Decentralized Music Platforms with Roneil Rumberg of Audius | Green Pill #74

Transcript

foreign [Music] ation what's good on the pot today we have Ron the founder of audience audience is a fully decentralized music platform so for listeners it is a open source forkable protocol that allows you to discover and to listen and support uh musical artists and if you're an artist then it's a way of building your audience and engaging with fans identifying the most important fans for you and just generally building your music career and so we talk a little bit in this episode about the history of the music industry how we've moved from these Central intermediaries that extract a lot of value to fully decentralized open source protocols that

are going to uh create a better experience for both listeners and for artists then we talk about kind of the fun of having an open data set um in Ron's case uh with audios and the musical data set of what people are listening to and with with my case having the experience of git coin what are the things that people are funding and what are the thing things that you can discover when you've got an open data set and open source algorithms that allows people to curate the projects that they care about in both things so um you know in another feature of audience that I think is important is that it's a decentralized music platform so the rules can't be changed on you as an artist so I think that's really important uh especially if you look at

the history of musical intermediaries basically taking 90 of The Upside in your musical career if you're an artist and um you know if you're a listener only routing you the the artists where where they have the most Financial upside and not the ones that are according to your taste so basically discovering and and and cataloging the opportunity space of creating a decentralized music platform with with Ron from audios on this episode and I think this is a really regen episode because art and creative work is is is something that a lot of us in this industry have a lot of familiar with familiarity with it's some the way a lot of us pay our bills and it's just

so important to get the right art in front of the right people and to do it in a way in which the intermediaries can't take all the money so um creating a more green pilled regen world if you're an artist or if you're a listener is kind of one of the themes that runs through this episode and we're not just talking about doing it for funsies audio serves 7.5 million fans a month and has 250 000 artists on it so we're doing this at scale at this point so a really fun episode I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation about audience enjoy coin shift is a leading treasury management an infrastructure platform for Dows and crypto businesses that need to manage their treasury operations every crypto our needs to manage this Treasury and coinshift offers a simple flexible and efficient multi-chain treasury management platform built on

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the planet and if you're a builder interested in refi be sure to join the build with sellout hackathon live now with a prize pool of over a hundred thousand dollars what's up Ron great to have you man hey hey great to be here Kevin so you and I were chatting at massari mainnet and got to talking about your work at audios uh so can you can you tee us off by telling us about audios totally um so so at a super high level audience is a music community and Discovery platform that uh puts the artist in control and uh that uh uh puts the artist in control is really what we see the key difference between uh you know this this way of uh sharing content building community and and a lot of the

uh tools that have sort of preceded us um and yeah the way the way we achieve that's by being fully decentralized so there's a network of uh node operators software Engineers artists fans that together cooperatively um uh uh operating this network for the benefit of of all the folks that use it but um you know also in in a lot of cases because there are ways for them to uh earn revenue from from the contributions that they're making so um so uh so yeah that's that's it at uh high level serving about um six to seven million users a month uh uh these days and around 2 250 000 artists wow that's quite a lot of scale for a

non-technical community um and I'm really excited about this design space because it feels like um artists and creative people have traditionally had like the boot of a centralized intermediary like a record label on their neck and extracting as much profits as as possible and it feels like you know for thinking that web 3 is for removing intermediaries and and channeling more value to the people who are creating then this just feels like a really fruitful Community to start I'm curious if if that's your motivation in in any way shape and form or if you have any comments on that observation yeah I think that's uh uh uh that's definitely our motivation but it's actually kind of a I I guess there's

even a a super ordinate problem to those uh specific symptoms here which I I think is that um uh uh creators in music have no control of Their audience and no agency over how they access that audience what they do with them how they're uh able to charge them for things um uh uh the uh distribution channels that exist today are um very opinionated about those uh uh about those things and um oftentimes those uh opinionated choices that have been made um benefit a certain group of uh uh kind of incumbent players over the um the up

and coming in the new so um so yeah beautiful well you know um I I I I'd be curious what the most interesting trends that you're seeing on audios are and um exactly uh you know not only in terms of like the music that is hosted there but in terms of the software that you're developing in order to uh coordinate a collective intelligence of peer-to-peer group of listeners with uh with with the artist so what are the most interesting trends that you're seeing on audios oh what a great question man um so uh I think there are a few different a few different categories of uh uh like I don't know I guess what I'd

really in in one case uh uh you know Trends in in others like emergent Behavior things that that people are doing here that um uh I don't know like we never as uh the folks who built the first uh the first version of of this like didn't anticipate people would do but it's like it's exciting to see right that's that's like the whole the whole uh point of you know or the main point of building in this way right is that like uh uh you as as the initial Builders of the thing don't always know exactly uh you know what what the best manifestations of of certain Behavior patterns and things are but um but yeah I think the uh the biggest Trends we're

seeing are um really around I guess what I would call uh superfan engagement so being able to identify segment and uh ultimately charge um uh uh directly like a smaller percentage of your total fan base but the folks who are you know more rabid more excited more engaged um there's uh uh I think that's that's like the biggest not just for audience but for for web3 music broadly um this idea that uh you know not all fans are worth um the same amount to you as as a Creator right

um and if you can provide a differentiated experience to um you know folks who are willing to uh uh to pay for it um you know there's there's a lot a lot more uh a lot more money potentially to be made and ultimately there are more paths to you as a Creator being able to sustain yourself off of your creative work rather than um you know the the uh patterns that we often see in um in our community right of uh uh of of the um the number of creators that we have like a lot of folks have to um you know keep a second job or they have to uh uh sort of do um you know pick up Consulting work pick

up gigs um you know even like uh driving for Uber and things like that for for a lot of folks that's um that's how they're able to uh uh kind of you know smooth out the volatility in their income that they can generate through through music directly um and uh uh you know opening up more avenues for for those folks to uh uh to build that deeper connection ultimately uh uh make more revenue from those top fans so anyway the way we're seeing that Trend manifest in audience I I think is folks using the tool chain of uh uh of audience to uh you know better better

segment identify those folks um and I think our community is just now on the cusp of uh uh those monetization tools so tipping was was the first one to go live but uh there's a lot more work um ahead there I think to actually like you know flush out the um uh uh the tools to uh gate gate access to various experiences on on payment but um but yeah that Super Fan engagement broadly is uh you know the the thing that we're most excited about that I I think are uh our community has really um galvanized around right this idea that um uh you know not not all fans are uh the same and treating them in a

one-size-fits-all way the way that Spotify or a lot of other platforms do is ultimately not um um it just doesn't doesn't make sense uh uh from from the perspective of trying to uh uh you know both maximize the amount of Revenue you can generate but also um maximize like the potential paths towards having a sustainable life uh as as a Creator right um the level of scale that's that's needed um to achieve that with with uh other platforms as a Creator it's just it it makes it such that only uh uh you know a few hundred to a few thousand artists

can can actually afford to make a living uh from from their from their music and um the yeah anyway so that that's that's the biggest that's the biggest thing other things we've seen um you know there that folks might find interesting are really around um you know some of the some of the most heavily used features of uh audience today being things that users kind of um hacked together in a sense right using um Primitives that existed but weren't intended for that so a specific example I would point out are these remix competitions so creators on audience will share um uh now now today with the fully

fledged feature set they can share um the stems and constituent pieces of a track and uh open that up to their community and say hey if you want to remix this you want to make you know cool stuff with it um I'll listen to the remixes maybe I'll sign um a few of those remixes to like an official remix EP that I release alongside the album that kind of thing um super fun the way that I started uh uh was a a Creator named Lido on audios um just wanted uh you know wanted uh to see what his community would do with um with one of his songs um so he uploaded all the uh uh stems to audiences separate uh tracks mark them

as downloadable many he posts on Instagram and said hey if anyone remixes this uh Mark your remix with the tag uh lito remix I'm gonna go list into all of them and abusing the uh tag kind of um structure in that fashion uh ended up working really well uh uh you know and um uh you know I I mean abuse is really not even the right word uh it's it's more just uh you know these things where you know we didn't it's not like anyone uh uh anticipated that that that would be a use case that that could make sense um there were just Primitives there that allowed

um you know allowed this Creator to come up with a new way to engage folks um so uh uh we have a whole whole kind of laundry list of things like that that have popped up um and that's I I think been the best way to uh uh to Source new ideas new features um dark mode is another one is something uh no one on our team uh you know three four years ago the the team that I work uh with um felt strongly about but um there's a condition of our community that felt really strongly and someone just built it someone made like their own kind of uh uh copy of the CSS style sheet for the front end

um that had their own version of dark mode they're like oh this is this is really good you know I mean they did a really good job with it and uh people loved it so um yeah like when when people can express their preferences not just uh through you know asking uh asking like a company to do things but can actually like go go do it right um yeah anyway so so you know being able to see um a lot of those emergent behaviors has been super fun I'm curious if we could take a step back and um look at so is audience a double-sided Market

between listeners whose jobs to be done is to discover new music and to listen to that music and maybe collect it and artists whose job to be done is to build a audience and to start earning from it would that be a correct characterization of what of what audios is or is there a third side of the market or anything you'd push back on there uh I think um that's a correct characterization but there is a third side of the market too which is uh node operators so um the way the way uh audience architecturally is is set up um there are these node operators that have two roles in the system they host uh content and metadata for creators and then they um index the metadata and and there's

this kind of uh API that um that the nodes make accessible to be able to query you know if I can look up something like what are what are all of Kevin's uh uh tracks that he's uploaded and you know how much of people engaged with them right so um so yeah that with that third third prong um I think that's an accurate picture got it um you know I'm curious between in that triple-sided Marketplace what are the things that you can do as a web 3 project that's uh that's that's working in this space that you couldn't do if if you were a web 2 projects you know does does web3 give any super powers to audience that that it would that it

would know otherwise already have yeah yeah it uh uh most certainly does and um uh yeah I think a few that that uh uh the folks listening today would probably really enjoy hearing about our um uh Discovery so the uh algorithm for determining like what you know Trends on audios uh is something that's actually like open collaboratively developed um but also something that um can be forked so there can be like multiple uh uh views of how trending should work for example and uh uh you know if you um because all that metadata is open too

right uh all of everything from you know plays to favorites to um uh you know the the whole Corpus of of uh track metadata is all open um folks can also build their own uh recommender systems Analytics tool cooling Etc so I think that's been one of the biggest superpowers like the um uh uh for for the size of catalog that uh audience has today um you know on the order of a million or so tracks um like if if you sat uh uh like all day for the rest of your life and and

listened only to music on audience you wouldn't be able to hear everything right there need to be uh shortcuts to um helping to surface to you the content that uh you're most likely to enjoy at a given time and um you know the the algorithmic curation side is is um it's a big part of that equally big though in in our case is uh human driven curation and uh the capability for um uh individual curators on audios who are making playlists reposting content Etc to be able to earn Revenue through to uh the listening that they create through their curation right so there are a number of uh people like I follow

for example um that uh I follow because I think you know I I like their taste in music and then I will you know listen to to the things that they're engaging with and um through that like that there's there's actually a sustainable kind of uh you know business model if you will for that uh uh you know curator of content to to actually you know be able to uh uh uh to generate Revenue now I I don't think anyone uh quite yet on audience is actually earning a living full on through uh through curation but that's the direction that um you know I think that I think that heads right now that there is a uh a a baked in business

model there that's above board and that um that that folks understand and make sense um you know their incentive from accurate curation perspective is to uh generate as much listening on the things they curate as possible right because that's that's how they they generate Revenue so um so those are a couple couple examples that that uh really stand out um I think the biggest superpower from the artist's perspective though is uh uh the um you know not not being able to be uh de-platformed right so um that's kind of the uh um the issue that for the last 20 years or so has plagued a lot of other uh uh

user generated music um ecosystems and communities I mean going I'm going to date myself saying this but all the way back to Myspace uh uh all the way up through you know SoundCloud being one of one of the more recent examples there um there's a a kind of a long history of uh platforms changing the rules on on creators and on developers um when it when it suits them uh and ultimately that in the case of SoundCloud most recently leading to this uh Mass Exodus of of their Community uh you know I think today uh soundcloud's ongoing engagement usage is is about A fifth or a fourth of what it was was so um so being structured in in uh the way

that audience is and where users actually control things like duration and Discovery um I I couldn't like even if I wanted to uh uh change Discovery somehow to favor like you know uh uh institutionally owned content so like from record labels and and what have you like I I couldn't do that uh uh unless a majority of the community actually voted to adopt the that set of changes to um to the core Discovery um and then even if that happened folks could still Fork off of uh uh like the um uh the uh uh uh kind of um uh core Discovery algorithm and and create their

own uh variations as well so um so yeah I think these are these are the things that um our community have have gotten gotten most excited about um just that like uh I I guess operating with a level of certainty that Their audience here can't be taken away from them um combined with the ability to earn more control of audience um over time through their contributions to uh uh making this ecosystem more more interesting more useful more valuable um that's I think those things have uh have made folks uh uh you know choose to to engage here you know even before

there was an audience for them or anything else right those first few hundred or first few thousand uh artists who are you know posting into the void um they were so excited for these things and uh uh now operating it at uh a larger level of scale it's really really fun and cool to see these things actually playing out in practice right the uh the things we theorized about in um in the early days yeah you know I'm curious and you know before this I asked this question I just want to say this preface where which is that you know I guess I'm I'm mostly well known for uh funding or a building git coin which is a

crowdfunding platform that allows people who are working on public goods uh to get funding and you know we've Bitcoin reached a similar amount of scale with 72 million dollars worth of funding for open source software but also other other things and and I guess I'll just say that I I view like creative work and knowledge work to be on this kind of spectrum of you know and I would put music and uh artists that are building up an audience sort of on the same Spectrum as a programmer uh which is you know I self-identify as a programmer I think Ron you said you're also a programmer is that right before we started I am yeah yeah oh and so and so you know I feel this like the Symmetry between get coin grants having this data

set of like 700 000 data points of what the ethereum community cares about and audience having tens of thousands of uh likes and chairs and um in algorithms to help sort through music and you know I'm just wondering you know what's your what what is your view on the emergent collective intelligence that's coming up in in the audience system around music curation and Discovery and just routing people's like discovering people's tastes and routing them to the right music and Discovery it feels like with that open data set all being on chain there's really an interesting data science problem here and and I think that collective intelligence if we're going to do Commons resource allocation

in the right way then we need collective intelligence to figure out which parts of of this data are the most important to the to the most people and you know I I think that I'm I'm complexifying it by saying all this stuff but I'll just stick the landing on this question by saying what are the coolest things that you're anticipating from a collective intelligence perspective with this with this open data set at audios yeah man I uh uh I want to bring the fun back to music Discovery that's that's my motivation uh other folks in in the community have uh differing motivations too but um I kind of uh uh I kind of miss the days when you know you would uh uh

stumble upon something that unlike anything you've ever heard but that you end up liking you know and uh uh I think algorithmic curation more broadly is really good at serving you more of the same of something right so it's good at figuring out what's similar and uh uh surfacing to you uh uh those things I think we haven't uh you know yeah you know as a try try as folks might uh we haven't figured out algorithmically yet um you know just societally how to um how to have taste right and how to uh uh kind of source for for Taste um and I think that's where uh uh the

collective intelligence side of of audience is is most exciting to me um the uh uh opportunity to uh uh to reward good curation and good selection of of um of uh uh music being done by people um and I'm excited to uh to see the community double down on that like I'd love to see people uh build out things like um uh uh for example incentivizing uh someone to be among the earlier listeners of a piece of content that ends up going viral right like what if you could actually get rewarded for um uh uh doing I mean it is work right

it's work if you were going out and listening to uh uh to a lot of content to try to find those Diamonds in the Rough um you know I like to do that for fun too but I'm I'm providing a value to whatever platform I'm I'm doing that on right um and in a uh traditional kind of web 2 context that values being accrued by and held by and controlled by a company or set of companies in our case that uh like you just said that open data set I think grows more and more and more valuable as more people um use it and engage with it and uh are effectively contributing to it um you know just through their their kind of um

you know they're they're going this on in the world and uh um yeah I I think that um that Collective uh that ability for um you know the the um the the benefit being able to be derived from the collective to be larger than the sum of the individual inputs and contributions um and yeah I don't know if we're ready to uh steer the conversation yet into um you know sustainability and like the uh token economic structures around this but ultimately I think that's where that's where these things get most exciting for me when you can actually um directly incentivize uh value

creating activities at a level that is less than uh uh you know the amount of net value being created for the ecosystem but more than you know much more than usually uh the zero that there that uh you know a a contributor could earn from from those activities elsewhere you end up in this really amazing like grow the pie kind of scenario where that collective intelligence can get stronger and stronger and stronger um but can actually do so in a um in a in a sustainable manner um yeah working in web3 is awesome it's freeing powerful and so much fun but working outside of the typical W-2

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anyone to create an algorithm that helps you discover new artists or just play your favorite hits um then then basically there's just like this explosion of curation potential that comes out of the free and open source and forkability uh and and I can see that being really important for being an artist that's trying to break out or someone that is trying to discover new new music I mean the music is in Creative taste is just such an n-dimensional space that it feels like doing it in an open source and forkable way is just a way more powerful way to to do it than than having a central party that that is doing it so I just see a lot of potential there and I also

see a lot of symmetries in how Bitcoin grants works and with the grants protocol launching basically making that data available so that people can build new interfaces for discovering Bitcoin grants and public goods on top of that open data set so uh it that to me feels really powerful and and it you know I I guess I'm curious if you're seeing the the same thing on your sighted audience yeah um dude and I I love uh what you all have uh uh managed to do there because I think it's uh um I I see the audience Community aspiring to uh get to where you all are um uh with with get coin grants like

it's not yet possible today to uh uh to make money from generating one of these algorithms on on audios um uh uh people still do it because it's fun right and they they like like they like the problem it's like a fun it's a fun thing to be fair on bitcoin there's not a way to make money off of the algorithms at this point either but I could that's something that I could easily project into the future and see totally yeah um because yeah if you're if if you are uh uh improving the quality of of you know funds routing and decision making there that is that is value creating activity right um and similarly for us if you're improving uh uh the quality of recommendation um so yeah human curation uh is is

incentivized but right now um algorithmic curation is not um but yeah to to you know to to uh uh you know kind of uh uh Echo your your thoughts there um the the key I think here is that data set being open openly uh uh understandable um and uh you know anyone anyone can spin up uh one of these audience metadata indexing nodes and have like a full you know postgres index of uh all the things happening here and can do whatever they want with it right um it's it'll it'll keep uh uh you know as long as you keep running the um uh the index or code um you'll keep up with what's

happening in the network and uh you know you can build your own little uh ETL chains and and everything else around um around that core data set and data structure um and uh yeah like this for the listeners uh ETL stands for extracts extract transform load it's basically a computer programmer for taking one data set and transforming it into another Forum that's more useful for data analytics sorry to interrupt I just wanted to make sure the listeners so thank you thank you for that yeah yeah uh get get carried away sometimes talking about these things but um but yeah you can build up any I guess yeah putting it really broadly you could build up like any uh sort of analytic pipeline that you might want to around

this right if you think uh there's a certain signal or set of signals that uh is is really really interesting um and actually for what it's worth uh we've heard about um some uh some labels for example and others that have built up their own Telemetry like this around audience like as a way to try to identify like content that's breaking out or artists that that might be breaking out um and uh that's a perfectly valid use case for it right data's open anyway one can do what they want with it and uh it's cool I just want to camp on that for a second because listeners might not realize this but um you know in an industry that's traditionally depended on Central intermediaries to get your breakout hit

to to launch a tour to get a a a CD an LP release to Market and to get your the fact that there's no intermediary and it's just something that you can do through your own grit on on something like audios I think is really huge and especially when you think about these intermediaries taking 90 of The Upside in your career when they do give you that breakout just removing that intermediary and giving the artist ownership of of their career and their trajectory um not only at the time in which you make the deal but because the the protocol is hard it's credibly neutral and it's not going to change the rules on you in the future is a big [ __ ] deal and so I just wanted to camp on that that point for a second there um

the breakout via an algorithm that you don't have to sell your soul to is is like a pretty big game changer I think dude couldn't agree more um that's uh that's why we're here right yeah yeah I think so and so disintermediated sort of crowdfunding and building your career is the is the thing or just get getting funding for your work is like the Symmetry that I see between the stuff that we've done on bitcoin and that we and that you're doing an audience it's just that we're focused on public goods and computer programmers and you all are focused on creatives uh in in musicians you got it um yeah yeah well um if audio system actively successful in the next 10 years what do

you how do you think that changes the music industry or the lives of artists or listeners you know what just project US 10 years out and where is this all going yeah yeah so um I actually think for for what it's worth this is the direction uh uh music is going with with or without us um but I I do see audience being a large part of this this future but I think the the future music economy is one that's predicated on uh uh this direct sort of direct engagement economy um as we call it where uh uh creators are vertically integrated businesses that are able to uh uh you know directly offer services

um and and uh other things to their fans and by Services I mean everything from uh you know concert tickets when they tour to merchandise to you know content like music um all of the the kind of uh uh things that um as a Creator right now you are dependent on these centralized silos of information that don't talk to each other and that have no ability to uh cross pollinate between one another um I think that that relationship gets reoriented a bit where um you know the the uh creators are able to to you know vertically integrate that control of the

relationship with fans but deploy you know almost like you could think of this as like different different experiences different modules on top of that same uh core social graph right uh uh everything from yeah tours and concerts to everything else so uh uh you know for our part in that um we really see audius long-term uh uh becoming like the the fan CRM of record if you will right uh uh we um we think audios is is the best place to uh uh build up and manage that that social graph and then ultimately uh uh for others over time to uh so you know I think today there are uh something like

a a hundred or around 100 uh third-party applications built around audience actually the majority of listening on audience today doesn't even come from the uh first party product it's coming from these uh various different front ends and and things that um uh other folks have built out um I would see similar Integrations happening over time uh in those other verticals right um because it makes sense for those folks too right if you can uh if you can tap the uh distribution to fans that exists here and use it in your you know merchandise storefront or your um uh uh you know concert ticketing platform um all of that feeding back into uh the

same social graph and the same data set makes those relationships more and more valuable over time eventually you'll be able to uh you know I can I as a uh you know let's say I'm I'm uh a fan and can and you know you're you're a creator of this podcast you should be able to look at my profile and see oh I've listened to 20 of your episodes I went to a live recording um at uh uh you know East Denver or something like that I uh you know have uh uh purchased some form of merchandise from you it should be possible for you to see all of that but then ultimately to segment me based on that um that's that's really where we see this all going

yeah yeah it's really interesting to follow and you know I I just want to like you know I know that we're both engineers and system thinkers here but I just want to land where we started with the green pill podcast and that's around making a better uh consumption experience and Discovery experience for the end consumers and a better way to build your career if you're a creative person trying to get out there and so I think that that that is all in the service of those pro-social regen kind of green pill memes hell yeah it is um and uh we're we're excited to uh uh you know to to try and do do our part

here around uh uh music and um yeah I I think this is just uh I I do really see this this being the way that all uh uh creative work heads over time um you know the the idea that that you as a Creator should be uh uh building value for you know these these platforms that are that are mediating that access to fans um but ultimately aren't able to Port that value out or use it across other other things it's like you know it's crazy when you think about it it makes sense um in the context of the history of of

how the web came to be and and everything else but um there's no technological reason why uh uh uh those things aren't interoperable and there is not more Agency for for um creators I think we're just seeing it happen at different Paces in different areas right like uh this email newsletter movement I think is a really fascinating one to me in in that respect right where we're seeing more and more journalists kind of uh leave bigger media outlets and and build up um their own audiences on sub stack and and elsewhere um but where you know the list of email addresses that's that's actually their social graph effectively right and

um you know if you can export that to CSV and carry it between you know CSV just being this kind of uh interoperable uh uh data format um you know you can carry that around between things um I don't think uh there's an easy analog for that with a lot of other creative um uh kind of things but uh uh I guess that's that's like um you know I think that's that's the way all of the this heads over time right um you know for for programmers and people who build cool stuff like uh GitHub and uh uh you know the like npm package registry and like these sort of silos that are already kind of coming uh uh coming to be uh that that segment

um audience like I don't know at some stage I think um you know the the uh I mean that's our you can already see it in uh uh Bitcoin right like the the open approach winning out um and just the amount of funding you all are able to uh uh uh to uh generate for uh for these open source creators compared to um you know the the uh uh patreons and and uh you know the the uh npm repository and everything else yeah it's a beautiful Vision um and I think that [Music] um I mean art is just a beautiful and viscerally fun thing to consume I feel

like such like an engineer of like like try to like qualitize the value of Art in the world but uh that's that's what you get for listening to a podcast run by someone who's trained as a computer scientist um is there so we're running out of time uh I'd love to converge and uh stick the landing on this episode is there anything that I didn't ask that you want to say oh man uh uh I think they're they're uh so many other things we could uh uh we could potentially talk about but I think in the lens of uh uh collective intelligence um you know what uh uh what I'm most excited about is I think I think folks uh uh folks like uh uh USA audience and your Bitcoin and every everyone

um everyone listening here as well like uh uh there aren't best practices here yet I think we're all trying to um uh uh to figure out like how to put into practice uh these these Visions for for the future that that we're having um and there's lots of open uh discussion happening around the same so I would just you know uh uh encourage more and more people to uh uh to join in and to to provide their two cents it's it's more than welcome right now I think uh uh you know the the only way for us to actually find what structures and Frameworks actually work for scaling uh collective intelligence

um beyond the levels that we're at right now and and doing so in a way that's actually effective is to uh to experiment and to try these different different paths so um so yeah that's I think that's the only thing I would add man this was super fun yeah it was a lot of fun um on behalf of artists everywhere thank you for your work in innovating on how web3 can help artists create a better income stream and I really can't wait to have you back in a couple years and and we can look back and see if any of these predictions came true and there's always a curveball that comes uh as the market develops and I'll be curious to see what things we learned over the next couple years so Ron keep up the great work thanks for joining the Pod and we'll

we'll see you out there thanks so much for having me Kevin peace [Music]