Curve’s $70M Hack, Coinbase's Base Launch, Meme Coin BALDs $100M 48hr Market Cap + More | Roundup

Transcript

all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-hosts today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode thanks everyone we've got a great episode here but before we do I just wanted to give a quick shout out to permissionless this is the biggest and best conference in all of defy it's the one that we do with bankless who's a great partner for us last year we had almost 7 000 people there in West Palm Beach we are moving this year to Austin Texas from September

11th through the 13th and if you are a listener bell curve any of these last five seasons this conference is basically custom made for you we're going to be talking about liquid staking the theme of this season we've got a bunch of great panels on Mev if you listen to the app chain thesis we've got a bunch of Cosmos folks out there in full force we're talking about the converging architecture of Solana the roll-up space in eth and Cosmos so I would love to see all of you there and to reward you for being such great listeners to Bell curb you get a special 30 off code it's bell curve 30. that'll get you 30 off tickets click the link in the show notes and then head over to the permissionless site and make sure that you get your ticket today again that is bell curve 30 click the link in the show

notes all right everyone welcome back to another Roundup edition of bell curve today you've got me and in the homie miles just the two of us holding down the fort here miles welcome back to the show buddy oh it's good to be back two two apps in one week you know I'm feeling feeling deeply appreciated over here uh well we have a really good episode for you there's there's been a it's probably gonna come as a surprise but it's been a busy week in crypto so far we had we had uh some high drama and the firm in the form of exploits we had a research and degeneracy on base and we also had uh for for more of the folks on the right side of the bell curve on this podcast we had uh uh Barnaby uh the ethereum foundation has provided some more details on Pepsi and I thought we

could segue and just discuss some of the the new details that Barnaby came out with but also just talk about it in the context of the discussion that we started to have at the end of the tree ROM episode and it was great to see Barnaby also connected it to some of the other ideas that we had connected it with as well such as some of the like vote extensions and ABCI plus plus and Cosmos and eigenlayer and uh yeah there's a lot of really interesting stuff to dig into there yeah no it's uh shocking to hear that the EF you know actually listens to us but uh the I thought I thought it was great and actually clarified a lot of questions that I I had about Pepsi so we're excited to get into that a little bit later all right let's let's start by

talking about curve and I just want to do the caveat here we're recording this on August 3rd this this Thursday so many of you have probably already gotten to the nitty-gritty kind of gory details of the curve exploit so we're just going to do a very high level on that and then miles where I want to spend our time is going into the second and third order implications of this and just try to to Riff on that a little bit so you know the high level is that it's been pretty public news that the current founder Michael egarov has a very large outstanding loan which is collateralized with CRV and that's done primarily on Aubrey on Ave but also on some other platforms as well Abracadabra et cetera and Reese the the problem got kicked off when there was an exploit in one of the

I think several actually of the curve pools the way that it the exploit happened was actually pretty discouraging for folks that hold their Assets in D5 it was actually a a sort of day A1 bug in the Contracting language which is Viper so there was just sort of this day one bug that has actually been around for a very long period of time it unfortunately led to Michael losing some more some more of his uh curve Holdings um that led the market to kind of start to price in where he was going to get liquidated as soon as that stuff goes out into the out into the open the shark the Sharks start circling and people are basically trying to snipe off his position it looks like what what

Michael's been able to do thus far is to sell some CRV OTC and raise up enough funds to top off his positions again the largest one being on Ave but some other platforms as well he was also scrambling kind of selling off ldo in these sort of ten thousand dollar chunks and it looks like for the time at the time of this recording that he's scrambled up enough cash to to save himself but sort of a tough tough week in a black eye for defy I would say it certainly makes you question you know if there's been a day one bug in the programming language of curve for this long I mean if you can't trust one of the majors like curve just makes it that much harder to custody your assets on

chain and what did you find yourself thinking about all this yeah I mean just on that security point I think um we like to say that there are you know a small handful of protocols that have battle hardened you know contracts uh right yeah exactly Defy is you know extremely antagonistic environment for for protocols um and when one doesn't get hacked for you know a few years among tons of other hacks then it you know the the confidence basically compounds um and it's incredibly important uh so when you have a like an incident like this where we thought one of the very few battle-hardened protocols you know that was had stood the text of time

actually has a critical vulnerability that was there from the day one it you know it makes you uh nervous um about you know I guess just the scope of attack surface uh that that it you know these D5 protocols have to deal with and so you know I think there's been a lot of talk about so circuit breaker Security Services in the past but the concern has always been if you add something like a circuit breaker that you know pauses the protocol whenever a hack is detected you lose you know composability with with the rest of the D5 ecosystem that is you know relying on your protocol for for certain functions um and that's really the role that curve

does play with a lot of defy right um it is a Lego block that tons of protocols you know link into and I do think that if we can break through those trade-offs we would have a huge it would be a huge boost to to the D5 ecosystem um so that's that's maybe the first take uh we need circuit breakers that don't break composability or at least give you know trade-offs that are a lot more acceptable um and then the second takeaway which has you know been a kind of uh take of mine for a lot a while might be a hot take might be lukewarm but um I really don't think it's healthy when

the functionality or utility of your protocol um can be impacted by the price of your token um and I just use this analogy you know what if there was a market event that impacted hood and then all of a sudden Robin Hood you know the value propolis degraded either it was less secure or you know services that were relied upon could no longer be relied upon I don't think that's a healthy thing and so this concept of ve tokens you know has been in discussion for a very very long time um and you know essentially curves role is to be a critical piece of

defy infrastructure um right and many of these D5 protocols use curved pools they uh rely on curve emission incentives um basically to offset what would be otherwise pretty unprofitable LP positions let me just insert just for folks who aren't familiar with with the the tokenomics of curve but the the way the toke the tokenomics of curve works is that you are you are incentivized you're basically the structure of the token works that you're taxed if you're just a regular CRV holder what you are incentivized to do is to lock up your token into a vote escrow model anywhere from one to four years that however long

you lock your CRV tokens up will give you disproportionate power to direct the emissions of CRV into different liquidity pools so the way it's supposed to work is if you're a stable coin and curve is the premiere menu for for our stable coin liquidity what you can do is buy a bunch of CRV lock it up direct CRV emissions to your pool and farmers will essentially you know want to LP there because the rewards will be greater so that's what you mean right when you say that that the price of the the token matters a lot to the actual functioning of the product and last thing I'll say it's actually sort of bitcoinished in a way because the tokenomics it very similarly to bitcoin they actually uh shoot I our analyst stand is rolling

over in his grave right now but there's a there's a splitting there's a kind of having event that happens I'm pretty sure at the frequency of might be every year might be four years for curve but yeah there are less emissions that get emitted over time similarly to bitcoin right right and I think I think that's all well and good um but if I guess my point is if your protocol relies on incentives to keep all this scaffolding you know uh intact um and the incentives you know are at risk of going to zero then at any given point right I I just think that that's one more risk that protocols really don't need to introduce um to to build a successful product and I think that you know it's probably you know versus very well known to the team

and I think it's probably part of why you know the co-founder out enormous credit lines on his CRV positions rather than you know diversifying and selling that CRV position on dumping it on the open market which I think is great um to not you know dump on your all of your holders um but now that his position is very well known and the implications of a liquidation are very well known people are going to hunt that position um and if half of the circulating market cap of of CRV is is liquidated um I'm guessing that drives the price of CRV close to zero um and then all the scaffolding kind of

comes apart right um and so you know uniswap has taken kind of the opposite route doesn't have the token play any role in the protocol and instead relies upon this you know assumption that there's a sophisticated supply side that will come in and actively manage you know their liquidity to be profitable um there are definitely questions of whether or not they're actually profitable or not but I would rather have this assumption and figure out ways to you know make them profitable rather than just relying on everybody holding this token and holding some value in this token um yeah so I think that this probably doesn't completely put the ve token

discussion to bed but I haven't heard a lot of people kind of connecting this back to you know maybe this is not a great idea maybe we should have the token play like less of a role in the functioning of a product yeah let me let me just comment correct what I said before so the inflation schedule gets reduced by about 15 every year so that emissions will actually stop in 2040. let me push back a little bit miles and just say you know I'm I'm torn on I don't have as much of a strong opinion as you do here because you know in one sense it's very compelling to me to just say these protocols should basically be treated as companies and these tokens are a claim

on cash flow et cetera Etc but I you know then I sort of remind myself that maybe I'm being a little bit too looking at the world as it exists today and not being optimistic enough that we've started to do something new here and I would remind you also that the major successes that we've had thus far in crypto also are these sort of circular reflexive uh mechanisms so Bitcoin is one ethereum is one and you know whenever someone says you know we don't we haven't found the killer use case yet for crypto I mean haven't we I mean I mean you know non-sovereign money um you know an open Smart Contracting platform that anyone can build anything on I mean these are not nothing use

cases and curve curve reminds me of that a little bit and while while I understand you know in the Robin Hood example maybe the best example would be if Robin Hood was incentivizing its market makers with hood and then once the stock went down low enough then all the liquidity fled the platform or something I understand that that would be bad but I also I I can't help but be optimistic about these sorts of models and maybe someone will crack the code and make this you know or Flex of flywheel is powerful when it's pumping in the right direction too so I see where you're coming from but I'm I'm in the undecided camp on this personally yeah I think that's fine I I guess I would I would say that you know I think some of the most successful like apps that we've had

today have no token functionality whatsoever you know just point to like open C and uniswap as as two of them um and you know they come people use these products because they offer those those value props that you were talking about right basically the ability to transact and um you know participate in financial markets permissionlessly uh to transfer value permissionlessly um and I think that the team's building on ethereum are not building on ethereum because of say eip1559 or something like that is you know tokenomics related um if anything I would say that's like a detract Factor um so yeah maybe it's just this point of

the bear Market where you know everybody's fufuing on on tokenomics and and whatnot and I sound like a boomer but I also just you know would don't feel like it's healthy that anytime there could be a market scare of your token price people are you know liquidity is leaving or something like that yeah I do agree with that and I will stay open-minded I will because if you don't in this space then you get left behind you do and actually one time I forget it was it might have been on an Empire podcast with Jason but Jason and I went on and did predictions you know like six seven predictions for the new year or something yeah this was at the peak of the bull market and I

went back and I listened a year after and I was like oh my God I can't believe I said some of those things yeah and the mistake that I made was assuming that the last 12 months were indicative of the next 12 months and it's really easy to make that mistake of this period of time as well you know it's been this great unraveling and sort of period of disillusionment that bear markets always are that provide Clarity but it has the the chance it can make you go too far in One Direction and one thing about you so I agree with you also that that protocols should be more probably conservative in the beginning around launching a token I would say Open Season a little bit of a different category they're a more traditional company and uniswap is a little bit of an enigma to me because those LPS that

you I looking at unit swap from the outside it's kind of unclear why the business Works actually or why the protocol works the LPS first of all it's very concentrated bunch of LPS that stand that protocol up and they're surrendering on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars per year in il to ethereum and I don't think it's you know usually if you're a very large if you have those sorts of funds you tend to be a pretty sophisticated actor I don't think it's too far to say that the folks that are lp'ing in those sort of situations might have you know an ulterior or secondary Financial Arrangement that make it worth it for them to do that but I you know as much as I'm a fan of of of everything

going on at uniswap like I'm not sure if anyone has fully cracked the answer here I agree I think maybe just two quick points like I think there's a difference between launching a token and not launching token versus launching a token and making the your token like required you know to use in the product itself I get that yeah yeah so there's like that's that small difference um and then obviously like launching a token has implications on the operating and governance structure that needs to be thought through like very a lot as well um yeah you could argue it's a head scratcher but that's because often uh like uniswap has really uh prioritized the demand side

um and so as long as flow is there there is going to be potential for to make profits I think the data has been you know showing that if you are not in the top one percent of the one percent of LPS of the smartest LPS then you're not gonna make money but um you know that that Capital base of that very small you know uh end is very big um and yeah I think if anything curve is maybe um aligned itself more with the supply side of liquidity providers um because that supply side is not just individuals that supply side is D5 protocols that build on it right um and those are kind of customers in a way so from that side it's you know from that

perspective it's understandable Dex architecture is pretty interesting to me it's you have three large sets of stakeholders you could you could expand that out a little bit and say they're actually four maybe even five but what you have is the protocol itself you've got makers and you've got takers you've got swappers and LPS and a lot of the interesting lines of research around dexes have to do with getting different stakeholders to pay the appropriate amount or make sure that value is distributed appropriately and if you imagine this bar which is the amount of Revenue that the protocol can generate kind of based on transaction costs there's actually a very interesting line of research and why uniswap I would

guess is so is switching to a Singleton contract is gas is actually cutting into their own margins right uh so because that's less that you could charge uh if if swappers already have to pay a gas fee then there's this pretty interesting research around arbitrars and how much they should get paid right now they're probably getting paid too much and there are ways to quantify and um sort of segment off some of the more toxic flow and and so you can kind of think about reducing the cost structure for the the protocol in the form of gas and then you could also think about maybe introducing new ways of monetizing so you grow this bar right and that could be that could be you know swap's kind of crushing it right now actually

they're really they've got the wallet layer you know they've got their front end and then their retail facing wallet which who knows maybe they end up deciding to monetize order flow and they've got the aggregation layer in the uniswap X and they're kind of rfq'ing that and they're that's the demand side and then they've got the liquidity layer in the form of V4 the only question is is there going to be a settlement layer and are we gonna we going to get unit chain but it's and that would fix that would really truly fix the uh the cost that they're paying in rent to ethereum the protocol but men uh it's pretty cool what they're doing they're further and further aligning themselves with the most sophisticated actors on the supply side right because you know uniswap X just says sorry LPS like it a lot of

these orders are not going to get routed to you and the ones that are are not going to be the ones that you want to see they're going to be a lot of the toxic flow um but that gives the users on the demand side the best possible experience and so I think that they've been very strategic in aligning themselves with both you know the users and what the basically the product that they get and then this very you know small class of sophisticated supply side actors um and we'll see if yeah I I I'm less confident you know in the prospects of there being uni chain just because you know you don't necessarily need to operate a full chain if you can basically abstract away the chain with the aggregator in the wallet level

um and still give users exactly what they want they don't need to give a where you know which chain it's on right and so I think maybe that's more of the bet that they're making just a bookend that whole conversation is in general I tend to root for the whole Space when stuff like this happens and you never love to see a chain get exploited I I do though think that the designs that ultimately win in D5 this is a lesson that I think we're ignoring from Trad five that I think we should be paying more heat to Simplicity design Simplicity risk great risk management long game you know it it's very exciting because we're all you know crypto's a young industry and we'd love to see cool stuff who doesn't like to see Innovation happen but I do think the reason tradify tends to be so

risk-averse is because they've seen it go wrong in a million different ways and probably the ones who've stuck around and built enduring businesses over there do a great job of risk management yes and and it's become a defining set of principles that I'm I'm starting to look at most D5 protocols through you know but I spent the first part of my career at Fidelity and that was really we were selling trust right and and the idea was long-term greedy like that is the mindset to get into um but long-term gradient typically means saying no to a lot of really exciting potential short-term opportunities

um and then playing your cards right to know okay what is actually real and what is synergistic with our existing products to then go expand into but not typically being the first to do it not typically being the most you know aggressive um and I think you know keeping to those principles is going to benefit a lot of a lot of D5 protocols I mean we spent a lot of time on this season talking about Lido and you know should they expand into restaking should they expand into XYZ right or should they just do one thing and do it great and win the entire Market um and and not open themselves up to all these additional attack vectors you know I think we'll see interesting trade offices

teams look to expand you know horizontally or vertically um and think about you know the the risks around that potentially um everybody everybody thinks about the revenue opportunity obviously there's this very simple kind of diagram I I repeat this a lot internally at block Works to the point where people are definitely sick of hearing but you know if you look at this industry what it is is it's this line that's going like this you know aggressive ups and aggressive downs and if you imagine mentally drawing a line through this series of like upward trending curves be the line and what that means is be more cautious and conservative in Bull markets and it'll look like you're losing for a

little bit which is really mentally taxing and but then also be the line during bear markets and don't throw your hands up in Despair and say none of this none of this stuff works just keep your head down and keep expanding in a way that's consistent and then you'll ride you know that what you the payoff for being that line through the the squiggle is that the slope of the line is much higher than an average industry and if you can just put your head down and build through this over a long period of time you'll get paid off all right I wanna I wanna um talk to you a little bit about base because we had base launch this week this is the long-awaited this is the first major I think op stack chain there's obviously a chain that is launched and operated by

coinbase uh Twitter users found out that you can there's a one-way bridge that opened up to base this week and I think the numbers were at least as of earlier our our one of our reporters Andrew Thurman wrote about this but uh there were about 98 000 addresses that bridged over to base 75 000 of those have um also bridged over to polygon Phantom or binance smart chains so you can make your own assumptions but yeah I'd consider these sort of d-gen crypto power users there were a couple of Base dexes that popped up very quickly Elite Swap and Rocket swap it was 230 million dollars worth of volume uh 24-hour

volume at 1.700 000 trades I mean pretty pretty crazy and there was of course in true crypto fashion a meme coin the meme coin was bald which objectively is funny it's objectively funny uh so we got to give that credit best thing for the industry I don't know but objectively funny and there was a hundred million dollars worth of them are at reach a hundred million dollar market cap in just two days and then someone the the dev who made that essentially they were providing liquidity and then they just rugged it it basically went to zero so I I'm I'm not Ultra surprised about how any of this is played out it's been actually a revenue generator for for coinbase thus far so let me present this

here one of our analysts Westy put this together in just three days coinbase or at base has accrued over 700 000 in profit so that is net of the cost of posting that data to the L1 which on an annual basis is 85 million so not too shabby for the first three days of the of the yeah which yeah I think we can we should not maybe extend out this like you know extraordinarily you know DJ explosion of activity out to what will be like you know the average uh daily profits but it still gives you a sense of what this could be nonetheless if it really blows up I mean yeah I

think it's all fascinating um one of the themes of that I was surprised like not to hear a lot about in Paris is how you know bass and mantle as well from from bit down and by bit are kind of laying out this blueprint for how Enterprises can finally build you know Enterprise blockchains without having to say this is a private blockchain and a Walled Garden completely and you know all of the negative sentiment that goes with that um this is actually a way to build products on chain and have retained some of those benefits of a private blockchain retain the benefits of control um and compliance and things like that that

they that they care about and so what's interesting to me is they're you know we're starting to see what kind of works and what doesn't work with this with this plan um and I think you know we've talked about this a lot but the trade-offs around curation uh versus completely permissionless when you're building out a platform um and we see here how that can impact the end user experience right now base being the first was not likely going to come out and say you know we're going to have permissioned Smart contract deployment we're going to at least have you know if not permission to Smart contract deployment maybe something like the

Apple Store where you have to meet a certain set of Standards like hey I have a real product this is a this is a not a scam right to to actually Deploy on our rollup um and I think if you go back in time to when optimism and arbitrum launched you know optimism fell way behind because arbitrim didn't have this white list right for for for deploying um and I think bass probably looked at that and said you know we don't want to lag behind we don't want to come off as super opinionated and this is we don't want to have a private blockchain but I do think that you know other Enterprises that are kind of watching these Pioneers you know launch these you know I would say Enterprise Roll-Ups let's just call

it um are looking at this and saying hmm maybe we should be a little bit more opinionated or at least have like some sort of you know standard for deploying on uh that you have to meet in order to deploy on our roll up um and how do we strike that balance you know when it's such a competitive space right now every Roll Up is competing to get apps to you know launch on their chain and some apps like you know will would love to associate their brand with bass but does base really want to associate their brand with with them um so I just think it's interesting we'll see I I think base and and mantle will be the first of many uh companies

launching Roll-Ups um as platforms and and building first class apps on those platforms um and we'll revisit this conversation of like curation for the benefits of users versus permissionless so let me ask you this do you think bald and that whole explosion of activity albeit meme coin speculation was good or bad for bases launch um it's definitely my my inclination like was bad like I don't I think like more more of the same here is not necessarily what we need um something that is like differentiated

and and just really clean uh and and gets through to you know a larger class of users is is more of what we need but at the same time you know I'm not trying to Discount the power of of speculation and and what it has you know how it's boosted like the crypto space broadly right I think it's good I thought this was good and the argument that I'll make is so coinbase is one of the old everyone kind of owes coinbase I sort of feel like a debt of gratitude being in crypto they are the the blue chip they're a public company they are not perfect but they've done it about as right as you could possibly have wanted to do it and

when they're you know when they this this move of base chain was a really big one and what would have kind of sucked is if they had made it this corporate kyc'd thing from day one it just yeah I understand why but I would have just my soul would have been a little bit crushed and I think that's why you know and do I think bald is great no I don't but you know at least I was kind of like all right coinbase like way to let your hair down yeah yeah and and the other thing that I you know it's all very well and good to say hey we'd like a more sophisticated class of users great who who wouldn't but these are the users that we have today right now you know I I don't think it's some UI decision or product choice or

something you I think as a as a crypto protocol right now have two choices you can build for your dgen audience today or you can build for no one because there aren't these Normie people out there that are watching bass saying man if only there wasn't a meme coin here I'd go in the night start LPN on this stuff yeah it's just you have two choices you have to and this is where I think really great Visionary product designers this is the art you know that complements the science of product design which is meeting the market that exists today yeah while also threading that into a longer term Vision which is because you know cryptos it's just a graveyard littered with people

that we're building for what they thought the market should be yeah you they're just so many companies that have died doing that I think that's totally fair I think that's totally fair I think I them you know the crypto native community and myself included also would have been like yeah that's not great if they made every single user that connects kyc and they had some sort of Highly highly curated you know impossible to get through like deployment process um do I think that there's a portion of these future customers and when I say customers I don't mean end users but companies that are going to develop you know plat Roll-Ups and applications

that's look at this and say okay I like the spirit of it but maybe there's like maybe we've gone like oh there's a little bit full extreme permission list maybe there's like and then on the other side is fully curated and just very you know stiff and corporate and maybe there's some balance just right there or maybe there's just better tools that we could add to help protect users while not actually being opinionated on the deployment you level like you know there's there's a lot missing and it's unclear exactly how you can strike that balance um but I do think trust you know is uh like plays an enormous role in all of this um and coinbase has been really really

thoughtful about how to build trust um with both the crypto native Community as well as the more traditional side you know like the face that they put on when they walk into BlackRock is probably different than the face that they put on when they announce bass on Twitter spaces like and they're threading that needle um to be both what the market wants today as well as positioning itself to be you know the go-to provider for everybody tomorrow um and yeah I think this is one example where they're probably looking at it like um how do we handle this um but yeah we'll see we'll see yeah tough uh my heart's out there for people

to try to create products in crypto because it's it's difficult the the end State Market is certainly not the market that you have today but you can't just ignore the market that you have today yeah yeah so you got to do something so yeah the other question that I found myself asking especially looking at that those profit figures for that coinbase is going to base is going to generate albeit likely you're absolutely right miles we shouldn't just extrapolate the first three-day meme coin Bonanza out into the future but what portion of this is optimism C and how is value going to accrue and this I think is an unanswered question in terms of these stack architectures that I'm actually a big fan of I really like the op stack and you know arbitrum orbit has a little bit of a different

one they have l3s that actually point you to settle on arbitrum first which maybe is their answer for how they're going to accrue value but settlement as I had a great conversation with I mean that's Neil simani this week at Eclipse shout out for explaining to me like I'm five the cost structure here settlement is very cheap settlement is not the major cost for Roll-Ups yeah not at all to to the to the I think optimism is paying something like five dollars a day to ethereum correct me if I'm way off there but I'm pretty sure it's I mean it's a very very negligible amount so all of this Revenue that you know it was a huge win from a BD perspective when bass was launching on the op stack but how they gonna accrue

value yeah yeah we've talked about like this in the past a little bit and the position the tough somewhat tough position that that op and optimism is in um you know I look at this this roll-up value accrual you know kind of competition um and I think that there's a couple big stakeholders here um there's the op I'm sorry like the roll-up Frameworks uh there's the roll up as a service providers um and then of course there are you know the applications and the roll-up teams that are building using the stack right um but that's they're not using it on op mainnet which accrues value directly or arbitrum one which occurs value directly

to arbitrum and op and the tokens so the short answer is you know if you use the op stack or the Arboretum stack um and you use a roll-up as a service provider to help you launch um the two people that are seeing Revenue are the roll-up team and the roll-up as a service provider the the stakeholder they're not seeing any revenue is the op framework and the token behind that that you know helped launch and like build all this infrastructure right um and if you look at on the cosmo side where we have similar sort of Dynamics with Adam right Adam was a Ico that funded out the development of the cosmos

SDK IBC and all of these components are now used for different app chains um and now Adam is basically trying to reverse engineer a way to accrue value back to its token without really you know levying too hard of attacks on the app chains that it has helped made successful right and those two things are kind of at odds I could see op you know I think they're now trying to pull some influence and and value capture back in by putting out this you know law of chains um tell us miles what is the law of change yeah on that the my understanding is that anybody is free to use the op

stack forkit you know customize it however they want um but there's a difference between an OP stack chain and an OP stack chain that is part of the super chain um and what that means is that they basically have this you know set of Standards both Technical and social that is kind of like a I would say you know what you're accepting to like the you know conditions you're accepting as a user to color yourself you know part of the super chain um this is kind of like if they're again maybe just going back to Cosmos because there's so much history here if there was you know a requirement from Adam let's say Adam owned you know

governed the cosmos SDK and IBC and they would vote on upgrades and every chain that used it had to upgrade at the exact same time um right now that's not the case everybody uses these components but they're using different versions and you know it's kind of it's kind of a show honestly it makes things very challenging I think op learned from that and they said we're actually going to take a more active role in enforcing the standards that that make up the op stack um so sorry no you're not going to be able to customize however you want you know to the nth degree if you want to be part of the super train you're willing to do that like you're feel free to do that but you're no longer part of the super chain and I think what they're hoping for is that the network effects

associated with sharing these standards are powerful enough that people will be motivated to join the super chain um these are things like you know infrastructure services that can easily plug in as soon as you stand your stand up your chain because they already support this you know exact same stack with every other super chain um roll up or let's say interoperability maybe there's something along the lines of like a shared sequencer that really only works well with super chains um and I think that that's there's definitely some Merit to that but it also puts them in a position where they can then you know Levy maybe more of a tax on their the super chains as well like hey by the way kick back like one percent of all sequencer Revenue if you

want to remain part of the super chain um and that way the roll-up framework actually has some value associated with it right now um like the cosmos SDK there is no value associated with the cosmos SDK the only people that are profiting off of the development of the cosmos SDK are those that are using it for their application right and all that value accrues to the applications token in the same way that you know like Avo right the ribbon roll up um we'll use the op stack and its sequence or revenues will end application revenues will go to both you know rib and avo and maybe like the rasp provider it's using to help host those sequencers

um so it's a really interesting like coopetition between these rasp providers and the Frameworks themselves because they need it everybody's in this grow mode but in the back of their head it feels like people are you know starting to realize there's actually going to be a lot of competition and tension you know for Value accrual um and starting to position themselves to to capitalize on that yeah I am reminded of this quote some podcast I've heard a while ago probably invest like the best where this guy was describing some of the greatest battles that happen in technology are not between competitors but actually people that are different parts of the

same stack and they start competing for Value accrual and margin and that's probably what is happening now and just to put some more concrete examples the roll-up provider would be optimism in this case conduit would be the RAS the roll-up as a service and then there would be various chains that use that infrastructure and part of this is it is yet to be determined at what level execution data availability or settlement the network effects accrue and I'm just going to go ahead and say many people in this space assume that it's going to be at the settlement layer when I think you're starting to see pretty compelling evidence that that's

not necessarily the case and there is is let me make an argument that I only kind of believe in here and then you can tell me why I'm wrong but these Roll-Ups have done a very good job you and I have talked about alignment and this sort of marketing magic that goes along with alignment and these people that kind of believe that these Roll-Ups are expanding ethereum and I'm not really sure that's actually the case you know you could you could certainly if the lock-in in the network effect tends to be at the execution layer which is kind of this role of sequencing and so there's a bunch of off-chain Cheaper computation that gets

done at the roll-up player transition transactions are sequenced up here there's a set of standards that these you know maybe it's the law of chains or you know some Ras provider kind of nails it and there's this stack that ends up taking off here that works then you could sort of Imagine a world where well data availability on ethereum is really expensive so we're going to route that through Celestia and then you know we'll maybe we'll probably settle to ethereum but maybe we'll get cheaper settlements somewhere else and you know and It ultimately you know there's a probably important question is do you think in these Roll-Ups heads they're going to stay permanently on ethereum I don't know I believe in people's economics so it really depends on

you know if the incentives of the token holders on optimism or arbitrum or ZK sync or any of these these app chains if they end up differing greatly from the token holders on ethereum and it is not a one battle about and the other thing I'll say to defend Cosmos a little bit is you and I did that whole app chain thesis on Cosmos and and we talked about a spectrum of different possibilities of you know you launching as a Dap on ethereum to you having your own roll app is the terminology that we used or doing your full full stack app chain and we laid out a sequencing which is you most

likely start as a Dap on ethereum then you become a roll app and then you go to Cosmos there's a very good possibility we are in the second part of that sequencing and it looks like the it's like why would you ever not want to sit where all these users are in ethereum and and et cetera et cetera there's not really a logical reason why ethereum should have distribution to me I we might just be at this part of the sequencing where most Roll-Ups are like oh we want to still want to stay within the fold here and not go too far out but all it would take is two or three adapts with real product Market fit to say yeah it's a no-brainer for me to own this full stack myself and I don't need distribution I've got a ton of distribution what I need is perfect

granularity over my app space and then you could see Cosmos that could be a real Boon so yeah it's interesting yeah I think maybe just touching on the alignment Point um I think it's a an effective GTM strategy yeah right yeah op has piggybacked on you know alignment with ethereum to get you know support from all the ethereum leaders and positive sentiment and then you know optimism is known as like scaling for ethereum and then you have a player like conduit who is the roll-up as a service provider that has aligned itself with optimism right but at the end of the day both like if it's so conduit it says like you know I'm op and by default I am you know ethereum oriented and then they also

could at a certain point you know be the top of the funnel for these roll-up Frameworks and then break alignment by saying okay we're going to give you the stack that makes the most sense for your um for your application and to your point maybe you don't need premium da so we're going to actually Point Your da solution to Celestia um maybe you want like something that is extra extraordinarily High throughput maybe we'll give you you know use this ZK you know framework or something like that um and so the alignment thing I think is more of like a kind of a trojan horse strategy which allows you to get the distribution um it's unclear who's going to get that

whether it's the roll-up Frameworks right because then they can do the same thing as well it's like like op is agnostic to the DA layer um even though it's very aligned with ethereum and so yeah I think that that's that's one potential outcome um is you know this is alignment is really just powerful for for uh for early like go to market purposes before you know and then once you own the distribution then you can decide like you basically use your own brand as a shilling Point instead of piggybacking on something else um yeah and then just to touch on the Spectrum piece yeah I think I think that's right I wouldn't say that I've always thought about that spectrum and

then I wouldn't say that we're like in a certain stage of it I would say that the Spectrum will always exist and it's going to be more of a sequencing thing uh where yes the cheapest way to stand up your app when you have like an MVP is on a general purpose roll-up right and then if you get lots of users you find product Market fit and you figure out you know we can make a better product and get even more users by like owning more of the stack so let's move to our own roll up right and then at that point I have enough users that they come with us to our own roll up we try to make that migration as frictional as possible and then once you get to the very top of

the pyramid there's probably you know uh I could see like one outcome where it's only really the largest apps that have the leverage and the desire to move to their full like full stack app chain um well what is the largest I mean largely today dydx right right dydx says okay I have a ton of users already these users are coming to use dydx not because of ethereum but because of our app right so the chilling point is dydx now what do I need to do to make DUI DX a finished product or a better product well the way that we do our order book

matching system right now is extraordinarily centralized and that is not what I you know what we look at is like the the end game for dydx okay how do we do that let me gotta have on the whole stack right but how many actually get up to that top of the you know pyramid well largest largest is a relative so largest could is relative term dydx has a lot of users compared to other apps in crypto but it actually might be an absolute number you know it like you it might instead of it being oh only the couple largest will do this oh okay yeah there might be a there might be hey after we have five million users which right right Lord hope we get to a point where there are many crypto apps with that many users yeah right then you know

then so anything so stuff that would be considered large today but in the future it might be relatively small yeah and and I think we're agreeing by the way I I also think and you've seen different apps start as just apps some have gone right to full stack app chain from the beginning like osmosis and some have opted for this roll app sort of architecture but I do think there's a natural you know sequencing of you start here maybe your adapt for 12 to 18 months before you get your product Market fit then you need get your own block space and then um and then you go do your real you own the whole stack the other thing the last thing because I do want to get into Pepsi here is I've started to maybe think you and I used to talk about uh the premium on app

specific block space but maybe there's another shade in between General block space and app specific block space which is sort of sector-specific block space and this whole law of chains thing and even talking to some of the rollup as a service providers is you probably don't aren't going to have infinite different blockchains all with tiny little different customizations there is definitely from the business model of a rasp provider you want to standardize some stuff and maybe what you say is there are you know 10 different parameters for different chains maybe block size is a really big one and let's say eighty percent of D5 use cases want for

instance shorter block times something like that and you kind of create this standard you know off-the-shelf thing which will fill most of the use cases for 80 of the chains and the economics end up looking a lot better so maybe there's kind of totally generalized block space like Solana or ethereum sector-specific you know Ras designed hey this is sort of what our out of the box D5 sequencer looks like and block time that we recommend and all of that stuff and then maybe there's again for the apps with pmf or Cosmos uh full Stacks completely customizable where you know you get to the Facebook level of like different shades of blue you know uh for the icon once it touches on like

just how um abundant can we make block space I think there's a prevailing kind of belief today that if your application does not you know involve transferring value then it's probably not worth having it on your own chain or even worth being on chain in the first place because transacting on blockchains today is just inherently expensive um but how do we basically drive down that cost of block space as much as possible to open up you know more non-financial applications where it actually makes sense to launch on a blockchain so that's one is how cheap can we get Block space for non-financial applications versus you know what applications will actually want some

sort of valuable block space because the value being transferred there is significant and you know a decentralized block space is usually more expensive um so that that's one piece and then yeah I think just just quickly like there I've been thinking a lot I guess I came from the mindset that as much customization as possible uh is you know why the hell wouldn't you want that like there's this this is this is great like you can optimize every little bit and piece for the application um I've started to come around on the idea that you know there are significant Network effects to standardization of maybe more than just like IBC that we see in Cosmos

um that relates to just all of this like infrastructure services that a blockchain needs to be production ready um it's a real pain in the ass when you have some things like very customized then you go to a service provider and they say uh this is going to be a significant investment for us rather than you just doing some sort of self-serve like you know checkout basically because you're already something that they support so yeah I think we'll start to see and like op law of chains you know the super chain I think that's one end of the spectrum I think like the the amount of you know sovereignty and customization in Cosmos is the other end of the spectrum and it's just something to pay attention to yeah and also just

to defend ethereum a little bit here because I feel like I've been being a little bit harsh about that the Roll-Ups is you know when people attack the fees on ethereum uh I tend to be in the camp that high fees mean there's Demand on this space and I it's kind of like New York New York's expensive and the rent is high and everyone's been complaining about it from the dawn of time and they're going to be complaining about it until the end of time when everyone still lives here so I don't know I I'm empathetic to the idea that lowering the cost of transactions will open entirely new things you can do on chain that are impossible today you're you're if you're

designing it on ethereum you're coming from a very constrained perspective but on the other hand there's a reason you know it's the king so um uh yeah and I that part of the reason also sometimes I try to poke in ethereum is can't help but root for The Underdogs too you know everyone loves an Underdog Story all right let's let's talk a little bit about Pepsi barnabay uh put together so he's been talking about this for a little while and I'm I'm I was really glad to hear the way that he was discussing it because he explicitly in this in this outline for Pepsi talked about it within the context of Miles some of the stuff that you and I brought up the other day which was its relation to eigenlayer and ABCI plus plus and he he talked about it within

the context of suave as well and how it sort of relates there but the the idea at a very high level is Pepsi stands for protocol and for enforce proposer commitments and it kind of is what it sounds like it's the ability for proposers to make uh credible commitments on chains so there would be some sort of enshrined mechanism which would allow proposers to extend especially within the the context of the PBS you know part of Pepsi um you know it would allow proposers to make more credible commitments ahead of time to builders that if the validity conditions weren't satisfied then you

know the block would would ultimately not be valid and again to like really zoom out at a high level the way that I think about this is you know even when you you kind of look at different blockchains most of the big differences from between ethereum and uh Solana and Cosmos is variations on what you think the role of the validator should be like what you think a validator should ultimately look like how many of them are there how expensive are they to run and what should their responsibilities be and each blockchain has a very different idea to be very Broad in in over General um ethereum has taken the perspective of trying to make validators dumb and

commoditized which as a design decision I find pretty elegant because you've separated you you can then kind of have these very cheap uh kind of dumb unsophisticated validators which means you can have more of them and they can be individuals instead of professional corporations which is great and then you've separated out the more complex role the Builder which is actually building the blocks then on Solana they come at it from the perspective that it's unlikely that we're going to have 10 million people out there running a Raspberry Pi in the woods and it's probably actually fine for there to be ten thousand uh you know slightly more expensive validators that are run out of data centers and then Cosmos

it comes from the perspective of it's the opposite right so it's what can your validator do for you they should do more than just consensus level stuff they should run the code of the application because the the implied idea is that their app specific block space so that's kind of where we're going to get into ABCI plus plus but now I think that folks in ethereum are roughly contending with the idea that there are going to be big centralized Builders um you know that's the reason why proposal Builder separation has been settled out say well maybe actually it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if proposers had a little bit more power here and they could uh commit to things um you know in advance that if if those conditions aren't satisfied then then it

won't be uh yeah maybe they should be able to do a little bit more right it's this is this is the way it's similar to eigenlayer which is all right if you know validators are these dumb commoditized things but what what eigenlayer says if you opt into additional slashing conditions you should be able to do more stuff and Pepsi is sort of a version of that as well so super interesting um you know I think to your point uh ethereum has really prioritized um making you know the role of the validator as accessible as possible um and as as dumb as possible um and the trade-off associated with that at is that you end up pushing a lot

of the most you know com complex but critical functions this is like you know hosting Mev boost auctions uh uses liquid staking this is restaking you push it like out of the protocol and it does not give you any ability to be opinionated about how you know what's healthy and what's not healthy um and that is understandable because ethereum has you know is the most general purpose base layer you can imagine right it's supposed to be able to host and like and stay completely neutral to whatever is being built on top um in Cosmos it's very straightforward you have 150 say 200 Max validators all of

them are securing and operating the chain that hosts a single application and so if you want to say if you have the ability to do additional work um in the consensus process that makes the application better or allows the application to accrue more value it's kind of easy to get everybody aligned and say okay today we're just you know you've got a very vanilla job you're just you know like proposing blocks and everybody off everybody else is signing off on it um but hey like the application relies on this really you know uh I would say like maybe it's a um you have a critical dependency on an

external Oracle and we don't like that you know regardless of everything going well at the consensus level the application can break because we're relying on this third party Oracle so let's have all the app you know validators apart from just you know doing what they were already doing also submit Oracle prices that the application will use that way our Oracle is as secure as the chain itself right or Let's do let's submit an oracle price let's host a top of block auction we can do that all on chain and let's you know rearrange some transactions so maybe like the Oracle transaction comes first so it's you know fresh for every block it's very easy when it's all you know

everybody's aligning around one application um on ethereum I think you know it's the polar opposite situation but they have now come around in this idea of hey we do need to be a little bit more opinionated at the protocol level but how do we do this in an elegant way um how do we make it so that we're not being you know opinionated about any one application and we're not like forcing every single validator to do this work we want it still to be you know if you want to not opt into any of this additional work and run a Raspberry Pi with you know limited complexity like that's still possible right um and so Pepsi is trying to say okay what are like a few jobs that validators could host or opt into these commitments

that are so generalized and so you know utilized by so many applications that it would make Financial sense for them to opt in um and this is not things like you know we're going to stand up a side note to validate on Cosmos chain which is like what eigenlayer could enable this is not things you know that are specific to any one application um and I think that's where eigenlayer comes in but it's saying how do we make some of the most critical functions that is either facilitated by off-chain agreements that you know like PBS today or facilitated by eigenlayer today more controlled in and done in a safer way because it's being pulled into the protocol um and so yeah I was just really

interested because I've been thinking about Pepsi and thinking about ABC I plus plus a lot on Cosmos and finally now seeing you know this list of bullets that kind of gives me a much better idea around the certain use cases that that fit those parameters and those constraints of of additional work that it would make sense to you know give up validators the choice to opt into and you can see like why these you know are they're so generalized and would be used by so many applications that you know it it could be similar to Mev boost where like all of these things are just no-brainer stopped into right so the reason there have been sort of two different discussions here so Pepsi relates to uh PBS because it's kind of a generalized implementation of

of PBS which is we were discussing before that the implementation that the spec of epbs matters and like a really good exam sample of that is in Mev boost you cannot do partial block construction because the entire mechanism depends on Builders sending along the block header just the block header across a relay and then that gets connected to a proposer they sign it and then the payload gets released right slightly simplified version there so because you're only sending along the header you can't you know fundamental to the design is you can't actually do partial block block building where you know one Builder builds a little bit of a block the other Builder builds a little bit like the

other part of the block and then a validator collects it so really what this it's a more General sort of implementation of this idea that proposers can make commitments and then um you know what what Barnaby advocated for is that kind of this incremental implementation of something like Pepsi where full on Pepsi looks something like eigenlayer maybe in the meantime we can just try this as a sort of a hook that will allow proposers only to make commitments to builders around kind of the block building sort of activity so you're taking something that was totally off chain before and ethereum didn't really have an opinion on and actually enshrining it within the protocol and yeah I found this list very useful of you know some of the use cases so you can still do a full block auction like

is is the case right now you can do partial block auctions you can do parallel block auctions and actually um this is where you can maybe divide up like a so you can imagine a case where a proposer divides up you could segment the block space into top of block option and then the rest of the block now you know we know that top of block auction is actually a very valuable uh there's a lot of Mev that can get extracted that way so this is probably a more efficient and granular way to price different Mev opportunities which I find pretty interesting there was some other stuff here that I hadn't even necessarily thought about so future slot auctions so again something I just didn't know but you can look up the schedule of

different proposers um I guess two epochs away so what you could eventually end up doing is selling your future block space um so you can kind of create this new Financial architecture and it's just you know what essentially what the way I kind of think about it is Pepsi is putting more explicit rules around the marketplace whenever you do that you first of all you're actually strengthening trust so you can kind of lower costs but then because people trust these mechanisms you can do things that would have been impossible before so there's kind of this Cambrian explosion of different things that you can do around Meb so maybe it's the creation of new financial instruments maybe it's um you know uh you know maybe it's uh yeah

whatever it is or different types of auctions that you can run or different pricing structures that simply wouldn't have been possible before um the other thing that you could do the way I could see this being sort of a useful check against large centralized Builders as well is proposers would have the ability to commit either to a specific hash so the amount that a builder you know is offering them and then that actually gives the Builder more optionality because they're only committing to amount so in the time after they've you know they've had that header committed to them they can wait a little bit and aggregate a little bit more information and as long as the state output is the same you know they can potentially craft and even

um an even more valuable block but the other thing that proposers are capable of doing is they can point they can commit to a certain Builder without knowing the contents of the block so like let's say there was a situation where you know we let these Builder games just play out very centralizing right so the you know the big hedge funds of the world are making you know two hedge funds are making 70 of the blocks the proposers could take some sort of stance and say I actually really want to use a decentralized block Builder like Suave or something like that where we're less worried about the centralization concerns and I'm just going to commit to only building you know uh validating blocks that are proposed by swaff the Builder that's fascinating I mean I I

definitely thought of you know the intense space and and Suave whether you want to call it you know and building in the intent space or not as as a big part of this um because you basically have to it gives Builders who are going to be the solvers for a lot of these you know intense applications more guarantees around that you know the fact that they can make commit basically give solve whatever the user wants and also you know be profitable on the other end because they're you know a transaction is going to get included under XYZ conditions um you know I think the this idea of buying Futures block space is also super

interesting um yeah you know this is an idea that first came out of I think the atom 2.0 white paper um I'm thinking about you know let's not it's not a an auction that's being held for this specific block but it's saying you know in N Plus in end blocks right I want yeah I want to basically buy the right to have top of block or the full block now um and that way I can kind of guarantee you know that that whatever I've like whatever risk I've taken on for some sort of aggregation play can be settled on chain um or you can even think about it like even more like I guess straightforward it's like an nft mint right some of these things get absolutely insane right

and and you could have like a team that buys block space you know for the top of block to like aggregate all of these transactions that have been have been made or like one big like mint transaction or something like that um so there are definitely some interesting like ways that this will play into the product side and how products can now you know potentially do some more interesting things in their in their back ends in order because they have these you know guarantees and this flexibility with block building um but yeah I think it's super interesting the especially this Venn diagram of you know what falls into something that should be you know an eigenlayer job uh that's not had the protocol is not really aware of what

what makes sense for Pepsi and what makes sense for Pure PBS um and yeah I think I think the big question is you know how much demand is there going to be on on the more exotic stuff that is more application specific um you know how many validators are going to want to run and do additional work that is more application specific rather than you know just uh something that's like block building is so generalized right and you can understand understand why the opt-in percentage would be extremely high there the question that I have is even in terms of pricing Mev like so proposers now have the ability to segment out block space into top of Block versus rest of block thing is I would imagine there's an asymmetry in

between the amount of knowledge that Builders have versus what your average self-staker has in terms of pricing for a top of Block versus rest of block kind of opportunities you see what I'm saying like they the builders would be the ones who are aware of what that block space is worth as opposed to this kind of divided you know set of distributed validators so I actually sort of walked away wondering how they're that's they're going to solve that issue here it seems like the opportunity for a service provider to come in and yeah all of all this complexity for them I mean it might actually be something that could just be solved with transparency I mean all this stuff is happening on chain right I mean you should be able to

see unless I'm totally mistaken in terms of how this would actually work what you know the sort of price discrepancies in between top of Block versus rest of block maybe opportunities yeah right shouldn't you be able to get that oh it's the the sophisticated a lot of sophisticated tools I think um yeah but but not you know not anything else at the disposal of a solo self-staker um they could you know get paid 10 eth and be very very happy even though turns out like that block could have been worth 100 and still profitable to the builders right um yeah I I haven't actually thought about that side you know too much but um yeah I think there's there's

definitely there's definitely a lot of um it's a lot of open questions here about what this would look like um and just how incremental they wanted they want to go with this right um because do you just open up the floodgates after you do the initial PBS pilot and make you know the fully generalizable piece you know open to any sort of commitment um yeah I'm not exactly sure how that like plays with eips and actual like chain upgrades and you know how they intend to roll this out yeah on the Xerox research podcast actually did a little recap from ECC and one of the big things I kind of noticed was that enshrining is coming

back in Vogue and this wasn't a gen you know a genius observation for me it was vitalik actually LED with that on a slide on account abstraction because there's gonna need to be some amount of enshrining and probably you know so it's it's very it's easy to follow the logical train of thought right which is part of the value a huge part of the value of ethereum is being incredibly neutral layer and they wanting to avoid making these sorts of decisions that you would have to make for instance if you if you enshrined something like delegated proof of stake right because then they would have to have an opinion on which validators to use Etc that feels pretty bad so they outsourced a whole bunch of very critical functions to the to the to the

protocol and now maybe now maybe now maybe the pendulum swung a little bit too far in that direction and they're swinging it back which is I feel like a totally reasonable set of decisions to make right right but they have to make it opt-in right because you don't want to screw over the little guy that has no idea what's going on or how to how to run yeah it's additional stuff um that that kind of feels fine to me you know yeah allow people to do this stuff make it opt-in give it the tooling make it easy yeah right yeah but I also think that's why there's probably still you know a huge need for like these you know like marketplaces like eigenlayer that make a lot of this you know setting up a lot easier you make like you know the ability to create new

commitments that you know validators could could end up opting into um like I think there's a lot of a lot of opportunity for like actually getting this out to the uh to the both you know the users the demand side people that would want these jobs done and make it easy for validators to opt in and out um I think coinbase earnings might have just come out beat earning expectations report adjusted revenue of 708 million loss per share of 42 cents subscription Revenue clocked in at 335 million that's down seven percent on the quarter transaction Revenue came in at 327.

looking for their ebitda loss because they were they were guiding towards I think something like negative 550 on the year so you're saying you're saying the base the base revenues have not have not been reflected miles I don't think they've been kicked in yet but God you know if I had one wish just one I just want one of these analysts to ask Brian Armstrong about bald token on on the earnings call if I could just if I could only ask for one thing that would be that would be pretty excellent total transaction revenue is down quarter over quarter from 352 to 310 um on that's on the the consumer side of

things uh institutionals down a little bit from 22.3 to 17.1 uh so overall transaction revenue is down subscription and services we are down about we're again a little bit of a drop um so from 361.7 Million last quarter to 355 this quarter interestingly the interest income is down it looks like that is almost purely a reflection of interest income blockchain rewards is up from 7 73.7 to 87.6 that makes sense I think that's mostly staking rewards so that would be largely exposed to the price of eth

but yeah that's kind of interesting about the interest income I would have thought that that would continue to be up only but hmm so overall not not a bad not a bad result for for coinbase yeah yeah I don't have to think about why that might be the case um you know maybe it's the the revenue share with maker finally kicking in on some of the uh deposits but I I think it'll be interesting to see also where they bucket the base revenues um you know are those transaction revenues is that some sort of subscription Revenue um unclear to me but yeah I think you'd probably be blockchain rewards I would have to guess don't you think I guess so that's where

I would put it yeah no that's interesting um so I think it will be yeah we'll see just how quickly like some of the analysts pick up on you know the new product lines um and what we're paying attention to honestly uh it's usually it's quite a lag but there will be numbers that people are going to ask what what are those next quarter so um yeah we'll we'll see when we get there all right buddy this has been a uh a really fun one here um I love it yeah thanks for coming on chat next week