The Daily Gwei Drive Thru #9 with Anthony Sassano and Eric Conner | Taking profits, ETH is AI money

Transcript

hello everyone welcome to another episode of the delway drive-thru I'm your host anthonyo and I'm here today with Eric Connor to talk about all things ethereum hey Eric how you going hey doing good I mean good to be back I think it was only a two week Hiatus so we haven't rugged too hard but um I mean obviously markets are heating up it's a good time to be in E so I'm excited to talk yeah yeah it's actually only been a week I think we our last episode came out last week but we did it on like the Tuesday and then it came out on the Saturday so people are spoiled for content right now that's for sure but yeah I mean eat that 3K right like when's the last time e was at 3K like almost two years ago now I think when uh

we were crashing because of the terror kind of implosion yeah I think everything was kind of starting to blow up I actually oddly did the math of how many time I didn't even tweet this I just did it myself this how lame I get at times just for my own interest but Ethan's only closed 30 weekly candles above or 30 daily candles 30 weekly candles above 3,000 and wait let me now now I'm doubting myself yeah I think that's right 30 I think it's 30 weekly candles above 3,000 but only four above 4,000 so we're we're like in Uncharted Territory is my general Point here so like as I was saying on Twitter the other day kind of breaking through 3,000 to me is

almost like price Discovery for eth right like we're in this totally Uncharted like most of my eth livelihood has been between you know zero and 2000 I feel like and then 2500 became a meme and that whole like 1500 to 2500 area so we're we're like embarking on a little bit of Uncharted Territory which always feels nice as a eth holder yeah yeah and it kind of feels like 3,000 is the new 300 right I remember back in the last cycle um actually cycle before like in 2020 once eth broke 300 I think we were all you know like oh my God yeah it's on you know finally the bull Market's on like it's prop it's coming it's back and it was much more R last time I think for eth holders because we obviously had to

put up like deal with a 94% draw down in 2018 and then 2019 e BTC kept going down like a lot and then ended up down like over 90% as well uh but yeah in 2020 once eth broke 300 I remember distinctly people got very excited and I think the same is true with with 3,000 right now and it's still like hovering around 3,000 it's just like those nice round numbers that Traders like to take advantage of where they're like I'm going to sell this because everyone's going to sell here and it's I mean it's kind of a short-term thing I think but I think the more interesting story is maybe eth BTC as well cuz we mentioned last time I think last week that we thought that eth BTC had had really bottoms uh because of all the nice Tailwinds that are coming towards e way

not just the ETF but a bunch of other things like reaking and so on and so forth uh and it has so far I mean again I don't want to curse us here but you know ebtc has gone up since then and it seems to have refused to go below that 0.05 Mark which is really promising right and really good to see the eth is starting to to outperform and I think that you know the La the for about 3 months of last year I think the last 3 months of 2023 everyone was kind of like oh well you know the bull Market's going to skip eth you know ether has lagged so much ether is a shitcoin and then as per usual like me and you and a few others were just like well we've heard this before we know what's going to happen

when eth starts moving and of course A lot of the things that had outperformed against eth are now getting crushed against it right because everyone's like oh my God I don't have eth I need to get into eth right so these things just kind of tend to work in Cycles um but I think that's actually a perfect kind of segue into the first topic of today's episode which is all about I guess a general kind of uh um not not Trend I should say like a general kind of thing of like how to take profits in crypto because last week we obviously spoke a lot about the bull case for for eth what we think eth is going through this cycle and and Beyond you know in the decades to come but that doesn't mean that you should just like hold eth and not sell ever

sort of thing or hold other assets and not sell ever like taking profits I think is the absolute hardest thing for any crypto native to do uh with investing like it's it's it's relatively easy to buy I think um you know especially during like the quieter periods but taking profits is extremely hard because there are so many kind of different uh uh things happening when you're wanting to take profits because it's obviously going to be a bull market when you ideally take profits and there's so many different kind of narratives being shied there's so much you get caught up in them you know you get caught up in making all this money really quickly and thinking oh it's going to be up only right super cycle all those sorts of things um but I wanted to start with you Eric because you honestly like are the person uh like

at least from from my point of view the person I know best who has managed to play these Market Cycles you know really well managed to take profits and then buy back in and increase your kind of like overall stack without just being like just just holding right the holding is fine uh and we're not talking about like buying and selling on the day-to-day basis or anything like that we're talking about basically going through a whole macro crypto cycle of like what the foure cycle right like buying when it's quiet selling when it's hot uh and kind of having strategies around that so yeah Eric I'd love to to get your take on all of that and kind of what your strategy has is typically Bane yeah I mean I think first like it takes experience right like early on and I've talked about this a lot what between us

and on the podcast and stuff like early Bitcoin days I thought I knew what I was doing and like Leverage trading and thinking it was up only and and lost a lot of Bitcoin right and I've got now gone through four crypto Cycles pretty much like this is embarking on the fourth and I think what I've realized most is most importantly you can always Reby the next bottom right like that's what mentally I've come to realize and I think my top prediction of the last Market of 2500 you know we went on Bank list like you and I talked about this a lot with and it became like a meme on Twitter and like people kind of bust my balls for that but at the same time like it wasn't that far off right and like

that's what I think of when I'm like trying to like buy and sell bottoms and tops like if you can be like somewhat in that ballpark um you're going to do pretty well well so I think that's kind of my first advice like if you're in that range you will probably do well like don't obsess with actually calling a top and selling actually calling a bottom and buying and of course like this also goes to like your personal situation right like me personally I've been in crypto now over a decade right and I'm I'm probably earlier than most people listening to this podcast and that that's not like that's truly not a flax like I'm just trying to explain like my part of the cycle like if you've been in it over 10 years and you haven't sold anything it's probably time to sell

like a little bit I would I would think and if you're just getting into it maybe you can like write out a little bit more but like it's more about like just understanding the Mania of cycles and I think we're like early bow like quarter of this cycle like things are starting to heat up but like pick a number to you as an investor and as like someone that's in crypto that sounds nice to you as someone that that you would want to sell at and like start setting your sell prices there so like an you know this because we talk a lot but offline but like I always pick a a bull market Target for myself and last cycle that

was 2500 um funny enough in the first East cycle so for those who don't know I was in like the pre-sale so my first eth was under a dollar and I was buying everywhere from 30 cents all the way up to 10 bucks I was just buying Relentless dips and then I said to myself if this thing goes to 1,400 I'm going to sell some what's really funny is400 was the top now ironically my my sell orders I said every $10 from 1400 up to like 2,000 at that point only two of those hit right because we only went to 1420 and I kind of like reassessed on the way down and I wanted to get some out so I kind of like I said okay I missed that and I sold some at a th000 and went all

the way down and I bought a bunch at 80 and at that cycle I said okay well my Top's 2500 now I sold a pretty decent chunk at you know between 2500 and 3,000 which wasn't the top which that's fine like I never go a day where I'm like oh God I I missed 4,900 right um and then I had some dry powder to buy on the dip here in the last like two years and now my target for eth is like 20,000 I'll probably honestly start stacking cells like 15 to 25 but again this isn't like my whole stack right like I think one of the things people don't understand in crypto a lot is like if someone says they're selling it doesn't have to be like all their eth right I I I haven't sold all my eth and

I've been in this over a decade you can like sell a little bit and be happy buy something for your family buy a house whatever right as things go up and then if set some cash aside and when things go down Reby right like we know these Cycles happen and it's very important to be a part of that cycle like you're going to beat most people like imagine just me from like buying at 80 selling at 2500 people like busted my balls for not selling at 4,000 but the same time like I mean I made great money and then I was able to Reby at the bottom and now sure I'm maybe my target sounds crazy at 15,000 to 20,000 but I don't know if it doesn't hit it I'm

still doing fine right so it's just more about like being in that range and having that mindset of I don't have to be like all in on crypto right like I it doesn't have to consume me forever and like this is a great asset it's doing well and it's good to just like kind of think about these things so that that's personally how I've always approached it yeah yeah and I think that we have definitely similar approaches here and maybe my Approach has has been influenced actually I would say definitely has been influenced with talking to you over the years I remember a lot of our conversations early on when you know I only got into ethereum in 2017 and I had a pretty small Bank role like for the next 3 years after that uh whereas with you obviously you you know you got in a lot earlier so you were on

a different kind of I guess position to where I was but what helped me was like I wasn't comparing myself to you or anyone else I was like I'm running my own race I'm I've got my own money invested and I'm doing whatever I can to increase the amount of money I have to both invest and the amount of money I have I I can make from from this thing and I have gone on record multiple times saying I haven't sold any of my eth but I sold other things for eth you know I've increased my eth stack by taking profits from other and that's another thing that I think a lot of people you were talking about people thinking you know in a binary sense about this where it's like you don't have to be all in you don't have to be all out and you

don't have to just trade it for cash you can actually just like use these other assets and trade them into eth when you think that these other assets have become overheated against eth and knowing when it becomes overheated is is quite difficult there's a lot that goes into that that's generally how I think about that but the the the two things I think of when I think of okay when am I going to sell these things and when am I going to take profits out the number one thing is what am I actually selling it for like am I selling it for cash okay what am I buying with this cash like do I want to go buy myself a new house do I want to buy a new car do I want to help my family out you know those sorts of things like what are you actually using

that cash for right because that that's number one and number number two is uh if I'm selling and I'm going to cash like am I going to buy back in with this like do I have a plan to buy back in to eth or some other asset am I going to reinvest this and those two things have helped me a lot because in 2021 was the first time I actually took substantial profits out of crypto uh that that was my first cycle where I I was actually able to take substantial profits out and I took out enough basically to uh buy you know get my house and and get myself you know a few nice things here and there buy some more figurines as we all know I like to do right those sorts of things um you know help uh help friends and family out and stuff like that where

I could uh but then I was like you know what like I've done that but and now I've got all these cash that I'm sitting on what am I going to do well I'm like I'm going to reinvest it like obviously I'm going to re I'm not going to just hold it in cash especially at the time when the rates were like pretty much 0% for a lot of that time you weren't even getting much on your cash right so I did that and I reinvested it in uh I mean Angel Investments I do a bunch of that but also I bought a lot of eth uh you know around the bottom like I think I got a bit at the exact bottom but that it happened so quickly I bought I lot around a thousand um because I was like you know what this is ridiculous you

know I feel like this is a good good place to buy uh bunch of based on a bunch of different reasons but that's kind of like how I how I view it here you know I think for a lot of people the main mistake that they make is not thinking about that at all what they do is they basically say Okay I want to make a million dollarss right or some some kind of number like I want to make a million dollars and then let's say their portfolio goes up to$ 500,000 and that's it that's all it goes to well if you've got in your head that you want to make a million dollars then you're most likely not going to sell if you've only made 500,000 because you've got this imaginary number that you've just come up with that you want to sell out and

I've seen this happen to so many people they set this this number and they don't sell and they write it back down and they have to wait a whole another cycle uh just for the chance of getting to that point again so the best thing to do is never do that never set like I want a million dollars here what you should do is you could you should basically look at okay well as you were explaining Eric what are the actual prices of the assets that I'm going to sell at based on a bunch of things like we explained last week how our 15 to 20K price target for eth is based on a bunch of different reasons um and then as you go down the risk curve it's actually a lot harder because you have to now like speculate on these very early stage projects that

uh you know may die in in this cycle and never come back like a lot of projects from last cycle are never coming back right so you have to kind of look at you know uh the prices that you're going to be selling these things and when you're going to be taking profits and the the last thing is you you mentioned that where it's extremely important not to try and time the bottom and time the top because you're never going to do that successfully right like most people will never ever get the exact bottom exact top you want to do it within a range and I've actually spoken about this on my refuel show where I said that you have much longer to sell in a b sorry to to buy in a be/ crab market in defined range than you do to sell because you

mentioned before you said that 2500 was your like kind of top Target and you would made fun of but the thing is is that we went from 2500 to 4,400 and then within a span of a week it went down to 1,700 right so you you sold at like the right you sold like the middle ground there and you stuck to that Target and that's the most important thing to is actually sticking to that Target like you had a Target that you set and you stuck to it so it doesn't matter that you didn't catch the exact top or whatever like your chances of even catching that are really small because you would have had to catch it within a very short period of time you said it at at the start where you're like ether's been above 4K for like 4 weeks or something like that out of the the whole

kind of cycle there so yeah setting I guess like to recap on my side of things um you know coming knowing the reasons that you're selling is a big big motivator too it's like are you selling to cash because you want to buy reinvest later because you think the Market's too hot you're going to reinvest later selling to cash because you want to buy things you know house car whatever uh selling into or taking profits into eth because you think that it's this thing has just pumped too hard against eth and you want to take profits into eth right and then depends what you want to do with that e either you you hold that as a long-term stack or you take profits on that and then also not setting portfolio goals as your cell Target setting price goals of the assets as your cell Target

because Port like seriously I think that's actually the worst thing you can do is set a portfolio goal because I've done this before and I I I I was basing my portfolio goal on what I wanted not what was actually achievable in the in the you know not even the uh the long-term future and like the future of of a cycle you know I think in 2013 when I first got into crypto I did the same thing as you like I traded away a lot of Bitcoin on on stupid stuff like I think I back then I put like ,000 or $2,000 into the market I was pretty much like broke after that I didn't have much money at the time uh because I was I was young and you know I was working here and there but I didn't really have much savings and I put it in and I'm like

damn it if I want to make like 100 Grand my goal at the time was like 100 Grand like if I want to make 100 grand out of one1 to $2,000 I'm not going to do it with Bitcoin you know bitcoin's already pumped a lot it's already worth a lot I'm going to do with Bitcoin so of course I went down the risk curve and I traded Litecoin and Dogecoin Co and Quack coins just random coins I traded all these things and of course I ended up with less than I had and then I kind of exited crypto in 2014 so I think that's that's a key Point as well is that once you you're setting portfolio goals like that you your kind of like objectivity goes out the window and now you start chasing that and it becomes very very hard to sell in that

environment yeah I like that last Point like setting portfolio goes goals in USD can be a little dangerous right like it's I think a lot of people listening to this should be setting portfolio goals eth which means maybe sell a little at the top and Reby at the bottom right and get more e like if you if you truly believe this is one of the lessons I wish I knew a long time ago if you truly believe in the future of crypto try to accumulate more crypto right and that's like one of the things that I don't like about people saying oh just hold all right like no like I I think you can see these Cycles right of boom and bus like greed and fear if you can read those a little bit you can probably

add to your crypto stack now of course like if you like taxes get involved and that gets all weird but I mean if you if you can time a little bit of a top and a bottom and you can afford to sell a little of that I mean at a minimum you can add to your East stack right and I think that's like if I could go back to myself like you back in 2013 or whatever I think that's the one lesson I would probably teach myself and like I will kind of finish this um thought on my end here but crypto is not the first Market that like experiences all this stuff like if you go back I would suggest people read the book um devil take the hindmost it it talks about like financial markets throughout time starting at like the Tulip craze all the

way through like all the way till today and you'll realize that these markets are just human psychology more than anything and of course like it the asset itself has to be something that offers like you know something to society or community at that time but the the basic point of the book is most of this is human emotion I think crypto of all markets in the history of mankind has been able to bring out human emotion the most because we've been able to bring in the entire world to this um at the same time it's 247 anybody in the world and you see this emotion the charts played

out um more than you ever have in the past and I think history books are obviously going to be Rewritten when it comes to crypto and investing but at the same time like this stuff has happened in the past and if you can like kind of capture the essence of human emotion in the charts and kind of see that um as much as I think East someday is going to like a 100K a Mill and a Beyond like I don't don't quote me on that like tomorrow like this is I've said more than anybody this is a multi-decade play like that's maybe 50 years down the road that doesn't mean like you can't take profits and ride the wave down of human emotion and Reby and add to your e stack right so I think um if you're curious in

like that kind of stuff like I said that book I just mentioned devil take the high most there's lots of books out there about like just General market human emotion but I think that is plays out in crypto almost more than any other Market in human history definitely definitely and and I think um the one note I want to make about all of the stuff that we're saying as well is that uh doing this strategy is really really difficult and most people actually fail even if they've got this strategy in mind so I feel like some people like oh well if if these more experienced people tell me what to do then I'll be a better Trader or I'll be a better investor it doesn't work like that unfortunately because I can tell anyone or you can tell anyone whatever our experiences we've had you

know whatever they should do and shouldn't do but at the end of the day I've given not investment advice but like just general advice or just told people what I do generally and like most of those people people do not listen to me like at all like they they actually think they know better than me and they go and do their own thing now I think that it just depends on the type of person you are like if you got a big ego you're obviously not going to be listening to other people right if you um you know think that I'm some kind of watched up Boomer doesn't understand the current matter of crypto investing because I'm you know I'm just buying eth instead of meme coins then of course you're going to be like a this guy is not in it anymore you know he's he's

washed up so that's fine like I don't care if people think that about me but the problem becomes is that if you're like a first cyc an inexperienced you're going to get burnt like 100% of the time like I I actually would love to know if there's any first cyclers kind of out there that hasn't been burnt in a big Way by just being inexperienced and I'm not talking about like first Cycles just within crypto I'm just like in general with investing like you when you go first go into investing as like you can read all the books you want and you can actually get all that really great knowledge but it comes down to your actions at the end of the day like no one can control what you do and if you've got an ego as typically younger investors do have a very big ego because

they think that they know better and I mean I was one of them definitely when I was I was younger especially in my early 20s you know I feel like I'm you know I've got all I've got all the time in the world because I I wasn't you know tied down by anything I didn't have any responsibility so I'm like yeah I'm just going to use all this money to invest I'm going to make you know all this money I'm going to buy Lambos and all that right so a lot of people think like that and that's the Trap that they fall into so doesn't matter how much other kind of stuff that they can read that tells them not to do that I think the best lesson is learned but through experience and experiencing that yourself and that's why I think the most successful investors I know within

crypto um and there's not that many of them honestly but there is there is a handful of them that have won really really big over the last 10 years they have uh won because of experience they've stuck in the game you know they've stayed in the game they've leared from their own mistakes they haven't just learned from other people and they haven't had an ego about it I mean we saw all the people with egos blow up in 2022 like literally every single one of them blew up right the three ARS Capital guys dwan SBF Alex mashinsky from Celsius like they all blew up and I think a large part was due to their ego they just thought that the you know it was going to keep going it was going to it was going to uh keep going up only super cycle I mean even

the ogs like Barry silbert have completely ruined themselves too like he was in since what 2013 2012 or something you think he should be some Mega billionaire from being so early into crypto and being a part of things and he was at one point maybe he still is technically on paper because of the businesses that he owns but he like if I don't know if people have seen like just how bad what he's done seems to be like he's accused of all this fraud that's happened you know all this other stuff that's that's been happening in the background there so at the end of the day yeah I think you need to keep that in check you need to keep your ego in check you need to keep learning you need to experience it for yourself in order to become a a successful investor and uh

the last thing I'll say on that as well is it's kind of funny that you know we stayed like pretty low for a little while there where eth was I think Bel between 1,00 and 1500 for like six to 8 months or something like that uh and BTC was in its like range as well like around 25k or below 25k or something like that for a while and people would still be like well no this wasn't the bottom the FTX classs wasn't the bottom there's going to be a lot more stuff coming out and then we're going to keep selling off you know the macros ruined blah blah blah so on and so forth but what people don't understand is that markets are forward-looking markets will price things in I know it's a meme people say it's not priced in I'm like guys like a lot of the time it actually

is priced in like that that's the thing you meme about it but it's not obvious that it's priced in until maybe a little bit of time has passed and then you're like in hindsight you're like oh my God okay it was it was priced in and I I got wrecked because I thought it wasn't because if people were paying attention inflation in the US peaked June 2022 that was the eth bottom and then the BTC bottom was the FTX collapse right so yes there were other things that collapsed and and other people got watched out and obviously like the the macro environment narrative The Narrative was that it was going to all implode and and there was Wars and stuff as well like the Ukraine war and there was the the the recent one with Israel um and Gaza and stuff like that right but the point is is that like

you get sidelined by thinking like this by falling into this trap of listening to to all these people who are just like yeah it's going down it's going and then it just keeps going up and then the reason it keeps going up is because all these sideline people are suddenly like oh my God I need to buy in now but then what happens is you're fooing in and that that's even more dangerous I think so I that's good for people to keep in mind because I've had this conversation with a lot of people in the daily gay disco Channel where I said to them like guys like I'm not not trying to give you investment advice here but you're all falling for this like propaganda like like this this this Duma bear propaganda like there are people that have actually made The Big Short the movie The Big

Short their entire personality where they think that they there's some kind of like murky underground of the markets that's going to Bubble Up and it's going to blow up and everything's going to go to [ __ ] that did happen in crypto but it happened in 2022 like the thing is it already happened and people are like oh no there's still more to come you know still more it's like guys like we already went through this like there's no need to keep speculating here and and in the history book you spoke about devil take the hos I haven't read it yet but I think that that speaks to that point right where this has happened in history and if you learn from that you can position yourself better uh going forward yeah I think I think the general um like human intuition these days with media

and social media is to like expect the worst soon which I think is a great thing for crypto honestly because I think people just like want to dump it and like if you can hang in there right it's it's going to look good in the long run so yeah I mean I block when when it comes to investing invest in eth eth if that's what you believe in right if and just some conviction about it just stick around like I've been in E for a long time now because I actually believe in it right like I truly truly think that it's going to become like the programmable money of the future I truly think like like eventually companies and Banks and nation states are going to all

transact on ethereum like I actually think that right I think all Art's going to happen here I think all gaming is going to happen here through layer 2 like you know I this is my actual conviction and investment thesis so I think first and foremost make sure you have that don't just be chasing something you don't truly believe in right like I I I think this is you know it's funny for me to even say World computer like I've been thinking recently right like this world computer meme we used to all hate because Bitcoin Maxis would like Hammer that in on us and say you guys don't have a monetary policy it's not a money it's a world computer it's digital oil but now that I think back to that like that to me that is like the vision for ethereum at this

point right with layer twos and now that we have like a sound money policy like this idea of a world computer um and programmable money and I I I think maybe one of the questions that we might talk about is eth is AI money right but um I I think this all plays into you you have to have this investment thesis you have to disgustingly believe in eth to like stick around and make money right like you and I have survived because we like are obsessed with the idea of ethereum right we we haven't wavered and I I think that's what some people don't truly get if you if you don't have this like true conviction this Obsession in

your investment you're G to get shaken out early like I if I didn't really really believe in ethereum I would have got shaken out at $10 right like you know people always say oh I would have just bought eth at a dollar that' been great I'm like no you I had to be like mentally [ __ ] like conviction on you right like so I think yeah as much as we could talk of like buying bottoms selling tops like you also have to just like truly believe this is the future and if you don't that's fine and if you're in it for that okay like for the hot the hot money but like that does have to kind of like back up your Theses at the end of the day and and I think that's what's probably one of the hard bits about

investing in crypto as well is that there's not many assets that you can actually have that kind of conviction on right like I can only think of two and it's BTC and eth like I I can't actually look at anything else right now and have that same conviction that I do on on eth like BTC I don't really have that conviction on but I understand why other people do of course but when it comes to to eth I'm I'm the same as you right like I I I'm still holding my eth like I'm staking it all you know I'm I'm I'm not planning to sell it so like and and I've made my whole kind of like I guess life about ethereum because I just believe in it so much and I believe in everything that ethereum is doing and that makes it easier to hold eth of

course for me and it makes it easier to keep buying more I think for me holding it's fine but like even buying even more that than you know of something that I don't even plan to sell so for me it's like a a kind of thing of well I just want more eth right I want more eth because I love E I have a lot of confidence in it and and and so on and so forth but then I think people fall into this trap of misdirecting that energy to other assets where they're like okay I'm really bullish on eth you know I believe in ethereum but I got to hedge my bets right I got to buy these other things the hedge my beds and there's nothing wrong with doing that mind you and and the thing is if you do it successfully you would basically buy

it at the start of the bull market sell it like towards the end and then you'd probably make money because just everything goes up in a bull market but what a lot of people tend to do is that they mistake their their confidence in the asset for the asset actually doing well because ether's gone down multiple times like a huge chunk it went down 94% in 2018 even so you could have believed in eth in ethereum all you wanted but you still if you bought it at at you know even if you bought it at $1,000 you lost a lot of money are doing that right or on paper at least if if you held it you obviously are up now but you know on paper you lost kind of a lot of money there so I think that conviction is is is like most of the the equation here

but like misdirecting that towards an asset that doesn't deserve it and that ends up just being like a dud and never comes back and just permanently 95 plus% down uh and you just keep holding it right and you don't actually cut your losses that can affect your other investment decisions because then you start Revenge trading where you're like oh I lost money here I need to make up for this you know I'm down I need to make up so then you start getting even more emotional about your Investments and that usually leads to ruin and I've seen this ruin multiple people uh over over the years so I think that uh you know you can have an investment thesis on something but if you really have a thesis on something it has to be long longterm within crypto because short-term stuff you you can't have an

investment thesis of 12 months like you your investment thesis of 12 months is not an investment thesis it's a trade thesis like I wouldn't consider that to be an investment it's a trade right where it's basically it would basically boil down to well I think the bull Market's coming back everything's going to pump this narrative is hot right now so I'm going to buy this asset and then I'm going to sell it at this point and that's fine you do that you know that's if you can do that Su successfully you can rotate the profit into eth and a lot of people I know do this but then people would normally mistake this and say oh well this is my new long-term investment I have a lot of a lot of conviction on this you know this is going to kill ethereum you know this is going to uh uh

uh be great for like a five plus year hold and and 99% of the time it's not ethereum is a is a is a very unique uh asset with not just within crypto but just generally there are not many assets that return so much over so such a long period of time uh per cycle right because you have like BTC that's obviously done it from day one ether has done it from day one and if you know if it goes to 20k that's like a more than 20x from from its from its bottom uh and I guess last cycle it did like a 50x or 60x I think from its bottom of of $80 there and then the previous cycle from its bottom I think it bottomed at like what $5 in 2016 I think after the Dow exploded $6 it went to ,400 so like each

cycle yeah there's diminishing returns but it's still returning a massive amount but then you go and look at all the other popular assets from back then right they probably went up once in 2017 and then that's it they they they just went down and that was it they're not they're not in the picture anymore right or maybe at the tail end of the last bull market or the previous one they uh they basically went up you know a little bit uh and they didn't get to their new all-time highs and they just you know sold off but it depends what you're benchmarking against too like are you looking at against USD are you looking at against eth uh because against eth honestly guys I don't suggest looking at many charts against eth it's disgusting it's really bad like you think it looks bad against USD and then

you look at it against eth and you're like okay I've seen some charts like down 99% against eth yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah so that yeah that's that's kind of like another I guess thing there as well but I mean unless you've got anything left to add their Eric hopefully that answers a lot of people's questions on that I mean we could talk about this for ages but we have a bunch of other stuff we want to get through um I I did want to move into that thing you mentioned about eth being AI money now it's funny because people think that this might be like a new narrative or something that's just being shielded because it's trendy uh and you you know you've made the argument on Twitter that it's not so I'd love for you to kind of outline why eat's AI money and what that

even means really yeah I feel like people cringe maybe because like the new buzzword are AI right but like in all reality like AI is the next tech boom right I mean we're seeing that around chat gbt and I mean Google and everyone Twitter's releasing their own Ai and I mean Apple's apparently releasing their new Ai and the new iOS update like that AI is going to be the next tech boom there's no doubt about it I mean Nvidia Stock's going through the moon because of the chipmaker for all this stuff so I think it's best just to not like buy into that this is like a buzzword narrative I think we just like the reality is AI is next right so if we

just like Center ourselves there and think about that um e e's main narrative or best narrative to me has always been programable money right so if you think of like AIS they get asked to do task and whatever if someone asks them um to like send money or create some kind of concept on money where is that going to be ethereum is front and center for that right ethereum is literally a programmable money that an AI could interact with right an AI could literally be like oh yeah I want to write the smart contract or I'm going to interact with a oh you said you wanted to borrow $2,000 versus your $500 or versus your $ 5,000 in collateral let's

go do that on ethereum right like we are greatly positioned to do that and I don't think The Narrative of eth is AI money is like capturing on buzzwords I think it's a branch off of eth is programmable money right um and if you think about like AIS now are closed which this brings in an interesting debate right like so it's most every AI to this point has been closed Source I my personal opinion is the end state of AI will have to be open source because we've seen a lot of like weird things around like rules and stuff I don't want to get into all that but like these these companies can like program their own like intelligence

rules into these systems I think humity is going to demand open source eventually now imagine we eventually get open source AI then that AI is going to want to use open- Source free software blockchains like ethereum and I'm I'm not talking like putting AI on ethereum I'm literally just talking about AI interacting with the ethereum blockchain in E itself as money right because if you said to an AI right now like um write me an app on PayPal and like send 50 bucks to Anthea on PayPal that would require like PayPal to create a plugin to that AI

specifically um and us both to install that plugin on our app and then that has to happen if you said that to any AI today on ethereum and said hey send 50 bucks to or anything so I think people get like so caught up in this buzz word oh why you saying AI money no like e is programmable money it always has been and this AI narrative like I'm not saying tomorrow Google is gonna or uh chat DPT or any of those are going to like enable this feature per se but I think you can basically get there

already I don't think you can like sign transactions yet on them but it's very close I've used it to like um if I have a very complex like I was just doing my taxes the other day like you know my tax transactions I use GPT to load either scan up and tell me what's happening in one of my transactions because I kind of like forgot what was happening and it it broke it all down like it this is a public Ledger that it can understand right and it has free use to interact and use it too and I think people just programmable money was like an early narrative right and if we're going to start talking like Ai and robots using it like I mean East front and

center right there's there's no one that can beat it yeah and I think the perfect kind of point on this and perfect example of this to kind of hit this whole thing home is that the ethereum blockchain today is mostly used by machines right it's not used by humans like who do people think are uh kind of paying the gas fees on layer one it's not it's not and and paying them like constantly I mean it's human sometimes but most of the time it's the me Bots right like the the ones keeping the market prices in check the ones kind of doing their you know sandwich attacks and stuff like the negative M but still it's it's Bots right yes the Bots have been programmed by humans and yes they aren't technically what you would consider to be AI but there's no reason for them not

to be and I'm pretty sure that there's probably some M Bots that are either already incorporating AI into them or will eventually just be like full-blown completely autonomous the humans won't have any interaction with them anymore it would just be like a kind of thing where the human says hey go find me the most profitable onchain me strategies and send all of the profits to my ens basically right um and then from there essentially what you have is a bunch of AIS just competing with each other which is kind of hilarious because right now we have humans riding the the Bots competing with each other but then when the Bots can learn for themselves and kind of adapt uh it's going to be kind of wild to see how that looks like and and what that looks like on chain and because there's a lot of financial kind

of motivations behind this it starts to get really really crazy um I think that yeah people anyone doubting eth's AI money uh even and and saying that it's just a kind of buzzword the AI might you know word might be a buzz word at this point but the kind of uh the the fact that the fact is as you said it is programmable money that's real that's been real since day one that is really the kind of thing that enables everything on top of ethereum I've said this before where e ethereum is such a powerful Network because eth is such a powerful money like we have the money and now we can have anything I mean I put out a tweet the other day that the total value of of eth um that's staked is approaching $100 billion and that's bigger than every other layer

one chain like every other smart contract layer one chain uh by double uh I think the next closest one was maybe salana at like 50 billion or something and that's the entire market cap of salana but that's not their Stak Market that's the entire market cap so just the the what 27% 28% of e that he staked is worth hundred billion doar so it's already already bigger there so eth is just such a strong programable money already and then you throw AI into the mix uh and you throw all the demand that that brings with it yeah it's it's it's very bullish I think for eth and it makes total sense that that eth can be considered AI money because you can't program uh like Bitcoin for example like BTC they're doing some stuff there now trying to make some stuff happen but it's very different you can't program it

the same way that you can eth and tokens on on ethereum as well to interact with that in smart contracts so that that all makes perfect sense uh sense to me and I think that uh uh yeah people are going to just call it out as a buzzword but doesn't change the fact that it's real uh it's not just kind of marketing a marketing gimmick it's real it's been real for a long time people can go see these for themselves they or you can just go to the ultrasound. money website actually and you can actually see who the top gas guzzlers are and the top burners are it's all the the the um Unis swaps and and other kind of contracts like that and who do you think is interacting with those contracts it's the me Bots and and they're Bots and the machines they're not humans humans

aren't manually sitting there doing uh kind of M transactions that would be silly because humans are way slower than machines at that uh and then I I think that at this stage there's probably me Bots that have already Incorporated AI into their models in order to get better and and and become more profitable uh and that's just the that's just scratching the service like as you said like there's all these other use cases where humans can use it and say you know do such and such for me on chain and monitor the position for me and if I fall you know to this price and I'm going to get liquidated uh close out my position for me take money you know from wherever you can get it sort of thing so yeah it's kind of crazy when you think about it like that I think yeah I I like your point about

just thinking about Bots are already the ones competing like even going to other all layer ones like most all transactions are like me Bots right it's funny to me they don't realize that me is happening but like it it is like if you have block space that's worth money Bots are filling those in so I mean at the end of the day like it's just going to be creating more efficient markets right like like Arbitrage will get smaller and smaller MV will get smaller and smaller like that is just the end State and just be able to like say to an AI hey write me this bot or like write me and like it'll be become a race for what AI can write the better trading engine or mbot or rbot or whatever it is but yeah I mean it's just I mean these

are programmable systems right and like so it it makes sense that like the computers themselves as crazy as it sounds are going to be the ones that write the the best code right yeah yeah exactly exactly and I mean I think you mentioned earlier as well about uh about layer twos and how that kind of fits into the whole picture I mean I think with as I said like before because eth is such a strong money it exports all of this to layer 2 so the same thing is going to happen on the layer 2os and it already does with me right uh and and the same thing is going to happen the E is going to be used as by these AIS as money at at the layer twos but I guess while we're on the topic of ler twos as well there is something I think that you

wanted that you mentioned to me that you wanted to talk about earlier about how ethereum has kind of exploded over the last couple years with layer 2os essentially there's been like so many of them that have been created there's so many more that's set to come there are these kind of layer 2 Frameworks now where you can basically deploy a layer two like you would deploy any other smart contract uh on on ethereum so people are kind of asking you know what's this all going to look like right like uh there's fragmentation right now you know what's what's it all going to look like how are we going to kind of re defragment this and how re kind of like um uh reunify ethereum as an ecosystem and my answer to that is that it's just going to be a network Effect game like most of these l2s are not going to get

much of a network effect they're going to basically just be failed experiments which is fine like there's nothing wrong with that um and this and the liquidity is basically going to concentrate like as a as a power LW effect um but at the same time what I like about it is that it just gets us a lot of experimentation as well it gets us a lot of kind of Rapid experimentation on ethereum uh on both scalability and using different kind of virtual machines that we otherwise don't have at layer one because layer one is so limited given that it's very slow to change because you have to go through the entire layer one governance process and that takes forever I mean it took 2 and a half years to get AIP 1559 into the network which is the most popular EIP I think of all time so just to give people a kind

of context around that um but yeah Eric I mean I've given my thoughts on these heaps of times to my to the to my audience on the deadly gray here I'd love to get your thoughts on kind of the whole layer 2 landscape as it exists today and what you kind of see the future uh being like yeah I mean I'll I'll start on the tech side and then I'll kind of wrap up on like the investment side right so on the tech side ethereum as a community kind of took this approach to agnostic to layer twos right like we're going to kind of perfect layer one and like with blobs coming soon we're going to like give the the best possible I mean there's a few tweaks still make but we're going to get the best possible option to any Layer Two to create their

best Layer Two and that obviously I mean ethereum itself is worth I what what are we at like 300 billion Bitcoin 350 billion yeah 3 54 billion since we went up to 3K yeah exactly so like that I mean that's a lot of value captur that layer twos could try to come in and also take for themselves right so of course you're going to get this like proliferation of layer twos and I think we're seeing that like big bang effect of layer twos and I I mean I don't like name any names but like there there are some ones that seem ahead of others right and that doesn't really even matter to me I think like you said Network effects in liquidity are going to be the big ones so I kind of see like

two strategies happening amongst the layer two compan comptition right now and I appreciate both of them I see some going after like apps and saying hey can we create like unique apps to kind of like come in and hope we we capture users and liquidity and I see some going after for like the best tech and like the best like what stage are they in as far as decentralization goes and I I I appreciate both of those right and there was a very unique uh Twitter exchange I saw a couple days ago or maybe just yesterday where was like someone was talking about like blast layer 2 which is kind of like trying to it's one of the upand cominging layer 2os that trying to capture like apps and then one

of the arbitrum founders was in this like Twitter reply I was like hey we have the most tvl like why don't you think we're going to be like worth this I I'm paraphrasing this by far but like these are these two different approaches right like early tvl like doing it right and then like capturing app layer and I'm not saying like one of these is wrong um but at the end of the day I think we will settle on only a few layer twos like there's not going to be 50 of them um I don't really think the ux is as bad as people make it out to be for the for the main ones now I will say like I had a decent um Stark net air

drop because I like I was a Genesis validator and stuff and like that was a little painful to go like Bridge off and like they they made it easy because you were able to like claim for free and then Bridge off but just like finding Bridges the bridging is tough but I think the main ones um coinbase is kind of like accepted like bass Arbitron polygon um optimism and there's one one or two others on there right now I think they do stock net now as well oh do they add saret all right I think they added it yeah I should have known that before I did mine the other day I would have been a day before that but this like I think the ux will be solved by the way this is

a topic we talked about like five years ago but um exchange is being able to send your e to an exchange and then just off an exchange and I get so many Twitter replies from like the funniest is I get it from like salana manlets and it's like oh you're trusting exchange to like Bridge layer to I'm like dude you don't even you're just trusting like your state growth and your verification everything with no one you know about I don't think it's the worst to be able to send eth to an exchange and off to a layer two for your ux right maybe that's not the ultimate principle of decentralization but we will get there but for now if I want to just go to base I just send the coinbase and send the

base and it takes like five minutes and very little fees right um so I think we will long story short consolidate on just a I would say three to four layer twos if I had to guess long term um and those will all just be kind of solved through wallet and exchange ux because I think even the bridging can be hidden in wallet ux right you just say oh I'm going to send from whatever it is BAS arbitrum and your wall just say Okay and like Atomic transacts all that stuff right the the bridge transaction was two bucks and your final transaction was 10 cents and that just all happen at once and I think we're we're getting close to

this whole Atomic Wallet transaction thing in general and there's a few um eips actually I don't want to bust any news but I'm going to be champing a new EIP soon um around because one of my biggest pet feev at this point is approvals um when it comes to EAS like accounts on ethereum um but I think we can do a lot of ux improvements around wallets and smart contract wallets and stuff like that um to anybody that's been listening for a while I don't think that's a surprise to them but um a lot of wallets can just hide this stuff and I think we don't really care what layer twos were transacting on and 10 years

from now but for now yeah it's it's it's a little messy but I think we'll just settle on a few of them at the end of the day yeah yeah I I mean I definitely agree that the the ux is is not where it's going to be like in the in the future it's going to get a lot better it's going to get a lot easier it's a bit messy today um I I really don't understand people's point when they say oh you have to bridge from a centralized exchange like I'm sorry guys but where do you think you're bridging from for any chain like a mo the vast majority of people doesn't matter what chain you're using they're buying the funds on a centralized exchange and then they're withdrawing it to a chain like this has been going on from basically day one so

where your where's your money even coming from like you got to get money in and out anyway exactly exactly I mean yeah okay you can get paid in crypto and then have like a full circular onchain economy but we're not there right now right most people aren't there most people aren't getting paid in crypto on chain um hopefully they will in the future that's the whole point of what we're building but the vast majority of people get paid in Fiat into a bank account and then if they want to come into crypto they only have really one choice they have to go via Fiat into a centralized exchange or into some like uh I guess third party payment processor that uses a centralized Exchange in the back end or uses some kind of centralized intermediary in the back end to get you into crypto um or you can do

peer-to-peer transactions which have a number of issues with them the the big one being like safety as an issue right you're not going to carry around with thousands of dollars of cash and go pay like it's not it's not great right so there's that point to it as well but what I find funny about people complaining about these ux things is that it's just hilarious how much the narrative changed over the last couple years like if you actually go back to 2021 the main narrative back then was that the future was going to be multi-chain and there multi- chain in the sense of like we'd have multiple l1s and like they'd all succeed and we'd all be using multiple l1s and then the same questions were rising at the time around ux and liquidity fragmentation but no one cared no one was chilling that no

one was paying attention to that you're just like n it's going to be multi-chain like you can't just all be ethereum and now that the ethereum ecosystem is saying that by being like well yeah okay it's going to be multichain but it's going to be l2s instead of l1s suddenly everyone's like oh W what is this this is broken ux you know liquidity fragmentation everywhere we only need everything to happen on one layer you know so it's kind of just ridiculous how much the narrative has changed in the in just the last couple of years um but I think it's also a maturation too I like that it changed like that because it means that they you've got like two sets of people now you've got the ones who think that everyone should be done on on one layer which I obviously disagree with because I don't like the monolithic

approach to blockchains at all and then you've got like this modular approach which is the one that's actually winning right now and I believe to be winning longterm where yes there is fragmentation right now but there are multiple different ways to actually solve this and it more being worked on and eventually uh it'll all just be very abstracted away from from from the users uh and I think that it just the narrative doesn't match with the reality and the narratives are just being kind of shielded by people who don't want the ethereum roll upad road map to succeed because if it does succeed it kind of kills their favorite thing right uh which is true I think I don't think that's anything not to be worried about because yeah this is a very competitive environment right if you're a layer one you are competing like so if you're a

monolithic layer one I consider you to be competing with layer twos on ethereum I don't consider you to be competing with ethereum layer one I think the only competition to ethereum layer one is Bitcoin layer one and that competition isn't that great to begin with so um but yeah and I think that's that's why these people kind of Shield those narratives because they're like oh wow okay you know we need to make sure people understand that uh you know this is broken because of fragmental liquidity but it's like okay well what is multiple l1s guys like it's the same thing and it's less secure too because it's very hard to secure those bridges those bridges are not canonical Bridges they're they're actually just IOU Bridges and they get hacked all the time you know it's a completely different security profile so yeah that the narratives change over time but the

reality is the reality and I think that the reality is this stuff's going to get solved like I always bet on the etherum ecosystem to solve hard problems and I haven't you know we haven't been wrong yet we both make this bet and we've been right I think up until this point haven't been wrong yet I think what you just said is to me The Narrative of this bull market um is this layer this fine line bold line between eth and Bitcoin and the rest of crypto right I think every every's starting to realize like the investment thesis of the moneyness of Ethan Bitcoin um and I 1,000% agree with you there's no these are all layer twos right like even I don't want to

name names but like the top all layer ones right now um they're going to Pivot to become ethereum layer twos at some point there's just no doubt about it a bunch of them already a bunch of them already did but they were more I guess like the dead ones yeah exactly dead for dead for now the other ones that are alive way are going to become dead and they're going to become layer twos like but we're we're clearly seeing this important around important around we one of our next Topics by the way should be this like idea of small block blockchains and why that's important so maybe next one of the next couple episodes we could talk about that but um just the soundness of money that comes from that and the ETF verification and like this investment thesis from

tech companies that are now investing cash and they're picking Ethan Bitcoin together now um there's a clear line being drawn and I think that line and then you put layer twos underneath eth and that that is the true competition to these all layer ones and you know that's that's what's most important so you you look at this list of layer twos arbitrum optimism Stark net Bas ZK sync IM like all of these right like polygon zkm I mean whatever there's there's so many of them um they're not they're like an additive to ethereum right um they they are just people want to think about

them as like a detriment but they're not like the these are your alt layer ones but they're additive to ethereum they're using e to settle they're using e as currency they're using eth as money um and you know longterm the ux stuff is so minor I mean people complain about ux stuff forever in crypto I mean remember like Miss days and like just going back to early wallet days and that that stuff is so easy to figure out like the the tech and the the moneyness of the the base asset layer and all this stuff that that's the stuff that takes a long time to get right like the the wallet ux is I'm I mean I'm not worried about whatsoever yeah yeah no I'm in the same

boat I think wallets have gotten a lot better as well and they continue to get a lot better um but yeah I guess like uh cuz we're I don't know we're probably like almost an hour into the to the Pod right now there are a bunch of questions that the daily gay community had asked both of us now sorry to anyone's question that I'm going to miss because there's a lot of questions and we're probably not going to have time to get through all of them so I'm actually just on the the channel That the questions were asked in and I'm just going to go through the ones that I think are the most relevant for us to to answer for now at least got to do with discussions we were just having um a bunch of people actually asked this question and this is

related to uh what we're talking about in the um at the start of the Pod with like investing and taking profits and it's all about like unlocks of tokens of projects that have like VC backing and I think this is a discussion that has no clear answer to because it's like done on a case-by Case basis but I want to give some context to people what what this is actually about so essentially a lot of projects these days or most projects or pretty much like all of them they don't do icos anymore right they can't sell tokens to the public anymore so what they do is and and that's because of the regulations like the SEC has made it very clear that they think any kind of token sale at all is a Securities offering and you're going to get screwed by the SEC if you try to do

that right and that has just led to a lot of negative externalities for us people of course that that I can talk to as well but but really what's happened uh for the vast majority of projects now is that they take uh VC money right they take money from accredited investors so that it's not a Securities offering uh it's basically just like a sale to accredited investors which is covered by different laws and regulations I believe now because of this it means that these early participants both VCS and Angel Investors like like us we're both Angel Investors we both benefit from this get preferential kind of uh entry into these things so let's say there's a new project hot new project a layer two and they're going to raise money at $100 million valuation so they like go out there and they find the VCS they find

the lead investor they get the angels on board and they announce their raise like okay we raised $20 million or $10 million from such and such we have 100 million $100 million valuation now of course the majority of these they have what's called safes which is a simple agreement for future equity and and a saf te or AA which is a simple agreement for future tokens which basically means that you invest initially you get like equity and then you convert that to a token once they do a token generation event or a tge and then you get the token at whatever the fuid diluted value ends up being and whatever dilution happens between funding rounds and all that and so on and so forth now uh and and then what that means is that these tokens that you're getting are vested over some period of time so uh for

example I think the standard that I for for a lot of the projects these days is at least like two to four years of vesting some projects will do a thing where it's like onee Cliff which means that they'll lock the tokens for a year from when it actually goes public and then they'll start unlocking the tokens at the year mark both optimism and arbitrum have done this and then they'll like just to use them as an example they vest for 3 years after that so you get like linear vesting after that uh and now because of this it there's has become a big kind of issue where when the token first launches really the only circulating Supply is the air drop that they do which is usually up to what 10% of the total Supply and then there's a bit of tokens for market makers where

they basically loan these tokens out to market makers and say hey we need you to make the market for the token obviously so that people can be a so there's liquidity there so that's really what you see most of the time it's like 10 15% of the token circulating from from day one so then people will look at the vesting schedules and the unlock schedules and say okay well when are these tokens unlocking how how much is unlocking you know and and what's the actual impact on the price going to be because the market cap can be like I'll use arbitr as an example because they have a big unlock coming up in March but arbitr might have like a23 billion market cap or something like that but it's fully diluted valuation will be $20 billion and that's because it's counting the valuation when all the tokens are of

all the tokens put together right the total Supply now people will go okay well in March arbitrium is having a big unlock 25% of all uh of um all investor and team tokens are unlocking in March uh and I know this because I'm I'm part of this unlock and but it's also stipulated on their website on the on the docs website there so that I believe accounts for basically the entire market cap of arbitrum not the fully looted value but the entire market cap of arbitrum unlocking or at least a large chunk of that unlocking so then the question becomes okay what's the price going to do like is it going to go down because are these investors going to sell because they're up so much in their investment right from the last round are they going to hold you know what's the impact going to be and this is where it

becomes extremely difficult to know and is done on a case-by casee basis where essentially I think mostly it depends on market conditions right and if it's like a bare Market where the token is really depressed and the uh I guess Roi on the on the investment is relatively low you're going to find that most investors aren't going to sell they're going to be like I'm just going to hold because I know the bull Market's going to come back eventually and also they're very you know they're confident in the project like you the Project's doing well you know I'm bullish on the project so on and so forth I I'm going to hold here and there's also different types of investors VCS are very different to Angels because VCS take outside Capital Angel Investors usually don't so you have that kind of playing out there um

and then uh if it's a hot market right like it is right now and where arbitrum is worth a lot and the investors are up a lot you know up like 100x or whatever the question becomes like okay well are they going to sell because they're already up 100x that's where it actually becomes more difficult because you're like okay again it depends on the investor it depends on if they think there's even more upside to come like do they think arbit is going to $100 billion full eluded value like a 5x from here do they think that's going to happen because the bull Market's still in the early stages so it's and it's very very hard to know when they're going to sell here but because of this because there this overhang and I'm only using arbitr as an example every project has this these days but because there's

this overhang it's very hard for a lot of these things to actually be long good long-term Investments because what happens is they may go up in the bull market because no one cares because there's so much demand coming in no one cares about unlocks as much they just buy things and it's like oh bullish unlock this is like a meme that gets perpetuated but then when the market cools off these things things are definitely the first things to get get sold off especially if they've got these massive overhangs because everyone's just like oh I'm going to get dumped on if I don't sell this thing you know it's a bare Market there's just all these unlocks coming so that is is is a kind of huge thing there so that's how I think about like the unlocks and trying to go around them but it is very hard it

is a case-by case basis and it really I think does depend on what the market is doing at the time and and and kind of like what the unrealized gains are for these invest do and how heavy is it like is it heavy VC is it heavy Angel sort of thing it's it's so many different things and I know I've rambled for a bit here but I feel I feel like I need to give context to people who don't understand how all this works uh it it's it's not a pretty thing and I hate that the SEC has forced these companies to go the private route and not be able to do a public token sale because I do believe icos were [ __ ] awesome Yes okay 90 plus% of them or even more than that were dog [ __ ] and went to zero and whatever but

that's the same with anything like most businesses like 90 plus% of businesses fail but at least people had the opportunity to invest in these things right at least they had the opportunity to invest in these things without preferential treatment going to you know insiders like VCS and and and angels and and and stuff like that so that's my kind of rant there but Eric I'd love to get your thoughts on the whole kind of like vesting unlocks kind of thing what how it affects token prices and I guess the last thing I'll say as well is that eth has none of this because eth had the open Ico and it has no unlocks like the entire Supply is out there except for any new Supply that we meant which is known obviously ahead of time as well right yeah the beauty of e is it was all

out there anybody could have got in right and I think I'll go back to I I fully agree thinking back to the Ico days people only got upset and like why regulations happened because a lot of these companies were scams it wasn't because of how they raised the capital right and like I wish we could still do that because we have a fair platform that we could actually do this on and until the SEC changes or we get a new SEC head or Administration change whatever I mean that's going to take a long time to like kind of change those rules so we have what we have now right and I I I actually think I think people will be shocked by my take here I actually think people over obsessed about this so if we look at like a lot of the top 50 coins and

let's take like salana for example because I think they're like kind of one of the ultimate examples here they were like I I don't know the exact numbers but I think they were like 90 plus VC owned early on like that right we had the famous SPF quote of sell me all your salon at $3 I'll buy it all and [ __ ] off right like and like because that was the boy like this was a big narrative four years ago or three years ago whatever it was three four years ago um salana had like a huge unlock coming there were all these like graphs and Solana was like a dollar$ two dollars um there were all these graphs of like this this unlock wave coming and like I was even myself like oh this thing's going to zero this

huge unlock well I mean it's like over 100 bucks these days right and I'm not the biggest fan of salana but like that that VC unlock didn't matter because of the stage of the market we were in and like the like the narrative that they captured right so I think and you hit on this of course but like whether we're in a bull market whatever that narrative is um that matters more than VC dump unlocks coming right and like a lot of people investing in these and and I I know you were commenting on the ones that you have but like you're a very very small percentage right of like these larger firms that were invested like millions and millions

of dollars in these and these larger firms are going to just like dump this into zero for like a 5x 10x gain right they probably want to write it out um and I I just I think the market overemphasizes This and like we recently saw this of course with the Stark token right um like a large percent of that was owned by the team or wasn't unlocked and they had a token generation event that they like kicked off two years ago even though the token just launched um and so that unlocks coming up but I just it very depend very much depends like if you're like oh we have a huge unlock coming and by the way we're in a huge bare market and everything's down 90%

well yeah then your token might go to zero but if you're like a layer two when East pumping and everyone's like oh yeah layer twos is the [ __ ] and things are going up and there's a small amount of your token out there like there's only 5% circulating at this moment well it might set a fire right so it's something to definitely be uh like wey about as an investor but I I wouldn't say I mean I I should have said like 5% of my portfolio maybe for like other Investments and like layer chos and stuff I mean I'm literally like all eth or like personal stuff real estate whatever but as far as crypto goes Almost 100% eth but I do have a little dabble in like layer to and some other

alts but I I really don't think about it to be honest I I just I mean I I'm with you I I wish we could live in this alternate universe where we had this like Fair um anybody hoop in Ico kind of thing um but I think in general if we're in a bull market and there's larger investors involved they're not going to just like totally [ __ ] on you and dump on you right like maybe some of they are like really small investors who maybe want to get a 5x out of it 10x out of it and just need the money at the time maybe they will but these markets are huge right I mean I was just for fun I mean I'm talking about eth now which is

obviously a much larger asset but I just for fun last night I was like what would it take me to buy eth up to 3,000 we were like 20 2965 and I was on matcha just like messing around for fun it takes like a100 million on E to move it up like $50 and that that's just on a deck so of course if you like properly spread $100 million over all exchanges you wouldn't even move it up like a couple bucks but I mean with the market makers you mentioned and the money involved in a bull market like buying up layer twos and some of these unlocks I I don't really I I just don't worry about it that's kind of my like thought at the a day and and just to be clear I'm I'm

in a I think two a layer two early Investments I IMX and um ZK sync were like my personal Investments so um ZK SN isn't even they don't even have a token right now and IMX I mean is doing pretty well so it's not like I'm like trying to dump on everybody that I'm talking to like and those are very minor Investments when it comes to my portfolio so um yeah it's just not something I like think people should like obsess about as much as they are yeah yeah and I think I wanted to go back to your kind of saloner example that that you brought up cuz I think that's like the perfect example of this playing out over multiple Cycles because you're right like back in I think it was like the end of 2020 December 2020 I

think it was that massive unlock you were talking about and I remember this being fed to death right like yeah so was like three bucks and the SPF quote and all that right but then after that soul went to I think $260 or something in 2021 right so it went up massively now of course a lot of that was SPF bidding it up on his own um with using customer funds but there were real buyers there too right there wasn't just SPF there were people buying it for so for whatever reason so like this unlock had zero meaning because of the fact that it was a bull market but then then the unlock actually did have meaning because we saw what happened to salana in the bare Market it went down to like $7 or something right it had a brutal crash so that's what I was saying before

I'm like in a bull market these things tend to not matter too much because you have so much demand coming in that it's offsetting any of the kind of even if there is selling from these players it's offsetting that uh and then it plays out later because these as I said these things are the first things that start to sell off once the market cools down uh one they're riskier than other assets as well like Ethan BTC they're way riskier and and the narratives like their narratives fall apart when the price isn't going up and yeah there's those that there's that overhang that people start selling and whoever was holding it as inventory and things like that right because what ends up happening is you pass it to weak hands essentially right and these weak hands will just like dump it straight away um so so there's that that plays out but

then yeah as you said like so came back from that they're at like $100 now they went to seven then back up to 100 but that played out over over a long cycle that was like a kind of a fouryear thing there or whatever it was three four year thing there it's like a whole cycle so what could happen is that these other tokens that have unlocks could go up such and such percent from here even though they're worth a lot already then they crash really spectacularly in the bare Market but then the really successful ones will will come back later right and go up go up uh go up later but then the question becomes like are they going to go up against eth or is it just going to be against US Dollars like and and and it comes infinitely harder from there like if you

try to trying to play that game and trying to do everything uh from that perspective but yeah I agree with you generally that the yeah people will just over index on these things especially in Bull markets like it just it it actually paralyzes you from buying them and then you know you're just like stuck there being like [ __ ] I missed the opportunity for buying it and and and kind of like playing this this tradeoff uh but it it again it does depend on the projects too like if they bigger projects like layer 2s they're probably going to get more demand than something like an app that no one's really heard of before cuz it's all about attention as well when it comes to investing but yeah I think in a bull market it doesn't matter that much and I mean as I said before I'm I'm a a

recipient and so are you in some of these things like we we stand to gain from these things and I'm not saying to go like buy my bags or whatever or anything like that but I'm just trying to like give my honest kind of take that I think in a bull market what you think matters is not going to matter because of the fact that there's just so much noise there so much demand coming so much new money coming in but then it does play out later on so I I I honestly can't recommend to anyone that that they should hold any of these things except eth for the long term like I can't I I I it just I I don't think any of these things are good Investments long term but shortterm sure for one cycle like one bull bull market if you buy and sell

at the right time you can probably make some money but longterm yeah no I don't I don't think so especially not against e either yeah I agree I mean I think like you know there's so many well it matters what you invested in how well that app does in that founding team right like that that's the number one like what did you actually invest in and I think like IMX is a good example right that thing ran up to like eight bucks dumped to like 30 cents back to three bucks like that's a huge volatile swing and everyone was worried about those unlocks right um and it's bounced back after like but was that like bare Market or was it unlocks and I think one thing to realize is this cycle is to me I'm mainly staying in eth and not getting in

the layer 2 game because I think the layer 2 game is very diluted um we're going to have 30 40 layer twos competing for Capital and like they're competing for that same kind of like non-e Capital that's trying to invest to them um to me that's why my thesis is like hyperb eth and Bitcoin to extent of course too because the ETF and like that line I'm talking about between these assets but I mean I think Layer Two is going to do fine but I think that that layer two like cool that's happening of all these you know 30 40 layer twos out there um I'm by the way I'm including all layer ones in there too um they're all

competing for the same capital I mean it's just going to get messy definitely yeah yeah definitely all right uh we move on to the next question but thanks to m 80. e for that one uh and a few I think a couple other people also kind of wanted to know about that um but the next one I wanted to talk about was one from Lucid eyes and I think this is one that you'll be able to answer a lot better than me so he asks what what's what has been some of your methods on maintaining your mental health during bare and bull periods I know Eric took 3 months off in general how do you guys approach this now as I said you're better at answering this than me because I've traditionally been not great at managing this whereas you just somehow are able to disconnect and take those

breaks when you need them so I yeah I'd love to hear it from you Eric like what do you do to keep sane in in crypto yeah I mean for I think this is the best question I've ever got to be honest with you this is one thing I I assess over these days and I I will say early in crypto I was very mentally unhealthy like I I think the first five or six years I was in it I mean so I remember I'll walk back a little bit I don't want to tell too long a story here but like when I was trading Bitcoin back in the day I remember going to bed and I had like Leverage trades open I have my laptop open next to me and I would fall asleep and I had dreams of the Bitcoin graph that's how bad it was right and

like I lost that money and like I moved on life met my wife invested in eth and like yeah I trade a little eth but like I kind of left that behind me right so that that was like very unhealthy like that level Obsession of like dreaming about grafts um and like early eat days of course were kind of stressful as well but I think the one thing I've realized at this point is like it doesn't have to be all-encompassing like if you if you kind of Step back and read like some of these books I've talked about in the past or we were just recently talking about like Devil the high most um you realize that these markets are just repeating themselves over human history

and like this is actually nothing that new like we love the asset itself but like these boom and bus Cycles they're they're they're not going anywhere and if you you picture them as like fouryear cyclos you can like take breaks especially in the Bear right and that's the thing I've taught myself like in in Twitter is all-encompassing and you don't need to be there like 24/7 so the the one thing that's helped me the most is like I mean golfing to me is my number one thing and cooking I've picked up cooking so like if anybody was advice like my number one thing over the last four years that I've always golfed my whole life but cooking has been my number one hobby to pick up I just I put on music I put my computer away I put

Twitter away and I just like cook for multiple hours a day I like I have a young daughter a wife I cook breakfast I cook lunch I cook dinner and that's like my thing right and I kind of step away and I think every like bare Market especially um taking like six to eight month hiatuses and I do that like early on I was like so addicted I'm like oh man what no one's going to like follow me when I get back but you know what I did it and I came back and everyone was still there and I just you know I I put all my devices away and I just kind of like relax and read and watched movies and it was nice so I I think just realizing that like everyone's going to be here at the end of the day like

Anthony you're still here as all my friends are still here right and like realizing East not going anywhere um and picking up a hobby is good because I I have been truly like addicted and obsessed and like in a not not in like a bad place but not in like a great place when it comes to like bare markets and just being like fighting with people on Twitter and stuff so um I I do think this is something that hits home with me honestly and maybe everyone sees my gray my gray hair my adding to this at a point but um yeah I guess I'll wrap it up by just saying pick up a hobby um cooking and golf or mine and and don't be afraid just to

walk away and just like you don't even need to like go on vacation or anything just like I delete Twitter I delete Discord every like couple weeks and just like take a couple day break and I just reinstall them and you know what all my all my crypto Buddies the graphs are still there he's still there all my friends are still there so yeah I think that's something that I've always struggled with is that disconnect because you say you know to people I pick up a hobby but it's more about I guess like getting the hobby that's away from like crypto and it's away from a computer because I have plenty of hobbies but like most of them are in this room like my figurines is in this room like if I'm building my fig it's near my computer so I'm still looking at my computer

right yeah exactly exactly and then if I'm like playing a game it's on my computer if I'm watching a movie I usually do it on my TV which is like in this room over over there right if I'm watching a so it's it's all still in the same kind of like room and that's what I've always struggled with is like disconnecting from that and doing something different and I've been trying to do more of that lately I mean me and some of my um my friends real life friends actually recently had a um a night where we all just kind of went to my friend's house no computers I mean we had our phones of course but no computers no screens uh and they there was three three of them and me so they were painting the little Warhammer kind of um Soldier things I don't know if

people know about the Warhammer hobby like you paint them and I was making a gunam uh like this thing that comes flat plastic plaque and you kind of like um snap snip them off and then you build the Gundam kind of character so I was doing that and it was the first time i' done that and the first time I think um some of my friends had paintting there but the thing is is that it was completely different to what we usually do like sometimes we'll play like Mario Kart or something like that but that's still in front of a screen right um or they're in you know they're into crypto as well so we'll talk about crypto but we really just sat there and a lot of it was like pretty much silent where we were just kind of working on our own thing just like enjoying each other's

company and it was very very different and it was very relaxing compared to the other stuff so I think that those sorts of things are critically important for people to do is like just disconnect as you say you don't have to go like take long ass breaks you don't have to go on like holidays or whatever but even doing things like getting away from the screen and going to going on a walk going like an hour long walk or something like that and not listening to podcasts like crypto podcasts and stuff you know uh I mean I'm fighting the podcast right now cuz people probably people probably on their walk listening to this right now but like if you want to actually disconnect you have to disconnect it's not you know oh I'm not doing crypto stuff today but I'm still around the same environment that I do crypto stuff

in no you have to actually change your environment and that's where you get the proper break from that's what I've struggled with but I'm doing more lately but it yeah it seems like Eric that's what you've been able to do really well and it's obviously helped you a lot I mean you got the Grays but man so of can't see him on the stream but on my beard I've got the grace too and I'm I'm not you know I'm not that much younger so uh it comes it comes for us all unfortunately you still got your hair I don't have any hair on my head so lucky yeah exactly it comes to the age yeah and like I think uh the important thing to like think about is ethereum is and I've I David Hoffman interviewed me like two years ago about like kind of just

life and crypto and stuff and one thing we talked about was how much etherum is all-encompassing like it's a lot of our careers it's our friends it's our investments it's our everything right and like that becomes mentally wearing after a point like maybe if you're only in a couple years like it doesn't matter but after like five six seven eight nine 10 years longer like your your entire life is everything your friends family investment blah blah blah is all Encompass in ethereum like that that doesn't become mentally wearing and it truly is important like try to step away from it every once in a while right so I I really like this question and I think

it's an important topic that not many people in the crypto Community talk about at all um so yeah I appreciate it yeah yeah and and I think like it depends on age as well I feel like if you're younger like maybe in your early mid 20s you recover faster from like being addicted to something or at least you can deal with it better but definitely as I kind of entered my 30s like I mean I started in my early 20s and then the bulk of what I did was between 25 and 30 I would say the bulk of my crypto uh kind of but then as I entered my 30s I mean I'm 32 this year like I felt like physically drained mentally drained and I'm like you know I mean I'm not old but like I've done this for so long that I feel what much

mentally older than what I am because I've just obsessed about it so much because tends to like age you mentally and I think that you went through that as well like that's why I think you needed to take that long break is that you'd been just as obsessed as I am and you you know you had you had um your daughter and everything as well so you wanted to obviously spend more time uh with her and and your family which makes total sense maybe I'll end up doing that one day but um I think yeah taking breaks important but also yeah the most important thing from what I've done for myself is yeah disconnecting and changing your environment not just like saying oh I'm not doing crypto stuff but I'm still on my computer doing other things yeah that's not that your brain is not disconnecting in that in that

kind of environment there all right I think maybe we got time for one more Eric if you got time for one more question yep yep yeah sweet one more and then uh for any of the questions that we missed guys I we'll answer them next kind of drivethru that we do so we'll just keep answering questions every drive-through from now on that people have but just for the sake of time I'll just um have this last one here so this one is from rocket and it's talking generally about the risks associated with reaking and uh the risk associated with leverage reaking so essentially people do this with I mean Leverage is like something every like not everyone does but like a lot of people do within crypto they do it in various different ways but uh first of all we had like e stake looping with leverage where

essentially if you wanted to kind of like get more exposure to e staking you would Loop your Stak so you'd basically stake with Lio get St and then put that St into a money market borrow against it and then go you know restake Loop and you could do this like three or four times I think um you know quote unquote safely uh I I don't consider any leverage to be safe but like people like oh you can do it three or four times and it's safe yeah okay but like that's what people T tend to do and now there's this obviously with reaking you can do like restake looping so you can do the same thing just with a reaking token instead and people obviously want to do this because you can Farm like points and points can potentially become air drops and you can earn more money so on and so

forth um I do want to start off my answer to to to to to my thoughts on this by saying that generally I've always avoided leverage I think Leverage is like the killer for most people doesn't matter if you're leveraging you know eth or leveraging Stables or or you know doing leverage trading or leverage Rak or staking any form of Leverage is incredibly risky I think uh for for you as a personally as a as an investor or as a Trader whatever it is you have a very big risk associated with that um but outside of that uh rocket was kind of more alluding to I guess like the risks to the ethereum protocol and the risks to each of these products like for example uh they mentioned in 2022 we had the St e dpeg because Terror blew up and people was the market was crashing and

everyone was spewing their St and there wasn't withdrawals on the beacon chain so you couldn't actually do that Arbitrage so I believe stf ended up trading at 0.9 I think on on secondary markets which means that you could buy 0.9 St and trade it for 1 e um or sorry withdraw 1 E from the beacon chain if you were able to withdraw at the time which you weren't or you could wait for the price to go back up and obviously up and make a profit there so yeah the concern is that like if we have so much looping going on and so much reaking looping going on um does it negatively affect ethereum as a network does it negatively negatively impact the beacon chain it it it can and it can't I think the worst that would probably happen is that there'll be Mass withdrawals

from the beacon chain right from people arbitraging people wanting to get out of their position without taking like a massive haircut like for example if you holding an LST or an LRT and you're telling it into the secondary Market but the secondary Market is like 10 15% off of its fair value you're probably thinking to yourself well that's not worth it for me I'm not going to do that I'm going to just take it from the beacon chain but then if you do that the problem becomes that you get stuck in an exit que and let's just say the exit que is like two weeks because everyone's trying to exit by the time you exit the Fiat value so the USD value of the eth is down a lot so if you wanted to sell that eth to cover your positions you couldn't do that so what ends up

happening is that you have like this I wouldn't call it a death spiral but you have like this spiral of like liquidations that can happen because everyone's trying to get out and they're [ __ ] themselves because like oh my god I've got so much debt I need to pay this down right I'm going to get liquidated so on and so forth so I think that those are the risks that I really see associated with that but when it comes to the risk to ethereum as a network and the bigon chain itself I don't think there's much risks there because we have the cues you can't withdraw the majority of the e at once you have to go through the cube right so I think that the beacon chain and ethereum would be fine eth as an asset would probably take a hit from this

definitely like from all the fear and everything this honestly if this is going to happen it's going to happen during a macro uh crypto sell off basically when everything's crashing and there's just leverage blowing up everywhere but yeah eth would be negatively impacted the lrts and lsts definitely will and those are the main risks Associated there but in terms of its effect on ethereum and the beacon chain I think that uh it would be fine but layer as well remains to be seen what how how they would handle this because obviously they have a lot more exposure to this than than other protocols would but we're going to have to see how that plays out there but yeah I generally think that the ethereum network from a security standpoint would be completely fine in this in this situation yeah fully agree and I think it's important

to like realize reaking itself is not a formable leverage right so like reaking so like think about just eaking in general right like we're we're securing the the base eum network reaking is taking that concept and securing other protocols right and you you can get incentivized to do that now that that does not mean you're like leveraging your ease so I I fully agree with you and I think this is one of the things we're probably going to run into as a community we should probably start like thinking about this narrative wise and like just education wise because I think we're going to see a big boom in reaking and I think people are going to start buding it fast and

they're going to be like oh e E3 staking is leverag over and over it's not inherently right um now if like D5 protocols come around you can like take your E3 staking token and then like Leverage that up blah blah blah and like trade this and then like if that starts getting a little complicated sure but like inherently like Igan layer and these others the pure E3 staking is not a form of Leverage right and like I agree with you stay away from Leverage in general I'm not scared about pure reaking um just kind of like using this trust layer for other applications is pretty genius and like I can layers getting in like data Avail data availability layers and stuff as well um

but I'm not personally worried on the surface about reaking being like some kind of like Leverage eventual unwinding event um if if like weird derivatives come out or like weird defi things come out for this and like like you're staking like I haven't even thought this far but if you're like staking or you're like trading or pulling Stak eth versus like um egin like Stak eth ver like leveraging those like then that's going to get like kind of weird but like natively no I'm not it's just not leverage as far as I'm concerned yeah yeah exactly and yeah I mean I I do think we're going to see as

you said like a big boom in basal it's going to be a mass I mean there already has been like what is IG L's tvl now like $10 billion or something like that it's massive right but it's true like people have been talking about this recently it's true that usually these things will boom and bust like especially when it's something new like I think IG L is going to get really really big and just reaking generally is going to get really really big and then I I I wouldn't say that IG layer itself is going to like crash or B or kind of like have a bug or anything like that but I think when it comes to all this leverage that gets built up not from the reaking but from all the extra products built on top as you were just talking about that's what's going to lead to a

lot of the negatives because what ends up happening is what I described earlier where you have all of this kind of like oh [ __ ] moment which is what we saw we actually saw this in that I I mentioned earlier how eth went from 4,400 to, 1700 in a week in 2022 we saw this when Tera Unwound when the when Tera collapsed the entire Market was in oh [ __ ] mode and basically like I need to get out now and then eth went down only for 11 weeks straight there was 11 red weekly candles on the chart if you go and look at that in 2022 it was crazy I remember talking to you about this being like dude what the hell like this is insane but that's what happens during these unwinding events right because the lower the price goes the more people get liquidated the

more more eth gets sold the more people [ __ ] themselves because like oh my God like this is just going to go keep going down the more people sell you know it just it does get into this spiral not a death spiral so to speak but it gets into this spiral that will stop eventually but you don't know where it's going to stop like no one I know actually maybe there was like maybe one person I know was saying that eth would go below $1,000 like on off that right everyone else was like oh yeah we probably like worst case scenario will'll bottom at like the old alltime high of 1420 that was the worst worst case scenario but then of course we went to 880 which was a lot further down than 1420 and no one thought that I think I know I think there's one person I know

of that actually thought that that was going to happen so the same thing would happen this time where you know let's say we go up to 20K and everyone's like oh my God 20 okay this is awesome like and then at that point the more experienced investors will be like okay well we're at 20K now like that's that's a huge kind of run up we're probably going to sell off but then I reckon what's going to happen is all this stuff's going to blow up like this leverage that's built up on top of reaking not reaking itself but this leverage that's built up and then we may end up going down further than people think we do maybe people will say oh no $5,000 is going to be the bottom because it was the old alltime high and then we go to like 3500 or 4K or something right

so I can see that playing out again and I can see that happening very very quickly again as well so these things typically take a while to build up but then to unwind it happens within like maybe 3 months or something not even right it will unwind very very quickly but again reaking as you said is not leverage on its own it's it can be leverag just like any other kind of financial primitive uh but yeah when it does inevitably blow up and when it when people do end up getting liquidated from this that's on them for taking that risk but you also need to understand that this could negatively impact you as well because if you're holding these lsts or LRT and you want to get out during this volatile period you're either going to have to take a haircut on secondary markets or you're going to have to get

stuck in that exit queue so that's something to keep in mind that's actually one risk if if we're talking about this that's one risk people don't really mention too much when it comes to staking as a solo Staker or as a liquid reaker as a solo Staker you still would have to go through the exit queue but you're not exposed to LST risk at all right yes you don't get the benefits of it but you're not exposed to this risk so as a Soler you would sit there comfy because you'd be like oh well you know e is going down in USD but like hey hey block rewards from all the you know the gas Fe spiking probably in this environment and hey I'm still earning eth and my e is still e like my e is still e for me it's not like you know

one st e is 0.9 e or whatever it is right so when you kind of look at it like like that I think that that's an underappreciated aspect of solo staking too and and and home staking generally and just staking outside of lsts but yeah I definitely think we're going to see something like that maybe in I don't know if if we have a bull market into 2025 and then maybe in late 2025 early 2026 we see this kind of thing just like we saw last time timelines elude me here I mean I can't put a timeline on it but I think if anything we can guarantee is that leverage always wrecks crypto markets like that's that the leverage that gets built up during the ball Market I mean it destroyed everyone in 2022 right like that's actually what destroyed everyone The Leverage that they took so our rule of thumb generally

I think is to people that if you need to take leverage understand what you're doing and understand that you can blow yourself up otherwise still clear 100% greed and fear that defines every single cycle that's ever existed in markets so it's same thing right greed's leverage and everyone gets all amped up on it but the same thing happens on the fear side right people get leveraged up short and you know us us normies just sitting on like plain e we we survive and that survive in advance is all that matters yep exactly I mean I've never really taken leverage I think I borrowed against my eth Once Upon a Time like 3 years ago but it wasn't to buy more eth uh it was actually to do an investment I remember

doing that but I paid that down very very quickly cuz I was scared even though my liquidation price was really low I was like I hate this like I'm just like anxious right leverages made me anxious so yeah definitely agree with that but yeah I think on that note that's probably going to be it for for this week's episode um so yeah Eric unless you've got anything to add or wrap us up here no no that's good I I enjoyed the conversation I like the questions you got for your Discord and stuff so good times yeah yeah awesome yeah well yeah once again thanks to everyone who posted questions sorry if we didn't get to yours this week but we will hopefully on the next episode and yeah you can keep asking questions if you want guys in the daily way Discord channel in the AMA series Channel there

and I'll just keep like taking note of them and answering the ones that I think are most relevant for the episodes uh that we kind of do uh uh hopefully you know uh not not rugging you guys for another four months again on on that one but yeah that's going to be it for for this episode so thank everyone for listening and watching be sure to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet give the video a thumbs up subscribe to newsletter join the discod channel uh and we'll catch you do not rather than later thanks everyone