Crypto's SocialFi Moment, Fomo Raises $75M & The Rise of Collectables

Transcript

All right. Welcome to Bel Curve. Uh, I've never really done the opener, but we are we're here without our fear fearless leader. It's just Zave and I this week. Zave, how you doing, man? >> Doing well. Thank you, Miles. Always a pleasure to see you, mate. And yeah, feeling good having an episode without Mike. Time to really show our stripes and prove our colors. So, yeah, let's hope this one's a good one. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're feeling good. The battle of Bel Curve last week went pretty well for the US. Sorry about that. Um, but the but the the Socceroos, they're they're going to get through, you know.

>> Yeah, we were just chatting pre-podcast. I don't mind our chances. Got Paraguay tomorrow. US did us a favor. So, yeah, interestingly enough, I guess US beat both Paraguay and Australia by enough that we're a good chance. So, thanks, USA. As always, saving the day. >> Exactly. And um, fingers crossed for the Scots. Um, you know, I I love I I'll I'll be very upset if there's uh if they have to go home. Um, I love seeing the kilts around Boston, but uh >> Yeah, absolutely. My second team, Portugal, also doing decently. Ronaldo >> Love it.

>> two goals. So, only one interesting week left. And yeah, no, very very cool time to be in US right now, I think. And yeah, no, so Miles, I guess this week we've got a a podcast exploring, I guess, some of the things that are happening around collectibles and trading and sort of social, I guess, the classified we could call it, retail attention in crypto itself and and what's happening and and what's working and not. So, specifically this week we thought it might be interesting to dive deeper into sort of collectibles in particular, which some people on the crypto timeline have been very deep in in in more recent times.

And you know, like I find it quite interesting, actually, that this is doing very well in this crypto a bear market when not a lot actually is. So, Miles, you take take us through that in a second. Um and then yeah, after that I guess I'll take us through the the more social trading side, which is a side that I've looked at a lot personally and from an investment perspective, which it seems like FOMO was the frontrunner of right now on the more like consumer-facing side, trading without realizing it, and how they kind of both are similar products that both accessible for different reasons, but I think can show us something about where crypto is heading in the future. So, yeah, Miles, would love to hear.

>> Maybe just to add to that, like I think um on crypto Twitter, like our crypto Twitter, you don't see a lot of like um uh I don't know evidence of activity coming back. Um and yet we saw earlier this week, you know, FOMO raised 75 million Series B from S-tier investors, like the, you know, I think they have probably three of the top five venture firms in the world. Um And you hear a lot of sentiment like, "Do you know any FOMO traders? Like who are these people?" And like it's very real, right? Um and they have successfully like captured the attention of, let's say, net new uh retail channels and by bringing them

into the space through TikTok, through YouTube, right? And there's something different about these apps. And then, you know, I don't see a ton of activity on my newsfeed about the collectibles marketplaces, either. Uh tokenized card marketplaces, right? But you look at the charts and they're printing cash. Um like, you know, Collector Crypto did like 15 million dollars in the past uh 30 days. Now, these are not like profit numbers, we can get into that. Um and I've always just kind of like known that these this category of of app existed, but I never really got it. I didn't understand how it works. Um it's been pretty fun looking into to to both of these projects, and I think there's some like some commonalities

that we can draw and you know, like point to about like what's different about these apps and why they're working. Um So, that's kind of like the the broad premise for why we want to do the episode and so, yeah, we can dive into the the tokenized card marketplaces um first. So, you know, the the the leaders here are Collector Crypt, um this project called Courtyard, Beazy, and Fidgitalz. Those are probably the three that are um actually doing decent amounts of of revenue and and volume. Um and I guess what as I was going into like actually do some research cuz we did some research for this episode by the way, folks. Um I was like I I don't really get how these work. Like why would you if you

owned a really valuable card, why would you send it to some random crypto company to hold in like, you know, how do you trust them in the first place, right? So, maybe just starting off with like the supply side, which I think is is super interesting. Um it all makes a lot more sense than I thought. These These cards are um for the most part procured by like um partners who are basically professionals at acquiring these collectibles. They are not crypto people. Um and they, you know, send these cards to, let's say, like traditional vault

companies. So, literally like Brinks vault holds cash. Um you know, Fanatics has a ton of vaults. Uh there's a another one called like Professional Sports Authority Vaults, right? So, these are These are companies that have been around for a very long time. Um they custody all sorts of like collectibles. They um they they authenticate them, right? So, there's They basically outsource the trust to um these companies that already, you know, are trusted by by, you know, the collectibles industry like well way outside of crypto, right? Um And so, why are they like interesting and what are they how do they work

basically? Um the product is not like OpenSea. Um that's what I thought originally. Like this was just kind of like an NFT marketplace, but kind of weird and clunky because the NFTs are actually backed by like physical goods. Um this is more like I'd say uh you know um a StockX or like some sort of, you know, um a company that has like the, you know, official authenticated like um you know, marketplace of of of like let's say secondary goods. Um that and and combined with like a digital claw that

you would get in that you would see in like an arcade, right? Um meaning that you basically are there to buy packs. This is kind of like or maybe a better analogy that we're talking about is just like FIFA Ultimate Team, but but for packs, right? Um and so, the way it works is user will come in uh let's say uh the pack is $100. Um the uh the collectibles company has like a randomizer. Um and you get some, you know, assortment of of cards when you open the pack. And some of them could be worth very little, but you might get very lucky, right? And get like a card that's worth, you know, $500 uh the fair market value and you paid

$100 for the pack. Um and the marketplaces critically will always buy back your cards at, you know, let's say 85% of of fair value. So, that's like if you don't want to go to the actual like two-sided marketplace, right? Um you you always sell it back. And I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Blur, like that NFT marketplace back in the day, would do the same thing. Um and so the basically the the card companies, like I mean, sorry, the these these marketplaces will always make a spread, right? They're like acquiring um they're acquiring these cards at at fair market value.

Um you know, they allow people to buy them at fair market value, but if you want to get rid of them quickly, you can always just basically give it sell it back to them at 85% and then they can re-list it at, you know, the full 100% fair market value. Um so maybe yeah, I'll I'll pause there. Like, what did I miss? Um >> No, I think you explained that very well. I guess the left curve is like me on this subject. I find the best way to think about this very similar to like FIFA Ultimate Team, which I guess a lot of listeners would be familiar with listening to this podcast around you have a team and let's say you know, with Pokémon you have a bunch of cards and you know, you want to keep getting the best players in your team and all

the best cards in Pokémon and you know, some of us played Pokémon in Yu-Gi-Oh! growing up and you'd have this deck of cards, I guess, that you would use to play with other people. And to get better cards, they had these things called booster packs. I'm not sure what they're called these days, but I think the concept of the booster pack is essentially being applied within crypto itself. So everything that's happening kind of off-chain with cards and putting them together and maybe not newer cards, although I imagine there's also some newer cards also flowing in the system, but more like existing cards and sort of repackaging. So you kind of used to have these new booster packs and maybe new cards going into your old school card decks back in the day. Now I think there's a lot of cards already out there, especially in Pokémon, for

example, and these cards might be hard to access, very similar to like art and other kinds of NFTs that we've seen in the past, but I think collectibles are the first real version. And I think why is it actually working? I mean, this is another left curve take, but I wonder if it why it's working is cuz it's so close to home. I think a lot of people in crypto have probably traded cards in their life and they deeply understand how to trade cards and that whole it's kind of fun like {slash} gambling maybe at the same time, but it's kind of abstracted gambling, which I'm not sure if that's a concept or not, but it definitely feels like you know, when you open this pack for example, like you said Miles, you know, I think another thing worth mentioning in NFTs themselves, if you think

pre-collectibles what was happening with an NFT, you know, let's say you minted an NFT, which is very similar to I guess that kind of minting a pack of cards, you would receive an NFT and it would be typically hard to sell that NFT back if it was a bad NFT or not as valuable as the rest of them. And so there was a floor, a lowest price that someone would need to buy it from, you'd have to put it at the floor and then maybe someone would buy it. Here I think one of the innovations, let's say, of collectibles in crypto is just that financial fluidity and as well as liquidity around I guess the buyback in itself and how they're prepared to pay you 85% if you're not happy with the card and it also allows you to take more turns, honestly, if you think about it, around,

you know, can I keep going for the next pack and the next pack and then maybe they hit one and then they're happy with that card and they know the value of it, they think it will appreciate and then they want to go back to the next one and then maybe that that doesn't work. But like packs, you know? >> That's the whole point. Like the product is the pack opening. It's it's the the marketplace is kind of like the, you know, it's secondary to that initial hook, right? And without that hook, I don't think this, you know, we would be seeing this sort of like traction and demand and like Yeah, this is just um like we're going to talk about this later. It's it's it's like a dopamine kick, right? Uh it's addicting. Um and there is upside, right? Like if you get a good one. Um

and you remember like with FIFA Ultimate Team people would stream themselves like opening and getting like, you know, I don't know, Pelé or like Messi like like one of the like rarest ones, right? And then like every bit that's like that has real viral potential, right? Um and I think even now like I this takes it to a more extreme version of like the financial upside of that. Um like you could like you know, if you got Messi in FIFA Ultimate Team like you could sell it for FIFA coins, but you couldn't really, you know, I don't I don't could you redeem those? I can't remember if you could actually redeem those for real money.

>> I'm not sure if at some stage in more recent times you've been >> way, there's another there is a universe here where like FIFA Ultimate Team >> Oh. >> there's so much juice to squeeze and if you >> Uh absolutely. Tokenize the players. >> Um allow indie games to create like FIFA Street, you can like bring them to other games. I've got a lot of ideas for FIFA that I've always wanted to to to make happen and I know I understand it's not called FIFA anymore, but I'm old and that's that's what I will always call it. Um but yeah, no, the big the hook is that like I mean the point here is that there's um you know, a second component that is like the real driver of of demand um which is the this like fun viral thing,

right? And um you know, I was thinking like, okay, is anything about these like tokenized card marketplaces like what can we extrapolate about what's working here to like you know, more serious assets like art and you know, wine or like even real estate and there's not like a lot, frankly, like from from looking into it a little bit. I mean the model works best when the like physical assets are like very standardized, they're authenticated, easy to store, um like I mean it it just it would like the the part of these apps actually that aren't isn't working that well is the actual like secondary marketplace for serious

collectible traders and serious collectible owners who would like to sell, right? The percentage of I think selling back to the marketplace at 85% versus actually selling to, you know, another buyer on the marketplace at fair value, I think is pretty low. Um and that's because there's like very serious liquidity fragmentation issues um with these these sort of apps. I was like, is there a is there a way to like get, you know, create like an aggregator, right? Um cuz that's what typically you'd imagine imagine these like these different marketplaces are basically like same thing as AMMs on different blockchains or like, you know, there's

absolutely no way that they can be like swapped easily atomically one for one, especially considering that all of these are, you know, actually like custodied somewhere, right? And only each each like uh marketplace has, you know, s- full control and they're the only ones that actually like have access to to all the data that you would need as an aggregator. So like maybe I'm wrong about that because I haven't looked into it enough and maybe an aggregator will emerge, but um point being is that like the the the the volumes that we would see on like OpenSea like that sort of just peer-to-peer trading of these things is not that crazy. That's not and that's

not where the revenue's coming from. It's coming from um you know, pack opening and b- buybacks etc. etc. And uh last thing I'll say on this, um the if you look at the top-line revenue, not all top-line revenue uh is treated equal, right? Um I think we're we're we're in the revenue meta stage of crypto and we'll soon get to the profitability meta stage and like there are serious operating costs associated with um with with the tokenized card marketplaces. Like I don't would not imagine it's cheap to like have a large account at, you know, um of basically Fort Knox version of

like um collectibles vault in in Delaware or whatever it is, right? Um and the authentication of every card as it comes in in order to reach to in order to like actually, you know, enter the supply is not that's probably uh that's not cheap as well. Um on top of all the things that retail apps do just have to pay for like even when they're not you know, like outside of this like like the, you know, embedded wallet provider like the privy of the world and whatnot. Um So, I would uh and and that's also why I think the tokens So, like there's been a lot of people saying like, okay, these are doing well, but there's no value accrual to the tokens. Like we're looking at the revenue here. It's not

actually going to token holders. It's going, you know, for the most part to these uh I I believe to the to the equity companies. Um And this is just one of those examples where like you want uh for like the for everything to occur to the token, it's much more natural that all revenue occurs on chain, but it's also, you know, like you kind of need this the cost side of things to be on chain as well, right? And that's not feasible when, you know, your your your costs are like paying again like Brinks so you know, vault company um which takes ACH payments, you know. So, I think that's that's kind of the

challenge with these with these um businesses that have, you know, very very heavy off-chain components um but also want to have a token. And then people complain that the revenue doesn't go to the token. Well, you know, again, like well, as well enter the profitability era. Well, what about the cost side? Like that also should, you know, kind of hit the token in in some capacity. So, anyways, that's the last thing I'll say about this. Maybe we can >> Yeah, no, I think just before moving on, I think well said and perhaps more interestingly, if you zoom out a little bit here and look at sort of what's working, I mean, collectibles are one form of real-world asset. So, you know, we've explored real-world assets a little bit in this podcast

already. There's many real-world assets going live from stablecoins to tokenized funds, etc. You know, collectible cards are actually one form of real-world asset that's like actually working. And I guess you have to question like why it's working and you just went into it in detail there, Miles, around it's working because people are coming back repeatedly and they're finding value in doing something on chain which they can't actually do off chain. I think that's like really I'm not sure what it is. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, you can't get access to all these cards, you know, in some vault in the world in some way that is trust minimized that, you know, you can reliably expect that if you open something you can always give it back

that they'll give it back to you that that be people lining up outside the door. You can't actually do that in the physical world, hence why it's existing now in the digital world and blockchain technology makes the most sense for this. Really agree around all your other points around secondary marketplaces, uh, most of the revenue being in the pack openings itself. I think if you zoom out, there's two things happening there as well. On the secondary market side, if you look at a lot of real-world assets right now, even outside collectibles, there's actually not much secondary marketplace trading happening like full stop. And I think some people on Solana in particular, which is very focused on trading, they kind of make the point that like if you tokenize something and bring it on chain, that's not enough actually. Like the next thing is price discovery and you get that with

liquidity and trading etc. and good exchange, which I think for the most part these real assets outside of collectibles haven't got. And also in collectibles it with long-term holding it also not there yet. So like I think price discovery of these collectibles themselves isn't happening on chain. Obviously that is the goal and and maybe the asset class grows enough where that will happen on chain eventually. But right now as you rightly said, it's very focused on the pack opening, which also brings me and us to our next point of conversation around FOMO. FOMO's big raise. So of course FOMO raised this massive round as of this week. They raised $75 million as you mentioned Miles from some S-tier investors. It was a Series B fundraise

and I think it's relevant for our previous conversation because of what is it it is expressing I think to us as a sort of community of people in crypto around like where crypto's currently at actually. And so if you look at both the collectible card kind of community as well as like the social trading or like retail community let's say what it's showing you is that these apps are very successful right now because they're enabling and allowing new people outside of crypto to enter crypto for the first time without even realizing it essentially. And if you look at what's working in both collectibles as well as FOMO itself it's very similar to what works actually in today's social media.

The things that I'm not necessarily always pro about around like the addictive algorithms, you know, the suggested feeds, the recommendations, etc. reeling you in with a hook like Miles mentioned before. I think both FOMO and the collectible cards do this in different ways. Of course with collectible cards they do it with a pack opening itself. With FOMO to talk about FOMO for a little bit. So you know, I've been watching FOMO for a long time now. I've used it once quite a while back now. I imagine the product has improved quite significantly since then. But I think a lot of people in crypto there aren't many mega raises anymore. Like 4-5 years ago as we all know there used to be some mega raises in infrastructure. There was like a billion dollar valuation, 100 million raise, and it was like this mega chance

going live and there's a new ecosystem and new programming language. Like that simply does not happen anymore like whatsoever. Now where it happens is at the application layer. We've talked about this in the podcast before in the past and like why that actually is. When it comes to FOMO it's self and why we think they could have been successful. Well, as some people know, the team itself has a trading background. And so they've seen the way that people in particular in crypto trade and also the problems that we've we've experienced in crypto. They've also worked out that there's a market outside of crypto natives and they've targeted them very well similar to collectibles. And then they've then abstracted the whole experience. I think people really underestimate actually in crypto pre-AI it was actually really difficult to onboard new users into crypto cuz the

UX was so bad. In fact, I would still argue that crypto UX is like pretty heinous. Like no one really likes using crypto day-to-day that much because it's kind of painful and you kind of do it cuz you have to cuz the other benefits it gives you. But I think FOMO was one of the early teams in consumer in particular and on the retail side to really unlock a new way of using crypto without even realizing it and giving it a more social experience like overall. I think many investors as well have always thought as well as people inside crypto that social can be a category within crypto. I think FOMO is one good representation of what that could look like. I'm not sure if it's the end state. If you look at FOMO what's working and relate it back to what we're talking about before,

you know, a lot of what is working in FOMO is the feed itself and what keeps you coming back. So in collectibles as you were saying Miles, you open this pack, you see what you get, maybe it's really good, you make some money, and if you don't you get liquidity back, you go again, it keeps you coming back. With FOMO it's the feed itself, it's your social network, it's what people are they're what they're saying, what they're doing. You feel like it's literally in the name where if you're not on the platform, you feel like you're missing out. So, that's the whole idea of a consumer app is to hook you, have that variety baked in, and keep you coming back so it feels like you're actually missing something. Of course, the FOMO to work long-term, you'd hope that what people are missing are actually valuable enough where they keep

coming back and feel like they're missing something. Cuz of course, if no one's hitting anything, they're going to keep losing money and probably that can also work the Which I think by the way, Miles, curious to see your take here. I think that's one of the reasons one of the hard parts about consumer crypto is like so much of it is driven on making money for consumers, but actually realistically, most retail, at least for now, lose money. And can you help these people make money online? And so, FOMO really focuses on the on the copy trading part, of course, around, you know, Miles, you have a great take, write your thesis, I connect with you, I follow you, and I can copy trade it instantly without even realizing I'm using crypto. That's kind of cool, but I I I'm curious to hear your take, Miles,

on on the long-term state of of social and like where we're currently at with FOMO going live and being successful so far. >> Yeah, I am No, but I think it's it's super fascinating. I would like uh maybe zoom back to um a long time ago, even like like 20 years ago. Um so, like this concept of social investing is not new. Um there's been it's been tried like many, many times very unsuccessfully. Uh I was just looking at like the um Union Square Ventures blog who mentioned like in their FOMO announcement like, "We We invested in you know, this same type of company 20 years ago." It just you know, didn't work for a lot of

reasons. Um but like let's kind of speed run through like this this 20 years and why it's going to work now or why it is working now. Um So, I'd say like Robinhood, um it's two components. Robinhood um introduced the first one, which was creating like an almost gamified UX for for investing, right? Like they had the uh the confetti would go off uh when you'd make a trade. They gave you like, you know, uh access to like options, right? Where like the upside was massive uh and you could um you know, this is like very hard to get through Fidelity or something like that.

And this was like very, very much so targeting like 20 to 25-year-olds or like 18 to 25-year-olds and doing it really successfully. Um and then organically outside of Robinhood, we uh grew like a community of, let's say, these these young like not Wall Street traders, like true retail traders. This is like the Roaring Kitty, you know, is is a personification of this, right? With the GameStop um uh you know, movement, basically. Um and they were doing exactly what we see now, like they would they would post a thesis, they would post screenshots of their P&L, they would post screenshots of a chart. And then, you know, this is

all happening like kind of fragmented across like Reddit, YouTube, and then fast forward even more to like, you know, the past couple years, um the Gen Z, the Zoomers, like they have their own new crop of influencers, like trader influencers, right? Um on TikTok and YouTube. And they're always, you know, again, posting their theses with the little chart in the background. And like there's a very serious following here. Um and so FOMO's, I think, like really, really um smart insight was like "Okay, let's take the Robinhood like experience and UX. Um we'll add crypto, too, or start with crypto. Um and then let's pull in like basically consolidate

the social feed that is on TikTok and YouTube into the app, right? And let's go to those influencers um that people are following and say like okay, you guys um it's almost like a little bit of like what worked in friend tech a little bit, right? Like you want to go into the room with this person that you're following anyways and you want to see like you know, if makes you feel like a little bit closer like when you're in the app with them and you can you can copy trade and you know, just make it basically easy to do what people were doing anyways, which was following these people and then wanting to like copy the thesis like you know, basically. And then you create this newsfeed that's like you know, um

basically aggregating what would have been you know, the financial or the trader Tik Tok um into the app. And from here um you basically start with the hook of crypto and then you add stocks and then you add savings and then you basically try to compete with Robinhood um Zev, the last point you made is super interesting on like um okay, there's a kind of an issue with this longer term, right? Where like you are the hook is like to copy trade, it's more gambling than it's investing, right? What happens when you know, your your users just keep losing money. Um

and I would say like Robinhood has the same problem. Robinhood's goal and why Fidelity when I was there, we were so scared of them was that they get the young people, right? And if we lose market share with like millennials or Gen Z you know, all the AUM leadership that we have with the boomers you know, like all of that wealth is going to them, right? It's going to get redistributed and so fast forward 20, 25 years our market share looks way worse, right? At Fidelity than it did today with that older age group that has all the wealth.

Um and so the challenge is okay, if you are get the young people in with kind of like a gambling and a social hook, how do you make sure that like their behavior within the app can change over time such that you become, you know, where they send their direct deposits, uh where they have their 401k, where they do basically, you know, invest in money market funds and bonds and like boring like that, right? And then it's not clear that Robinhood's going to be able to figure out but they're trying very hard. You know, that That's why they have like a credit card and all these things, right?

Um and FOMO is basically doing the same playbook except they're coming after, you know, they're trying to compete with Robinhood's ability to get the 18-to-22-year-olds today. Whereas like Robinhood is crushing it with, you know, my generation in their 30s because like that's when they were the only player in town, right? So, that's kind of how I see this like, you know, the the the longer term, you know, all these things coming together and like FOMO, I think capitalizing on it super well. >> Yeah, and I think absolutely. Look, they've come from a place of people maybe underestimating how fast they'd grow. I think we haven't mentioned it in this podcast yet but they've got something like 600k users, you know, most of them are outside crypto itself. So, they've done a

phenomenal job at distribution and they're playing the same game as TikTok and X and Instagram. They've got a feed, they've got a social network. Look, if a social network actually works, especially with people outside of crypto and people really come back and you can't replicate the social network in an application which gives people access to trade anything, like a super app, like the opportunity there is of course quite large. My reservation with with this kind of application right now is like I feel like this play this sort of space is getting more competitive every day, not less. So, you saw Meta is going live now with their prediction markets, like sort of these ways of trading within large social media apps. I imagine X will come out with something as well speculating like I think social apps will come out with ways for their users

to trade. Then the question is like that social network inside FOMO, the retail people joining right now, is that actually enough? Like those trades that they currently need good traders as well. Maybe the types of trades they offer as well, like event-driven, narrative-driven, instead of just regular trading, which is what I think a good way that if I was building an app like this right now, you just spend time in Wall Street Bets on the Reddit forum and work out what they want and then give it to them. That's how Robinhood got started basically in the first place. I think Robinhood now is going down prediction market as well. It's interesting that Hyperliquid, you know, FOMO, they're all targeting similar things and that market is definitely growing. So that there is definitely space. But it would be interesting to see the series C of FOMO

in the next 600,000 users, who these people are, why they keep coming back, what the retention is, and how big the network effects are, cuz that's really what it comes down to. But you got to take your hats off to FOMO in terms of like they are the first purely crypto-native social app that's managed to break out into the mainstream. So >> And what One one thing that >> Like I I think part of the bull thesis and why they've like, you know, these these investors are signing on with that sort of like raise is like dude, this has been a terrible market. Like there is no like prices are straight down and they've managed to launch a retail trading app and scale it to a new user base of 600,000 while like literally all of the rest of what used

to be crypto retail is just depressed and sitting on their hands. Like that's that that means that like, you know, part of this is like, okay, yeah, like long-term we're going to compete with Robinhood and long-term this is going to be like a social network play as well. But like even in the near term, if the market comes back and we did this well when things were right? We got to 600,000 users. If the market comes back, that leg, that next 10x leg of of users to 6 million, like it's going to be a hell of a lot easier, right? Um so >> Absolutely. No, I think super interesting times and yeah, good to look at what's happening in the market from a positive perspective and clearly the return of this kind of retail

trading and optimism around trading different assets, putting on different trades, social network media slash also the gamification of some of this these things are coming back to crypto and I think the major incumbents are proving that they want these on the rails. So, it is a very exciting pocket of crypto, good to explore today with you Miles. Thanks for your time. Thanks to all the listeners and yeah, looking forward to speaking about the next topic at the next builder next week. >> Me too. Last thing I'll add, I mean, you have to have something other than the financial primitive. You can't just be like the perps market or like the new perps thing. You have to have something else, right? Um, and so that's what these guys have done well.

Um, and that's what's going to be required I think to be successful in this like, you know, the next crop of of of apps. So, like go figure out what goes viral. Um honestly, that's like this this is social fi, right? Like this is this is it happening. So, um >> Absolutely. >> Cool. >> Miles, thanks for your time, mate. Thanks for everyone listening. >> Thanks, Abe. See you guys. >> [music]