Crypto Meets TradFi: The New Convergence | Round Table

Transcript

So I think like you're seeing that institutional interest pick up not just like in sold the asset but actually institutional players launching their own products on the network which is almost better than just being interested in like buying soul as a speculator. like actually building on the chain as an institution showcases that they have the same amount of confidence they have in in Ethereum where most of the tokenized products and institutions see today. Nothing said on Zerx Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any

views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pacio, Ryan, and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. He's singing. Pocacho's feeling good today. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of ZeroX Research. I'm joined by Bach, Carlos, and Mark. Uh we got a full research crew today. Uh our our lovely Picachio is back to join us on a round table again. We always love to see that. Um, before we get into things, as always, we are constant shills for our events here. So, I want to give another quick reminder for permissionless coming up in the end of June, uh, June 24th through the 26th in New York. Um, lots

of conferences in New York this year. 0x10 is the code as always if you want to get tickets, 10% off. A bunch of us will be there. I know Picachio and I will be there. I don't know how many of the other team from the research team and Ox research um you know favorites will be there but we should have a pretty decent crew showing up. So if you want to come you know meet people from the around the industry chat with us um we'd love to meet you. So 0x10 Boach you want to say something? No that was it. I covered it. He's speechless. He is gawking at how good my shills have become. You did a great job man. We can uh we can get out of the shills. We can talk. Let's let's dive into the markets

a little bit. Um I'd love to get Mark laring a little bit on macro uh because he doesn't get the chance often and and we try to avoid that. But um you know, big news last week was like peak uncertainty. No one knows what the hell's going on. Like there's going to be massive tariffs and then all of a sudden it's like no, there aren't going to be massive tariffs or maybe there will. um they you know Trump and admin kind of pulled back on what they had been um headstrong on for you know the past month or so two months maybe um so now things are kind of up in the air it's like maybe there's exemp exemptions for certain things like chips electronics different specific industries or materials um though like this kind of battle with China still

seems ongoing or like TBD but at the very least like the markets have looked up like we've seen some excitement at least in our space like you know we Bitcoin was in the 70s and like now we're back you know mid 80s and you know alts and other things have seen you know a little bit of of room to breathe how are we thinking Mark what are your thoughts here yeah well I mean when the um I said the chaos ensued prices were down I mean I mean I've been in the crypto space for a little bit now so I just saw that as a buying opportunity but mostly for stocks um I got you know some of my Brazilian equities that I've had on my watch list for a while a bit cheaper than I'd like. So that that was good. I mean these things kind of don't

worry me when you know equities even BTC comes down. You know it's like the just fundamental support. You know there's this thing um past performance is not you know can be used as a good future indicator. Um you know I look at US markets and I just think the opposite. I just think like you want to hold the assets where the top 1% are. So I'm never like it's it's something I never panic about. But I mean what but one thing that was concerning was the bond market. Um uh it was was it April 2nd? April 2nd the there was an announcement I think or somewhere around there. And then for like no no company below um investment grade.

So investment grade is like companies that have a strong balance sheet able to pay back their debt and if you're below that you're considered junk or like non-investment grade like no non-investment grade company issued a bond in the market at all until like I think until like maybe this week. So that was actually kind of see like spreads really picked up high the treasury yield 10 years two years they all picked up high which is kind of the antithesis of what Trump and Bessant are trying to do. So I think the bond market was a little bit more worrying and that probably put more pressure on the administration than any other than like stocks or like I don't know like Main Street, you know, cuz you know main there's been nobody wants to oppose

President Trump right now. None of there's no like lawsuits against it. Like I think Main Street just wants to play by his rules, go along with it because that's the that's probably the best strategy and I think I agree with that. Even though some of the some of the smaller I don't know how to call them like trade in like I don't know groups have put some lawsuits and they think like judges will be the way to block these tariffs but this the on again off again with the tariffs um I just think it's great environment for traders. Um uh but yeah I think that's the TR there. Yeah, I also think like on the macro side, the other news is gold making new all-time highs. Um I think this morning uh I think we all bought the wrong uh digital gold. Should have

bought the physical but like and yeah um I think we're nearing like maybe a top there. Uh a lot of burps trading platforms are listing Pax G which is like the gold issued by Paxus. Uh I know Drift uh listed it like this week. Um so seeing a lot of like attention in that regard and just curious to how Bitcoin trades like in this environment where we're seeing outlooks from US equities into maybe European and Asian stocks and how ju just curious to see how BTC performs in like this like new new regime.

I think that's actually a really good point. I think sorry Danny but um tokenized gold were it hit a all-time high or like onchain $2 billion so that's a record and trading volumes last week or this week were $1 billion so I mean we haven't seen that and I think in some years um and you know it's probably it's I was looking at our new Ethereum dashboard today and it's the most traded tokenized thing on Ethereum so um I put a tweet out about it And I call it digital gold cuz now there's actually like a proper digital goal. Um no offense Bitcoin. But um yeah, I think that's a solid point and very interesting to see um like this this

wave of tokenization is is starting to ramp up on in different areas. Yeah, I'm just pulling up what you shared showing the tokenized gold. Um which is a great point. I I do think this is something that we're hearing a lot um maybe not about gold but like about these like inflation hedge assets again you know the week or two ago or maybe last week like the talk of the town very briefly was you know Bitcoin is decoupling from you know risk risk and equities um I don't know if that's really true but I am seeing more and more this sentiment of like I don't know fears of continued inflation and people are again bringing forward these ideas of like maybe you

should have some gold, maybe you should have some Bitcoin. Um, Bitcoin keeps kind of rearing its head in these conversations more at least more and more broadly than I think it ever has in the past. And and maybe part of that is just driven by like, you know, when you just look at it over the past couple years, it's a far different asset today than it was, you know, a few years ago. The market cap the market cap and the size has has uh expanded rapidly in the past few years. Um, the other thing that I find maybe interesting or worth pointing out as well when we think about what the market's thinking about is our friends over at Poly Market and this US recession in 2025. Maybe you're right, Carlos. I mean, who knows whether that was like um a short-term bottom or like

a top in terms of like fear, but at least in terms of what you know the poly market traders are saying on this one. Um there was like a bit of a peak in the in the worries for recession here um back you know a week ago or so. Um who knows maybe things could get worse from here. you know, I'm not an oracle, but uh we it is nice that we have more data and more markets that kind of like play into these different things and you know, they might not serve as signal or alpha, but at least being able to look at them after the fact and understand, you know, maybe at least how the market is pricing some of these things in it. It's funny, Danny, that chart that you just pulled up, it very closely mimics the icebond spread. Um, normally

they say a four maybe a 4.2% 2% is like we're going we're heading to a recession. Um last week it was last week it was 3% spread and now it's come back down to two. So 3% is like okay there's uh you know 66% chance 2% we're back at 50% chance. And I was like kind of like it's crazy how poly market like can mirror these things just through like just through just the masses. Yeah. Yeah, I mean they're playing at that that old saying or adaja that like people can uh you know the average sort of figures its way out to the rough true probability whether that's true or not

but at least you know we've seen that with the election that that seemed to be somewhat true at least in the way that you know people were spending their dollars and um I don't know we'll have to see whether this one turns out to be true or not we've got quite a few months left in the year um right now the odds are pricing in a recession occurring ing at least you know to a coin flip today. We'll see where that goes from here. Yeah, I mean the plant tested GDP now is forecasting minus 2% growth uh for this quarter and then a recession is like defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. So if we already have one and then the other like I would say 50% sounds about right.

But it begs the question does that mean we just you know this is like if it if it happens it would it wouldn't be it would be an eventdriven recession and then is is the question is is it a recession or is it a technical recession you know two quarters declining GDP and then up up only from that like I think I wish there was a poly market for that we might have to uh see if they get more specific but I think the big problem at least for poly market is just getting enough volume on even those markets alone to make them uh compelling. Um but we we are seeing more platforms adopt that like Robin Hood Robin Hood rolled out their event trading platform. Um there's some other platforms. I know you know Drift has had their sort of version of this as well um since since last year

since maybe around the time of the election as well. Um so that's becoming more popular. Maybe we'll see, you know, more of those markets start to flourish. This episode is brought to you by Ledger, the global leader in digital asset security. Celebrating 10 years of innovation, Ledger remains the most secure hardware wallet for your crypto and login. trusted by 7 million users and securing 20% of the world's digital assets. Follow the link in today's show notes to grab your ledger. Now, the other sort of thing that's kind of making its way through these different platforms now is Kraken announced their roll out of US equity trading. Um, so we're kind of seeing the reverse now where, you know, I think there's a lot of expectation for, you know, trady institutions and brokerages to offer

like crypto services. Now we're seeing the inverse where you know crypto focused um trading platforms are offering you know equities and like more brokerage like features which is interesting. I'm curious if you guys have any like big takeaways there. I know we've talked recently about this idea of like trading stocks on chain. I guess the big question is like does that matter if you know all these crypto platforms are going to offer their own you know equities trading and and other market trading just on their platforms alongside the crypto. Quick take. I think it's the same thing. We we talked about this before, but like to get access to equities. It's already relatively easy in the US and then maybe you're trying to branch into like a wider market like with crypto like young crypto holders

who maybe don't own any equities. Um but at the end of the day it's you know onchain I mean Kraken and stuff is still going to be limited to sitting markets for the US stocks whereas onchain I guess anybody around the world with a wallet can purchase these um like from packed or whatever can purchase these um chains. I think it's more like, you know, we and we a few weeks ago we also talked about um NASDAQ looking to go like 24/7 or 245 with their trading and I think just as as the demand for like 247 global access grows um you know it doesn't matter where you are you know you want like a seamless all-in-one trading app you know to have everything in one nice package so I think you know for Kraken and probably some of the

others it's um you know expanding into equities is like a natural step for And but I think it you know more excitingly it but it like paves the way for tokenized assets on that platform. So even though it might seem like oh these you know centralized exchanges are coming to eat the lunch of onchain equities they can actually be the gateway that opens up more tokenized assets to the masses. Yeah that's that's also my thing. I think um whenever sexist start doing something then I imagine that more and more deexes will focus on listing those assets on their I guess not listing because it's mostly

permissionless but for purpes listing for regular dexes it might just be that more pe more people want to tokenize it. Um I think you probably want to focus on I know we mentioned Crockett and I've historically said that Coinbase is slow. I think you probably want to focus on Coinbase in this scenario though. Um because they have base, I imagine they're going to try and onboard as many equities as they can and tech like on the technical side it makes sense. Um they hold a lot of the USDC for Coinbase on base. So it should like they I assume they already have a process for accounting and um ensuring that this

works out. So they it should be relatively um trivial for them to make this happen. If they actually do make it happen over the next year, we'll see. I like I said um they tend to take their time, but we'll see. For for me, the main takeaway is like the convergence between like fintech and crypto. Like there's been talk over the past year of Robin Hood competing with Coinbase and other crypto platforms. And I think these cements like this convergence where Robin Hood was like venturing into crypto more and more and now you see centralized exchanges venturing on the trapy side with stocks and ETFs and stuff like

that. So I think over time you will see both of these platforms kind of having the same offerings and competing on the same ground. Uh and my other takeaway is just what what what does this mean for platforms like backed finance who offer like tokenized stock like for instance backed offers tokenized coin on base like if coin bears if if Coinbase starts offering like tokenized coin like what does this mean for packed like do they still have an edge or like do they become like um like are their services no longer needed?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. It I think it's sort of the the question we have a lot about a lot of these like crossovers between like fintech or like centralized exchange versus like decentralized platforms is, you know, are they going to build it themselves and then just like kind of uproot the players who are kind of playing in the permissionless space right now. And it's I think it's kind of like hard to say because at least from what we're seeing with Coinbase and Bass, they're kind of experimenting on both sides, right? they're using Morpho for like Bitcoin lending, but that at the same time they're experime experimenting with unis swap v4 hooks for like permissioned pools and trading. So, uh it's hard to say, you know, they're they're using the some of that infrastructure like right now and like making use of uni and

morphos and other teams' work. Um, but I don't I don't know that the direction is clear at least in from like a both a permissionless list versus permissioned as well as like a, you know, are we actually going to use D5 versus like, you know, fork and co-opt it for ourselves. Maybe coin maybe Coinbase will, you know, reuse, you know, make use of of Uni's infra and um Morphos's infra and others and maybe Robin Hood will come in and just like build their own stuff, fork it all. Um and, you know, throw KYC up behind all of it.

Hard to say at this juncture, but we'll we'll see. We're kind of slowly seeing some of these pieces at least kind of trickle into place, which is prompting the questions. Um, yeah, just to add, sorry, Mark, you probably have something more important to say, but I'm gonna cut you off. Um, something to think about here is that like sexes move very very slowly and regulation moves even more slowly. So, there's probably some time for um I I know that all of it has been already happening, but there's no need to panic. Um, not everything's going to be forked overnight.

Yeah, I agree. I think like you said the regulatory aspect is going to be the the slowing factor versus the actual technology. Um but in that front I was going to say something with the blending of like the converging of um you know blockchains and the trify world. Um, something I learned this week is that um, in the US there's these um, heloc loans like um, home equity lines of credit and last year 20% of all of those loans were done on the blockchain. Well, specifically provenence and then that's through that's through you know figure markets but they you know they have like a white label product so there's many like different like distributors let's call them that. So like um but the and

you know these um these borrowers they don't know that they're using a you know blockchain in the back end you know not necessarily it's not it's all abstracted away from them right so like this is kind of an example I mean this has been years in the making and because again the right you know the regulatory approvals take some time and you know you have to get these things done right um but you know this is a good example of how this technology can make um you know accessing these kind of loans cheaper without anybody delving into any of the um complexities but you still having some form of like, you know, centralized um legal um like entity who's who's facilitating it.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. And then maybe to hammer home the regulatory front, like we've seen as well with Robin Hood and their attempts at rolling out um the event trading platform, you know, they got shot down initially by the CFTC, I want to say, when they tried to do um trading on Super Bowl outcomes, but now more recently, at least within the past month or two, um they've been able to do a a broader roll out of that platform. So, at the very least, we're starting to slowly see on some of these things. In this case, it's just prediction markets specifically, um, the regulatory gears are are turning a little bit. Um, paying attention to what's happening, it's like it's laying

out the threads for the future. We can kind of see some of these things start to start to form. Um maybe in a slightly different gear. Uh want to talk about I I think this is kind of a hot topic right now like Salana's sort of institutional mind share is becoming a bit of a like a a topic or a a thing that's happening. You know, there's conversations in um at least around potential ETFs um coming to the US. I it sounds like there may be some products in Canada and some other places already um that are live. And the other sort of shock um that we've seen in in traditional markets is Janover is taking basically

the micro strategy approach, right? They raised some money and then they bought some Salana. Um they've bought more since this announcement of 4.6 million. I think they've maybe doubled or tripled their buys, but I think they essentially raised something like 40 or 50 million with plans to invest a lot of it in this whole ecosystem and run a validator, things along those lines. Um, and so we're kind of maybe seeing like a sailor strategy but with soul sort of approach if that's the right way of thinking about it.

Um, I guess I'm cur like I'm curious you guys thoughts there's a lot of talk, it's funny, there's a lot of talk actually about ETH and Ethereum's like institutional mind share. All the institutions are going to come in and buy ETH because ETH is the best place to do things on chain. Um, but I find more and more that there's actually maybe a lot of interest on the institutional side for Salana or at least some of the conversations are popping up and and seeming that way. What are your thoughts there?

I mean, people want the coin that goes up. Like even institutions, that's really it. No, nobody wants to buy. Um I remember actually one of the one of the things that people kept pushing back in the day, um when ETH hadn't underperformed for this long was, oh, institutions are going to look at ETH and say, wow, this has a lot of catch up to catching up to do. um don't think that's been the case as you can tell by like ETF flows. Um and yeah, I think I mean these guys like I think we often obviously institutions have different forms of approaching investments but um at the end of the day they also have the same monkey brain that we have and they see a

chart that's going up or a price that's going up and they're interested more in that asset. Um, and when you're interested in an asset, I think we also realize this and I think a lot of people who are listening will also realize this is um, if a coin is going up and you become interested in it, then you read into it, you want to learn why it's the case. And I think that's why also like as Ethereum underperformed, um, everyone started talking about why it was underperforming. And then at that point it's almost like yes price is affected by causes but also like the causes are um constantly being repeated because of the price and then that

becomes kind of a flywheel. Um so I think like institutions also hear about that and they see it. Um, like yes, Larry Frink is going on television and saying Ethereum is where everything is going to be tokenized, but if he can earn the fees off of stable Salana, not stable coins, if he can earn the fees off of Salana, a Salan ETF, then like he'll change his tune immediately um or if he can make money off it because that's his job um is attracting capital into his products and if Solana is going to attract more capital then he'll go for that. So, I don't think there's ever been um I don't think that narrative is going to hold for much um

like the oh, we should have done Ethereum. We've seen that it hasn't held up. Um and I think unless they make a lot of changes, including to the price, then it's probably not going to change. People want to make money. Simple as that. I think not a great take, but no, I think I agree with Boach. I don't know why you would invest your treasury into Soul as a company. Um, but yeah, I have no no take on that. But I I've seen institutional interest picked up in Sena over the past few months for sure. Last month, uh, the CME debited soul futures, and that's like a prerequisite for a

potential, uh, ETF approval. We saw the same thing with BTC and ETH, uh, last year or two years ago. Um there's also like indications of institutional interest on chain like Black Rockck launched its B product on Sana. You've seen new stable coin issuers on the network. You've seen first digital uh the US global network that's uh like a consortium with Paxus, Robin Hood and other players also launch on Sena and they already have like a hundred million dollars uh of USDG on chain. So I think like you're seeing that institutional interest pick up not just like in sold the asset but actually

institutional players launching their own products on the network which is almost better than just being interested in like buying soul as a speculator. like actually building on the chain as an institution showcases that they have the same amount of confidence they have in in Ethereum where most of the tokenized products and institutions uh see today. Yeah, 100%. I think the CMA futures is a dead giveaway that ETFs incoming. I think Poly Market has the odds at like 80 85%. Um not that they were necessary but like with the current admin we kind of know it. Um I think I think institutions it's a weird question. I don't think I think instit

institutions are kind of using blockchains as pilots and as like distribution. Um you know I for the most of it they're very you know blockchain agnostic. I think you know securityize is the one who actually you know goes through the legal process and the technical process of tokenizing these assets and they're on like 12 chains like every chain has some like some real world assets on it you know even like ZK syncing polygontos all of them you know and you know it started off with stellar I think originally on Ethereum some of the the one the older blockchains and I guess from a sense of like security Lindy these have been around the longest they were relatively safe to launch on you know maybe yes some years ago Solana had outages problems but I think as the tech has evolved and the understanding

of these technologies has evolved with it there you know these institutions are feeling a lot more comfortable um tokenizing on on these chains and at the end of the day these are these are offchain liabilities. So if if Salana goes down again or if something else happens like it they still have a first ledger of records in some other digital ledger that's not a blockchain somewhere. So like those risks can also be mitigated to some extent and plus you know most of the buyers are in most of the buyers of like black rocks fund or I should say all are you know institutions themselves and they're they're KYCed so like these these settlements can happen offchain as well. So not a huge risk there. It's it's I'm you know again I'm

still looking for more when these when these assets are directly issued on on the blockchain as the primary and only point of ledger. um that's that's probably a bit more exciting and when some of these other like smart contract risks and and chain risks matter a bit more. Um but to go back on the um the soul strategies and the Genova side of things like it's yeah I mean obvious look look I mean soul strategies was the first one I heard of doing it and you know the name tells you they trying to very well mimic micro strategies which also changed their name which I don't like by the way strategies I don't I don't like it. Micro strategy is a lot more powerful brandwise I think but anyway I digress. Um I think I think

what's neat about these companies too because I was like reading some of their their filings and they are also going to be validators in the space whereas you know with Micro Strategy they just buy Bitcoin and hold it whereas you know Genova and soul strategies they can actually stake their soul and if they buy a lot they can be you know it's stake weighted um you know QoS so they can potentially be a meaningful validator in the ecosystem or you know not insignificant at least and through that they can earn income um earn a yield from that. So that's like a proper business line and then you know who knows maybe we see them expanding into like client development or like um investing in you know like applications

on the on on the chain you know things to help build it out. Even even Michael Sailor has said that they're they're starting to look at Bitcoin infrastructure plays to help support like you know payment rails or Bitcoin or whatever it may be lending whatever. I'm not really you know I'm not priv I'm not in those rooms but like we're seeing it being more than just a treasury asset. Yeah I think that's a great takeaway Mark. Um it it would be interesting to see and and it makes sense, right? It would be in your interests, especially if you're Michael Sailor, for example, you know, you own or strategy owns a massive portion. It's like 2.5% of Bitcoin supply now. I want to say some massive amount. So yeah, I mean at some point you you then want to

further invest to ensure you know that this um you know this asset or this network that you're so heavily you know tied to uh has some lifeblood running through it in the future. So yeah, just makes sense. They're they're aligning themselves in every way possible. Um so yeah, it would it would be expected if we see some of that from some of these sole strategy based teams as well. Um something to look out for though if uh they raise a ton of money and then use that to invest in particular apps or parts of the ecosystem that might be something to uh keep your eyes on.

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prompt token launched. This is I want to say more of a discussion about Kaiito and their sort of product at this point, but Wfinder did um I I'll call it a YAP drop, but basically allocated some portion of the supply to emerging yappers on the platform. And I think the only stipulation was that you just had to log into the wayfinder um application and connect with your Twitter account or your wallet that is connected to your like Kaido yap account. Um and if you were on that list of yappers, you you got some portion of this. Um, I think the bigger question that this prompts for me is like, you know, the commentary

that I see around Kaio right now is, you know, people's just sort of making fun of the idea of like, yeah, like let's just let's just give all the slop printers and like Twitter farmers like more free money. I I don't know that it's like necessarily more free money. And maybe that's the the the question that it boils down to. You know, previously I think a lot of these like thread orses and people writing about certain things like maybe they're being paid under the table and you don't really know that and you just kind of scroll the timeline and you see what's being talked about and you just kind of have to guess like is this guy a paid shill or did he like think of this himself? Um you don't really know that.

I guess at the very least with Kaido they're they're drawing some definitive link there where you know you sign up with your Twitter account tie your wallet to it and you can see who's getting paid for you know the type of content that they're putting out. Um, I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are. They they dropped an announcement the other day with a ton more details. Let me pull this up. What do we feel about the Kaito model? Like, what are you guys thoughts? Big thoughts, small thoughts. I just want to know what we think about it. I'll I got both of the airrops. So, I got both the Kaido Yaps airdrop as well as the Wayfinder airdrop.

Um, I think I overall staked um, Prime for probably a total of 90 days. Um, or maybe a little bit longer, but in different. So, you could max lock it. I didn't max lock it. Um, I thought that was stupid. Um, I just locked it in like 30-day increments or like a little bit higher. So, I got a better multiple based on my There was a spreadsheet going around. I just used whatever the like the shortest thing on that that made money was. Um and I did not make money. Um not only did Prime go down um higher than when I bought it, just FYI, but um still lost money on it overall.

And the airdrop that I got was 25 times less than what I got for my um Kaido airdrop. And I I think I've tweeted about way I I tweeted about Prime twice definitely. Um maybe three or four times actually. Um, but I think that speaks to a different thing which is the entire point of an airdrop is to incentivize certain behaviors. Like that's why we have a lot of these token emissions programs as well as like these airdrop programs is um like liquidity mining is clearly to incentivize liquidity. Um, airdrops are to incentivize people to use your chain um or your product um before like you're making them lab rats to potentially get hacked to, you know,

deposit some form of money for something. I don't know what they use it for, but anyway, there is something that you expect from the users to do to get money. Um, and that's historically been like the social contract between the user and the developer. And if the developer around, the user gets really angry. Um, Kaio kind of changes this because you don't really have to do anything. You just need to tweet and you need to have enough followers when you tweet. That's the only thing. And you need to sign up for the platform. Um I don't know how beneficial this is for projects and I think this is something that is different in like in crypto there's this very clear um different type of team um and in that

team there are marketing and BD people and growth people and I think those people generally approach um crypto in a different way than you and I approach it in which they very much want to boost up like it's their job. They want to get as much eyes on the project as possible and typically this means a like random partnerships um kao leaderboards etc etc and it's not exactly I think what you want to incentivize first of all and like you have to think how much of that is useful like are you going to reward the people who tweet or you I'm very happy because they rewarded me I got free money I'm you know fantastic but um like do you want to reward those people just because

that's like the marketing mindset of saying we need to get as many eyes on our protocol as possible and to do that we need to give a percent of our token to Kaido so that we can be on their leaderboard or is it um is it to I don't know do something else like there's a million ways to airdrop on top of that you can also do coin sales token sales that's something that we're doing echolleion etc um so that's what that's like my big takeaway is there's clear like shift in how things are done. And I'm not sure if it's the best way to do it because the token is technically the best tool that you have as a project to incentivize certain usage. Um like it's our form of

what um traditional apps got with like gamification. We have it with the token and the token is 100x more powerful because it's direct financial alignment. Um, so I wonder if they're kind of wasting their juice on on some like social media engagement that some marketing person came up with and said we should give this out versus like um if there's actually better ways to use it. That's my uh personal opinion. I'm kind of upset um clearly because I didn't get the airdrop that I wanted from the tokens um locked. I honestly 25x less is ridiculous um for staking money and then not receiving it. I know this sort of reminds me to

the NFD airdrop meta where projects used to reward certain NFD communities with airdrops without really doing anything for the project. I know Athena for instance or dropped me lady. I remember mad lads got a lot of allocations from soul uh projects. I remember bad kids also got allocations from random projects. And at the end of the day I don't know how beneficial it is as a project to just airdrop to these random communities.

Um like box said it's like a marketing play. You see on Twitter people tweeting about the project thanking them for the airdrop. But I think most of these people will just end up dumping those tokens just because they have no financial incentive or skin in the game and they are aren't real users of like the project. So even though you might get a little bit of attention like in the short term, long term I think it's not beneficial for the project just to give away your tokens to randos uh just for a few like apps online. Yeah. And just to add to that, um, like people who farm airdrops or people who get airdrops do sell it as

well, obviously. So it's not just like a Y app, but but the social contract is that if you're a project and you can boast metrics based on user activity, you can raise on it and then like you you have a responsibility. I mean, we've decided that you have responsibility. We can get more into the should people be giving out equity this easily like tokens this easily or not. That's a whole different discussion. But in the current way that things stand, when somebody uses your chain, you aird drop to them.

Um you're going against that which isn't fantastic is um even though they might dump, they have the right to dump, they they let you raise more money. You need to let them dump it. Yeah, I I think those are fair points. I'll say uh Ian from Chyros, he kind of gave a similar opinion at least in the short term that you would just expect a ton of you know cheap talk people just you know scheming the system of I just need to mention you know positive words in relation to this project on Twitter and then I'll get paid for it. Um I I guess the question is like if they can really align the activity and like via AI understand if that engagement is real

or not. I think that's kind of an open question. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. I don't know that it would be possible to figure out if someone's words are genuine or not. I think it's pretty easy to just be like fakeely shilling something that you don't actually care care about. Um maybe the bigger thing is like you know some of the the pieces of this like change to their system that they announce are um having assigned YAPs from from a Yapper leaderboard, but then also assigned staked Kaido um which rewards you with some token reward sharing um in relation to like a specific project and then Kaido Genesis NFTts that add multiplier effects. So, you know, maybe there's a leg to stand

on here in terms of like if you get the people who are staking their Kaido, engaging with this thing, like I don't know. I guess you would assume it's to some level of gen, you know, genuiness if they didn't just like dump all their Kaido at launch and, you know, they continue to interact with these things. But um at the end of the day, it it feels like it's, you know, not too much different than um just just giving away funds to people who mention your thing in a tweet. Um which is free to do. You know, any one of us could could spit out 10 tweets right now about 10 different projects. And if that gets us an airdrop in the future, you know, we didn't really do anything or bring anything to that project in exchange for that. So yeah, the I think realistically they'll

definitely have to work harder to like, you know, add caveats to this and like really build out a a system to make sure that it's not just like this free gimme for anybody who tweets about anything. I guess we can talk about like we can talk about what productive um user activity is and like staking tokens versus tweeting about it. there there's two different takes there like are is staking tokens in a contract just to earn some yield um not being used by the way this isn't like provided as liquidity this is just staked that's not more useful technically than like sending out tweets um you are locking up

capital but you're not actually like it's inactive useless capital there's nothing being unless the team is using that by something to I guess earn yield on it like the way that who the blast did it that way. I I mean they captured yield I assume a little bit like that was different versus um what prime prompt wayfinder did. So maybe tweets are worth more there. It's like it it makes more sense to reward people who are getting you in front of the timeline. I mean they're both useless. Um like you said, people are just going to game it. It's just 10 tweets. Uh it's nothing. But we'll see.

It can't be fixed. This is like just needs to die out the way that the NFT thing died out like Carlos mentioned. Yeah. Like what Bach was saying like what is more what is more beneficial like staking or tweeting about the project. I don't know. I'm not I'm not going to like opine on that right now, but I think that's that was kind of the biggest thing. I wasn't involved in this, but this is kind of the biggest thing I saw in my timeline for a lot of the hate. like people who bought the token, staked it, locked it up for x amount of time, ended up getting less um rewards than um you know, somebody who was just tweeting about it. And you know, I think it's hard, you know, managing expectations in in in in crypto when you're doing a TG is one of the

toughest things to do, especially in a bare market. Um but I think like the disdain comes from like that comparison and not really understanding the value of crew, like that comparison of rewards that you got versus somebody else got. while thinking that you deserve it more. Yeah, I think that's fair. The the comps that I had in my mind is like maybe Kaido just replaces all of these like generic questing platforms like your gals where it's like, hey, follow our account, retweet our tweet, you know, share it with five friends. like it's essentially the same thing if they can just like go and scroll like your activ you know get numbers about your you know users activity on Twitter um and how

much they're like talking about a certain thing um it feels largely similar to that. No, I know there's usually like there's sometimes an onchain component to some of that G stuff, but I'm sure Kaido, you know, they can loop that in as well, right? If they've got people people's wallet addresses, maybe there's more to come, right? Like maybe an onchain component gets baked into that with like test nets and and mainetss. Um, and that's something they can play with. The other one like maybe interesting comp or like sort of different approach is this like ethos network that is doing like this reputation and credibility for what I think right now is like just generally Twitter accounts. So like people rating like good or bad like this guy has good rep or bad rep on their posts or like

acts in gooding good faith or not in good faith type of thing. Um, it's a little bit different than Kaido where they're just like, you know, using AI to like do sentiment analysis and and see like, okay, this thing is getting talked about or like is interesting right now versus, oh, people think that, you know, this person or this community or this thing is good or bad, whatever that means. Um, maybe that's another angle that they can play with as well. I'm not really sure. Yeah, I think the simplest way to fix all of this is to like wayfinder is uh AI agent framework thing. Um so why not make people pay fees for that and then airdrop like that's what all of it should be if you want to do productive

or like for it to be useful. It should always be based on fees. Um, and this is like going against what I would want because ideally like I was very happy when they were doing the NFT airdrops because I had the NFTs that got air dropped and same with the Kaido Yaps. I'm very happy that I got the airdrop because I I yapped. Um, but like realistically, if you're a team, you want to pay um you want to pay for PMF. Like that's the whole goal. Or you want to pay to raise um and both of those lead to one thing which is you need to reward volume. No, not volume. mean fees, um sometimes volume, uh stuff like that or like just people taking risk to make your product better. Um either by using it or by like making it more

liquid. I don't think it makes any sense to like the Galaxy stuff always drove me crazy because just doesn't make any sense to give like 3% for like Discord or dude. Um why? Yeah, I I think that's a fair point. It it reminds me there were there have been in the past like absurd giveaways basically for just having been in a Discord when a snapshot was taken. It's like why are you giving someone $10,000 just because they were in a Discord which is free to join and didn't do anything or post anything like you're just giving away capital for no reason.

But yeah, I don't know. We we've seen the game continue to evolve like over time. I'm sure it will. We're going to go through more cycles of this for sure. If anyone wants some B lore, I um I complain about this a lot like all of this thing, but the Aptos airdrop, I don't know if anybody remembers that you just needed to set up some emails, mint the NFT, and got like air dropped. That's probably like a great moment for me overall. So, my lord, I lost like that was like a fake talk and then he he thought better of doing the fig talk on it. Yeah, I'm not doing fake talk. Um but that was like 2022, early 2022.

No, late 20. It was FTX hadn't collapsed yet. It was before FTX collapsed. Um, it was like post 2021 bare market. I'm gonna kill myself. And then the app does. So, there is good in all of that as well. Like sometimes it saves somebody's life, you know. In this case, mine. Nice. Appto alive. Yeah, I remember uh something similar with the wormhole airdrop where they air dropped to a bunch of NFD communities, but you had to like link to their Discord and a bunch of people didn't like link their account like their NFTs to the Discord and that caused a huge amount of controversy. But

at the end of the day, like people don't like people forget it's just free money. Like they're giving you free money. I don't understand why people complain so much at the end of the day. If they didn't have any financial incentives in the project and then they just didn't get any money, it's obvious. Like I don't understand why they would complain otherwise. To be fair, I always complain because if you complain, people will they'll have to try and make it better and I might get free money. So maybe I'm the problem. Yeah. Uh yeah, good points on all sides. I mean, I think it's tough with all the arbitrary criteria, right? And you don't know beforehand. And so it it's then easy for people to run down the conspiracy rabbit hole of like, "Oh well, all the insiders knew. They all

linked their accounts. They all bought this thing beforehand and they dumped right before the snapshot or whatever." It's like, you know, what are you going to do? The days move on. Yeah. I will say one thing, the insider conspiracy is less of a comp conspiracy and more of a fact I think because it sure like it's not coincidental that they sell exactly at 11 1201 after their like snapshots at 12. So yeah, I mean definitely when you see charts move like that on assets that are directly related to like snapshots, then you know somebody knows something.

It's just like it it isn't you. Mhm. Um, all right. Cool. I think that was a good good chat. Last topic I want to jump into and we've got Bach here. He wrote about Barra a couple months back. We had to bring him back on. The timeline's asking what's going on with Barra. I want to pull up our dashboard. We do have some decent data here. Um, I think the big question mark, let's we can ignore price, but the um the other big question mark is like we've got this chart of stable coin supply on Vera for example. And over the past few weeks, we've gone from uh a pretty strong high of 800 million plus down to 378 million.

Um so like a net loss of like 500 million or so of of stable coin supply on the chain. Um there's a couple of other metrics that that stand out, but um I think maybe the one thing that's worth pointing out is that this week here, like March 24th, does coincide with when proof of liquidity went live and they announced a bunch of new reward vaults. Um and there was also a spike in BGT redemptions that like that day or that week around that time frame. The other thing that's lingering and I want you to talk about Boach is like does this also line up with like Boyco Vault unlocks. I know that was like a 90day or so thing from when the capital was

committed there. Uh I I wonder if this is just like a big storm that's kind of all combining and hitting Barra all at the same time of you know changing up which vaults are being incentivized and also like a bunch of people in Boyco got their money unlocked. What are you thinking? I mean, it's exactly what you said. A bunch of people got their money unlocked. The market's down. People want to get out. Um, I I need to preface this and I already told you, Danny, I have to preface this is because like the market has gone down and in general, we see that people don't have the same risk appetite that they used to have. Um, so you can't blame all of this on I don't think you can blame a

lot on the bar chain. But in my in my like report I did highlight that I thought it was a bit silly that they locked away a lot of interested bar chain capital um in Boyo and it wasn't moved until later and that was I can't remember how much it was but it was billions of dollars um from 30 to 90 days uh locked away. Now, that's I think the second tranch the second uh tranch of that hasn't hit hasn't unlocked yet. So, that's something to keep an eye out on.

Um the second thing is like I said, that's unproductive capital. That's Can you pull up the uh rev or the fees? Not rev. I'm going to get yelled at. Um like well, first of all, you can see where the first one was unlocked. Um, and second of all, uh, or actually that might not be. Anyway, you can see that like that money just hasn't gone in. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a chain like Barrett to not have, if you're a DeFi chain, you want active. All chains want activity. But I mean, Barrett just doesn't have it. Um, and that's because I think they locked away too much capital into these um, vaults. And additionally, I mentioned this in my report as well. Um

I don't think that they are playing the right game for the stage that crypto is in right now. Like we want fast trading focused chains. Um Solana, Hyperlquid, coming up as Fogo um etc etc. like we want speed monad, mega e, like these are fast chains um built to generate either like a lot of volume and fees based on that volume or like people are able to transact in real time. Um that's what you want and that's not something that chain has offered. So I think those two combined with the fact that like I said there's a market downturn has led to a lot of

outflow from bar chain. Also, it's it was inevitably going to be a very PvP environment. Like, nobody I don't think anybody expected to go into bar chain and say, "Oh, this is going to be a fun time." Um, it's just there's too much capital in it already from raises. There's too much expectation and um like all the yields are diluted. Um and they rely a lot on liquidity mining and these like vault based tokconomics. um which people are just too smart for now. I think like even the average retail participant is like I probably shouldn't put um money into this 400% LP pool because my money is going to half and those that do put

in get out as soon as they can. Um I think overall it just hasn't worked out very well. But like I said, I think it's also a very reflexive chain clearly like it relies on the market to go up for the incentives to be used. Um, but that also goes to the downside. When the incentives aren't great, then people don't really want to take the risk of holding something that potentially isn't as great as the rest of the market. Like I think every everyone here probably has in their mind like bare market L1's and L2s or I guess all market L1's and L2s and like bull market L1's and L2s. Sonic bull market L1 or L2. Um, barricade bull market. Um, so I think you probably have that in your mind as well. And that's

how you approach these L1s. Um, I I think it'll be fine for them. Probably I probably a good idea to keep a track of it and keep track of the yield, the activity. Um, I assume they'll have big incentive programs going forward just to get more and more attention on the chain. You you think they can turn this like so let's say it stays the same because the the throughput of the chain is kind of vanilla right vanilla EVM like 15 TPS on a EVMish chain unless they've got more throughput than that VS because it's a little bit unique in their specific architecture but it's it's like a you're going against the grain I think a little bit

um like I mentioned I think people watch something different now. We've gone away from um no matter what your like morality or ethos says, we've gone away from decent maximum decentralized. We want like just things to go through and World War II resistant like we can handle it being a little bit slow towards more. So, you know what? We can make some trade-offs in decentralization as long as it's fast. You can even hear this in the institutional narratives like we've clearly gone away gone towards like we need settlement. Um like the whole thing is that we need quicker settlement for them. So the market has changed. The L1 that people desire has changed. Um you're kind of going against the grain

by having a 15 DPS chain like you said. So you need to offer something vastly different. Like you need to offer something that people want to have. So abstract is I'm not like saying I'm bullish abstract, but I'm saying they're clearly trying to carve out their own niche, which is we want like user focus. We want to make it as friendly as possible. Has it worked out for them? Not really. But like if you're going to be a vanilla L2 or L1, that's the angle that you have to take. You have to have a differentiator. But you can't both be like a slower chain. In my opinion, you can't both be a slower chain. As well as like your main offering is, oh, we're going to bring like 2021 DeFi back.

Like, and this is also my scenario for a bunch of other things. like I don't think the past can always come back because it relied on a completely different set of circumstances in that case like Zer as well as like people didn't really understand how anything works so they just around a lot on chain and they mind liquidity and life was good um it's not the same we were not in the same environment I think people want different things that's why macro take as well it's not zer anymore so um that's it any other questions. I'm happy to feel them. No, I think that was good.

You You definitely can't pretend like we're in Zerp. Um No, you can't. We're not. That's my macro thing. We're not in I like I like that you mentioned Sonic because I think it's interesting that like clearly they realize that you can't just like spit the exact same thing out. like and they kind of did spit the exact same thing out, but the way that they're marketing it is like, oh, this is like a, you know, super fast 10k TPS EVM parallel parallelized chain, what have you, but playing into that narrative of like we're going to spit out like a fast and cheap chain, which Phantom technically already was. Um, but you know, running it back and then also running the incentives and doing the

points program all at the same time. Um, it does make you wonder like if Barra had gone the same way, kept the whole reward mechanism, proof of liquid, like proof of liquidity, all this stuff, but then also leaned into the kind of new age, you know, hey, we're going to do less validators, we're going to do what we need to do to like get this thing to crank and it's going to be like a fast fast trading focused chain, but we also have this like crazy reward scheme under the hood. I don't know. Maybe maybe things turn out differently, but maybe not. I mean, it's a down market like you're saying. Um, lots of things are getting are getting spit on. It's it's hard to say. That's key there. It is a down market and bear's very clearly a bull market thing. So, that's key. And the second thing is um

I'm sure somebody's going to yell at me about this because my like bare chain knowledge is old at this point. But from what I understand, their whole stick was doing stuff with Cosmos, which you can't really make that fast very quickly. Um, at least in a previous iteration. I don't know if it's still the case, but um so it's not the same like they're not using you see a lot of these new chains use like BFD consensus um and it's like purposefully built to be really really fast. Um or in like Fogo's case, it's like fire dancer with 21 validators. Um, so they're like purpose-built for that and like that's their like structurally I just think there's an issue with Bar Chain. Like structurally it's not built to be fast from the very get-go and it's

not built to play this cycle's games from the get-go. So it's going to have problems. I think you can only have one and then you can change the narrative around a bit. Um, unfortunate. I did like the marketing. I I wonder how much you guys think like timing plays a factor here. So like if I think about Barra and I think about like Eclipse because we were talking about this one the other day. You know these teams they had did ideation and like raised money years back. So whatever like the popular hot thing was then you know farming all this stuff back then was was like the thing in 2021 like DeFi summer type stuff. So, it's not absurd that like Barrow would raise on the idea of like making a chain on this, but when then

when it takes you three, four years to actually launch the thing, it's like you maybe already missed the window of that narrative. I mean, I wonder how much that has an impact here where if they had just dropped that thing right away, maybe it would have done well like during the summer of 2023 before everyone like fully got on board like this fast chain good salana train. Yeah, I mean it's something that is very very relevant and like you said Eclipse is another one. Um, think of all of the modularity ones as well. I know they didn't some of them didn't raise for it. They just popped up at the same time or they shifted towards it. Um, didn't work out. Same with a lot of the layer related or reststaking related ones. It's it's an inevitable risk though and I think VCs and

protocols both bear this risk a lot more than investors do like liquid investors and retail do. Um if you are going to be at the forefront of frontier tech I don't know if we can still call frontier tech after how many years but you have to take like obviously risks on what to invest in. Um and they move really really fast. Like think of we're going to look at some of the things that are raising in AI right now. Um and we already knew we're going to be like why the are you doing this? Like this is irrelevant. It's going to be relevant in two years. Um and that's been the case and I think you can probably look at some chains that you're seeing right now as well. Um like one thing I've been thinking about is stable coins. Stable

coins are massive. Okay, six stable coin announcements in the past month or two months like for new chains. Like yes, of course, some of them will do well and I'm sure stable coins are large enough um TAM to like feed everybody and their families and the VCs and all of us, but I mean come on like there's some that have distribution edge plasma because of Tether relationships. There's some that have existing DeFi integrations edge, Athena. The rest we'll see. I'm not trying to on any team, but like if you are on the liquid side or if you're a retail investor or if you're a VC, anybody, you should look at these and

say, "What's like in two years?" I I think most people already do this. Maybe I'm stupid for like explaining it, but in two years, three years, will this narrative actually last? Is it going to be relevant? People change. I'm not the same man I was two years ago. Think about that. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think that encapsulates exactly what's what happens with a lot of these projects and especially especially when they just take way longer than expected to actually go to market. I think that that's probably the bigger thing there is like if you come out with this idea and it takes you four years to actually bring it to the market then like the market's already different like it's it's too late unless you got really lucky and you pinpointed the exact thing that the market was was trending towards. Um I think there's only you

know a few cases of that. I guess I guess Monet is maybe still in the running because they latched on to Fast Chain Good, you know, alongside some of the others, but also I I think Mona gets a lot of Um, especially because they raised a lot of money. Like they raised a lot of money, but what they're doing is in my mind a lot more different to what others are doing. So the EVM's main issue is that it's hard to scale cheaply um without people over and to make it really really fast. Um and that's like they're building it up from both the hardware side like they're focusing on the hardware improvements obviously they're not running it on Raspberry Pies. Um but they're also on the software side like they're they have a completely new

consensus mechanism um monad BFD which I can't remember their lab side name but they posted something on um on it. I'd recommend checking it out. It's very interesting. Um so I think they kind of saved grace a bit there because they have a very very novel protocol. Now should they have raised money for EMO? That's not up to me. That's up to the VCs that invested in it. But um I would say they're relatively safe from this until a new chain comes up and they are like, "Oh, we're actually doing this 20,000 TPS." Then we'll see. But for the time being, I think they're relevant. And that's what we're seeing now, right, Carlos?

Like all the SVMs and the other chains are like, "Yep, we're going to do a million TPS. We're going to do 10 million TPS." That that's kind of where we're at now. Yeah. I mean, but again, I I think I will reiterate your point on the time to market thing. Like Monad raised in January 2023, I think, and they still haven't launched mainet. Like Eclipse launched again like late 20 raised late 2023, I think. And then they just recently like launched their mainet like they raised like $65 million. I don't know why they need so much like money.

Same with Barrett Chain. they raised like more than $100 million. Like what what did they do like with $100 million? Like these like I just don't get it. And then yeah, I just think it's more like a BC issue as well of like being like blindly rewarded for just uh funding infrastructure and random L1 projects and like it's just an incentives issue at the end of the day I think. Yeah. And another thing to add on to that like you said Carlos it is like an incentives issue and VCs have been rewarded with it for for a very long time but also something we forget about is that before and I might be completely wrong about this and next cycle we might have

something completely different but before this cycle it was very much like a up for grab whatever like nobody knew what was going to win what tech stack what like if people wanted speed or if people wanted decentralization we genuinely didn't know um and And I would say we still don't really know exactly what we want. So VCs benefited off that and like a lot of teams also benefited off that is and investors also because you could make a lot of money longing soloex. So like we had some form of um there was a gap there. We didn't know. Um I think that's been failed semi and we know that we want fast um more at

least slightly more than other alternatives. Um, I think the big thing that people knew everything, everyone knew that we wanted better UX and there was no agreement on how to get there. And that's how you end up with stuff like Alt layer, but also just like Salana and Sui and Aptodos, but also like a million L2s and like L2s that then have like a million L3s on top of them. like nobody had there was no se semblance of agreement on like what the right way to like solve the because it's not like there's one UX issue. You can't just like be like it's the one thing but there's there's a lot of like various UX issues that I think the industry was

going after. So were you going to say one more thing otherwise I have a question for the group before we close it. What were Yeah, just ask the question. Okay. So then if we if we sit here today, what do you guys think? Like you look out two, three years, what's like the the thing that you think is going to be the same or that Bitcoin doesn't change, man. They they can't excluding Bitcoin. Is it Are we still going to be in Salana land or is Hyperlid usurped it or is it something else? Is it Fogo? I even think Bitcoin might have some L2s in three years that it might start to be getting some transaction fees. Carlos behemily disagrees.

Um, I don't know about Solana to be honest with you. I like L1 landscape. I genuinely don't know. I think because we recently had that recently as in like a month and a half ago. Um, I'm still on that train of like, oh like the big tradey guys and the sexes are going to eat our lunch in the in the L1 space. Um, so like my base assumption is to say Robin Hood is going to buy like an entire dev team, build out their L1 and it's going to cook. Um, but that's probably just like I'm anchoring my thoughts to the last month. So that's probably not the best take. Um, probably a combination of I think Solana probably stays. Um, but we

said that about Ethereum and are you convinced that Ethereum will stay? I think it probably will, but I'm not convinced. Um, so we'll see. Hyperlid though. Definitely. Hyperlid. I do think these things can hunker along even as shells of their former selves uh for a long time. Um, so I don't know that like I mean you could you could have an argument about like I don't think ETH is gone away today. So I don't know that in two or three years even if it continued on its current trend line if it's really gone away. Um, and if it turns around the ship, you know, then obviously it's not gone away.

Uh, you kind of took mine, but I was gonna say that we would see another big fintech ecosystem rivaling base is my big thought. And that could be Robin Hood, it could be somebody else, but they're I think obviously the contender in the lead right now for that one. Carlos, you said no Bitcoin L2s or L3s. Why not? And then we can close. I don't know. I was just messing with Mark. I think I I I don't believe in Bitcoin L2s. I I I don't think it makes a lot of sense. I think Bitcoin is fine as it is. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the whole purpose of Bitcoin is that it never changes. Like that's the base assumption. Bitcoin never changes.

It's always 21 mil. The chain just chugs along. Um I don't No, I I agree with both of you. I don't think Bitcoin is going to change. I just think we're going to see L2s whether whether you want them or not. I think that's fair. I think we're always going to be finding we're going to be looking for more reasons to like maintain the the strength and the legacy beyond like just asset go up. So, I think it's natural. We'll keep seeing that over and over again. Um, awesome. I I think this was a great app, guys. Uh, one last reminder for Permissionless, grab your tickets, link in the description, 0x10, 10% off. Me and Boach will be there. I hope Mark and Carlos will be there. I don't know who's going

to be there, actually. It's not locked in at all. tickets, Mark and Carlos will be there. If you don't buy a ticket, Mark and Carlos will not be there. In fact, if we don't get any tickets, one of them will be sacrificed. So, if you don't get any tickets, none of us will be there. And if you buy a lot of tickets, we'll all be there. So, buy your tickets. We'll see you there in June. 0x10. Wait, one sec. Actually, let me do one thing. Um, we are going to, if you are a Zox listener, we're going to be holding events for 0x10. So, it'll actually be quite fun. you might make the money back on food and drinks. So, that's always probably not the if you're flying in, probably not the money, but the whole money, but if you're like in the tri-state area, um I'll have to talk to

the podcast team about this, but I think we can you can definitely make your money back, at least on here. I thought I thought I was going to have to cut you off because you were going to say you're going to make your money back on the airdrop, but that's definitely not No, there's no airrop. There's no airrop, but there might be food and drinks and maybe some games or other things. We're figuring it out. All right, great app, guys. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for all the listeners out there. We will see you next time. [Music]