David Hoffman: Eth Is Money? (#332)

Transcript

hey there Sebastian here you know the podcaster lists in a relationship is too unbalanced you know us a lot better than we know you and we want to narrow that gap so please do me a favor and answer our audience survey it takes four minutes and it will help us to continue producing content that informs and inspires you you can find the survey at epicenter dot rocks slash survey and at the end I'll tell you how you can get a free Kiki Hardware wallet courtesy of shapeshift - thank you for your time so thanks in advance and on with the show this is epicenter episode 332 with guest david hoffman hi welcome to epicenter my name is Celestine Cuchillo today our

guest is David Hoffman David is the chief of operations at Realty a company that tokenized is real estate assets he's also a well known figure in the etherium and defy space as he's been writing about these topics for quite some time now if you follow crypto at all you're of course familiar with David's work he wrote a piece in September of 2019 titled defining ether as an asset and in this piece he makes the claim that ether is a triple point asset this is a concept that's board from thermodynamics where a substance can be a solid a liquid and a gas all at once so David makes the argument that ether is a capital asset a consumable asset and a store of value all at once he's also a strong proponent of the idea that eath is money and more recently he

published another great post titled ether is equity so we'll link to all his writings in the show notes he's also the host of the POV crypto podcast and the co-host of a brand new podcast called Bank list which he hosts with Ryan Sean Adams and Ryan will actually be on our show very soon sunny and I recorded this interview on February 28th of course this was before global markets took his huge plunge and crypto markets as well so you won't hear us talk about any of that now the events that are in full our testing many assumptions around cryptocurrencies and and particularly this idea that cryptocurrencies are safe havens in the face of Black Swan events in the traditional finance markets but

as most of Europe begins to lock down and we're faced with this looming crisis in the US I think we're in for many many more surprises that are gonna continue to test our industry so these are definitely exciting times in which we live and they're about to get even more interesting and this got me thinking about how the crypto community is coping with all this and what the world will look like after this crisis and so I'd like to create a space where these issues can be discussed so I'm thinking of organizing an event where we can all talk about this so my goal with this is pretty simple I want to create a space where people from different crypto communities can come together leave their ideological differences at the

door and address these issues that are affecting all of us and I think there's a number of things that we can all discuss at this venue one is how crypto companies are dealing with confinement I mean remote work is pretty much standard practice in the crypto industry but this is forcing teams to find new and innovative ways to collaborate I think there's also a discussion to be had around you know these assumptions that I mentioned earlier and how some of these are being challenged and also some of the more systemic effects that this crisis might have on our industry and also things like monetary policy both in crypto but also in the broader economic context governments and central banks all around the world are preparing for

the worst and implementing massive stimulus measures that are gonna have a lasting effect on our economy and I think that we should all be thinking about how this will affect our industry anyway we're still in the very early stages of thinking about this and planning it but I did want to mention it here to gauge the interest so I set up a website where you can leave your email address and stay informed as this comes together the link to that website is in the show notes but I'll also mention it here it's epicenter dot rocks slash reset everything before I go to the interview I'd like to tell you about our sponsor for today's episode the nervous ecosystem Grants Program so if you're a developer or project and you're seeking funding for

an innovative idea or if you're just interested in making a significant contribution to building out the nervous infrastructure you should explore the nerveless Grants Program because they have a total of thirty million dollars in available funding so nervous is a proof-of-work blockchain and it has a unique layered architecture it combines the security and simplicity of Bitcoin at the base layer with the flexibility of aetherium at layer two so at the layer one you have the common knowledge base which is reserved for security and store value and layer two is used for computation and scalability so it's just checking out the nerve owes blog and a couple days ago they released a blog post about the store of value narrative in Bitcoin and how in the face of crisis it still holds up so it's an interesting

read you should check it out but if you're interested in the Grants Program and including how you can apply and what kind of grants are available please go to nervosa org slash grants and with that here's our interview with David Hoffman we're here with David Hoffman David is the chief operations officer at Realty and he's the host of POV crypto which is a podcast about crypto and he's written two pieces that I'm sure many of you have heard of and one of which is so the origin of the meme ether is money and so David joins us today to talk about Realty but also I think we'll get into the weeds a little

bit about this idea that ether is money and and that ether is equity thanks for joining us today David Haye really excited to come on here I've been a long fan of the show so it's a huge honor to be here with you guys yeah so we met in in Tel Aviv and you were telling me I think this is around the time that you released ether as money or shortly after and you're right you were like pitching me about this idea at the I think it was like the ethereal party or something like that and back then I I think I was somewhat skeptical of this idea that ether is money and I still quite a bit of skepticism there but yeah we'll get into it and and sort of hash

it out here on the podcast so tell us a bit about your background and what got you involved in crypto yeah so middle of 2017 the bunch of the gaming separatists were complaining as to how high the prices for GPUs were and so I was like why what's going on here about a month later I find myself mining ether on my one GPU making like four dollars a day which is pretty good and I'm on my way to physical therapy school and about to go into a bunch of debt and so I'm really looking for some passive income so I scale that mining operation up to like 24 GPU miners in my dad's bathroom and that was my plan to to have some passive income while I'm going through graduate school and I just find myself more and more like reading white

papers washing videos watching Dan Finley's talk and at Def Con zero in Seattle watching fat Alec talk on wherever and at some point I realized that all of my time I was supposed to be spending like working on my GRE and my applications I was instead learning about crypto in March of 2018 I went to East Denver just kind of on a whim the plan was to go and hang out at Ethan veut and see the community there and then also go to or a school a PT school over in Boulder and I just never left eath Denver and so on the plane ride home I realized that basically my behaviors are not lining up with physical therapy school anymore and it's time to get into crypto full-time so

when I got back into Seattle I didn't really know what to do so I just started writing and that was kind of the the very beginnings of turning into somebody that produces a ton of writing for the for the community and it's also where I kind of got my foot in the door and the crypto space at large really quick white in the bathroom yeah so it's not as scary as it sounds like they were they're very well protected it was it was the in quote because it couldn't be in my room because it was really hot and loud so I needed it to be close to me but also separate and that was the the room next door but ya know they were just kind of tucked away in the side it's also a funny meme so after East Denver you decided ok you know I'm done

with physical therapy school and I want to kind of just like jump in is that when you started Realty or were you kind of just more exploring the space and doing other stuff before that yeah so know that the first job I got was as a community manager at new alchemy which was an IC o---- advisory firm so when I say I got my foot in the door I really got my foot in the door in a very interesting way keep going into the crypto space during the ico boom I kind of had a warped idea as to what this whole entire space is but it was just me using my writing skills to write blog posts and to send it out into into the crypto sphere and hopefully capture some people and bring them into the telegram after you know four months of that

obviously that business model didn't work out and so I got brought into this company called bunker Capital which is a security tokens agency so instead of many small icos bunker Capital has focused on a few large clients who are interested in doing security token offerings and one of those was Realty so Realty is basically a security token to offering company we just we just confine it to real estate the way that the Realty works is that you put a house into an LLC and tokenize the LLC and so that's the security and so Realty contracted with bunker and I got assigned as like the the project lead for Realty also like to welcome me the ICO industry

didn't work out too well this security tokens industry mm-hmm not so hot but for for a Realty for specific security tokens is worked out pretty well and so I hopped onto to the Realty team there and that was in like roughly September of 2018 was when was when we first started to kick off realty and then I came onto the company full time and sometime in early 2019 so let's talk a little bit more about Realty can you describe what is this platform this is security issuance platform what it does how come you went for the real estate market first what are some of the

challenges there that you're trying to solve yeah so the juxtaposition between an ER 320 token on etherium and a real estate property is is stark it's a stark contrast you know a token is highly divisible it's very easy to trade it's very easy to send and is very low cost to produce real estate on the other hand is not divisible they're extremely valuable extremely illiquid and you can't you can't there can't really send them anywhere they're pretty much landlocked to where wherever they are and so when you when you combine these things the marriage between these two things works out pretty well there's a lot of synergy there real estate as an industry is in my opinion kind of a

backbone of the human species at large like if there is industry and if there is cities if there is Commerce then real estate is valuable and so you can't have a valuable productive society without having a valuable productive real estate so it's really a staple a backbone to to industry and investment and in finance at large and so that makes it really really valuable real estate is one of the most valuable industries in the whole entire world and so as an investable opportunity getting people that can't buy an entire house as an investment or and you know an entire piece of real estate as an investment we need to be able to break these things down so they can access these things is it's kind of unfortunate that such a

backbone of human industry is only accessible to people that can pay cash for a very large you know property that that produces cash or you know it was in New York or whatever and so fractional izing these things and getting them into the hands of people that can only buy one hundred two hundred three hundred dollars worth of real estate and then also getting them their rental income on a daily basis is in my opinion pretty powerful and so as is why we chose real estate versus any other security is specifically for that reason like everyone kind of thinks that real estate is coming to aetherium so we wanted to capture that market first but today you do have like you know real estate trusts that kind of do allow you to invest partially in real estate so

what makes securitizing individual properties like this different than just investing in real estate trust totally and that's definitely a model that we thought of at the very beginning but if you start with a trust you haven't gone all the way down to the basement it's not the base layer and if we want to build out this tokenized world if we want to you know tokenize everything then we need to start with the individual assets and you know part of a system that we're building out with realty that we're hoping to have you know fleshed out and launched by the end of 2020 is something like tokenize trust or tokenize REITs it's just we just wanted to start at the very beginning which is the individual

properties themselves we think that that's kind of where the infrastructure like I said is the foundation is the very deepest the lowest level and then you can go up from there and so in this new model that were we're building out people will be able to take individual properties and bundle them up as they see fit and create their own trusts or create their own REITs and if we hadn't tokenized the individual properties we wouldn't be able to create that system so just to to sort of take a step back here basically with what this platform does is it tokenized is an LLC which owns a property or a series of properties one property one property

okay so and then these properties are sold as or issued as security tokens there are regulated securities and they can be traded on I guess securities exchanges that might accept crypto not that those really exist I think but what what's the the kind of outlook they're for how these things are gonna be traded well so they're on you as well and so we put our tokens inside of you know swapping so we also seeded unit swap with our own liquidity and so people if you buy token you can go to you know swap and buy and sell it through the exchange you know swap is a really awesome piece of infrastructure for us because all you know swap is

is another address and so if you go down to the list of token holders you'll see you know token holder a token holder be token holder SI unit swap and it's just one of the addresses that we white lists so all we did is when the way that we remain compliant is that are these tokens operate on a whitelist and so you can't send them to somebody else that isn't on the whitelist all we had to do is whitelist yoona swap and that allows the unit swap piece of infrastructure to be a part of our offering so recently we had Gabe Shapiro on the podcast he's a his lawyer and he's written extensively about sort of tokens as securities and from what I understand from that conversation is that in the u.s. there are such things as securities exchanges and these

exchanges are solely the only types of exchanges that can trade registered securities does yoona swap fall outside of that category could these things be traded on coinbase or would they have to be registered extra here to exchange yeah registered security exchange I think the term I'm familiar with is ATS alternative trading system and that's something like open finance or templum or these other exchanges that specifically are doing dealing with tokenized securities there's their other ones as well since you know swap is a protocol since it's an algorithm there's no company behind the scenes to manage this I mean it's it's no one has talked

or created legislation about this so when we talked with our lawyers we told them like hey there's this thing it exists on aetherium it'll it'll exist without any human input it no one can stop it it's just a protocol there's no there's no no one is ever going to be able to file filings because it's just an application and and when we told them to that they they thought it was okay I think one of the interesting things about tokenizing things like real estate like toking i's tokenizing anything is that you can easily then create derivatives so are you already sort of seeing maybe not playing out yet but what kind of derivatives could one build on top of Realty like maybe I don't know

like a basket of real estate in a state or in a certain geographic area or that caters to a certain like you know there are high high value rentals or commercial rental this sort of thing yeah so this is all being kind of fleshed out and built in the background right now and so if this is the system for this is kind of the goal for 2020 with Realty it's a pretty ambitious system but we have there there's an another application another team on aetherium that is is that we're working with to build this out we're not really talking too much about it because we're just at the very beginning stages but it basically does what you're describing so

there are individual properties on the realty system on the realty platform that are all have their own tokens and going through the system will allow you to deposit one token pull out a different property and then also simultaneously if you want to you can take you know properties one three seven and ten and then create a basket out of them and you can create these things and anyone else can also buy into this creation that you've made and really allowing the community to kind of packaged up and basket eyes all of these properties as they see fit the first properties that we're that we are in are all Detroit properties and that's simply because they are all low price tag high rental producing income hopefully maybe by the time that this podcast comes out our Chicago properties

will have been announced and so then people can put basket eyes Chicago properties and put them into a basket and we really want that to be a community led endeavor we really want to give the keys to that system over to our community so they can build what they want so what kind of legal jurisdiction is are these based in like so I'm at books I'm matting these have to have some sort of peg to get the real world yeah so there are it's a it's a Delaware LLC so the way that this works is I'll explain it there's there's two companies there's real token Inc which is the for-profit company that I work for and then there's real token LLC and real token LLC is the LLC that all the properties are inside of and real token

Inc is the managing member of real token LLC so we're like the custodians the fiduciary and so we are the pin that are managing all the properties and so we coordinate the property management companies if a health's goes up in flames we coordinate the insurance payouts to the token holders stuff like that and we also manage the the rental income from the property to the token holders and so the real token LLC is a Delaware LLC mm-hmm so one of the questions I have about like fractional ownership of real estate in general is what does it even mean to own 10% of someone else's house like am i intimated none of your house it's your house right

there's no one else right so I guess the question is you know the utility of a house all right maybe this might be eventually end up being a good segue into the ether triple point asset kind of thing but you know real estate you know one of you know it is sort of a store of value kind of thing but the same time it is a capital asset you're usually trying to generate some sort of rental income from it but let's say the house that I currently live in that I own I decide to securitize it and sell 25% of it now when I sold the 25% of it what rental what what does that 25% that someone else owns entitle them to because do I have to now start charging myself rent to live in the house that I

was previously living in right yeah so a specific example like that is an unanswered question there's always going to be you know edge cases but the the main the main case and this is why we send out rent on a daily basis because when we were first talking about how we were going to market and sell this product well it's just a token on a theorem like I can make a token and sell it to you and put it on a website and say that there's a house behind there so like when you buy this token and it shows up in your wallet like what do you actually get and the answer to that is the rental income and this is why we send rent out on a 24-hour cycle day because it's cool to do that but be because it's tangible it's it makes you

feel like you actually there's actually a house there on the other side of the token now obviously we provide every one of our investors with the documents to be able to link that token to the property but it's really the the rental income that is the tangible benefit that you get right now it would be allowed to say that these tokens prices on unis whopping on the secondary market are actually reflecting the value of the property in the real world but that's just a function of liquidity of how many market participants there are if information asymmetries and the difficulty of if you buy all the properties then actually going to detroit and then taking the keys to the house which is all possible if you have all the tokens what if I have 51% of the

tokens yeah so we can code that into future properties but right now we don't really want anyone to be able to buy every single one of the tokens or 51% of the tokens we want them to stay as tokens on etherium so we made the limit as one hundred one hundred percent of all the tokens but yeah so people have asked us that question like you know what because there is a governance process got token holders have a say on what they want to do with the property and there is a you know we we as Realty are like I said the custodians and fiduciaries of that and so if there isn't consensus we will take over but there if we're managing like if a tree fell on the house and the roof needs to be repaired like some decisions need to be made and in theory like the there the

governance of these properties is something that we need to enable we're not really there yet but I think I lost track of your question so essentially at some point let's say I have I buy a 51% of the tokens of one of the properties I can go ahead and like take over that governance process basically say alright I'm gonna charge myself zero dollars a month for rent and I get and I will rent it out to myself for free right so that's only if we put governance rights over the that particular LLC at 51% right now is a hundred percent which means that no one really gets total governing rights except for Realty I mean we're a centralized company we don't pretend to

be centralized it's not what we want we intend to act in the best interest interest of every single one of the token holders and not just maybe one person that's trying to attack the governance but yeah it's an interesting thought experiment so who's such a rent you guys or the token holders so the property management company sets the rent at the market rate so the Realty offices are in Florida our properties are in Detroit future properties will be in Chicago future future properties will be all over America we can't be the property management for every single property and so we just hire local property management companies to do everything for us and they and they understand the local markets and base at the rent yeah so I you know I think that talking about real estate as a capital asset is maybe

a good segue into the piece of writing that you you know pretty well known for which is your ether is the best model for money actually that's the title that Camilla Russo gave when when I put it into sub sack that was her title not mine but I think it's true oh well what was your title my title is ether a new model for money ether a new model for money okay are you the one who started the eath is money meme no so that was actually Brian Sean Adams he was the one that aggressively pushed it and then we like me or Connor Anthony Susanna we all hopped right on board with him yeah you know speaking of these guys you know you had this like thing that you mentioned yeah just a few days ago about like being ether

influencer could you explain like what does that mean and like in a serious way like you know what does that really mean to you yeah so that was actually mostly supposed to be a farce this was in the context of the prog pal debates where the atheria magicians and and core dev skater were talking about how they were surprised that they were getting a lot of pushback from Twitter and so I think that the tweet that I made that was kind of in response to this was crypto and money are inherently social systems and so these social systems need a public square to talk and communicate and that social Square has been Twitter and so a Twitter influencer or a community leader

is really just somebody that a lot of people listen to to get signal from what's going on and I think it was kind of ironic that like the some of the resistance from the anti prog pal movement was coming from people that actually weren't on Twitter listening to the community there and there was some negative word not not to negative not not anything crazy but just some displeasing words from the the Chordettes gator I can't remember who I don't even know even if I did I wouldn't aim names that we were just talking about how like you know the the Twitter moms are you know just you know for granting the the Gator and and and making a bunch of noise and I thought that that was a misalignment with how these crypto systems work because these like I said crypto systems are social systems and social systems

need a place to communicate and converse and that is Twitter yeah a lot of people do listen to you and have read your post and you know I think it's been pretty influential to a lot of people so yeah maybe could you start by giving us sort of a very brief like you know summary of what your main thesis from that post is right yeah so the main thesis of that post is that the most important point or perhaps the the only point of crypto of the crypto revolution is to produce a decentralized finance ecosystem and I include Bitcoin in that Bitcoin is a component of defy it is itself a single defy application for the defy ecosystem

which are applications that can act on the spectrum of trust lessness on the spectrum of decentralization there are all these things that that can be built and in order to be a financial application they need to have money and the only truly trustless asset inside of the etherium dphi ecosystem is ether so on day one of aetherium at the Genesis block there was nothing except for the sixty or seventy two million ether whatever that number was that was minted from from day one and so there's nothing except for ether and so if any other assets want to come to aetherium like real tokens for example you would have to trust the company like Realty to

actually honor the link between the token on aetherium and the house in the real world and that's not true for ether ether is built into the system and so if we want to have defy applications and defy protocols and this decentralized financial ecosystem if we want to have a financial layer that envelops the world in a trustless manner you need a trustless asset to go into those trustless applications if you can't have a trusted asset inside of a trustless application you kind of get this hybrid thing that's not totally what we were looking for and so if we want full trust lessness you need to use ether as the money and that's what we have seen happen in the last two and 2018-2019 that was the story of the etherion bear

market was ether being placed into these applications starting with maker Dow which launched in December of 2017 and really got kick-started and during the bear market of 2018 more and more ether was pouring into maker Dow to be the collateral Ford died and we all kind of in our in a mental model for maker Dow is kind of something like a central bank it kind of feels like that I like to call it the D central bank I feel like it's more like a decentralized commercial bank where it takes it gives out loans and asset eise's them into some stable asset yeah social banks loosely don't yeah I would agree with that that's that's a more

nuance to take for sure that and I would say that that's more accurate but when we were first in 2018 when we were first really chewing around these things maker Dow is being put in that context and and banks need collateral they need something in their vaults like all of these central banks in the world own all the gold and so like what's really the the money of the world is it the dollars that the that the Fed puts out or is it the goal that the Fed has in their banks and so in the in the crypto application landscape and the financial the defy landscape all of the collateral in D Phi is ether like to a large degree like 95 95 plus percent and if we want to have this trustless ecosystem of applications

it has to be that way because it's the only trust either is the only trustless asset on aetherium you know there there is some classes of assets that are sort of this peg to the real world kind of like Realty assets but you know there are other trustless assets on aetherium as well let's say you know something like the augur rep token you know that's a that's an ethereal native token or you can even have things sort of TBT see which are you know coming from another chain but the the way that their design is in a relatively pretty trustless way yeah so I love that point so augered is awesome and also maker in that same realm

MKR and re p these are two assets that are trustless assets but the difference is is that rep is a is a token that earns you fees from the markets on auger and those fees are denominated in ether today in v1 and then in v2 they'll be denominated in dye and dye is just a claim on ether in maker Dao and so really the road all roads go back to ether here and so it like it's true we got this trustless asset but the only reason why rep has any value is because at the end of the day it pays you ether which is money and then the same thing is true with TB TC if t BTC needs to come to aetherium it needs to have collateral like that's how everything in

Defy works and beacon is trustless it trusts lessness comes from collateralization and in order for TB TC to come to aetherium there needs to be either collateralized on the etherium contract and so for any for everyone bitcoins worth of one's bitcoins worth of TB TC on ethereum there's a hundred and fifty percent of one bitcoins worth of ether as collateral and so like in my head ether versus Bitcoin ether one that thumb war because ether is being used by Bitcoin as collateral not the other way around but that's only because of the current design of PBT see right where the key Polar's are essentially having to run a multi sig on the Bitcoin side

but if you get into a system sort of like the designs the kind of that we use more in cosmos world that we're like the equivalent design here would be as if Bitcoin was using a drive chain that was acting as the peg to aetherium in that case then you don't need that sort of over collateralization and I think that's probably the end goal for TBD C because otherwise yeah so in that case then you would still be able to get B to C over without requiring eath s collateral right yeah so that starts to get out of my realm of expertise with with technical technical know-how so I'll take your word for that that's that's how it works and then once T BTC gets on aetherium it will be one of the many other tokenized

versions of Bitcoin on aetherium so WBT CTBT see the rent protocol Bitcoin and so all of these things are fighting against each other for their own liquidity and so probably one will win and then that will be the one kind of de-facto tokenized Bitcoin on aetherium and then once that is in place well then that tokenize Bitcoin on ethereum is then going to have to compete for ether for liquidity and we saw this problem with the bzx attack on the bzx of change during eighth member the reason why that worked was because of how illiquid w BTC was and so if W BTC or tokenized Bitcoin comes to etherium is going to need to fight for ethers liquidity inside of

aetherium in order to have any amount of meaningful displacement of ether as the main collateral for aetherium and that's a hard that's a hard fight to fight this is the fight that bitcoiners often criticize aetherium for saying like well why would anyone use ether as money because bitcoin has you know 100 x - the liquidity like 10 X the the the market cap well now inside of defy the roles are reversed when Bitcoin comes to to defy to aetherium now aetherium has way more than a hundred x of market cap for versus tokenized bitcoin in aetherium and way more liquidity and so like you say all of the liquidity inside of yuna swap that belongs to ether not to tokenize bitcoin and so once tokenized

Bitcoin does actually consolidate into one protocol that's just the first step now to compete for Colette the collateral of the defy ecosystem it has to compete with all of the same things that Bitcoin or say that ether has to compete with Bitcoin on the outside this this idea that the EFA's money like so you talked about this at the beginning where you said that in order for all these things to have collateral whether it's dye or any collateralized asset T BTC we need ether as that collateral and so ether needs to be money so it's sort of this this descending statement where you you to the bottom and you have ether where I've always taken issue with the idea that youth it's money that to me East is

more of a representation of what people think ethereal as a network is worth and the value of aetherium to me is derived from or should be derived from the value that is created in the applications itself that are being built on aetherium and so it really comes back to this idea of utility that ether is the value of ether represents the utility that people derive from the etherion platform now if either itself is used as liquidity to build the all of the defy ecosystem and to to give value to the defy ecosystem and that is the value that is being

created in etherium there seems to be this recursive 'ti there where essentially D Phi D Phi ends up being kind of worthless because if you're using ether as that as that collateral asset and you need either to be the collateral asset to give value to the system and to give value to the system you neither the the collateral asset it loses all of its meaning it loses all of its value and so I don't know if you've heard this argument before or how you would address that yeah I'm not sure I want a hundred percent followed but I think it has something to do with the the feedback loop nature of the etherium economy that is that resonate yeah I

guess that that's a good way but yeah there's some recursiveness there or a feedback loop if you will here right so so feedback loops are both really awesome and really dangerous there's this old meme I think was from Kevin Pham from forever ago where we're proof of stake is like a power strip but the power cord coming out of the power strip is plugged back into itself which is fine joke but where that joke is missing is that what's actually going on is that before plugged back into itself there is this other component that's missing that's that is defy which is like the energy generation machine and so it goes from just a power strip trying to get power from itself to a megaphone in front of a microphone

that's that goes it back into the megaphone and so the combination of proof of stake locking up ether pulling it off of the secondary market and paying rewards and then also ether locked in defy which is also ether being pulled off the secondary market to achieve the utility of all these defy protocols and then there's also things like the fee burn from a IP 159 basically all of these things end up ultimately contributing to the scarcity of ether and that turns into a really big game it turns into a scarcity game in the same way that bitcoins 21 million is a big scarcity game it's a game of chicken as to who's going to who's going to you know move over to Bitcoin Last Theorem is also this big scarcity game

and it's really about like okay where's all the scarcity can it come from and where it when is it going to come from or when is it going to come and so this this feedback loop this FOMO cycle is the thing that powers the gritty growth of ether as an asset and then will also power the growth of D 5 because D Phi is is a function of how valuable ether is and this is a reference to Ryan Sean Adams economic bandwidth D Phi when when maker Dow pulls out two-and-a-half percent of all ether in circulating supply well by the laws of supply and demand the ether price must go up and so imagine if we have when you go just like five or six more maker dows over the next five years pulling out two-and-a-half more percent

from the total supply of ether well the scarcity game is on and this is why proof is sake is so incredibly powerful because it pulls so much ether off of the secondary market there's such a strong incentive there that it is one of the big players in this massive scarcity game and so this is the positive feedback loop that that is created and that's really the thing that that generates the the power the internal power generation system of aetherium so in your post you have this like diagrams talking about this which it's like you know there's it's just triangle and it's like you know one direction pulling is

like eath law can defy another is taking return and then the third one you said like USD price and you said quote the only mechanism is that the US dollar has to generate its equal and opposite pole on the above forces is to increase in price and I I just don't quite understand what that mean it seems a bit wonky like you know yes I agree that you're decreasing the amount of available eath on the market but that's not necessarily increasing the price that's just making it less liquid on the market it makes it more volatile but yes that means it can increase in price faster but you can also decrease in price faster like this cuz you're making something more scarce it's an increase in the price by nature it's just making

it more volatile in general I would disagree with that and I think it's always easy to talk about Bitcoin here because bitcoin is so simple that it illustrates this pretty well you know Bitcoin prides itself on having an inelastic supply and so whenever there's any more demand because supply is not elastic so like with a dollar if there's more demands from the dollar the supply of the dollars is elastic so the Federal Reserve just prints more and bitcoiners are like this is the opposite whenever there's demand for Bitcoin no one's printing anymore so price has to go up and so aetherium is is all it's the the model for aetherium is Bitcoin but but more right but then the problem is that is assuming that the demand for

Bitcoin and also for eath is going up but what happens when the demand for those is not going up right so when demand for a third is not going up ethers leaves maker Dow it leaves unit swap it leaves taking and it goes to the secondary market and then the equal and opposite force of the US dollar that that has to pull on those two things goes down and so the image that you're citing I have like three ropes and they're all going in three different directions proof of stake is computing for ether from the secondary market and from ether and defy and defy is competing for for ether from proof of stake and for the secondary market and then the secondary market has to respond to any amount of ether that is leaving the secondary market and going to proof

of stake or to defy and you say that these things become more volatile and more illiquid but I think liquidity is actually a function of price and so when something goes 10x in price that's actually going it also going 10x in liquidity and so when things leave the secondary market I'm not saying that there's less supply on the secondary market I'm saying the value the price of the thing on second the secondary market goes up and so the total value the total US dollar denominated value on the secondary market stays the same or goes up even though ether is leaving so that's kind of the value generation that's because value is generated more ether can go to defy more ether can go to prove mistake

while keeping equal or more value of ether on the secondary markets I'd like to address this point you made in one of the posts that where you argue that ether is a triple point asset but you first sort of briefly remind us what is a triple point acid and why you think ether fisted subscription yeah so a triple point asset is not a real thing it's a metaphor no if you go out to the old oil finance world and say hey like I'd sell me on your triple point assets they're gonna look at you weird at the triple point is a reference to chemistry where if you balance pressure and temperature and a particular substance well it can be both or it can be all three of gas liquid and and a solid and

so you can go to youtube type in triple point asset of water and you can see somebody with a cool chemistry set that's making water boil freeze and and be a liquid all at the same time and so when we talk about in the context of assets and this was an attempt to define ether as an asset so there are three main asset types one is a capital asset with this this type of asset is something that just produces cash for you this is like the rent you get from a property it's the the revenue that a business generates it's like a taxi medallion something that produces cash and then there's a store value asset which is something that's used as collateral this light that's like gold in a vault

that is like your house when you take out a loan against your house those are two great examples and then the third is a consumable asset and I call these things one-time assets and that's like that's a commodity like wheat or coffee or oil or really I think the most accurate comparison is energy energy is a great commodity asset it can only be used once and then it turns something that you have into something else that's better and so ether is really all of these things it's the collateral inside of defy it's the collateral inside of staking it also produces fees for you inside of defy it also produces fees for you from staking and then it's also it's also gas it's also like that the og narrative of ether

was gas for aetherium and that's that's talking about one of the three pillars of ether as an asset and when you combine all these things like ether can be all of these things inside of one single transaction and that's why I call it a triple point asset because it can act as all three asset types at the same time ether could have some of these properties but it's a bit of a stretch to say that it's a store value and that it's a capital asset and that it's consumable because these things traditionally have been very different from what is ether and so I wonder if instead of calling it a capital asset of consumable and store value we don't need a totally different new type of nomenclature because for instance on the store of value side the

argument that you make in your posts and your tell you've talked was ether is a store of value because you can lock in and die and you can use die as a store of value because I think we we agree that the instability of ether of cryptocurrencies in general don't make them great stores of value but to say that ether is a store of value because you can you make it a store value by locking in and die so it implies that for instance US dollars would only be a store of value if you were to lock them into something some other vehicle or you know sort of invest them in some vehicle or lock them away somewhere the comparison doesn't really line up for me there on the capital asset side ether can produced capital in the same way an investment does perhaps but not

in the same way that a tractor produces something of value that you can then sell as a business or in the same way that like buying a computer allows me to produce a podcast that I can sell to advertise or something like that and so the the comparisons there kind of fall apart and I wonder if doesn't make more sense and I don't know what that is but to try to figure out what a new type of nomenclature is for these things and this kind of goes back to my initial point was that I tend to feel that ether is more of an investment who bought ether or hold ether expected to go up because they expect the value of aetherium as a platform to grow right I'd like because of usage because of sort of like people using a theorem to build all kinds of things much like you

would invest in a start-up or invest in a company and expect the value of your stock to grow because you've invested in it when you say that people buy ether because they expect the value of a theorem to grow I think what you're really saying is that the three pillars of what makes ether a triple point asset are all growing and so like that the net sum of those three things growing is etherion becoming more valuable when a theorem becomes more valuable is because these three different ways that ether captures and accrues value are also growing I think a lot of people would contest that being something being stable or not you know losing ninety five percent of its value does not actually just qualify it as being a

store of value a store value is is something that is promised to and this is the Bitcoin IRR and me coming out is something that no one will inflate away from you and so like Bitcoin even though Bitcoin goes from twenty thousand dollars down to three thousand like you still have the same number of bitcoins you had before and it's really about what is your anchor like what's your reference point and so gold is I would think we would all say that gold is a store of value but it goes up and down in price versus the US dollar and it's really all about relativity and it's really all about what starts to be the thing that everyone uses as money or as a store of value and so when I say ether is money or aetherium is the economy ether is a money in commensurate way to

how aetherium represents the total share of the world's economy now aetherium is like less than 1% of the total world's economy and so therefore ether is less than 1% of the total world's money but to the degree that everyone is using aetherium as an economy and therefore everyone is also using ether as money is this in your mind so the current situation or like a hopeful future situation where people use ether as payment hopeful future situation in the same way that like the Internet in 1995 everyone knew that the internet was going to take over the world I'm of the same opinion that in 2020 if theory am as a financial platform will blanket the earth and then everyone will be using ether as the store of value to operate inside of the

financial fabric that is defy I think I want to try to like maybe discuss each of these three claims here I want that like you know it axes all three of these a subtype and maybe I think the best way to approach this is to break these down and discuss each of them independently I mean I'll just art by saying I completely hundred percent agree with the capital asset classification in cosmos that's how I define atoms that like I have a paper kind of describing this where I say that like atoms are digital Asics they entitle you to earn a portion of the fees that are paid on the cosmos network and those fees can be paid in any token you want but you just had to earn those fees so let's focus on the other two the first one is okay the store value one so I feel like though in

the post she's kind of started off with what I thought was a good the right interesting definitional order store value asset is but then I think you then sort of generalize it to mean that store value to be like anything that has value I'm not sure that was kind of what Chris burnished skis post or was arisen time to say so I think maybe a better term you might be trying to go for is something that is inherently valuable asset or you know I like to call these like shelling point assets where I see gold today as a selling point asset where it's just the shelling point that everyone has agreed look when the rest of the market is tanking we're all gonna buy gold and it has value just because of based off of common belief and that's kind of what the meme coins are here's a

question I have I vote at an old epicenter episode Brian and I kind of got into a debate we're up about like coin and I said that having a pure meme coin is great because it's a religion where if you have an asset that's both trying to be a utility and trying to be a meme coin at the same time the problem is purpose as a utility gives you a rational way to price the asset but for a mean client for Rajan you don't want people to be rational you want them to be utterly irrational that's what's kind of interesting about Bitcoin it's like you know screw it we're gonna sever all links from like actual utility and giving people a rational way to figure out what the

value of this thing is supposed to be it's you know just running off pure like religious fervor and so don't you think that like actually separating out and you can think of gold as being the same way today right there's like no rational way to calculate what the value of gold is at this point it is so severed from its like use in like electronics and whatnot so isn't tying it to a utility kind of almost diminishing the meme the religious fervor that could go into ethers value yeah I love this conversation I think instead of talking about like coin we should just talk about Bitcoin because that's what that is my Bitcoin is one massive meme I used like coin as an example because it's more shocking to people where like when has a silver has its own meme which is

like oh it's a silver two bitcoins Gold what does that mean I don't know but you know we just keep saying and it makes the price go up but at the end of the day like money is a meme right like the dollar that I have in my wallet is a piece of paper that somebody else will give me what is whatever's $1 worth of something that they have and so money itself is built into a meme and the meme also comes as a result of utility and so like you know bitcoin is a huge meme like it's a meme coin it's going to the hole going to the moon thing is part of the meme but at the end of the day you can't steal anyone's Bitcoin and you can't roll back the chain and there is utility there at the bottom of the stack

and so you can't have zero utility and there's also worth saying that like some of the meme comes from a positive feedback loop where liquidity baguettes liquidity and value baguettes value and so what money is is when markets were born somebody came to the market with apples and somebody came to the market with shoes and they needed a something to go in between because the person that had apples didn't want shoes and the shoes etc the utility of money is being saleable being liquid being universally able to be accessed and bought and sold and so that is the utility and so I don't think you can actually get away from utility and what really ether is doing is it's finding ways to

both create utility inside of defy create utility inside of staking while also generating the liquidity premium the monetary premium of the meme at the same time and so when we talk about money as a meme the money is valuable because it's universally bought and sold well that's what ether is inside of aetherium like ether is universally used inside of defy it's the only thing that's used inside of staking it's the only thing that e IP 155 9 is buying back and burning and so as a result that it is the substrate asset they go between asset for all other things that is the thing that gives it's its monetary premium it's inherently useful for all purposes and that's what money

is I don't know if I exactly agree with the claim that US dollars are also based off of me my I think that US dollars primarily get their value from their utility purpose which is your ability to pay taxes I'm talking about the papers I mean okay maybe let's move on to the second point though then which was about like the utility value where I think one thing that makes aetherium extremely different than u.s. dollars is that it's very easy for me to leave ethereal like you know aetherium is just a BFT computer that's what it is and if aetherium becomes too expensive to use i don't have to stay on aetherium I will just go switch to a theorem

classic or tezo's or something right like there's no reason what I can't quite do that with the US dollar I still have you know the US government make is like especially they're like you know you can go anywhere in the world you want but you still have to pay US taxes and they do that by force and if any country in the world tries to help US citizens evade their taxes the US government will like sanction that country and the homeless aetherium being a permissionless system can't really sanction other block chains it can't enforce other baktuns be like hey you have to pay make your users pay transaction fees and eat otherwise we're going to you know sanction your chain and if you can't do that then like if

you don't have that enforcement capability that the u.s. government does I don't know if you can actually if it gets that same utility like that in ether what do you think about that it's the exact opposite so if your aim is an opt-in opt-out system and the reason why we all have to use dollars inside of the United States government is because of the authority of the government to say so and there's one currency there's one you know peso dollar yen euro depending on the region and so for all the countries out there there's hundreds of different currencies and these are instead of there being one money because everyone wants to just use one money it would be dumb if I went into the shop down the road and be like hey do you accept money a-and the shop guy is like no I only

accept money B and that's what the world is that is the whole entire globe and so it's just more efficient if we just use one money and the theory doesn't have any authority over the rest of the world but when you go to the internet there's just one jurisdiction and that's why we only see you really two monies these days there's only Bitcoin and theorem and I don't think the fact that if theorem can't force other chains or other countries or the protocols or whatever to use their money as a detractor for why ether will be valuable because if theorem is a permissionless platform the US government can't stop you from using it and so you can be inside the US government paying taxes in dollars to the government but when you're on the internet on dphi you're paying taxes to the etherium protocol

and so is the rest of the world and so if theorem as an opt-in system is going to take over the Internet as the Internet's financial platform because what other protocol is going to have the capability of doing that because anyone can opt into the system and leverage the value and utility of defy they will long term why we'll all defy and all open finance be staying on aetherium like my prediction is an open financial just spread across as many chains as possible especially my claim is that BFT computers are a commodity right like it will be very easy to spin up a BFD computer - for your purposes and so there's no point of paying taxes on someone else's BFD computer the claim

that defy is gonna be spread across a bunch of different ecosystems a bunch of different chains is not we are seeing and in the same way that liquidity biggest liquidity and and money baguettes money composability begets more composability and if theorems big moat it's big value proposition why defy is so cool is because if you are building on aetherium you are just one transaction away from everything else that is also being built on aetherium like the big competitive advantage for Realty is that our tokens are one transaction away from unit swap in exchange it would have taken us millions of dollars to built out in exchange for our tokens but unit swap was there just next door and so composability is going to lock everyone in into one ecosystem because that

particular ecosystem is a hundred times more useful and more valuable than any other chain elsewhere do you not think we can do composability across change though that remains to be seen and it's just not what we are saying today and this is why the fight for scalability and reduced transaction fees on ethereum is so important because it makes the incentive to build anywhere else just so much more or less whywould composability across chains be any different than composability across shards they seem to be the same technical problem because of the complication that's so much more complicated than just building on l1 etherium all the current defy products will break on a cerium 2.0 because they were all designed for like synchronous

transactions but my claim is that having composability across aetherium shards is no different than having composability across a theorem and a theorem classic they're the same exact technical problem we are now out of the technical realm of what I can keep up with your claim is that aetherium will be the world's monetary platform tell me if I'm wrong all value exchanges will happen on a theorem in some former fashion on you know using the tokens on the theory mucis system and ethereum will basically eat the world of value if that's the claim I think is sorely lacking in in realizing just that that's not how the world works there are many examples in

which this falls apart I mean the fact that there are many sort of national currencies is a prime example the fact that in all types of software open-source software there have been multiple attempts to standardize and bringing people on to one platform but that's not how it works because there's always people out there that think they can do it better some other way so in the in the entire crypto space itself is a demonstration that this is not the direction in which things are going where there are a number of blockchain platforms and of sort of asset platforms that are increasing in valuing that could capture value in some specific niche use cases and things like that I mean name one thing that has been able

to capture a hundred percent of utility or use I don't think there's there is one thing like doesn't exist in the real world Wikipedia and the interested internet the rules change when we are in the Internet but that's not true I mean Wikipedia is one place where you can get information there are many places where you can get information I can go to a whole bunch of other places but when we talk about information at large the collective information Wikipedia has a monopoly on that it might have a monopoly but it's not the only place there are many other places where one can continue tube for example you know as a place where I can get a Thorat ativ information you know one could argue that YouTube is a fine place to get authoritative information but in terms of money in terms of open source

software especially that's just unheard of and I don't think that it can go that way also because of national and cultural interests it's a misguided view in my in my opinion you started off by saying that that we haven't seen this in the real world you know every government has their own currency well there's no governments on the internet and this is that all the rules change when we talk about the Internet and we talk about open source there's one money per jurisdiction in the legacy world and there's only one jurisdiction on the Internet which is the Internet itself and so we have these network effects there's only one Facebook there's only one Wikipedia there's only one Internet there's only one YouTube where there's only going to be one money system and so

there's only going to be one economy Internet economy excuse me if you sort of compare things in their own categories YouTube is not the only platform on which people download video name you know five platforms for people download video including blockchain platforms and also in different countries so like China doesn't have YouTube for example it has its own thing that goes to the point that the Internet is not jurisdiction list right like the Internet is is subject to real-world jurisdictions just as I imagined blockchain systems will be as well yeah so we also talked about the Internet of money like there's Network effects of the platform itself but then you have to also compound the network's effects of money itself too and so you know liquidity because liquidity in the on

the internet data baguettes data and etherium is the combination of data and money and so I'm of the opinion that these two extremely powerful network effects that we've seen exists in both worlds are going to be combined on a theorem and so it's actually going to be a compounding Network effects the incentives to just be on the same platform as everyone else it's the same incentive to use the same money as everyone else and like you when you will talk about like creating videos and creating content like you go to youtube like sure there are other platforms to create and host and download videos but like what has 90 percent of the traffic if not more you as a podcaster should understand this perfectly because podcasting is such a complex ecosystem of platforms and like when you post

something you gotta post it to 17 different places same thing with social media like you have the community over on telegram you've got a community over on Twitter you've got another one of Facebook in other we're like there's a contradiction in this that I think you should see but you're just not seeing it nothing ever totally is replicated like all things are always different from previous examples and so you know part of the envision of me and my co-host on POV crypto is to talk about historical examples and how they can illustrate at the crypto industry moving forward I don't think we're ever going to have one perfect model that say hey we had this and now it's going to look like this it's always going to be different podcasting is weird I wish there was was one single platform but I threw all of

the internet traffic it's kind of niche and at the end of the day like everyone kind of is like locked in the industry of podcast hosting is is an industry of solving that problem for you because we all know it's a problem and I would argue also that the Internet is is not one the Internet is a name that we give to a networks of networks so you know there's like this level three network and you've got other networks and like they all connect together in this mesh of networks because everyone thinks they can do a better than the other I mean if there was only one internet essentially what you're saying is like all the traffic would go to one data center and like all our connections would just go there so the internet analogy also falls apart for me because the theories on

data center is a protocol right you have that like the internet layered stack right the Internet is everyone having standardized on the tcp/ip layer while allowing you to use different underlying like physical and link layers right you know everyone's using the same layer one and that means that everyone is using the same physical layer and same link layer the better analogy to the Internet would be something like cosmos is IBC we're saying okay look the upper layers are our standardized we have a way of allowing different block chains which are sort of like the track physical link

layers to communicate with each other using a standardized upper layer but not requiring everyone to use the same bottom link layer you see what I mean there yeah does that mean that the cosmos is that bottom link layer is that the analogy no no I'm saying that IBC is just the tcp/ip it's just a protocol there's no physical blockchain at all like it's just saying anyone can go build their own physical blockchain which is like making your own version of Ethernet as long as it speaks the common IBC protocol that's all that matters we're talking a lot about data and information transmission and that does tend to converse to some degree it doesn't converge all the way as you guys are illustrating but we also need to

layer back on the monetary conversions people converge to the same money and so these two things are being combined here and so we haven't seen that before and so this is uncharted waters this is a new frontier what happens when we create the incentive to generally confine yourselves or converge upon a low number of information transmission systems and then also there's also the incentive to converge on everyone using the same assets we haven't seen those two things ever be combined before ever and on aetherium they are being combined I wouldn't want to stand on the sidelines and say like hey let's see what happens when those two things combined I want to be in the middle of that another question I have

like you know continue with the internet comparison is I think one of the things that made the internet so powerful was it was so neutral do you not think a token list platform something that didn't like place one asset above all others would be probably more welcoming to build upon that something like aetherium which does try to it's trying to act like a neutral protocol but at the same time is trying to instantiate a single asset above all others that exactly is the point I'm making when we talk about money convergence on one money and these applications or these systems like Bitcoin etherium would be useless without there one native token and so what I think you're saying is that well IBC doesn't doesn't have that

restriction doesn't have that requirement from what we've seen with the explosion of defy in the last six months 18 months that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone if yeoreum is doing its best to be completely agnostic but you can't rid either or the need of currency from that restraint because that's how these things and that's how it's integral to the operation of the platform with that concession it doesn't seem to have stopped all of these defy platforms all these applications on aetherium from being built on aetherium okay I guess we'll just have to you know see as it goes on your whole triple four nicest thing you know that's great I think it's like ease could be a great asset the part that I take the most like

issue with is calling saying that something that's a good asset is now suddenly money money is something that's like people want to use as a medium of exchange and thus you want it to be somewhat stable and problem is ether is not stable it's on its own it isn't good money it could be a great asset you know real estate is often a great asset but it's not money no one would ever go around and say real estate is money there's this huge fight in the crypto space usually between big and others is that does something need to be stable in order to be money and I want to separate what is the medium exchange between what is the store of value and so the medium exchange on aetherium is mostly dye and dye is

basically stabilized ether and so if you want to send a value between two people you can use dye but if you want to have value in the back to collateralize for that thye you need either doesn't make or use multi collateral now guess what is overwhelmingly the collateral inside of mostly collateral die either that's like now right right now yeah and like don't get me wrong I want my real tokens inside of maker Dow and I'm on a mission to get them there but I'm not ever going to pretend that ether isn't always going to be the optimal asset inside of maker Dow because it's always going to be the lowest risk asset because it's always going to have the liquidity guarantees that that real tokens won't really ever get to have the thing that is money is

the thing that is most saleable is the thing that is most liquid that's what I define it's money and so if you have this thing that is in your pocket that you can't really sell to anyone and is stable then it's not money even though it's stable and so whatever is money is the thing that is most liquid across the world the most saleable and it doesn't matter what the price is it's the fact that you can get some your value for it at a moment's notice and that's what money is and so it's really generating a monetary premium whatever's money is the thing that has monetary premium into whatever the degree that ether has its monetary premium inside of aetherium then ether is money for aetherium and for whatever degree that aetherium

is the economy for the world at large then ether is money for the world at large it doesn't matter that it's stable or not I think ether will become a minority of the collateral in in maker over time I think things like Realty are gonna eventually gonna become the primary collateral and maker in fact and I think at least a lot of the maker team sees it that way as well from what we did our presenter episode withdrew and I think he at least sees it that way but in the case that what you're saying is correct like doesn't that turn into a really scary situation like imagine this like okay let's say there's a recession and ether is now the it the money for the global economy there's a recession the ether price starts to go down a little bit when the ether price

goes down that means the supply of die now contracts which is usually the exact opposite of what you want to do in a recession in a recession you want the Fed to expand the money supply to counteract the recession but the feedback loop here seems to like make the recession worse and worse and so I feel that like using this as the basis for a monetary system is like it doesn't have all the learnings of monetary theory that we've built up over the last 150 years and it just throws them all out the window to probably make something that's more fragile and like than what we currently have I don't pretend to be an Austrian economist but or believe necessarily in a wholly Austrian world but I think what an

Austrian would say is that the Fed or the manipulation and control of the supply of dollars on the secondary market in order to balance out recessions is actually something contributing to long term fragility and and risk and I do understand your concern of you know either price dropping therefore less die therefore less value therefore less liquidity therefore more recession that's real I am generally of the opinion that no one really should be managing the money supply and so if that is something that is happening organically then so be it but the difference is is that with maker Dow it's fully collateralized 150 percent minimum and so at the end of the day there is always assets there so

there isn't while there is less and less liquidity there's never ever going to be insufficient liquidity because of the rules of over collateralization inside of trustless applications this over collateralization is the big thing that protects you know a doomsday scenario from happening on aetherium because everybody's safe because of the collateral so long as the risk parameters are set accordingly I mean I just don't see it as organic I think it's engineered like as in like the design of maker is not an organic thing it's an engineered thing and if I feel that we should be spending more time Engineering for a better monetary policy Design Systems I mean that's just how I say I think that algorithmic monetary Paul

is something we should be trying to move two words not push against with regard to what we're talking about earlier there is something to be said about the antifragility I think of like having multiple you know systems competing against each other in constantly improving and this is where I think like I took the most so issue with this idea that there should be one money one monetary system one financial system is that it lacks that energy fragility aspect that exists today in the monetary system right like if the u.s. Falls tomorrow then you know something else can pick up and take its place David thank you for joining us today it was a fascinating conversation it got a little heated but that's it's it's cool I like these kind of debates on the show we don't have these very often you know

epicenter is much more of a sort of interview style and so this was it was fun to sort of experiment with this more conversational style so thanks oh that's funny because coming out of POV crypto pod where we only have bitcoiners in etherion to yelling at each other this was actually pretty tame so where can people find you tell us about your podcast yeah so POV crypto pod me and an old college friend of mine CK we riff on each other since we went to college together it's okay that we yell at each other all the time people who find that pretty entertaining as POV crypto pod point of view he's the Bitcoin er I'm the etherion we each bring our respective guests to give our viewpoints and debate and it's pretty fun it's a good time so you can follow that POV crypto pod is POV crypto pod on twitter

if you want to follow me and my writing I'm at trustless State on Twitter all of my articles are in bank lists and so you can go to Bank lists slash David Hoffman I think I'll probably need to put that in my Twitter bio and then you can also check out realty at wwl-tv oh and if you are an accredited or international citizen you can buy some cool real estate assets on the theory alright cool thanks David thanks this is awesome thank you for joining us on this week's episode we released new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a Google home

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