also naturally because we will understand that wild west is not an option so too many people die in wild west and you want to have a agreement uh social agreement

and from this social agreement uh everybody will benefit big time so we will go towards them as well and andre kind of getting back to the protocol here um you know we might see the regulation landscape change like like you're saying from uh more of like the accredited investor landscape into uh something that might revolve more around smart contracts so how does i i guess this is kind of a two-part question how does that impact the listings that you have on opium and then kind of how how do you go about that listing process um you mentioned you know olive oil futures is opium kind of the place where

everyone can list their own particular derivative of choice or does opium kind of decide which derivatives it's going to have on the market a very good question because we need to make it more clear opium is open open source open audited protocol which everybody can use in order to use opium you just need to be able to program some lines of code in the solidity and you can access it with apis if you install the ethereum node you can build anything with it this is open protocol and we build it like this and we also build opium exchange and the opium exchange is a front end which gives you the universal access to all the derivatives there and it's like a bloomberg if you compare

it to the traditional financial system for the opium protocol uh we cannot restrict anything because it's that doesn't belong to us but this is kind of open up open source on the blockchain but for the opium exchange we want to limit number but quality of products that are listed there because we are in control of the front end and we have very simple criteria which called basic security check so simply speaking we don't want scam there we don't want products which are not credible if it does make sense you can just fill in the form and we will invest in the relationship or we will invest our time and resources to help you to do it very fast so and we don't care if it's a future for

uh ferrari or is it a future for uh financial markets it should make sense and it shouldn't be a scam or at least basic security should be passed then you can have it there that's really cool and i've kind of been looking into how all this d5 stuff got started and how does opium differ from another protocol like maker or like uma where it sounds like it's a similar process you're kind of minting these derivative products and then offering them to the market kind of what are the differentiators in opium that uh uma maker synthetics they don't really have but opium does you want me to promote opium now for sure

sure i can better to say well uh we don't know what is the best so we have differently definitely we have different assumptions uma protocol for example which is probably the closest one synthetics is already a bit far away what we believe in opium we believe that the blockchain layer is the settlement layer we don't believe in automatic market makers we don't believe in on chain order books we don't believe in on-chain risk management and we made ethereum blockchain layer one we made as a settlement layer and it's like really primitive blocks are being settled on the blockchain and everything else i mentioned a risk management which is very important by the way

people tend to forget about it market making order books we put on the layer 2. it's currently on the meta transactions and it's kind of like a zerix type of relays which take care of the meta transactions but this is philosophically it is different and i think it stands out in this sense from from everything else i don't know if it's right or wrong market can decide and time will show but that's also how the real financial system works so basically you have a lot of actors a lot of stakeholders and a lot of participants who create together a financial market and it can be automatic market makers it can be the same 100 the same market makers as uni swap it can be different market makers it can be also market makers who take a risk and they actually those market makers

they normally make much more money so also taking account the risk for the reasons they take they they make a lot of money and so on so what hedge funds exchanges is we believe it's a different layer and this is a layer of the market and the market is not a blockchain blockchain is a settlement and that's how we build it that's how it works now i have order books that can be as fast as centralized exchanges risk management is done on the layer two so this is very important what i mean by risk management i i'll try to explain short the idea is that derivatives they should be characterized if they uncharacterized uh you need to manage this risk so if you if you know that let's speak about insurance this is very simple example objective if you buy insurance if it's fully characterized then you

know that you can have i don't know 100 die as a coverage but if it's not characterized so if it's only partially culturalized or marginally characterized then you know we all cannot get this insurance at the same time but probably if i i need to be covered i'm going to be covered if you're going to be covered as well but if 80 needs to have coverage then there is not enough money and stuff like this and this is very important to understand that the intuitives they created in order to hedge the risk in order to make system uh more stable but if derivatives themselves need to be hatched so because they they introduce risk embedded in themselves that's really really dangerous situation these risk management

should be done not only on a blockchain level at the moment we see a lot of protocols where this risk management done in a blockchain level and it's done by for example margin call liquidations so on so on it works well and it was working well at the beginning of the d5 but i think it's not the way to go because once i have unlimited possibilities to turn money on the blockchain once my return my possible return is not limited it means your possible risk is not limited because if i can make one million dollar just investing 1000 to 100 means somebody will lose this million individually or together but somebody will pay it to me and this is difficult a situation because an unlimited upside is cool and

everybody wants it but unlimited risk nobody wants and it was created in 2008 in the financial system with the cdos which i mentioned and asset back securities it was created probably what it was uh like 10 years before or even five years before and the situation was created hundreds maybe thousand times in the human history and it's all the same it's it's all about greed in a fear and once the economical cycles up it's all about greed and people don't think about risks but once it's it's over then people start to lose money and they only think about risks and uh it's too late so basically you can read a lot about it from warren buffett it's being said so much but i think in current defy people tend to forget about the risks

and risk management and then coming back to your question uh so we keep all this process on layer two so on layer one you always know your maximum gain your maximum risk your maximum return it can be very high it can be very low it's up to you you always know the price you're paying and for what you're paying it what is your upside what is your downside and that's one of the main things we have some features in open protocol like portfolios so you can wrap a lot of positions into one we have spread trading which is probably half of the time uh used by traders so spread trading is like when i sell something i don't to get cash i want to have something else plus money let's say i want to exchange tesla company stock into the google stock and i'm willing to

pay 20 cents on top of it and i don't care where tesla is trading my google's trading but i want to make a spread or when i go long tesla and short equity markets that's very classical trade because i don't i don't know where the equity market will go i just sure that tesla will outperform the market and in this case i buy a tesla future and i short equity markets and i want to pay something for it but i don't care where they both traded and if i'm able to execute them step by step i just say this is combined order and it should be executed all nothing so i buy these i sell these and that's the money i put in table all nothing please and this is 50 of the trades in the financial system so we also have it embedded in opium

and so on so on but this is all the minor things the most important thing is how we think about the levels and the risk management yeah yeah and it it probably helps quite a bit uh coming from the legacy markets and and seeing where all that money is moving because you were doing it yourself and then implementing and integrating the same transactions in an open and decentralized way so you you certainly sound like you have a level up because you know you've been around this ecosystem and um kind of in in the legacy markets and and now you understand where d5 needs to go to integrate one more question and then i think andy we can wrap it up

but for maybe some of our listeners that are less experienced with solidity and kind of how they roll up their transactions can you explain meta transactions and then maybe just at the basic level you know how you can roll those transactions up from layer one which is ethereum and then layer two to meta transactions and then maybe uh you know further layers from there yeah sure so uh by the way we're working now we started on the decay relapse because that's going to be the future but it will take time i just heard a couple of days ago that they have some really big move in the dkr labs i advise everybody to read about it it's recursive decay and it's kind of really big solution for the problem everybody's trying to solve but

answering your question meta transaction is very simple it's like the bank check so you can issue the bank check you can sign it and i can give it to you i say okay this is uh 500 for something and i write a check for you and you go with this check to the bank when you want and you get the money out of the bank it's kind of similar idea with the meta transactions so uh i want to drop a lot of orders into the order book a lot of requests and i i know i can be opportunistic i can i can drop 100 of them and i can withdraw 100 next second but i expect maybe one or two being executed that that's how financial system works so traders trying to get the best price they reprice their orders they they constantly look at it and that

that's how normal i don't need to explain that's how normal exchange work and we do it with the meta transactions each and every order you're trying to get you you put in the order book it's like a bank check and you're saying i want to receive these products for this price and here's my cryptographic signature for the order and the real layer is taking care of your order you can cancel it you can withdraw it and so on so on but once there is an opposite order from somebody else who say i willing to uh do the opposite and here is my cryptographic signature then real layer taking those two orders and dropping them to the blockchain and what the blockchain gonna do is gonna say okay uh i can validate the signatures the cryptographic signatures okay this is really andre okay and this is really bob

and andre wants to get hundreds of something four hundred dollars and bob wants to sell something for a hundred dollars okay and then the blockchain does a swap from my account to bob's account or another way around based on this and small thing before you do this you need to give allowance to the smart contract to manage your funds and you can give allowance to the full account or to the limited part of the account but that's basically like transferring money to the account of the exchange first you go to exchange then you need to transfer the money here you first go to exchange and you need to allow exchange to do something with your thousand dollars and after that you just drop a lot of meta transactions on chain you can drop them every second you can reprice you can make you can build a

boat who gonna uh try to get the best execution or the sweetest products for you for the good price and once one of the orders is hitting hitting the opposite one it's going to be settled it's going to go to blockchain it's going to be settled and the exchange is going to happen in a blockchain all the stuff needs to be done going to be done and this is pretty pretty good solution for the layer 2 before we see the k roll-ups and very fast blockchain ethereum 2.0 it's really convenient to use zerix protocol use the same and a lot of other projects it also allow you to have a better user experience because they don't need to pay uh transaction fees it's you just include it in the enterprise so you just charge a fee and do everything for them so it just

advice to read about it it's really cool technology used quite a lot and even we can put order books on the fast blockchain you need to understand that the fastest blockchain ever is still a million times slower than the wall street and you still need a lot of speed but this type of technologies can uh solve this particular problem and yeah we'll be relaxed yeah all the all the l2 scaling that's all absolutely going to be our main focus as a community i think you know to really get this actually going in a place where we can start to maintain and manage you know huge amounts of capital and to really spread the idea of this life and financial sector on the blockchain that's like a really interesting take and we'll

definitely read more about the rollups articles i know that we've done a bit of research but certainly there's never enough in this new d5 space but andre it was an absolute pleasure we are running out of time here now if there's anything else that you would like to tell the listeners about opium or anything please uh sure i would just end it up with uh two ideas one idea is think about the risks because there is no free money you need to accept some risk and currently it's attractive but it's not risk-free so always think about risks and understand your risks and the second thing everybody is very bullish on defy and i'm i can be critical to defy a lot but i'm also bullish on defy and just imagine that all defy together all like five or six billion right now

it's still about one million times smaller than just the derivative market in traditional finance let's say you just need to realize that just a derivative market which is part of financial system it's one million times bigger than the whole defined so we're all bullish so we believe it's going to happen but when it's going to happen uh we need a lot of scalability you can imagine we cannot run certain activities anymore and even if it takes 0.1 percent of the financial system it's going to be like hundreds of thousands of time growth and we need a lot of scalability a lot of solutions and uh that's probably the next big thing so yeah otherwise thank you so much it was pleasure thanks for the good questions interest and speak to you next time i'm excited to uh hop on opium

start uh looking at some olive oil derivatives and whatever else we can list thanks for coming on andre thank you so much alrighty thanks for listening to the d5i design podcast until next time d5 slate team