Credible Commitments: How Pre-Confirmations Unlock L2 Interoperability | S7 E6 | Jonas & Murat

Transcript

generally l2s are very in interested but as I said they have very distinct profiles and the example the real world example I'd like to give here is um you know the EU a little bit you do you did have a leading L2 there England and and they opted to you know stay out of the EU a lot of large corporations that are you know creating a new headquarters are now doing it in Ireland right so um because of uh ease of interoperability if you will it's very easy for that worker to migrate to the Head qus in Ireland whereas they have to get a visa and a whole bunch of headaches if if they have to go to England uh so uh I would think this would pertain to l2s as well hey everyone this episode is brought to you by SE the Blazing fast

parallelized blockchain which is unlocking salonik performance for the vast ocean of e devs out there now you're going to be hearing all about say and their new V2 upgrade but if you take away one thing evm is here to stay there are some problems with it which we're going to get into later in the episode but say and especially their V2 upgrade is helping solve that so thank you very much say for making this episode possible hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Unis swap delivering the best onchain trading experience in crypto period Bar None one thing I want to call out is the Unis swap extension so say goodbye these days of these annoying as our popup wallet extensions you lose your place trading you have to open it back up Unis swop now has a nice Sleek sidebar that persists no matter

where you are in the web it's much easier to use if you click the link at the bottom of this episode you can join the waiting list and I'll see what I can do to get you moved up that waiting list but definitely go click the link check it out if you're building anything in web 3 you likely need oracles and verifiable Randomness that's why B is partnering up with Supra which offers the fastest oracles and D vrf free for listeners of BCR for 12 months and you can get that at sub.com blockworks the link there is in the show notes or stick around we're going to be talking about them later in the program all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and do not represent the views of any

organization with which the co-hosts are associated with nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve um today Hart and I are joined by uh Jonas from chainbound and Marat from Prime F guys welcome to the program it's good to be you thanks for having us guys we're pumped uh today we're going to be talking about something that really feels like it's on the Vanguard of innovation uh which is uh pre-confirmation uh and before we get into that which is inevitably going to be a little bit of a technical subject I actually want to start with sort of a state of the union of uh eth l2s at the

current moment and obviously there's a lot to be excited about uh on eth l2s but maybe we could actually start with some of the challenges um and almost the problem statement that is making folks excited about pre-confirmation today so Marat or Jonas whoever is feeling bravest and wants to uh kick us off can you give us a state of like what's going on on ethal 2s and what are some of the issues that people are looking at um that has us looking at pre-confirmation as a solution one of the bigger problems right now that a lot of people are talking about is uh centralized sequencers this has been a problem for a long time um but decentralizing the sequencer is is pretty hard to do uh especially if you want like the the really good ux that comes from centralized sequencer so I think I think

that's one uh I think another one uh is composability right so if you have a central if if each of the rollups have has their own sequencer it's really hard to get at least synchronous composability between them uh so I think that's why like shared sequencing base sequencing I think I think that's why it's a it's a Hot Topic right now because it does solve some of these issues uh morat do you want to add anything to that yeah I mean I definitely agree with that and then uh what we've also discovered is that there's very different profiles when it comes to l2s particularly I mean there there's uh you know optimistic rollups ZK rollups within ZK rollups there's different types of uh proofs that are being used um some generate more data some generate less data some have other

considerations uh then there's validium so uh it's it's very hard to kind of um you know paint them with one uh you know brush if you will so uh we really need to have some abstraction mechanisms maybe that um you know that pertain to each one of them and not necessarily solve for a specific type of L2 yeah so maybe to to sum some of these challenges up and we can start to segment it from the perspective of different stakeholders in the ecosystem we could maybe talk about this from the perspective of the user right so from the user's perspective it feels like the L2 landscape on ethereum is pretty fragmented right you it almost feels like the canonical sort of Journey is

maybe you start on coinbase you go to eth main chain and then you have to make these weird bridging decisions to go up to optimism or arbitrum once I'm on optimism it's tough for me to get my assets over to arbitrum unless you're using a cross my right heart uh but ultimately it feels like a pretty fragmented landscape um which is a challenge I think something that we're going to get into that might be more of an invisible challenge but it definitely still exists is uh quantifying some of the risk that you're taking on uh as user and there are different types of risk but definitely execution risk um is one we can talk about way the pre-confirmation is play into that um I think another challenge uh and maybe this is one of the reasons why based sequencing this idea of Base sequencing by the way to give a quick definition of

that it's when instead of using an additional uh provider like espresso or something like that to sequence the rollups as as a shared sequencer you're actually using ethereum itself to be a sequencer for the rollup I think one of the reasons why there's been renewed interest in base sequencing which is actually not a super New Concept but it's being augmented with these pre-confirmation that we're going to start to talk about is I think there's a little bit of a concern about hey what is the value proposition of ethereum right where's our lockin especially as rollups are starting to transition to becoming validium and they're using uh Alda Solutions right some of that lock in for where you have to buy eth in this process is starting to go away and I think that's I don't know if you guys

have anything to add it but I think there's there's a couple of different um ways that we could look at this maybe from the perspective of different stakeholders and pre-confirmation are being uh you this maybe the the background in which pre-confirmation start to be a big subject of interest and I want to get into some of the different flavors of prec confirmations that exist and Define what that is so maybe either Marauder yonas could Jonas could one of you guys give us just a definition of like what a pre-confirmation is and then we can get into some of the different flavors about how they could be implemented sure um you know uh we we published this article uh defining it as a as a credible heads up before a confirmation happens and uh what's notable about this definition is that it's not about web 3 or blockchain

and we give this example of of Amazon uh that fulfills your order when you make an order with Amazon and essentially gives you a pre-confirmation even though Amazon's not delivering the order usually USPS FedEx or uh you know some other delivery specialized entity is delivering the order but Amazon's pre-confirmation is credible enough that you don't actually you know check USPS most of the time that you make an order from Amazon it tells you it's going to be there in two days uh so we we like to apply this framework to how we think about pre-confirmation under web 3 and ethereum as well one thing to push on there so when we go back to like Central so your credible commitment the credible heads up that something's going to happen credibility here I think is kind

of an interesting term because there's many ways you could presumably do that so just to make the difference to the landscape today where we have centralized sequencers run by the optim optimism labs and arbitrum Labs those enti are giving you a pre-confirmation today from their centralized sequencer where that heads up is basically guaranteed by the credibility of those teams do do you agree with that yeah to some degree and and I would say the users uh kind of abide by that credibility or think it's sufficient uh or they don't and they don't use that right so yeah I agree with that yeah I guess actually even to go a step back

just to make sure the audience is all like clued on on what we're talking about like when you submit a transaction to one of these l2s I'll just pick optimism when you go to optimism you submit a transaction the centralized sequencer is giving you a pre-confirmation that your transaction did succeed or not and is going to be included but you don't actually know that fully until well there's a little bit of a pipeline there until it's checkpointed five minutes is later and then technically you got to make sure that there's not a fault in that that checkpoint right um so just so we're all the same page we're talking about pre-confirmation they exist today today um but they're coming from a their

credibility is determined by a centralized entity for the most part yeah I would say that's similar to Amazon right I mean Amazon gives you your package is gonna be there in two days any number of events can happen in between actually if you order enough from Amazon sometimes those packages don't get delivered in two days or it's the wrong package or it gets delivered to somebody else and all that but that doesn't I mean that takes away a little bit from Amazon's credibility but it still has keeps it 99% more or less right and next time you're making an order from Amazon yeah you do recall that one time that things went wrong but things still go through most of the time so I would say it's akin to that okay i' like that I really like that example of Amazon I'd actually like to expand that

definition and even say like when you make a payment with your Visa credit card Visa is also giving you in a sense a pre-confirmation because that actually hasn't been really settled right these are sort of payments networks which is the equivalent of like the Trad equivalent of L2 those are all going to get batched and then submitted to a bank where that's ultimately going to end up being settled so just like in the world of Mev where you know I know hosu will talk about like Google ad auctions as a form of Mev like honestly you could kind of look at that same thing and say you get pre-confirmation everywhere I would love to get a sense of you know when you're looking at someone that's giving you a pre-confirmation what is the advantage that they're getting um and then what risk or cost are they taking taking on

as well um maybe Jonas I I don't know if you have a sense or because I think one of the ways that you could look at the different flavors of or models for pre-confirmation is who is giving you the pre-confirmation which ultimately begs the question why is that in their benef in their interest to do so right so like what is the advantage um and maybe cost that they're taking on there yeah I think so so currently centralized sequencers they they would give pre confirmations because it just enhances ux right it just makes using the rollup uh a lot smoother um but in a base rollup world the there there do need to to be some uh like incentivization for for different entities to give out pre- confirmations and I think a lot of that

is translated in in the pre-confirmation tip uh so so the idea today is to add like a a different tip that can be priced like any other way uh that would pay a certain preon or the entity that is pre-confirmation an additional fee for actually giving out the pre-confirmation commitment or promising to include it at a certain time in the future so actually I'm going to keep going backwards here just to make sure all the users or listeners are on the same page so what we have today with rollups uh I want to know if you guys agree if we separate this into two parts where the rollup is making transactions cheap by effectively aggregating and

compressing them offchain and then checkpointing on chain periodically um but that in and of itself is actually very slow so we'll roll up today if we don't include a pre-confirmation you might get cheap transactions but the ux is shitty because it'd be very slow um and then what we've done to make the ux good so we want the for the ux we want it to be fast and cheap so we figured out cheapness by doing this L2 compression to make it fast we have to add in a pre-confirmation that says yep with a high degree of certainty your transaction is going to be included and is going to succeed and right now centralized sequencers are doing this function for free effectively um they're not really getting paid to do this

they're doing it because they want their L2 to be the one that wins or whatever else highly competitive Marketplace for it so they're centrally sequencing these things and delivering pre-confirmation for free um and that works today although you are trusting those centralized sequencers what we're going to be talking about is other mechanisms to deliver pre-confirmation outside of a centralized sequencer um and those yonas what you were talking about those other mechanisms there's going to be some cost we're gonna have to pay for them somehow um uh and that's both to decentralize the sequencer and then maybe to add in other ux benefits like cross-chain composability

agreed yes I think I think that's right and like initially it might seem strange that you have like centralized sequencers giving out pre-confirmation for free and then like decentralizing the role and all of a sudden you might have to pay a bit more for for like a pre-confirmation uh and like At first I think it's intuitive that decentralization will cost a bit more but hopefully by having all of the advantages uh and like composability that that shared sequencing or base sequencing brings in the end it might be worth the cost are actually cheaper than a centralized sequencer um but we'll have to see on that I would say that the cost is likely to

increase as uh you know there's more actors uh that need to coordinate in in some shape or form uh but perhaps we can abstract some of that and and and have still or deliver still a similar uax of the end user Morad I want to add like one silver lining bit to that too which is um like in a very technical way as I understand it blobs blobs are very large so blobs are what's making l2s very cheap now blobs are very large they're actually much much larger than they like need to be for any individual rollup today and so maybe maybe there are ways to actually make the cost of this decentralized pre-confirmation not any higher because we are like sharing blob

space maybe yeah the overall cost can go down um but you know the the pre-confirmation cost maybe can go up incrementally but that's negligible uh regarding the overall cost so that's ve very feasible yeah so I want to get a sense of uh what are some of the diff who are some of the different entities that could be acting as a pre-con or issuing these pre-confirmation and maybe to just maybe that's a good way to segment into different models as well but uh one proposed solution that we've been sort of talking about is is based uh like based pre-confirmation where the L1 proposers are actually um the issuer of of pre-confirmation but then you could also look at it from the standpoint of

maybe a builder uh Builders who are building these blocks realistically there are what like three of them today um they're the ones who are issuing the pre- confirmations and maybe we could get into I think actually if I'm correct maybe speaking a little bit too broadly here but um you're Your solution Prime have kind of Started from the perspective of approaching Builders to get them to issue pre-confirmation and Jonas you approach it a little bit more from the uh base pre-confirmation standpoint so um maybe Mara can we start with you like you know what is the sort of uh explain the sort of model behind um getting Builders to order pre-confirmation how would that actually sort of work logistically if you could just get us into some of the more more technical description and then uh pros and cons would be really helpful as well

yeah so I have a product background right so I've been a product manager for you know seven eight years at least um and you know I'm a firm believer in asking users their problems and what they need when I was a product lead at block native and we had about 10 to 14% of uh block building power on ethereum L1 right right after the merge the number one uh kind of request or question I was getting from Searchers was that can you guarantee me next block execution so I want my transaction to be in the next block that you're building well as someone who had you know 10% of the network that meant 90% of the time I can't give you that and and that was problematic and at the first Mev boost uh stewards uh gathering at Devcon Bogota I raised this issue and uh you

know put out this idea that what if we had a network of block builders that you know these users could could interact with and the network could give these guarantees even though each individual actor might not be able to and this was interesting enough where lots of people encouraged me to pursue this idea it eventually uh you know I founded Prim Mev and it eventually became a Mev commit which is this network that we've been developing to facilitate this but yeah uh the the the fundamental issue there was how can we let these consumers of block space uh kind of get these Network level guarantees on being in the next block and we weren't naming this as a pre-confirmation at the time but this is a core user problem that uh you know I started with along with my co-founder and others uh on a journey to solve so

that's the angle that we came in after you know a year and a half uh there's been lots of or the expansion of the design space uh for for pre-confirmation the rollup ecosystem uh proliferated uh you know blobs are a thing now there's all sorts of different pre- confirmations that we're learning about and kind of uh you know research searching so the the design space is very very large I would say but yeah that was the angle and because Builders have their own mol and have the ultimate visibility into the men pool if you will for their for their own sake each Builder is in the best position to make the decision whether to pre-confirmation or not now this pertains more to defi transactions I would say and and trades and there may be other actors uh like

relays or others that are in better positions to preconiran-food.com okay that's makes a ton of sense to me I think one challenge there uh from from that standpoint would be okay makes a lot of sense Builders have an enormous amount of visibility either into you know the public M Pool but also whatever sources of private order flow that they're looking at so they probably have the most confirmation or the sorry the most comprehensive view um of uh all the transactions at any one point which will allow them to price I actually have a lot of questions about how you price pre-confirmation but one of the challenges there is that ultimately all this is going to have to settle down to eth and the The Entity that has the Monopoly on the next block is whatever

proposer ultimately ends up getting selected so there I would assume there'd be some kind of liability of if this Builder is issuing all these different pre-confirmation they can have really granular understanding of how to price that but they still can't guarantee that those transactions are going to land so I would imagine that that's there'd be some amount of liability there right yeah exactly and this is uh you know this is this is how we came up with this fulfillment Consortium model where let's say there's three large builders that more or less uh build all of the blocks and if all of them give you a commitment then you don't need the proposers involvement really however this is further strengthened if the proposer involved as well if the proposer will say hey I will ratify a block that comes from uh you know someone who is

committed to this transaction then the the cred the commitment becomes ultimately credible essentially you know that you know if I'm making an Amazon order that USPS will deliver this order whatever it is uh so uh ultimately it's a coordination problem that you want all of these actors to coordinate and like if if I could wave some magic one and have every actor along the M pipeline give me a commitment for my transaction I would love that right so um it's not even just the proposer because the proposer can say stuff but someone can deliver a malicious block they can accept it it can be invalid because there's an optimistic relay and there's all sorts of things that can go wrong along the pipeline and ultimately you want everyone's word that you know this is going to go through um you know it's

not realistic to get everyone's word but we can get close to it but uh by coordinating these actors yeah I think that makes sense and I think like we started more from the from the proposer sense but um which like initially makes sense because they are like you said Mike they have like complete Monopoly over over the blog or almost complete Monopoly I should say um and so they can like promise to include something uh with more credibility I believe than like three Builders uh but it's true morat if if you include a proposer as well that that might not be a big big issue um but the thing with with like involving L1 proposers is that you you still want them to remain

somewhat decentralized and the way you do that is by not upping their their duties to running like L2 noes and and by pre-confirmation transactions so there's a bit of a dichotomy there and so what we're looking at like at shound is is how can we create something uh that looks like PBS uh that that creates like an an Outsource like a market for outsourcing these more uh sophisticated uh these more sophisticated duties like sequencing like uh pre-confirmation must to uh and this can be this can be

done by using Technologies such as such as igen layer and reaking yeah the the other thing i' I'd like to add to that is you know this idea of Multiplicity you know there's a lot of research going on to kind of break the proposer Monopoly uh and when you have multiple proposers that are building uh or proposing uh a block and a slot then you know you can't rely on the proposer commitment as much or you might need a commitment from all of them and you might still end end up in a situation where you know you get commitments from two out of the three uh you know proposers for that slot Etc right so coordination uh still becomes a very key or fundamental uh issue uh that uh needs to be solved when it comes to

uh these future proofing these Solutions so if I'm to summarize just generally speaking Mora Your Design is like we're going to get Block Builders and maybe proposers to uh to join into a PTP Network you're calling Mev commit which I like I like the name um not really we're saying anyone who has any credibility in in getting uh a transaction on chain including a relay including possibly a solver or or Searcher in some cases and we have some Bridge examples that uh this pertains to we we say this is an open agnostic Network to uh you know any provider of execution Services uh and then they can come in and and perhaps there can be a

scoreboard one day similar to how there is one for Mev boost where uh you know this is these are the most credible actors whose commitments you want to trust if you will okay but the you have the coordination problem where in order to make the ux of this experience good you want that uh commitment to happen in a short number of blocks like let's just say with well the sooner the better right um in in near real time basically you wanted that to happen as soon as possible that you send it yeah and if you don't have like a big proportion of the actors involved to make that execution guarantee happen this there's a coordination problem until you get to that like there's probably a critical Threshold at which this sort of works well right um and then y uh Jonas Your

solution kind of with like Ian layer reaking is you're going to get uh you're looking to get most proposers running um like an ABS software so an IG layer AVS um that would offer similar sort of execution guarantees and they'd get slashed if they don't do this but you also have a coordination problem in a sense in this design too where we need like enough of the proposers bought into this design in order for these execution guarantees to be timely yeah or yeah well I I guess it depends like if you want if you want to do so let's also maybe talk about the distinction between L1 and L2 pre- confirmations I think I think that would be interesting so if you want an L L1 pre-confirmation you can only get it from the proposer that's

next in line uh because like if if if you get it from proposer n plus2 the state might change you might get a commitment but it can't really be enforced um but if you're if you're talking about L2 pre confirmations like uh what you can do is have uh like a delayed inbox and maybe a priority inbox where the priority transactions so pre-confirmation transactions are committed to uh and when executed they have priority over all of the non reconfirmed transactions which means that essentially uh like the L1 proposer that is opted into this can can give out pre confirmations for multiple slots uh and then make sure that these

pre-confirmation are executed before any non- preconiran-food.com mics roll up um and you build uh an ABS where you have 10% of the stake uh committed to this so like roughly one in every 10 blocks um uh they are the ones that are going to be sequencing Mike's rollup so they're going to be committing Mike's rollups call it every 10 blocks um yeah and uh you're saying that that

Network so that that system of of of proposers now that have um opted into this I layer AVS um they could be issuing pre-confirmation in real time and then any any one of the proposers of one of those blocks uh that doesn't honor that set of pre-confirmation they'd be slashed and that's kind of their credible commitment is that roughly right yes that's right that that's that's exactly right and I also want to say that like if your proposer is 10 slots in the future uh that's not necessarily the time when the two batch will be settled or the pre-confirmation they can just push it

to the men poool and get it included by any of the proposers or blog Builders uh ahead of their slot so they can actually start settling faster than their own slot uh which also like helps with with finality it's a caveat but I think it's maybe important to mention no but basically you're saying so in this a in Mike's rollup that's being uh sequenced uh by this uh this AVS uh you're saying that the network of these these the 10% of stake that's doing that's sequencing mic's rollup they could just be issuing credible pre-confirmation credible commitments to transactions in their own kind of P2P network if you will filling up a blob

and as soon as the blob is filled then that gets sent to ethereum main net and committed that's that's what you're saying that's right yes yep yeah cool one other thing uh I'd be curious I think the this presupposes the ability something like inclusion lists right of uh of proposers to be able to say like yes they they have to have the ability to once I make this pre this uh confirmation then I have to I have to actually have a guarantee on the other side of things that Builders will actually include these lists include these transactions in their block right I think that's a necessary bit of infrastructure for this to to work from the based pre-confirmation standpoint Jonas correct me if I'm wrong there well if if

we're talking about L1 pre-confirmation then yes uh the the proposer needs to communicate it with with Builders but if we're talking about about L2 pre confirmations where sequencing is distinct from like PBS on L1 uh it's a bit different like the the the sequencer has a full rights to order transactions and doesn't actually need to communicate with Builders because they can just build uh the L2 batch and then include it in the men pool uh either way I don't know that if that makes sense I talking about it from the L1 standpoint from the L1 standpoint because this my understanding right to like maybe bring this like start to add a little bit of context outside of how this is

technically going to work is I I want to now talk about this a bit from the standpoint of this is uh using ethereum as a sequencer to add to the value proposition of ethereum and I feel like this is a big part of why folks are excited about this because one there is frankly an element of like appreciation for eth the asset right which is like we want ethereum to be useful as a technology platform and that should theoretically translate into uh number grow up technology for eth the other you know the other thing that this is supposed to be help out with is um you you're expanding the value proposition of ethereum the platform as uh being responsible for interop because interops been at least from my standpoint the largest uh drop ball on the eth um

rollup Centric road map uh we don't really have a great solution for this and I guess one thing that never really comes up in these discussions uh but is something I'm like very curious about is what does the incentives look like for rollups to adopt something like this because this is where I think people tend to immediately take the perspective of either ethereum the network or the user and say hey this is great right like we get to use ethereum for more stuff so that's good for eth asset and and I'm a user and I want synchronous composability across all these rollups right win-win but you're forgetting about one critical stakeholder here which is the L2 and something that I'm starting to gain quite a bit of right

this has been a really tough BD cell from some of these shared sequencing networks to onboard and the reason is is because their incentive actually runs counter to this right they see themselves as Originators of orderflow and if you're leading L2 it's like yeah I understand why everyone wants to be integrated with me but what's my incentive to share all my valuable order flow with all of you and you know there's a I think another argument that you could have on the Bas sequencer side of things which is like hey right now even though I'm theoretically taking on some amount of liability issuing pre-confirmation from my centralize sequencer I'm getting quite a bit of value right I'm building a network effect uh and I'm happy to underwrite some amount of liability um if it's getting me much more sticky users on my on my network and there's actually a

great uh I saw a couple of questions on uh Twitter Buffalo from uh Buffalo from uho was asking what's the what's the um incentive from the L2 standpoint to adopt these based pre-confirmation because it does feel like you're seeding a little bit of value prop and I I would be curious like Marat and Jonas from the two of you like what has the reception been from the L2 standpoint on all of this yeah I mean uh generally l2s are very in interested but as I said they have very distinct profiles and the example the real world example I'd like to give here is um you know the EU a little bit you do you did have a leading L2 there England and and they opted to

uh you know stay out of the EU right so um you know but but but you know at the time that seemed like a good decision for them maybe but what you're seeing is a lot of new corporations that are spinning up or a lot of large corporations that are you know creating a new headquarters are now doing it in Ireland right so um because of uh ease of interoperability if you will they if they have a a worker who's in um you know another EU country it's very easy for that worker to migrate to the headquarters in Ireland whereas they have to get a visa and a whole bunch of headaches if if they have to go to England uh so uh I would think this would pertain to l2s as well uh yes there might be some very large uh L2 that you know opts out of this protocol

but over time the um interoperability benefits would ACR towards the ones who are using uh this uh you know shared system or synchronous composability in one one way or the another or another I don't think it's going to kind of kill the other L2 I think that large L2 will still continue to thrive but I I do think it'll be consequential to them uh the making this decision will basically be consequential at some degree I think there's also a point to be made so let's for a minute presuppose that all of the execution fees in a in a base or in a shared sequencing World also go to the rollup so as it is right now um I think there's a case to be made that if you have more composability with other rollups uh that might actually increase

execution fees on your own rollup because like a lot of uh transactions are made possible by like composing multiple rollups so I think um an argument for that can be made but then also just more on the regulatory side like if you run a single sequencer um that might become a problem for you in the future uh and and which is not not great like for your roll up either way so I think like from a regulatory standpoint it might be just smart to to start thinking about Outsourcing this to um a World War I resistant Network like the ethereum L1 all right I'm just gonna te you up here I know you've got some strong

thoughts on this I be I'd be curious oh yeah no I um I so Mike and I were joking about this beforehand because it's like the decentralization for regulatory reasons I I think is um it's a Forward Thinking argument but I basically say like the rules here are so unclear it feels like it's hard to put that as the primary motivation for doing something it's like right now people bring up like a money transmitter problem but like circle with usdc and their their cctp protocol is already letting anybody run move money between chain

I thought that was a regulatory risk for them as like a money transmitter but they like apparently got comfortable with it with lawyers and whatever else so my my point is that it's just uh I push pretty back pretty hard on the uh do this for regulatory reasons uh because I just think it's like the least clear uh argument I do agree though with do this for robustness and like uh like liveness consideration to make get shut down that I very much agree with too so like you know one of the arguments like if you really dig into how some of these centralized sequences are set up uh I think um I

think publicly arbit Trump said you know they run uh two sequencers that they could hot swap at any moment and then they have like three others geographically placed in different parts of the world um seems okay but like not great uh uh from a from a kind of like robustness perspective so that's my only Mike was laughing because he was pushing as like decentralization for regulatory reasons is like a pet peeve of mine yeah no I think I think that makes sense yeah maybe maybe the liveness reason and like the the composability reason is is stronger uh at least now because we're not really sure what it's going to look like in in the future yeah one one something else maybe to agree

with Hart from a slightly different angle is one of the criticisms that I personally think is somewhat Fair um is you know if you try to decentralize everything on that's going on on l2s as much as it is on ethereum it's kind of like what's the point we're now you know is this a little bit of a hat on a hat situation where we already have ethereum to be extremely decentralized you know if you layer another ethereum scale you know World War III resistant system of decentralization on top of that I would push I would push folks on this podcast to explain to me how that isn't going to add cost I feel like it has to add cost almost definitionally um and isn't the whole purpose of having ethereum be as

decentralized as it is optimizing for uh solo stakers things like that very low Hardware requirements so that we we can push the limits on the layer twos right and actually be a little bit more efficient because we've got this base life decentralization so what would you say to some of these critiques that sometimes get levied at uh shared sequencer designs or you know running auctions on top of auctions that were kind of needlessly adding a lot of cost and complexity here um I I'd say you know I originally had this auctions on top of auctions view not good kind of uh view uh but I'm increasingly seeing that in real world there's many auctions on top of auctions and um and when you think about it like

settlement and and trafi is one example of this like we gave this example of Visa giving you you know a pre-confirmation but really the money settles with the bank you know three days later or something well guess what that bank's money actually settles with another bank like two days three days later and that bank settles with the FED in in a few days later and the FED settles with the other fed a few days later and it's like this whole kind of layers of abstraction of the settlement but the system works in the sense that like when I go to the store and buy something I'm able to purchase it and and at the end of the day that's what I care about as a US uh so I feel like there might be a similar uh case here where maybe we do have auctions on top of auctions maybe a

bunch of these auctions get replaced by something like a single unified auction swab and and that that might be good but at the end of the day if we deliver the experience that uh users uh need then uh I think a lot of this is just going to be running in the background and and then we can let the free market figure out which one's better and I feel the same way about l2s being uh you know a centralized sequencer or a shared uh I'm sorry a decent calized sequencer um I do think there are ways to decentralize your sequencers Beyond making it centralized today you can just have like two sequencers and one could do it for one day and the other could do it for another day for example just like some basic level decentralization and then you can kind of progress from there if

you wanted to uh but I do think that the the inaction we've seen on this front and kind of action being more on the research side uh you know points to the fact that this is not a number one concern for the users that are using those chains um maybe I'm wrong but uh you know that's what what it seems to me like yeah and I I think the World War I sorry if I if I can add a little bit to that I think the World War I scenario is like uh unrealistic in a way uh it's it's doubted as as one of the the big advantages and and it is in a way but it if you want like a very uh efficient system that that can level uh or that can achieve the same level of efficiency

uh and and ux as a centralized sequencer you're going to have to Outsource things to sophisticated entities so in the end uh it's not going to be completely uh run by or at least in my view by by the L1 um May the L1 proposers uh there is going to be some level of Outsourcing and sophistication but it's going to be better than the status quo uh that's that's kind of the way I think of it so I want to push for for a second just on like what the users actually want here again just playing off some of the points you guys both made here so okay uh first off on an one question for you morod because curious your thoughts on this um from an L1 perspective do

users really on l1s my sense is users don't demand pre-confirmation faster than like what they're currently getting they're like kind of used to this 12 second kind of confirmation time depends on who by user yeah so I'm saying users clicking around transactions in their metamask like that's what they've kind of gotten used to do you disagree with that um I do think it would still be an ux enhancement but the the users I'm thinking of that who need L1 pre-confirmation are actually L2 sequencers who are trying to get their blobs on there and likely Searchers uh who are you know doing Atomic stuff or you know stat ARB or or other things right so um it just depends on the class

that we're talking about so on that I actually saw your um I watched your eth Denver talk and I think there's an interesting and fairly nuanced Point here around like blob's um blob's getting confirmed on L1 as blob usage goes up and be like latency timing games related to Mev um so just to push on that point for a second uh what you're concerned about which I think is a very valid concern is that we've introduced blobs it's made l2s very cheap for the time being um but these blobs are huge bits of data relative to the network and propagating them at like Mev speeds is very hard to do which means we now have a risk that at times of high congestion

on ethereum blobs might get dropped or might have to pay fees equivalent to like L1 gas fees and basically their cost advantages will go away that that right yeah pretty much uh basically we've ignored this uh kind of dollar per kilobyte uh real metric that that's going on basically okay so there's a very real Point here from um from like a kind of like a Mev uh and cost efficiency perspective that without something else getting figured out uh blobs could actually get really expensive in times of high congestion and pre-confirmation on L1 would be one way to solve that yes um and and and really the the the important point there is that when

you pre-confirmation something and and everybody on the network knows it you can transfer that data ahead of time and and and that's really the kind of the disengagement of the timing game from the from the size of the blob um so yeah it's it's not just the ux that the pre-confirmation provides it's that when when the knowledge is is there by by Network actors the network can take actions to um do things that it otherwise would not be able to that argument makes perfect sense to me from like a network efficiency and like it's I'll call it Mev but it's like Network efficiency type perspective um if we bring it though back to uh the multi-chain kind of theme of the the season um things we know we need for l2s

is we need fast pre-confirmation um which we are currently getting from centralized sequencers and we're like a decentralized version of that seems better how much better the decentralization of that uh centralized sequencer is is sort of a topic of debate where I think the primary Pros for it are like liveness and Regulatory concerns and seems like the primary con would be there's probably some added cost and then the other major benefit would be some form of composability that uh a shared sequencer could give us and then Mike's other point here is also like ethereum value capture where if we make ethereum be the central hub for um

for sequencing every uh that's seems good for ethereum Value capture am I missing anything here no I think that's very much in line I mean ultimately you know let's say you're at some vending machine and you you you want a can of Coke like do you want to wait 12 seconds for that can of Coke or do you want it now so if we can enable uh for people to get their can of Coke fast and as they want it uh I do think that's a net positive for ethereum adoption in in very kind of mainstream use cases and and chances are that vending machine might not be even aware that it's using ethereum underneath maybe it's using some sort of card Network that is an L3 and it's you know rolling up to an L2 that's using

ethereum right so um yeah I do think it's a net positive for ethereum to be able to provide these experiences yeah my only push is that in the world we're going down on ethereum mainnet it's kind of like we've kind of given up on trying to have super fast transaction fee it's just so so expensive you're maybe solving that but like most people have already been pushed to like the L2 version uh if they want fast speeds um that's that's my only point there but all the other parts around efficiently uh efficiently efficiently allocating resources on the network on L1 the pre-confirmation aspects there make total sense to me he everyone wanted to give a big shout out to today's title sponsor SE now I want to talk to you

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blockworks and again the link there is in the bottom of the show notes click that so I know that I sent you cheers guys our users going to care where their pre-confirmation comes from right I think like that's maybe what you're getting at a little bit which is like I as a user I play some transa like some swap on a decks and I'm either going to get actually there is one source of pre-con one potential pre- Comer that we haven't talked about here which is actually Amazon in your example Marat which is the app the app can issue these pre-confirmation and ultimately like I'm sort of an app Maxi like my assumption is that you we talk about users right now interacting with like ethereum or rollup or a sequence like all that's going to be invisible right like the

only emotional connection in the in the end game is going to be with apps so actually there's probably a very likely outcome that the pre-c Comfort the relevant pre-c comfort from the perspective of the user is the application and like I guess what if I had to like push a little bit in terms of like when I hear this like base sequencing talk and um like yes I understand because I have a rough understanding 5% of what you guys understand but I have a rough understanding of like the network design and the actual assurances that you get from a pre-confirmation issued by an L1 proposer as opposed to a sequencer or an app but is a user gonna understand that and are they going to care and I think maybe Hart that was behind your question about like we've already pushed a lot of people off of L1 they're already getting

these pre-confirmation from sequencers like where is the pressing need for them to get adopted by a one pre confirmations uh yeah I mean I would say ultimately like if we go back to Amazon example like you do care if it's Amazon and if Amazon gives you the word then then then you're fine right um if there were some other entities that Amazon said hey look you know Johnny delivery.com is is telling you it'll be there you might be like I'm not so sure about that uh but you you'll probably piggy back off of Amazon said Johnny delivery.com is fine so then must be right uh but you know ultimately uh the the destination or or or I guess the source uh of your pre-confirmation uh

does matter from credibility standpoint but yeah I agree that uh apps are in a great position to deliver this for their apps we've actually talked to an uh app recently who wants to utilize um you know M commit pre confirmations for their app basically for their app they would be the only ones who can credibly issue uh pre-confirmation and if not you know the transaction would revert when it comes to that app so uh there are already mechanisms that uh dap developers are are kind of uh thinking about to do their own pre-confirmation uh so yeah this is a modular world right so um you know everyone should be able to uh give uh the the the user experience that they want uh for their users yeah I think applications giving out pre-confirmation is is uh that

should also work but they must uh collaborate with with people further down the stack to be able to to provide credible pre-confirmation right like uh for example yeah the the example from morat like they need to have some sort of assurances that they can actually execute the the pre-confirmation um and on that I've seen a lot of talk recently about like application specific sequencing where an application sequences all transactions for their specific State and in that case like the the application would be uh in a very good position to to ex uh to to to give out pre-confirmation so yeah maybe related further further research I've got a question on this is going to sound

a bit like a technical question but I do think it's pretty relevant is one of the in in most of the implementations that I've sort of seen sketched out about this there has to be some sort of pre-confirmation tip right consider this like the priority like analogous to the priority fee that users might pay interacting with Ethel one you have to play pay a tip to the issue of your pre- Comer what does the how how does that pricing work and I actually see challenges from the P from the perspective of like if you're a builder issuing that pre-c confer versus if you're an L1 validator the challenge I see on the the Builder side Marat I think you might have an answer to this actually that's pretty cool answer but the challenge is it actually runs counter to it's kind of like the

difference between an X poost and an X anti auction right like what we see in Mev on L1 is Builders want to wait as long as they possibly can before they actually end up submitting their block because the longer you wait the more information that you have and the more profitably you can build a block you want to drag out the time that you're running this auction so if you uh if how how are these Builders then pricing right uh pre-confirmation that get issued like I don't know half a second into the block right and isn't that kind of against their interest um I think you know the answer on the Builder side but actually why don't you answer that and then I've got a separate question for the L1 proposer side of this sure uh you know there's been uncomfortable truth

when it comes to pre-confirmation and that uh you know if you uh users want you know as soon as possible pre-confirmation so as soon as they send a uh a a tip or transaction they want the pre-confirmation and then uh you know it's in the best interest of the Builder or proposer to wait until the end of the slot and then to give all of these pre confirmations uh so you know we've come up with a Decay mechanism uh on on Mev commit to kind of combat this basically uh as soon as let's say you bid one eth for your uh pre-confirmation bid it starts decaying in real time uh and then there's multiple entities that are competing to give you a commitment right so basically if there are two Builders and one gives you a commitment right away and the other waits till halfway through the slot now the the the

Builder who gave it to you first essentially has a has a monetary economic Advantage uh on what their block value might be so uh they're competing and their incentive to give it to you as soon as possible now this may still lead in situations where uh you know your tip isn't just not high enough and you're not getting a commitment or you're you know trying to get a pre-confirmation on a very contentious state that no one's going to really give it to and uh you know then you have to deal with that uh but you know when it comes to pricing these things uh you know I can go into pricing a little bit more but maybe I'll pause there to um allow Jonas to kind of open well I I have a slightly different question for Jonas which is all right so this is a Challen this is Challenge from

the perspective of the Builder because it runs up against the sort of incentives of an auction and pricing But ultimately like Builders are really sophisticated entities right they've got a ton of money they've got a lot of expertise like we'll figure out some kind of way to appropriately price this I guess my question on from the standpoint of an L1 proposer is how is an L1 proposer maybe more specifically well even a really professional Staker like a chorus one or a figment like their internal core competency is running nodes right it's not like auction pricing so how are they going to PR price this but then that extends even further to your average solo Staker who's you know theoretically be some guy living in the woods somewhere running

his Raspberry Pi like how's he gonna be like oh yep I know how to price this auction and yeah yeah so how's that all gonna work right so no that's that's a great question I just want to reiterate that we're not uh like the way that we want to build this is allow L1 proposers to delegate all of these very sophisticated duties to sophisticated actors through something that looks like M boost right so in the end what what they're doing is providing uh uh block space like guaranteed block space to allow anyone else to to kind of sequence and precon confirm uh Etc so in the end they don't really have to do all of these sequencing and pricing

because we agree that they probably can't like maybe there there are some stakers like Ros one you said that could do it but then you really uh you run into the problem of solo stakers not being able to do that and and the the centralization vectors that that creates so in the end I think on this question um we it looks very similar like morat where Builders will probably be the entities that that are being delegated to um and and they they are in a position to prizes in a much better way okay then if that is the if that is the answer then I have a question for this entire call which is why basically the way that I would look at

this and this is sort of a highle perspective that I have on blockchains like you can trace the difference in every L1 blockchain to what the role of the proposer should be in terms of its Hardware requirements what it's required to perform like this is what we expect of the of the proposer role I think broadly you could interpret pre-confirmation is ethereum starting to walk back some of its initial design philosophy of pushing complexity to the edges and initially the design Philosophy for ethereum was we want this to be very like you know we want the L1 proposer to be super simple not very complicated so we can optimize for solo stakers and the way that at least I'm interpreting this is like well like actually uh maybe we want them to do a little bit more than we initially

thought and we're not going to put that in protocol right we're not going to make it like uh you know we're not going to include it in like a hard fork or something like that but they can opt in Via reaking but then you also you're increasing your principal agent Problem by just delegating it to a builder and like I'm starting to question like if ultimately we adopt pre-confirmation we're asking our L1 proposers to do more than they're currently doing today but our L1 proposers aren't set up to do that so then they just end up delegating it to a builder why don't we just change the spec on our L1 proposers and just make them bigger and beefier well I think actually there there might be like a slight research Trend that's pointing towards that like with with execution tickets uh with with

the separation of Beacon chain proposals and like execution proposal or yeah I think that's the distinction they make execution tickets I think execution tickets exactly and so what it's pointing to is that you want a very unsophisticated decentral decentralized validator set to be able to enforce censorship resistance and properties like these through through the means of like inclusion lists but in the end since we're already Outsourcing like sophisticated execution to builders Etc uh we might as well kind of um put it in inside of the protocol and separate execution proposers from from like Beacon proposers and the bean proposers

would uphold censorship resistance would would keep basically checks on the execution proposers uh whereas they would be able to fulfill any any sort of like very sophisticated tasks um and yeah execution tickets is one form of that but I think I think there are many like there's a post on on rain mod staking for example from from barnabe from the EF that I think is is super interesting and it also uh outlines a more General design of execution tickets which Super interesting um don't know if that answers your question but well Mike yeah like I I like it though and I actually Jonas I think I agree with this approach where I think

it's okay to have a network where if certain actors go offline there's like a degradation of service like things get a bit worse but they don't stop right and so my take on kind of what you're saying here and even your proposal is you're saying the um the the Builder of these um of forget the term you're using but like the Builder of these complicated uh entities it's being outsourced from the proposer that's running this AVS and you don't want those guys to go offline but if they did the network will still keep operating and I think that seems like a useful design principle in the same way that you know you want

let's say Equity Mark if we do make some trafi examples if Equity markets like if Citadel goes offline they don't break it just maybe gets less efficient for a bit Yeah Yeah I think that's a good analogy yeah one thing to also add here just in terms of sort of there there is the possibility of decentralizing the Builder role which is being worked on sort of by like Suave I know vitalic has talked about this quite a bit but I think there are actual credible very legitimate attempts at decentralizing that role over a period of time it's going to be tricky going to take some time but I think you could also look at the assumption that Builders are always going to be decentralized entities is not necessarily being accurate either so

yeah true I mean we we use commitments to kind of have this happen out of protocol so you know for blob pre confirmations for example we think the relays in in the best position to do it pricing them is not as sophisticated you don't have to kind of be aware of defi transactions and then you know you're your pre-confirmation you know act in uh by by kind of coordinating these actors you can you can achieve these uh you know goals a little sooner but yes ultimately we do

need groundup designs that are you know decentralized by by uh by Foundation Jens we're in our closing minutes here I I suppose you know if we wanted to bookend the conversation here and leave listeners with I don't know any sort of thoughts about you know this is the multi-chain season and the thing that we we we wanted an explanation of what pre-confirmation are uh maybe within the context of how it's changing the role of the L1 proposer you know how it could potentially solve the interrupt challenges that we've seen on l2s you know we've indirectly talked about Mev we probably could have done whole episode just on the Mev implications Beyond this as well but you know if you wanted to uh leave listeners with you know one thought or book end the convers the conversation that we've had today

hey what what do you want to leave them with um I would say pre confirmations are real they're they're coming sooner than you think and um they're going to enhance not just ux but usability of the entire ecosystem for most of the actors if not all uh and and it's just a foundational primitive I would say that's going to enable all sorts of design spaces I mean there was a workshop done by flash Bots where you know I talked about a potential of a real-time Dex that's powered by pre-confirmation uh there's just many new design verticals that are enabled by this new primitive and and it's it's a very exciting time to be in ethereum I would

say yeah I think maybe what I would say is that base sequencing and base prec confirmations the advantages uh that it has maybe over shared sequencing that we didn't discuss in this call is also uh L1 L2 interoperability I just want to say that that's also a main a huge selling point I think um for rollups to upt into this and and I think it will enable some very cool very cool features awesome well guys um we we really really appreciate uh the two of you coming on here and educating our audience about this it's a super interesting topic and you know when you when you search which I often do uh you know for things on like YouTube or

Spotify there's like really not that much content out there about pre-confirmation so hopefully this can be a little bit of a foundational uh you know explainer for folks um and you know Marat or or or Yas if if folks want to find out more about uh the work that you guys are doing or follow you personally like what's the best way for just people to stay up to date with this and and find out more about where you guys were work on prime. XYZ I would say and our Twitter's also um but yeah if you're curious enough you can very easily kind of scatter the map from there yeah it's chain mount. for us uh and we're planning to release some posts also about base pre-confirmation soon to to make the uh the yeah the things that people can read a bit more interesting

as well awesome fellas thank you so much this was a blast uh we really appreciate it thank you all right man that was a great episode I you know I was a little I'll be honest I was a little nervous going in when you talk about something as technical as pre-c confirmations it's always a bit risky but I feel like we did a good job of getting into some of the details but also zooming out as well yeah and given some context yeah the thing I wanted to push on is that pre-confirmation do exist I I agree with morat's definition very much of this like credible commitment it's incredible heads up um but you're getting that today from centralized sequencers where the credibility is just their reputation right and the fact that they want like their token price to go up they want to

be the leading L2 all that other kind of stuff right so optimism lying about a pre-confirmation would be really really really bad for them um and so I think first of all I think morat's push for pre-confirmation on L1 I I am a little bit skeptical about whether like users care about that and I don't think they really do I don't think I think anyone that wants a fact faster confirmation is going to an L2 today um but I do think his points around how it's going to make ethereum better from like a network efficiency perspective and there's some fairly technical bits around blob space which just made l2s so much cheaper um actually getting very

expensive without things like what he's working on I thought that was a really interesting point but that's like quite in the weeds too yeah I thought there were a couple so I'm in complete agreement with you by the way on I I personally think there this is obviously going to be a technical discussion where you know who there are different assumptions that go into a pre-confirmation based on Who's acting as the pre-c confer right it's not the same to get a pre-confirmation from a builder versus an L1 proposer versus a sequencer versus an app uh but personally I just don't think 99% of users are going to understand that or care very much is the is the honest reality um but I do so but one of the you know one of the pushbacks that I think he gave that was

good is when we were talking about you know is this just a bit of a hat on a hat situation and are we recreating a lot of the decentralization on L2 of ethereum that we have on L1 and is it auctions on top of auctions I think his point was super valid and something that I've waffled on but I'm ultimately trending towards that which like if you look at the system of how anything works like there are many layers to it and it does feel really complicated and you know it's very tempting sometimes to look at ethereum and be like why does it have to be so complicated it's like well it's a Global Network you know it's a global Computing Network and these things do have many layers and different auctions that get run and it is very complicated and I thought that intuitively sat really well and made a

lot of sense there you know I agree but I think it actually argues both ways so both these guys are facing so when we talk about pre-confirmation for decentralizing l2s um we have it's like a shared sequencer base sequencer type concept and you have this incredibly difficult coordination problem of how are you going to get these different L2 net Works to opt in to the same I'm going to call it the same concept the same shared sequence or the same the same source of pre-confirmation and that coordination problem I think is really really tricky and you alluded to it too where I think there's a lot of reasons why l2s don't want to give this up and I think we can

go a bit deeper into that um so when morat was talking about like hey yeah like there are auctions on top of auctions and like you look at traditional finance and when money moves from A to B it goes through like seven different intermediaries I'd say like half the reason why that's true though is because there was some path dependency around how traditional Finance got built there were sort of existing systems in place and people that didn't want to let go of control and all these other things that said hey okay no no no I'm not gonna I'm not going to agree to this other better standard um you've got to like use my thing and then somebody hacked together another auction on top of auction to make it work so I I kind of think that point argues both ways where I very much

agree that there's going to be these layers of complexity but because we have a number of entities that want control and don't want to give up certain rights I'm not so sure how many of them are going to opt into some concept of shared sequenc or Shar to deliver shared pre-confirmation um I'm not really sure how that's going to happen unless the uh opportunity cost for not doing so is pretty huge I totally agree with you I think time and time again we've just under valued this like incentive which is just natural to humanity capitalism at large is like I want to do my thing

right I want to create value in my little area and it makes a lot of sense and I think this is where sometimes the folks that are very focused on network design miss this is if you're looking at it from the perspective of ethereum the network and ethereum the and way Bitcoin as well salana as well Cosmos as well like people tend to really look at it from the perspective of the network but all of the users and the entrepreneurs and the app developers are looking at it from their own perspective and those things don't necessarily go oneto one and I think because again we're so early and because so many of these systems haven't been built yet again we focused a lot on like how is this actually going to work as opposed to um maybe this isn't really a technical problem at all

and it's not a question of how it could work right we have the technology it'd be really easy to make this work it's a question of how do you align the social incentives and that I think is where we need to push more on because that's the big challenge yeah so on yeah no yes that that is that I agree with um we're in agreement there so based sequencing the idea of ethereum being the sequencer for every L2 that connects to it and having some network of uh shared sequencing where pre-confirmation come from a single um con cept a single mechanism that everybody has bought into I like that idea I think that's cool um I'm not sure it's going to happen and so

um morod also made the analogy of like the EU right so the EU uh group together to have shared Market shared immigration all these like good things and um uh then like England dropped out right uh and I think the analogy for L2 I think the biggest value prop to op opting into some sort of shared sequencing or like based sequencing would be composable interoperability um and B this would basically be the idea of being able to do a flash loan between two l2s I'll use that as my concrete example and then my push would be okay

that would be cool and I want that to exist but is that a big enough need is is there a big enough need for that that these l2s will give up some degree of their sovereignty and some degree of their own uh sequencing fees and control and all that in order to enable that and that's that I'm very unsure of okay I agree with you but here's one big wild card that could really influence whether or not this gets critical mass is Lio and the reason why that has Lio has such an impact is because of the incredibly high percentage of you know ethereum proposers that they've got on their Network and if you were to do

if one of these either you know Prime EV or chainbound or whatever were to do some very Savvy BD work with Lio and get that entire proposer set to opt into this suddenly right there you know you have a really large percentage of L1 proposers and then then once you look at it from that standpoint it's like well maybe I can get this massive percentage of L1 proposers opt into this thing and then suddenly I do actually have this very credibly neutral you could build a lot of stuff with that you could build an exchange you could build whatever then that's a really compelling value proposition I think so I do I do sort of think if you were if someone were to figure out like how to make that work uh that could be pretty

interesting maybe they give some someone an idea about that yeah yeah no if you get Lio and coinbase right and if you get like something like that to opt into base sequencing and there is a place here where like you you get good vibes from doing this too like if you get all the intelligencia and ethereum pushing for this and you get the overall like eth whales and uh eth thought leaders to really push for this outcome I think there's a chance there's a possibility but you know the other approach here what I think is probably more real istic is you do have three ecosystems three main EOS you're

probably going to have four ecosystems or um where you're going to have all of the optimism super chains kind of having some sense of shared sequencing is like some way of kind of doing this and uh some sort of decentralized pre-confirmation coming from that system you're gonna have the same thing with arbitrum and you're G to have polygon and their egg layer doing something similar um but those are going to be separate Islands if you will and then the fourth would be like everybody else that wants to do uh bass sequencing or maybe you get one of the three other ecosystems to also do basic sequencing I kind of feel like if I were forced to make a prediction that's kind of how it end up um we'll see I like that prediction Hart what did you make of I

I'm conscious of this because I feel like I make this point quite a bit but that point of did you agree with that whole point about you know we're sort of redefining the role of the L1 proposer we're asking them to do this this was originally the observation here was the way that ethereum and Cosmos thinks about their validators are totally different right in ethereum you're trying to make them you know dumb and simple and unopinionated and in Cosmos it's literally like what can your validator do for you you know uh like ask them to do more stuff and it feels like yeah we're actually swinging a little back bit back more Cosmos here with the important caveat and stipulation that we're not requiring the ethereum proposers to opt into this but again we're sort of tipping the balance

of incentives that I think pretty strongly encourages them and they did Justin Drake did address this in his original piece that he wrote which is exactly what yonas said which is that you can you can delegate your ability to issue pre-confirmation do all that pricing Etc to to builders and I guess I'm still wrapping my own head around what I really think about this but you know what do you think about this changing role of the of the one proposer is it a problem that you know we're asking them to do these things but then just delegating it to a builder so it's kind of like well why are we even doing that at all then I I mean what did you think about that whole perspective so I actually think it makes sense and I think it's happening with

igen layer anyways so Mike I'm pretty sure you're gonna do a season on IG layer and you should because it's fascinating but like the whole the whole reaking thing means we're already asking all of these additional ask of proposers um and that's coming um and I I think the idea of well if I'm now a proposer a solo Staker or whatever else um I opt in some additional set of uh commitments that I make um in my reaking kind of contract and where I act do I trust some other Builder to tell me to do the work for me and then I just like

sign off on it maybe and maybe that's actually like a totally fair way to in a sense get the best of both worlds where you can have highly sophisticated actors doing really complicated work with like really high Hardware requirements and network requirements and da but um it still gets kind of checkpointed or proposed by a decentralized set actually in a certain sense seems like a pretty elegant way where you get uh this sort of common community of ethereum with some very high degree of decentralization um well having all the advantages of the cosmos ecosystem where like what did my validator do for me you can you can kind of make all those asks they just sort of get outsourced maybe

more complicated but I I think it does it's a pretty interesting design yeah I think it is too uh and I actually think it's I think it's I agree that it's inevitable that it's already happening with igen layer um there was also I I'll plug another really interesting episode of Uncommon Core that hu and John charbono did with um ancar and shoot I'm blanking on his other name I'm really sorry but it was a great episode on the sort of future of staking on ethereum and um you know at the same time that we're starting to question like the role of what an L1 proposer ultimately should look like there are a lot of big questions being asked around e monetary policy and issuance and if we were to Target uh you

know A reduced um a percentage of State today like how does that impact the validator Set uh I I I really do think there are some really fascinating questions going on people are starting to question again like what the role of the L1 proposer should be um and I don't know I I like I am a broken record on this so I understand listeners belel if you're just like Mike just shut up saying this but it just really does feel like we're converging around uh you know a similar perspective on what a proposer should look like across many different networks albe it with really different flavors and and I would say there it does feel like it's a meaningful distinction to me uh we were talking about this a little bit off air that the the basic required specs for an an

ethereum proposer is still extremely lightweight so that if uh you know God forbid there was some sort of Crackdown that maybe we lose some functionality but it's still like robust to to a Crackdown and and I really do think that's one of the things that ethereum main chain has over some of its like beefier competitors like the Celestia or Salas of the world like I think the um censorship resistant properties are are stronger on ethereum the network um so I don't know I think just to correct you before Celestia people hit you in the reply Celestia does have really low Hardware requirements but I know what you meant right I know what you meant Celestia Celestia has low Hardware requirements for their light nodes they have really beefy uh validators on the uh on the main chain but personally uh

just just for Celestia folks out there listening I actually think that's probably the most El design like I I'm a huge fan of that it's like it's basically what we're saying that that's what we're asking here is like hey um maybe to like really zoom out here for a second which dangerous to do right at the end is to say hey like we want applications to run but we don't want ultimately to be beholden to like one centralized actor that does that what we're really asking is for a committee instead of one centralized entity doing an action we want a committee of different actors to do that action like what should those committee members ultimately end up looking like one way to still maintain a high amount of functionality while asking a committee to do a thing is to do what ethereum's doing uh the base requirement

is very low a certain subset of that committee is going to opt into doing being like beefier uh Celestia kind of bakes that in and says hey actually um these these mostly we're just going to assume that like these are kind of beefier but we have this nice um measure thing called light nodes and data availability ability sampling that like obviates some of the risks around having fewer beefier notes it's just like this is what I mean by convergence it's all different flavors of the same thing and uh so yeah that's kind of and we like ethereum's Flavor generally I think is pretty good and I think it's actually like all this stuff is pretty good for Value accretion to eth too which is a point I think you keep making and it's a good one totally I also think that the I think eth is already kind of won in a

sense like maybe this is a pretty controversial opinion I think it could almost just sit on its hand and let it the liquidity um and sort of network effects take hold I know we got to run here heart this was a really fun one uh this next episode we're going to be talking with Kyle Sani specifically about Network effects I got to shout out code who keeps poking fun at podcasters who are asking where does value acrew in the modular stack code we're making this one for you my man we're making this one just for you let's do it all right sweet dude this is a really fun one I'll see you next week next time bye hey everyone want to give a final shout out to this episode's title sponsor SE now there are a whole bunch of really exciting reasons to be building on say V2 outside of just

parallelization I want you to head over to say. to looking into building on their public devnet again click the link at the bottom of this episode and head over to say. start building something [Music] today