#DappCon22 : Day 2 - Blockchain For Greater Good, Weisser , Poirier, Ernst, Olsen

Transcript

okay thank you guys for coming here this is the blockchain for social good panel and I am here with three gentlemen namely Kevin from git coin Ian from tuken and Vincent from molecule and vitadel um I don't know whether you have caught on to that we we don't always have um the best reputation in terms of being useful for society as an ecosystem so these are three projects that have very much been identified as trying to do something good and before we kind of um dive into metrics and what we should optimize for

and so on maybe um let's have all of you do a brief introduction like on your project in a nutshell I mean just assume people weren't here for your talks so yeah Kevin Olson some uh co-lead of the GPC work stream in the get coin Dow so we're building the grants protocol and passport and maintaining the existing coin uh code base so helping people raise funds for uh public goods through matching quadratic funding uh my name is Ian I'm the web 3 lead at Toucan we provide the infrastructure layer to tokenize carbon credits off chain and bring them on chain with the ultimate goal of scaling the voluntary carbon markets and climate action in general

I'm Vincent's I'm leading ecosystem initiatives at molecule where we basically build a protocols to fund signs with crypto and also core at betadal where we fund specifically longevity research fantastic thank you that's wonderful um so we as Builders we know that it's super important to kind of have kpis to track right so basically you need to have like some way of holding yourself accountable um and monitoring your own progress so basically having um valuable metrics um to track is super important so basically if you look at your own projects

um what um what metrics would you use to kind of convey or to prove that you've been successful maybe let's start with you Kevin yeah so I mean currently our Top Line metric is the amount of money that we've moved through the ecosystem and into projects right so the total amount that we were able to raise through [Music] um contributions from Big projects and then how much of the community supports that and we steer that back to projects so kind of kind of like a tvl type Top Line metric for us but I do think we can do better than that I'm interested in getting into it maybe later

uh for toucan side of things we take a look at very similar approach of tvl in the sense of how many carbon credits are bridged from The Real World to on chain um from there we also kind of look at as we're diversifying the demand sources for carbon how many high quality builders are working with carbon credits building alternative use cases and kind of forward-looking we're kind of looking at how much money can we give back to the original project developers and that's more as you just pointed out that's more of a forward-looking thing of where we'd like to optimize versus where we are now yeah it's also similar for us I think it's also I think the key with the metric is that it's degree actionable and like quick feedback and I think

faucets also just like the amount of funding uh of research through our ecosystem but I think they're like much much better ones but they're also like only becoming appeared uh later like how much value actually was created like for example with us if we funded 100 million of research like if none of it translates and none of it reaches humans and then we kind of failed so but that like is not appearing like in the moment when we fund it but like of course there are ways to measure it like along the way like kind of like even um honestly through D5 like creating a efficient markets around research like early stage translation and research is is has no Market on it until it's basically uh ready but like of course with two degrees of the hyper financialization of

D5 I think you could create like a markets prediction markets all kinds of markets around determining like How likely something is to work um so I think that's where I think is interesting also in a scientific context it's an interesting I would assume that basically having efficient markets is kind of predicated on having a large number of experts that kind of have access to sufficient funding to kind of create this efficient market yeah good question I think it's it's like like every Market I think it's a right now it's a very inefficient market so I think there's like not a lot of information if like a for example we

funded like 14 research projects there's not a lot of information which one should be worth almost zero because there's like no translational impact and which one should be worth two or five or whatever X because it has translation of potential it might be bought out by like for example biotech or spin into biotech and I think uh ultimately like in every early stage market like with more inefficiency there's like more incentive for people to come in to uh to really of course speculate it but to start making the market more efficient and so I think even if it's like 10 people in the market it's a bit like a prediction Market or betting Market which I know we're going to start it out with uh that even if it's like a few people like the super forecasters the super predictors like they will get positive feedback

loops by making money and we'll stick around so I think it's it doesn't need that many people it just needs people who are like the main experts and they have a good sense of valuing for example the impact or the value of the science okay so you're talking more of a reputational prediction Market not so much money prediction right it like it could literally be for example like a ipnft is the Primitive we create so uh for example we did our funds a research project for say half a million and that's an ipn ft and that could be fractionalized and then it's basically uh of course the thing then to figure out is like a mechanism for fair price Discovery but then for example if

there's updates coming in from the researcher that should be reflected kind of in the value of the pnft and um and then even like the speculation would flow back to fund more research like the fees in the of the liquidity pools but I think that's actually an interesting thing it becomes kind of like a D5 uh challenge to create like the best Market mechanisms for fair price discovery of translational research for example but it's also super early like we're still scoping out like fractionalizing the first ipnft and I think um yeah getting this right it's also important because I think it could also like be like we've seen with fractionalized nfts like a very inefficient Market uh that doesn't have the right incentives for fair price

Discovery but like for example please that are like uh fractionalizing their dock nft file for being or something and then uh selling it uh it's like not the same incentive as like a fair price Discovery around research to determine which research to further fund but yeah I think there's like a lot of different experiments and I think that's also the power of crypto and web 3 is that we can run a lot of these experiments in parallel and way quicker than say in web 2 or like traditional science funding and see what works but I think it's it's definitely not a sure way to to to Value the impact yet it's just I could be one experiment that could be interesting yeah that's super interesting I'll come

back to you guys later I haven't forgotten you I just have a couple of things I kind of want to get out of Vincent first um so Vincent's you you guys have come um to This research ecosystem um you know from web3 um and I would assume that researchers having been you know fundamental researcher previously in you know like two lives back um they are often um hesitant of Market mechanisms right because Universities at their very core are not um basically if you're a fantastic researcher you're not going to make more or substantially more than you know an

average researcher right basically it's all reputation based so uh there's a certain disdain um for money and money-based systems in basic research have have you found this and how have people in that um fairly I want to say altruistic and I think it's altruistic in some ways that they're not monetizing their full potential um but it's it's also um very protective of of their own reputation right so basically how have you founded um to kind of enter this you know from this web 3 angle because as I said you know in in in the in my very first sentence you know to The Wider public we are not

always depicted in the most favorable light right yeah I think it's a good question I think to degree of course it's biased because like the researchers said which are the researchers that are Keen to explore collaboration are more open to experimentation I think ultimately at the end of the day the researcher cares about having an impact and like they need funding for that and they realize okay there is a huge amount of funding uh now in crypto and like a lot of crypto philanthropists that are actually funding uh signs at a massive scale like people like vitalik and others um so I think they're more open than one would believe and then especially I think the historically also most well-known scientists right now are actually extremely good in the Capital Market so for example examples George Church from MIT like he probably

co-created 200 companies uh like some of them like in Crystal space and other spaces a lot of them already failed but it's it's kind of like he's a machine at like having every of his students like turn as early as possible like their idea into company because then they just have much more access to Capital and I think a lot of researchers are seeing this model and seeing like struggling to get say half a million and like in this ecosystem there's like billions already flowing in like all of us research projects because they're as early as possible translated by a company so I think researchers also coming to the fact that okay like if they want to succeed they need to understand the market and ultimately I think it's in biomedical research the only way to get to humans is through clinical trials

which cause hundreds of means so it of course it's different for basic science but because we're focused on translational research I think actually most researchers are happy about it because of course also they realize like if they don't play with these incentives and um are not open for example for biotech spin-off then it's very likely that their research will only be a paper and like have no impact that is like measurable in the sense of like delivering a therapeutic to humans so I think uh yeah like the researchers want to have the biggest impact realize that they need like a biotech for example to um commercialize their research mm-hmm okay yeah I think that makes a lot of sense um final question for now promise

um why um why would you say you guys need to be organized as a web 3 organization as a dog could you not just be a Discord server with like a joint bank account or something yeah I think it's also a good question I think the core how I realize it is that it's like some album at this point that it's like surprisingly easy to like uh buy a dog nfts or tokens but hard to fund signs or or early search startups for example and I think making it extremely easy to fund science is extremely high impact and useful but I think the to your point uh I think the digitalization also happens and it's it's just much more Global in nature in the sense that like we have people from

Africa from Singapore from Germany from like all over the world easily joining I think it would it is very hard in a traditional web to world but also like we like we don't want to be exposed to like a PayPal just saying like oh let's freeze this because like someone doesn't like it like in the sense I think but then of course it's also the tokenization benefits that you can incentivize contributors and give them governance rights by for example someone who's writing an article for Vita dog at some someone who's referring a research project get some tokens and some governance rights and I think those things are extremely powerful because then people feel also um ownership over governing the research and getting involved which I think for

example Foundation lags and it's two degree of course just like it's way easier to join a dial on the Discord than joining for example Foundation sounds about right and also in the business of taking money and redistributing it which is you know broadly you know along the same same lines as Vincent right right how would you um see the things that he says as he said in a different Nuance or do you think there's um some of it that applies to you as well in terms of uh why why a Dao versus a traditional well yeah we can do that we can do that first that's great okay sure I have other questions

but let's do wire down first well I mean I think uh you know the the payment rails in web 3 just make that a lot easier right that you're facilitating peer-to-peer payments and you're not ultimately becoming a payment provider yourself I think that's a really strong reason to do it but then also I think coming back to the idea of it actually being you know Community governed um project with with Governor's token behind it there's a lot of power in that and it's I think benefiting the structure of of the project foreign do you think um people are inclined to give more if they feel they have at least a little say and I hope so I mean I think so yes

um I think a lot of people donate to uh projects on bitcoin without necessarily being members of the Dow though so I think what we're seeing is a different kind of Attraction of a of a different community that wants to like steer the future of it and help us decide like what the structure should be and how we should set things up that's super interesting can you give us a little bit of insight into the sociology of you know the git coin Dao a Taoist yeah I'm pretty new to it so I'll be honest I think I'm an observer for a long time and like an active participant for just a little while um I think what we're seeing is like it's it's a really interesting from like where where Talent Finds Its way in right so having come from more traditional background there's much less

of an like active Outreach and a much more sort of a passive people sort of find their way to it um we're seeing this in a variety of projects where people just get interested um they start kind of participating joining the Discord and then they start showing some value and getting invited to more and then become full-time contributors so it's this really interesting kind of open door policy where people sort of find theirselves find their way to us somehow um and get involved and start contributing at higher and higher levels yeah super interesting um do they typically do that um as a side job or is this is it are they paid for this are they uh I don't know actually that's a good question I think a lot of people who are kind of in

transition they're kind of trying to decide like what do I want to do next and as they do that they're sort of exploring a variety of options and they come in they find a sub group something that they're interested in start contributing their time positive feedback loop and then they get involved as uh contributors with with yeah like a full-time role Vincent yeah I just want to chat because I'm also like a good video like on the very side like for example now launches uh science round with like I think a half a minute of matching funds and and like like I've seen this like we've also with betadour launcher longevity Bitcoin around and I think the power is really of good coin is that it's just like intrinsically motivated people like I I helped to start a long-term round not because I expected any rewards in return but

because I wanted to like to find Long dirty research and exploring the mechanism of chronetic uh donations I think the powers that it's like fairly easy to to get involved like like ultimately we like through a few messages with people from Bitcoin like got to this uh longevity Bitcoin round and then help basically to fundraise the matching fund and and onboard at the projects but then it happened then basically I think the power what I always see like now also with the um Desai round on bitcoin is that it's just like the shelling point for people in ethereum ecosystem to do good and like adding longevity or or deciphon me seem logical to like make people aware that are already giving to like ethereum public goods to also give to for example signs probably goods and add it to their basket and I I think that's like

actually like I think a huge impact of of Bitcoin it's like has the strongest motivated Community like since the dial there's like I haven't seen any data that's like as many intrinsically motivated people like coming together like in the design for the round like they were like 30 people in the ecosystem supporting and like none of them getting any incentives or pay or anything and they're like supporting like as much as they can to bring a donor so on board people for but just because they care about the cause of I think that's a really powerful about Bitcoin um a good coin obviously kind of it functions in in mostly in rounds so basically there's a matching pool um and basically the participation kind of

um is related to the size of the matching floor so right so basically if you if you're gonna donate to a project basically the project is going to get um some share of that your donation is being matched to a certain degree and basically this is determined by you know you know by quadratic uh relation right right exactly so how much do you think this stands and falls with the actual um uh matching pool so do you think people people where to give um if this would be to be taken away no I don't think so at all actually I think that that's a strong motivator right I think having to I mean I think that that experience of you know putting a couple die on a project and seeing

that you've just brought 15 die to that project is this like really strong psychological motivator to get you over that free writer problem right where it's very difficult to incentivize people to just donate anything altruistically unmatched right uh to project so I think that's been kind of the the superpowers that quadratic funding but that also means you have to find the matching pool right yeah that's a lot of work right yeah that's the the public goods funding work stream uh there's a small team that's you know constantly raising funds working with ecosystem Partners to try to get folks like uh Vita data to support um yeah so that's that's like what the

Dow supports in itself is is that fundraising mechanism and getting more and more communities involved do you think um if there were to be maybe an elected Council like not a Dao that kind of determined where these funds were to go I mean you would you would kind of uh you would save a lot of overhead right so maybe um I think what you'd give up in that though is the ability for this not to have this inner group deciding like what the best way to fund these projects is but you what we've opted for is this really just Bottoms Up like wisdom of the crowd type approach where any project arrives into the round with the

same footing as any other project um once it's passed a fraud screening to make sure that it's a legitimate project once it's through there it's really presented in the same uh sort of hierarchies everything else and it's really about the crowd showing up donating to the projects they care most about um I think for us what that what that shows and I think in the in the restructuring of some of Bitcoin too is if you look we used to have one round and now we have it's in the teens now how many side rounds run in in parallel uh so not just D side but we have climate we have um dni we have a variety of things crypto advocacy each of those rounds kind of has its own community and own goals but the magic of all of these

things running in parallel is the ability to steer from like the matching pool and some of these other things um yeah so so basically maybe if I paraphrase this the power comes from the stakeholdership of the individuals in the Dao right um um is that true I think to some degree yes yeah I would agree with that in tell us about chicken so basically tuken um is a trading uh venue for carbon credits right so for for onboarding carbon credits into the um web3 ecosystem yeah you have it so really our core functionality is how do we bring credits that already exist off

chain where a lot of the you know value proposition of toucan are some of the challenges we experience in the traditional market so the traditional marketplaces are often the main value extractors are the brokers who end up kind of financing the projects instead of the project developers you have um because it goes to the Brokers often there's no price Discovery there's often no instant liquidity as well so if you have credits you have to shop around to different Brokers and try to find the highest price and then there's been in the past a lot of issues around fraud behavior and double counting which is just the idea of that a broker owns the credit and they sell the same credit to multiple people and since all that data is kind of in a closed database you

really aren't able to see any of that activity so once you bring the carbon credits on chain you have a representation of the off chain credit on chain you suddenly start fixing a lot of those problems about the opaque Marketplace used to um you've kept instant price Discovery with aspects of defy and what this really opens the door to which is really exciting is because of the payment rails that were talked about earlier and these peer-to-peer networks a lot of of the people who are doing a lot of the carbon sequestration and a lot of the great groundwork are often small communities indigenous peoples who have been traditionally marginalized by the financial system and they're the people now when they do develop projects aren't extracting the

value as I said it's mainly the brokers who are doing it so one of the big exciting pieces of this is that because of blockchain and because these are now open sourced you can see them on a permissionless blockchain you can see the data trail of it you understand how it's moving around it's really easy to actually look at where the products are being financed and put money towards those projects within today's terms those products are not considered as advantageous by the standards and the financiers because they you know aren't big enough to make it worth their wild and so web3 has that range of investment opportunity and risk seeking where people are willing to put in a hundred dollars for a micro loan for a project or tens of thousands for um maybe 50 60 hectares of land which

would be unheard of in the traditional world so there's a lot of really exciting pieces that are moving along with a toucan but our main focus Now is really scaling up that carbon Marketplace and really trying to get value back to the project developers and find it away from the Brokers themselves super interesting and I mean blockchain does enable that you know level of transparency and uh this intermediation to use a buzzword um but um don't you guys still have a huge problem um an oracle problem kind of onboarding these certificates into onto the blockchain you know in the first place because I I think I I mean um uh carbon offsetting or carbon credit

trading has been hugely critiqued lately for you know you know green washing basically kind of saying look this is this is a forest and it was there you know from uh you know Adam and Eve and basically now we're kind of selling this as carbon credit on the blockchain and I mean you can you can make the entire on-chain process as transparent as you want if you don't solve the Oracle problem nothing is gained right yeah I think that's a good point and I think a lot of the critiques that are about the current markets are pretty Justified I would say it's kind of just this idea that even it's kind of like what what is the evaluation we want to look at it from because if we just look at trees without the carbon credit aspect of it

we you know there'll always be a power dynamic or some sort of political Dynamic to want to convert those trees into Commodities and so what is the way that we can work together to make evaluation structure so a tree is worth standing up more than it is being cut down and well it may not be as exciting for other people to want to tokenize Nature and make biodiversity a very calculated economic element we already kind of do that but just in another direction we do it in commodification of these assets as well so I would say that's kind of the big takeaway I have with that is you know we got to really choose what we want to do with this and if we want to choose not to turn them into carbon credits or turn the biodiversity into natural Capital assets as they're kind of being called now we

kind of go in the other direction and right now we've been losing the um climate crisis um simply because uh we're not trying to do enough as quick as possible and we're relying on the Goodwill of people when we really need to make it about an incentive issue because that's why we have the climate crisis in the first places we have an incentive structure that encourages the extraction of these assets at a rate that doesn't really include the social benefits from them so where do we find that kind of balancing act and that's a really tricky question a lot of people are trying to figure that one out but it really is about making that biodiversity worth way more than it is being cut down and as I just said right now we've been relying on the goodness of others for conservation and we're seeing that

that's not a winning strategy cool thank you that was uh great answer um so I think we kind of we all understand what your projects are doing and kind of what you you how you are measuring your own impact or how um what you aspire to if you're not doing that yet right so um what do you think we as an ecosystem should be opted should optimize for for Humanity right so basically if if you ask yourself why do I actually get up in the morning why why do I do this if you've been in crypto for long enough probably not for the money so it's um I mean what what actually what metrics should we as a fairly small ecosystem

um optimized for um you know to benefit Humanity and maybe start with Vincent because I see you nodding yeah I think like if one takes a step back like it's also a thing that got me excited like early on was like um kind of like how to have the biggest impact and I think everyone takes two steps back it's like uh I I like kind of like the emphasis from like the um Bitcoin community of like pluralism of like different metrics and different values and I think ultimately the world is optimizing GDP and I think like improving that metric and like adding metrics to it is one of the highest impact ways and I think historically I think actually uh like like Society like economic growth if it would account for everything would be the right metric

like like everyone takes a step beyond our ecosystem and I think actually like blockchain is contributing to to GDP and making the world more efficient but I think so basically improving GDP I think is the one and like it's like the whole kind of like progress studies movement like how to make scientific and economical progress much quicker and one way is to do to fund much more early stage research and then it comes back to what we do and I think another like again metric for like Maximum Impact I think is really um coming like from like I think one of the most successful movements like in history now is like effective altruism with metrics like qualities which is a quality adjusted live years and I think one is kind of

like to degree we want to maximize uh human uh lives and happiness and and reducing suffering like reducing bins of people's starving but also animals and other things so I think this is also one metric that we should look at but like it shouldn't be totalizing that we're just optimizing for GDP or just for Quality I think like all of those like the world I think is making the mistake of totalizing GDP and EA is making the sake of totalizing uh qualities and other things I think to go back to the ecosystem one I think to degree I think the ecosystem like like group I think is to be honest extremely money driven like kind of like a mono GDP then uh effective altruism Spectrum but then I think a lot of the for example crypto billionaires I think are very in for

example camp and I think actually someone like vitalik is interesting because I think he's uh kind of like not just purely uh funding effect of altruism and things but also for example along jvd research which I think is like one of The Highest Potential impacts because it adds a lot of like quality life years for not that much money like in a grand scheme because you kind of like create a benefit for every human like if you're a chief for example even like with a covet pandemic if you develop a vaccine it brings value to everyone on Earth and also to the next like millions of generations of humans but I think it's a complex question I think the Cobalt answer is like ultimately we should improve GDP and I

think actually crypto can help in that and send um on for example climate side to take in more of the external cost factors like climate destruction so kind of like making GDP more sustainable but I think for the ecosystem it's like on gdpr and so like maximizing wealth and then doing the most good with it like might be an answer that like a lot of people like some bank and feed for example and other search chasing that I think it's not the worst like a way to to add value um is probably one of the most impactful people in crypto so yeah I don't have a great answer but yeah do you guys agree that maximizing GDP is what we should go for and improving to be importantly like I think not in the current

I I all agree with the improving the GDP metric more than just purely optimizing for it um as I come from the climate realm and focusing a lot on climate change the you know a lot of Institutions like the White House the UN the bank of England are all calling to add natural Capital assets onto the on to the balance sheet and they make a great argument in their paper they present on linking environmental and economic statistics to decision making which is just a fancy word for you know saying if there's a lake in the community relies on fish from that Lake how much value is the lake really producing which is something that we don't really look at as much we look at it from a value perspective of land and then a value extraction from the livestock but they give a great

example that's saying you know if you were to plant 40 million dollars of urban forests in a city and that reduced medical expenses it's America as well so by 60 million dollars from a net GDP perspective you've actually lost 20 million dollars instead of saving um the communities and the public um 20 million you really just ruined 20 million from GDP so I'll stand at the camp that if we work to improve it there's definitely a lot of opportunity there but in its current form it's not quite optimized for positive externalities social well-being anything like that but but I but I agree with your your ending there you looked unhappier well I think I think GDP is a tough one I I like what you're saying about

um uh improving the metric itself right and this this classic problem of like you you lose out on benefits because there's no economic activity from preventing spend in in these in these public good systems um so yeah I'd say it's a pretty pretty broken metric in Celsius I'd agree with that but I would kind of go a level deeper and I think you mentioned some interesting things about sort of different kind of communities that can benefit from from this work um what what I would kind of steer towards more is identifying what those communities are and giving them the ability to solve their own problems coordinate together right because really what we're all talking about is like coordination failures either at a global or a national or local level and I think the real power of of all of this technology

is to improve on the coordination uh abilities of the humans involved right so giving them these tools building these systems that allow them to um collectively decide you know what would be the best outcome for them um what what is kind of missing in all of this though is sort of the feedback loop right so this is this is my self-critique of git coin right we're really good at getting money out the door but do we know if it's being spent effectively do we know if these projects are actually doing what they said they would do there's sort of a sense that if a project isn't that it wouldn't continue to receive funding but we don't really have hard data on that right so that would be the thing to improve and I love the proposals that we're seeing from Folks at protocol labs around like

impact certs or hyper certs and starting to create some kind of uh this is a kind of a marketification of this idea but ultimately creating these feedback loops that allow people to be more informed you know when they're deciding these things within their communities and making sure they're they're arriving at optimal outcomes so I'm in that Pro sort of democracy camp like let's let people decide at local and sort of the the natural polity of those groups uh decide their own Fates I'm very much with you and that I think I'm a moderator with an opinion apparently um so I'm very much with you in that I think um agency um is something that lots of people lack

which leads them to not care and I think kind of giving people back the idea that they can be their own you know they they they can they run their own lives and um giving them back agency I think this may be a large part of the solution which I'm also totally pro-do and I think this is an argument that is often neglected by the Dao people because it's always kind of shared shared ownership and so on but basically this idea that um uh that even just being part of a community and feeling that you can change you know even just your local World

um this is something that has been lost um over the last decades right so basically maybe let's let's use the last 10 minutes to kind of talk about tooling [Laughter] um that we could build to give people back agency and you know the control over their own lives in a way yeah I don't mind going from the carbon perspective as well go for it where I'm sitting through so the two the kind of the two big avenues that I see are as I mentioned at the very beginning uh most carbon projects and a lot of the land

stewards of biodiversity today are indigenous peoples who have been marginalized by the economic system and by the global North for um as long as we can remember and kind of record so ways to really help this is how do we Design Systems for them so that when we do want to they want to build carbon projects and their carbon developers in the global South how do we ensure and build the payment systems and the governance system so that the actual indigenous communities that are building these actually get to extract the value from them currently right now that's that's not the case going on so finding a way for them to extract the value and it's it makes a lot of sense if you can just look at it from well what type of

governance structures can we design in these smart contracts that when money is going to these places and once we have the proper due diligence in places this is kind of forward-looking and there is uh technology that still needs to be found to finalized in what they call the dmrv space which is decentralized measurement reporting and verification which is using satellite imagery or Internet of Things to kind of look at Carbon sequestration potential of projects once kind of all those things are in place how do we ensure that when the products are getting financed the money really is going to the indigenous peoples and on top of that um how do we make sure that they at the end of the day can be the end value extractor right now they don't usually

get the money up front that usually goes to the financier who's putting up the project and then at the end of the day when they sell it it's all gone to the the product financer So What mechanisms can we design and for me those are things like proper micro loans proper ways of doing a data analysis and then proper governance smart contracts that can exist so we know that which community members are getting what and distributing this in Equitable ways and I liked what you were talking about earlier about the one thing that's really exciting about web3 as well is we can almost build these economic structures in parallel of the real economic structure in the real the traditional one and do a very fast test on them and run them through hyperspeed and see which ones when and do it in a way where the traditional systems can

opt in and co-opt those economic structures and governance structures and instead of us trying to embed in the current one which is has always tons of political feedback and challenges with it so that's where I would say is um The Avenues to help let me put you on the spot sure I'll try not to be mean okay um I mean we've we've heard there's transparency in this intermediation pitch for the for the last 10 years right so what's the blocker I mean currently it's like a couple of million people using it so how do we get how do we ship this to the Nomis how do we ship it to the normies I I think there is a couple levels to this

one is that the web three layer does need to get abstracted pretty far out of the picture you have to be able to be using web 3 and the economic structures without kind of being hyper aware that you're using them and being Savvy enough and tech savvy enough to interact with them um but I would say like this becomes a bigger question of just like the information and knowledge Gap that you have between technically enabled areas and non-technically enabled areas where we think that technology is really accessible to everyone but in reality it really isn't accessible to as many people as they think it is so I think that there's like some real core challenges and investing in infrastructure and getting the education there but I would also even challenge myself in saying you know do we believe

that just because the way we organize our lives we should have to put people into our economic system to make sure they have meaningful lives I think that's a pretty uh like challenging question at the end of the day I think people live meaningful lives without technology traditional ways and those have tons of meaning and so I I see it being the complexity of the technology and then the access to it and then I even think there it's not as clear-cut of you know this is the obvious route to take yeah so I I think maybe maybe I'm kind of I'm push ing you for a clear narrative right so basically to me it's I mean obviously there are people who do not have smartphones but um say half of humanity has access to a smartphone they could in principle

participate say all of Berlin could in principle participate and I mean they're not so what what's the blocker I mean clearly many Vincent you look like you have yeah I think actually like also uh going back to some of the work uh you would on on circles are doing I think actually an answer could be uh like kind of like a onboarding like Humanity basically onto a Ubi solution it could be blockchain enabled in a sense like I think a lot of people like for example the world coin team has like millions of people are getting on board mostly in the developing countries because they get like direct economic benefit from being on board but I mean they're being on board I mean lots of so I don't I don't want to kind of sit on

the wirecoin project but I do so um I mean so basically lots of people are being onboarded because they're incentives for the people onboarding them and the people who are being onboarded they often don't even know what this means they just say you know I'll give you two two dollars so you know I can scan your eyeball yeah 100 more talking about like as an approach I think Global Ubi could be an interesting way to onboard the world onto crypto but like to give them something and it's a bit like like although again like I totally don't agree with this strategy but I think it worked is Facebook going to India and and providing everyone in the country free Facebook access like free internet to use Facebook and in a similar way I think we just need to go

broader like we need to just like hand out 10 bucks to everyone a human in the world and then and I think that could be easily incentivized like it could be investor tokens of like a specific chain and then like a lot of people won't be able to onboard but like then they unlock it with activity or whatnot but I think it just needs to go um closer to their current lives like if it's like a easy app that runs on every phone it's like an easy credit card and and they just get like and it's of course also like just like the growth hacks of web 2. like in a sense how how did uh Airbnb or Uber scale to the World by like giving 50 bucks if you invite your friends by by creating incentives for onboarding people and then of course adding a lot

of value like like maybe you could use the first 10 bucks to fund uh the climate research or I think there's like all kinds of ways to onboard people but agree it's like not easy and straightforward I think we should learn from like hyper growth in like web 2 from really good ux and like how to reach like people across the world like I love that because we as noses are already doing a lot of that so you're kind of making my pitch here it's it's I'm I I don't feel disadvantaged by the by the fact that I'm the moderator so I'm I'm taking mental notes here um so onboarding lots of people what what do you think Kevin do you think this is this is kind of the the the

stepping stone to uh success I mean I think there's part of it I mean so I mean there's ux challenges let's be clear I mean it's just it's hard to use currently I mean it's easier now than it has been in the past but it's still a lot of steps and I think even pretty you know Savvy people are turned off pretty quickly right so I think there's just like an overall ux push improving the wallet experience or better Integrations to like make sure the people to your point don't necessarily know they're interacting with it to interact with it but I think the important part too is that we're kind of bringing these things into the real world that there are real world use cases that people are interacting with this stuff in a way which isn't you know just as easy for them to say oh it's just a Ponzi it's

over here it's just for these other people there has to be like real tangible real world benefit and if that's something which is like a local advocacy group that's been able to raise funds steer those funds and deploy them in their communities I think those can have tangible real world impact that people can start seeing so when you start creating those real world feedback loops for people to see the benefits of this and it doesn't feel extractive as it currently does cool yeah that that would have been a super nice closing statement but I have one more point I want to make they have one minute 30 to make it um that being privacy so we all know so basically you guys know uh we'll take a group picture later with uh Alex partsev shirts because he's been uh we don't know exactly what the charges are

because charges have not been been brought but basically it's it's implied that it's got something to do with his writing code for the tornado project um what do you guys think um can we use web 3 to um give people back not just agency but also you know privacy you're nodding so I I go to you first yeah I think it's right now of course uh it's not really good at enabling privacy like like ethereum or blockchains in general I think it's extremely important of course like mainly actually like the decentralization of like like for example like political actors in a trying to not be blocked by Banks from Russia like like I I think it's very

um already um obvious like how that is as important as privacy but I think uh I agree like I'm excited by the Privacy Solutions out there and I'm also worried that like for example Tech or someone is next if like a hackers moved there but I think there there's also technical uh I think Solutions necessary to for example avoid the top 10 users of tornado uh being all uh major hackers or like North Korea like that's also not like vitalik so yeah totally like I'm like don't get me wrong I actually donated to uh to another even without having used it like early on on bitcoin uh but but like a program I didn't use it because I didn't want to put uh put the money together with uh terrorists and and

like I I think it's a reasonable worry it's like in the sense that like it's the major the minority for example tonight 0.1 but like there could be ways to filter them out in a ZK or like like and I think that could be the future it's like making it more uh regulatory compliant to be made for the 99.999 to be uh Pro privacy I think this is an important story to tell around privacy that's been missing for a while right I think that's still outside of the crypto ecosystem people are kind of like well willing to give up too much and I think that that would probably be an important part of a normalizing crypto outside of it but

then making privacy seen as a like a like a human right that to not to not be observed and to not be uh have your data collected feels like something that there's been a sea change and there's a lot of Education happening and I'm seeing a lot more conversations outside of crypto around this but I think that needs to be normalized as more of a core value outside of crypto just to expect privacy and to seek systems that preserve it I'll let that stand as the closing word thank you guys for participating in this panel so much um it's been a pleasure thank you thank you so much [Applause] so let's get the t-shirts here

the the the Alex t-shirts are you guys the Alex I can't I can't see I'm I'm basically blinded it's like oh you're here fantastic do you have a spare for me hello everyone for everyone that has a t-shirt please come up to the stage and for those that don't there are still quite a few t-shirts right here on the stage for you we're going to have a big group photo in support of Alex bertiev while everyone gets to the stage I just

would like to thank everyone for being here for this important demonstration of solidarity not only for aliexpressive but also for every developer here as most of you know the Dutch Financial crimes agency arrested Alex on the 10th of August he suspected him of facilitating the money laundering through tornado cash a demonstration was held on the 20th of August in Amsterdam organized by the local blockchain community which includes crypto canals and one inch attracting both the crypto as well as the national Dutch media their coverage raised some awareness about Alex's arrest however as of today

34 days after his arrest charges has still not been pressed so we're waiting to see what happens there so please join us on the stage take pictures share it on your social so more people are made aware of this dangerous and outrageous precedent against privacy and open source please visit said alexfree.nl to sign the petition join the official telegram group for updates from the team that is supporting him back in Amsterdam lastly a big thank you to hypnosis for supporting us with this t-shirts [Applause]