DeFi By Design EP#28: Creating Stable Yield on Composable Assets w James Simpson

Transcript

yo what's going on guys welcome to episode 29 of the d5 by design podcast here today with the co-host the man the myth the legend rob who just absolutely crushed a bunch of math exams he is absolutely in this tow win it finally he is ready rob and we are here today with james simpson i sound like a true commentator but james simpson is from the m stable protocol uh an australian mate surfing it up in costa rica you're here today to discuss all things defy m stable governance stable coins all sorts of good stuff we'll turn it over to robbie how are you doing today robbie what's

going on andy my guy i know we've been doing this podcast for quite a while but uh i think it's time nbc offers you a a slot on the tonight show or something as always it's a beautiful day here in florida sun is shining um yeah i'm ready to get outside today and really just kick it definitely been killing these exams graduation is right around the corner so i'm happy to be done with class for you know the last 13 years like we've uh we've been working on so uh super excited to be talking to james part of the unstable team and i'll pass it over to him and uh he can go ahead and introduce himself and get us started cool yeah thanks guys um yeah i'm james simpson uh co-founder of mstable um at mcable we um launched the protocol back in may

last year started in 2019 um really trying to solve some of the biggest pain points um in uh stablecoin for stablecoin users um so we currently have uh a stable coin amm uh for usd stable coins and bitcoin uh a high yielding savings account that's averaged between um kind of 10 and 30 yield since launch and that's just in pure uh pure usd yield yeah and that's what product so that's kind of a super high level overview of m stable but yeah great to great to be here and keen to kind of dig into some recent trends and in d5 and some of the stuff that we've been working on as well yeah so i was telling you guys earlier

about the investment kind of sales banker dude that i was speaking with earlier and um showing him some of the yield on ave and m stable and a few other places and and he was just kind of like perplexed at like what is and and why that is you know so james i'm curious kind of what your explanation is to how m stable is able to get uh 10 to 30 percent apy and kind of why stable coin yields you know are high in d fire right now i know originally just getting off the start but what do you answer to a traditional finance or to an older person who's kind of aware of how markets work you know why are the rates in d5 for uh stable coin lending so high

yeah it's really good it's a really good question um i think there's a question on on like the base yield uh on compound and ave and and those dynamics i won't kind of jump into at the moment but you can kind of get uh still a higher yield than you can get on your bank account and that could be to do with some kind of risk profile that people are pricing into lending assets on on on d5 as opposed to uh through through a bank um and also potentially kind of a lack of supply of um of dollars in in d5 um making those rates a little bit higher than they would be in the traditional markets for emma stable um the way that we've we looked at it is uh our mission from

the very beginning was to unify uh stable coins um sable coins generally have been an area in d5 that have had a lot of fragmentation um so there's obviously like five major usd stable coins and before amms like curve and m stable it was actually pretty inefficient to trade between them uh you often had to trade two bitcoin and then bitcoin to another stable coin um and incur quite a bit of slippage in the process the way that like that that's kind of a problem obviously and we uh realized that you could actually create some interesting capital efficiencies by creating a smart contract that did a few things one automatically lent out

collateral assets two simultaneously allowed to allow those stable coins to be traded efficiently between each other swapped and then lastly actually create a meta-stable coin that can be redeemed for the underlying collateral and really it's it's just that simple idea of combining lending income with trading fees from our swap product that enables this this uh really high uh high yield so on m stable if you're in the savings account you not only get um a base yield from collateral assets that are on compound and rba but you also get all the trading fees i get the trading fees that the um amm the exchange product generates so yeah

that's kind of a bit of a bit of background on how that works super cool yeah and i mean it's interesting to see kind of the relationship that um all these different pools play with each other because they all they all have their own niche right like ave compound and stable are all similar but but importantly different maybe you could kind of unpack that relationship between some of the ways that meta gets apy and it it earns interest compared to some of these other ones and you mentioned the meta token um that that seems to really underscore a lot of the smart contract usage that is happening in uh the m stable protocol could you explain a little bit more how people are able to redeem and what that really means in terms of uh you know when people redeem how that

affects the system overall yeah so i mean the way i'm thinking about m stable is that it sits above these more uh kind of base layer protocols so i'd say like rv and compound are kind of these base layer d5 protocols um a lot of different protocols and applications rely on on compound and rv m stable kind of sits above these and we uh deposit our collateral assets on onto compound and rv uh but then we're able to be a bit more flexible with what we do with the protocols collateral so for example we're looking at one day rebalancing the collateral let's put it into the smart contracts into the best into the highest yielding protocol so

compounds usdt markets generating higher yield the contracts could automatically rebalance across to that so that's kind of yeah just importantly we can kind of choose where we receive that yield but we're always kind of earning those trading fees um and that's kind of magic about d fires you can really create these amazing capital efficiencies that just weren't possible in traditional markets um so you can actually use the same money to lend out but um you can also use it to uh to trade and that's pretty pretty significant yeah it's it's like there's layers to the stack that i mean as we know work together uh to enable these efficiencies in the market and i mean the way that i think about it is

obviously you've got the money lego thesis but i like to think about it in the sense of uh of there's of there's different types of protocols that enable certain things as you're saying right so there's compound in ave which then m-stable builds on top of right and there's layers to it uh and one thing that this that this older dude was telling me he was telling me about the arbitrage opportunities that that are ever present in d5 um you know we just did you know some very simple examples of okay you know how about you deposit you know 10k of usdc into ave at seven percent uh borrow uh the same you know usd at 12 bring it over to you know let's say m stable at

18 and boom you've got yourself a seven percent yield then six percent uh on what you've borrowed right and so there's there's all these arbitrage opportunities available as well which it increases risk but it makes ever present that yeah there's ways to use capital that you know we're kind of un unveiling uh that have not been seen and it it kind of takes us to the uniswap v3 launch where there's there's a lot of hype about it um you know and and a lot of things and then and the number one thing from what i've learned about it is capital efficiency is uh a requirement for decentralized exchanges and for dexes the argument that hayden was making was that tvl is not an

important metric for decentralized exchanges do you agree with that james or how do you feel about the concept of tvl uh when it comes to capital efficiency for decentralized exchanges yeah it's a good i mean tvl has been like the metric that it's like a very easy metric to go by um but it's not necessarily a very intelligent one um because i mean we we look at d5 pulse and you see that there's like 43 billion dollars locked in defy um but it's often double counted so obviously m stables deposits are actually on compound and rba um so but d5 pulse have m stable on the list um and also compound and rba so the real number of

tdl is there's a lot lower um and also it's important to realize that a lot of these um a lot of the tbl in the uh like denominated in usd is actually uh the increase is just to do with asset prices increasing like s and x and e just going going through the rows that said we i think it's still a useful metric to see kind of broadly the interest that the users have uh in a certain protocol but yeah specifically in terms of amms i think tbl is important to the extent where obviously you need deep and liquid markets but was there something that hayden was talking about specifically why it wasn't uh particularly important no it was just it was simply trolls trolling about how uh you know with the

um with the concentrated liquidity aspect uh you need you know you can get the same amount of of rewards or a fees by providing say you know a fifth of the liquidity you know it instead of having your stable coin pairs uh be provided from you know zero to 10 range you can just concentrate your liquidity from the 99th percentile to like the dollar and one percentile um you know and so you need in that sense you know a tenth of the amount and so and so the argument was isn't uh tvl just going to drop like a fly and hayden was explaining that simply he almost doesn't really care about tvl uh because he wants the maximum capital efficiency

yeah well i think that makes total sense um and yeah i think i think generally um like pbl was like we're not doing this in order to just have high pbl it's about creating like much more capital efficient markets um so if that capital can be used elsewhere and we can and you can still have big liquid markets and that's fantastic and i think generally that's actually a pretty good way to be defensible i mean if big capital allocators will always choose the most efficient route for their money um so if they can they'll effectively just like stop if this works out then the large capital allocators will likely just deposit onto uni swap and they might forget about the sushi swap if they don't do a similar thing if they can earn a similar yield with less capital andy that almost seems like

the answer to your to your initial question of you know when you were talking to the more traditional financer and he was kind of perplexed why rates were so high well the answer seems relatively simple it's because there's more efficient movement of capital happening in decentralized finance then centralized um you know because there's a lack of intermediaries those people um well not necessarily people but those centralized entities aren't directing the flow of capital through their own entity for their own gain it's you know the peer-to-peer network um and capital takes the most efficient route no matter what that route is it doesn't

have to go through any centralized entities in particular because you know they want to capture some value for themselves um that gets away from kind of the tvl metric but i i would agree with kind of you know what you guys are saying with hayden that it's relatively unimportant how much money or how much capital is being stored in any particular contract as long as as long as that capital is taking the most efficient route for where it's moving you're going to have really the highest rates possible for any any given time period yeah i mean i i would i would also just say that i think a big you know the the the largest capital allocators in the world like the

biggest hedge funds um for example they they're very efficient with their capital and they kind of use prime brokers to collateralize assets that they have and then create kind of streams of debt which they can then invest elsewhere and that's kind of what we're obviously very used to in d5 but the difference i think is that this kind of prime broker model is open to everyone and it's kind of just embedded by default into the technological infrastructure so if you deposit capital into either you have a composable token that earns earns yield that represents the capital you deposited it and it all future yield and then you can use that to

put into maker dao and die and then you can reinvest that dye somewhere else and that's just kind of the the default of how d5 works i think like yeah just something i would emphasize that kind of a big big revolutionary aspect to this is that it's capital efficiency for everyone by default as opposed to just the few and i think that kind of pop husu and suzu from three hours they they call it um kind of the emergence of financial populism um in d5 and i think that's like a big a big kind of directional tailwind that i think will get a lot of people pretty excited about the

technology well it's interesting and it reminds me of something that i heard vitalik say that eventually these rates that seem so high now are gonna kind of go towards the rates that we've seen in traditional finance like there's nothing really so special about d5 that's going to increase these rates in perpetuity um you know it's just kind of a short-term burst that we're seeing high rates now but i would almost disagree with that because if we treat capital as a whole rather than just someone's individual capital that they have access to it seems like capital as a whole is being improved the efficiency is being improved and i mean i i'll kind of ask this as a question like

do you guys think that rates overall can be sustainably higher than what we've seen in traditional finance because of that increased efficiency or are they just going to tail into um kind of the the rates that we have seen just more traditionally in lending and borrowing yeah i mean it's difficult to say i think that where like a lot of the yields have come from artificial incentives um just from yield farming and i think that uh at some point there's no one left to to sell to um as in that's the whole premise of these yield farming it relies on there to be more by pressure than

cell pressure um otherwise those yields obviously go down pretty quickly so i think a lot of those artificial yields may may decrease and have to be kind of reinvented um and that's all part of kind of tokenomics in terms of like the real like your lending yields and stuff like that um i suspect that as the barrier to kind of fiat money onboarding into crypto decreases and i suspect that to happen pretty rapidly in the next 12 months we've already seen dharma announced yesterday that users can deposit 25 000 uh worth of um their kind of fiat money in a u.s bank account to

um to d5 in like 25 000 per week uh that's kind of the beginning of what i think is will be a dramatic increase in fiat supply into crypto that'll inevitably um decrease rates because the supply will will kind of outpace the demand so i suspect those rates will decrease and i think that's particularly why it's important um to have different sustainable ways to earn additional yield and that's what we have tried to build in m stable um by having a uh kind of swap product um a m alongside the lending income so even if those that that kind of base

of lending income decreases we still have kind of an additional uh sustainable yield because we think that there will always be some kind of fragmentation and stable coins yeah um i mean that's super cool and and it's interesting to hear that kind of as the friction to onboard between um you know someone's bank account and d5 as that friction decreases so so do the lending rates because intuitively it almost seems like um there's more there's more access and has more access um you know that that could accompany more demand or at least just you know easier on boarding into into d5 okay yeah i i i i just think it'll be

more supply of of i mean it depends what we think about like if we're talking about usd rights um in d5 that's kind of what i was talking about specifically i think that increase in supply of usd in d5 will mean that um there's less of a need to borrow if people can onboard fiat money cheaply and easily but particularly because why would you if you can onboard money super easily from your from your trad five bank account where you can borrow money for like less than one percent why would you borrow money in d5 for like three or four percent um so that's kind of where i'm coming from

yeah and the rates the borrow rates on uh on ave and compounder now are like upwards of like eight percent 10 twelve percent um and and they're all they're all obviously usd stable coins and uh m stable has musd uh which you can you can uh put in the savings pool right now and i believe i checked was about 18 um obviously we've seen uh you know these yields stay around this area in different different protocols for a while and now that we've gone over kind of what is the future of these rates specifically for stable coins you know usd stable coins i'm genuinely curious james what you think of these new kind of floating uh unpegged stable coins

like rye um ohm even and a few other ones i'm not talking about the senior edge kind of um you know those ones but i'm i'm more speaking about this this idea of creating units of measure in d5 that are not uh revolved around any particular fiat currency rather revolved around a less volatile form of money if you will that is not necessarily pegged a dollar but in rye's case stays you know between two two dollars two dollars um what do you think about these uh floating uh stable coins to the dollar kind of uh their own unit of measure in d5 you know do they have a future are they uh

are they practical yeah it's it's super interesting i think you know you can define stable coins as being stable to a peg so like is your stable coin stable in reference to usd um but like a more interesting way to define it i think is is it it doesn't have stable purchasing power i think like in the short term usd is a pretty good one uh for stable purchasing power in a long term it isn't so good um you kind of see the us dollars are worth less and less um if you take a decade by decade view um of things in in the next six months it's a pretty pretty good unit of account um and store value if you have if your

time price is a bit shorter um so if we can kind of create a a d5 native uh peg that has stable purchasing power but i think it's like incredibly interesting i suspect that's what bitcoin really is designed to do in the long term so if you look at kind of gold's purchasing power over time it's actually really like compared to usd it's like incredibly stable over like centuries um and i think that like that that's what bitcoin really wants to be uh be that kind of stable purchasing power that's not

um related to any kind of outside peg um it's obviously will take quite a quite a while for that um price discovery to happen uh we'd see kind of people are still trying to work out exactly what bitcoin's worth um so i suspect to have like a sustainable uh peg that's not um that's not completely independent of anything else it'll take a long time and i think bitcoin for me is the one that will do it the best but there are other interesting kind of ways of doing it as well in d5 um and i think generally it's it's pretty smart if it can be cracked

because then d5 becomes this kind of completely independent financial system um yeah that's kind of what i was talking about yeah exactly right it's like i mean i don't anticipate any sort of collapse in in that's in currencies i mean that's just all kind of uh far-fetched i think um you know the the us dollar is backed by the us government and the us military and that right there is you know quite a bit of reassurance that we are in a in a place of security obviously inflation's happening obviously you know certain monetary policies with the fed and stuff has happened there's a whole bunch of things happening but um yeah point is if there was one of

those events then d5 would go down with it currently however as you're getting at if we could we could kind of spry away from that and get to a place where there is no reliance on that then yeah but i mean at this point it's the most practical as you're saying with the on-ramps uh with the with the dollar stable coins and potentially bitcoin uh is supposed to be this kind of store value and unit of measure over time but obviously you were quite a bit away there it really begs the question kind of where is the influence of bitcoin and the dollar stable coins in d5 headed where do they coexist are they are they there for uh kind of the market to participate in

you know one could say oh all coins have been traded against against bitcoin uh for you know for years now but now we've got these usd trading pairs um you know so it really makes you wonder is there going to be a point in which the existence of stable coins is less needed than uh bitcoin is in d5 because if bitcoin can sort of solve this role for us uh if you will as this unit of measure and purchasing power list you know i think we're speaking years in advance here um you know then where where is the dollar in well bitcoin's traded against the dollar right of course um you know so i'm kind of going off on a tangent here but the future of define and unit of measure uh accounting is is something to

keep a note of in in everything that we kind of think about so i think james brought up a great point about the the time horizon and how that kind of affects your perspective on why you might use a stable coin and then to that effect you have some goal set and then you want to accomplish that um with the stable coin that you're using and then you you might be attracted to different ones for different reasons so if we look at kind of you know since stable coins have existed i'd say since tether pretty much was was one of the first ones you know it pretty much was for onboarding or at least having a synthetic type of a us dollar in a cryptocurrency so that you it was ease of transaction um and then you know it became well are they proof of reserves and and

whatever you wanted to make sure that that money was actually there but now we're kind of evolving to the standpoint where it's it's a stable coin for a different reason kind of more of an inflation hedge rather than just ease of access for dollars on a blockchain and i think that's starting to shape how these stable chlorines are viewed and which ones are more popular and just more more used you know up until this point it's been tethered and it's been usdc that kind of have dominated the us or the the stable coin market because people wanted that ease of access but now we're looking at some of these other stable coins as different versions of preserving uh purchasing power and you know andy you mentioned a a

couple of the the popular ones right now that aren't necessarily tied to the us dollar but they're tied to a different measure of purchasing power um you know getting away from like cpi as a measure of inflation you know there's a bunch of different ways to track it you know an index of commodities or you know what whatever you want to base your coin on um and i think that is stretching the time horizon a little bit further and you know once we're we're able to kind of understand um like okay this is the cryptocurrency uh you know demographic right or just kind of what what the population looks right now

it's a matter of preserving purchasing power within that demographic and if we stretch that even further you know rather than different commodities or different things to point to in terms of uh the traditional economy we can look at bitcoin as kind of that future long-term winner as um something that is is able to preserve purchasing power the best um opposed to a lot of different other measures of uh what we can point to so i think it's interesting as kind of we evolve around this narrative it's gone from a us dollar stable coin to now a purchasing power stable coin

to eventually maybe bitcoin replacing that as kind of the most stable asset or the one that can best preserve purchasing power yeah absolutely um yeah i think i think generally it's like i don't see it as like an either or scenario we've seen recently that um uh the visa is going to allow it's gonna allow usdc payments um and settle on ethereum i mean that's huge and i think that there's going to be kind of certainly my view is that d5 won't just be a this parallel financial system like the financial system will actually rebuild on open open protocols and i think that we'll

definitely see um just usd and other currencies being uh being used on on open blockchains um and potentially even central bank digital currencies somehow interacting with open blockchains in something in some way um but then i think just given the decentralized uh nature of this technology we'll also see a huge amount of innovation in creating these kind of off-peg currencies that are able to retain purchasing power but not be pegged to a certain nation-states um fiat currency and i think that generally just actually creates a pretty

interesting political dynamic in the world that we haven't seen in a long time where there are these kind of um currencies that aren't aren't associated with with countries um so it'll be pretty interesting to see how how that plays out and how governments react to that it begs so many questions of what the hell do we do because we've never experienced this before and wow it's moving fast and i mean there's like so many things happening here right like we started with kind of rates and yield and kind of this um uh capitalistic kind of view of making money in d5 we can get to the philosophical and the

and the political and it feels like there's so much room for for people to uh come in here and have a place to basically make an impact that's definitely one of the things that i like the most about being here uh in d5 this ability to kind of just feel like uh there's an impact to be made and there's a future to be shaped that's what you're doing with and stable right so talk to us a bit about some of these upgrades that you guys have coming up uh specifically these feeder pools um you know i'm not sure that our audience understands what that is um and kind of you know if i'm looking to earn some yield with with these feeder pools right like what is a feeder pool and you know what's going on there uh yeah yeah cool thanks um yeah so all this discussion about stable

coins it's pretty clear that the future of stable coins is is is going to be really interesting and there's going to be a lot of innovation that happens and countries are going to generate their own uh different regulated energies are going to create their own different decentralized projects will create their own even even their own pegs um a lot of different assets will move on chain like gold uh so we kind of approached themselves saying how can we build infrastructure for this environment um and what we what we thought would be really useful is to create a mechanism to unify these disparate these disparate pegged assets so instead

of just having for five usd stable coins we can create a meta-stable coin called musd that is backed by all of these different stable coins and if a new one comes out we can add that into the pool um if one single coin doesn't seem so good anymore it can be taken out and so we kind of create this future-proof meta-stable coin and we can do it across every kind of peg and these so that's been like pretty good and and we've been able to get as we've spoken about before really good yields by by creating certain capital efficiencies with that collateral

um but the next phase of ventanal's growth is to create uh these separate trading pools that link into the core uh what we call m asset uh m asset smart contract so as an example we have musd which is backed by dye susd um uh usdc and usdt so that they're the assets that are under underlying musd um musd holders don't necessarily want to just keep adding all the new stable coins that come out all the time as collateral

to this to their meta-stable coin because that creates certain risks uh and it's also not very efficient to do that so what we're implementing are these pools that are that kind of sit up alongside the core m asset pool and enable trading between them so we can have for example musd busd as a pool and then users can trade busd for usdc and then the m asset is just in between those two so we can way to think about it is kind of like a solar system the m the m asset musd is at the center and then we have these other pools

around that uh around that center and they all can kind of be traded amongst each other um uh so yeah generally it'll it'll create the possibility of any asset to be added to m stable um it'll mean that the m assets that are generated it actually go back on to m stable so we generate musd from from the pool but that that musd will go back onto m stable so it should have some really nice circular um effects on on pdl it'll increase trading uh trading fees uh which we're excited about um and and save apy um and yeah so the first two pools will be

gusd musd um and uh busd and usd um so they'll be incentivized by meta um our token um and uh yeah expect to see a lot more pools to come out um in the very near future sweet so basically from for for those who are kind of trying to put the head around where the musd token gets its uh its value its legitimacy it's it's effectively a basket of other stable coins which have proven through i guess through the lindy of you know that they've been around for quite a bit um and so the musd stable

coin is now able to uh have its value and become more liquid kind of like how like the three curve pool has you know their three pools uh it's kind of a similar uh aspect of of this basket uh which creates musc um and so basically these these feeder pools create more liquidity uh for musc as a as a token pair um if i'm not mistaken and basically the incentive here uh to create this liquidity is uh through the mta token uh through the reward distribution yeah and also the trading fees that that those pools generate um so you'll have the kind of a zero and permanent losses stable coin stable coin so usd

the price doesn't change um but you can yield farm the meta token and also earn all the trading fees that that generates we'll also be lending out the uh the assets in that pool so it should be a really healthy apy um and we have some uh proposals in the pipeline where other projects are saying hey we want to create these theta ports too so we'll put for example as a project called arc x that have a stable coin stable x they want to put stable x and m usd into a feeder pool and they'll incentivize it with the arc x token and we'll do it with the mta token um so we could see some really nice uh double incentives um uh coming out and and then down the track people will be

able to create these pools independently just like on uni swap um so you can create just a stable coin pool and then we'll also create the ability to trade across assets as well so you can go from any usd asset to any bitcoin asset um really efficiently yeah i saw that down btc yeah exactly and then further down the line um we're also looking at ways to uh enable bose uh those transfers uh to happen at zero or very low slippage um across chains or even layers so that's really good stuff more r d program has your main focus been since may of last year

is it all about the liquidity i mean obviously as much focuses but is liquidity really the name of the game when you're kind of bootstrapping a d5 protocol uh yeah so i mean it's all about product market fit just like any other um startup um and you gotta be careful with liquidity mining incentives generally because it can sometimes uh look like you've got product market fit but actually you just have these mercenary um uh liquidity miners putting on short term capital and and the token and then dump it um so you've got to look at the projects i think that have more minimal uh token incentives like uni swap for example has none um and they have 4.6 billion liquidity and

that's something something that you really um like is obviously a pretty strong signal that there's product market fit uh so we've we've definitely tried to keep the token incentives to a minimum um and we've seen kind of really good good usage across across our products particularly on the save um uh the save product um so i think i think liquidity is certainly a big a big thing um but i think it's all about um number of users uh and then there's a whole nother aspect which is governance m stable is a decentralized open protocol um that's governed by and that's

governed by metaholders so we always look at the kind of government statistics governance statistics as well so how many governors are participating in how many mta holders participate in governance how much mta is staked in order to participate in governance and you know the statistics are pretty good um last time i checked we have about 730 uh governors taking about 7.5 million meta and there's about 20 million meta circulating so you know a good a good proportion of meta estate for governance obviously other statistics are really important so we we've also had about half a billion over half of doing uh swapped

on m stable since launch um and yeah uh uh those statistics are also really important but um but yeah lots of different ways to track and june analytics is a great way of doing it and we have our analytics page on the entertable app as well yeah yeah we we've chatted with the uh the dune team and checked out their dashboards is super cool stuff um and that's a that's a great proportion you know almost a third or at least actually a a bit more than a third of um holders staking for governance um i i know we're running short up on time is there any proposals that you want to um direct some attention to and call out um or you know any upcoming

partnerships upgrades that you want to you know definitely mention to our audience yeah i mean we've got a whole bunch of things coming up um so the feeder pools are coming out uh tomorrow and that'll have some really great uh incentives um uh so you'll be able to earn uh earn meta and and the trading fees um and if you stake you actually get a boost um in the amount of meta that you earn um uh so some really big kind of token exchanges um and protocol changes are happening in the next 24 hours um we have more m assets coming out as well

and eth and m euro they'll be proposals coming out pretty soon uh generally there are just also some some kind of cool collaborations that we've been doing recently um there will be a post coming out about uh how synthetic style [Music] swapped susd for tusd um which because susd was over peg at the time um would have cost us about two hundred thousand dollars but synthetic style did it in order to get susd in the musd basket um so some like kind of interesting doubt down collaboration collaborations there and i think just the last thing is that we're also

looking for a bd we're growing we're growing really quickly and we need a uh a super smart business development manager to support us in in growing the protocol and our integration so anyone's listening who uh who thinks they might be good at that um please yeah get in touch um mstable.org you can join our discord or anything or our telegram and then just reach out there but yeah thanks for thanks for having me on as well it's been a really interesting discussion james i've got a a meta boy meme for you uh right here freshly on twitter we've got i'm not sure i'm not sure if

you guys saw the phillicone uh picture today of him in his new office with the massive keyboard and the massive uh desk set up and the monitors so what they've got is they've got all the m stable stuff on all the screens they've got the unstable metaboy head and they've got you with the heart on it in the far left james i i saw that i actually the funny thing is we i actually don't even know who that just retweeted that one um so classic yeah that's hilarious he goes hi i'm meta boy i specialize in m asset theory b acid analysis and feeder pool f assets it goes on and on that's awesome yeah

james it was a pleasure um and yeah man thank you so much for coming on it was an interesting discussion stable coins yield m stable all this stuff i mean it's it's all just so new and there's so much to explore and uh i know our audience got quite a bit of value from this one and we ought to do it again awesome um cool well yeah thanks for having me on again and uh and um uh yeah have a good rest of day thanks james yeah super cool real soon so uh we'll definitely we'll definitely keep in touch and stay on it