DATA GOVERNANCE with Théo Pelliet of OKP4

Transcript

foreign he is the CTO of okp4 their protocol providing governance infrastructure for off-chain digital resources in today's conversation we're going to discuss what is the okp4 protocol and how it works under the hood we'll talk about data spaces and how can they can be used in applications we'll discuss the no token and how it's leveraged in the protocol we'll also talk about the fact they're building on the cosmos SDK the roadmap and so much more I'm also dying to find out why he thinks the purpose of blockchains isn't payment but coordination before we get started make sure to hit the like button hit notification Bell And subscribe to get notified when I go live every week and remember that none of what we discuss

here on the interop is investment advice and if you enjoy this content please consider sticking with us we're validating on afmos Quicksilver osmosis and Juno just look for interrupt in the actor set and I hope you book your flights for Paris this summer for nebular Summit it's happening on July 24th and 25th is two days of technical talks about Cosmos IBC the inner chain and so much more no suits no panels no just Tech talks and the second batch of early bird tickets just went up so go to never.builders for more information and to get your tickets my guest Teo is coming up next right here on the interrupt [Music]

Dale hi thanks for joining me on the podcast thanks for having me thanks for having me yeah of course I mean as a French project building on Cosmos it's uh you know it's sort of a Rite of Passage to come here on on the interop um so tell me a bit about your background and how you got involved with okp4 yeah yeah absolutely so maybe to to start I'm not the CTO I don't want to to take the credit for that uh it's Chris no problem at all I'm head of ecosystem so maybe to for my background um so I started in in finance a little bit and and then studied uh Agronomy so life science engineering applied to

agriculture um and when I studied uh this uh this this domain I started to to get across very very complex problems you know when you when you think of Agriculture you think of for example fertilizers of world trade and world trade you you get into the politics into the the financial side of it of the of the agreements and and the money system and it led me to to bitcoin and and then later on to to ethereum in uh around 2019 when the first applications came out in in ethereum that was when I started to get really involved in the in the crypto World um and so I joined uh okay P4 in 2020 uh in the in the funding team so since then

I'm fully involved in that in that ecosystem great maybe every time we talk we always have sort of technical conversations about it before I just assumed that that you were the CEO but never bothered to ask a CTO or whatever wanted to ask um so yeah let's let's talk a little bit about you know what is okp4 and you know give us a brief introduction as to what it is and what its mission is and you know how would you describe it to someone who's learning about it for the first time yeah so to describe it uh very briefly and then we will dive into the details but okay before is a governance infrastructure for off-chain resources so any resources like data sets like

algorithms like storage resources computation resources I mean anything that is of chain and that is digital um it's a blockchain built on the cosmos SDK uh so the blockchain is specifically designed to Define unchain rules and to share any resources according to the rules that you define on-chain and that enables we'll dive into the details but that enables to create applications based on all the resources that are shared by the participants and so you don't have to rely on a like a one Central piece of infrastructure to do that you can leverage data algorithms that are shared by hundreds thousands of

participants and so the project okay before started really with the with the use cases uh around 2019 um and then we decided to build the technology on Cosmos the technology to remove the company as an intermediary uh and to create the right infrastructure for these kind of use cases so that's uh that's the bit of the background uh the the the context of its let's say one of the first applications that we created around data sharing um maybe to give some context there is data everywhere um data if you add some context you have information and if you add

interpretation to that information you can have knowledge and for example I say 12 12 is data 12 degrees can be an information and put a jacket is knowledge so you have this whole process and there is a strong need for knowledge in our world I mean knowledge is infinite knowledge it has a lot of value I mean it's today we can't solve cancer because we don't know how we can't grow food in in the desert because we don't know how we don't do nuclear fusion because we don't we don't know how it's all about knowledge and this is the value that can be derived from from knowledge

is infinite and that's usually the limiting factor for a lot of problem solving in our world and we really believe that blockchain has something to do with that not only the decentralized infrastructure for for storage or computation but really the the orchestration of of all of it and the sharing of that so you're you told me that your hot take was that uh blockchains are not best suited for for payments or at least that should be their main use case but but more so for coordination can you unpack that and you know how does it relate to okp4 and what you guys are building yeah so

it's it's a big thing I mean today uh uh today it's a most of the use cases of blockchain uh resolves about uh defy or nfts or just payments um and this is uh this is uh like just the tip of the iceberg uh I think what crypto and what blockchain is all about is really the the real world coordination um let's say that the blockchain hits role is to enforce rules and the token its roles is to is to create the incentives to to bootstrap the network and to bootstrap the the the coordination mechanism between between the people uh and the companies and so the the let's

say the blockchain is like uh minimally extractive coordination mechanism or infrastructure that enables people companies to to contribute and align themselves according to the rules that are defined on chain according to the throes of truth that is defined on chain and this is a I mean this is the the key component uh is you need to interact with the off chain world with the real world to leverage the whole potential of of blockchain of the blockchain technology and I mean at okp4 we're really focused on let's create the right infrastructure for governance of any of

chain uh of change resources especially the data sets uh that that are acquired through many things like iot or existing systems or or whatever but let's build the right infrastructure to enable people to coordinate themselves uh with each other utilizing the different data sets an algorithm shared by participants so let's dissect this whole data space concept that that you guys are are putting forth with this protocol so that's one of the key Concepts is data spaces you can elaborate on what it is and give us an example of how they could be used

yeah so one of the yeah one of the key Concepts uh is so we we started to to to talk about data spaces because it's a it's a term that is very common in Europe uh but we are switching because it's very connoted in in some environments uh so we will switch it to to talk about the zones so let's let's dive a little bit about about what we do um other connotations to zones are are also yeah yeah definitely definitely uh we don't want to to to to to take the light out of the of the Zone Concept in Cosmos but that's uh that's very different so that's why it may not be confusing

um but the the the zone is uh it's a it's a it's a set of rules basically it's a governance uh that enables uh to to to yeah just defining the rules in which your resources can be shared so um it's uh for example the access rights uh the business models uh whatever rules you want so we're in the blockchain we designed a module that is the logic module and that enables to Define and interpret any kind of rules and so this is designed to to to share and yet to to to make sure that the rules are understandable by the the different uh

computers the validators and that they are enforced in the in the protocol and So within that zone you have any resources that that can be shared I mean it's not really within because some resources can be in in many zones at the same time and some zones can be overlapping because it's just rules um but this is the the key component is that you can Define any rules and you can Define any mechanisms to change the rules like a Zone can have its custom token it can be kind of centralized with only one actor doing all the all the the governance that can change the rules so that can be suitable for companies for example or it can be consortiums like

many many users or or companies that can design that can choose if they want to change the rules so so the idea here to create like a supply chain around data or or just to provide the data because a a lot of I think projects that have tried to create governance around data or data marketplaces and there's been like some examples over the years and they the the idea was to create a supply chain about how the data uh was created so for example you might have like an iot device out in a field and you want to know how much rain water is

is falling there or like how much pesticides being used or I don't know what like I'm not a very well versed in agriculture but you know there's some like data produced and we want to know how and so we you know there were some um some attempts previously to have iot devices sign that data and then that would enter like this sort of data pipeline right this is a data supply chain and then at the end you have the data point and so is that part of the idea here or are we or is this something else at play here yeah so let's let's talk about what okay P4 is not so okay before it's not a data Marketplace so it's not somewhere you

can you can say uh here is my data here's here is a specific price and here you can buy it if you want and you transfer it to a buyer uh so it's not that it can enable that but it's not that uh it's not a data broker that would just sell the data and compile it and and we don't have anything to do with that it's not a storage layer it's not a computation layer uh it's not a data availability layer it's a scaling solution so it's not all of that what it is is the it's it's the governance infrastructure uh to apply rules to uh to of chain resources so to let's set you to to maybe you can you can I mean

regarding the the the example you gave in in agriculture uh I mean that's uh that's a huge field but what's what's uh what's interesting is that there there are many many existing data sets all around the world uh for for specific things for example uh people around the world uh have data about their fertilizing practices uh so that's something that exists and usually that is not shared outside of the company that collects the data so you have the the the let's say the machine collects the data it goes to the usually it's uh it's the the tractors company that has that collects the data and and that can

do that can provide services on top of them uh sometimes it's third parties but usually this data stays in in silos because there is mostly two issues but because there is a lack of trust I mean I don't want to put my data somewhere else if I don't know what's going to happen with it uh and that's mostly the yeah it creates a trust issue because if I give my data to someone you can sell it back to someone else you can do whatever you want with it and they're also a lack of incentives to share the data that is what I'm gonna win if I share my my data with such and such company or search and search person uh and really the the idea is that what we what we provide is the

right infrastructure to create the the environment where everyone can trust each other uh because the rules are on chain um and then they have the right incentives because all the business models also are on chain and so it's it creates this uh this uh let's say this enforcement of the rules uh and the the right incentives to to to let's say incentivize people to share their data sets with each other and create new knowledge because basically when you combine multiple data sources you have more robust uh knowledge you have more you can have a higher diversity of applications if you share the data uh with with other participants

and so this enables new value chains basically to exist um maybe I can I can dive deeper into an example yeah let's do it let's talk about an example yeah so uh that's like again the the the uh agriculture because that's something we started in uh we have a project that is based in in Brittany in the west of France uh that's uh a project that's called it means the data is in the field uh and it's uh it's uh the idea is that uh Farmers uh want to do the calculation to find the the fair price of their milk uh according to their cost of course but

also to their environmental practices and so of course if they have uh better uh environmental practices their their milk needs to be paid better by the the industry and so the the but to have this fair price you need basically two things you need the accounting data and you also need the technical data about their practices because the accounting you know how much fertilizer uh they spend in the Euro for example they know what your goals are eating as are they grazing or are you buying some soy from from Brazil I mean that's that's something you can see in the accounting

and also the technical side uh uh like how did you plow the soil for example uh to grow your maize or these kind of things and if you combine these many data sets together with an algorithm that is in that case developed by the French Institute of research of research for Agronomy that is you have the fair price so that's that's a new knowledge that has a lot of value that can be sold to the industry that needs to be compliant with the French legislation but they're solving something very interesting once we started that project is that yes we have the fair

price of the milk but very quickly we realized oh with all these data sets we can also do the calculation for carbon credits for example so anyone so the the farmers they didn't need to do anything else all the data was already shared according to to the rules and they just had to allow another algorithm provider to do the carbon credit calculation on top of their data and so very easily it created a new value chain it created a new source of revenues for the farmers themselves and according to according to the rules also they can decide which services are allowed to access the data and of course the accounting company

don't exchange and provide the data with the with the a technical company with the Cooperative so you don't have to expose your data sets to the other participants you just you keep it for yourself and you you keep the data where it already is you just reference it in the blockchain make it available to algorithms that you have agreed on and then let the value flow interesting so can you elaborate on the role of the governance mechanisms that you guys are building and we'll talk a little bit more about like technically how that's implemented with the cosmos SDK but I'm curious

as to you know if we take this example I think this is a good example that we should stay on um what types of governance rules can exist that okp4 allows and you know I I think like one question that I have is because because data is um so so data can be copied you know as many as many times as you want and and it still holds value once you access data you have the ability to copy that data and potentially export that data outside of a system

um and I understand that okay before provides the governance mechanisms to allow certain you know entities or participants to look at data but how is that practically enforced when data can be can just be you know copied right like it's not like an nft where there is a tangible so there's like a an intrinsic value to having uh the on-chain attestation that this piece of information exists at a certain point on chain the data can be used off chain and can be copied uh I don't know if that's clear but I'm sort of trying to understand how

lkp4 prevents Data Theft if if it does yeah or how does it how to deal with that question yeah yeah that's uh so there's two questions there are the the rules you mentioned and uh what happens if someone breaks the rule or is it even possible to prevent data to be leaked uh or to be used by someone who has access to it so regarding the so maybe the rules we'll see later when we go deeper into the infrastructure but regarding the rules um we're dealing with the off-chain world basically so that's very complicated when we think about blockchains that are kind of siled

systems where if you want to interact with the outside world you need oracles and you you may have some some issues um I think that's that's issues that are common in you know the systems that deal with the with the of gen world like like Storage decentralized storage or decentralized computation you need to make sure through the mechanisms you define and that the the game theory is right that's the first thing so you need to provide the right incentives for in this case especially the service provider who are providing the for example the algorithm and the infrastructure these guys they will have access to the data because they are

processing it so if there is kind of a back door or if they want to collect the data that comes in they can do it basically nothing technically can prevent them to do it so there is a first uh so we as as Builders we need of course to think about that and there is the first layer that is that is the game theory that you you you create systems like reputation system like like staking mechanisms with the possibility to to to to slash the let's say the the stake of the of the service provider if they are if they are doing something wrong you create these mechanisms but of course it doesn't do anything I mean as a new service provider uh I may I may

describe my service as a as a something and and it's it's not really the case so I mean we we that's where uh so uh comes into the play you uh you you can have audits for third from third parties for example um and you can also use and share technologies that are privacy preserving because the infrastructure we built is is very neutral and agonistic in terms of what you can share and you can even share uh like ZK Based Services or multi-party computation Services you can make that mandatory in the rules uh that you use such services in within that

zone so if you so basically we are creating the right environment for developers to do what they want and to let any kind of data and services and interact with each other but within that rules you can you can Define specifically what kind of services uh are allowed or not how easy is it for developers or so parties that own data to build their own data space or our Zone in you know kp4 so there is two ways to to create a Zone and to to share the resources uh you can

do this to do it basically through through the the code like uh you have a terminal we provide the the SDK the right tools to do that um so you have within the okp4 SDK you have all the connectors to connect your for example your existing cloud provider like AWS or Azure or whatever uh or if you want to use decentralized computation you can also do it we we're building the connectors um and and so that's regarding the the sharing part uh and um and and so when when you want to utilize uh sorry what was the question again I'm sorry oh yeah it was uh how easy is it for for developers to to implement their their

data set on a kit before yeah yeah so as I mentioned the first the first option is to is to do it through the code and the connectors second option is using the interfaces that we've designed so we're building many no code interfaces to enable anyone to share that data very easily uh to to share their services very easily and to create also the workflows because once you have the data and the services there is that's the provider side and on the consumer side uh you create the workflows where you mix the data and the services with each other uh to to create or to or to fuel the application you want and so that's uh the the no code interfaces uh that's

something that that we are heavily working on and that's something also that we will announce in the in the during the nebula Summit so uh during the product workshop for Victor yeah workshop and um and yes it's the same for the zones uh the zones the rules uh you can Define them through the interfaces so we're we're really working on on these two levels the protocol itself uh with the right modules and smart contracts basically and also the interface is uh it's it there will be many interfaces in the future but the first the first one we're providing is this portal uh that enables uh in a no code way to create the zones and to

provide data and services and to consume consume them cool I'd like to get to the protocol a little bit in in the documentation in your white paper you talk about this concept of ontology I I thought that was a really interesting idea that I guess existing you know sort of systems design or data structure design and I'd like to talk a little bit that like what what is this concept of ontology could you walk us through what this looks like and and how it relates to what you guys are building you're muted sorry ontology is a concept that's uh that was uh used by our CTO Chris uh who who designed most of the most of the

things uh but it's a let's say an ontology is a is a is a formal and structured representation of all the concepts the relationships um and the properties so you have you have let's say you have all the objects uh the data sets the algorithms all the resources basically that are shared and you have all the relationship within them so for example each data has its metadata described so what kind of data is is it what uh what uh what is its purpose its size uh where does it come from I mean it's described on chain and attached to the data you have also the

consents uh the right to use it and Inter interact with that you have also the the different rules of the zones and so the ontology let's say it's the wrong presentation of all of that that we call the dataverse and the dataverse is all the combination of all the resources and the rules attached to it uh and so that's one way to represent it uh uh we have we have defined uh a standard let's say for for our protocol to a standard for to make the ontology as customizable as possible and to make it expand as much as possible uh so it's it's very let's say low level uh

standard uh in in the terms of requirements and it can grow exponentially uh in every data and every algorithm can be understandable through the ontology because of all the relationships uh this data an algorithm has with each other and how do they how does the ontology ensure consistency and coherence of the of the say like the knowledge contained within it Within okp4 so uh there's two kind of knowledge there is what's on chain and what's off chain so the the ontology is uh is completely

can be that can be derived from the blockchain itself so all the ontology all the rules and all the metadata are on chain and so basically it's a blockchain so you can change it unilaterally uh you you have this ontology that can just uh just expand in some ways or if you want to remove some some rules you you have to you have to to touch the the smart contract that's called the low Stone and that is only a stone so you you just you can only break the stone and remove something remove some rules from the ontology uh and you can you can only add new things if you have the right to do so but usually if

you if you put very low level of of rules you have the right to do so but yeah your this consistency is is basically leverage and enabled by the blockchain yeah so yeah let's talk about the the some of the technical aspects here so you guys are building on the cosmos SDK um you know what's the reasoning behind this choice and what benefits does cosmos CK bring to the project and yeah then I'd like to get into some of the modules that you guys are I believe you're building custom modules as well so let's let's get into that a bit yeah so the choice of Cosmos uh we we've made it in in 2021

um after the first use cases were brought to the table uh we were we still did few options uh some of them at the time where Paul kellogged power chains or Avalanche subnets uh that's the option we've we've considered but for many reasons uh I mean for for the independence of of decisions uh to to move at our own speed to customize the chain as much as we want uh Cosmos what the was the the obvious choice uh we can ask anything to to our validators from the software to the to the hardware you can create many synergies with the ecosystem and that's something really huge for us because we're as we are

building a governance infrastructure we we need to leverage other ecosystems that can provide decentralized compute or storage uh or or anything and IPC and the vision for IBC is is really that uh and the same for Cosmos and uh to to create this internet of blockchain in some sense um and also let's say the yeah so that's most of the reasons and many things can be done uh through Cosmos uh from I don't know like uh like mempool encryption or native oracles or many things that that creates the perfect environment for us to to design uh the the right infrastructure because it's as

you understand it's it's very customized it's pretty new uh it's it's also pretty experimental so the fact that you have a kind of in governance intensive chain uh with uh with the token holders who have let's say most of the power and can do votes at the very low level uh very often is something that is that is great and you can't do anywhere else because if you want to do an upgrade on ethereum that's a it's a bit tricky and yeah it makes sense I mean I think for for a platform like for a project that is building such a um

you know a a project which is a broad Vision but also I mean it really it's really a platform I mean the way I'm understanding okp4 more and more is that it is a space where people are going to be able to build all sorts of applications on top and to have that sovereignty as a cosmos chain I think it like makes a lot of sense talk about some of the modules that you guys are building and how they relate to the project sorry so yeah most most of the designs are in the the combination of the the modules and the smart contracts um what's there is one core module that

is custom it's customized in okay before that is the the logic module so this is the one that uh that enable any rule to be defined and this is the one that is questioned when a rule needs to be enforced and so this is something that that is very elegant design that uh that uh that came out of the cto's mind uh but it's uh we're using a domain specific language uh to enable these rules uh and that's uh that's prologue so prologue is a is a language from the 1970s uh that is very specifically designed to do programming uh logic

language so prologue and this allows to define basically relationship between uh what we call Objects through predicates so you you define the rules and you define the facts and that's a that's a predicate and that's not huge that's not that's not used that much in crypto uh I I think I've only seen uh one guy that Christopher goes that now works at anoma and I think it's the only one that I've seen building something with prologue to anonymize they're using product for their intense Centric uh technology and and yeah basically it's a there was also for an example on Twitter

that's using prologue if you want to to create a pseudocouple solver uh you can do it in set to C plus plus or python or go with 100 lines of code but with prologue you only you only need three lines of code because you define the rules and then you have the Sudoku solver and so that's a that's a very powerful and I think very Niche language but perfect for for what we want to do and so the module Logic the logic module sorry is a as a prologue interpreter in it and so then you have all the smart contracts and the smart contracts mostly it's it enables to to do the representation to do the ontology as explained earlier uh so you

you you can throw spot contracts you can change the data sets you can put new data sets or algorithms or any resource basically and you can make the ontology evolve so that's the second part you have all the smart contracts related to the ontology in the dataverse and the third part is the execution so you have let's say it's it's very important to make sure that all the rules are respected and to make sure that uh all the the agreements and the value flows within the ecosystem you can have very complex workflows with hundreds of hundreds of Provider we need to make sure that all of them are doing their

work that the data is still available of chain that's uh that's the the computation is done in the right way and so there is also this escrow mechanism to make sure that all the off-chain execution is done properly and then the the value flows to all the providers so that's the third part of the smart contracts so you're leveraging cosmoasm then to build all the custom logic yeah all the all the smart contracts are are using customerism we have also these yeah the vision to to leverage internation queries internation accounts to to Really create a new synergies especially involving the the

real world uh through IBC and through Cosmos and uh I mean today we are we we we're really just starting the discussions with with other protocol because we we were we we need more maturity but now it's getting it's getting good uh and so yeah definitely we'll have some synergies with with our cash we've checked with kive with uh with Juno Neutron with secret Network I mean there is many things to build and and that's pretty good so how we're going to be leveraging um interchange queries and interchange accounts can you maybe you know in in some time when okp4 is launched then there's Integrations with other chains you know what would like an

application that's using okp4 cross chain kind of look like yeah so an application can leverage I mean the the vision is like you it's seamless for the end user uh and so the application has embedded all the mechanism to do the the multi-chain uh environment mechanisms so if you want to so whenever you create for example a new data set through a through a workflow maybe you want it to go to be automatically stored in in kive for example and so you you you create the the transaction is done in you know kp4 but it also

um it also interacts with a smart contract in cab and and and the thing happen same for for example secret network uh some things can't be stored on chain uh especially Secrets right for to to do some yeah to access some some data sets that you you yeah that are specifically or if you don't want to trust any intermediary to do the to the the access mechanism you want you you can do it through secret Network and have the the right encryption key for for example or and then to let the the data be available uh so that's also something that's that is very interesting and I mean it's infinite so I I talked a lot about the

infrastructure but also on the use case side uh maybe we can we can leverage some some data sets that are enabled by other marketplaces uh or or other networks for data uh some of them are are coming you know like you like fetch AI or midi block or these guys are also doing some some use cases in some ways and we we are the platform with the blockchain to make all these guys talk with each other in some ways through the governance uh that is that is enforced in okay before very cool um yeah you want to talk about the token a little bit yes so the token is a it's a so it's layer one token so it's a fee token uh

it can so be be used for staking uh it can it's used for governance also um and it's uh it's uh yeah it mostly has also used as a default payment mechanism within the ecosystem uh so uh data and service providers are retributed using the token and the consumers pay using the token uh within the Zone uh they they can I mean that's something that will come in the future but if they want to use another currency they can do it that's something that we will enable um but what what we want to bring uh let's say the the value capture mechanism for the token is that on the workflows that are initiated uh you have

a let's say a two percent fees that is redirected to the Token holders and to the foundation so the keeps for foundation so you have you have two-thirds that that are going to to the Token holders in a way that that they'll decide basically if they want to burn the tokens if they want to put it in in the community pool I mean that's a that's a mechanism that that is uh that that we're preparing and that they can they can decide I mean once the main net is launched uh we can only do propositions right and do you have any like I mean it's interesting that you guys are building like a data governance platform and

you are also you know a layer one blockchain with with governance um have you already made some progress in terms of uh thinking about the governance of the blockchain itself and uh because you said earlier that um that the goal is to remove the company as much as possible and have to change sort of be self-governed what's your vision there yeah so it the the okp4 now is a company based in France uh we're right now setting up a foundation in Switzerland uh and the foundation it has a vision to be to become as much uh I mean

decentralized or represent the community as much as possible uh in the first two years the the the company and the the the funding team will be part of one of the college uh of the foundation there are there are three colleges one for for validators that will be elected uh one for uh let's say advisors or or connected to the community and one of the founders that's only for two years then the community will become bigger and bigger as the years goes on so the the the community will elect their representatives or for the foundation and it it will be the this both uh entities let's say the Dao or the the blockchain governance uh and the

foundation that will that will mostly lead the the decisions the foundation will not vote on the proposals that are on off chain but they can they can they can say what they think of The Proposal but the foundation is not supposed to vote uh so we want to and the company I forgot to mention will change its name and will be let's say the the developing arm uh and the B2B arm for for the foundation and so the the company will will be completely removed for from any kind of governance it will just say what the foundation uh decide for the company and and actually we have a two-year

contract from the company to the foundation but then if the foundation don't want to deal with the company anymore they can do it so it's it's uh let's say we're we're in the next two years following the mainnet uh it will still be kind of close to to the founding team uh But as time goes on uh the the the network will will do its thing and and can decide by itself as much as possible and in the most transparent way because you know we've seen many things especially I mean in Cosmos and everywhere in crypto that's uh the lack of trans transparency it can kill the project so yeah of course I mean this is always a huge risk with any blockchain

yeah looking at um a little bit at the product roadmap what kind of future developments and improvements are planned for okp4 and I know you guys have this really nice road map on the website with like all the steps um what's uh what's what should people expect from okay before like in the cupping months yeah so right now we we just we are just starting the the last phase of our incentivized program for validators so that's uh mostly most of the work is already done on the validator side uh the program is called nematon and it was mostly to test the technology to test the modules to test the smart contracts

and now we're getting ready on that side so we are opening the builders program uh that is as I said it's for Builders so it's uh it's for people who want to to build an okay before uh this will start in the in the 15th of June so in in less than a month uh and this this Builders program will be in in different steps but first there will be some onboarding uh then there will be the ability for Builders to to CR to build specific components so for example if they want to design new governance rules uh they can they can do it if they want to create new connectors for the off-chain world for a specific Cloud providers for example so they can do it if they want to work more on Identity or

on business models they can do it so it's it's like what we call components so some small aspects of the protocol sometimes not that small but it and then the third phase will be for them to create applications so mostly it will be proof of Concepts but by the by the let's say the the middle of the summer the will it will start to to incentivize them to to create proof of Concepts uh we have many hackathons and aqua rooms uh coming in the next few months uh in the in the events in in the physical way and so on in the in the online way uh we will of course do some animation and Q a and many things to to help the builders

create things that are that are relevant so this this Builders program we have two percent of the token Supply dedicated for our developers and it's mostly the opportunity for for them to learn about the project learn about the tech mostly uh and uh and be the first in line when before the magnet launch uh because of course the the foundation then will uh will will take the the relay and we'll uh we'll we'll do grants and incentives for developer to do uh or bigger applications uh Based on data and services that are shared by participants so the yeah yeah so the yeah maybe the the mainnet

is a is a scheduled uh around the the end of the year it will depend of market conditions and and many things but that's the that's the plan uh and um and uh and yeah before that I mean there is this Builders program for developers in the meantime we're also working on on many Partnerships on the on the B2B side um with uh with the huge businesses uh you know in Europe a lot but also in the world uh and with this idea to to Kickstart the the mainnet with with cool use cases and the on the crypto side for for crypto natives but also on the more B2B traditional side

um with the company that would also help onboard these these other companies especially through the legal and financial stuff because it's never easy to interact with blockchains for them so the company will also has this role yeah that's one of the things I think is quite interesting about the way you guys are structuring this is that there is an entity that does Business Development and that uh uh that is meant to you know facilitate uh onboarding of of P4 by you know mostly like Enterprise clients I think or or you know like medium to large side business life-sized businesses um what what kinds of use cases or

applications uh when speaking with you know customers today what what kinds of things are people excited about building on okp4 that you're seeing up there yeah so there's a there's uh there's a few things uh mostly on on the B2B side uh today we we already have a few projects uh around eight of them uh in in different fields from agriculture to Logistics uh to space of the observation I mean these are the kind of use cases that we have uh and and that uh that are right now being transferred in the test net so they were working outside of the crypto World Nara they are they're going

into the test net and being tested so that's pretty cool uh and on the but of course we will continue these Partnerships and with and this experimentation with the with many companies but you know it takes some time sometimes it can be a few months for companies to to decide to to do something and what to do so that's a that's one strategy uh the the other one is uh within in the crypto world uh we have uh there are many potential of application but for example uh you have one thing that is uh today called like a proof of physical work like this is for example uh helium is doing uh decentralized uh wireless network uh this is through of physical objects uh

some some other projects are doing like like I don't know Hive mapper is doing some mapping that is decentralized that is that is done by users and users are incentivized to to capture uh pictures and videos basically um through through cameras uh you have a demo that does a for example connect connectivity data with your vehicle and so you have this network basically that that uses the token as an incentive to capture data sets so that's uh that's uh something that that can be done but it with okay before it goes beyond that because once you have captured the data you want it to to interact with maybe

other data sets maybe data sets that that can be private uh and and or sensible and that are shared by companies that that don't want their data to be open sourced or or or this kind of things so so it creates let's say New Opportunities uh for this kind of networks to emerge uh and make it very very easy easy for developers to create this kind of of networks but also create new use cases uh through that um one one and so thing another thing that uh excites some some developers is this ID to to do like kind of a AI dial so like you you have a network of

participants within the zone that have of course their custom governance token and our incentivized to train an algorithm a model and then once the model is trained they can what they can do is the through token they can they can decide what to do with it so from the business model to to who has access to to it and for for what for or do they want to make it uh open source or not I mean they can they can collectively decide uh to what they want to do with it and they can collectively incentivize people to train that algorithm according to the rules that they Define so what the data should be structured and what are who has the

right to to to to train it uh I mean all the rules that you find one of the things I'm hearing here is is that there seems to be like a lot of different use cases and a lot of types of applications that um that you guys are anticipating people will use okp for for um do you think that um that might be also a challenge I mean in my experience that you know a previous business I was I was building where we were um we were building you know platforms for for people to um to collaborate around information you know this was earlier in the years of blockchain but

one of the biggest challenges we had was Finding you know a a real go to market right strategy and um and a use case that would allow us to uh to really sort of excel as a business you know do you think this this is going to be a challenge or are you are you looking for like a more you know refined uh go to market strategy or do you think that okay before should be like an open platform and anybody should sort of be able to build whatever they want on it yeah so the the vision really is to is to make the platform as open as possible uh I mean in a similar way that uh for example dydx is is only doing open source code uh the infrastructure they

don't even do uh the the interface the the let others do that that just to build the the right infrastructure and then anyone can build on top of it um you have also I mean the last one two years uh you have a synthetics that uh kind of did kind of a pivot and started to be really B2B uh the like they they started uh I mean other projects can building on on synthetics like for perpetuals uh like Quinta or options like uh yeah like Lira I mean there is even sports betting on synthetics uh there is like 30 or 40 Projects leveraging uh synthetics and and it's it

seems that this pivot is is really powerful uh and and that it creates a a nice Network effect and definitely it's going to be a challenge but I mean we are the first to provide these New Primitives for Builders to to work with and to have fun with it so that's a that's a bet but basically it's uh I mean we really believe that once the hurdle uh I mean once there will there will be the first successful use cases that are initiated by the community now either in the builders program or the the company itself uh with the company I mean with other B2B projects and and ecosystems once we have

the first use cases I think it will initiate this this network effect and and incentivize new Builders to come and to and to develop on top of it so that's that's a bet but we're pretty confident great well before I wrap up uh why don't you uh are you you guys are going to be at nebulous Summit uh you're also sponsoring the event so yeah really happy to have you guys as a sponsor um and you'll be giving a technical Workshop you mentioned briefly earlier um give people a sense of what they can expect from you guys at nebular this year yeah so for us it's there it's really the the first events we're doing uh uh

in the in the cosmos of course system so that's uh let's say the getting out of stealth uh now the the community will will become bigger and bigger uh it's it's mostly the opportunity to show what we've been building uh because it's let's be honest it's pretty complicated topic uh it's pretty new also and people are often confusing what we're doing with with other things like you know storage of data or marketplaces or it's it's uh so for us let's say the main goal is to make it as as easy as possible for anyone to understand what the value proposition is uh and to and to do the announcements uh of of what's coming so we have a lot of things from

from the product to the Partnerships uh that that will be announced there and uh and yeah that's that's uh that's something that I invite anyone to to come and to because there will be surprises amazing well I love a good surprise um Taylor thanks for coming on the podcast today and uh uh sharing the vision for okp4 and explaining how it works and uh and certainly we'll uh we'll be able to do this again I think in the future uh as uh as things evolve and when the network launches I'm really excited to see people start building on it thank you Sam thank you so much