DappCon 2019 – Look at My Flashy Colors And Rounded Corners! (#307)

Transcript

[Music] hi welcome to epicenter my name is domestic wooju I hope you're all having a great week I am happy to be back in Paris after spending some time in Tel Aviv I gotta say though that the temperature difference is really really rough it's hard to go from a warm and sunny middle-eastern climate to whatever is happening in Europe right now but I'm I'm happy to be home and I plan to stay put here for the next little while a lot of you are probably on your way Japan or

even already in Japan this comes out as I've mentioned before I've decided to pass on Def Con this year I really need to hunker down and do some work I'll be following closely though probably watching many of the talks on the livestream I will miss the mingling and the parties and meeting with all of you but sometimes you know you just got to resist the FOMO and that's what I'm doing this year sunny and Fedotenko will be there so you should definitely reach out if you want to meet up with them so a guy will be giving a talk with Stefan Jorge of gnosis titled conditional tokens road to few turkey which sounds really interesting I'm looking forward to that one and sunny will be giving a talk titled conservative approach to a radical road

map and I can only imagine what that's about so these are both happening on day four of DEFCON so check the schedule if you'd like to sit in on those we're taking the next two weeks to record some interviews and we'll be releasing some content from Doc on which happened in Berlin in August today you'll hear my panel about UX and design which is titled look at my flashy colors in rounded corners so when the gnosis team asked me to moderate this panel I thought that UX probably wasn't the thing most people would be super excited about so I suggest that this tongue-in-cheek title to try to entice people to come it kind of worked but you know even though it's slightly facetious I think it's somewhat

characterizes maybe with some exaggeration what I think most non product people design think design is about of course it's about so much more than just aesthetics and it goes to the very core of what a product is and why it should even exist the panelists were Chris sugg of air swap alex panda Sande of the theorem foundation eat em all loose reefs of argent and methyl Gomez of Wallet connect I really enjoyed moderating this panel first of all because the panelists were just a really high caliber they're also because I think UX is something that should be at the core of everything we do in this industry I think collectively we should always be asking questions like who is this product for and why are we building this and that

would greatly benefit many of the things that are being built in this ecosystem so I hope you all enjoy this conversation and if you have any comments or thoughts about it please reach out to me on Twitter next week we'll have Sony's tales of governance panel with I mean soleimani sebastien guy ik hora hey Cee Lo and Stephanie herder so look forward to that one as well and sunny freak and I also did a live recording of epicenter on stage at the conference the video of this conversation is already up on our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash epicenter podcast and we might also just release this as a bonus episode sometime next week so one last thing before

today's episode we're hiring a community manager epicenter has grown a lot in the last couple years and it's becoming increasingly difficult to maintain consistency around promoting the podcast so I'm looking for someone who can take ownership of communications this person should be passionate about the crypto space and the eager to learn and educate others I'm looking for someone with social media growth experience good writing skills and importantly someone who's organized so if you recognize yourself in what I just described please go to crypto jobs list com to apply you'll see the posting in the featured listings on the home page and you can apply directly on the website I look forward to your

applications and I'd like to thank my friend Rahman for featuring or listing Rahman is the one-man team behind crypto list he's been running this website by himself for two years and has grown it from a Google Form to what it is today it's really a fantastic resource for the crypto space and if you're looking to hire someone for your team you should definitely consider using crypto jobs lists and supporting ramens work so with that here's my UX panel at DEFCON good afternoon everyone thank you for joining us for this panel and usability where I hope we'll get to the bottom of the age-old question of should we have thin

rounded corners or fat rounded corners or drop shadows flat or no flat and all these really important questions that are core to bringing more users to the space now I'm kidding I hope we'll get to talk about more important things than that so I'm Sebastian Cuchillo I'm the host of epicenter and I'm here today with four experts on the topics of usability user experience and design and we've got a list of topics here to talk about today and I hope we all learn something from from this panel of experts so first I like to get everybody to introduce themselves and just briefly talk about what they're up to I'll go first well my name is Chris sug

I am a UX UI designer from air swap basically what we're trying to do is create a network for peer-to-peer trade we have a suite of products right now that are aiming towards that I think I'm probably the least technical on this panel so I'm going to be the sort of brazen advocate for design throughout but nice to meet you I'm Alex I'm a designer I've been with the agent found Asian for four years now but now I'm focusing on another project called universal logins which is laser focus on how do we get on users on board without them ever having to do like like just one click without seed phrases without passwords and browser extensions hi I'm

Peter I'm not a designer a lot of people think I am but it's just a developer that actually cares about users which is kind of like a designer so I work on Wallet connect and web tree connects which are two developer tools that allow for a better user experience for private key management and in authenticating with your wallet hi I'm Itamar I'm actually colorblind so definitely not a designer I'm the founder of argent and Arjun is really we try to be the wallet for the next billion users substracting every single piece of complexity within the ATM experience great thank you so I try to get a sense of where where we are at

this particular time and get your thoughts on how the space specifically with regards to usability is evolving and what I mean by that is you know let's look back a year or maybe even two years and what are the types of things that we're seeing now emerge in applications and specifically features that it weren't possible a year or two years ago because the technology underneath it wasn't mature enough so like what are the types of things you're seeing in that front are we going in a row just trying to think before speaking you know I think for for us we see a lot of the building blocks were probably

there some of them so important building blocks for origins are for example meta transactions so it allows us to abstract gas pay for the gas but has been there for I think four years the ideas were there so we were able to start almost two years ago with that but then I think new building blocks came in the way so while I'd connect universal login were just ideas I think when we started and certainly now we have a way to interact with Deb's Ellen use case came within the form of compound of maker that were not there before and so suddenly now we're in a place where I would say a few months from now our gen will be able to sell a product to non crypto people

where they can open a savings account and that would not have been possible two years ago cool I'd like to come back to that point of non crypto people so later on the panel just so we don't make a line I'm gonna go there so I think it's interesting that and I wanna compliment that none of those things are possible right now or possible because Oh in the last hard fork we had this specific sake a forever right I think all of those boarding bla building blocks are just things that were always there but we have been just maturing maturing maturing right why right now we have things like compound which is there because there's there's dye which is

there because it's everything is it's those are like building blocks are just being mature enough and having enough finger enough that we can build upon them and like meta transactions for instance so that's that's it the the name is not I shouldn't exist for a year the concept has existed for like two or three years but the name and then people building stuff on top of it has been something that existed basically like for a year yeah and something that has helped a lot is that the this kind of like infrastructure as open-source like that it's not common with web to a lot a much better composability sometimes it kind of like just commoditized what it is to kind of have

like these technologies and people can just like build different interfaces which are just kind of different flavors that are all optimized for different experiences but they're it's not even on the back end we're talking even on the client-side to air the same thing but just different iterations of the same thing and we can just kind of experiment more and learn from each other so it kind of has helped not only developers but users as well yeah and to build off of some of what you said I think for us it's not that there has been something necessarily in the industry at large that has changed everything but I think it's been this sort of iterative dance between our technology and how that is evolving as well as the design that we've

implemented on top of it and how we have continued to iterate upon user experience flows learning so an example here would be like really annoying setup steps for a decks like approvals or unwrapping and wrapping with these are things that we had implemented in previous products and we've been able to really take a look at them gather feedback and create much more usable flows so now instead of having them as sort of individual clicks that a user needs to do they're baked into a greater flow and there's more guidance there and then that's paired with a ton of technical innovation as well that I can rattle off but if you want anything

deeper than rattling we'll have to do like a three-way call with one of our developers later well so I'd like to tie that back into your background because I think of this panel you're the one who's been in the space for at least amount of time and you come from a more traditional web to background and deeply in sort of the marketing of like user applications or unless else from entering the space what are the the sort of differences in building products that you've seen like between web 3 and web 2 specifically from a product perspective how do you see that so shift yeah for sure I think for us again it's really been sort of a journey when I first started we have a product that probably none of you know unless gyro TC traders

but it's called spaces and basically when we were building this product we had this really grand idea of this whole like social trading ecosystem like it had everything from one-on-one chats to group chats to like this Activity Feed where you're seeing trades to the actual trades themselves and I think that a lot of what we were doing there was sort of trying to take web 2 and and put it on top of web 3 and we've really learned from that partly because adoption was a little slow there and so we just released a new product which is actually just one piece of that product that has been pulled out and sort of reimagined in a much more primitive way and I think

that our goal there is to just sort of let it live and see what kind of natural behavior comes from it as opposed to trying to impose any kind of specific experience but to wait and kind of see what experiences come about anything you wanna add on that I mean I think each I'm I also you you you came from more traditional web to background you know building products in the web 3 space what are the differences the fundamental differences and how one should approach progress element it's a good question you didn't prepare us for that one I think I don't know if it's that different I mean building a product people want to use is really hard whether you're on web to web tree and

tea my prince company I mean we were our stock was AWS for infrastructure and I don't think I was pitching to investors in AWS company I mean we were doing brain training games and I think say mean doesn't matter that you use word tree it's about what can you solve what project can you build that user will want and I think because we have that new stack we can do things we couldn't do before but the problem is the same it's about building something people want to use and I think a lot of the friction with thing is there because of where tree can be can be moved away or at least you know you can build layers that will hide a lot of the complexity and for me the main example was we

arrived in the space maybe a bit newer I think I arrived in the space two and a half years ago three years ago and just there was no way for me a billion people will have a seat phrase on a piece of paper and I honestly don't believe anyone really believes a billion people will have a piece of paper with a seat phrase and so we just been probably a year just getting rid of that in a way that would still be noncustodial and decentralize so it's really up to us to build what we do what we think people will want to use so dwell on that under the idea of like a designer with with no like a designer designer coming in right I've been here for a while and when I started there was

almost no designers I was one of the few ones and I'm very happy to see that they've started to come and there was this idea that there is like it's very impossible for a designer to get here because he needs to understand both blockchain and design but I would argue that for a designer this has always been the case right if if your designer you don't understand like what's happening behind the scenes they were just copying what other designers do like every single good web designer like if you go back years would be oh you're doing something different that nobody noticed I was possible before the first guy to use like a video as a background with someone that understood how how much

like how much a video would would wait and how much how sort of impact that would would ever have the first person to use JavaScript as a design element was probably a designer who had understanding maybe if he wasn't a JavaScript developer he had to the heaven understanding that JavaScript is something that I can use for some type of animation so I think that that has always been decays right and just a small add there I think that what's interesting about this space and something that our product manager sort of espouses constantly is that design really pushes development and so in a way it's it's helpful to come from outside to not totally understand the

technical constraints because for developers who have built most of the products that we're using they have those constraints in their head and it's it's blocking them from getting outside of that into new experiences and so I think that it's really important to bring designers into the space that have those new perspectives to push it forward I think the green wait' point because it's in the end it's a conversation between the front end and the back end presentation easily goes like this I could design a crease I want to do this and then someone says oh you can do that that doesn't work that way and then you have to have some some sort of like argument saying no no I think we can do that why can't we do that and then you have to understand why you can't and then you

have to think oh but maybe if we change this maybe we could right and you're not actually making a very technical finger just doing hey I mean we're doing those restrains are you giving me maybe if you push the push the envelope a little bit that way it's not gonna be so hard to develop it and suddenly like the the either experience is so much better I love my peers I would like to work with them because the best designers are the ones who actually understand the concepts that you don't really need to code you just need to know it very high-level kind of like the capabilities and kind of work in this community two-way communication with the developer and I think one of the things that kind of differentiates the work that I do is

that I kind of try to like build software around the experiences and the experience around the software and it's the only reason like wallet kind of Christine is like a usability tool because at the end of the day is the developer tool it's an end-to-end communication protocol but it was built based on the experience of the user first and then kind of try to solve the technical problems and I think it's really good that like designers kind of gross wisconsin's at that point you're just mentioning is it kind of reminded me of the sort of early days of web to you know as as someone who worked on front-end development you know the designers would make these mock-ups I'd be like well I can't make these because like ie6 doesn't have the ability to do

all this stuff that you would like to do so yeah I think that the conversation between the designer and the developer and the blockchain space perhaps has a little bit of an element where because conventions don't exist and because that the technology is so new and we'd love to be able to do all these great things but maybe that's like the building blocks aren't always there to do so so you need to have that sort of close conversation between designers and developers and designers like back then sort of have to be a little technical minded to know what's possible and what's impossible is that an experience that you guys have had yeah basically the like you said it's international technology this is all very new and even a beginner of the internet the concept of like connecting

to a website or sending an email kind of had to be like put the burden on the user but like as we create different tools and components that we could put together we can abstract them because that's the challenge that we're all facing every day is kind of like without removing the these kind of crypto primitives that still allow the consent of the user to approve and sign messages but still kind of allow that smooth experience we don't completely have to centralized technology we just aren't having that these beautiful challenges every day of like how can I do this differently that the user are still aware of like what is doing without having this friction of having extremely technical and I have to complement want to say I'm very happy that that

conversation with designers and the backend and engineers move beyond from I really want this to be centered aligned on like on vertical lines so that is important exactly from like how much entropy does this process have that we'll be able to like let's say hold $10 right okay yeah makes please offender line was hard one of the points that I want to bring up also is it's been it's been brought up here is figuring out what what users need and that's really what building a product is all about is is this product gonna be used because is it solving the the needs of my of my users and I would argue that there's a couple of things there that don't always

hold up and one of the one of those things is that crypto adoption for what I like to call like that the non crypto nerds and you know I consider all of us here to be crypto nerds it's probably not on the rise or is not the growth rate isn't as high as we would like where do you think that is in terms of our ability to really understand what people need and what non crypto nerds would be using this technology for so I like that you using the term non crypto nerds right and anything like I want to coin the like I think a metric for growth in the space should be monthly active non crypto nerds know everything right because they you can argue about what what is encrypt a nerd but I think you you could say that everyone is a of something right maybe maybe or not

get a gig of blockchain but maybe you're a Giga for a garden a gardening or maybe you're a geek for for cooking and that's important right your brain is already occupied with all of those complex things he shouldn't have to worry about all those other things all we want to do is as I said like you want and like a normal person which is I think it's a mythical creature like this normal average user doesn't exist but you want to reach that mythical creature and just have look you can have a saving account right and I can offer you something that you have a saving account which is probably better than your current bank right and why don't you just try this out right I would like to fork this panel to know to find what a nerd is like so basically I think every time we

kind of define like a nerd or a lazy user or a dumb user it's just a lack of motivation like we just kind of have to like direct and kind of poke around and see where the motivations are that we can drive these audiences there are non crypto nerds because the crypto nerds are just motivated by the technology itself but users will be motivated by other motivations like a game or maybe a savings accounts so my experience so far in the last six months has been that I've had big trouble onboarding non crypto people but since compen has been around it's been pretty easy because now the motivation is not about having a private key that you own and control your data but having a better rate than your savings accounts

so the motivation was there for them to do the steps even if the usability wasn't there I think your perspective bring the two of you just summarize it well I think first it's let's stop waiting for mass adoption I think we all wait for mass adoption and we must be the most patient people in the world because it will will never happen there will never be a billion people using crypto the way we use it today where there is a sit for a signing transaction typing long public address it will not happen I mean it's a fact I mean I can bet everything I want inaugurate will not happen so it's about using the technology to start up building projects they want and we can be a bit opportunistic so I think the

safe account we believe in it is a bit of opportunistic each one last forever you cannot match a billion people in compound to the margin trader of today but today it's already amazing value of crypto yar disintermediating a lot of people and certainly you mark you match this margin trader are ready to pay fifteen sixteen percent interest rate to borrow to borodai and certainly you can put retail normal non crypto nerd users who just wants a non risky relatively non risky savings account and suddenly they can get great interest rate is a great proposition it might last a year two years but you are suddenly bringing people in this parallel universe but there will be new opportunities in six

months in one year there will be another compound and your opportunities that can only be possible in this space so we were arguing about this a little bit earlier but I it's not that I disagree I think definitely we need to build products that these users actually won but I think that there is also an optimistic kind of option where we're sort of preparing the ground now and so I think of it it this is a very weird metaphor and just track with me for a second but I was talking to a friend who comes from the Christian tradition and there's this this phrase it's called the already but not yet and so within Christianity apparently it refers to the Son of God already having been crucified

but has not yet made the world perfect and so the life of this Christian person is one of you know going through a life where they've been sacrificed for but it still sucks so I kind of think of I kind of think of the etherium ecosystem in the same way that we're in this weird kind of in-between of like already but not yet we already have this technology we already have apps that are being built upon it but we don't yet have a number of things in some ways we're waiting for the text to catch up in some ways we're waiting for the users to catch up but I think there is an interesting opportunity to like lean into that tension and be able to both design for the users that you do have I

mean there are developers out there our decks for example you know we have loyal users that we are optimizing for but there's also this opportunity to kind of experiment like I was saying earlier in like our primitive approach where you know we can try some things and we can start to play a little bit with these experiences and start to add small things that would apply to those yet to come users or yet to come experiences so I you know for a little optimism where we are you're saying we're waiting for the crypto rapture yeah you're saying is like the photo she died for our sins and we need to let blockchain yeah there is an underlying message here of that definitely yeah I

mean it's kind of like building an airport when there's no attractions but waiting for the attractions to come you know you don't build an airport so people can visit the airport you build an airport because there are things to see in places to go and businesses do it go to and I feel like you know we've built I hope that to building a huge airports sorry that to Dubai people I don't know I feel like when I look at the space it looks like we're building huge airports but there's still not a whole lot of attractions and like you know water parks and things like that the people can actually come and visit in this in this city proverbial city where the airport is but yeah I'm confident that we'll get there right like that those things will get built and things that people actually use and

have value and like the use cases that all of us have been you know routing for all these years whether it's cross-border payments or permissionless finance or all the stuff on sort of like the traceability side like I'm constantly those things will so I so to go on your Airport metaphor I think it's good because well what we are doing is sort of like compound existed because like meta mask exists right so metamath sort of opens this in enable like a crypto community to to use something as compound compound is quite easy to use if you already have madam asked and then compounds create a new use case and then you can use that news case to attract

new users that are not going to madam ads that are going to an easier way and it's sort of like you build a small airport and then there's a more attraction because there's an port and then because that attraction more people come and then you expand the airport so I think that that is like usability and the use cases are like are either like Adele's let's talk about use cases a little bit so we talked about the building blocks that have permitted us to build really cool things today like things like argent and arrow swab and what are the building blocks do you think that will really allow for you know the quote unquote unbanked use case to really come to fruition and for those like monthly active users to to come to

that kind of use case for people like in Venezuela to really start using crypto in at a scale that we haven't seen before or for you know like the the GJ zone guy in France who like doesn't want to use the banking system anymore and prefers to put his money and encrypt though and like invest in this sort of thing where word you see the those those building blocks and those use cases colliding so making making that emerge so crypto is really good at doing parallel economies so basically the way it works is that you kind of just have like these assets running on a trustless chain but it doesn't require any of the existing infrastructure that we have with like courts and banks and

traditional regulators so basically you will see a much bigger adoption right now in places where parallel companies are more common because people feel more comfortable in not relying on government's and kind of like just self-regulate themselves but for the villager in france they are too tied to the current systems so the own boarding for them will be much bigger friction because they can't just acquire assets within the parallel economy well in a in for example in south america people would be more willing to kind of like create like a shop and paying themselves in like in crypto because they would be doing that anyway because they don't

trust the government as much they wouldn't put their money in the bank anyway while the people in Europe have a actual a very stable system where they can actually trust their governments and institutions so Levi's gonna need a pension fund they're gonna need new pension funds oh yeah it's more a matter of how can they earn without the how can they earn within the parallel economy that we need to kind of recreate everything on this side for them to actually because this transition is already kind of gateway by the institutions I mean if I think really for for our generals clearly vision long term is took together to be in these markets if I look at what were we we have today and what we miss today I mean we we always do have things like

gas abstraction so you don't need ease so we simplify a lot of things so you can make free payment basically that's there I think what we are missing some stuff we can solve so for example I don't think Arjun is ready yet in terms of running on low power device low powered Android device so it's not rocket science it will happen then there's no I would say big technological challenge but we are not there yet think tech scalability and layer to upend payment I'm not too worried we could deploy it the building blocks are there for us to deploy layer two at scale I think we would have an issue on onboarding on on-ramp so how do you bootstrap an economy so below your pond

is interesting maybe you don't need people to pool poor actual dollar or their money in and maybe you create the economy from nothing or almost but I think that would be probably the biggest challenge for to us for us to break out of this community it's really on RAM that is probably the thing we're not yet fully happy about yeah I agree with both of those and actually something that Pedro said yesterday at a panel that I saw I think marketing is like a huge part of this like there's just isn't visibility into these things I mean the these DAPs need to be able to deal with the people coming so they need to be easy-to-use we need on ramps but also like it just

needs to be talked about for people to know it's even there yeah and I think this that's true I mean I'd like to bring it back to the to the product aspect that as we wrap this up and open up for questions in a moment as product developers how do you deal with the with the challenge of getting data from your users and like usage data for example like doing user testing and surveys and this sort of thing in an ecosystem where I think a lot of users are probably very concerned about their data and staying anonymous and yeah yeah so we talked about this a little bit earlier and for us and specifically for the products that we were building which again was an

OTC trading app and if you don't know what that is basically its peer-to-peer anonymous trading so this is for traders who want to trade off exchange their trading large sums of money or large sums of assets and they don't want the market to shift by trading on exchange so it's an alternate form of trading and obviously the the key piece of that is anonymity so trying to track down users for any kind of research was really you know a challenge a fun challenge and like coming from traditional UX there there are pretty formal systems in place as far as user research you make a user survey you send it out to a ton of people a few of those people respond you

bring them in for interviews etc etc so we tried some of these kinds of methods it was laughable I mean the responses we got and lack of responses we got I think three people of like 300 people responded to our survey and and most of them most of them had profanities in it we did an ad on Craigslist to try and get crypto folks they actually came into the office one of them was literally drunk one of them was like a dark web criminal and one of them was just useless like absolutely knew nothing about it and you know so obviously we had something was wrong in our nets there and so what we ended up

doing and you know this is again like an iterative process and learning the industry and sort of redefining all of these methods we just like when on telegram and one by one asked traders if they would talk to us like I personally was on telegram just like trolling traders and sending them designs and some of them like would actually mock them up I'd like to do little designs back I mean it was amazing and they were incredibly generous but you know it's really just like guerrilla user research starting over and away I may be your product is made for useless drunk sorry maybe that's your user base that's your so I if he's a quick question because

like we should we should encourage I think that if you're doing a crypto app and you have like Google Analytics you probably are doing something wrong right even if you're not doing like an animal's over the trade counter and I think it comes down to that it comes out to like try to do my ups try to connect them but it also comes down to I think two things right and I think first of all you need to build a product that you want to use yourself right I think you are the first user and if you're not excited about building the project you're not using it every day you're probably in viewing the wrong product because like you you must be excited about using your own products and second and I think that's that's especially if you're talking back to this this idea of like anyone should be

able to use it like when I used to work in a like one of the finger I miss most about working in like in a normal company not just working remove today with teams that when I was working on a company would often just show designs to random people like that a marathon the cars or or they were like on a desk job and I just showed you designs nothing hey if you see this do you think you're gonna click here or here or there right and I think that's useful because sometimes just show your products has no idea where it is it's also useful so yeah don't think it's been too different from typical project development so Arjun is a wait list I'm sure everybody loves our wait list but

that means that for every new big release so of course we whateleys we Whiteley's a bunch of people but also we make sure we have ten 20 people that literally often we find enough like physically in London we are across Europe at our designer come to London and then we would really do their own bodying next to people and then every time someone in a conference use it we check and we so we do a lot of live testing and that's been important so every new release we start fresh with a new group of people I mean as you say legs and I mean I know it takes you don't need to know the name the ENS the other you don't need to know anything to know that 50% of your users don't tap on the button so you it's okay to run some

analytics we haven't had an issue there it's much more annoying for us for customer support I have no way to know that you specifically we're stuck there on that screen so we built some tools through analyze on chain data because of your C's public it's there it's on chain before you know and user research it's really the same then it's also about not okay one thing has been different is that team we are built our early adopters are not really our early adopters so we're building a product with people here the crypto nerds as you say it or just I would say crypto savvy people I think is nicer but if I want to get the next billion users you don't represent at all this is next billion users so we always test we want to make sure it works well with crypto savvy

people but at the same time we would have completely random people who have no idea about crypto and bit by bit we're not yet there but bit by bit making them capable of using that and you know in six months I think I'll be a stage worse it's my mom that will be testing it and that will be a really the validation point that's a good validation point for yeah didn't your my mom here yeah basically I think when we come to analytics we always think about the web to analytics like they they've lived in a closed source world so they've kind of like delved into the details and really had no limit and now with open source were kind of like really transparent we will also have like like you said blockchain is public so we can study like the data that's on change very easily and even if

we have some analytics on the client side app we don't really need to kind of create identities around that we just need to kind of study like the patterns around it and we can even be playful about it we can have like maybe a statistics page that shows the graphs going up and we see that for example the image swap for example that's analytics of a decentralized platform and even compound has like a graph of going out with all the the finances things so there's a lot of data there that doesn't need to be anonymous and it will still be gdpr compliant I think what we need to be more careful I mean designing and building a projects with analytics I think it it can be done it's once we start thinking once company will be at scale and marketers will

start to kick in with CRM I mean if I think we had 60 million users in my previous company we knew everything and you would get a new email if you almost made the purchase but then you didn't complete it and you just start thinking what that means in script oh I mean what you do or some compound so you started you did you approve but you didn't complete it starts to be dead that's where I think we need to be very careful in not making the same mistake of the past because people will be tempted to start tracking everything because there's so much you could do and that thing that's where at some point you need to yeah you need to draw the line yeah I think so too I mean as someone who's very concerned about his own privacy on just you know

web to apps sort of thing I mean I couldn't imagine a wallet or something like tracking every click and finding out that I went through like the the checkout right and stop at some point and like notifying me like well okay it's a bit too much okay I mean we've got five minutes left so I'd like to open up for questions and if there any questions in the audience soup just like why we wait for questions another compliment also is like I think I used the Googler and it is a lot right and I would say that they are like at the other end of the spectrum in which like the gay there's just too much data right I would say like if you like probably the amount of data you really need is so

much less than that you probably want some sort of phone of data to know like where you're losing users you probably want something like to understand like how many users are or like invite you other users some very basic things like that and like good analytics who tell you like how many seconds for every page and where they click worthy mouse-over and in the end those are like very cool things and graphs to see but I would argue that they are probably they even distract you right I would I would say that if I think having less data can be good in a sense for you to focus on only the the bits are important was having like all the code open source provides like a

high level of accountability so you're being way more thoughtful about the data you're actually consuming even if users don't look at open source let's be honest most of us don't we have like some savvy users who look into it and we kind of take their word for it and there will always be this kind of like monitoring of what's actually going on behind so any questions from the audience I think we have one question we don't know right maybe a thumbnail round it maybe a like button we know how it looks like so a really hard question is how is in six to eight years where three is going to look like

how does privacy accountability look like flashy colors around corners so I think it's a fantastic question because like this exciting part is we don't know right like and I think a lot of what things look like depend on like the platform they are on the sort of things they do I think just take a look at the move from like a mouse cursor to touchable things in the beginning like every a lot of companies thought that like the touching things is just a mouse cursor right you're just have mouse cursor here and you have buttons for everything and everything you can do have also course where you're just clicking things around even like the

cursor itself looks like a finger right but in the end if you look at where apps are going like Oh today most app interactions are actually just interactions that you do with your fingers like left wipe swipe here swipe there like bring it down bring it up like turn down so you're you're pushing thing around it just means that the how things look into an app today and the reason that you have a lot less like buttons and shadows and things that are glossy is also because you're moving things around so if you if we apply that to crypto so what happens is that naturally the first apps encrypted just like web Tree apps just look like web chew apps right they are just like the

best looking apps looks just like Facebook it looks like Twitter and we'll end up figuring out what should they actually look like and I think that's that society partly are sort of copying the old model and then from that figuring out what can look better when you think about it like the biggest difference between web 2 and we're three is that if you have a web 2 app there's there's still cryptography there it's just the non-skin authentication at the beginning and every consequent action has not been authenticated but with web 3 apps were authenticating every single action every single action has the consent of the user and that's basically what web tree means that's basically done and we're kind of just probing how much consent do we need we

need a consent for like token allowance every time maybe we don't for example with origin they kinda abstracted that with just allowing the token allowance and the borrowing on the same point of depositing so maybe that's good enough for a user to feel comfortable of interacting with these web 3 apps maybe for other apps you require a bigger level of consent maybe some apps you need less consent so we're just measuring how much consent is comfortable for the use cases there's another question I am a designer not specifically on a mobile app or web app that a designer in general a user centered thinker a designer is not only developing upon user experience only he

is supposed to have a vision of what could be a product in five years or in 10 years and actually I'm not talking specifically on crypto but I'm talking about in technology in general today we see just a replication of little plus product and little plus design of the same interface so what will be the characteristics that actually a wallet of crypto is different from a wallet because this is different currency and different interaction with the currency and this is not happening and we will have not this interaction specific to that which is not related to the technology but the understanding of this

product doesn't mean that the user have to understand it but the vision of this product the potential of this product has to be transcripted through the interface through the user experience where is it it's not there and that's why actually your product is hard to be attractive and hard to be understood because it's still sticking to the technology not on the behaviors actually you expect from the user to make a concrete example of what could be an interface let's stay on the dating application and what tinder change just

by making one interaction which define the way of dating in a complete different way it was not a gimmick of swiping it was just one element which was like see Swiper right and left through a catalogue of photos but then it was people right but that's exactly what actually a wallet a crypto wallet could be but we'd still have a replication of the same - that was another question but this is kind of revolution in what's like where is the design today and this question is like look at my flashy colors and rounded

corners this is sarcasm and we are still doing that even though you explained that your designers or your like understanding the user who are still not connecting the advance of the revolution that actually you want to show to your user but it's still frozen or missing the point yeah so basically I think that we're kind of like there's like this communication within design because design is communicating like the way we position there's a year icky where we focus attention right so we're kind of like trying to feel like what is the wallets for a user like we try to kind of communicate that through the design

that there's this kind of like access control to the application that's kind of built in into the infrastructure and we haven't found out what is the most commonly accepted for users because we have very little users right there's very little people using crypto and as we get more adoption we're gonna understand more how people feel about a lot of people have told me that wallets are just too FA why why did they say that because that was the only like concept they've had prior on web 2 of something was required for them to give consent for an app to proceed forward so basically we're just kind of feeling where where's the analogy from existing infrastructure where wallet fits in and

we kind of have to kind of build the experience because even like you said with tinder like like the swiping has kind of evolved like the swiping didn't exist it's something that we kind of found through like different experiences even with web 2 we kind of see web nowadays looking all the same right so we kind of evolved and had like more adoption on some gestures or some position of buttons and we're kind of just like where do the most people feel okay or the cancel button should be and now we're gonna find where do most people feel that the wallet should approve or not approve should the wallet approve everything or not should the wallet be in a separate app or just inside the app which is still finding

that out because the one who actually picks up is going to kind of determine the direction of the industry I think we can take one final question I'm Adrian and I would like to ask a question about wallets and wallets are basically something for our finance like the cryptid itself for our intellectual property which we see with NF TS as well as for our identity with the selfs overriding identity so my question is do you think we have like one big wallet as a platform which has this kind of multi-purpose environment or do we see like or will we see a very specialized wallets on a smart contract platform or yeah how does is their interaction between them yeah it's a great question

so here's the thing right when I start I've been building a browser with a wallet for like years mid year like we started when we started with mist we had this idea where you have a browser and do you have a special app which is the wallet right because the wallet is special and I think that made sense back then but I think that was a mistake in a sense what I would say is a wallet is just another app and what you actually have which is special which it goes across every app should be your identity right I think your identity and maybe like maybe your collectibles or part of your identity maybe how much

money you have our part our identity but that is not a wallet that is your identity that goes across all apps and you can have an app as a wallet right maybe you have a specialized wallet for for trading quickly or maybe you have a to a wallet for savings but I think what's the common core is that I needed identity so I'll connect that to the previous question so first whoever came out with the word wallet should burn in hell I mean I know normally we said that for centralized exchange but it was I don't have a better name we talk about that every week and because it's not the wallet it's also not a bank because bank routing is custodial so I'm starting to

think is it a noncustodial Bank because we are there to secure your assets to store them to move them that's a lot of what you do with your bank and I think it's a bank that also store other very important stuff so your crypto kitties it's not money but it's something very important a new identity I think identity is equally as important it's to be secured because identity is all the data it's your it's your purchase history on Amazon it's everything should be in that safe that you control and you decide who has access to what so I don't think people will have their fun spread across ten different apps so I think yes you need one product I don't know if I would call it an app because it can be a smart

contract get your access from different point that that has you know that helps you control that entire digital life so it's as much looking in on web to web sites were three website approving payment approving any change basically on the blockchain so it's an authorizer plus a bank plus so yet I believe in that vision I agree that the identity spread across everything and should be able to move if needed and to be recovered I believe our time is up ladies gentlemen thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a

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