The DAO Security Fund: Turning a Historic Hack into Ethereum's Future

Transcript

Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization in the blockchain revolution. I'm Fedria Ants and I'm speaking with Griff Green today. My hot take is this is not made for end users. If you are a user, you have probably shouldn't be on Ethereum. >> Ethereum is super secure, but it's not safe. You can get fished. You can have your assets in a smart contract that gets hacked. You can send money to the right address on the wrong chain. The Dow hack is probably the only hack ever where everyone made money. Dow token holders got all of their Ether back and Ether Classic. We just need to get more serious about making a safe environment for normal people. And then like if if

that was a priority, we would be there. But we've always had this cipher punk priority, but we shouldn't force everyone down that route. We should actually give the people what they want, which is safety. So far, we've actually been able to allocate over a,000 ether to 135 different security projects. Hi guys, welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Fedria an I'm speaking with Griff Green today, who has been on the show many times before. Um, today I'm speaking with him as the co-initiator of the DAO security fund.

Before we speak with the Griff, um, let me tell you about our sponsors this week. >> This episode's brought to you by Lido. As Ethereum staking continues to evolve, more teams building staking products are running into a familiar challenge. On one hand, poolled liquid staking gives you liquidity and access to DeFi, but can limit customization. And on the other, bespoke staking setups offer more control over things like pricing, performance, and operator selection, but they often come with added complexity and less flexibility. LITOV3 is changing that with SD vaults. SD Vaults is modular staking infrastructure. It lets builders and institutions deploy custom staking vaults tailored to their specific needs. At the same time, they're staying connected to SDH as a shared liquidity layer powering

Ethereum's broader DeFi ecosystem. If you're just looking for a place to generate yield on your idle assets, Lido Earn makes it super simple. It offers curated DeFi strategies built around SDE. You deposit once, you choose a vault and manage everything from a single interface. To learn more and start building with SD Vaults, go to lido.fi/stvaults and get in touch with lighter contributors today. >> Greff, it's been a while. How how have you been? >> Great. Uh, I've been having a lot of fun with the Dow Security Fund.

>> Super nice. Yeah. So, kind of when the announcement came um a while back, I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, now I have to get my >> No, no, no. Now I have to convert kind of uh the remaining DAO tokens that I still hold because kind of like I I mean, they're backed still, right? You can always redeem them." So, kind of like I I never did. It's kind of like the original NFT kind of the proof you were there. >> Um >> and I was like, "Oh, no." now kind of it's uh um kind of my my my funds will be used um in this for this great cause but kind of they're my funds what do I do and then kind of I I read about it more and I was

like okay this is it's actually fine it's not my funds being used and so on so I assume almost everyone who listens to this podcast at this point knows about the DAO uh but maybe let's talk about um kind of your specific role in the DAO um scenario and then we can talk about kind of why so much ETH was left over and kind of um what you uh what you and a couple of others uh went on to do with it then. >> Sure. You want me to just rants about the DAO and my role? I can go on. Make sure to interrupt me because I'm a hell of a ranter. Like watch out feel free.

But yeah, so I I my first gig in crypto was the Dow and Socket. So, Sloet uh so if we rewind to 2015, Ethereum just launched and a few members of the Ethereum Foundation broke off to start Sloet. Slocket was a, you know, a sharing economy startup and their goal Socket stood for smart lock, right? And so the idea was, hey, we could put like a lock on a locker or and or turn on any kind of device, give that device its own Ethereum address, and you could send money to that device, it would turn on or it would open up the lock and then you could take whatever is in that locker and you're good to go, right? And

so I jumped on to Slocket because of the sharing economy dream before the DAO existed. I was technically their first uh first employee. Um hard to say employee because I was like I will work for free. I just want to be involved, you know. Um I came in as a community organizer. I uh I I was getting a degree in digital currencies. I have the first master's degree in digital currencies. The first degree ever in digital currencies that I collected a week after the Dow was hacked. So, I didn't really need it, but I did get it. Uh, and uh, and and before that, I was a chemical engineer, but my the reason I could be a community organizer was because I actually did a lot of, um, grassroots

activism for an NBA sports teams called the Seattle SuperSonics uh, in Seattle. And so I kind of led the community there. So, I was like, I could bring those skills. They said they needed a community organizer. I was like, I could do that, you know, uh and and so they let me in and so I built up the slack and we got it huge. I was doing it felt like event with the Dow as the DAO came into the purpose uh it felt like I was doing community organizing for Ethereum itself. Uh because the community was so like the DAO community was so huge that uh it kind of took over Ethereum for a few months there. Uh the reason that Socket needed a DAO was because imagine

you have a locker you could open up with a without talking to anyone. You know, people are going to put weed in that locker, right? Like what are we going to do? How are we going to build a global borderless like uh universal sharing economy is what we were calling it. Um if we have to deal with some jurisdiction, SLIT was a German company, but we wanted to be in the Ethereum jurisdiction. So we were like let's start a DAO and the DAO will be in the Ethereum jurisdiction. It doesn't have a legal entity. It doesn't do anything. You know this is like the first really big Dow. There was Maker Dow and there were some other Dows but this was like a you know the re the first real big one that was like we're just going to go for

it. And uh yeah and it it took off. It got everyone was excited about it. We had Vitalic and Alex Vanderande and like every big name in Ethereum Gavin Wood that all of them were there as curators and uh and we also had this weird mechanism where the money doesn't just go to us when you know most token sales after this it was like the money went into someone's multisig and they issued you a token and there was no direct link between it here if you put in one ether you got a 100 DAO tokens and the way the DAO was set up is that you could later split the DAO and put take out with a burn 100 tokens and get your ether back and that plus all the big names plus

just like the DAO being the first big DAO. Uh it got out of control. We ended up raising 14% of all Ether in existence at that time. Uh 14% of the market cap of Ether was in here at the time. was $150 million which be which was uh the largest crowd sale that had ever happened to that point uh anywhere crypto or not and so it was huge and we were very famously hacked three weeks after after that uh and that's a whole story in itself but uh I uh you know being the community organizer being the person who was like most connected to all the people who are affected by that I kind of took it upon myself to lead

the recovery effort from the hack uh from almost every angle. The only angle I didn't really lead was the hard fork like work uh to actually implement the hard fork and and all that which was of course really critical and I supported as much as I could. But there was all the other stuff like uh the hacker only stole $50 million. So me and the Robin Hood group which later became the white hat group stole the other hundred million dollars. So actually we had in our contracts at one point 10% of all Ether in existence that we hacked. That's kind of cool. Uh and then uh and then also when the hard fork did happen uh that created uh Ether Classic and so on the Ether Classic chain we were able

to return 10% of all Ether Classic that we held to DAO token holders. We're also able to uh and and which is really interesting because the Dow hack is probably the only hack ever where everyone made money. Dow token holders got all of their Ether back and Ether Classic. The Dow hacker has all his Ether Classic, so he made money. And actually, everyone in Ethereum got aird dropped Ether Classic. So, even if you weren't involved, if you're just hanging out in Ethereum and had some Ether, you made money. It's just like a really crazy thing that a hack could generate so much wealth. But uh like even the Ethereum Foundation, I believe they didn't have to for over a year they didn't have to sell any Ether because

they could just sell their Ether Classic. Uh so all of that aside, when the hard fork happened, that solved the problem for about 97% of the ETH that was there. as in um anyone could during the hard after the hard fork turn in a 100 DAO tokens for one ether with this hard fork contract but there were edge cases 3% of the ether wasn't covered by the DAO token holders it came from a variety of other places and so I led a team to clean up the the mess take care of all the detail suite wrote lots of token contracts and lots of with uh withdraw contracts and you know we tried to keep it as simple

was possible, but it was definitely more complex than the hard fork. And for the 10 last 10 years, I've been helping people, especially with the edge cases, but even with now lately, it's also been people who just have Dow tokens and they're like scared to touch Ether Scan because there's no UIs or anything. So, I just like hold their hand and help them claim. And I've been doing that for a decade. And in uh and then so now fast forward to today uh and the Dow Security Fund. Can I just go into the origins of that?

>> Yes, absolutely. Maybe maybe tell us um how much of um the ether that um the DAO held was eventually returned and what percentage we're talking about that wasn't returned for whatever reason. >> Yeah. So about 99% of the ether in total was returned. Let me think. Wait, no, no. 98.6% I think. 98.7%. I don't know. It changes, but somewhere in that in that range, right? Close enough. >> About percent a good percent is left over.

>> Yeah. Like a little over 1% is left over now. And it and in October of 2025 when we started pushing this direction with more fervor, uh it was about 50% was in the DAO token withdraw contract, the hard fork contract, which held about 80,000 ether. And that's like a 99.3% recovery. uh the other.7% you and I for instance we're in that uh we're holding for numismatic value I like I like my DO tokens you know they're always going to be worth one ether I think that's cool 100 of them at least will always be worth one ether so and that is not touched by us at all like there's that one is super secure

it's built into the protocol but then there was this other 75,000 ether that was in a variety of contracts uh that we launched in 2016 without before there were smart contract audits. Uh they were managed by uh three of six multisig and we're talking this multiig in 2016 they didn't have safe. Okay, in fact Nosis didn't even h make multisigs at that point. Okay, this is like really >> like none of you may remember but there was a time that Nosis did not produce multiigs.

>> Yes, exactly. And the multi were really bad. >> Parity. Yeah. Par mighty sick and similar >> like >> Yeah. I mean a year after the Dow hack, uh Jordy and I, you know, Jordy, of course, your EEZ uh CTO guy, right? Uh Jordy and I uh hacked rescued $210 million from the parody multisig hack, right? So the the multisigs that we were using in 2016 really risky as well as all the contracts that we had deployed they were a little risky and uh we well you know effectively balancer got hacked and you know when we deployed all this stuff it was $6 million that went into

these edge case funds right that 75,000 ETH 80% of the funds that were in the edge case uh situation were claimed and that 20% that was $75,000 ETH at the time that would have been a little over a million. Now in October 2025 it was $300 million and we did not have $300 million worth of security. You know we had a volunteer multisig whose keys have been exposed for a decade. Most of the people I couldn't even get a hold of for a month.

you know, uh that were on this original multisig and they were all volunteers and they haven't been active. I didn't even know if they were going to all have their keys. Luckily, they did. And uh and not to mention like what if North who knows if North Korea has some of our keys? And then the AI risk balancer got hacked in October 2025 and that kind of you know smacked us in the face. It was very scary. We were already talking about like doing something with these funds potentially because uh uh PCC PC from uh from Seal 911 Pascal he he actually reached out to me and was like hey I saw that you know you have these funds that were supposed to be donated

to Ethereum security uh because that's what we said with the edge case funds we said hey if you don't claim this we're going to donate it you know come claim we just never did uh and and so he's like hey maybe seal 911 it to support us or something. And so that was the initial initiation, but it wasn't really going anywhere. It was kind of an idea, but then when when uh Balancer got hacked, we were all scared because really it didn't make sense uh to our our current setup and and we definitely needed to change the multiig, but like where do we get the money? How do we do this? And so the idea came up that we could stake it on uh the beacon chain and actually earn a revenue off the

funds while leaving claims open. So yes, when we started this initiative, uh no one who has claims has to worry about it. They can sit there and they will still be able to claim. they just um it's just now instead of leaving their funds in a in some risky contracts, we still left some money in those contracts so claims could keep going without any fear. But we took the bulk of it and we staked it and now it's earning it's earning us about five ether a day, a little over five ether a day. And now we can use that number one for the securing the funds and securing the setup with a more professional setup and number two actually fund all of Ethereum security.

So we have five ether a day that that is dedicated to ecosystemwide Ethereum initiatives and Ethereum security initiatives. >> This episode's brought to you by Near AI Cloud. OpenClaw is one of the biggest stories in AI right now. Rapidly it gained over 200,000 GitHub stars with adoption from Silicon Valley to Beijing. Why? Because OpenClaw makes it easy to create an AI agent that actually does stuff like manage your emails, browse the web, schedule appointments, and remember contacts across weeks of interaction. But where do you securely store and run an always on agent that needs persistent access to your most sensitive data? Local deployment means you have to manage expensive hardware at home and traditional cloud means surrendering full access to your data to some cloud provider. Near AI cloud

solves this problem by running openclaw inside trusted execution environments. These are hardware level secure enclaves where your agent operates in encrypted memory that even near AI can't inspect. It's not a promise that they won't look. It's cryptographic guarantees that they can't. With OpenClaw on neari cloud, you get cloud convenience without data exposure. There's no hardware to manage and no trust assumptions required. You can learn more at near.ai. AI. >> Cool. So these funds were already kind of committed to security because kind of like in my kind of like I had just assumed that a large part of it was symbolism. So kind of money left over from Ethereum's defining security

feature now being used uh from from Ethereum's defining security failure now being used to fund Ethereum security. I mean that's that's a beautiful picture right there. But kind of you you're you're saying that kind of this was the plan all along. You just never got around to it. >> The symbolism was present in 2016. Basically, we we wrote a blog post that said, "Hey, these edge case we when we when I got the curators to join this three of six multisig, it was on the premise that they wouldn't have to do anything after 6 months. It was a six-month commitment. And after that, if no one claims the funds, we're going to

donate it to a nonprofit for Ethereum security. That was well, specifically smart contract security is what it says in the blog post. And at the time, that was the only security we could think of. Right now, of course, Ethereum security is a much broader concept. And smart contracts are the things that are most secure. Um, but yeah, at the time, that was the idea. It was a short-term thing. And then we kept extending it and extending it, and then we just kind of like, uh, there was no one to donate it to. basically. So, we just never did >> and now it it feels right to just leave the claims open and go the endowment approach.

>> Yeah, I I I totally hear that. Um so, the five ether a day that's um currently around 10k um US dollars. Um obviously kind of this is a lot of money to transfer to just one organ organization. So, kind of tell tell us how uh the DAO security fund is set up. H how um how are you dispersing uh the funds to um to projects and how do you determine which ones are worthy? >> Yeah, so the Dow security fund we we put ourselves in the same breath as like Ethereum institutional or ETH labs or any of these new Ethereum startups that are coming up that are trying to focus on the Ethereum network and improving it

to for the needs of their users. for us is it's all a focus on security and the way we want to distribute funds because right now the Ethereum Foundation is doing a great job. Ethereum is the most secure blockchain in the world by far. Uh I do think that there are opportunities to improve of course. Uh but we want to take a a complimentary approach to the Ethereum Foundation. Ethereum Foundation is very top down. They decide what is secure and what they need to focus on. like the S in crops stands for security, right? So, it's still a focus of the Ethereum Foundation and we want to complement that by taking in more of a ecosystem bottomup approach. So, while the Ethereum Foundation decides like we want to focus

on improving the security here, there and here, we actually really talk to the ecosystem more and uh we do everything in a DAO way. Actually, I know Dows are not very popular these days. I'm still a believer. Consider me guilty. >> Nice shot. For everyone who's who's who's only listening to this, Griffith Griff is wearing a t-shirt that says the DAO is back. >> Yeah, exactly. It's just like on the website if you go to the Dow.fund, you can basically see what the shirt is I'm wearing. But, uh, it's it's, um, whether we like it or not, uh, the Ethereum Foundation has their goals and what they want to focus on, and I think they do listen to the ecosystem, but not nearly as well as we're going to. We want to

validate with a market all the funds that we're doing. So like for instance, the first thing that we did was we ran a quadratic funding round. Quadratic funding is a really cool way where uh we put up 500 ETH as a matching pool. That was a little over a million dollars at the time. And then donations came in uh from the entire ecosystem. of the 134 projects, the ones that got the most donations from the most people got a larger share of the matching pool. So instead of us just saying, hey, these are the projects we're going to reward, we actually allow the community to decide. Uh, and we I'm not the biggest fan of just like, oh, wisdom of the

crowds, we're good, especially in the security space. And so we have another group that is part of our DAO, you could say. Uh it's not really a formal DAO so much, but we do have this NFT uh called the ETH security badge and it's been it was given to >> I have one. >> Yes, you do. Of course. Uh because I mean obviously you're a rockstar in the security space and there's 199 other of you rock stars that have an amplified voice in how we distribute our funds. So in the last round if uh we air dropped all the security badge holders somewhere around $350 uh $250 of it came from CERTIC a hundred

of it came from the DAO and uh so every every badge holder got $350 to donate for free and they could also add their own money so that and and every donation from an E security badge holder was multiplied by four. So, uh, as far as influencing how our matching pool was distributed. So, in the end, the the badge holders distributed a little over half of the matching pool and the rest of the matching pool was distributed by the community. And we want to keep that kind of vibe going where it's like we have an expert group, the security badge holders, who kind of have like a lot of influence over how funds are distributed, but then there's some

avenue for people who really care to put their own money in the pot and also influence how we distribute our funds. >> How do you prevent the fund from becoming governed by a smallish of insiders? Right. I assume some of the curators didn't really um take part in in the distribution because kind of like they are all busy people and so on. So kind of how do you make sure it doesn't get too concentrated. >> Yeah. So we have we have a setup here. Uh the DAO security so the DAO security fund has curators at the top. So the curators are Vitalik, Taylor Monahan, Jordi Balina, PC uh from Seal 911, Alex Vande, me and uh Lansky from Dap mode.

And so we kind of decide the budget for every round, the scope of every round and like how the funds will be distributed, right? Like what mechanism we use, but that's all the curators decide other than the curators are also E security badge holders. And so now we have 200 E security badge holders. And that allows for a large enough number I think that a lot of the uh what would you call that? Um the weird like conflicts of interests to kind of balance out. But also um one thing that we did with the badge holders is that we review all of the badge holders work. Uh specifically I do. So, we gave everyone

an anonymous badge so that the public doesn't know who is doing what. But I actually went through and reviewed all of the badge holders. I know who has the private badges, only me. Uh, so I'm the person holding them accountable. And I DM'd all the people who donated just to their own project or just to one project. And I was like, "This is a warning." You know, like that is not an expert opinion. that looks like you're doing some self-deing here. And there wasn't that many. I think in total there was like 10 something like that.

>> Maybe let's talk about who um the DAO security fund has helped so far. So kind of like how as a project do I become eligible for um the DAO security fund funds um and uh h how um te tell us about uh the the ones funded. >> Yeah. So, I'll tell you about the past and then then we can also go into the future because I think it's going to be very different and uh very interesting for people. But, uh and specifically for you because I want to talk about EEZ and and figure out how we could even make a deal happen here so we can support the security of of the Ethereum economic zone.

>> I would love that. >> Yeah. Uh but it so in for the last round and what we've done so far is that we actually you actually can go to the Dow.fundtransparency fundtransparency and you can see exactly who we've funded so far. Uh at the top of the list is Seal 911 and SEAL and then Redgild and then Zack XBT, Revoke.cash, Recne News, uh bunch of SEAL groups and and so on and so forth. L2 beats on there, Block Threat, which is a newsletter. Uh we basically had the the QF round was a broad security round and not only did we put in our own 500 ETH, we were able to raise uh 600K from donors and other sponsors. So we were so far we've

actually been able to allocate over a,000 Ether to 135 different security projects. And uh the main thing the every round will have its own eligibility requirements. So the QF round it was all about like you had to have done something in the past. It can't be some brand new idea that you're coming up with just to get money out of this round. And uh you had to have a history of public benefit. Um yeah and that was that was basically it as long as it is security focused. So a lot of projects were education newsletters um even just Twitter influencers uh you know people who white hats who are doing good work you know things like that uh even things like it's a it's a pretty

wide net right kind of like I mean you could you could take kind of like the narrow stance and say okay we pay for formal verification and we pay for smart contract audits but it's not just that right kind of like it's it's much much more And I mean, if you look at Z CL 911 for instance, I mean they they mostly do incident response and I mean they do amazing work. So kind of like we've had to use them before and they are rock stars. Um but it's kind of it's it's a much broader scope than than than you might think when you hear the name, right?

>> Yes, absolutely. Uh at least for the first round it was. Now for future rounds that's not always going to be the case. So, we are looking for uh like narrow scoped rounds eventually. Maybe this next round, maybe not. We'll see. But either way, we are definitely not going to always be so broadly scoped. And we're also not going to be always focused on um you know the like uh like the public good side even. Uh th this next round, the alpha for the next round is really that we are going to do RFPs and grants. uh as as like single one-off ideas. So, uh we're working with the

community to come up with security initiatives. Uh for example, one of them is uh ETH debugging built into the Solidity compiler so that you can have more um clearer like debug logs when you have issues. Another one is formal verification of the Viper client and another one is an ops L2B rating system for OBSSEAC uh audits in the com community. So you can see which projects are taking OPSSE seriously and there can be some accountability in the OBSSE space. So like uh the OBSC one is much more of an RFP uh where it'll be open and anyone can propose to take part in that uh and and

lead that initiative. Whereas the formal verification of the Viper client, well the Viper Foundation has already been working on that for a while uh or like de ETH debug and solidity. Obviously Argot and Walnut are working on that right now. So, uh, you know, those ones are more like grants. And then we're going to work with the ecosystem to try to get these different initiatives funded. Maybe the DAO needs to kick in and maybe the DAO doesn't even need to kick in. Maybe our team can just find uh people who want to support these projects and and then they will uh they will actually come in and uh the money won't even need us, which would be super cool. uh and and they will all be focused initiatives with milestones and

in general we're trying to put forth that all of them have like the last milestone is focused on adoption and usage and like that it's not just build something and hope they come but actually build something and get users and and make some impact uh for like a large milestone at the end. >> That sounds wonderful. I think that does really sound like um it could move the needle especially kind of speaking of OBSC because kind of like I know for a fact that that is way too often frighteningly underscoped.

>> Yeah. And like for the OBSC one specifically, uh I've been talking with OBSC auditors and what they say is a lot of times they do an OBSC audit and then the people who ask them to audit maybe they recommend hey you need to you know for these 10 people you need to buy them all laptops and have them install Crowd Strike which is this EDR software that's very invasive generally against most people's uh like crypto values for instance u but like hey this is what you need to do to stop, you know, so you know if North Korea has compromised you, right? And uh and then people are like, well, thanks for the OBSC audit, but we're not going to do that. Uh there's

no real accountability. They get the audit, but they don't follow the recommendations. So well these guys are recommending them for a reason you know and if we had a public accountability where opsec auditors could say you know if you fulfill these recommendations I can give you a good OPSSE rating then there would be like a reason for people for teams to buy everyone top >> yeah I I I mean reason bigger than kind of not potentially losing your funds right but kind of like it always seems like it's not going to happen to you and I good opsec it it always adds hassle, right? Kind of Yeah, it's it's it's not the same kind

of like I mean even if you've gotten used to um signing uh from a hardware wallet kind of actually um creating the payload and then kind of just copy pasting it to an air gap machine and then creating the signature and copy and pasting it back. I mean, it's kind of like it's it's annoying. It's really annoying. So, um I I see why people don't do it. They know kind of they should, but we also know kind of like we shouldn't eat fast food and we should exercise regularly and kind of like humos is really good for you and McDonald's is bad for you and um kind of probably not drink so much coffee and

kind of use sunblock all the time. And we all know this, but we we we generally are very good at um ignoring that when it's convenient. No. >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. >> G maybe um zooming out a bit. The DAO hack has been it's been Wow. It's been 10 years right? >> Yeah. And if you look at how much money crypto still loses through hacks, what do you attribute this to? Because it seems like this should have gotten easier by now. And I understand that kind of like AI and and so on. And I kind of like I I I I'd also be super

happy to kind of te tell you my take on this, but I know you're someone who's thought about this for really long time. So, I'd be curious to hear why we haven't made much more headway and why using Ethereum isn't much safer um than it actually is. >> Well, I think you nailed it on the right word there. It's safer. You know, I feel like we focus on security so much that we forget about the safety dimension.

Uh, don't get me wrong, like I love the cyber punk. Like, you own your assets. If you want to click a fishing link, you should be able to click a fishing link, you know? Like, I respect that, right? You know, I do. I really do. And I know I say that in justest, but like, you know, I get it. It is it is valuable to have complete sovereignty over your web 3 experience. But actually, most people don't want that. I have been, you know, I found a GTH in 2016 after the Dow was hacked. And the theory of change forgiveth was like, hey, um, you know, non I wanted to build something better than governments. And so Jordy and I and we Jordi Bellina who you work with at the Ethereum uh economic zone, when governments fail to uh provide

value that society demands, people start nonprofits. So nonprofits are actually the free market solution to government. So, if we could make nonprofits, if we could tokenize nonprofits, if we could make Dallas for nonprofits, if we can make nonprofits profitable, we wouldn't need governments, right? And uh but what does that look like? Well, it looks like me onboarding a lot of nonprofits to Ethereum and trying to get them to use non-custodial tools and do it the cipher punk way. And what that really looks like in practice is I've seen nonprofits lose money in crypto in every way you could imagine and it's horribly tragic and traumatizing. Um, Ethereum is super

secure, but it's not safe. There you can get fished. You can have your assets in a smart contract that gets hacked. You, you know, and it might not even the smart contract got hacked. some multi-IG holders got uh you know uh got screwed or or maybe they even rugged the protocol. Uh you can buy bad tokens. You can send money to the right address on the wrong chain. You'd be amazed at how many nonprofits do that. There's so many ways to um to lose your money in crypto. It's kind of like you're driving on a really well-built road, but there's no lines on the road. It's a two-lane highway and there's no guard rail on the side of a cliff. you know, that's that is Ethereum. The road is not going to

collapse into the ocean. It's very secure, but I don't want to drive on that road, and I don't recommend other people do because it's not safe. Uh, and and that's that to me, that's the problem. We we actually and and the goal of the Dow Security Fund, my personal goal, I should say. It's hard, you know, I'd have to like get the curators to agree to this mandate, but for me, what I'm excited about is making Ethereum safer than the banks. We actually have the tech to be safer than the banks. We can do all the tools that the banks use to keep your funds safe and to make sure that you never lose access to your funds. I don't have very many friends who've lost money because of some

centralized fintech provider. I have basically all of my friends have lost money in crypto one way or another like the do you ever remember Deutsch Bank like somehow like screwing people and taking their money like it's very rare but the advantage of Ethereum is that we can remove custodial risk so that one risk parameter doesn't have to be there the banks can't compete with that but it's like it's it's just the by definition they will always have custodial risk So, we can be safer than banks, but we're not. We're not using the same tools. I want to be able to onboard nonprofits into some kind of wallet that

doesn't feel like it's forever dev mode, you know? I don't want them to be able to click fishing links and have it work. I don't even want them to have to see chains. Thank God for EEZ. You know, get rid of chains for us, will you? And then people can actually use UIs that are smart. You know, whether it's an AI agent, I really don't care about the technology that's used. But between AI agents, account abstraction, the EEZ like ZK chains like ZK bridges and all this tooling, we can make really amazing things. We still need insurance which on things. We still need like um you know daily limits, time delays. there's so many

tools that are sitting there for us to use and we don't apply them. Um, so yeah, that's that's my take. We just need to get more serious about making a safe environment for normal people and then like if if that was a priority, we would be there. But we've always had this cipher punk priority and that's great. I think it's important that if people want the cipher punk style, go for it. But we shouldn't force everyone down that route. we should actually give the people what they want, which is safety.

But what's your take? Why haven't we gotten there yet? >> Yeah, it's actually it's very similar to yours. So, kind of if you look at I've I've been pissing Ethereum people off with this take, by the way. So, disclaimer. Um I think um the crops direction that Ethereum is going on, it's the right direction for Ethereum for sure. Um so I think um if if you look at transaction throughput and latency and so on, Ethereum is not going to win on those measures. But where Ethereum really shines is on the censorship resistance um piece of it. So kind of like the the the fact alone that

I in in my study um can run an Ethereum full node. Um this is w with kind of like extremely minor overhead um on a DAP node. Um that that's that's crazy to me. So kind of if I wanted to run a Solana full node kind of there's no way I could do it. There's absolutely no way way I could do it. So kind of that that censorship resistance right there that comes from um a um having a um extremely diverse validator network both in terms of jurisdictions and in terms of

geographies and in terms of um clients they use and whether they use um uh cloud services or not, which cloud services they use. kind of like along all of these dimensions. That's crazy. Then look at um look at the bus number of Ethereum. Kind of a serious number of people would actually have to >> I mean this is is is always a little bit macaba but kind of would would actually have to be run over by a bus for Ethereum to actually stop. kind of like it it's it's definitely kind of like to be to I mean to stop right away that that it's impossible but kind of like even down even down the

line kind of it would have to be hundreds or thousands of people um to kind of to die to kind of lose the expertise to kind of continue running this network, right? Um and and Ethereum is doubling down on this. So kind of with um fossil and um inclusionists and so on um we um we are um clamping down on the final um uh on the final pieces where you can't be sure that you don't your transaction doesn't get censored. Right? So kind of I mean that's that's that's a fantastic achievement

right there. My hot take is this is not made for end users. If you are a user, you have probably shouldn't be on Ethereum. It's too dangerous kind of to to kind of you it's too easy to fat finger to send to the wrong network. It's too easy to be fished or to kind of um sign a payload that you don't really understand. Um because who reads AI? Kind of like I don't read by code. So kind of it's it's it's too easy it's too easy to mess up and then you have no recourse. So kind of what whatever you kind of do in real life typically kind of like you you you uh uh

when you send funds you kind of your bank will call you up and say, "Oh, Griff, you really mean to send $20,000 to this Nigerian person?" And you can you can override it. You can say, "Oh, yeah, absolutely. this my friend, he's a prince and like he's he's uh and and then kind of the $20,000 will go to this person. >> Um >> um but in in it um it doesn't allow you to do it without a second question, right? Yeah. And and on Ethereum there is no second question, right? kind of like no one no one you can do um what what whatever you can imagine on Ethereum with a

single click and maybe you shouldn't be able to do that. So kind of like I likened it um to kind of um open water swimming afficionados. So kind of like 10 years ago people said oh you know why I'm not sure why you go to swimming pool. It's kind of like just go to the open water and it's beautiful and kind of like it's better for your health and it's more restorative. It's its nature and and so on. But now imagine can and people enjoyed it. It was lovely and and so on. Um and now imagine um kind of there's a huge shark infestation because so many people went open waters swimming, right? Kind of like there there now we have tons of sharks um in the open waters. How crazy would it be

for us to say, you know what, it's all good. It's still the same ocean. is the same open water swimming. Just just go for it. It's great. Kind of like and just watch out that you don't get eaten by by by by by a shark. Um maybe we should just build something that replicates some of the advantages of open water swimming. So, kind of you could build a seagoing boat um that has um a swimming pool inside of it um where kind of the water from the ocean can kind of splash into that swimming pool, but kind of it most importantly it's got grates. So, kind of the sharks can't come in, but it'll still be like swimming in the ocean. It's kind of like like just kind of like um a cage bit of

the ocean, but still it's it's much nicer than being in in in a swimming pool. Um, and I think and I mean if if if if you're hellbent on it, you can still go swim in the ocean. It's completely fine. It's up to you. Anyone should have that prerogative. But telling people telling people just come to the open ocean, go go go open water swimming. >> It's unconscionable because it's so easy to lose everything. Um, and I mean I think a lot of people in this ecosystem have lost have lost a healthy relationship to money and I don't think they understand what it actually does to people when kind of their life savings

go down the drain because it's and I think um yeah maybe we need to build kind of these oceangoing swimming pool boats to kind of have people in and kind of um absolve them from going to the fintech pools. Um and um I think maybe that should be maybe that should be the mission kind of uh and uh yeah, I mean if you want to go open water swimming, go for it. It's kind of be my guest. But kind of like know the risks.

>> Yeah. And if you go open water swimming and there's a bunch of sharks, maybe bring a boat. Maybe don't swim. Maybe bring a boat or something to protect you like a cage, you know, that that keeps you safe. And uh it sucks to be in a cage, but this is why we can't have nice things. There's sharks in the water, you know. Uh it's it's sad, but uh I completely agree for the most part. Like I I think that you we're going to see a lot of innovation especially with Tradfi coming into the space more seriously uh with like saying like yeah don't be dumb. We're not going to let people screw it up you know uh and building apps that don't let people screw it up

uh is going to be I think the way of the future. And I don't know why it's taken us this long. Like I think I'm a little disappointed about it. It's because it goes counter to the philosophy that we had, right? Kind of like you don't want to constrain people. You want to give them all the options and if kind of like some of the options are bad, you trust them not to not to choose them, right? >> Yeah. >> Um but I think this is also why and I think maybe we can we can dive into this for a little bit. Um this is also why I think the Ethereum economic zone is so immensely powerful. It allows institutions and groups of people and individuals to build zones on top of Ethereum that kind of shares whatever pieces of Ethereum you want to share

synchronously. Um, but that doesn't necessarily um I mean you could have a vanilla one that kind of just lets you interact with everything on Ethereum like you're on Ethereum, but it's cheaper. But you could also have um uh one that that restricts the source of cause in and out you allow um from your network. So you say, "Okay, there's a white list or at least there's a blacklist of things you can't do." Um and uh there's there's maximum trade size that you can do and kind of like kind of like kind of like almost like a policy engine where kind of you don't you don't tell the person well if you're so so afraid kind of in terms of um security why don't you build a policy engine? It's all perfectly

possible on Ethereum. But that's kind of that's that's I mean it is you can build a policy engine. You can you can even build it inside of a safe. Um but people don't do it. It's like people it's like it's like telling people oh you don't like taking your horsedrawn carriage why don't you build a car because it's freaking hard it's freaking hard to build a car maybe kind of like someone should specialize in building cars and build cars for people >> so um yeah >> well the you know Lineia uh to their credit uh worked with this group I think they're called Philax and they have circuit breakers on there and they prevented a lot of hacks by setting up policies or invarants that would you know stop fishers from

being able to make transactions on linear they just >> absolutely so kind of and I mean the way that it works is kind of they they approve your transaction before it's included right so kind of like you you you send your transaction to them and they see whether there there's an obvious exploit if there's no obvious exploit they have it included obviously that's that's fantastic that's a good solution right there um and uh yeah we we we we ought to have more of those. I know Flex has also been funded by you guys. So, uh >> Yes. Yes.

Absolutely. And and and you know, and and because I'm I'm really amazed with their work, right? Just building policies straight into the sequencer that can stop hackers from hacking, right? Like, yeah, that's great. Why is that bad? But, you know, I I'm uh you know, talking with L2s all the time. I'm like, hey, what if people couldn't move a billion dollars, you know, or how about 10 million, you know, if they just can't like if they try to move that much money like there's there's a block they have to break it up into multiple transactions or they can, you know, we can make things a little bit more difficult for the big hacks, right?

Maybe like is it so bad if it takes a day to move $10 million? Is that really like the end of the world? You know, >> it also depends on kind of what what your scale is, right? kind of like if if you're say Microsoft and kind of you move um hundreds of millions of dollars a day kind of maybe your um your tolerance to losing one or two of the these uh packets kind of like once or twice a year is not as bad as if it's kind of like um uh you >> a DeFi hack that where thousands of people lose their life savings you know >> 100% 100% 100% and kind of we actually got a lot of blowback for this for Nosis

chain um with um the balancer hack. So kind of what kind of like the the balancer hack kind of in November of last year. You already alluded to it. So kind of like um 120 million were stolen across um a number of different chains including Nosis chain. Um and luckily kind of the the hacker um focused on other chains first. Um so it gave us time to coordinate with um the validators on Nosis chain and what we actually did is we shipped a soft fork.

To my knowledge it was the first time that anyone has actually done this in production. So kind of a soft hook just means you don't change um the past state. Um but you just collectively agree to not allow transactions to go through that have um a certain property and kind of we didn't allow transactions to go through that touched the account of the funds of the hacker. Um so what what actually ended up happening um is that we did a second fork this time a hard fork where kind of we um uh took the funds from the hacker and kind of redistributed them to the people they

were taken from. Um but we did actually get I mean we we also got a lot of um uh good feedback from people who who said it was the right response and kind of like it was a lot of it was a lot of retail users just using this because Nosis pay nos's chain is used for payments and it was a lot of numies >> who didn't and also kind of like was a balance a v2 poor that that had been unexploited for many years kind of like it was as blue chip as defy gets so it wasn't like people were caught under the fourth BZX hack or something. It's kind of like it was it wasn't people who kind of aped into something. Um it and and to me it would have felt unconscionable to

not try to do anything. So, I mean, you can never guarantee that you can stop everything, but kind of like if you see, for instance, an old lady getting beat up in the town square and kind of having her handbag stolen from her, should you step in if you can? Probably. Yes. And then if it turns out that kind of like actually the old lady's the villain and she stole the handbag from from the supposed robber or something kind of like it can all be cleared up kind of in in the aftermath, right? So you you're you're you're not you're not the final arbiter. Um but kind of just putting a hold to suspicious transactions at least for a little bit. Um I think uh yeah often that can do wonders.

>> Super similar situation with arbitrum and the security council a couple months ago and I also got a lot of push back. We we rescued $71 million from North Korea. We stole money from North Korea that they had stolen before and helped kick off the whole DeFi United $300 million recovery uh from the layer zero hack. And I go to a conference in New York and people are like, "Yeah, you shouldn't have done that." You know, and it's like we took literally $71 million was about to go to North Korea's nuclear program. We were able to stop that and give it and get get everyone their money back uh from this a uh layer zero kelp

dowo is issue and yet people are like no you know >> cipher >> I think you you know you know what I think the problem is I think that the problem is that then kind of you have to define a set of conditions under which you intervene right because people don't like the slippery slope they kind of like they like clean rules and kind of obviously now that kind of like we've we've we've established maybe sometimes you should intervene now you actually have to you have to specify and when exactly should you intervene so kind of should should should I intervene if you fat finger something and you send something to an address that you

probably didn't mean to send it to because kind of you've interacted with the same address on a different network um before. also kind of I can assume you you just selected the wrong network. I should probably stop this. Um should I um stop it if I um I can summize that you just fat fingered because kind of like there's only one character off kind of like from an address that you have previously used. Yeah, probably I should stop that. Um should should I um should I stop a transaction um when you interact with a no known fishing address? Absolutely. Um, should I say, um, oh, Griff, this person you're sending funds to, um, they have previously, um, had problems with, um,

kind of, um, their KYC provider or kind of they they kind of they they didn't pay back friends in the past, maybe you should reconsider. Probably not, right? So, kind of like it's it's a slippery slope. People don't like slippery slopes. People don't like >> degrees of um, uh, different shades of gray. So kind of be because it's easier to say I I commit to just being hands off because the conversation just stops there. And I think kind of it's it's I understand the impulse. I also don't want to be involved in other people's messes, but kind of it I think >> um I think it's a copout. So I think kind

of we'll we'll have to do the work of understanding kind of like where to draw the line. And I think also kind of like different zones on Ethereum will will choose different lines, right? Kind of like they will say, "Okay, we we comply with German law, we comply with um state of Washington law, we comply with >> Ethiopian law, whatever doesn't matter." Um or kind of we we abide by these principles or kind of like then I think that's completely fine. But saying, "Okay, this is a one-sizefits-all approach and everyone uh everyone kind of is completely on their own." Yeah.

>> To to me to me that you're choosing a side one way or the other. Either you choose the hackers or you choose the people. Like I'm sorry, you know, it's it's black and white to me. Any other choice means you're not you're just removing empathy from the equation. And I I can't really do that. That's not that's not where I'm at in life. So >> yeah, >> I for me I I I'm very disappointed that for instance there was the second parody multi-IG hack where Polka Dot had like hundreds of millions of dollars there.

One simple thing could have given back their money and they didn't. We didn't. And I I think it's fine. Like Ethereum's made that choice. It's crops, right? It's like like you said, Ethereum is going to be full of sharks and that's how it is. like if you're playing in Ethereum, know that you're going to get bit once in a while. Uh, and that's fine. But then people can build infrastructure off of that. Like you said, you can put a great in the water, keep the sharks out, you can give everyone a life jacket, you know, you can you can make a safe environment for people and and have a lifeguard watching over and and then you're good, you know, and you can still do it on Ethereum, but going like raw dogging Ethereum is

pretty wild and I wouldn't recommend it for the faint of heart. one more topic I'd love to discuss and that's kind of general ecosystem sentiment because kind of like kind of from where I'm standing it hasn't been this bad in 10 years but maybe let's talk about the let's talk about the easy first and then kind of uh we we we we tackle the depressing topic last >> okay so you know I see it when I approach the Dow security funds approach to uh funding Ethereum security is uh kind of modeled after this concept of Ethereum as an apartment building. Right now, it seems like every project is has their own apartment in the Ethereum apartment building and they're all

focused on securing their own apartment. They have a vault door. They have a dude with a shotgun standing in front of it, you know, and they're all putting metal in their walls and ceilings and floors and trying to secure spend a lot of money to secure their own apartment. And then let's say that some project wants to secure uh with cameras and so they install CA video cameras everywhere and you know that's great but the DA security fund wants to come along and be like dude you want to install cameras how about we save you some money let's let's whatever you going to spend on cameras let's let's cut that in half and put half that money in the pot and let's put cameras in the whole apartment

building you know and it's not going to cost that much more. And you'll be way safer. You'll have a part. You'll have all the cameras where you want them. Plus, every floor will be covered, every room, everywhere. And really, how much more is it going to cost? The cost of a few more cameras, but all the installation, all the thought processes, the subscriptions, that can all be uh like the economics of scale, of security are huge. Like, why don't we have a door man on the apartment building, you know? Why is it this janky lock that's on the front door? like we can do better and the Dallas security fund wants to kind of come along and be like, "Hey, why don't you all kick in to this initiative, right? Like the EEZ I think

there's going to be a lot of interesting security opportunities. Bridge hacks, bridges, this like moving interoperability is a huge issue. so much money is lost and so much there there's so much um like safety issues that come along with bridging and moving money from network to network. Uh it's it's surprisingly risky. And so I feel like there's probably some initiatives that you guys would like to see to improve security around EEC. Of course, you need audits and those sorts of things, but I'm curious like are there any, you know, security initiatives that would make implementing EEZ and bridging in Ethereum way more secure? Like maybe

there's a formal verification of something or like a ZK uh primitive that needs to be worked on or even like how do we add circuit breakers as an option into EEZ? I don't know. Do you I'm really curious because you're at the front line of this of the future of Ethereum interoperability. What security initiatives can you think of that would be useful? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think there's there's there's a couple. So, kind of obviously um kind of audits and uh formal verification of the core smart contracts that would already go a long way and kind of like there's no way we'll launch without multiple audits. Of course, the Ethereum economic zone, the

way that it works is by having its networks prove its state whenever they transact with Ethereum or one of the other zones. Um, so that they can do it synchronously. So in the same transaction there's multiple ways of proving your state and kind of we require that whenever one um zone talks to another you need to at least provide two different proofs. Okay. So kind of the those could be two ZK um proving systems that you use. So kind of we out of the box we support um and SP1 but they could also be TE based or even

just multisig. So kind of that is and this is something where protocols will start to have they will actually have to form an opinion of how secure a proof is right because kind of technically we're not enforcing any particular proof kind of like we want to make it plugand play. Um but but that also means kind of I could use a one out of one multisig where kind of I say okay I I I I say this is cool because I say so um and obviously that's not a very good proof. So kind of um just because something is proven in some sense doesn't mean it's true, right?

Kind of you have to look at um what what um what the proving system >> um actually consisted of. And >> so you could imagine like a L2 beat for provers like some kind of like a like we got to look at each proving system and say how secure it is and actually rate it. >> Absolutely. And I think um I I think uh there there there is something to be said for um mixing and matching proving systems. So I think having for instance a TE based proving system and a ZKbased proving system actually makes a ton of sense because um if there's something wrong in kind of some of the maths and I mean that that's not crazy. It's

happened before, right? Kind of like if you look at kind of um Zcash um vulnerabilities kind of sometimes I mean the C the math is hard, right? So, kind of sometimes there's just a bug in there and kind of like you you you're lucky no one found it before you. Um so, kind of having having a um uh having running this kind of like as a mix and match scheme kind of with kind of, you know, um kind of with additive security in terms of kind of like having a seieve and putting it in a seieve and then in another seieve and so on. Um I I think that's probably h how how we'll >> recommend people go about this um in the future. Um yeah and I think that's that

that's um the first um thing that kind of we we can talk about kind of like on the overarching architect architectural layer and then every zone can kind of implement things like the file like system for instance or kind of and kind of like having more of those because >> if everyone uses files it's also not not a good uh uh system right like you don't want to have single points of failure failure kind of you want different systems that you can you can you can plug into this. So safenet is basically the same idea as well. Um and kind of we should have many more of these and they should be customizable. You should be

able to say this is kind of what I'm screening for and that's the level of risk appetite my users have and so on. So kind of making this fleshing this out a lot more because the Ethereum economic zone architecture is extremely permissive in what it allows its zones to do and I think it's a great benefit but it's also a challenge because kind of when a design space becomes too big kind of it's it gets difficult to explore and sometimes it's easier to kind of just um default to the default settings. So, kind of just coming up with more default settings that people can kind of say, "Okay, maybe this is the right setting for me." I think that would be um that would be wonderful.

>> You just have to make sure the default settings aren't like the same that layer zero had, right? Like where it's not one DVM one out of one. >> Yeah. One out of one multi-IG that thinks everything's good, right? You have to have strong defaults. Uh but I'm a big fan of strong defaults. I think that's the I think that's the the right security path for almost every scenario. But uh >> I I hear you. >> Well, let's maybe kind of zoom back out um and talk about the ecosystem. So, kind of I mean, we've both been in this space for um well over a decade. Um I've never felt the space has kind of it's never been as depressed as it currently is. What's

What's your take? You feel the same way? Well, yeah, but I I guess I'm not like it's just we're not the coolest tech anymore. You know, before we were always the front runners like this is the coolest new tech. Look at this. You know, and I think because of the safe personally I think it's because of the safety issues. We never really like um matured in a way that like people are like, "Wow, this we did it, you know, success. Look, everyone's using Ethereum now." You know, we just didn't get there. Uh whereas like everyone I know uses AI, I and I generally listen to more AI content than crypto content. And I think that's actually pretty common

for most people in crypto right now because we're all huge bleeding edge tech, you know, connoisseurs and just interested in that. And crypto just isn't the bleeding edge. Now the the, you know, the Ether, you buy Ether on the stock market, man. like you know you can you know Tom Lee is like basically a you know EF ETF guy he's got 5% of Ether and you know like Black Rockck is is built is talking about how great Ethereum is like who I'm sorry like how can you be excited about this stuff this is like the antithesis of why Ethereum was initiated this is not how any of us

expected it to go of course it's disappointing uh you you know, and but I don't think that that's that's like a that's a vibe. In the end, this tech is amazing. And I still think that it is going to be an important part of how we restructure society. Maybe it's a second maybe it's second fiddle to AI. Could be that could be the way it goes. Um but I don't think it's like going to lose its place and it's just the bare market, you know? I mean, it's the bare market multiplied by okay, the bleeding edge tech is elsewhere. So, you know, and that's very disappointing to me. I don't know what's your take on

the on the state. >> I I feel like there's also a loss of meaning. Um, I think kind of like it kind of it it's kind of just another facet of what you pointed at. Um but I think kind of we also liked defining ourselves as an alternative and now kind of it's it's be kind of blockchain has been started being used as an efficiency upgrade for Wall Street and I think to some extent that just feels gling because kind of the paradigm shift that a lot of us kind of came here for kind of like the the shared ownership and coordination economies and um kind of

got kind of those never really materialized. Um and I think a backend upgrade for Wall Street, it's worthwhile. It's just way less. Um >> you know, I'm I'm still optimistic though. Those like, you know, circles for instance is a great economic system, really interesting, innovative uh UBI solution that will be there when we need it. I'm still a believer that with this technology, we can build economies around true value production that our current system doesn't recognize. For instance, like the value of coordinating around cleaning a river, you know that there's there's economic value in for

instance taking care of homelessness. I'm in Seattle right now and it's incredible how much homelessness there is, right? And you go to downtown Seattle and there are just these like this. There are people camping in the streets and in parking lots and guess how much economic value is lost from people frequenting restaurants in that area. The land value that goes down, right? Just like economic value alone, not even the sentimental value and and the vibes, right? Just pure economic value.

>> And the storefronts are are empty and kind of like you don't want to be there. Yeah. It's >> it's a downward spiral. >> I still believe that this technology has the power to build economies to address those problems because if you it would more value would be created for the land owners in a downtown area to address the homelessness issue headon than it would cost to address the homelessness issue. there is a clear like uh you know opportunity there and I do believe this is the technology that can do it. The problem is it's not safe enough for people to use. It's not safe enough for the store owners to actually use it. So why would you build something for them

when they can't even use the tech, right? And that's this is really where why I'm here. This is why I found myself in the security side of things trying to make Ethereum safe for normal people to use because everything I want to do with it and I think most of the reason most of the stuff you want to do with it and like all of our friends all the stuff that we want to do with it we can't do it because it it's supposed to affect normal people. It's supposed to help normal people and normal people can't actually use our tech. They can use AI you know they just can't use what we're doing in blockchain. So if we fix that, if we actually make it safe enough for people to use, we can start addressing some of these things. And you know, we

we h we'll have more bull markets uh in the future, I'm sure. >> That is a fantastic note to end on. Griff, um when we if people want to learn more about the DA security fund, where do we send them? >> Uh well, you can follow me on Twitter or the DAO on Twitter. I'm Griff Green uh on Twitter. No space. Uh also the DAO is the Dowof fund on Twitter. You can also go to the Dow.fund and you can see all the stuff about us. You can connect with us there. Uh and you know get on our mailing list and and be you know find out about all the opportunities that we're doing. Uh the the big alpha is that we're running for we're trying to collect security initiatives. So, you already came up with I just talking with

you about uh Ethereum economic zone, I had like three or four different ideas of like initiatives that we could do to make Ethereum safer. We're going to try to get those things funded. So, if you have any security initiatives that you think can really make Ethereum better, uh reach out to me, please, and let's work through it and let's try to get them funded. Um I I think there's a lot of opportunity here. We're spend too much money on security. uh and we get too little impact back for it. I I think we need to we can change that and hopefully the DAO uh can help make that happen.

>> Perfect. Thank you so much for being on again Griff. >> Thank you, Richard.