DeFi 2.0 Summit | Rari, Olympus, Tokemak, TracerDAO, Alchemix

Transcript

hey bankless nation welcome to the first of its kind this is not a defy 2.0 panel this is a d5 2.0 summit david what's the difference man panel versus summit what's different about this one uh it's a simple math game ryan panels have three people summits have five so we are bringing on uh everyone from uh hold on i need to get this music out of my ears let's go to mute that apologies about that okay so yeah we have brought on five of the biggest minds out from the space of these next generation of defy apps these d5 apps that have really caught a lot of the energy caught a lot of the excitement and notably are not part of the dpi which is uh why my dpi bottom call has not done so well because if these tokens

were in the dpi it would be a different story so we've got d5 pulse index here which is supposed to track which tracks like the top 15 or 20 or so d5 projects uh but this new cohort is not part of those because they're brand new projects yeah it's a new cohort new cohort and uh time uh is not linear time goes in cycles time goes in generations and this is kind of the gist that we're getting from this new cohort of defiance it's a new generation there's a certain kind of disposition there's a certain kind of construct and so we're going to unpack what all of those things are with all five of these uh different members from these different defense teams so many of these people have come onto the bankless show before actually i'm pretty sure every single person has been on

bank list before uh we've got j uh j from from robbery capital we got pat from tracer we got scoopy trouples from alcamix carson from tokamak and of course zeus from olympus dow so again perhaps the most stacked panel that bankless has ever come up with sorry not panel sir this is the summit summit not even that's pardon me pardon me absolutely and this is like i'm really excited to dive into this because i i want to hear what the panel is with the summiters what the summoners think of this entire term and how to define it because it has been in zika it's like defy 2.0 is this just a new cohort i mean scoopy triple put out a thread and said there are some patterns that are emerging around like token incentives it's been a theme we've

been uh talking about on bank list for i guess the past few weeks into into months i feel like this is kind of the the culmination of the topic where we're assembling all of the avengers to uh to talk about it together so that's what we're about to do david before we get started we have to let bankless listeners know about something cool that's going on and that is dharma has moved to polygon okay so dharma is one of my favorite smart contract wallets these guys make it super easy to go from bank account to bankless right so uh you know the process of getting into crypto can be long and arduous right you connect your bank to go to coinbase or gemini and then you somehow get the funds to metamask and then there's gas

fees involved and you're like you're in d5 seven eight steps later dharma makes it super easy particularly with uh polygon their new polygon integration so you can go from bank account straight to token straight to polygon in like less than 10 minutes like that's how easy this experience is and also as a little cherry on top here dharma is offering bankless listeners of which you are one fifty dollars in eth when you try this out ethan that's my favorite yeah that's your favorite money david that's my favorite money yeah there are rewards for using d5 guys right if you have if you don't know now you know airdrops rewards like this come all the time uh so check this out click the link in the show notes that will get you the

code that you'll need to use to get this bankless deal on dharma set that up on your mobile wallet as well it's just a simple app you're good to go 10 minutes give it a try 10 minutes or less it's a wormhole from your bank account into defy all right ryan i think we're ready to go ahead and get right into the show and i've come up with a name for who these who these uh people are if you're if you're on a summit you are a mountaineer so we are going to get into these five mountaineers who are exploring the frontier of d5 2.0 in just a moment after we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible the era of proof-of-stake is upon us proof-of-stake systems like ethereum terra and solana allow the industry to move away from the hot loud and wasteful

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under three minutes at gemini.com go bank list and if you trade more than a hundred dollars within the first 30 days after sign up you'll be gifted a free 15 bitcoin bonus check them out at gemini.com go bankless all right guys we are back with our mountain ears of defy 2.0 we got jay on the left jay from rory we got carson in the center carson from tokamak we got scoopy on the right scooby from alchemics we got patrick in the top right corner clocking in from tracer dow and last but not least we got zeus from olympus dow here on the bottom of the screen guys thank you for all showing up for this fantastic defy 2.0 summit thanks you all for being here we are

spanning the globe we have the globe surrounded uh and we also have defy surrounded as well so thank you guys for all showing up all right guys uh let's start with uh jay jay since we i named you first jay what the hell is d5 2.0 in your own words yeah that's a good question i feel like we see so many different definitions floating around but i think to me what dfi 2.0 really represents is is a movement beyond the traditional right i feel like defy 1.0 was about replicating what we saw in traditional finance putting that into d5 and d5 2.0 is about shaping these these products even taking the 1.0 and thinking about them from a d5

perspective and what does that mean and what are the innovations we see it's thinking about liquidity differently thinking about things like pcv and reserves in a totally different way it's about thinking about all of these like tokenomics themselves thinking about thinking about defy and all these products from first principles perspectives with define notions in mind thank you for that jay and turning into a patrick from tracer patrick what do you what do you think about d5 2.0 what does d5 2.0 mean to you well it's it's certainly not 1.0 and uh not quite yet 3.0 so somewhere in between the two um i think

one one signal of what d5 2.0 has sort of evolved into is uh the fact that five of us are here on the call who are each different contributors to different projects uh there's an incredible social layer that's forming between different dow communities um and treasury interactions particularly as well you've got sort of hundreds of millions of dollars uh within these dow treasuries and and you're now seeing incredible tools um being produced by uh protocol developers that are within this call that um allow treasuries to to utilize these funds and and earn yields and inter-operate amongst one another um but as well as that i suppose your 1.0 you had some fewer primitives that were built with respect to lending

with respect to exchange uh a few derivative primitives and um i think d5 2.0 you're seeing native applications that are built plugging into some of those uh core primitives that that allow users to do um really particular things and and i think alcomix is an incredible example of something like that as well as as well as tokamak so um yeah i think that's probably a decent classification of what 2.0 could could mean to me is what you're saying that d5 2.0 is just generally a lot more collaborative than the applications that we've seen previously i think so yeah and i think there's also this element of permissionlessness as well um with respect to like market creation uh something that that defy is is going to usher in is this cambrian

explosion of new markets uh driven by like oracle infrastructure as well as just innovative new um algorithmic stable coins or or any type of function that you can encode within these smart contracts i think there's that element where developers can come in and leverage existing code bases to be creative and and create new financial tools that that produce value for the for the uh the economy and ecosystem that are large fantastic scoopy turning to you next what does defy 2.0 mean to you anything you want to add on to what patrick and jay had to say i'm just gonna be yeah piggybacking onto them a little bit here so i think it to me it represents three things one is sort of like yeah building on the previous layer of applications and

having like uh increased uh composability and capital efficiency as a result of it um you know like alchemics how our deposits aren't doing anything or they're they're not just you know sitting there they're going in the urine and making yield um things like that uh you know abracadabra does that as well and i think you're seeing more and more like treasuries do this with their their uh their assets as well is that they're they're not they're not leaving them idle um so another thing i think is the liquidity dynamics for protocols instead of relying uh solely on yield farming there are now like uh you know alternative ways to source liquidity for your protocol uh whether that's through

like olympus pro and you know uh like an ownership model of liquidity or something more like a tokamak where it's a much more like efficient like market-driven like rental of liquidity um i think those are some some pretty big innovations uh as far as the d5 2.0 stack and then the other thing is like sort of like dow treasuries um becoming like firms in and of themselves um where they're not just like you know just sitting there they're they're doing things like um you see a lot of them are now tapping into uh the power of like rare refuse um and they're they're starting their own markets for their their coins and they're they're kind of doing some really cool and innovative things

um as a result of that um and it's not just limited to that but you know there's lots of different things like if you look at fracs like they have these algorithmic uh market operators um and they mint and and burn the supply of fracks and put it into various markets and then with that like uh extra supply fracks and the liquidity tokens they go out and then they're farming with those and making more money for the protocol and i think it's like just a really cool way to see you know like dows evolve and becoming like active market participants and investors i think that's pretty cool zeus with everything that's been said so far anything that these people have missed anything you want to add on to the conversation of what d5 2.0 is

yeah i mean obviously everyone's really like you know covered all the good stuff but uh no i think that like you know the 1.0 is these like crucial infrastructural uh primitives that got built and then you know this new wave is kind of leveraging those um kind of with this focus on like strong communities building strong protocols in my opinion so it's a little bit less focused entirely on the user side of things and how do we get like you know people to come in here and use this and you know lp for it and whatever and more on you know how do we build a strong protocol that has longevity and is going to like you know persist along with us um one other thing that i think it kind of symbolizes the shift

towards is you know along with that this shift from like b to c models to b to b models where you're i think that we're going to see a lot more protocol to protocol uh activity whereas previously it was very constrained i think you know all the most part for protocol 2 end user fantastic zeus and carson last but not least the uh the hardest hardest roll of all particular coming in in last after everything's already been said but carson what do you think about defy 2.0 anything that these uh fellow members of the uh the summit has missed yeah so i think everyone got it totally right i would agree with everything that said so far not surprising giving given uh who the cohort is within this summit um but maybe just a couple of things to layer on so i think of dfi 2.0 and not

necessarily something that is defined or not necessarily as a thing but more moment in time and i think then within that zeitgeist there's there's certain sort of themes that you can come up with and i would agree with everything that that's been said so far a few things later on would be i consider defy 2.0 at the moment sort of being the protocols that extend value or increase utility of other dows so there's a sort of shift in mindset from how do we maximize the value internally just for my dao into how do we unlock the most utility and value for other dows and then indirectly or as a corollary from that increase the value of our own i think a lot of these things take deep by 1.0 uh primitives and build on top of them and i think there's this strong kind of

focus on uh getting to sustainability so really focusing on uh the dao as this and living breathing entity and how you can get to sort of a self-sustaining dao moment uh some of us call it singularity but again a lot of this goes into a shift from hey it's not just thinking about tvl uh or or um you know basically rented liquidity into a platform but rather what's what are your protocol controlled assets or protocol controlled value look like maybe two more things to say on this i think defy 1.0 was largely for users i think dfi 2.0 is largely for dows not at the expense of the users but dows are a significant user of deep defy 2.0 and i also think just the common theme here the community was brought up that's very strong it's really all about

collaboration and building bridges um between protocols uh between dows and i think we're going to see that um only uh get more and more so as we go forward wow carson rising to the challenge of taking the hardest spot with a fantastic answer i really like everything you guys have said and the gist i've gotten so far is that uh it's all about collaboration and where defy 1.0 didn't have a layer of d5 to build upon d5 2.0 does and so d5 1.0 had to go after the users that was the only thing but dfi 2.0 doesn't have to go after users it now has d5 1.0 to actually go after and in this era of of collaboration it's also worth noting that a lot of the projects that each of you represent are integrated with other

people's projects uh so i think there's just the the collaboration is evidenced by uh just the collaboration that we see on here on this summit um so now i'm going to throw to ryan to take the next question yeah so i guess maybe and we'll start with carson this time because i think that's only fair um but but but actually carson this this might be a trickier question because i want to take the the other side of this nasa's question right from from somebody who's a bit skeptical about defy 2.0 i really loved how you defined it as like hey maybe this is a moment of time maybe this is just about a a generation of d5 builders and kind of what they're doing at this point in time but anytime we have a new generation of builders that are doing

things differently sometimes the previous generations raised some eyebrows right and they start to question because i think part of what d5 2.0 is doing is it's kind of questioning or at least it is um building with different assumptions than some of the blue chip d5 1.0 assumptions have built on um one of the charges or one of the criticisms to d52.0 is like guys you guys are playing with fire some risk look doing perpetuals uh i mean what patrick and trace are doing in d5 that's kind of risky business and we're talking uh you're talking scooby about like um collaboration and capital efficiency and

using all of the other uh primitives but doesn't that build compounding risk right smart contract risk stacked on top of smart contract risk and uh jj talking about like permissionlessness that sounds fantastic but like ave and maker there's a reason governance exists and uh that reason is kind of a check and balance to make sure that um assets aren't getting deposited into these contracts that are that are you know uh too risky right or the entire system can collapse so uh you know i haven't even addressed you so the other panelists but let's talk about it but i could yes uh let's talk about some of these maybe these criticisms or or even call them

sort of trade-offs or some of these things warranted uh what's your take carson is like you know some people might go even as far as to say hey you know d5 2.0 is not really a thing it's just this new set of set of protocols that are taking you know new risks and i i it's just an extension of defy what are your take about what what's your take on all of those things we'll start with carson yeah i can jump in so and i agree this is a good question and a tough question um so i think i think it's sort of a natural evolution like i don't think there's anything um if you're playing if you've been playing through um through the d5 ecosystem over the last year or two i don't think there's too much that's

being built here that's overly surprising um maybe the first time you hear it but then i think kind of in retrospect probably um you know all five of the great projects that are represented on on this summit um like it just seems sort of obvious like okay yeah that's smart now that doesn't mean that it doesn't introduce risk to your point i think i think the the thing you have to weigh here is sort of what you unlock and i'll maybe just talk uh for one second on tokamak only because that's the one of course i'm most familiar at but i sort of think a d5 2.0 as a lot of these things not not in every case this is again it's sort of undefinable but in most of these cases it's something that couldn't exist without the previous set of d5 protocols so in the case of tokamak if we we are

not an exchange we don't want to be in exchange um there's always the underlying amm so at launch it's sushi swap unit swap 0x balancer we'll be adding more over time so you can really think of like a natural evolution of this was great we have a decentralized coinbase right which was uniswap sushi swap how do we have a decentralized jump trading how do we have the decentralized uh liquidity provider and market uh market maker sort of the the thing that um controls the flow and is sort of the puppeteer of liquidity into those venues and so if you think about it like that certainly this introduces um sort of uh risk up at that higher level um but you unlock a ton by sort of evolving beyond just just being reliant on on centralized um uh trading firms and market makers and interestingly they can

still plug into this in a way that actually can help their business as well which is too detailed for this discussion i'm sure but the point is there's gonna be risk at these higher levels you still have the inherent risk of the under of sort of the underlying ones and in some cases you have what i'll call emergent phenomena risk or like integration risk with some of these things but i actually think in general that's not where most of the the risk comes from it's really trying to understand the inputs outputs of each of these protocols whether it's at the d5 1.0 layer or 2.0 layer and and just trying to mitigate those things and absolutely i think we probably need to get into a more advanced sort of system-based approach probably to um audit and risk assessment that isn't just limited to a single protocol but

rather how it sort of uh interacts with other protocols so let's talk about that a bit more and maybe i'll direct this to scoopy since you kind of brought up the idea of defy 2.0 being all about uh composability i i remember back in the day like a couple years ago uh anytime that david and i tried to talk about money legos in d5 when everything was so early right we inevitably you'd see a maximalist meme of some sort saying not money legos money jenga right and they they depict everything sort of you know falling down and tumbling in on itself but but talk about this risk because we have talked about smart contract uh you know the the compounding risk of smart contracts stacked up

on top of smart contracts so scoopy what's your take on that are we adding a whole bunch of risk into d5 systemically by building on top of all of these um these additional protocols well i think that whole moneylength lego versus money change like comparison is very fair and i think you know out there in d5 there are so many legos that are very solid and secure and there are some money jengas which might not be good things to build on top of um and as far as like alchemics goes like the reason we we we were with urine uh why we chose uranus because they have a very good reputation they have an amazing dev team and devops team and they're there to support you and all

sorts of stuff like that um and we we could have gone with a different yield aggregator but we chose urine because you know we wanted to make sure that you know the underlying stuff in alchemics didn't break um in alchemyxv2 we're going to be adding different strategies different yield providers and stuff like that but for every single strategy that we are going to be including it's going to have to go through a very rigorous audit um i know that if you incorporate you know yield bearing tokens from another protocol and you don't catch you know some little tiny detail in their code then it could lead to some you know disastrous consequences so as a result we have to take a very very security first uh you know like approach when it comes to building uh with these lego

blocks so we can ensure that we build it intelligently so we don't have this you know this tower fall over and collapse on us um but yeah i mean there's no getting around it like even with every single precaution and you know you know you know like putting in safeguards in your adapt to to mitigate any kind of uh you know risk or disastrous effect there is still going to be an increase of risk the higher you go up the stack you know that that's just a matter of fact you know if you know since we're building on dying and building on urine and stuff like that so like if something happens to die like we're you know that's bad for us so something happens here and that's bad for us so you know it's it's it's about choosing the the best

protocols to build with at that point to make sure that you're not you know going to you know make a a money jenga tower jay our our summoners our mountaineers so far have uh kind of talked about the risk and definitely acknowledged the risks but i think what they're also saying is the rewards exceed the risks the rewards of this innovation what we might find on the other side once we unlock these things what's your take on that do you think the rewards exceed the risk um give us give us the pitch for these new methods yeah i i agree with everything that has been said so far i think it's it's the cost of innovation right it's like d5 2.0 is moving at light speed compared to d5 1.0

for a variety of different reasons a part of it is risk tolerance right we're able to ship contracts much faster we're able to move much faster than a lot of these older projects and yes that means there is smart contractors guess that means that there is market risk that there's risk of all sorts of factors at the end of the day it's what's going to need to happen if we want to innovate in this industry right somebody's going to need to be pushing the bounds be pushing into these risky areas and yes people will lose money and that's going to be extremely unfortunate we need to do our best to educate users on the risks of these protocols but at the end of the day it's going to be a small a small blip in history compared to the innovation that's about to happen zeus what would you add to uh to all of

this that's been said so far about kind of the the risk reward of d5 2.0 yeah i mean i really just think it's in the nature of innovation that you know inherently you know uh with innovation and you know the reward that comes with that you have risks attached to it i think a really important thing is just insulating as much of that risk as possible so it's not generally the best case scenario that you can have is that something fails but it doesn't affect anything else if that's the case then you as depositor user of that you know you're hit but you should have known the risk that you're taking on being involved in that and no one else kind of gets hurt i think that one of the actually like the really good things about d5 is the fact that things can be very insulated um so

not always and generally or definitely like you know die is one of them that you know is pretty entrenched kind of everywhere but for for a large part you know things stay pretty separate um i also think that it's just kind of a matter of time when it comes to like these becoming new uh you know building blocks is that you know we as an industry generally do take time to just wait and see okay is this thing going to fail um i don't want to build on that as my own project if i think that it's going to fail or there's some high risk that it does because then i'm also hurt um and so you know this is the reason that we can look at a lot of these like 1.0 primitives and like you know they're they're safe or we have have a collective belief that

they're safe um just because they've been around for a long time they haven't failed and that inspires confidence um i think that that's generally the best way to mitigate risk is just to take it one step at a time and not rush into things um you know let things kind of arise observe them make sure that they're safe and solid and then you can start to utilize them and you know build up the stack patrick i want you to weigh on in on this too um obviously perpetuals are much more complicated um you know pr protocol in in project than than many that that we've we've built in kind of the d5 1.0 world um does that complexity weigh on you or why is now the time to kind of lean into these more complex financial instruments in d5

yeah look i think uh it's always been a fundamentally risk-taking uh space since since its inception like the early early ethereum developers developing the first smart contracts um you saw what happened with the dao um and and everything in between now and then there's continually been risk that's existed within within d fire or ethereum and the blockchain industry more generally but alongside that you've seen incredible security auditing companies emerge alongside um the growth of tvl you've seen insurance protocols emerge to to provide um erc 20 credit default swaps like risk harbor incredible incredible protocol shout out to them

who are supporting tracydow at the moment and with that with those further steps and more energy and more attention within the space to me at least it doesn't feel like it's taking more risk than the first dow smart contract developers were taking um it's it's continually just building upon what we've got in terms of the foundation and of course there's going to be some some shoddier parts of the foundation that crumble as more pressures put on them but continually over time and and this is why we're here this movement will become more fundamental and and the foundations will continue to build to provide financial financial transaction support into the future one of the favorite quotes that uh i believe amin solomoni one of my heroes

in this space said about smart contracts risk is it's kind of like the steam engine uh it blows up a bunch of times and then at some point we figure it out and it just works uh and overall defy has been blowing up less and less and less over time and we've kind of been figuring out this whole smart contract thing and maybe uh hopefully in five ten years from now we're just looking back on like oh yeah remember when we didn't know about how to do smart contracts that was that was a fun time when everything blew up along the way so i want to move into our next question here uh and framing this question under jeff bezos quote uh your margin is my opportunity what about defy 1.0 has been left on the table that the project that you guys all represent has been able to

grab what did defy 1.0 not do that gives you room for you to build your defy 2.0 app and we'll go in and reverse this time and start with patrick from tracer uh patrick how is tracer what did tracer grab that was on the table that d5 1.0 left yeah so we're we're probably an interesting hybrid between what you might consider a 1.0 primitive and and 2.0 um trace it out right now with our perpetual pool contracts um we're simply just leveraging chain link oracle infrastructure and and not interoperating with with any other smart contract at the base layer uh right now um so i think for us the the opportunity and and the opportunity that we've seized is um in providing leveraged tokens for the d5 economy

so we've got non-liquidatable leveraged tokens and perpetual pools enable you to not have to set up a margin account it's a it's very simple experience for people that understand the concept of leverage but but don't want to go through the complexity of trading a perpetual swap contract can can mint a token and then utilize it within uniswap utilize it within other um other d5 primitives to to trade these erc20s so this is this is where we've we've ventured into with with tracer to start off and uh it's something we're continually excited about growing jay let's turn to you people often talk about rari as a super set of compound in ave where it doesn't actually formalize specific assets that lets you do all of

them is that what uh what uh rari has really brought brought for taken from the table of d5 1.0 or what else is in addition to that what else is there to say yeah that's exactly it i think that the big thing is before you had these token holders telling you what you can and can't borrow which is just like the new version of banking regulation whatever you want to call it permitting collateral right you have to go lobby to the token holders in the same way they have to go lobby to whoever it is in traditional finance and we said that's not fair let's enable any token as collateral and you can pick who you want to govern your pool right if you want the omis to govern your pool you can have them govern your pool if you trust tetra node more you can have him govern

your pool and enable not only just the the lending and borrowing of really any asset but the the the administrative the administrative controls to anybody who you are comfortable with that's a pretty spicy take jay i want to maybe dig into that first second here but like you were equating kind of like um token holders basically you know governance forms as another form of uh gatekeeping for assets right and you think it's a more open world to to not have those gatekeepers in between just let the market decide that's what you're saying right yeah i mean like like how how i'd like to think about it is before uni swap right i feel like a lot of new entries have come into crypto there was radar relay in idex right and radar relay had

a permissioned listing of assets and it was completely taken over by uniswap because it was more efficient you could have any assets you wanted and i think we're seeing the same thing happen with fuses is compound and avail they're the radar relay right they're going to continue trying to iterate in the ways that they can but it's like it's inevitable for the liquidity to migrate over to a product like fuse do you think that's a that's a that's a trend in general do you think that um permissionless will always out-compete you know permissioned versions of the same thing or do you think it's going to happen more on the long tail i think it will always win the one exception being how institutions and regulation plays a role into it and i think that's something that we're still

seeing play out um obviously like ave has their institutional product compound has theirs once once we start seeing usage if we start seeing usage then we'll know what what the play there is but until then why bother we'll focus on d5 natives the d gens and everybody in between and then we can worry about those guys i know you didn't mean this but i think this is hilarious that you called like a bajillion people inside of defy as the next bankers because they're gay the token holders are gatekeeping the permissions it's it's a great take and it's uh i think it's it's one of those really nice takes that uh uh it's jarring right and actually makes people rethink about what it means to actually build a defy app um great take uh carson let's go to you what about defy 1.0 was left on the table that tokamak was able

to capture yep um so what i'll say that d5 1.0 left on the table they didn't have a choice in leaving it on the table so the the beautiful thing about d5 2.0 is we're past the bootstrapping phase and what i mean by that is defy 1.0 was really bootstrapping users and bootstrapping capital and all these different protocols um that chose to use a token essentially separated users from their product with a token which meant they lived and died by liquidity what that meant was they needed to secure liquidity because our sort of thesis is that in web 3 value flow is replacing the data flow in web 2 and therefore liquidity is the in the bandwidth of the system so they needed to pay for that liquidity and of course that came via inflation so these liquidity mining

emissions is really the thing that we're tapping into um with tokamak we realize that protocols need liquidity it's not just about liquidity is not about traders and investors like it is traditional finance it's about users and protocols since different uh tokens of value need to be swapped for others and therefore um that was really the signal that we we went after with tokamak was how do we both increase liquidity um within the ecosystem while at the same time reducing the cost to dows for securing that liquidity and in fact even getting to an inversion of economics so that dows can actually earn while securing liquidity really profit from their own liquidity um as opposed to always be paying for it this is something i i want to jump in on

what you said carson because i think this is also a paradigm shift for people right you said liquidity is bandwidth which is super interesting so most people when they think about like crypto bandwidth they're they're talking about maybe transactions per second or something like this but like we on bankless have talked a bit more about like something called economic bandwidth right and this fits this idea of liquidity as bank as bandwidth and so what you're doing at toca tokamak are you basically a a bandwidth provider are you some sort of an isp i suppose web 3 bandwidth yeah yes that's that's exactly it's a it's a great way to put it and that's exactly how we think about it we think of this as infrastructure and and really a

liquidity utility so if liquidity is is the new bandwidth then what tokamak is trying to usher in is the broadband moment for d5 and really all of web3 for that liquidity bandwidth um put another way we sort of think of multiple layers to the infrastructure to go a little deeper on this you've got electricity you've got the internet running on top of that you have blockchains including ethereum running on top of that and then on top of that you need liquidity and that of course is doesn't just mean from tokamak liquidity is a more generalized concept but tokamak is sort of one example of a broadband access to that liquidity and the reason we think of all those as infrastructure is just like on this call if any of us drop if the battery in our in our uh laptop dies or if any of us drop

internet access we drop them the call similarly nothing works in d5 with zero liquidity and so that's why we think of it as infrastructure it's a great take i'm loving the metaphors big fan of the metaphors all right let's take this one to zeus zeus what about defy 1.0 left cool stuff on the table that olympus was able to capture yeah so just uh real quick i want to tag on to carson's thing there that's really good because i super strongly agree i my own saying is uh like i think of it as liquidity rails of the new railroads um you know so this kind of crucial trainer uh what's the word i'm looking for transportational uh system that you know is kind of required for this commerce within d5 um in terms of what 1.0 left behind i i

think it's that they go for very high volume low margin businesses um so these are you know kind of at least when we're thinking about the blue chips it's you know very high capital uh [Music] like startup requirement there's an actual phrase there that i'm blanking on um you know and kind of these low margin businesses like if you look at uniswap they don't even take a fee sushi swap you know it's basis points um you know pretty much across the board same goes for lending protocols and you know 2.0 is kind of the shift into uh you know pushed into these more new things that you can build on top of that where you can take higher margins and kind of you know accrue more value um because you don't need to build up and incentivize billions of liquidity or

you know service uh other users of your protocol that you know that have low margins as well and so they can't really afford if you're taking a higher fee um so yeah it's these like important products but you know they don't accrue a crazy amount of value back to the the protocol that facilitates them do you think that's going to be a trend moving forward where what we are building in d5 trends towards higher and higher uh margin uh just products um i mean i i see it as kind of what innovation brings in so i feel like over like the the natural courses that margins trend towards zero or towards some uh minimum viable margin at which point you know the protocol can't really

sustain itself anymore and the activity dies off um but that you know uh existing products and ideas will mar or kind of uh you know merge towards that minimum viable margin and then you know innovation will always create higher margin businesses that then be the same fantastic all right scoopy you've been uh patiently waiting scoopy what about defy 1.0 left money on the table that defy 2.0 was able to grab for alchemics we just saw this opportunity because we saw all this yield being generated and we're like hey what can we do with with you know yield as a derivative and you know what we came up with was

basically a way for you to uh save your money and spend it at the same time without the mix so you can just like keep all your your principal uh tokens like earning yield and then you can borrow off of that and then have your yield pay off your debt and that that's something that we would need these uh you know 1.0 primitives to make in order for outcomes to work and you know we were surprised like before alchemics launched in the months running up to it uh we were like oh man it's how we gonna do this is someone can do this is this is this andre's credit yeah why credit thing you know is it is it this is it that and we we were that's why we're in stealth mode in such a hurry to launch because we thought somebody else would run with

this idea before we did um so i think it's just uh you know we we just saw you know the cool things that we could build uh from the people you know all the d5 1.0 stuff and then we we took it and we ran with it and we we needed you know an amm like sushi stuff we also need another amm like curve for for our stable assets um and then we also needed yo aggregator so we just had to you know kind of combine and compose you know what was out there in order to build what we wanted to build guys this uh this summit has already been super uh mind expanding mind-blowing for me a couple takeaways talking about defy 2.0 primarily servicing other dows is super interesting to me d5 2.0 is being just a moment of time in

time this idea that liquidity is bandwidth uh so much good insight is being dropped right now and uh if you are listening right now make sure you hit subscribe on your notifications so that you can get more of these live streams in your inbox you know about them first so hit subscribe on youtube right now guys we are not done with this summit though when we come back we're going to be talking about d5 2.0 even a bit more broadly in fact the question of what's next is there a defy 3.0 in store is that what's next and what generally is the bull case for d5 what's all of this going to culminate in and what's it going to mean so stay tuned for that but for now we want to thank the sponsors that made this

episode possible bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the unit swap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and will say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to

the una swap dow apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap tao no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer unit swap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get uniswop to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless the ave protocol is a decentralized liquidity protocol on ethereum which allows users to supply and borrow certain crypto assets ave version 2 has a ton of cool features that makes using the ave protocol even

more powerful with ave you can leverage the full power of d5 money legos yield and composability all in one application on ave there are a ton of assets that you can supply to the protocol in order to gain yield and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have supplied collateral here you can see me borrowing 200 usdc against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens in eth i'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option but i could choose the stable interest rate option if i wanted to lock in that interest rate in permanently v2 also features the ability for users to swap collateral without having to withdraw their assets trade them on unit

swap and then deposit them back into ave with ave users can do this in one seamless transaction saving you time and gas costs check out the power of ave ave dot com that's aave dot com hey guys we are back with our d5 2.0 summit this has already been an extraordinary conversation with our five panelists we're going to get right to the meat of this discussion starting with this question i've been super curious about how this defy 2.0 trajectory we're on is going to shape the course of of d5 in the future and also the question of what's next is there like a d5 3.0 in store um where are we moving into and what are we evolving and what's coming down the

the the pike i want to start this question with uh maybe zeus get get some of your insights i know with uh olympus pro you guys are have lots of conversations open with many different protocols um what is happening in the d5 2.0 world how is it changing the trajectory and what's next is there a d5 3.0 that we should be looking forward to that's that's coming on the horizon yeah um so first kind of touching on the last thing there like i do just want to throw out that i'm not a big fan of the name um i think that it means that we've kind of learned something from apple maybe um when it comes to like you know branding and stuff but i i don't really see this as you know i feel like that inherently kind of

uh points to a fork or some kind of separation between you know this new cohort and the old one really you know we're standing on the shoulder to giants um you know we are leveraging our predecessors and you know using them for what they're meant to be uh you know it just kind of bumps me out in that i don't want to to you know feel like we're just kicking them to the curb and like you know y'all are irrelevant now no it's like you're still very relevant um can i just pause and ask the other panelists if they feel that way too so it's like we know we didn't actually ask the question right about like do you like the name defy 2.0 because i'm not convinced that um that i like it yet either but with memes it's not always the meme that you want to win it's just

the meme that that sticks right who like who on the panel likes the term d5 2.0 and who actually has some qualms with it so zeus said he had some qualms anyone else with some qualms on uh the term defy 2.0 patrick you look like you want to speak yeah i just think there's there's there's no clear place where um d5 1.0 has stopped and and d5 2.0 has begun um carson's characterization of a moment in time is probably somewhat apt but i think there's characteristics in there that that that we're seeing that weren't experienced a couple of years ago in the d5 economy um particularly around around those ideas that we've discussed of dows and and social communities that are forming um

so i think there's some benefit to it um although there's no sort of end and start that you can say this is when we cross the barrier in my view any other thoughts on this panelist yeah i mean i made the thread as a number of weeks ago about you know d5 2.0 i think that that started the meme uh or at least the branding of it um and i just kind of arbitrarily said that you know i before i was calling this gen 2 and just in that post i just said uh d5 2.0 and it kind of stuck and i never wanted it to be like this dividing line between you know the og protocols and you know the ones that came out in 2021 um you know i just like it kind of took

me a surprise that some people took offense to that like as if we were trying to like you know you know you know kind of throw the the ogs to the side but that wasn't it i think it's is you know it's as much uh it's it's as meaningful as saying something's a blue chip it's just like a name that people subscribe to and that's it you get to actually look at each protocol like you know you know as an individual thing and not just try to lump it all together as you know blue chip or d5 2.0 or whatever yeah nice and you have thoughts i can quick uh yeah chime in as well because i'm probably i really see both sides of this i again i mentioned before that i think of it as a moment in time or or meme here and i think uh

titles whether rightly or wrongly acquired can just be helpful to help people try to wrap their head around what's going on and categorize things so i think insofar as it does that it can be helpful um but i think uh you know myself and other people on here said earlier and i agree with some of zeus's sentiment as well where like none of this was meant in an irreverent way to the giants um that we're standing on uh the shoulders that we're standing on of those giants because as i mentioned early on like a lot of this stuff really isn't possible had those people not those those innovators basically not built those and those are just as critical a piece of the stack now it's really just we have layer two of d5 now right being built on top of layer one and you still need those things just as

much so i think that's exactly right i think the right mental model is generations right i know uh people that are born officially in the zoomer generation that identify as millennials and also vice versa and going back to what pat was said and saying there is actually no clean line it's just like there's a bit of a vibe over here there's a bit of a vibe over here they're a little bit different and then also exactly what carson just said one vibe was actually explicitly built because of the first vibe um but everything is a little bit loose everything's a little bit nebulous but we do need these names to actually talk about the things that we're trying to talk about hence why we have landed on on defy 2.0 but i think everyone here is in agreement that it's not it's not one coming to delete the other it's one

building on top of the other we're all gonna make it it's it we're all gonna make it it's definitely not uh it's definitely not tribal and i'm not hearing that from any of any of the people uh you know in the summit that one is one is better than the other and who knows how long this defy 2.0 meme will actually last right it'll be useful for a time and i think it's been super useful as a mental model to just even to frame this conversation about what's new and what's unique about this new generation of protocols but will we still be talking about d5 2.0 in six months or or a year or are we gonna just be talking about something entirely new and all of this d5 stuff just smushes together i guess it remains to be seen anyway zeus we got a little sidetracked there

thank you thank you though that was a really interesting yeah so tell us more about the i guess how this changes the trajectory of things and then like what's next yeah um you know so one of the really cool things that i think can come of this is you know with this shift to more b2b activity um you know one of the things that i see in d5 is that you know as since we're we're so early in this you know no like cliche intended um you know it's still very just financial activity for the sake of financial activity um you know in constructing markets with not a lot of real world things going on uh behind it um you know it is

interesting to see like nfts in that nfts are this like virtual real world um commodity type of activity um or like virtual real world world good if that makes sense um but i think that you know with this shift towards more b2b activity we we kind of enable uh real-world funds to come into the d5 economy um start to leverage you know the the capital uh efficiency or you know innovation um innovations that you know can benefit their business um and start to utilize these for things that maybe don't have anything to really do with finance itself um you know and start to utilize capital markets for what they're meant

to be uh used for um which is generally agnostic to the market functionality itself um you know if you look at trad fi you know it's you have a lot of financial activity in this massive financial industry but it's built around things that don't exist within that financial industry um you know i i see that as you know one crucial to the long-term success of d5 um but also probably the most exciting thing that we can look forward to um you know as that proliferation start to occur jay how does d5 2.0 shape the trajectory of d5 what what does it unlock for us what does it change yeah i feel like we could talk about like mechanisms specifically in a lot of depth right stuff like pcv stuff like

new tokenomics that's being explored but at the end of the day i think what what the biggest thing about d5 2.0 is and i think zeus is the one that brought this up in the beginning of the call is community driven right it's it's like you are one with your community and what that means is it's so much more exciting right innovation is not only moving faster but you're gonna you're gonna have products that are superior in every single way so what does that mean for d5 it means a lot of different things it means that one this is going to be a really fun place to be working because you're just going to be working with a bunch of people that you like to hang out with two it because of that you're going to have better products and better better platforms for other people to

build on top of and better platforms for even the trad five bros to come in and start using one day so i i wouldn't look at it from necessarily a product point of view but almost from like a um like a community point of view and a perspective point of view and the fact that defy 2.0 is here to excite things and to change things up and do go even a step further than d5 1.0 in many ways carson what's your take what's going to be the long-term impact here what would you add yeah i think it's interesting because even though you know we talked about the pros and cons of d5 2.0 just again to be um to use it for its benefit i'm going to talk about uh d5 3.0 and 4.0 here for a second of just talking about what the next evolution of these are i think that

we will see a couple more cycles of this stuff that goes more down a dow level and sort of seems to be retreating further into defy in a sense to outside users where like the power uh the power users the power builders understand what this is unlocking on like a d to d like dow to dow or protocol the protocol level but uh you know main street is still like if they even hear about this they'd be like what's going on ultimately this is because right now we're laying laying the foundations for and i don't mean this in a bad way but laying the foundations for the new wall street and the new silicon valley in one and what really is exciting is the next phases after that which is if you think about wall street and silicon valley right now right there's a whole economy that is sort of

built up around that that's much bigger than that actually but that's enabled by that we're building those layers right now and the really exciting thing is the moment that with that we sort of um come up for air from this sort of um protocol to protocol moment and then go out to the world basically so once with the dick what i call the dichotomy the decentralized economy is there and you're starting to see glimmers of this with nfts and the metaverse gaming and gameplay um but any of these things now where you're actually building on top of what deepfi 1.0 d5 2.0 and the next few layers are eventually users are going to have no idea what's happening under the scene in fact a lot of the builders aren't going to even know know what's happening sort of under the covers it's going to be protocol the protocol

that that's using these things and instead um the interactions back with humans um are going to be at this much higher consumer level if you guys are able to build out this protocol to protocol call infrastructure this kind of this additional bandwidth this liquidity everything that you're building it just kind of hits me that man our doubts are going to be badass yeah right like i'm just saying like if you're uh trying to start a a corporation versus starting a dow how are you really going to have a chance this i think is what you're talking about in terms of getting ready for mainstream it's like by the time this is right right now it's down to doubt but it's mostly like d5 dow to d5 dao right but but by the time this

infrastructure is built out there's going to be a massive competitive advantage to launching your capital pool your entity your business your what your gate whatever you're launching on defy rather than in the traditional world is the is that a world we're moving to scoopy uh any any thoughts on this scoopy you're muted scooby might have taken a break oh sorry i was muted i agree totally uh with what you just said there i think our dowels are going to be badass going forward

like we have different ways of you know dallas can like raise funds now um and become powerful entities i mean you look at you know olympus dow and you know what they've been able to accomplish and not even a year um and you know we're seeing also new waves and waves and waves of you know olympus likes that are that are you know spawning and it's just like a giant moment of capital formation and i think what's gonna make the dows like supercharged compared to the corporations is that they're going to have like really awesome financial tools at their fingertips that they can use you know to manage their firms a lot better than they could with uh the tradify markets uh like for example uh like in alchemix v2 were you know

shameless plug here uh we're we're gonna be a lot more composable right now in v1 we lock down smart contracts uh from interacting with it but v2 we're not gonna have that restriction and then we we definitely see like uh other dows as big customers for alchemics you know if they have like you know a few million stable coins sitting around their treasury they could put them in all comics and then take out a loan right and then they can use that you know they can spend you know from their treasury while still saving you know stuff like that and i think that that's really cool that'll just be one tool that dallas can use uh going forward and and i think you know everything that we're building now in the the thousand-dollar services business and business services are gonna make it just that much more attractive

to have a doubt in the future patrick round this out for us then so we've been talking about how d5 2.0 changes the trajectory and i don't know if you have any insights on that and also any insights on what's next like what is the next cohort of builders what are they going to build i know of all the panelists i believe you guys are probably furthest along on like layer two i don't know if that's part of the story give us your thoughts here yeah sure so i think the the trajectory of d5 generally whether it's 1.0 2.0 3.0 is is somewhat inevitable in terms of just providing the foundations for future financial transactions how d5 2.0 is contributing to that it's probably accelerating that um there's there's extensibility with respect to

the value that d5 2.0 is bringing to its users by enabling them to do just different things that 1.0 i suppose didn't didn't allow but i think one thing that hasn't been touched on is around oracle infrastructure generally and how that will seep into what we now know and understand as as defy um i think the transaction costs required for the creation of new markets within the d5 environment are so low that experimentation and and so many new markets can emerge just simply based off of something like an oracle price fee uh so something we're particularly excited um for with tracer and excited to see um defy get into is is providing real world markets for people that operate within

the economy on a day-to-day basis so like we imagine a world where an uber application for example has a hedge price of fuel button now that's that's powered by a decentralized finance smart contract and you've got an oracle that's providing the price of fuel so this uber driver they can they can budget on a monthly basis for uh for their their consumption of fuel um particularly as well i think klima dowers has taken a really awesome step towards providing climate market infrastructure around around carbon markets that have traditionally been extremely um expensive to create there's a lot of bureaucracy involved there's there's a lot of plurilateral like multinational agreements that need to be formed to create

standard environmental markets but but now with secure oracle infrastructure and reliable smart contract technology if there's demand these markets can be created and facilitated around things like water around things like air markets that we haven't been able to properly define because property rights haven't haven't really existed and the information or oracle architecture hasn't been there so i think that's that's the part that we're really excited about and uh i think that's that's the the big bull case for d5 is when it really starts hitting the world and and we interact with it within our smartphone applications on a day-to-day basis it's a fantastic reminder patrick about why we are all here in d5 sometimes we get caught up in the meme coins and the

jpegs and kind of forget that like oh yeah we are actually here to to change the world and make the world a better place so thank you for for grounding us back into into reality i want to i want to tie off this conversation with a little bit of a lightning round for everyone both taking off the 2.0 hat putting on the generalized defy hat at large but also getting more granular into your specific projects as well so this lightning round question will have two parts because the question is what are you excited about but i want you to each one of you guys to answer it twice what are you excited about about generalized defy and then what about you what are you excited about about your specific project so you get each of you gets to answer the question twice one you get to answer about your own project

one you have to say something about the rest of defy uh so let's go in reverse order so patrick let's start with you uh and you kind of actually just did this but i'm gonna throw give you a second chance to do this again patrick wha what about tracer dow excites you and then also what about generalized defy also excites you in moving forward into the 20s yeah i think i didn't touch on the metaverse piece too much um but i think there's what what's getting built right now within d5 a lot around the property rights and and the financial market contracts that are being created are going to be applicable to metaverse circumstances um so something we we like to imagine and think about um within tracer is how can risk management infrastructure be applied to something like the metaverse

um i played a bit of runescape uh when i was growing up and uh remember like buying buying things such as god swords and having like pretty fluctuating prices in in the runescape in-game economy economy we like to imagine that we can provide risk management infrastructure for people that want to hedge their in-game item risk and and provide those types of tools that that sort of haven't previously existed that app developers that are creating these games can plug into to provide unique services to their users that that it's just they're plugging in code they're plugging in markets um for people to interact with on a daily basis uh so the the metaverse component is something we're particularly excited about seeing that bridge between what's

currently getting built within dfi and and how users are now interacting with these metaverse in-game economies very elegantly answering the question two birds with one stone there nice job uh scoopy what are you excited about for the future of alchemix and also what are you excited about for greater defy yeah i mean uh our version two is in audit right now so i'm super pumped about getting our version two out which is going to enable multi-collateral and multi-strategy um al assets so alliusd al-eth we're gonna have lbtc and then some a couple more surprises along the way uh so building that out you know like whenever we're able to launch that and then building it out through all next year is something that's really exciting uh to me and my

team um and also other things we want to build on top of alcoholics uh along with it um and then what's exciting me in you know the in the d5 space in the crypto space overall um the thing that at least like you know tickles my imagination the most is uh kind of like uh game fight the gaming economies and things like that so like you know just as patrick was talking about like runescape yeah i really want you know a dungeon crawler i want an mmo like you know that's built you know the blockchain back end and i want to have you know my sword and you know like that i earned you know in the game and then be able to sell it if i want to you know or buy someone else's sword and i i want that so much you know

and to be you know built on blockchain rails um so looking forward to seeing games who are you know and companies who are pushing in that direction um you know i know a lot of you know respect to axi and what they've been able to build um you know hugely respectful to them uh excited for elluvium as well it's just sort of like a pokemon game that's going to be coming out um so you know yeah i think that sector is probably you know one of the most exciting ones uh just because of the the potential of it in like you know i guess a metaverse con context or just a play to earn context i think it's just really cool and scooby do you think do d5 is like the banking layer of all of that all of these in-game economies

well i i definitely think that like you know like if we do have like a proper mmo game you know that's built on the blockchain then you're going to have like banking services inside of it like you'll go to like an ave kiosk inside of you know you know the game or something like that and i think that that would be really cool you know so you can have like you know player banks i guess rare refuse would be better because you could actually make you know like markets for you know swords as collaterals and things like that so you know i think that would be really cool crazy jay let's turn to you what about the future of rari it really really excites you and then also what about the future of defy is also gets you going yeah um ferrari specifically i think

it's it's this like idea of pursuing the maximum capital efficiency which will take various different forms over the next few months whether it be in onboarding new collateral types and really bringing this idea of super fluid collateral whether it is like setting limit orders for interest rates throughout fuse or even something as simple as a fuse 2.0 which has greater capital efficiency all these things just like in pursuit of building the most like the most efficient system that's that's what excites me um as for as for defy and zooming out from like from just ferrari and zooming out to like what what are we actually doing here i think what what's exciting is like i like just seeing new stuff right and what i'm like

not just like boring new stuff like new stuff that's defined crypto native right i feel like everybody's still rebuilding the same stuff forking the same stuff there are very few projects that really catch my eye as something that's definative the first one in fact was auger right and it's like now that we've built this way to transfer value let's let's see what else we can let's see what we can do with it that's not just like boring lending and borrowing right i think home is another great example of this um and there's so many right and it's just like what's what's some definitive crazy that we can do well this is great because uh scoopy mentioned rari and then you mentioned om so i'll just go ahead and turn to zeus here zeus what are you excited about with the future of olympus and then also

what are you excited about with the future of d5 yeah so um you know we have this migration that is rapidly approaching we're finally you know it's something not to take lightly and so we've spent a while uh you know planning it and we're finally you know getting close to wrapping up the audit and getting going on it um which has you know admittedly prevent or like posed as a bottleneck for some activities so i'm super excited for that to clear up um because i think that you can expect to to see a lot come out of that um so you know including like you know moving cross chain um at long last uh that will be nice um you know we have these new bonds and with those uh you know enable like secondary

markets for those bonds i'm so excited to to explore that so you know liquid markets on those um you know things like isolated more strategic um you know bond accumulation of assets um so i know it's just proposed that we start accumulating cvx um you know stuff kind of involved in how do we imbue olympus with you know this influence um you know to more effectively uh you know tackle its goals um and then with that kind of like see this is yet to be seen but you know what i want to see because if you're not familiar we've had like i think 70 forks in the past couple of weeks um some ridiculous number

and you know i kind of always expected that um you know that if we do well we're going to get forked what i really want to see come out of that is this industry of okay you're gonna hear here first uh i call them decentralized backed uh decentralized backed i'm forgetting my analytic or my your metaphor yeah okay decentralized backed digital currencies aka dc's um with this kind of idea that you know all of these forks call themselves a reserve currency i think that they're conflating reserve to be has reserves whereas reserve means is reserved so reserve

currency is something that's a reserve currency for other central banks and you know institutions um you know so obviously not everyone can be a reserve currency otherwise no one is reserved currency um but with that we can kind of form this new like forex market of you know these dvdc's um you know that exist in d5 and kind of can construct uh you know a much more similar to uh you know fiat currency system where you know they against each other are low volatility and low or like high stability um and through that even if you know measured against usd they're still not stable you know stability inward you know projects into stability outward that's my expectation

so i'm excited to see that play out maybe it doesn't happen maybe it does but if it does i think it should be cool well so uh db cds versus the cbdc okay that just rolls right off the tongue so you'll be happy to know that the youtube comments just blew up in forking jokes oh i'm forking [Laughter] all right carson take us home man uh king of the metaphors so far on this summit uh what are you excited about with the future of tokamak and what are you excited about with the future of defy yeah sounds good i'll jump in i don't know if i have metaphors here but i think i've got some cool things to say so just building off zeus one thing i'm pretty excited about is

linking together olympus pro bonds as a service with token mac generalized liquidity i think there's some really interesting interesting things we can unlock by pairing those things together in fact zeus and i have had some discussions uh on that topic so i'm excited to see what comes with that um other few things i'll just go rapid fire on this we're excited to evolve tokamak into what i call an any to any protocol meaning we will take tokens as liquidity on any l2 or supported chain and then the liquidity directors the holders of of a toca token can direct uh that liquidity to any venue uh on any chain so we want to quickly sort of extend to any to any um third is one that i won't say much on this call because we've been tight lipped but a lot's coming out shortly about the membrane project

you'll be hearing a lot more about that in a few months here and then last thing with regard to tokemak is one way to think about tokemak is really something that transforms tokens into liquidity or idle tokens into liquidity we are going to be in the near future expanding that to where we actually take ideas into liquidity and not start at the token we want to go actually um before something is even tokenized we wanted which sounds probably crazy but we actually have mechanics to do this where you would actually take ideas into liquidity so we're excited to evolve there um pulling back into sort of the space i'm super bullish on metaverse whether you love or hate that term and and sort of everything that's going to evolve within that economy and liquidity integration from tokamak and

broad more broadly defy into that space and i think just getting into what gets me excited about dfi i think we actually have a really interesting branding or rebranding opportunity in front of us in d5 um we've of course been calling d5 decentralized finance i think we should actually start adopting the term democratized finance um i think that that is ultimately what makes this really exciting as i think about what this will enable for individuals as this goes beyond sort of the few and goes out to the many we can start unlocking scale economics and exciting opportunities that were never accessible to the individual now that's going to be available for everyone and i think one of my bold predictions here is that in 25 years dows will replace companies because

companies cannot compete and also don't want to compete with dowse wow fantastic what a load of insights uh to end with democratized finance indeed that is another uh virtue and definition of define what we're all building towards panelists i felt the collaboration you guys talked about d5 2.0 as being collaborative the way you hand it off to one another talked about building on each other's uh projects i feel like i saw the collaboration in real time so the collaborator yeah we're not going to overuse that yeah not at all so uh anyway we appreciate you guys being with us and everything that you're building in the space so thank you i was about to call you panelists again

summiters thank you for joining us on the first ever d5 2.0 summit on bankless we appreciate it thanks for having me thank you thank you so much appreciate it bankless listeners if you're still hanging with us make sure you hit like and subscribe if you're on youtube you're watching this subscribe like so you get the notifications in the future of course gotta end with risks and disclaimers all the protocols we talked about have some degree of risk eath is risky defy is risky there is no free lunch folks you could lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you

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