Could Social Media Discontent Help the Decentralized Web? - Ep.070

Transcript

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unconfirmed, the podcast that reveals how the marketing names in crypto are reacting to the week's top headlines and gets the inside scoop on what they see on the horizon. I'm your host, Laura Shin. Don't forget that Melton Demiris of CoinShares and Jalak Joban Prutra of Future Perfect Ventures and I are all teaching a crypto workshop at Omega Institute in Ryback, New York from September 20th to 22nd. If talking crypto while doing yoga, eating healthy food and enjoying the outdoors is your jam, then go to the show notes now for the link to sign up. Also, check us out on YouTube, search for the Unchained Podcast channel and subscribe. And if you're not yet subscribed to my weekly newsletter, go now to UnchainedPodcast.com to sign up. CipherTrace makes it easy for exchanges and crypto businesses to comply with cryptocurrency and time money

laundering laws. Avoid illegal sources of funds and maintain healthy banking relationships. CipherTrace is helping you grow the crypto economy by keeping it safe and secure. Coindesk, the number one blockchain and crypto media outlet, is hosting Consensus in New York City. Tickets are on sale now at www.consensus2019.com, where you can save $300 with promo code UNCONFIRMED300. Today's guest is Ashley Tyson, co-founder of the Web3 Foundation. And we're live here in Berlin. Welcome, Ashley.

Thank you. Thank you for coming to Berlin. Thanks for having me. I'm really enjoying it. My first time here. Oh, really? That's amazing. Okay. Well, we have a lot to catch up on then. Yeah. And the weather's good, which is nice too. Until tomorrow. Right. So I guess we'll see the other side. So what does the Web3 Foundation do? So the Web3 Foundation was created... about two years ago now. And its main function was to be created to support the Polkadot protocol. So we helped with the initial token sale of Polkadot, and we also are helping support the launch of it. But in addition, Web3 Foundation has a greater vision that all these decentralized protocols need to come together to create a very functional and user-friendly decentralized web.

So Web3 Foundation also works on supporting other projects in the space outside of the Polkadot network. Great. Yeah. I, you know, think it's in that respect, similar to parity where they work on multiple blockchains. So here we exist in this world where the web is basically centralized at the moment. And the Web3 Foundation's vision is pretty different from that. So how do you plan to create a broader movement to get people to to switch from these centralized services? Yeah, it's a good question. I think we'll have a lot more questions like that as the time goes on and we're slowly starting to figure things out. But right now we're obviously in the infrastructure building phase and that's kind of like what we believe with Polkadot and

the other protocols that we're helping to support. It's very difficult to build kind of like any enterprise ready or kind of like any mainstream adoption ready services on top of what already exists. I think we're focusing first and foremost on that. But I think we're also looking to figure out how we can bring people into the ecosystem. Obviously, we have a core group of people who are passionate about decentralized technology in the space already, and that's great. But how do we move and migrate people from these kind of Web 2.0 projects into the Web 3.0 space? And how do we give consumers more option and more privacy? And do you have an inkling at the moment of how you're going to start making that shift? I think we're already starting to see it just in the kind of nature of the conversations

around social media and how people are starting to kind of think of it more in the light of surveillance capitalism. So I actually got my career, I started it in social media in 2008 with the rise of Facebook. And at that time, it was pretty innocuous, right? You're building Facebook apps for these brands and it's really cool and it's giving people access to content that they want to want to see. And then slowly that started migrating into a conversation around big data. And big data was kind of, you know, this like darling of the advertising industry. How are you using consumer data to serve them more relevant ads? How are you kind of convincing them to buy your product based upon their preferences that they've indicated on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, on all these social media sites that we've known to

love and have grown to kind of, I think we're seeing a disassociation with that now. So big data has turned into, at least in our industry, in this kind of blockchain web 3.0 industry, I think as more of a surveillance capitalism is what we're calling it. And it's still very much the darling of the advertising industry. I think we're seeing that with Facebook's recent announcement that they are being fined between $3 and $5 billion for their privacy exploits, but they're also rising stock this morning on that news. Clearly, advertisers are really excited about the promise of using Facebook's data to target consumers. But I think we're starting to see this movement growing about people who are interested in leaving these centralized services that they've

are starting to realize no longer serve their best interests. And I think that's just a natural organic movement as people are starting to become more aware with things like Cambridge Analytica breaking and... all these revelations coming out. So I think it's just kind of actually a natural progression. And we would like to be here at the Web3 Foundation to support people who work in that space right now to amend kind of the error of their ways. And I speak from that personally, as that's kind of where I got my start in this space as well. Oh, interesting. Well, are you finding that there are people that you're seeing that are actually... coming into this space because they're motivated by that? Like, are you noticing greater interest in what you guys are doing? Yeah, I think certainly when we had kind of the peak ICO hype,

there were a lot of people that were interested and we're now seeing, I think, a slowdown in the interest in coming into the space. But I think that we're seeing the people who are coming in are actually really much more aligned with our values because they're not so concerned with kind of the speculative aspects of the space. So I actually think it's a really good thing in that way. We're finding people who are leaving positions in these kind of, you know, Silicon Valley darling type companies and coming into the space and trying to figure out how they can contribute and how they can learn more. And are they motivated by things like what happened with Cambridge Analytica and Facebook? I think it's kind of everyone's individual preferences as to why they're in the space. But certainly there's, I think, a growing

distrust of of Facebook and these social media companies. And forgetting just social media, just about how, you know, Fortune 500 corporates are utilizing this data and kind of, you know, serving up things that serve their shareholders' best interests rather than their users' best interest. And for you at the Web3 Foundation, are you trying to mostly target crypto people in general as your, like, early strategy? Or are you instead trying to create technologies that will be used by people who... don't know that crypto is involved in any sense or, you know, don't know much about it? Yeah, I think it's both. But I think certainly right now, since we are in that infrastructure phase, we are more focused on the people who are in the space right now, the people who are developing technology in the blockchain space. So I

would say that the core of Web3 Foundation's audience right now is those developers and researchers. Certainly we employ a lot or we, you know, are looking to give grants to a number of those teams. we think that they form the foundation of what will be something that perhaps an everyday user might not realize is based on blockchain technology, but is something that they can use quite easy and seamlessly. And so then, like in your view, what does WoV3 actually look like? Like if this comes to fruition? Optionality. I think... An ideal Web3 is something where users have choice. So if you would like to choose to use, you know, one blockchain over another, if, you know, that is kind of an option

available to you. If you would like to choose to sell your data, that is an option available to you, too. I think true decentralization means that we have these options and that there's no kind of one centralized authority that will kind of control our experience. So... Yeah, I just wonder if that's something that the average person is aware of. I mean, I feel like there are certain circles where people are very aware of everything that's been going on with Facebook, and I think there are others where people don't really pay attention. Are you seeing specifically, who are you seeing that's not aware? Because it's possible, right, that we all have our own little bubbles. But I'm noticing even amongst my parents' retirement community, this general distrust in Facebook. And it could be my influence amongst my parents. But

it was shocking to me that a bunch of 70-year-olds in Florida are talking about how Facebook is not the kind, benevolent source that they thought it was. Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, the fact that the vast majority of Facebook users are still on the platform at least indicates that there's some apathy around the news. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it does provide a really great service, right? So it was kind of a convenient place to gather and share information with your friends and to learn about news and to discover new products.

And all these things are actually really great. And I don't think that... We should discount that. But I do think we should be considering how we're putting forth privacy enhancing technologies and how we're giving people more optionality to escape the surveillance capitalism than kind of just complicitly buying into it. And what about Polkadot? You said that Web3 was established to... serve Polkadot. So where does Polkadot fit into this vision? So Polkadot is an interoperability protocol.

So the vision of Polkadot is that there will be many different blockchains working together. And Polkadot forms the foundation for that. So in that belief, I think the Web3 Foundation takes this kind of broader understanding that the space will be filled with different blockchains and different technologies and different protocols with varying attributes. We're going to discuss how Web3 intersects with broader tech news even more in a second. But first, a quick word from our fabulous sponsors. At Consensus 2019, hear from trailblazers like Neil Ferguson, Christine Moy, head of JP Morgan's blockchain program, Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase, and others leading the way in blockchain and crypto technology.

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avoid detection. No wonder governments around the world are rolling out tough, new anti-money laundering laws for cryptocurrencies. Complying with those laws isn't easy. Banks and exchanges need the best cryptocurrency intelligence available to avoid penalties. Now you can use the same powerful AML and compliance monitoring tools used by regulators. CypherTrace is securing the crypto economy. To learn more, visit cyphertrace.com slash unchained. Back to my conversation with Ashley Tyson of the Web3 Foundation. So one additional thing, actually, that I wanted to ask about Polkadot was we're seeing in the community that there's been some hostility between Ethereum and Polkadot.

And I have seen you post about this on Twitter. So I just wanted to ask what your perspective was on that. Yeah, I... I would love to know if some of the hostility we see on Twitter is actually representative of broader viewpoints. It's kind of the problem with social media, right? About the loudest voices and kind of if they're representative. We have seen a little bit of hostility. I think that we have really good relationships with a number of people in the space and I don't feel that hostility at all from them. And certainly we don't look upon any technology with hostility. We're really... supportive of kind of a lot of different visions. We're certainly in an experimental phase right now. And so who knows what kind of technology will quote unquote win. But I think true decentralization means that there's room

for all these different technologies to coexist. So in that instance, I don't I would like to see us all come together and work together accordingly. I don't think that the conversation should be about which technology will win. I think that's kind of a scarcity mindset right now. I think that we have a bigger picture to focus on. I think that that bigger picture is how are we working to bring more people into the space rather than necessarily competing against the limited resources we have here. We should be focused on growing the pie. Yeah, that makes sense. It is funny how people seem to think like, I think things are decided already and it's just like, whoa, you guys are just getting started. At least

that's my opinion. We have no idea what's going to work. Right. So it could be polka dot. It could not be. But I think it's important that everyone's experimenting. I think it's important to make that research and that development open source so that other people can take bits and pieces and work out things that they think might be better suited towards maybe their needs or the needs of their community. I think that we're still way too early to tell. Yeah. Well, so going back to the news and how we were talking about, you know, there's this discontent around Facebook and stuff like that and how, in general, I feel like there are broader tech issues that might be ones that might get people interested in what you guys are doing at Web3. At the same time, we're also seeing things like last weekend

when the terrorist attacks in Sri Lanka happened, the government there said, shut down all social media in the country, including, you know, WhatsApp and stuff like that. And they were doing that to try to prevent the spread of fake news, which also has proliferated on these platforms. But how would you handle such things with a centralized web? Like, it feels like in that sense, fake news would... would actually, you know, there wouldn't be any kind of authority that could like tamp down on that. Yeah. Censorship resistance. Right. So it's a double edged sword at times. And the truth is there is no one to provide that authority of over what, you know, gets exposed and what doesn't. In the Another perspective that could be really good if you're working underneath regimes that want to censor information that should be out there

and should, you know, have more mainstream attention. So censorship resistance is a very difficult, it is a double-edged sword. So I actually think it's quite scary, though, to shut down all social media after some sort of tragedy like that. happens? How do you coordinate? How do you get any information? You have to rely on this one centralized authority to give it to you. And is that the correct information? I don't know. Yeah. It's one of those things, of course, it can go either way. In that sense, you don't know whether to trust the one source, but then when there's like so many, and we're even seeing this around things like the measles vaccine, I feel like you see all these

anti-vaxxers and they, I sort of feel like before the internet, it wouldn't have been quite as possible for that kind of conspiracy theory to take root and spread right because like maybe there might be a random person here or there that might believe it but then they wouldn't like be able to connect to each other and kind of like feed on each other's uh paranoia yeah sure so um so in that regard like i just wonder yeah i mean we'll have to wait and see yeah i wish i had the answers i don't um It's certainly going to be new unchartered territory for a lot of different people. But on the flip side, I think, you know, when we're seeing censorship with, for example, PayPal cutting off funding for accounts that they feel like aren't in line with their terms of services,

for example, there's a whole group of sex workers that aren't getting, you know, funds to their bank accounts because, you know, certain people have problems with them receiving that money. So, yeah. You know, I think it's really great that people now have the option to circumvent these centralized authorities that would otherwise withhold information or withhold funds from them. Yeah, yeah. Depends on the situation. Sure. Not that I, you know, as a journalist, obviously, I'm not advocating that anybody censor anybody else. But anyway, so one other thing that I wanted to ask about this kind of, you know, what's the word, like transition perhaps, or attempt to transition to a more decentralized web. When you see a company like Facebook,

as we've been discussing, when you see that they're launching their own coin, I mean, that's certainly a way to drive mainstream adoption of this technology. So what's your opinion on something like that? Well, also, first of all, do you have more information on Facebook coin, Zuck coin? Because I'm working off limited information. I'm told that it's meant to be actually decentralized and that Facebook will have no power over the technology. Well, they're definitely getting investors for it. So in that sense, you know, it's not like they're going to own, you know, tons of this coin. Right. So I don't know what they're planning, but I do look at everything quite skeptically, as I think most people in this space do. And I think we should be proceeding with extreme caution when we see some of these companies coming in and claiming that, you know, they're

interested in the space and they're going to put out technology that might just co-opt this movement that's more financially interesting for them to participate in now. So I look at it with a skeptic's eye. Yeah, meaning that you don't think that that will really drive? Well, okay, mainstream adoption, perhaps. Yes. But then what would it mean for your vision of Web3? I don't have enough information to know what they're planning to do, but given Facebook's previous actions, I just, I don't have a ton of faith. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there isn't a ton of information. Right. Yeah, and actually, I just realized for that reason, I shouldn't have assumed that they won't hold tons of the coin. The what? earlier when I

mentioned that they're getting outside investors and I said, Oh, for that reason, they won't own tons of the coin. Actually, I'm not sure about that. Yeah. They're very secretive. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, they want, they want to announce what the news is to everybody at the same time. So, um, I guess my last question for you is, um, here we are at the sub zero conference. Um, how does this fit into kind of like, uh, you know, your broader plans at Web3 and Polkadot? Yeah. So Web3 Foundation is working with parity technologies to build out one of the first implementations of the Polkadot protocol. And Substrate is a kind of a core component of that. But we're very much interested in bringing together different tech teams, different developers, different researchers across a number of different platforms. So

this event is really exciting. But we're actually, Web3 Foundation is not really involved in this event. We are involved, though, in an event that's coming up called Web3 Summit. And that's going to take place August 19th, 20 and 21 in Berlin. And last year was our first year doing that. And that brings together over a thousand researchers and developers working across decentralized protocols, working on privacy enhancing technologies, working on activism in the space. And we're really supportive of how those people share information and how they learn from others, how they kind of express ideas and criticisms and learn and grow. So I think anything that provides a platform for people

to learn and share, I think is really important. So in that way, we fully support what they're doing here. at Subcon. But we're also looking forward to doing that with Web3 Summit. Great. Well, it's been great having you on the show. Thanks for coming out and confirmed. Thank you so much, Laura. Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about the topics we discussed, be sure to check out the links in the show notes of your podcast player. If you are not yet signed up for my email newsletter, go to unchainedpodcast.com right now to get my thoughts on the top crypto stories of the week. And be sure to check out our new channel on YouTube. Unconfirmed is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Raylan Galapali, Fractual Recording, Jenny Josephson, and Daniel Ness. Thanks for listening.