DeFi By Design EP#51: Coordinating the Metaverse

Transcript

[Music] d5 slate team [Music] what's up y'all real quick if you like the d5 state content on twitter and youtube and sub stack please please give us a like and a subscribe on this video on youtube and join our channel join the community we'd really appreciate it we're pumping this stuff out for you all as much as we can and we really enjoy the support and the community that we've built thank you very much enjoy what's going on guys welcome to episode 51 of the d5 by design podcast here today to top all things down so if you've heard 2022 is the year of dows um and basically what you're going to learn

today is how to get active in some dao is kind of what a doubt is um some challenges that they have to overcome the legal status uh how to how to um be a contributor um kind of what the hierarchy looks like um some more community-based dows and the distinction between those and kind of larger scale um treasury based dows if you will um also kind of how tokens are uh a part of dao's and how how they are valued and viewed within the community um and so yeah i think it's going to be a really productive conversation because i think 2022 is really going to be the year of the taos so um of course here today with robbie for episode 51 it's been a long time coming and yeah

yeah and he happened to be here and stoked to be talking to spencer from dow house um i'm really interested in kind of digging into the taxonomy of dao's like spencer mentioned kind of ahead of this call the taxonomy laying out the different types of dows what makes one dow different from the next and then how we can utilize that that really brand new corporate structure this method of organizing human coordination and bringing it into the most effective circle so there's different kinds of dials we'll unpack some of the different types and and really digging into what tokens mean for different dows how we can extract value how value is added and really just how daos bring together all the different cryptocurrencies in

the ecosystem and play into the decentralized nature of cryptocurrency as a whole so i'll pass over to spencer how you doing man and stoked to have you here yeah great great to be here um really excited to talk to you guys uh that that list of topics sounds super juicy um i know we only have like a set amount of time but um like the the dow space is so big and so interesting that i feel like i could just talk about that stuff for i don't know like 24 hours straight um uh yeah so so excited to dig in here and hopefully i can do it in a in a concise way so we we stay within our within our time limits

yeah let's let's start off by kind of exploring the structure of kind of how dows are created um so i think i think a good a good model for how how our our audience can kind of think of a dow structure is basically there's this level of distributed authority in terms of you have like different sections of daos that are kind of led by different people um that all kind of contribute to the the overall goal or purpose so you kind of have like this this uh level of delegation um from one sector of of the dow from the treasury to the business development um to you know the product or the coding um so you kind of

have these different these different sectors of adele um that have like kind of trees under them of different people working on different things um so yeah let's dive into the mental model of you know how we can view this abstract concept of of a doubt and its relation to you know a typical multi-member llc or company yeah i think the the biggest difference between um at least kind of like culturally or or in terms of like how things actually happen in a dao versus like a traditional company is that um where you wherever you do have hierarchy or leadership it's more emergent rather than kind of imposed top

down in a company you typically have like one founder or two founders or like some very small group of people that started the thing and are are in charge like quite literally in charge and can and have the power to make all the decisions if they want um often they delegate to other people but they have the power to like fire those other people or override their decisions and in a dow that is simply just just not the case um so wherever there is um well and it's not the case because everybody in the dao co-owns the dao um to some degree or another there's different different types of thousands handle that in different ways and it gets expressed or it's codified in different ways but

every dow has a model of co ownership by all of its members some members have less ownership like a smaller share some owners have some members have a higher share but all of them have have some degree of share and some degree of uh ownership and control over what happens in the dow and and what that means is something really powerful which is that it gives it creates an opportunity for uh leadership and uh inspiration to kind of emerge from anywhere in the dow any of the members or even people somebody outside of the dow can join and kind of emerge as a leader there's there's so much more room

for uh serendipitous uh activity and new possibilities that in a dow than than in a traditional company because uh that is the like kind of the foundation foundational nature of what's happening in a dao versus a traditional company so oftentimes you do see that there are kind of different working groups emerging um like you were describing sort of some a group focused on treasury management a group focused on product development a group focused on maybe some legal aspects a group focused on community management and uh that is actually an interesting interesting like a fascinating part of of what's happening in dao's today where

dows our across the board are kind of grappling with this concept of okay we're this basically where this flat organization we don't have top-down leadership how do we self-organize in a way that we can actually accomplish the things we want to accomplish without like all falling down all over each other trying to trying to interact and uh there's this one interesting trend has been this this idea of of dow composability where you might have smaller working groups that almost are are structured as daos themselves within a much larger dow um and this is the i think this is the case

for really really large nows i think that the bank list now is a really uh really good example of this where they kind of just like did this one big bang thing to all of their all of their listeners and subscribers and all those people that were just in the down and they had to figure out what was going on and over time we've seen lots of different work streams and guilds basically sub-dials within that larger daf form and that's been really interesting to watch uh similar things have been happening within the urine ecosystem they've got their their governance 2.0 structure that kind of identifies and defines different work streams that are are led by uh by different people who have sort of

emerged as as leaders but are not they're not top-down leaders they're they're more uh bottom-up leaders and even within even within dow house itself so uh we we we build dao house we build the dao house platform and we can talk as much or a little bit about that as as we'd like here but um we are our dow ourselves and we've identified that will actually about a year ago we we figured out that we really needed to to separate what we were doing into a bunch of different uh sub-dials or circles as we call them um and we so we have a circle for product development that we call mage

smiths we have a circle for uh tokenomics and incentives that we call alchemists and we have a circle for communications and community and governance stuff which we call rangers and then there's paladins for uh kind of internal operations um so this idea of it like like there's sub-dials to every dow effectively is you know so to to kind of take the abstraction away from this concept for those who are just you know still kind of grasping from what even this is so basically we've got this bigger broader structure that is comprised of of groups of people who are probably skilled at these certain things that they're or they at least have an interest in participating in that specific um aspect of this broader company or

this broader dow as you want to think about it um and so that that kind of allows you to have you know multiple working groups for the broader purpose as you're saying there's different guilds for the bank list how you kind of get everybody in um so i think like something that our our listeners are probably now thinking is okay so i'm probably not going to create it now well just because i don't you know i probably don't have that huge of an audience or i'm not really sure what i'm doing yet but like how do i get involved with with one of these daos you know where is what's the how do i join one of these working groups and participate and actually you know have some meaningful contribution is it as simple as going on discord and joining you know um are there are there any restrictions i guess

let's get into the openness aspect and kind of how uh how our listeners can join a dow you know this year yeah so this is another area where dows really excel over uh traditional companies in a traditional company you have to go through some sort of like hr hiring process submit your resume talk to eight people and they they probably reject you for some other random reason um in a in a dow though it's the um one thing that we like to talk about is that in a doubt the membrane between the dow itself and the outside world is is much more permeable very permeable in fact

and uh working for a dow can uh can involve as much commitment or as much engagement as you would like so somebody it's actually not very difficult for somebody to come into a dow and start working just a couple hours a week or just trying out one little project or doing one little thing and then they can expand their involvement and their engagement from there or they can continue working for lots of different dowels in very small ways the flexibility is really a huge part of this um that said it can be a little bit daunting to figure out how do you actually get started there's some there's well now there are so many

dials out there and they're all doing different interesting things so it can be a little bit hard to figure out you know where where to start there's probably many many different answers to this but the one that i think is if i weren't already working for for a few different dows what i would probably do is try to find try to figure out what i want to what i want to do what is sort of a what is a personal mission that i have and then see if there is a dow that is oriented around running after that objective or that mission so if i wanted to build a d5 product then i might go look at some of the the defy daos out there

and see if i can get involved if i wanted to um if i wanted to talk or do do research and write and kind of curate social tokens that are that are out there and kind of do some kind of social token landscape analysis that i might go find forefront and and join their community um if i wanted to uh be a freelancer and kind of work in the web 3 space in the freelance style then i would go i would go find something like raid guild or or dorg that are you know basically web three development shops or agencies organized as dows providing

services to clients um uh and really at that point it's once you figure out what you want to do it's a matter of figuring out uh then what is the the engagement model for for that doubt so many of them are just kind of come into our discord say hello say what you want to do check out or check out our github see our good first issues and and just like start jamming on something and then and then tell us what you did and how you did it and and then we can you know continue figuring out what else you can do i'm just gonna stop you right there so in that in that in that instance where you join a community you join a discord and you provide some value to the dow um you know i guess the the question is

kind of how how does the dow create a shared understanding of like prioritizing compensation for these contributions so you know the monetary compensation but also like the status or the reputation or the or the governance proposal power or um you know kind of uh like the operational role that you carry you know so you know if rob and i go hop in forefront and start contributing to social tokens you know we put a few hours in and report back you know how does the dow kind of assess okay that's what that that was worth here's what you get or you know here's you know like how does the compensation kind of work for those you know those in our

community who are now who now understand you know here's some you've laid out some dows you've laid out kind of how to get in and you know how to contribute but you know kind of what do they get in return and how how do dows kind of assess the prioritization yeah that is a a big topic um of what i would say is like ongoing research and experimentation within thous i can't speak specifically to how forefront handles it um or or many other dows handle it but i i can't speak to what um we at dao house have been have been uh trying to figure out we've actually are just now going through sort of a revamp of our

compensation process um but and i can get into that a little bit but really the the big challenges are how to how like with this kind of tension between wanting to make sure that you are paying people only for the work that they've done um so that it's it's much easier to assess the value that they've delivered and the the the benefits that they have kind of conferred on the dow versus wanting to give wanting to attract new talent in into the dows perhaps with some sort of uh more consistent pay

um both of those are are pretty pretty challenging especially when when there's a tension between them and especially because in a dao there's no there's no top-down ceo it is kind of just declare here's what we're going to do and then everybody kind of has to has to follow that so one really interesting mechanic that has started to emerge is this idea of more collective bottoms up assessment of the value of other people's work one of the tools that has and now has been is starting to be used by lots of different dows and that's called coordinate coordinate is really cool because you basically is basically a way for all the individuals that work with

all the other individuals within the dow it's a way for each of those people to essentially sit have their say in how much everybody else should get paid for a given thing and there's there's lots of different ways to use that mechanic at dao house what we're doing is we're using that almost as bonuses for uh for everybody in the dow so we have our house token which um is is part of uh that's the the token that kind of accrues value as the as the dow house ecosystem grows and expands and and and delivers value to people so we what we do is we basically give house tokens based on this coordinate bottoms up

assessment of the work that everybody has done every about every month to our contributors what we also do though is we say expensive sorry are those tradable please swap do those have an ethereum value you know um you know so or those kind of more community value like uh as far as like um seniority goes kind of like i'm a veteran i have this many tokens you know what's the what's the value proposition real quick of the house token and more broadly like of tokens for dow are they tradable or more so kind of like socially aspects for yeah so there's a there's a ton of interesting stuff relating to tokens and bows

with uh so with dow house specifically it's a little bit different than a lot of other dows our house token um it actually so maybe i'll start by talking about how a lot of other dows kind of handle it and then i can come back to dow house does that make sense yeah perfect i didn't mean to cut to cut you off there but as soon as our audience hears they get a token they're going to be wondering okay what is this token going to do for me yeah so okay so just really quick the house token does have a value i can't recall exactly what what it is now um the the majority of what dao house the the the most of of dao house's governance um which is handled by a

broader organization called uberhouse which we can go back to that is all happening currently on the x-die network um the reason for that is uh bow governance is expensive from a gas perspective so about a year ago given the the gas situation on mainnet we had to we had to make a decision about uh somewhere else to handle our main governance so that is all currently happening on xdi remains to be seen whether that's going to be where we are in the long run especially with lots of other layer twos roll-ups et cetera coming online with with cheaper gas environments um so the the house token currently is um

is liquid on on honey swap which is on x die that may change over time um but uh a lot of dows so a lot of dows use their token as the way to define membership in the dow so if you have the token then you can vote on snapshot and you can access the kind of the like the the channels within the discord server via collab land or something like that and uh that is a pretty low friction model it means that membership in the dow is permissionless which is pretty cool um and for for those reasons that's what

the i think i would say the the majority of organizations that call themselves daos um do personally i i think that's pretty dangerous i i think there's a lot of a lot of risk that exists when you use a token with financial value and that is permissionlessly traded on a on a decentralized exchange to manage membership in your dow as well as governance over your dao there's a lot of risks associated with that and one of them is uh like adversarial risk like you could have a if there's if there's a dad that you're competing with or just some whale that doesn't like you

they can relatively easily buy up a bunch of your token and have a big pretty big influence over what's happening in your dow um i was listening to a pod with uh vitalik and yeah and thankless guys and they're talking about basically layer zero which is like if something were to happen like that they're like beyond coin voting there could potentially be like a second backstop for like something else um you know some other form of basically uh the community coming together without having to hard fork their entire dow and like move elsewhere to to say like okay no like that's not going to happen um interesting to see how that develops but

yeah that just came to mind because like you know as you say if a whale does do that and then they control the voting of and then you know well you're kind of screwed there yeah especially if they ought to have a lot of like ether die and your or some other tokens in your treasury um in in in the worst case scenario the the whale could just kind of essentially 51 attack you with with their votes and then take all all the money realistically that that's probably pretty difficult especially for the larger dows with you know high uh high token market caps um but that actually is is another risk where if a lot of the like attention and positive energy of your of your dow is

oriented around like your token price going up then if it doesn't continue to go up or or something happens and it goes down for whatever reason maybe because somebody manipulated a market somewhere or because all of ethereum started to crash or something then there's certain kind of unknown risks of how your community and how your dao is going to respond to that um yeah so there's lots of challenges with using a token to kind of define and drive your dow governance um so what instead of that at dao house what we do is and actually we focus on those that are that don't even need to have a token um

at dao house the the dows that we basically dao house is a platform for uh launching and running uh molok daos so molok daos are permissioned voting shares are non-transferable and you also also get have when you're in the dow you have a certain type of exit right called ragequit and and ragequit is really a magical governance concept that basically gives anybody in the dow the right to leave with their portion of the funds that that have been put into the dow at any point so if somehow a whale were to come in and have

like more than half the shares even then if they tried to pass a proposal just to give themselves all of the money everybody else could uh before that proposal got executed even if it did pass everybody could rage quit and leave with uh with their money so this was essentially a la that's a mechanism for for them to to coordinate around the hard fork actually right even though there are assets like ethan benefits as well and so we focused on on molok taos at dao house and um the the governance of dao house is

handled by a um well it's an it's a basically an uber now so we call it uber house and that is compo comprised of some of the biggest and earliest dows to use the dow house platform so uber house is a molok down and the members of uber house are other dows that use the dow has platform our um kind of core contributor dao is is one of those so together with all the other dows we kind of control uh and govern the direction of the dow house ecosystem and platform including the house token supply so that is another example of kind of this composability of daos where all of us are in this big doubt together and

then there's lots of other dows underneath and then for us for us um our sort of what we call the war camp dao the core contributor dow we have all these other subdials under that the way that the house token works is that if you if you're a dow and you have a bunch of you have at least 500 house tokens then you can tribute those house tokens into uber house and and by doing so become a member of uber house so we're using the token kind of as a way that it's anticipate continue to earn

um essentially have power within the system with these tokens and then if they ever want to leave they can rage quit or unstake [Music] yeah exactly so uh one one question that we get a lot is okay so rage quit means that anybody can leave with their portion of the assets at any time does that mean that uh that somebody can just rage quit like the entire treasury that they had no part in that like they didn't put into the into the dow and the answer is is yes if that's how you you've structured things if like if your dow is

making lots of revenue and all the revenue is like coming into the coming into the main treasury then yes anybody could any member could rage quit with their portion of of all of that revenue um but one of the things that we've been working on quite a lot within dao house is um giving dao's tools to do other things and be have some more flexibility with how they handle their operations and their kind of financial flows um so we uh we do a lot of work on um what are called minions in the molek dao world minions are basically like helper helper contracts helper smart contracts

for malloc nows and they they do a few things one they allow a molok dow to interact with any other smart contract so do kind of arbitrary uh arbitrary transactions so uh do a swap on uniswap uh do lots of other things within d5 et cetera et cetera the other thing they do though is they can store funds so the minions can hold funds that are outside of the reach of ragequit so in that sense the amolek dao can can govern a separate separate treasury or a separate vault uh that can can store other funds um and that that's currently how uber house

works so there's the main treasury where all the the house tributes go from those other downs but then there's a then there's a vault on the side which is not rage quittable which holds all or i guess the the outstanding or holds the the house token uh house token supply so those dows can't just like rage quit with so much of the of the house token supply that they yeah they can't really have a right they can't quit with the entire supply it was only what they put up uh exactly this like core of the dow house to essentially their tribute they're what they're staking to be a big part of the the uber dow solid so you you brought up the malek

dow and how some of these um you know it has certain properties where these shares are non-transferable um you have different functions where you can interact with the dow whether that's you know rage quit or contribute in in a matter of different ways what are some of the other um dow types aside from malik daos and and how do they differ um and maybe we can break it down as far as like the the majority of d5 dow's uh governance tokens are approaching doubts in this way um we have malik daos and then you know there's probably some other types of daos that you want to unpack as well yeah um so at a high at a high level i think there's

um there so there's there's molok daos and other you know somewhat similar constructs that are really oriented around creating like a baseline infrastructure for a community to kind of emerge from that so they they don't really uh they don't really specify a lot of a lot of logic in the in the smart contract about how the the dow is going to work they kind of just set this baseline and then a community can kind of emerge from that it is a permissioned community so new members have to basically have to apply with a membership proposal that is very different from these larger token defined dows

so there's so one kind of set of token defined dows are like the comp or compound governance or i guess uniswap which is sort of a fork of that um or actually nouns dao which is a fork of that using nfts instead of erc20s for governance and and those are are pretty cool because they're permissionless token defined downs where voting and governance is is fully on chain so if i have comp token then i i know that my influence over what's happening in in the compound ecosystem with a compound protocol is is direct so i when i vote i am directly influencing the

outcome of that vote and if there's an execution that happens as a result of the vote i will have directly influenced or caused that execution with my portion of the votes there are other d5 and other types of protocols that are using a slightly different approach um and my hot take is that the approach that they're using is uh not quite um structurally a dow it's more like a an aspirational down and the reason i think this is that the approach that they take is is often one of um so there's a token and the token allows you to come into the discord and the token allows you to vote on snapshot

but the results of those snapshot votes which is an off chain just really just a signaling vote based on the number of tokens you have the result of that is that there is a a multi-sig that you know three to seven or nine of key privileged members of the organization control and that that structure really relies on the like reputational forces where uh that that the members of the multisig face so uh basically it's relying on them recognizing that if they don't do what the snapshot signaling vote says they should do

then they they make they may cause some strife within the community and the rest of of their organization and i assume spencer that there's like different weights for like different activities you know we to to kind of answer the the broader question that i had back back as far as how compensation goes so we got the dow structure the sub diaz we got the joining the dows through the discord and kind of getting active checking out their their coordinate for their github or even their notion to see what you can do you can get in there you can do a task and then the answer to how you can compensate is typically in that token um and so now i where we're getting at is kind of the um you know who gets to decide on you

know who gets basically paid um and so i assume there's there's some sort of tooling that is available um to assess the um you know the weight of certain activities in in the data when you say wait what what do you mean specifically like um the the comparison and compensation for somebody who writes uh the weekly newsletter versus somebody who is doing yeah you know the social media account versus somebody who is you know handling the treasury stuff like that uh yeah i mean i think those things are definitely valued valued differently i don't think there's great i don't think there's a

a standard way that that dows are are valuing those um some sometimes dads will put out bounties for certain things um and they'll still kind of assign a particular value to that and so if somebody completes that bounty then they'll get the whatever tokens were associated with that task bounties are pretty challenging because you have to specify them really really precisely and there may be a lot of a lot of things that are difficult to specify very precisely um so i think bounties are a pretty small portion of of the way that dows get work done and compensate people

often times at least at least what i can tell you is that within uh within dao house the way we handle it if somebody does um something they'll just kind of make a proposal uh requesting a certain amount of money um that they that they um that they think what they did was worth and then it's sort of up to the the rest of the group the rest of the dow to approve that or deny that now usually there's a kind of a pre-process where there's sort of a form that people fill out like okay this is what i did all over the last month here's what i think that was worth and then that gets aggregated and so there's sort of a soft

governance part of it where people can have conversations about uh okay well did that really did what you did really warrant five thousand dollars for the last month um and if so why not um what we have found is that doesn't happen a ton because we're we have split things into small enough groups where it's it's pretty easy to know what other people are up to so it's pretty hard to get away with uh like requesting too much money um in fact probably we have the opposite problem where people are not asking for enough because they're so like community oriented that they they want to leave money for other people um so we're trying that's one of the things we're actually actually grappling with i think there's a ton of room for dows

to improve their processes of of this kind of thing there's not a lot of um not a lot of standards right now um it's it's a big area for experimentation yeah so that's in terms of the tooling as far as how are these decision processes made um the organization of people here is is different in the different dows that you mentioned malik daos uh you know some of them have this more uh like inner council where those are the ones making decisions and then um you know others kind of emerge right from the bottom up um and that that's where i think these dows are heading it's kind of like the bottom up approach

where it's these working groups of people that are determining okay this is kind of what i'm working on uh i know that this is you know contributing to the overall uber uh mission of what's happening but uh ultimately how how is that valued relatively to the rest of the working groups um and it's still it's still being experimented and tried out but i guess kind of as we're as we go along um i kind of see these as you know they're community oriented but ultimately they're they're kind of like closed loops of businesses not really for profit but not really not for profit either um so

you know obviously these these communities are trying to generate money that's why people are dedicating their time but there's not a lot of surplus in the sense that um there's you know money just getting added and added and added a lot of it is okay for the community there's different ways to add value to the token and a lot of times it's this token that reflects a portion of the dao itself so really a portion of the community going over and above just you know your portion of the treasury and like what you're entitled to if you rage quit um your share of the dow in that's reflected in this token is more than

just kind of that monetary value um so in terms of the bottoms up approach someone can you know generate this value get a portion of this community and then start to integrate with other communities and become more composable so i guess that that's kind of where i'm headed is in terms of composability for dows you know you've kind of set up like this uber dow that is comprised of different sub-dials but you know dow house is like that that's what you guys do is like you guys do dows so the governance um structure and what what dao house is bringing to the community

is really set up around kind of fostering experimentation endows and getting this tooling out there how are other taos organized in the sense that we're bringing composability between daos just because they're dows but like where do we see these organizations happening what kind of taos are composable with another and is it really just like you know you just want borrowed compounds governance and in kind of like this other way that we were talking about before but they don't really interact with one another too much um i guess i'm more about like how can we get composability across dows so that

contributions to uniswap are just as measurable just as easy to value as someone's contributions over to compound um you know is there like how do we approach some sort of standard in the sense that okay whether i'm whether i'm contributing to unit swap or compound or urine that is a contribution to d5 how do we unite those all together are you are you thinking a lot here about like identity and how does an individual tr like bring with them their experience from one bow and how they get properly reflected in what they're doing in another is that mainly what you're you're thinking about right because it is aggregated almost in the individual so the that's the

composability bridge almost is from one doubt to the next is yeah like this identity you're bringing it to you in uniswap and then you're bringing it over to compound how can we we merge those and essentially bring um i hesitate to call it capital efficiency it's really like a matter of like just eliminating inefficiencies when we're crossing over between dows yeah so it's like like in from how to kind of close information gaps and therefore inefficiencies that would would result from those essentially yeah yeah i i sort of dow contributor identity is is a big uh another big area

um i there's a lot of different people thinking about this and and working on it um metagame is kind of an example within the uh within one particular community where they're trying to create profiles that gonna give you uh where like it's a place where you can see all your activity um within daos and and what you've been doing uh deep dow is kind of doing a little bit of this as well where they're kind of aggregating your activity and across multiple dows um uh i think oh yeah democracy earth as well they're all kind of trying to take on

chain information from across various taos various different types of dao frameworks etc and sort of bring it into into one place for the individual and and for many individuals um yeah because to just kind of like i guess contextualize the the potential problem here a little bit more is you know we we're starting to group dows into kind of like you mentioned an uber down and like an aggregator there but as we roll up these smaller dowels into bigger ones are we losing decentralization right like could we just have more nodes in this network made up of the smaller dows um and and reach some you know

uh more impact from like a again a bottoms up type of approach rather than some rather than like a hierarchy of these dowels is that right yeah um so i think when we when we talk about uber house and you know sub-dials within the various communities there i guess when we say sub-dial that does imply a certain level of hierarchy but one thing we actually see happening is that dows that start out as like groups or working groups that start out as sub-dials so often actually start providing

services or working horizontally with other dowels so uh um one of the one of the like smaller like sub dials that we helped to to spin up within dao house we call the the boost foundry and so tao has is kind of like a you can think of it almost like an operating system for molecules where you can create apps on on top of that operating system and we call those apps boosts a lot of those apps are the minions that i was talking about earlier there's some other things as well that helps help dows you know do more or access different types of functionality

so boost foundry is a dow that we helped to fund to you know help create third-party boosts but members of that dow kind of have gone off and done other things elsewhere so it's not necessarily just stuck underneath the the dow house or the uber house umbrella so that is something that we we have seen and i think is is really cool where um because that is a really clear example of autonomy the a sabda is not like deferential to its to its parent dao or to the umbrella dow it it has autonomy to go do other things as well and work in different spaces

so i'm not terribly concerned about the kind of this hierarchy of dao's creating a centralizing force um although uh it does help to to think we we do have to you know constantly remind ourselves that vows are meant to be autonomous and we should not be creating uh if we're creating something that is like purely differential to a higher like a broader uh broader group then maybe it's not appropriate to call that a now yeah and it's it's it's all about maintaining that operational efficiency kind of as you scale right because as you say the traditional top-down companies i mean you know even how we we run this media project you know we've

got a team we have tasks we got uh you know a notion board set out for kind of like the systemizations we got the systems you know these people do this so it's it's it is ran more like a doubt but that centralized point of control is you're able to get things done quick with one say and it's done um so you know i think it's kind of having that happy medium between staying efficient and being able to maintain operational control to as to avoid you know like these whale attacks or just basically loss of uh of delegation and motivation but also keeping it decentralized enough people have ownership so people feel like they're a part of something so that way that you know there are groups going on and you maintain that uh you know open

autonomous nature um you know i know we only have a few minutes here but we haven't touched much on the legal of diaz um so i'm wondering kind of so i guess the first question um you know if you can answer it briefly that would be amazing is kind of does dao house have a legal counsel do most styles have a legal counsel um you know what has been the thought process with regards to getting a legal counsel for a doubt yeah uh that's a that's a hard hard topic i can't really speak to a bunch of other dows about their their legal counsel and and status i know that some do um some of the bigger ones certainly have like legal advice coming in from uh

like from their vcs or something or like their initial funders at dao house uh so molok dows lend themselves pretty well to an llc uh structure and so at da house what we've done for our main contributor dow and similarly at raid guild which i'm a member of as well we've basically wrapped and none of this of course is i should just be clear none of this is like legal advice i'm definitely not a lawyer um i just have a little bit of exposure to uh to what's been happening in the dows that that i've been a part of um there's basically a an llc wrapper around the the dow and it basically the the llc itself like just defers to the

the dao smart contract when it comes to defining who's a member of the of the dower i guess in this case of the llc and kind of the operational rules of of the dow this is very very simple just kind of some pretty straightforward like liability protection for all of the the members of the dow yeah that makes only available in certain jurisdictions or kind of you know how do you how does one put a uh location on a dao uh yeah i i think if you like if you do it it definitely feels kind of artificial right because dows are like they just permeate everywhere i believe i could be wrong about this

but i believe both dao house and raid guild they're those llc's are our delaware llc's yeah makes sense or wyoming have been two popular ones yeah so do you i i kind of see daos is like another veil of protection almost in a legal way like if you got an llc for business you're running and then you decentralize your dow to have the funds managed by multi-sig community approach you know you really kind of get out of that that you know single member or multi-member llc kind of concept so it's it's interesting to see i mean we're not going to get too much into it but it's actually interesting and certainly a large use case that can't be ignored

that is dows are a means to kind of finagle your way around legal issues that could come up when operating a global scalable entity that hasn't really been operated before now i'm not i'm not suggesting that we go out and just create doubts just so we don't have to follow the rules but yeah there's gonna need to be some global rule setting almost in you know in order to enforce you know good actions in the daos but what's cool about dao is that as long as the goal is an appropriate mission it kind of siphons itself out automatically to a get rid of people who aren't contributing to the right cause or who are doing anything bad so if

there's one bad apple they kind of automatically get pushed out because well they're not going to earn anything and if they do you know they're not going to be a part of anything long term and then and then yeah kind of b is like you're you are working towards you know a goal that you know the north star of a dow and it's typically something that is is is beneficial to everybody involved um and so yeah you kind of automatically get rid of something like uh you know an investment fraud scheme just by the nature of how it's set up because everything's so open and transparent there's no there's no room to falsify information there's no you know there's no like like hell somebody from the sec could come join the damn discord and you

know see what's going on it as open as possible to see all the financials see everything um you know so in a sense it's uh yeah it's just like the openness is is mind-blowing really um and yeah i think it almost uh prohibits bad acting just by the nature of how it is yeah transparency and collective ownership is a really really powerful combination yeah that's awesome well look we asked this question every single time we got one minute left the question is if you had to pitch da house to one person in the world inside the crypto industry or not in an elevator for 60 seconds who would you pitch and what would the pitch be

like oh boy okay um inside the crypto industry um i think uh i think i would i would maybe i won't identify one person but i think i would try to pitch um it's kind of the one like a big d5 founder um and not that they would be able to use dow house immediately but i would love to see a big d5 protocol start to figure out ways to uh

to use molok daos to to govern uh govern what they're doing rather than a cabal of of people on a multi-sig um there's uh it would the the pitch would be probably more of a like a just planting a seat kind of thing not trying to get them to convert immediately but trying to uh describe what what dao house is doing and why we believe so strongly in um in community control and and distributed power uh especially very early on in particularly in particular very early on because of the the kind of the

corrupting nature of persistent power thank you awesome yes spencer it's been a pleasure definitely have learned quite a bit and i and i know our community is going to be ready to dive into doubts awesome thanks for having me this has been really fun thanks for coming on spencer yeah he gave us a lot to think about in in terms of different dow structural types great you