Dappcon – Roundtable: The Ethereum Merge #461

Transcript

foreign we are live from Berlin here in full node Studio my name is doing doing well thank you for having me here great well thanks for joining us on such short notice so this is a bit of a special epicenter episode um not only because we're all here

together at full mode studio also because we're doing a live stream which is not something we usually do uh but also because we're here in Berlin during dapcon uh which we'll talk about and you know dotcon has been on on a forced Hiatus for the last couple years obviously because of covid and um also we are here on the day uh well in the next hours the the merge will happen and so it's a very uh special time to be here in Berlin um before we get started and uh chat about everything that's been happening on this week and what's happening in the next couple days I'd like to First tell you about our sponsor this week tally Hove is really finding the wallet as a public good you can think of it as a community-owned alternative to metamask

taleho offers a much smoother experience and compared to other wallets it has an impressive UI where users can easily see all their account balances at once and swap between assets within their wallet at a much lower price the wallet also offers one of the best Ledger Integrations and full ens and UNS domain name support two weeks ago they launched their Community pledge with over 770 000 signers uh dedicating their commitment to defending web3 and you can still sign the pledge on the site they recently just added their first side chain polygon on tally ho polygon support is now built in automatically and is ready to use without the need to go through any step-by-step manual integration with

Tally Ho you can enter the metaverse with a web 3 wallet that is fully Community owned and operated and it's the first wallet that is also a dow Tally Ho's commitment to community ownership and public goods stretches Beyond the Wall in January it became the sponsor of etherjs.js and open source JavaScript library helping developers connect to ethereum and they recently announced a pledge to commit 2.5 of the total token Supply to uh git coin Aqueduct so head to tally.cash to redefine your web 3 wallet experience now that's quite a mouthful yes um so uh yeah let's let's maybe first talk a little bit about uh dapcon which

is still going on today uh over a couple of a couple of kilometers from here so what what's that con and um what's the what's the significance of of depcon 2022 uh Defcon it's very much um an ethereum Community Conference very much in the spirit of ECC and Defcon um we've actually had Defcon twice before in 2018 and 2019 and then we were going to have it on in 2020 and was canceled because of covet and so we moved it to 2021 was canceled again because of covet and now 2022 and finally uh we're back um we're in a new venue by the street

um it's it's great yeah it's yeah I like the venue I just renewed for next week it's next year so basically we'll be there again next year so step con will happen again 2023. um yeah so basically it's lots of talks about um ethereum infrastructure and dapps and it's um very Builder heavy there's not a lot of Business Development which I personally really like yeah and I think one of the interesting sort of developments and you know which also is because of this like two-year break is that the last tapcon there was no gnosis chain yeah there was no no exactly even last step con there would not have been a noses chain because noses chain kind of it it basically

noses and X die emerged to create gnosis chain in November of last year so basically yeah it's it's been it's been a crazy year for us but the really nice thing is that um I mean Berlin used to be like this web3 Hub and we lost a little bit of that you know during covet and you know you know in the direction of Lisbon which I'm still talking about to be honest because I have kids in school I'm not gonna you know pack up and leave um yeah but uh yeah so basically it used to be like this vibrant place and kind of it after covert is kind of slowly coming back basically full note our co-working space here is almost fully booked again so there's like thing in October there'll be like one you know

one two person office becoming available but basically in principle it's fully booked yeah um uh and uh yeah so basically this is you know tapcon has historically been part of Berlin blockchain week and we also bought that back this year so basically there's um a whole host of conferences in the next two in the next couple of days are going to happen and it's June con um and Zeke hack and like a million side events um there's like too many parties to go to um there's one tonight at a swimming pool which I like you know it's from the cow protocol so really I I I um I ought to go but I feel like I'm too

old for this yeah that I have a very special um feeling with tapcon because here um it was the first time that I can't publicly talk about that note so I I have this very special memory uh but I I really love these um this feeling of a small community it's like it's it's like a family at some point and I really love this kind of conversation which you feel so comfortable talking with friends sharing ideas sharing new technologies and this Vibe is really amazing I totally agree that um I have the feeling that we lost a little this Berlin Spirit during the pandemic but I really um because it was amazing when they were

3D uh well with three summit.com it's really in then it was praga uh that the last time and yeah um I really really happy to see happening again and see that the new series is going to also to happen it's crazy yeah I I mean I was always a big fan of dapcon and uh coming to Berlin it used to be like a regular thing for me so like I feel sometimes like I know more crypto people in Berlin than I do in Paris for some reason but um so yeah it was great and just like seeing everybody again and all these familiar faces that I hadn't seen in three years and um yeah I'm also like I'm always generally just excited about the nurses chain ecosystem I mean even um you know

on a day to day more involved in Cosmos I think the most strange ecosystem is like super interesting just like lots of great people lots of people talking and working on uh things like governance and dapps and so um yeah I think it's like a really cool ecosystem where like lots of actual stuff is being built um you know talking to Patricio from uh poet uh yesterday and this was also a sentiment that you know at the last appcon we were talking about those these like kind of prospective things that were going to happen that were going to come into fruition in the next couple years and and now they are like people are actually building businesses like using notices chain and building actual use cases and like actual things that

people use so that's actually pretty cool yeah I I I totally feel that and I think basically we've been through in terms of decentralization and um culture I think we've been through um a Nadia that it means value right so well yeah so basically we've been kind of at a low point so basically I think kind of when people started building businesses um kind of re-centralizing you know is easy in a way right so basically kind of like you you the the the easiest way to build things is in a centralized centralization even even if it's on a blockchain and I think kind of people at

least in my bubble they've kind of just started kind of becoming wary of that and kind of uh trying to head back into the redecentralized doubling down yeah and I mean I think I mean you've always been like on the I mean for everyone who's listening who's not familiar with it so it was um it was building a company called dab node which is on the face of it um a hardware company but really it's a software company it makes it really easy for you to stay at home so basically it's kind of geared towards the you know uh run your own node run your own

validated home kind of crowd and uh maybe you can tell us kind of how you've seen the last couple of years years in terms of um centralization and decentralization yeah good topics to be honest yeah the thing is um well in Domino's we usually have a Lemma uh we we we tell people that we decentralize until it hurts and centralized until it works so that should be the way to work right we need to focus on the centralization and then make the things work obviously if you all completely different device and there is something that need to be built so maybe you have no I'm not going to have a problem never but I think it's important to have this balance and it's

important to focus in the important part um I have the feeling that we are losing losing the decentralization at some point for example at the very beginning the first proof of content in 2017 we were able to resolve ens domains with ipfs websites and and people didn't use it at all uh so we lost that and now seeing all these things that happened in all these censorship scenes is when people realize that we are losing our path in some way so I I see a lot of business growing um and trying to follow the reverse path path centralized and then make it decentralized but that's not working uh because at the end

um decentralized is not easy it's a real Challenge and that is why you need to have that in your mind from the very beginning you need to focus on the centralization see how it can work and then if it's needed try to centralize but um we I have the feeling that we are changing our mind I don't know why maybe new people in the community that doesn't have this feeling of decentralization or don't or maybe they don't realize of the importance of the centralization so that is why I try to focus on education also the importance of the centralization the benefits of censorship resistance networks that the the importance of privacy and that is why yeah try to educate people on that thing yeah and I

mean just to kind of spell it out um especially when you move to proof of stake um and basically lots of people don't really want to take from home they just delegate you end up with a lot of large stakers and basically that's not really decentralized Network in terms of resilience obviously if it's just the number of people you kind of need to call to kind of shut it down or that's yeah in terms of of uh proof of stake it's also a big issue obviously um right now um uh the top five uh sticker control the 63 percent of the network it's crazy it's too much and um and the thing that

we haven't seen is that this number has grown is is that means that we are not fishing that problem the thing is the the problem is making even worse and and also from the point of view of the BPS or or Cloud providers um for example Hepner recently ban um crypto application on their status so that means that we are going to lose uh 50 of the notes of the network because of that obviously the people are going to move to another provider but at the moment that we are centralizing our infrastructure in cloud provider or in big stickers we are losing all the benefits that we can get from this interesting yeah without wanting to kind of uh I I mean so I I I I totally take your point I think perhaps there's only

for shared instances though basically if you have your own server you can do what you want yeah they haven't been super I mean as far as I know they haven't been like very explicit and clear about that it's just been kind of like these hand wavy statements right or have they come out with something more clear since and do anything I don't know no one that I started to suffering but they make an understanding on the direction and it's risk I mean maybe it's not um something that can hurt us but my point of view on The Headstone thing is it's great I mean like so we run validators at interoper we run validators on hetzner uh just because I used hetzner and I you know I liked it and it's quite cheap but when I realized look looking at the validator set in a lot of Cosmos blockchains that

something like you know the high percentage like the 50 to 60 percent of of nodes on some chains we're running on hetzner like we immediately said like we're moving away from headset or not because they're kicking us out but because we want to we want to be on servers that other people are not on so we're moving to like you know um the French uh service providers so I I actually think that the fact that hetzner uh is is kicking off if it if it does in fact start closing accounts that uh it would probably be a decentralizing factor now the the flip side of that is like everybody moves to AWS like it's even worse and Google Cloud yeah exactly I mean for me had nothing was uh wake up call to let people know that we are still centralizing in the sense but yeah

yeah um I am also running notes so I mean I am not against BPS I suggest to try to balance the situation between providers stickers I think it needs to be space for all of us yeah and I mean to basically what we've seen recently with um and the tornado ofac enforcement action yeah so so this is so we we recently had an I recently had an episode with Peter uh Peter from from coin Center yeah um on the entire tornado thing and uh that's where I learned that Alex not actually held in connection with the ofac um thing but apparently in the Netherlands there's a negligent money laundering law which seems crazy because

I mean every time you get money you can't I mean if I sell you a chocolate bar um I shouldn't have to to to to query you to kind of ascertain that you have obtained the funds you're using to pay for that chocolate bar you know in a legitimate manner so yeah so it seems like it seems like it's very high yeah burden yeah so I'm not sure whether this will hold up but apparently they have a hundred days to kind of charge them and they haven't yet yeah um but yeah obviously kind of putting the tornado um addresses on the olfac list that's been um shocking because I mean it's never really happened to infrastructure before

I mean it's happened to individual people or organizations it's not happened to like technology so and I think I think there's a good chance um that this will be revoked in due time but I think what's really threatening to us right now is over compliance so basically just too many people who just don't care and who don't want to um uh who don't want to Bear the burden of you know carrying the risk of maybe being shut down in like something just because they didn't so basically just out of an abundance of caution um their their General accounts will say yeah you should just you know ban these uh these accounts kind of like and then they do and I think kind of over

complying that way it as an ecosystem um I as as an ecosystem that is meant to be built on kind of permissionless innovation that's kind of like the core value that's appalling and also in a way it's also a way to kind of um separate uh the good beans from the bad beans right kind of just see who over complies um without having to uh and the people who don't over comply um those are the people who are actually committed to the values yeah I think it was I think it was um uh Karen your your general counsel I was speaking with uh this week who is uh pushing for Clear guidance on minimum

um compliance right so yeah we would love to see that out of our done yeah I mean Adan has been the most um uh the most reliable of all the you know European lobbying formations um interest groups um yeah so I I think basically having like some sort of Playbook like what do I actually have to do and what do other people do just because you know they don't care I think that would actually be super cool yeah absolutely what else do we have on the we had a couple things we wanted to hit on today so we you know we've kind of talked about uh dapcon a little bit um veered off into some other topics

um I mean I I think um the merge is is something that um we should maybe touch on although you know we had we had some we had some concerns about when this would come out and whether so yeah I think for for those listening if this comes out if you're listening to this after the merge please keep in mind this was recorded a few hours before the merge um so yeah maybe from your perspective you know because you run a company that um you know helps people run their own nose and their own validators uh what is this what is the significance of this to you and and how do you see this like with affecting your business but you know like long term the ecosystem and maybe give us a brief recap of what has happened so far so basically because

basically the the merge we've been talking about this for six years right yeah so so basically maybe and I think it's changed a lot during that time frame and you were there for all of it yeah I mean all this in the happening to be here today I mean the Roma procedure hatching so many times that it's even hard to think about all the things that have changed it for example I remember when you need to stake 1500 youth to be able to be a validator because of the signature of the of the validators you were not able to aggregate all of them because of the technology and then BLS

happen and it changed everything we moved to 32 years and if I am right I think in metallic announced this in edcon Toronto uh 2018. and that changed everything um from the proof of stake perspective then uh when we decide to to integrate for example the execution client into one chart so we can get the execution client inside the the proof of stake chain uh that was another big chain because we we took all or what we are taking all and we continue in it right now I think one of the most challenging most genuine things was the

metallic boss related to the uh ethereum prolapse Centric touching all the rules I think because at the moment where it was when relapse started to happening and and we realized that technology of zero knowledge can help a lot to increase the transaction per second um and then it we realized also that the sharding with execution is something so complex that it it could lead to um uh having a less performance Network so yeah we I think it creates a new uh in which in uh we can now have uh that availability on charting and then their Labs can grow uh

on top of it and then it's now we need Bridges uh so we have changing all the all the ecosystem because of of all these all of these is going to be another real talent but I think the the feeling is that uh in Cancun for example we have that feeling that the Merit is going to happen just right the corner and for you later it is happening um I think that this is um um something that can change all the rules of everything I I have the feeling that we are part of the history of blockchain and and being in Berlin uh

that moment the the same place in which ethereumborn is like magical right and also also from the development of view um we have the feeling that the our community members feel part of this I mean it's if you are um a homeless taker alone is like you are alone in your home but the feeling is that we have in the community that all together are in that direction and and as is really important to be part of something and I think that is really nice also um yeah but they think have changed a lot I mean um for example um during Genesis of uh of uh of proof of stake we even don't

know when the withdrawal going to happen and we don't have that yet um the the ecosystem is is growing in in terms of the knowledge also because now we are introducing Miracle trees that was the knowledge that one year ago maybe we don't know how to to explore it so everything is changing but uh but I also have the feeling that this is um really strong because of the maturity of the technology we have evolving during the years this is not just an idea of six months that just delivered so yeah the feeling is that we are making the the roads of something new that's really really nice your thoughts yeah I agree it's been coming for so

long and now it's coming at really inopportune time like at six a.m tomorrow morning uh we'll know it is going to be open all night um there's going to be War rooms here of kind of people kind of uh tracking the merge and making sure the core clients where I can pick up and is there gonna be like a screen like like when ethereum when you're hearing launched we should probably do that we should yeah yeah I mean we will have a long basically it'll be a long night so I think we have time to kind of set up stuff um and then um at the merge um so there there there's this um uh this artist this uh musician who kind of synthesized the history of ethereum

into um a uh musical composition so basically um I I may be paraphrasing this wrong because basically my musical knowledge is zero so basically forgive me if I do um so I think he's kind of um taken each block and kind of uh somehow um calculated a musical note from it so basically and there's like the the number of blocks uh the number of musical notes it takes about a half hour to perform and will be performed at the merge because obviously this is kind of when when like if you're improve of work ends 6 30 a.m or something be here or be square

um uh yeah so basically it'll it'll happen it'll all happen despite the very unfortunate timing in this uh you know Central European Time Zone it's like uh yeah should have been on the West Coast or something it's like 9 p.m that's like nice and cozy yeah but uh yeah no it's all happening and I mean the the office where ethereum launched um it's no longer I mean basically it's no longer the the East Dev office they moved out a couple of years ago so basically like the the golden office and everything is gone um but maybe we can kind of have the merge here and it'll be nice yeah yeah I think this is a good place to have it like yeah um

yeah I mean I um I I I I don't have so many like eggs in the in the I mean like so many eggs in the ethereum basket in terms of like not building anything on ethereum uh but um yeah I feel you know it feels like really kind of nice to be here while it's happening and um yeah I also am remembering all the complexity that we have added to the network also because I used to recommend at the beginning when you can run an old in just um on a laptop and then the the change started to grow now we have education consensus um we have a lot of pieces in in the in

the ecosystem now also the Mev bus is also on eops proposable acceptation so for from the point of view of of a user um it it has increased the difficulty to be part of the network and that is why we run down that many to try to remove that complexity from the users to um to allow anyone uh to run or not I think it's important that because otherwise um we are only going to have technical people around this and this is not decentralization either so trying to more as much as possible people I think it's a something very important for the future of Syrian and and and the thing is we are making so changes uh making the network with

um a lot of things another new cryptography is making even harder but it's worthy obviously um yeah let's talk about the new cryptography so the the new cool kid on the Block obviously um is uh ZK based trustless Bridges and you're involved in them too because you have your fingers in everything yeah yeah totally yeah for me British has been always um a problem in the ecosystem because you need to have operators and you need to have trust on them it's always the Wicket the weak piece of the network we have seen internal hacks in the last years because of that because the bridge

are not safe and I mean um I really really would like to have these dry select solution happening and I have the feeling that with this technology technology we can start to create this bridge between different networks for example between no cities and ethereum because since we are sharing Technologies here in cryptography is even possible to create these Bridges so for example the thing is um the consensus client um according to the design is able to have the state on a smart contract so being able to have the state of other blockchain allows you to create proof of

the state in other blockchain using the knowledge the ticket to know you and that is game changing right because you you don't depend on no one's you only depend to someone publishing proofs and it's allows to create the driver's bridge that is um yeah I mean maybe maybe to give give some background on this so I mean we've had trustless bridges in the past but they were all optimistic right so basically it kind of it they relied on people monitoring them and challenging um the the uh the state um if the transit if they think the transition was was invalid um so basically in a way it was trustless but in in a game theoretical kind of way whereas the new type of

bridges the ZK like client Bridges they are trustless in you know um you know in mathematical crypto cryptographic way and I mean that is um it is a game changer yeah totally I have that feeling I mean yeah I have the but going back to the centralization and the central hair center right hand it works it makes sense to have these um breaches because they are needed and um but we saw that the current ones um is is hard maintained it has a lot of risk and this is a game changer for sure because you remove all these trash all these insecurities and and you are yes a

connection between networks and see in the future uh of Australian to um to be able to support several uh Roll-Ups and several UK ebms it's even more important to create this reach in uh translates because we are going to have a lot of connection between them and and that's a critical uh in French to point so um seeing how this neutrality allow us to create this kind of things is really amazing I am really excited about all of these and really how we can create a centralized proof of Bitcoin inside ethereum by the data proof of work it was crazy but I mean we have been thinking about that from

several several years and this is going to change everything or that is my feeling yes there's also going to be a panel I'm looking forward to very much this afternoon um on uh you know zero knowledge Bridges um with uh Hardy and Alex um from Mata labs and Uma and uh originally vitalik was also slated to be on the panel but unfortunately he's sick so um he he called out but I'm still very much looking forward to that because I feel like um uh this is this is the real new thing this year so I mean basically everything else that's kind of around we've we've in principle had this for for a long

time so for instance I know I mean if you look at hours how much they're proliferating and it it warms my heart it's fantastic but basically Taos in the grand scheme of things they're not new right so basically we all knew this was gonna come at some point there would be doubts I mean they would be large scale coordination but basically yeah CK Bridges super cool so bullish I'm I mean coming coming from the more from the cosmos side and where we have IBC which is potentially a protocol to send messages between chains and IVC is made possible because every Every Chain uses the same consensus algorithm and so chains are able to validate the consensus of other chains and so therefore like there's this trust minimized aspect there I'm interested to

seeing when we can like I I think the thing that that I'm really hoping for is to have some sort of like shared standards across like these different ecosystems and so um you know I I understand that like from the from the point of view of ethereum it's difficult to and the VM change is difficult to implement uh IBC uh type consensus between between all the different Roll-Ups because they might have different assumptions about like finality and things like that um but yeah I'm like really really quite hopeful that protocols like things like composable finance and you know these

um cross domain um layers that allow liquidity to flow between uh ecosystems but also allow instructions to flow with the ecosystems is going to be really really important in the next couple years and DK Bridges like is part of you know the types of uh the types of solutions that can kind of flow into these more broad interoperability Networks totally um the thing is or the feeling that I have is this technology is evolving a lot uh since that we thought that were impossible one year ago now uh our reality um be able to have recusive stocks and be able to generate the report user state

of of trillion um I mean we are just discovering this technology and imagine that in the future you can use certainly true to validate the state of two different networks yes use internalized technology to connect them and then check your Manner and the thing is um there is a lot of projects working on this direction technology spark um meeting um a lot of people are interested in literally because it's a game changing technology it's not just because of the breaches you can think further you can think about privacy you can think about identity be able to pass a cover series that's a knowledge proof these kind of things can change everything can change

the world as we know oh that is my feeling I'm totally bullied on TK technology and I think it's maybe we don't realize yet about all the potentials that this can have not just for ethereum just for users so really well listen in that yeah I mean is it is it correct to assume that with with these I was talking to someone um last week who is who's building like a ZK layer for interoperability and you know looking at it from the user's perspective what that would allow is essentially like you know you could go on open C and pay with any any currency like you could pay with

like dot or atom or whatever and like the user wouldn't know the difference because the ZK VM would of a ZK Bridge would be making those transactions sort of in the background and like doing all the swaps and everything in order for like open C to finally receive like ether whatever like that it needs is that like the kind of the goal in the user experience trying to Industry inside yeah I think maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that right now we are not thinking too much in users um uh because I have several change we have no system we have to see you and we have our lunch we have a rough chains with different others in different networks for the usually that is crazy to understand what's happening we saw in the past people sending funds to an

address in another Network and and I mean we need to fix that for sure usually should be another thing to start to work hard because I've had the feeling that um every day since we are having adding more technology we are adding breaches we are networks we are making even harder for users and and um try to abstract that complexity also from the use user perspective and usage of the network is critically important more the same critical that is technology is is that users can use it otherwise makes no sense to have to deny it I 100 agree so I I was um I moderated a panel um last night um about

um how to actually make blockchain improve the life of the many um and basically I think I think the number one takeaway was we have to ship this to the numis We have basically basically it's like if we if we're building technology for the same one million people worldwide um this is not gonna this is not gonna cut it it's not gonna cut it we kind of we need to make it easy to use and basically it starts with the onboarding experience right I mean you open a wallet and it says yeah these are the 12 words never share them with anyone don't lose them or you'll actually lose access to all of you before you've even done a single thing it's like what the [ __ ] is

this I mean it's been like it's been 10 years why do we still have this it's like um yeah I mean we need account abstraction we kind of we need to abstract everything away from the user and I mean if you look at the internet um it's a mess you know in the back end it's a complete mess it's it's it's a miracle that the internet actually usually works um and we don't ask anyone to understand tcpip it's like no one knows how it works it just works and this is kind of this is where we need to get this is where we kind of we need to make it you know you know ship it to the normies this is like I don't know if you remember but at the last appcon I think I was monitoring the panel you were on the panel but we did a panel

together about this very topic about user experience and and it was I think I say I don't remember but I I I think I think that yeah we've been talking about this for years and I mean it's getting a little bit better I think the thing I used to say was you know we need we need to look at the metric of like monthly active non-crypto nerds uh joining right and and uh I think from the from the wallet side like there has been some advancements I'm a big fan of xengo and like what they're doing with threshold signature and I think you know cryptography is making it a lot easier uh for users to on board and of course there's not like bull custody but it is better than like uh it it's it's much better than like

being on an exchange and then on the other side it's much better than having like worry about your seed phrase so like cryptography is making it easier for people to for people to build you know products that make it easier for people to end up using the you know the final like you know crypto in general and then you know I think like looking at uh ZK Bridges and ZK VMS and how they're going to allow a lot of this they're going to allow like this to be abstracted away um I think yeah I think like in the end like cryptography is actually a catalyst for a lot of uh great user experiences implemented properly and you know with the right um with the right sort of like interfaces did I tell you that um on nose chain there's gonna be basically

there's currently um a uh pilot um with 2 000 credit cards they have their real Visa credit cards they have credit card numbers they are backed with um X die on gnosis chain and and you can pay basically you hold them yourself so basically the credit card is also um a a uh a key so it's also a hardware wallet um and you hold them yourself no one has custody so you know you know those crypto back credit cards usually the the person who issues them they always have custody but basically with this credit card you you have custody and and you tap it on the Visa terminal and there's some there's a payment provider in

between who kind of takes your XI it turns you know who converts it to US dollars or Euros or whatever and pays um and enters it into the Visa payment Network this is I mean basically this is this is cool enough but if the if the person you're paying also is has one of those accounts or knows has changed um uh that you would actually bypass the Visa system so basically you would tap your credit card which is also your Hardware wallet and it would automatically just send it from one account to the other and this is the kind of user experience that we need this is what we need it's like augmentative user experience yeah basically it's kind of like you don't need to know how it works so for

instance I don't know so for instance um GPS you know Sat Nav on your phone you use it all the time do you know how special relativity kind of impacts the way that kind of the the the satellites kind of determine where you are no you freaking don't it's like and it's it just works and this is kind of how I see trusted Bridges so basically you shouldn't have to know about this because they should just be there basically it should just work and that should be the general user experience totally totally I don't know if you remember uh in Black I don't know what probably made a video a parody of the current situation how is the process to more people is called a lemon coin I really recommend that because it's a parody of all the processes that you

need to pass to we link to it in the show notes I think I remember this yeah it wasn't black and it's like the full process that you need to to follow to be able to use um projects and it was it was so fun but the the sad part is that we are in the same place we have not improved anything of that or that is the feeling that we are stealing asking users for Holiday keys they lose them people doesn't realize that if you tell this award to someone he kind of stole you even we have seen uh we have so in our channels people um um telling other ones that they are dominant support and they stole money

from them so people are easy yeah it's not just visuality it's education also because I mean I think in general people that are outside these are not used to control keys to be responsible of that and and we need to educate and it's not just also a usability this happens this happened to me like this still happens to me where for instance I uh in in in in the Pro app uh as for an ens name I put my urgent here last name but arson doesn't support no this is Jane I didn't think about it I was like here this is my email's name like the one that I use on my phone so and then I was talking to Patricia he says well getting those back is going to be hard yeah I mean for example I just

remember at the very beginning I I used the Nazi smoothies and it was very good at the moment really secure and then no she says happened and now the usuality of some of the almost the signature wallet is has improved a lot also the gas so basically when we first created the mighty Zig like basically gas was not a thing basically it was super cheap anyways so basically you you didn't pay pay any attention to it and I know that basically just probably about a year ago or some something I emptied our last mighty six and then basically it was so freaking expensive I paid like I paid just to get the funds out I paid like two thousand dollars in gas or something

just to get the funds out we know to Modern safe it's like oh [ __ ] this is the same situation earlier same situation in the association to move the funds from the old one to the new one was so expensive but now for example you have no seat safe in different networks with the same address so oh no no something yeah so generally the Assumption should be and this is something that basically that is is a big nose to save usability problem they're busy on EOS you can kind of force that you can get the same address on different networks and with with a safe you can't so basically there are some networks you can brute force it but even then it's not easy and there are some networks where basically if you send it to the same address it's just gone and we've actually had this and

they're basically large amount of funds like seriously like stupid amounts of funds like tens of millions were sent to the wrong Network because the person wasn't paying attention and didn't do a test transaction it's like I mean yeah I mean I mean it's on them for not doing a test transaction but it's also on us a little bit because you know it shouldn't be this easy to make a mistake it's like uh that's usually at the end is if you have different addresses in different networks it's crazy sometimes to to to use it and also so for example we only have ens in one network and unless you use centralized providers to to translate it and that's also another problem of this ability because you cannot tell someone your DNS name in one

network and it's not going to be the same another one or is who knows oh you have to decide where the registry is where you can update it and so on we're having an ens Bridge built hypnosis chain at least with the Gateway it'll be nice but yeah it's I mean it's it's all of it I think there's so many usability questions but uh yeah but I think kind of onboarding people and kind of seeing where they go wrong and then fixing that this is what we need to do yeah going back to the point we need to improve sociality to get more people involved this and to increase the centralization at the end this is all about the centralization and I mean this is this is also that something that poapp does really well I mean they've minted five million powerapps I mean that's adoption

that's like I mean it's not quite like uh I mean it's not like Google but I mean it's it's not five billion people but five million people in terms of your you know for for for a web free project that is massive yeah looking through looking at the list looking at the list of people Poets of people uh create it it's not all web stuff it's like hey Jim's birthday or what you know like there's there's people using Pro app that are not probably not like native crypto people or like people who come to conferences like this yeah yeah and you can make it on your so I I was I mean I was at dinner last night and we made a poet for the people you know just sitting there like between between main course and dessert we made

a co-op and we distributed it for to the people out there you know and like 50 people redeemed it and so basically you know it's like all the 50 people we wear that dinner um have a poet from their dinner and basically it was on on the phone like it was yeah it was super easy to make yeah totally and they have these uh they were selling these nice nice poab cards here uh NFC and so you can put your PO up in here and you guys want my poet yeah I met Sebastian in in Berlin live stream Co-op distribution here oh this is cool anyway um yeah so this is a cool thing too like being able to have your uh thing inside yeah now it'll take me to the we are

minting your poem yeah you've met Seb 3.0 in Berlin in September 2022. here you go yeah and and what's nice about this too is it tells you how many people met you before me yeah but you can also put like your telegram handle in the description so yeah you can kind of like oh it's like a good way to share your Telegram yeah really nice I mean this was 100 bucks but what it was 100 bucks but yeah I was like that's good so uh Zaki met you yes um it was his first Co-op too no yeah he's two now but it was his first one and he he met Patricio yeah basically

like the golden too yeah yeah it's kind of it's a it's a way of kind of displaying and curating your own like life experiences I think this is also something that would benefit from a layer of ZK stuff on top right so basically I mean Maybe not maybe I don't want everyone to see um this fictitious example because I'm I'm you know I'm a boring mom but they all say I check into like KitKat or something like maybe I don't want everyone to see that but you know just you know the KitKat crowd so it's kind of like yeah I mean it's like uh yeah I mean I think that that sort of thing will come and it I mean for for things like poabs but all sorts of things just like you know your your General Financial oh yeah privacy and transfers

yeah um what's uh what do you guys expect is gonna happen tonight I think I think that much is going to happen yeah just you know I mean I so basically they've tested it so many times yeah yeah and I think it's gone it's gonna be okay um I mean there's still so many different you know combinations of uh of clients I mean because now you have two clients right so basically you have like the uh the consensus layer and the execution layer and in principle they should work in any combination um and I think basically just just for context here there's two clients there's a consensus and and uh execution and for

each of those there's like three or four clients exactly yeah yeah so the combinations are you get like like 20 combinations yeah okay yeah um and so basically I think the worst that will happen is that one of these combinations uh will fail um I think I mean what do you think it's not gonna I don't think so well I mean who knows bro maybe maybe tomorrow I can answer that question but uh I have the feeling that this has been tested several times in different networks um so I mean I have a good buy on that obviously so in this case it's gonna happen but even the test run so basically like there were always some small things that kind of didn't go exactly according to

plan so basically I would be um I mean we'll see I think basically all in all it's gonna be fine it'll be completely fine but basically yeah is it gonna be without hiccups you know yeah I mean obviously um I remember during the Genesis for example I remember that I think it was prism were not able to propose blocks or something like that they they release a fixing in a couple of hours we policy it and everything started to work perfectly the network works but was this kind of big fix that you need to do the the night of yeah so I I so I think in due time all combinations will work I just think that basically maybe not at you know on block one so it's uh yeah yeah

maybe suddenly you realize that one client is not working but this doesn't mean it means nothing bad for the network but basically this is kind of the level of Hiccup that I would expect I wouldn't expect like for ethereum to go down uh yeah so but yeah it's uh I mean it's a real challenge maybe not all the people are realizing how hard this is and and the thing is is so many diseases so many the knowledge so many clients so many implementations standards I mean uh it has been a lot but it's a lot of work but I have a real feeling obviously the development life has been done so I mean from my point of view even I mean we are in the middle from the point of

view of that not because because we are waiting if something happens so we are um nervous because of that but indeed the the feeling is that everything is going to be well maybe some fix it but the normal things yeah I agree so what's next for uh what's next for nurses chain ecosystem and um except for this amazing credit card thing it's cool right so how does that work where how does the credit card also turn how is the credit card also a hardware wallet um it's from a company named tangent and basically it's it's it's like it's like a key uh in in a credit card I mean basically they've been

around forever so basically status made them for a while and it's amazing like you know like uh you know card shaped private Keys uh especially no um they integrate the key on the Chip And they use the Visa protocol and it seems that the Visa protocol uh has an empty payload so they take benefit of that they put the signature on that payload so when you send to the reseller if you are able to protect the crypto one you proceed the crypto one otherwise you use the regular Visa but I'm not sure I mean I am not an experiment that is the thing that I heard yesterday yeah I I don't know anything about the Visa protocol but yeah so basically I learned a lot about payment provider providers

in the last half years since we've kind of been working on this and the payment stack it's a mess it's like a complete mess there's like 20 companies you go through on a regular basis for whatever reason and then basically yeah so basically the the way that it's actually handled is basically the the um the point of sale software so basically there's companies who kind of handle the pointers the company we're working with they have a million point of sale terminals in in Europe and so basically when you tap your credit card it I don't know your bakery or something they may run this software and this can be updated remotely so basically for and basically that that's kind of their part of the payment stack and this is who we

integrated okay but that they're building software that's like standardized across with like other payment software yes terminal yeah it's like ingenico or any of these other ones like they all run by the same standards I assume they would have like the same standards but obviously I don't I don't know it's like it's like to me it's all you know like you know like payment back end yeah yeah I mean I I I think I think the the the payments that even though it's a mess it's probably decently standard because like if you go to a place like Indonesia they always have like six terminals yeah and I think nothing works uh but yeah so coming back to gnosis uh and the nurses chain

ecosystem what what what's really exciting and like what are you most excited about coming I'm I'm excited about many things so basically uh one of the things I'm excited about is make a V3 is coming to noses chain very shortly um we still owe them some back-end support it's like yeah but but it's happening um and uh so basically there'll be I mean so in principle I mean it's a it's a general purpose chain so basically all the D5 Primitives and so are are there very much not a T5 First Chain so basically it's very much like a um like a human-centric chain so basically the circles is um on uh nurses chain Ubi project it's Ubi a project uh like you

know decentralized web of trust based uh Ubi project I think fundamentally Ubi is something that we'll need um in the next couple of uh years if you want Society to kind of keep existing in a nice fashion without you know like escalating inequality and yeah um so uh so kind of baking it into the protocol um it's not baked in but it's kind of one of the cool pillars of the things that are on those chains So currently there's 200 000 accounts um and then uh yeah Power episode on gnosis chain that obviously also pertains to individual people also basically it's kind of your individual

curated experiences then lots of dials on this Gene there's like fifteen hundred dollars and DOW dueling and lots of Dow tooling lots of doubt I think it's kind of one of the things we kind of made sure um to build so basically make it as As Nice a place as possible for daos um because basically you have dials you have people kind of that kind of you know ties you know well into each other you can have things like um you know the things we've talked about forever like joint um stakeholdership in Ventures and so on you can you can distribute um funds from Taos to People by kind of having like group currencies with um there with their web of trust uh issued

circles and so on so basically there's really good ways to integrate um all of these things um I am so basically currently we are obviously I mean obviously you guys know so basically we merge with X day and XA was very much proof of authority so there's like 21 um uh you know authorities that kind of validate the network and we have launched um the proof of stake um Beacon chain um exactly the same as the the ethereum beacon chain and that Beacon chain now has over a hundred thousand validators so basically we will also have the merge just like uh ethereum just it's I mean it's it's a mess because it's the different consensus a slight difference

between ethereum and nurses that makes Littles harder to make it makes it harder but we will get there yeah in the in the next weeks um so basically then it will be the most decentralized Network after ethereum so basically ethereum has 400 000 validators knows this chain has a hundred thousand and where um we think that this um stake at home movement it's important I mean this is also way way we've partnered with idle just because it's I mean too far true for for claiming credible neutrality and permission as Innovation you need to have a network that belongs to everyone and something that

belongs to everyone belongs to no one it's kind of it's kind of it's It's you know it's like the the credible neutrality of the base layer I think this is kind of kind of a virtue that we have lost over the last couple of years when people kind of scrambled to just build stuff and I think this is something that we need to to reclaim like The Cypher Punk 2022 movement um yeah and I mean basically this Vibes really well with you know like the tornado um issues we think privacy is a human right so basically we think kind of if you look at how much privacy has been taken from us over the last 30 or 40 years and it's it's only getting worse so basically all your all your payment

data basically it's in principle yeah I mean it's like banks are allowing people access to like the synthesized data of you know your spelling and that's it's atrocious um I don't think this should be happening so basically you should be able to kind of you know opt out of that opt out and basically and I mean cash uh which is kind of the untrackable form of money currently um this is being phased out there's there's many places you can't pay with cash anymore crazy yeah so basically kind of having having and somehow it's been happening slowly you know you know the story about the frosh fresh about the Frog who kind of sits in a in

in a pot of water and you know you you apparently it turns out it's [ __ ] it's not true but I think it's a it's it's a good um it's a good simile so basically this this uh frog it sits in a pot of water and basically if if the water boils obviously you know you put it in and it jumps out but if you put it in the water and it's like nice nice and cozy it's room temperature and then you slowly increase the temperature the frogs itself and it sits until it until it's dead um and this is kind of this is this is how I it turns out it's [ __ ] apparently the frogs I mean this is something that green tea is apparently made out to kind of um yeah the green peas made this up for for like um an advert against climate

change in the 90s so we see this of all people of all people yeah so um yeah so uh but apparently it's not true but for us it's true so basically for us basically we the frogs we have the frogs and basic privacy has been stripped from us like one bit at a time so basically like it I mean it used to be funny right basically like people used to say don't say this on the phone otherwise you know people will be listening I mean we now know it's you know everything was being monitored and somehow somehow Ed Snowden is still the bad guy who's you know in Exile in in in Russia uh and uh we're making it like this is no big deal it's like this is a freaking big deal it's like your privacy is yours and yes I mean tornado cash was

used by some bad guys but it's a tool it's a tool we should all be using it um and uh basically in a way maybe um integrating it so deeply into the protocol that everyone uses it uh this will kind of remove the problem of kind of um uh helping the terrorists because basically terrorists will be like and you know 0.1 of a percent or something they won't be there fifty percent whatever so yeah yeah but I mean uh in in the okay I mean I I don't know the actual numbers of tornado cash and how many uh criminals are actually using it but you know this this this idea that crypto has been used by criminals and

terrorists and is primarily used by criminals and terrorists is like until I mean it's it's a false idea and it's a debunked idea that basically tornado did actually see quite so basically it was um yeah basically if you looked at the the numbers so basically it was greatly exactly exaggerated in the media and I think in quindex system means that 80 and basically there was um and there was a chain analysis report that said like 30 or something so I I probably trust the chain analysis report but basically at some point basically if it's like if it's like um 99 bad guys and vitalik I mean we I mean we kind of we have to ask ourselves

are we the baddies and I think no we're not the baddies so I think we just build technology where you know there's a very obvious first adopter uh because they're you know their need for obfuscation is larger but you know there's a very legitimate reason for obfuscating and I have used to Nato cash in the in the past basically it's like um I mean it's I've used it mostly for the use case that I wanted a fresh address and I wanted to fund it with gas money this is kind of this is and I think this is what most people but Houston for totally if you want to send money to a friend without rebelling what what uh how much you have you need to use this kind of tooling otherwise it's easy to track so

at the end or in exchange I mean yeah you know a centralized layout of applications yeah yeah I mean people use I mean I know a lot of people and I have done this too I've used crack in that way kind of let's pay I do too yeah it's it's kind of it's I think they've removed that use case largely because basically now you only have one pay in address you used to be able to generate as many pay in addresses as you want it um and now they no longer have that so basically that's kind of like one uh but uh yeah in principle I think privacy tooling we need this I mean basically this is a this is I mean basically the the skeleton technology here everything is public everything should not be

public it's like everything should be trustless yes should everything be public absolutely not so totally and for me the plowing is not the general use the problem obviously is the people for example imagine that um other release use a mobile phone should we buy mobile phones because of that makes no sense right so at the end the problem is not the technology is how we use it so it's security theater it's kind of like I mean I'm I'm I probably end up on a no-fly list for saying this but it's like the TSA right so basically it's like I could think of so many ways of kind of smuggling like Contraband and you know dangerous things on board you know bypassing the TSA because you know

they are looking for bombs in shoes I mean it's like yeah and I mean if you look at how much time it costs us and how unpleasant it makes the experience of I think yeah I mean but it gives people the illusion of security um and it gives uh control to the state and somehow this is uh yeah illusion of security you know that big lever on the on the next on the uh the the Escape Edge in the plane yeah yeah what what what what what what's with it well what one way to one way to take over a plane I guess is to pull that big lever it's right there in front of everyone um yeah well I mean

um I think we've touched on a lot of important points here um I have one more point I would and it's kind of it's It's admittedly you know seeing what we've talked about you know in the past uh you know hour or so it's on the lighter side but I wanna I wanna start a movement for like more age-appropriate swag so I feel like I've I've been aged out of the swag so basically I I pass all of these boots and you know like it's like neon colored hats that glow in the dark that busy you would gradual Rave like you know just bring back the regular t-shirts the tote bags yeah we want yeah these kinds of this kind of Swag you want you want that swag pack yeah you're you're you're

you're probably looking for like some uh I don't know uh like what do you call it um like like Mommy Swag like like uh like depth node pacifier or uh kid bottle you you will laugh so basically no noses it knows those employees and friends who are actually um who have kids we send them um a uh a uh onesie uh with an hour with a pacifier you know in the beach yeah so it's like and everyone loves it yeah um yeah no I don't want that but basically I don't want a fanny pack either I mean it's kind of like I I know that the queer kids wear them I know

this I see it all the time makes me feel very old but to me a fanny pack is something that you know my grandma said you needed to take on holiday so you weren't robbed you know on the dangerous Italian streets or something it's like uh yeah you know now it's going to be I think 10 yeah 10 years next year that I've been in crypto and I definitely feel like a lot of times I'm the oldest person in the room and uh um right well I mean I don't think of it that way just it's like you know there's those people who are like you know younger younger than I was when I came into crypto who are like just getting into crypto and um yeah there is a there is a generational Gap I

think like you know the people who listen to epicenter like nobody under 30 is listening to episode it's just true if you're under 13 you're listening to this let us know on Twitter yeah like we're a good tweet saying that my dad makes me listen to this well there's your episode yes all right well thank you uh thank you both for welcome for taking part in this and um yeah thanks for listening thanks for being part of this live stream and we'll see you again next week thank you Coolio