The Cross-Chain Intents Landscape with Catalyst

Transcript

welcome back to the for today's podcast we were joined by Alexander from Catalyst to discuss the state of the interoperability landscape we talked about the idea behind unit of liquidity the nend square problem the idea of crushing intents as well as catalyst's main net deployments on the optimism stack we are big fans of what the t catalst is doing and having an enjoyable technical podcast with Alexander today hope you enjoyed and a quick word from our sponsors before we jump rated it welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fracks and fraxel the new L2 out of the frax ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling frax is a modular L2

blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the FRX ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra swap and frax lend you can see frax fairy the

bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fraxel main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity Everclear is pioneering the clear clearing layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to

rebalance and reset their positions this is where evercar comes in evercar is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future please check out ever clear at .org and welcome back to the rollup welcome back to the rollup today we have an interesting podcast with Alexander the CTO of catalyst uh Catalyst self-described as the modular liquidity engine um solving one of the problems that Rob and I just continue to come come back to on the rollup which is like

we're trying to figure out how we get get you know thousands of app chains and all these different chains but then how do we put these chains together and you know actually give users an experience that that is Unified and kind of similar to that of a of an integrated chain so Alex you've written quite a few papers or maybe one main one about the unit of liquidity uh which kind of derived uh or from there Catalyst has derived so would love to uh welcome you on and yeah would love to learn more about your background in writing math papers I think Robbie is going to is going to have a smile on his face yeah so uh my name is Alexander I'm the CTO of catalyst I'm the main guy

behind the technical design of catalist um and one of the authors offer unit of liquidity white paper um I can jump right into the white Pap so the idea is essentially you need a way to do a make a crush chain M that is very usable for users um we've seen how unisoft V2 and balancer and even curve has kind of taken off and establish thems as the the way for longtail assets to be exchanged between each other um and I wanted to to replicate that experience with cross chain um there's a lot of different approaches to do it um and I wanted one that was scalable Crush chain since I love the crush chain

ecosystem and I wanted it to be everywhere um and I I when I initially uh like Creed it um I saw the uh World moving towards a crush in future with a lot of applications um moving to their own chain and for that you kind of need something which is a natively crush chain and that was the idea behind designing the unit of liquidity uh for Crush chain um mm yeah yeah I keep coming back to it say like the extensibility problem of of crypto like we have all these chains again and we have to figure out a way to combine them all but like a lot of these interoperability providers

aren't meant to just be uh you know having their service easily adaptable and permissionless Le deployed across many many chains and I think that that the solutions which can uh will kind of end up pushing pushing the the envelope for for where the General module ecosystem grows and and kind of how we get to the next kind of Step so I guess you're talking about asynchronously swapping assets between different pools on different chains um and like I'm curious kind of how we got here for from your perspective and kind of why you think that this is a very important use

case uh you know to to build out for the space yeah so uh I don't even know where to start because there's a lot of issues when you initially want to do this um I think the most specific issue you have is the n Square issue um where if you want to synchronize State between chains you need to have the state of all other chains on the local chain that you're interacting with and as you get more and more chains you need to have more and more States you actually need to have n minus one on your state you need to have the state of every other chain except yourself um but you all to have yourself but that's trivial um and then on every single chain that you have that's the N chains uh you need to have your information as well so that means that

you have n * n minus one amount of Shar States and that is when we grow completely onh handable so you need to figure out a way where you can get rid of this Pro uh this problem essentially you want to divide by n so it's only n and it scales linearly with the number of chains and that's the idea behind asynchronously doing these swaps because now you just send enough information over to to compute the remainder of the swap that allows you to scale linearly with the number of chains rather than scaling quadratically which is significantly better even at 10 chains the liquidity efficiency or efficient of the system in general is 10 times of a comparable solution um which is

significant um uh and if you have even more chains imagine you have 20 or 100 you generally 20 or 100 times better than the the comp P yeah and and scales from there the the complexity scales exponentially from there and so uh is this problem currently faced by like do bridges in their in their current design face this complexity problem where uh they're trying to combine state for multiple different blockchains are they are like who is currently faced by this complexity problem trying to extend to to multiple different chains so any protocol that want to interact Crush chain is they have this issue um because

if you want to have your app natively access all of the storage this is kind of the way to go there's a lot of way you can optimize this uh Stargate V1 use the Delta algorithm to try to optimize the number of messages has to be sync but they still have the issue where they need to allocate liquidity for each pair to the other chains um and does suffers this liquidity offset there's a lot of other solutions that if you just naively to scale them um then they would suffer from this issue this uh at some point uh someone I can't recall who but they Imagine This D am it distributed amm where they tried to circumvent this by just taking the edge of the amm curve

and then sending it to other chains however the issue with that is that you get 10 times or whatever number of chains you have the amount of impermanent loss which is not uh suitable for most users um Bridges specifically do not have this issue or may have it depending on the integration if you have a native integration like layer Zer uh specific cross chain tokens uh then you don't have these issues because lero owns the token every single chain and don't have to duplicate it but if you imagine a system of kind of fragmented implementations that might be uh optimism with the optimism Bridge maybe the native usdc transfer um maybe some lay zero or Wormhole Bridge coins

as well uh then you integ get this issue as well but even more significant but now if you're want to go between say base and optimism which coin do go between and imagine that you have 10 chains like this with a native Bridge you have the specific uh am bridges that we're familiar with um then now you have this problem for each bridge but you also have it between the bridges um so it's not even just the quadratic problem it becomes even uh worse than that yeah and uh I I think we're seeing some other project in the space try to attempt a similar solution uh similar to like you mentioned layer zero deals with complexity by sort of netting out the different oft tokens that move cross chain we we've seen ever clear now go

and and be a clearing layer that is able to net out the inflows and outflows between different chains now something like that is still somewhat reliant on a bridge catalyst is very different could you explain like you know kind of like the solution space that is out there to solve this problem now and then how you guys are fundamentally solving this with a different type of solution yeah there there many approaches to solving these and I don't want to Discount one and say catalyst is the best one I think they're complimentary in many ways um the X20 model for example is just one where you aggregate different competing protocols the centralized blockchain where you kind of go to as hop is also a solution

um but specifically The Hop has the disadvantage of if you wanting to uh you know defragment by creating more fragmentation which kind of like goes against what you want to try to solve um but this so those are like the two major ones like concentrating in a standardized way and then just creating another layer that you can uh send to and send from um I think the obvious disadvantages are of the fragmentation that CES doesn't inherently have um our solution is there to aggregate as many things as possible into one um and uh without going too much into details we have a feature called generaliz incenses

which is essentially able to wrap different missing protocols so that we can support one or more in a single space and that allows us to get to every single chain and then use unit of liquidity to bridge optimally or like not bridge but swap optimally between the different uh chains gotcha and so like how do how is catalyst then able to not like suffer I suppose or not not uh be prey to the limitations of the underlying interoperability providers whom you know let's say that there's 10 new chains that have launched this week H how is catalyst able to be more extensible but these the

interoperability providers which catalus uses are are are slower and more kind of like aifi in the sense of like where they operate based on their own validator sets or kind of uh security parameters things like this so two parts to this um one is that we want to try to get as many missing protocols on boarded because each missing protocol has a specific Advantage um this could also be kind of brid types so in certain ecosystems which these rollups as a service or chains as a service um you essentially would have a a layer that can send messages between and then Catalyst will be able to solve that TR integration with Gen license ands so now that is supported just kind of right off of the

Box um but and then the idea comes that we believe that these chains will be supported by different Ming protocols and just supporting all of them will get us to all of these chains um so of course there still the the like first step to that chain that has to be overcome but once that is done as long as your incentive supports it which at some point it hopefully will support every single missing protocols we will also be able to get there and once it's connected at that point then now it's connected to the whole rest of the Catalyst Network where you can go between different mesing protocols since they're standardized between gen Li incentives um so even if they're in different Ming protocols and different ecosystems you can get there through

geniz incentives which is the integration layoff Catalyst got it I I I think uh it's something important for listeners to understand because this this is what was a fun Al difference in my mind when I first learned about Catalyst was that there's no bridging and so it it's important to separate the interoperability process into two pieces you have these General messaging layers and then you have a bridge piece on top and so Catalyst still uses that General message passing layer but it doesn't use the the bridge part on top and so uh there is no asset that is being transferred across chain right it's simply uh a swap that takes place by

sending the asset on one chain uh and then receiving the asset on another chain and so this is like a cross-chain liquidity pool functionality and not a bridge that sends something across These Chains so when you're when you're like thinking about this new type of mechanism to deliver value between different rollups and different different chains like what what was it in your mind that was like no let's get rid of this bridge asset transfer layer Al together and let's still use the the general message passing layer but let's build something different on top of it um so Catalyst or the idea about catalyst is from the error or all of the

brid haacks which I'm sure you're familiar with um they kind of vol still ongoing so it's still a huge issue that um a bridge is entally a custodian so you send them assets and then you trust them to hold them and then you give you assets on the other side often through IUS um and then you wouldn't hope that they get the assets back um and uh I saw all of the hacks you think and I was like this is not the solution um and then I also like saw that to go cross chain you would like swap into an immediate token brid to the other side and then swap out to the other side so if you wanted to bridge a token that was not near ordinarily brid

um often it will consist of you know going to the intermediate token then going back to the Token you actually want and I just thought this can be done better um and I wanted to get rid of that and then why then still use something that's still bounded by this um and that's because uh we have one specific advantage that uh custodian solution doesn't have and that is we have Smart contracts where the logic can still verify through it means we can see limits on what the missing protocols allowed to do and how to interact with us so right now on the contract on main catalyst a bridge could interrog Us by more than 50% once that limit is hit the protocol deactivates um at least for a certain period of time and then it will

activate in the future and in this period people will be able to withdraw the funds this wouldn't be possible with a custodian solution um because they they have the keys to that specific logic to have um and this is why I think having an applic doing this rather than the bridge itself has significant advantages um specifically this is very advantageous when you have a solution where it's not as much in you're communicating with where we would still be able to do this through messaging but briding might not be able to to reach those or like secure those chains through onchain logic very cool and so to to Really hone in on this idea of unit of liquidity you know if we

think about an amm right because it and and we have and it's important to think about an amm not a bridge so thinking about amms like take an amm on Unis swap just on ethereum Main net eth right eth usdc also depends on eth R Bitcoin the price of eth on this amm depends on all these different pools that the asset is part of right and so how and and that is like a growing complexity problem because then you have to get the state of the pools of all of these all of the pools that this asset is in now how are you able to like scope down the state of the liquidity pool so that you don't have to consider you mentioned that

you're not considering the state of all of the blockchain on this on on all the blockchains that you are tapped into how are you able to reduce the the state that you have to manage in these different blockchains so this trick is essentially facilitated through the unit of liquidity um I can we can run a very simple examp example uh let's imagine we have a a pool of Two Chains so we have two volts one of each chain and we have 100 tokens on one CH side and 200 on the other side um when you go to one of these uh pools you would select the asset that you want to go through and then you we we get the local state on

one side we know there's 100 tokens on the the the chain and when you now add no more tokens um let's for Simplicity say you add 100 more then now we calculate the fraction between what you're adding and the future States so the specific calculation we do is 100 divid by 100 that's the as it right now in plus 100 that's the token you added so you get a half out and now we we translate this this is not the exact numers we running but it's very very close essentially saying you get 50 units equal to 50% we take this 50% and go to the other side and now we take 50% of 200 and you get 100 assets out um and if you do this again you see uh 100 /

200 + 100 is roughly a third and a third of 133 so you see that the swap justed had the same impact on the the swap that uh that you would have in an mm and actually if you take these two equations and put them together you get the Unis V2 equation um the specific Catalyst logic is slightly more complicated that that's to facilitate weights so you can say I want to distribute liquidity on different chains like this similar you could in balancer or you could change it to be more of an amplify one so you can swap stable coins uh similar to what you can do in curve um makes sense yeah yeah how uh how closely related is this

concept of cross chain liquidity providers with solvers in the in this intent world where we have solvers that are feeling intents to go cross chain and they have to hold assets on different chains you know in this in this liquidity model where we have one side of the pool on one chain and we have another side of the liquidity pool on another chain it's almost like we we're creating this like asset topography across different chains and users can submit their intents to go and and get filled by a certain liquidity provider is it very similar Concepts maybe you know what is the similarities what are some of the differences I really like the uh the the way you described it um you you can essentially you know look at Catalyst as being kind

of liquidity pot sitting around all of catalst liquidity is accessible on chain so if you have a vault that has two tokens on one side you can do a normal swap in that between the two tokens um just as you could if that liquidity was in the balancer unit or curve full um you can do the same thing in Catalyst um but there's an additional feature of catalyst is that we have two participants in the system that's offchain we have the Rel layers which are facilitating the sending SW to CR and then we have something we call Underwriters underwriter essentially able to take liquidity from the destination pool oration Vault and use it for their own purpose so you can imagine that some uh some tokens goes in

on the one side and uh a missing protocol will take some time to generate approv this to make sure it won't reor it will be finalized and all of the security and on the other side immediately an underwriter comes and says I want to extract these tokens and give them to the user and then when this arrives when these tokens arrive to me then I will claim them um this Lally allows the swap to happen instantly but it can also have the advantage it can be used to fill intents so if you have an an intent describing the rout the same uh solver can actually go and see okay Catalyst has liquidity for this route and do that swap instantly without suffering any price uh change and now in the fill intent without actually without

holding any tokens at any point um and that's a significant uh you know Improvement to how to uh complete the liquidity between different chains using Catalyst and like this kind of uh asynchronous liquidity on the all the different chains at risk of like torturing this analogy it it sounds like almost like a flash loan like I can like borrow liquidity from cataly go use the liquidity to fill an intent and then with the the liquidity that I get for filling that intent I can go repay the the Catalyst liquidity po yeah it's it's slightly more complicated than that of course but yeah in like the grand scheme of things that's totally possible um and that's one of the things that's why we

call Cat liquidity engine we want to facilitate these Crush chain uh all of these Crush chain use cases that you can do Crush chain um with this intense if this a protocol that you're building if this is logic we want cast to be able to fill all of it um we have specifically actually built some something we call liquidity or like logic dependent swaps that really helps this if you want to do something on the destination side you can say that your swap uh is dependent on that execution so this could be filling the intent if you are not the fastest and you didn't manage to fill that intent you can make it explicitly fail um and this helps you know combine the liquidity even though it seems kind of fragmented between of the chains this

helps to like combine it so applications can use this almost atomically between the different change so I I really like the analogy I I don't think you're you're killing it I think you are spot on yeah and if we bring it to kind of what is now live on Catalyst on mainnet with the super chain kind of the op stack chains maybe you could talk us through how this works under the hood um from the from the liquidity pool perspective as well as the involvement of any logic dependent swaps or um any kind of in uh Intense or catalyst's solver Network as well yeah so we have a deployment of main it right now with three chains uh we're not allowed to call them super chains but

they are op stack um and it's blast uh uh op and base I recall correctly very embarrassing with did it's using Amplified balls to swap e between them so you can Bridge your e in like 12 seconds or 30 seconds by getting them on the ridden um and how it works we have a router you swap through and then on the other side we have another router that would then handle your swap so you can get it wrapped and unwrapped and very simply you know we use the logic dependent swap to say to the rapper if the unwrapping fails don't do it but that's will always succeed but in the future you could imagine that you want to swap from let's say blast to uh op

the token not the a gas token and if the swap between um the E on optimism to the op token Fai you could revert back to get your Ethan blast back because now you didn't want to go through with this um so that's a future application of this logic depend swaps that we're very excited to see this works wonders both uh aggregators implementing us they can choose you know what what do we want to happen if we can't get the assets that user wants um and it also works really well in the future when we do kind of chain abstraction if you want to purchase an NFC of another chain but it got bought what do you want to do with the tokens now do you want to get them on the origin chain or do you want to get them as like a fallback on the destination

chain um further more we have uh the two offchain Services we have the relayer running um so we're currently using one B so that's a relayer working to get these Wold proofs which are signed messages by the Guardians and then submitting it on chain and then the the swap goes through and we have under wrers to make sure that instead of 30 minutes that it takes for wormhill proof to be generated it only takes around 12 to 20 seconds um it's slightly slower on the UI because we're not pulling that fast um but in real time if you go and watch your wallet it will happen in 12 to 20 seconds coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers

today in the modu space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically it can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coiling is trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plug into some of these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modu da Solutions or even ethereum coent is able to provide a long-term data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period

blockchains are Billboards notot databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show mantle is a layer to blockchain with one of the biggest onchain treasuries in all of crypto and they have aund day campaign called metamorphosis live now what this is is it is a campaign for their liquid Stak eth token M eth as well as their upcoming liquid reaking token c m eth where you can utilize this token on The Mantel Network in a variety

of different apps some of your favorite reaking protocols and defi protocols and earn yields in the form of powder which will eventually be turning into a governance token Mantle's been around for a while we like them because they use their own form of Igan da uh they have a good ecosystem and they're growing so check out this 100 day metamorphosis campaign and hope you guys enjoy the rest of this video there's a there's a really like infinite design space um when like considering these logic dependent swaps that you talk about it was uh fig from the squid uh Bridge aggregator um who kind of opened my eyes to this which if we think about like you know all of these different

possibilities for payments uh the one use case that I think was that really resonated was uh let's say I I want to take a trip and on this trip I'm gonna book a flight a hotel and I'm going to see a concert on this trip and so I only want to book the the flight and the hotel if I'm able to get the concert tickets and let's say there's a two-day concert one of them's Friday night one of them Saturday night if I'm only able to get the Friday night I want my flight on Friday right not on Saturday and if I get the Satur day then I want to switch my flight and I only want to do that dependent on the concert ticket that I get and so this logic dependent swaps are are it's like very uh it has like it has really far-reaching imp implications

because there's lots of different use cases here that could play out depending on you know not just Financial use cases um for di5 but also use cases that stretch Beyond like just in general like products Services uh that are dependent on one or another thinking like just in getting inspired here like thinking about the different like Ai and and machine learning use cases too uh if I want to design a certain use case and my I want to tell my AI to go design a script you know certain plugins might be available and I might have to use a use case dependent on certain plugins and not on other plugins and so I think the the Imp implications of uh of these logic dependent swaps are really

far-reaching and really uh just just really cool to see so I'm uh pretty inspired by the infrastructure that you guys have built to support these logic dependent uh swaps purchases and and Beyond yeah I'm very happy to hear that I'm also very excited to see what people are going to do with it um since you know I can only imagine so many things um but I I really hope that people take it and really do something with it um because Crush chain has kind of been missing this kind of dependency I want to only do this if this also is true and yeah we've seen some parts of it with shad sequencing um but Shad sequencing is currently like much further out and catalst logic when swap

is something you can access right now if you go to the uh mainten it deployment it has it open you can just go and and do a swap and you can set this dependency um like you can even do this where you do a cross chain Swap and you're like a I don't think I want to do this anymore submit the transaction destination side say I regret it and then it will it will fit um and and that's just one of the very simple things you can do and as you said there's so many things that you can do in the future with it that I'm I'm very excited to see yeah yeah me too and I think it it brings a a a kind of uh a question to my mind with regards to where where Catalyst can can really do these do these swaps and these cross

chain interactions in in kind of outside of just the optimism op stack chains and as you guys start to scale more and more CH I'm curious like what kind of Dev uh implementations are are required there and like like what is the what is the obstacle for Catalyst to be on or to not be on you know all of the rollups and all of the app chains by the end of the year you guys could be on a hundred chains like like what what would stop that from happening on your end so there's currently two things that are like how that are like problems with scaling uh one is just uh how do we do it like how do we get all of the rpcs how do we

spin up all of the servers how do we structure it so we're not overloading ourselves there's like a onchain component but there's also offchain component and I think the offchain component is just as important um as the the onchain component and we're working very very very hard to create the offchain component such that we can just add a new chain in a 10 minute span now it's on the UI I think we need to work towards like permission this uis um permission this CR API apis for the UI and stuff like that um to make sure that these uh you know scaling just happens almost exponentially um and I think we'll get that I think this is one of

the easier problems to solve I think the onchain part is the the difficult one um and it's just because we haven't paid as much attention to it yet um and once we get that it will it will just go go off um the other one is more of the the onchain and what is PR um we still need a missing protocol of course urrently we only have two missing protocols integrated that's warhole and polymer um though I can reveal that we do have two more in the works and we are in talk with another one so hopefully in half a year we have five integrated and that will be my my very ideal Point um so right now we're limited to what Wormhole can provide because prob my on on testet

um but once we have the other ones you can quickly imagine that the number of chains that we can support just almost scales exponentially especially because a lot of these measuring protocols try to be specifically good for a certain ecosystem um so each of these ecosystem as long as it's just covered by one of them and that's kind of bridged out now it's connected to the rest of the Catalyst Network um so I think those two are the the main uh biggest pain points um but generally any anyone can deploy Catalyst our code is completely open um you can actually go to our repository right now and deploy it to all of the chains H we don't even need to verify it it will just go up on the correct

addresses um we use grade two a lot um so you can just go and do it and then it'll be there and waiting for us to connect it to the UI yeah so so if you can get the additional inoperability Partners um then you know this can scale and it can just continue to scale with them um I think Rob Rob has a question and then I'd like to kind of zoom out a catalyst and and talk a bit bit more about your thesis for where this space is going to be heading next yeah I I I am curious like so so Unis swap was able to solve this scaling issue Thing by by giving permissionless optionality to the users to come in paste the token address

and add liquidity yourselves with more and more permissionless uh tool and projects popping up hyperlane with permissionless interoperability lava network with permissionless rpcs do you think there's an option at like H how do you see the integration of some of these permissionless Partners to to Really open up and and scale infinitely and allow anyone to come in and and operate and scale on your behalf yeah there's something we're working very hard on um there's a lot of issue with it it's kind it's a trust issue because um you could easily like just have a interface where you provide an RPC and we connect to that RPC and we'll like index it um but who is to say that that

RPC is actually representative of the true States how we verify that an RPC belongs to that specific chain is not just uh saying it is and like trying to make use of sign fent messages um and all of these trust assumptions that are kind of through an intermediate partner that we need to verify um that is making this harder I think the solution to this is kind of what I talked about trying to scale the API that we have so this permission list so anyone can run an API anyone can run the UI and then these uis you can now add chain then you can just make a pi into our repository and we can merge it and now that chain is also on our interface I think that is currently

the most feasible approach um but I'm really looking forward to someone um you know figuring out a solution to this problem we can tackle the uh you know liquidity problem permission is deployment of the protocol permission is pool creation permission is Crush liquidity and permission is you know connecting the liquidity to Red the catalist network and as you also talked about H figuring out the the permission L ability lava figing out permission is RPC you just need to figure out someone or like someone just needs to figure out how to to do the uh permissionless chain verification um I don't want to like say that someone as in we can't do it it it's just that our shortterm road map is so tightly fixed that I'm unsure if it's

going to be ours but I I really hope that um a solution that people are working on um so that we can get the whole stack uh independent or like permissionless um yeah that that's that's my best answer I'm sorry more fulfilling answer um but it's a very hard problem to to tackle also because all of the infrastructure um like servers that need to be run index and and so forth it needs to be to managing [Music] this cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that

enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartey enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use tradition software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today yeah that's like the ideal end State um but yeah it kind of helps to have a team helping around right and that's kind of what crypto is about zooming out a bit from Catalyst here we you know we talked a lot about uh kind of the technicals about how it works under the hood and where we go from here I'm I'm more so generally curious now

about your your your thesis for where this kind of multi-chain cross-chain landscape goes from here you know we're starting to see a lot of chain abstraction uh projects pop up and kind of build out that tooling um and just generally like the Advent of a lot more chains um you know I'm curious on what is your thesis of the way the cross chain landscape evolves over the next year or so and kind of what major changes or even minor Chang ches or thoughts um you know that that you can share with us for where you see this landscape headed I think I think it'll be on a road right now um I think it's pretty clear that we're going to watch more chains uh there's a lot of chains

as service there's a lot of rollups as a service we see a lot of um chains popping up specific to application um but we also see a lot of chains coming up with this kind of more um like General application chains um so think going into a future where has a lot more chains um there's going to be a lot of applications having their own chain if they're build on a rooll up bu a service or chain of service uh snack if it's even their own specific chain um I think that will happen um there's also going to be a lot more application blockchains um essentially uh kind of like base or optimism um simply because I think the the power that some of the businesses on

these chains have is is very significant you can see how com is kind of integrating base directly into their um you know wallet and like trying to make onchain offchain um which I think is very exciting um but you can also see like a lot of application just seeing the feature of having own chain like providing cheap services to users uh where they don't have to worry about you know the E gas spiking on a bad day um and and stuff like that um and I think that is kind of inevitable um ethereum is ethereum has a fixed size and they're also going towards the sharding future which is kind of more like a a rollup future so it's even

inevitable from that um and even you look at salana which is like this super fast chain as you branded like that it also has bottlenecks at some points and kind of need roll up to further scale um so I think like like many chains that is the future it's it's kind of uh not even like question if it is the future it's kind of just what we see um and I think some of this fragmentation comes from it is like inherent in it and we need to build more um Crush native applications uh that include Catalyst which can do this you know asynchronous liquidity and different chains but we also need other Crush Chain Solutions um we need Crush

chain Lending Service we need optimizations you know using Y earn um and similar on ethereum maybe we also need those Crush chain um and there's also you know other services that are also relevant to do Crush chain or gaming how does gaming work CR chain or do we just have games on the single chain um and yeah I think that it's it is the future and the general way we see applications moving kind of has to be um from what I read are the four I think it is um is also moving in this where you can deposit on one chain with draw on another or like Bor another um and there's also a lot of other lending and service competitors coming up to that I

can do similar so I think it's also in in their thesis it's also that future to be moving in yeah the uh the obit chain announcement was interesting and I think that we're generally aligned on quite a bit of your thesis uh here on the rollup and um have been seeing this play out for the last you know six eight months and think it'll continue to kind of play out so um kind of com to a to a wrap up here Alexander thank you for coming on and sharing insights about Catalyst your journey through uh you know being a developer and putting a vision together to see this you know future of cross chain and uh a multi-chain crypto world and I think it's only going to accelerate from here and so excited to

see Catalyst kind of push forward and be one of the leading players in helping to to bring this all together so thanks thanks again for coming on yeah and thanks very much for having me asking very good questions any Alpha on the next uh math paper um I don't know if you're going to be publishing a paper in the near future um we do have a very exciting protocol coming up but I cannot reveal much I'm very sorry about that no worries cool man