D/ACC and the Defensive Tech Movement

Transcript

[Music] um so I'm blad uh thanks for the intros um so we're going to talk about DC again which you heard a little bit about if you're here for the last session um and we're going to talk about it through the context of some of the stuff that were involved in the zalo community through Switzerland and Beyond um and then also sort of applying those principles in the development of like large language models with than AI um and other aspects like biod defense and cyber so uh before we get to our nice panel discussion here I want to step back and compare and contrast the diac movement defensive

acceleration versus effective accelerationism so let's start with eak how many people here have heard of eak okay so we're familiar here so eak is sort of like the extreme version of tech acceleration it's the very like capitalist profit driven version of it uh Mark andri of andri horvitz up here is one of the big proponents of it I think we're currently in the US in an administrative environment that's very supportive of this approach which is just basically remove all regulatory barriers uh you know just unencumbered tech tech progress Let It Be Market driven winter take all sort of environment um and then by doing this you sort of like achieve a utopian version of humanity that's sort

of the the vision there whether or not you agree with that is open to interpret ation we've seen things like open AI they prefer like close Source models and just you know pushing their advantages through just like um standard like capitalist competition okay diac which we covered a little bit or is and una covered a little bit in the last session that's something that metallic published an article about some of the key principles there are for technological advancement to focus on safety and making the world better which I he doesn't necessarily Define those like how you meure those things but at least it provides us with a framework um again a heavy emphasis on decentralization which is obviously very core to what we

do here with ethereum and and blockchain in general um and then just consider the ethical considerations of what we're doing these like improve societal well-being is there a focus on safety um so let me let's go through some of the key points of DC so this demand for new approaches that's sort of the high level thing a world leading towards defense so everything we do we we take sort of a defensive perspective of like oh what are the worst case scenarios that could happen as we develop these Technologies uh and that is both what he calls macro so infrastructure so things like uh internet infrastructure such as starlink as a as a defensive uh technology interesting thing about starlink using that is that

it's is centralized so that gets more into like a deepen conversation uh potentially biomedical again uh thing you know preventing things like Airborne pandemics you know vitalics very much concerned about what happened with Co and the future of sort of like uh biological warfare um and then we get into more like cryptography blockchain Network defense um information defense so one thing that's called out is like Twitter's Community notes but basically you know content moderation I think is super important also using decentralized social platforms um to combat some of the centralized um platforms out there today we've seen with Elon buying Twitter that he's B basically made it his sort of platform and crafting it in his vision

you know he'll argue that it's done under the guise of like oh I'm releasing Free Speech but it's really free speech under elon's sort of rule so creating more decentralized uh neutral platforms for social engagement is important as well cool that's sort of the setup let's get into uh our panel discussion so um I'm going to leave this is mircat which maram will talk about shortly uh this is a great platform for just like engaging with us so as as we have our conversation you're welcome to um scan that QR code submit questions those questions go up up here you guys can up vote questions you like and we can just pick them off here um for the last part of the session cool all right so let's

get into some conversations here so I want to start with some zalu related Tech stuff and I'm going to start with Veronica so Veronica first um you know love for you to do an intro on on your involvement with zalu and um sort of the tech related things that you're involved in and then what I want to start with is maybe go into some of the specific aspects of zuzu's Open Source Tech movement and maybe distinguish how it differs from other sort of decentralized initiatives sure hello everyone I'm Veronica um and I brought these up so I could do the bit I wear two hats currently in the zlu movement with I'm supporting operations for zuin which you heard about and I'm leading operations for z. City I've also been in engaged

participant um our community movement member since the original experiment in Montenegro in 2023 um so the question specifically to what is zuu software movement what are we trying to do how does it differentiate I think a key differentiation is so compared to maybe regular decentralized projects that are working on a single protocol we can see zuu software movement um as broadly different projects and teams working together to build tools tools build tools not empires in vitalic words and make ethereum Cipher Punk again we have that even on stickers that I'm out of because everyone wanted them I think that does encompass a bit of this Athos of all right we have a lot of different

teams ethereum Community Fund ECF of course is one team that's working on Zulu software and then a variety of different projects coming together to solve problems that communities have like Zulu and I say use communities in a very broad sense because you we're trying to solve Maybe for people that want to create something generational they want to maybe they call it a network State maybe not it's a startup Society it's a new city or just a community that wants to own their own data for the tools that they're using so what that looks like then practically is all right if you are in if you're self-organizing as a community you're using a scheduling service and now you're beholden to that scheduling

service to one not censor or block you from organizing those events and to keep your data for forever if in 20 30 50 years you want to be able to prove that you were contributing so on our level I'm seeing these questions come up um I was wondering what the reactions are I guess it's from this um the so we're together building tools to solve real world use cases by communities that maybe have permanent or temporary hubs popup city is one that's how the Zulu movement began was with a temporary pop-up City we're seeing increasingly permanent Ambitions towards permanence so we call maybe permanent zuu nodes or permanent crypto hubs and then asking

what are the problems or what are the specific use cases that we need maybe we need decentralized messaging all right so status can solve that in theory um Zulu do city is also building as QJ mentioned earlier a you could think of it like a Dap store or a community operating system and at a baseline we want to stay neutral which I imagine will get into when we talk about what are the values we want to be as neutral as possible provide the option for say privacy um and user own data for the users there's a lot to go into along those sides for sure for sure I want to give everybody a chance to maybe tackle this a little bit so one of the interesting things about the platform we're using here to submit your questions mircat is that is a project that came out of uh zuu related pop-up

Village um it was used at Edge City in changai so that's something that Miriam specifically helped develop so Miriam I'd love to hear just just about you and your involvement with this and um how you think like mircat you know helped in uh in the Zulu Community um just Foster some of the things that um Veronica talked about um yeah I think what sets uh um the movement of suzu apart for me is one the organic virality I think it started with one event and then a year later it was already 50 and I don't know how many or I don't know at least it scaled very quickly uh that's why and then so a lot of people are interested in looking to contribute in such a

movement into these values and then the second thing is uh also the topic um of it like a lot of it is like we've seen privacy biod defense just uh in the DC Manifesto topics that aren't necessarily present at every other Tech conference and haven't originally been like in the blockchain movement per se and then the third part is uh yeah the open source move and so um I know Veronica is also aggregating all the different tools that are um being used across the different um popup cities so whether it's susulu or Edge City and Mirad was uh one of them maybe have some of you been to

Defcon maybe okay so if you have engaged with a talk and checked in with your zpass ticket then you might have used mirat there so this is a minimal version of it without the supas login and it started as a dip which is a Defcon Improvement proposal so working with the ethereum foundation and also um with a company called uh s x Park which is developing um software tools for to make S knowledge proofs more accessible to uh developers um that are not maybe specialized in creating custom circuits and yeah so um it was very great for us to be able to right away dive into to ecosystems um where people

are willing to try out new tools contribute with their data and their opinions and I think because Zulu has such a uh privacy Focus um it creates a safe environment for people to actively engage and um that's very critical to try out new tools and so on so um it's a fully open source uh of course so everyone can use it and um yeah it's been it's it's very rewarding too as a project developer to develop something and right away get it into the hands of people um who share the same value so that's great um so I want to turn it over to Alexis Alexis your coo at at Nim

and you guys are developing ZK Tech that's broadly applicable to a number of fields so tell us like what's what's your sort of experience with the zual ecosystem and where do you see some of the stuff that you're working on fitting into what we're doing yeah thank you so um so I'm a bit uh yeah on the on the edge of zop ecosystem because I'm in Switzerland uh I'm in the crypto ecosystem and the Bitcoin ecosystem for a long time and um um and I'm also like a an activist in Switzerland for privacy and for digital rights so I think all these comes a bit to Al together um and uh and so so yeah so what I what I see is is this link

between uh uh an existing effort for uh for many years from cyer Punk movements and which are kind of uh Reviving right now so through the lunar lunar Punk uh movement um uh and uh they um they try to achieve uh um privacy technology uh in a in a very uh radical way um and uh and I think what is happening right now is to make the link between uh not just uh developing technology but to have a vision of society uh that is actually an alternative to uh dystopian uh centralized and transparent systems that

we are building right that the world is building around us and and and the and we'll talk a bit about later but at the end it will be a game of incentives and I think with the uh the approach that we have from the the the the the blockchain world that is coming into this game is that we can Design Systems that actually create a positive incentive and we can have decentralized systems that have a better incentive than centralized system and for people um is it in terms of uh wealth or in uh ability to communicate or whatever they will they will be better off with the decentralized and private system right so let's let's pivot a little bit into the AI space because we were talking incentiv so right now there's there's a couple of

interesting things happening in AI you have sort of your monolithic llm companies your open AIS your uh anthropics of the world sort of pushing forward we now have this interesting thing that happened with deep seek very aggressively lowering the cost that it takes to uh run to train and deploy these models which has sort of been an interesting curveball maybe a little bit unrelated to some of the decentralized stuff but what's interesting about that team is they actually open source the model so that was probably something that maybe maybe was unexpected but a positive development um but let's talk more about like the risks of what's been happening in like the the corporate uh centralized

LM space um to you guys like what are some of the biggest risks with the monolithic centralized LMS um and what are your thoughts on how some of the maybe stuff that's going on in decentralized AI how couldn't that be mitigated maybe let's differen let's also maybe think about decentralized AI as a crypto Thing versus decentralized AI as an open source thing um you know whoever would like to maybe start yeah well okay I I'll I'll I'll jump in sure um so the two two risk I see is first um when you have uh centralized AI systems uh build on on scraping data around the world um they uh first they always tend to uh create

biases um that are depending on the who is controlling who's building this centralized Ai and and deep seek is a very good example try something about Taiwan and the message gets censored right right um so and and and um so you will have these uh these bi these these biases so that's one and the second thing it's also like a very natural thing if you have a bunch of people using a centralized system the value tends to be um acquired by by the top so you think you have uh you have a um you are gaining something with the usage of it but the cost of you don't see the cost it actually uh is for you to participate in this your cost is uh your data which is being

sucked into this system uh and uh and is going to be uh um yeah taken for free almost and and uh um compacted into these AI models and then reused and sold back to you so basically in reality in in terms of like uh uh economical balance at the end you you might as an individual you might be losing um so um so these are the two two uh the two risks and so what um privacy Tech can bring to that is actually uh change that balance so the the first thing you can do is you uh by hiding yourself hiding your interaction and your whole Community interaction then the all the

datas you are generating are not available for scrapers that will come and and try to uh to to build uh models to to learn from your data that is not AA able but it has to be done in a in a in a in a way which is uh uh more advanced than traditional privacy Tech this is what we're doing an N we're creating noise so that the pattern recognition systems that our AI cannot figure out what are the patterns of discussions that the people have um and uh and what will'll H will will it will allow is that the people who live in a in a private environment then can they develop their own models uh and because uh I think using AI llms is is something which is important

we we want to to use these tools in a in a benefic beneficial way but we can build them in a consensual way it means that we know exactly what data goes in there um and and we can defend from those uh uh nasty centralized AI which who are crawling the web so yeah that's that's my view there great and um miam we we were uh we learned about a project called van which was like a user owned data platform talk about maybe what is important about the idea of you know um systems where the data is owned by the user and also the user is maybe incentivized through like cryptoeconomic

incentives to provide that data how does that maybe feed into like the DC narrative right um yeah I think the DC narrative we talked about this earlier a little bit is somewhat of a um social movement too in a way how I think about it is right now what you do for public goods is you vote every four years or so but you don't actively shape the Public Health Care system for example or uh yeah or what uh yeah which goes into biod defense or um yeah help with public uh goods for cyber security for example but with uh contributing your data which

requires a lot more advancements in privacy Tech than we do have now um there can be a world where you as a citizen of uh X um not the platform um can contribute your data and help improve models in real time and help shape other areas of public goods other than governance which we're shaping so um I think these there's a lot of challenges with uh net N Net new data data Dows uh where you contri CU it's small sets it's niche data and then there's complexities of how to combine all that data and which data is even valuable and then how to prove and

ATT test that it's it's um good data and not um madeup or synthetic and um how to make sure that the model is not then hallucinating and things like that but um overall I think it ties in very well with the that's that's how it ties in in my view with the uh D movement which is um engaging based on a trust and safety level through Tech more people into these uh public goods um components of the system awesome um so briefly I just of course yeah I wanted to have you sort of talk about it through the context of zulu but if you're going to do that that's what I was going to say I mean I was just going

to quickly say that before zuu I was a Yuka Doomer and like I was spending way too much time in rationalist Meetup spaces in Europe and um and then balic actually invited our EUR European rationalist Community to to zuu and um so we are some of the groups not coming from like crypto or from AI longevity there are these different Industries and then there were like the European rationalists there um and I actually found some of the most inspiring parts of zulu and then eventually diak as he coined it as just providing a path forward of saying maybe things look bad maybe our probabilities look very very very bad but stopping or trying to slow down is maybe impractical if not impossible so how can we move forward in

a defensive way um on the DC side so a pathway forward and on the Zulu side from the original one and then I've seen in the you know dozens if the more of subsequent projects that have come from it it's bringing together also not just the thinkers and the worriers the Skeptics and the doubters and but lot builders that are very keen to try to solve these problems and say okay you know there's so you know immense risk on the side of AI even just in the hands of certain actors or the bad traits and all people with the wrong incentives Etc but there it's been a space um both in these extended co-living experiments where you

have these thinkers and Builders together saying all right this is a crazy moment like at the time of you know March through May 20123 and then it continues to be crazy moments that's not changing but at least bringing people together that that want to try to solve somehow or solve little pieces of the problem like having um zero knowledge proof in cryptographic Technologies to at least provide more data privacy to individual in to the to the individuals you know Etc so that's the my main connection with Zulu what it brought for me on a personal um level and that then also fueled the more professional side of things so at least we're trying to move forward in a cautiously optimistic

way and that's where I think in the my techno optimism article the first one he wrote and then he just um published another one a couple weeks ago that was an update I think if you're similarly feeling concerned or skeptical and worried about Direction it does provide at least some type of philosophical um fire to try at least while we still can yeah um and you know just speaking from my personal experience I spent a lot of my time in my day job at kmo researching uh a protocol called bit tensor which is kind of started decentralized AI uh crypto narrative and you know if the one the one thing that we can do to maybe counteract some of these centralized things is offer people

economic incentives you know vitalic you know pushes for the idea of choice it doesn't necessarily have to be like a philosophical argument that like hey the decentralized good open source good it can also be that open-source Tech can be incentivized through crypto monetary incentives to help us be centralized companies I think bit tenser is an interesting project that's doing that right now um all right let's move on a little bit to privacy biod defense safety sort of Beyond decentralized AI for things like um um yeah just for things like bios safety so um what are what are some individual freedoms um so obviously Health privacy safety um why are these

important for sustaining zalu so let's think about our current political context right now right we have sort of a rising tide of authoritarianism in the world you know leaders who are pushing for more centralized control top- down governance and you think about a you know a system or a community like zalu which is sort of like ragtag group of Nomads traveling the world talking about decentralization you know what sort of threats do these like Central nation state governments posed to us and what's at stake if we just Overlook the stuff and just say like well we can always do these experiments because we have been able to up to this point um I don't know who where wants to

start maybe Veronica like what's at stake yeah um this is recorded yeah yeah um I guess also the just see the second question why would any Nation allow true sovereignty Etc I just I would try to approach both questions at once it would say within zuu movement as a whole there are a number of different projects with different levels of ambition um and certain industries have real stake in needing some type of jurisdictional freedoms um especially when it comes to maybe regulation I

think we've seen in within this larger ecosystem longev and then of course web 3 are two directions that struggle in a lot of existing jurisdictions to like on the longevity side um for the valley of death in between where research on a molecule to then eventually get into the right like levels of Trials eventually then being able to be made into a medication there's a lot of bureaucratic barriers and so that's where we've seen projects that want some type of special zone or need some type of special jurisdiction really go in that direction and then what's at stake is they don't have for those type of researchers they

don't have an area in the world where they could actually test their maybe they have really promising research on one scale but they can't take it to another level and have humans try it Etc so that's one One Direction Where We would see it and why would a nation allow for this what we've seen is if the if a nation sees a project as bringing in some type of resources whether it's Talent OR capital or there's they they think of it just maybe as special tourism or there's a special Zone that's going to bring in that many more people um we've also seen representatives from Nations Express wanting to reduce brain drain and so we see maybe in the we're still

in early stages of course but long term if there are institutions that then or let alone industri cities that can compete with with the existing strong cities that usually drain top talent from around the world then that's also attractive for leaders that say you know all of our top mines are leaving to go to XYZ place and how can we they never come back how can we get them to stay here so um those are reasons that there might be you know jurisdictional freedoms that then are allowed on a nation side and then reasons that you know these projects with different levels of ambition not all want to not all of them want to get Sol by any means but that's where we've seen at least examples so far and what I feel comfortable saying right now on camera

understood understood um so I I'll let you guys um decid who wants to take sort of a flavor of the same question but what are your some some of your concerns about privacy and safety and what are you seeing in you know our our ecosystem that's um you know helping Foster that and potentially protect protect against you know nation state actors um sort of you know attempting to take some of the stuff away from us okay so I will have one thought that I will share is is uh that what will happen with the technology that we are building uh is that sometimes or very often actually it might not be used by the people we think uh we were thinking of and um and basically you will have

state actors uh that will be start will be using those uh those tools uh and actually sometimes even using the same tools to uh uh to make their own uh regime stronger that can that also can happen um and um and I'm taking like one simple example that we all know uh Bitcoin is a decentralized tool uh which has some uh uh there is a Utopia of the people who are building uh Bitcoin and it's already been taken by a state uh actor who's uh centralizing a lot of part of it uh I'm thinking of Salvador uh where you have a very authoritarian regime or somehow authoritarian regime in a certain way that that is taking

Bitcoin as a as a tool and actually many bitcoiners are are troubled by this uh by this phenomenon and so we will have the same kind of uh things happening so we have to reach a point where uh and I think we have to build a a very strong uh um political or Utopia vision of what the society could look like so that uh people also can um Can embra Embrace this kind of Technology with uh with a larger Vision because otherwise yeah these some of these we will have this step where these these technologies will be taken by not the people we we expected to have so um that that will be one of the biggest uh uh challenge that

we see forward Fair maram do you have a take um I was yeah Alexis has worked for the UN before so his view was probably a little more um informed there um um yeah I I do get the point of with the longevity movement which has um or special economic zones where this could be a little bit more in Focus I think at the moment the movement is still very small so I haven't heard of it being an actual problem as of now um and in the medical field like doing some research on humans I don't know how far that goes actually so um I

don't know if Nations States would bother about it um and in terms of Open Source software I think uh States also require software like the healthc care system in Germany is using Matrix uh servers to communicate with each other the different institutions they uh work with crypto companies developing secure enclaves in some of their institutions so there's a lot of uh Mutual um requirement to uh move forward in the best interest of what's best for the people so um taking the optimistic view here and um saying that

by experimenting um many more than just the people at susulu can benefit um by being exposed to these Technologies and if I hear things from like the CCC um and how hackable so much of public infrastructure is I think um states require people and not just um Whitehead hackers and uh a few select to work on these topics especially like privacy Tech so um my view is thanks uh yeah this is beneficial for for um more than its own sake awesome awesome um well we have a good

13 minutes left and it looks like guys are killing it using mircat because we have like a bunch of questions they being upvoted so uh let's dive into some of these let's see what the audience wants to talk about um so top rated question what are the risks and downsides to diac and popup cities what are the risks what are we doing badly here potentially anybody wants to take it first yeah I mean pop-up cities I I think that if Zulu gets reduced to just pop-up cities or is thought of as only pop-up cities then it's that's already a shame or that's a downside because it's

um become so much more and it began with a pop-up City and we're seeing this model of pop-up cities be continued I think in some ways because it works it makes sense for especially more nomadic crowds to instead of just going for a short amount of time go for a bit longer but as mentioned we're increasingly seeing these the movement towards permanent hubs but then when we have permanent hubs popup cities are a good model to bring a lot of people there for a short amount of time so we'll keep seeing that but it's not that alone at the same time what are the downsides to it other than it just becoming glorified Retreats um that have a different name um would also be you know we've there's it's been a consistent difficulty for

these temporary pop-up cities to be financially sustainable um it's especially with when there's if you're it's organized and it's including co-living and then it's a very expensive hotel which may be necessary in parts of the world to have security which can't be ignored but then it again is becoming like a fancy extended Retreat offsite type thing and maybe is missing these larger Ambitions or the potential that I think zuu really has to build Alternatives digitally and physically to the existing ing um places that we have um I think risks you know where I see the benefit of the movement being fairly

decentralized is that people can move freely between them um we even saw in changai last fall where there are a bunch happening at the same time some people were kicked out of one or didn't like one and then they just went to another one and that was a nice true moment of okay this is proving exit with low exit costs then you can have a lot of different projects happening where they have strong opinions on what is happening within that project I think if where I was especially concerned in the first year of zuu but I've been happy it's moved very far away from this direction was if it there was like Global governance or it becomes a cult of personality or a cult just in general um I think it's a that's why I've also been just very actively prop proponent of calling it a movement too and not a

community of the people that happen to be at this first one or however people would try to Define this singular community so so that's where I would say pop-up cities like any pop-up City could have those same risks that any group of humans coming together trying to coordinate let alone live or start a new society would have um and where I see the decentralization piece quite key diac I think we could also speak to the risk and downsides if either if you want to jump in or what yeah oh well so I I I actually had I I had te up a followup in my mind uh because somebody early on when we had this mirat on wrote longevity uh

whoever if you want to own it please raise your hand because I think that's totally fine uh and it said live better not longer I'm sorry you're very unlucky I have a good memory with these things uh so let's talk let's talk about longevity because I think that's an interesting one because I have a perspective you know when I first heard about the longevity movement and with especially within the context of these popup Villages it's like oh like you have a bunch of like wealthy privileged people who want to live longer like shouldn't we focus on public health as like curing diseases and things things that are like more more pressing general population issues and so I want to I want to maybe get your perspectives on what you think of longevity and whether you think like maybe I'm missing

something here like whether by attacking longevity we actually do solve those problems I mean yeah I think uh I think there is a part of Truth to that that uh there's rich people who invest money into C preservation and life extension Technologies like that um and then there is also a part where it's just uh live better longer and there's knowledge is being spread about how to treat your injuries better or how to do more preventative health care in terms terms of blood tests and so on um I personally have definitely been

exposed to both sides and there's this whole dii movement going on um where it's about how can we uh collectively be incentivized uh to yeah come up with Innovation faster for example um or Target Niche diseases that um some people suffer from but it's not on top of the list for big farmer companies and so I think it goes Beyond longevity um it's still very early and very speculative and I think that's what these movements help with to figure out where this is going and have smart people give their input on it I I want to make a comment not from me from a friend who's a CER called Maxim olowski

maybe some of some of you know him and so he made a he made on his blog a very interesting uh thing where he mentions longevity and I think what he says he wants he's like he really wants to live as long as possible and I think and he thinks even the human race will find a way to uh live forever um and um and I think um I don't have this uh wish myself but I think there's so many people around the world that want to that I think it's quite inevitable right that's the that's the the first part um but then once you uh push yourself into a society where like no one dies what happens in the structure of power of the

the people and basically you have a tendency to centralization like I was saying before power goes more and more into into the uh a few so um a transparent Society where people would live forever would basically be a society M mly made of mostly uh uh kind of Slave people and a few dozen uh controlling uh people um and so how do you reverse this well is by by making the weaker one invisible to the stronger one and that's where privacy Tech comes in right so uh uh actually longevity uh if you if you don't want if you're not one of the top 10 people who are controlling the world uh uh if you

want to live long long life you have an incentive of uh very strong privacy I could debate longevity with anyone that wants to um but I I think a lot of arguments against like current longevity research or funding you could like say you could go back a hundred years and then ask them like penicillin like who has access to penicillin or who can afford to use XYZ like you know what the I don't know the numbers off the top of my head of how long people were living 100 years ago compared to how long we're living on average now and ask them and then they say oh that's unnatural we don't want to extend life x amount of time um I think the yeah I can I can debate this for a while CU I did

get quite longevity pilled um some time ago and I think the on an individual level you can think of like live forever or die trying maybe you think it's a very unlikely like like it's very very unlikely that you will live forever but if you try to think long term then maybe you're going to make better decisions on an individual level of okay well maybe I won't be as self-destructive as I usually am because I want to live tomorrow and most people would say that they want to live tomorrow and if you ask yourself when do you want to die then ask yourself at that point still do you want to die now are you ready um and maybe it's to you know there's some reasons to keep living curiosity family Etc and then again when it you know Altech like you can look at you know

when Tech comes out the price of it and then over time um it becoming more widespread I think there's really valid concerns when it comes to enshrining power um but I think that those are not exclusive to longevity I think we already have those issues and there's something like you know all you dictators aren't dying of old age usually it's other reasons that's overthrowing them but not to say that those risks aren't still there and that's why we need defensive acceleration fair fair um okay so I think we have time for one more the top rated question we have up here right now is do you have examples of tools being built by the zel Community we talked about some those already and I want to sort of build on that question something that I thought of shortly before this panel which is what happens in terms of

the ethos of open source of the open source Community specifically maybe zalu when a team that's building an open source tool sort of finds like pretty significant product Market fit they want to commercialize they maybe want to start a for-profit company uh what I guess like what are your perspectives on where that puts them in sort of like the Dak versus eak bucket like is this like sort of a betrayal of the ethos or is there ways we can support these teams to sort of go for the more like for-profit route I have an answer yeah um so um I think the uh the the the the defensive approach can be something that can be uh designed fundamentally in the society

where it actually strives business and having a business in privacy or uh in decentralization is actually a good thing and it will actually provide uh value to to the to to the whole society and it's not incompatible right um but you're right that sometimes um and this is a tendency like you start off with a with a vision which is very optimistic and decentralized and um very morally that feels good and then you are facing the reality of oh I need to uh survive and that my product needs to be sold somehow and make money and then you switch you you're making shortcuts that where that that that sees this but fundamentally I think that's having a

system with exchange of value and this is and this I think it's a there's a question about uh uh free and uh free and open source software also um there is a there the there is um um realization now that uh you can build tech for and and common goods uh with the notion of value being uh not a taboo right uh uh the value of Bitcoin the value of ether uh it's something which is not a daoo for us which is still for a lot of people in the open source communities because they've they've been and I I was part of that I'm part I'm part of that too and for years and years there was no cryptocurrency and we were building a world where we had sharing

economy and there was no and money was bad but suddenly with open source we bu we build money and we build value systems of where we can exchange stuff and I think it's not incompatible we but we have to be of course true to the open source principles yeah I would also say like for the Practical example of mircat which obviously is a fully open source and it's these projects can start of working with a grant but then you can say okay I can do the E way and I can start to do a SAS software BAS out of it I can keep it fully open source or I can find a middle ground where I could start up a data Dow for the questions contributed and uh yeah turn it into find new incentive mechanisms which goes

into the middle way and all of these are valid path um I think some are more supported in the current ecosystem like you could go the gitcoin route or you could go the VC route or find your own uh token project way in the middle but um maybe that's something for us to salute to build out upon and support projects but I would love to actually bring this back as a last thing to Veronica and go into like on the question um examples of tools Beyond Mirad and like maybe different categories and which winners you have seen so far and how far they've taken it sure and I see under minutes I'll be very fast and I'll also to answer the question that at least on for zu. City we are neutral and so we are not saying

you have to be open source you have to follow all of these the specific values we want to incentivize or nudge people to work in that direction um but ultimately be neutral so allowing we have a permission list App Store that is the ver first version launching maybe this week next week um and but what's required is that you're transparent on whether you are open source whether where are the smart contracts Etc and then with the pensive mechanism with ethereum Community Fund and other um evaluation tools then finding ways of you know the having algorithms can list the priorities or the preferences and not every community that we envision using the community OS is going to care

about open source or care about it being truly decentralized databases web 3 we want to give that decision to the allow that as many decisions to be to the user as possible I think we get into the most like bickering with our team whether things are neutral enough and if there's any slight decision made then we try to backtrack and say no this has to be neutral but still because privacy first and use our own data those transparency legitimacy these are all our values and that doesn't exist in Alternatives that's why we make sure that at least those options are there um and so when it comes to zuu software broadly in these tools we also see it as inevitable or it's necessary for tools to have not be fully open- sourced not fully decentralized and maybe they need to get

funding along the way and so we want to acknowledge that that is a part of the process at the same time so asking what type of tools and we have the categories and I wrote it to make sure so of course there's identity decentralized identity um governance modules economic modules communication social and then the event scheduling modules those are some of the different verticals where we have different um or we have tools at different levels of usability for it and especially on the financial mod or the funding module that is one of our main focuses at the moment so that communities whether it's another question about pop-up cities or it's the projects themselves Tech projects can start to fund themselves in a more grassroot way and not have to go the

traditional routes but until until we are in this utopian environment where you know open- Source tools and developers are are able to make it work just and justify it compared to Alternatives then we want to support those as well so some quick examples I mean one I think really strong example that we saw in the last year um is Lotto pgf which does onchain lotteries for public goods funding and of course they have they have the backing of you know thousands of years of states or you know institutions using lotteries to fund public goods and that's what they're um matching as one example and so that's one module Financial module um on the zu. city platform that we have brought

in to help give an alternative so that's the long rambling way of saying yes we want to stay neutral but nudge nudge applications ultimately to be moving in the direction without us having to say this is exactly what need needs to be done um yeah you can you can check out I know we're out of time to see more more examples of tools we also have our if you go to Zulu do City you can click on our documentation and we're continuously working on updating that and then look out in the coming weeks also for the first version of our permission list appap store um to then see the really amazing tools that are being built in the zlu software movement awesome okay well we're out of time so I want to thank my panelists for being awesome and

answering all these questions and and I want to thank you guys for participating in submitting questions we had a lot of participation so thank you very much for coming and hope you have a great rest of your conference [Applause] [Music]