COSMOS: Looking forward to 2023 (and lessons from 2022)

Transcript

we are live I'm Seth 3.0 wishing you a very happy new year and sending you my best wishes for 2023 and uh you're gonna need him because 2022 was really hard on the crypto industry but you know what they say once you hit that bottom you can only get back up again so today uh we're looking forward offering perhaps a glimmer of hope for the new year and to help lift your Collective spirits and get you excited about all the great technical ecosystem developments and uh technical developments happening this year I've gathered a rockstar panel so we've got Felix luch of course one we have Sunny Agarwal of osmosis Sam Hart Of The Interchange Foundation and cryptocito of well

cryptocito the man and the brand are insufferable um and we might have a surprise guest uh come in uh during the panel so will this panel offer bullish optimism or be the bearer of bad news Well you gotta stay tuned and find out and by the way none of what we discussed here is financial advice you should always do your research when it comes to crypto before we get started make sure to hit the like button the notification Bell And subscribe to get notified when I go live every week Cosmos in 2013 that's coming up next right here on the interrupt thank you

hello everyone and welcome uh to this very special edition of the interop thanks for joining me had little issues there are technical issues I don't usually do live streams like five people so I just like mess with my whole setup but uh glad you could make it uh glad we're all here and like I said we might have a surprise person join in uh during the show so yeah um how's how's everybody's New Year uh starting off and uh and also how what's your sentiment right now uh in terms of like crypto and the cosmos ecosystem is like more generally someone wants to start with that I want to just start by saying um thanks for for setting this up and I love this format like this is highly professional stuff I feel like I'm a CNBC or

something right now we'll talk later stop um yeah I mean um it was I feel I felt like it was really good the last two three weeks to uh decouple a little bit from the crypto Madness uh crypto Twitter Madness every day 24 7. so I personally spent some time with family I'm sure most of you as well I traveled a little bit and yeah but I'm very happy to be back I got a new camera on me now so I am stacking in the bear market and yeah excited to talk about Cosmos yeah we're still hearing the backing

track except can you turn that off or like I mean maybe we can go like this okay I couldn't I couldn't hear it that's why I was too yeah thanks for letting me know I think I was on a club like trying to talk about it this is what I do at the club anyways normally yeah um yeah same for from you for Christmas I also tuned out like for a good two three weeks almost now so that's uh quite interesting I think I did better than ever before in the last five years in terms of like not paying so much attention to what's happening so I think that's good I feel like yeah similar to when we were in like

2018 or 19 bear market like long let's going sideways but lots of stuff hopefully happening in parallel so yeah excited for for this building period yeah feeling pretty bearish uh but personally yes it's time of like personal healing um nature is healing um I guess like some personal news is I am wrapping up at the SEF um have already wrapped so I'm super excited to do stuff in the ecosystem I've been kind of like LARPing doing that for for a little while just like talking with lots of

teams and trying to make sure that they're okay and it's in the right direction now I get to kind of do that multiple time which is great is this Alpha are you announcing this here on the podcast that uh that you're leaving us yeah or people know this already I I posted about it but um okay I haven't seen that yeah it's real now what was the question again yeah well what do you how are you feeling right now about the whole uh all right that's the question let's see um no I'm not I'm feeling pretty good I mean yeah same got quite I was very AFK

for like the last like week and a half which was kind of nice but um you know I the I don't know I feel like our team has actually been feeling really um almost rejuvenated after the FTX collapse it sounds kind of terrible but like it was there was a period there for like where it's like you know there was a lot of questioning of like what is the point of deep eye um and we shall we had a thesis on what the point of defy was which was like largely around privacy but like our like oh take you know we had like some investors we would talk to and stuff we were like we're almost like bearish on D5 because they were just like

well FTX is just doing you know the premise of D5 was like getting access to these like you know getting Global access to like more asset classes and it's like you know and it's like they were like oh but FTX is just like figuring out the regulatory compliant way of doing this somehow and like so and there there was actually a little bit of bearishness on defy as a as a whole and I think that like that kind of just all got really reversed after that and it was like wait it's like look like this whole thing of like you know not your keys not your coins like you know don't trust verify it's like you know it was just a reminder that we needed I guess and so you know our team has been like yeah okay this is why

we're building a deck so yeah yeah I'm a little scared that you're gonna you're gonna kick this privacy thing down the road though like I still think that's the core I agree no no so it was like so that was our like I I think that that was like is still one of the main things that like dexes can do better than Central you literally just can't do with centralized exchanges in our opinion but like but also just this notion of like it seeing that people have just Fallen complacent and just like trust centralized exchanges and it's like the trustlessness was no longer the like I feel it I don't know

to me it felt like for a while the trustlessness aspect was no longer the selling point of dex's and that and like and I feel like that that came back to the Forefront again yeah and that's kind of why we're thinking a lot about like okay custody and how do we make the ux around that kind of stuff much easier yeah I think I echoed that sentiment my you know uh as uh FDX was was collapsing um it's funny like we were in uh my co-founder and I were in in Dubai and we're you know talking to investors trying to raise funds and we were at this very like kind of trad-fy asset investment investment manager conference and like our our point of view you know at that at that time and you know what

we've maintained is that this uh this is actually long term going to be good for crypto while everybody else was seeing it as just like this catastrophic catastrophic event from which crypto could never recover from I think I'm um more more bullish on decentralized apps and defy and the whole you know foundational promise of crypto than I I've ever been after this because it just demonstrates how badly it's needed and you know obviously privacy as you mentioned Sam was like a is a very important part of that and one that the industry needs to work on uh further but if there's one thing I think that signals to me that you know the next couple years is going to be um huge for for for decentralized

finance uh at least uh one one very positive signal that doesn't get talked a lot talked enough about is that you know the the regulatory framework in Europe Mika um excluded D5 from from its from its first version and to me that's like a huge relief that where you know a year ago it wasn't clear whether or not like there we would be able to continue to innovate in defy and the European commission has given us sort of a green light to continue innovating in the space you know mind you stable coins might might be regulated but but at least the the types of things that we're all sort of rooting

for and passionate about uh we'll we'll continue to be able to uh to develop at least for the next couple of years until they pass a new set of regulations you know that they'll be more adapted to to um to decentralized finance so yeah I'm feeling I'm I'm feeling pretty bullish uh at this point and like pretty optimistic about the next year or two um yeah so I mean there's a way like there are a few topics here that I wanted to talk about in uh yeah I don't know if we'll have we'll have time to go through all of them but hopefully we'll get to touch a little bit on each of them and I feel like there's like three big topics that um there so three main topics that I

think are is on a lot of a lot of people's minds um or at least mine and one is this this idea of like modular blockchains and app chains and um how how we reason about what are the different types of applications that's that are going to want to uh build on each of these different infrastructure design choices and then there's interoperability not just in Cosmos but beyond Cosmos I feel like there's some there's a lot of positive um there's a lot of positive uh um signs that IVC is being adopted beyond the cosmos SDK you know ecosystem where where it was birthed

um and then the other big thing I think that will be huge is the impact that native usdc uh will have on the ecosystem and in addition to dydx launching uh as an app chain and just the amount of volume that dydx can bring to the ecosystem so those are three big topics that I'd like to talk about and then maybe um you know other things that um that are also important is like okay shared Security is coming to Cosmos and I think I think that Topic's been thoroughly discussed but if we have like new insights uh certainly we can talk about that and also um you know how that relates to Med and

and also liquid sticking so um yeah let's let's maybe start with uh how's that sound are those uh those things you guys feel comfortable talking about here all right let's do it then so yeah app chains modular are they complementary or are they competing Theses like and how how will they sort of play out in your view over the next uh year especially as Celestia uh plans to launch sometime this year we have protocols like fuel also that are tackling more of the execution and settlement Claire um you know how will this all jive with the app app chain thesis is it complementary or or competing with the

acting thesis I have some thoughts on this um go for it I definitely think they're complimentary um they're there are efficiency advantages and um security advantages to um to the kind of like fully modular um Celestia kind of model um there are inherent limitations so you are kind of assuming that the uh you're doing no kind of boundary breaking operations

um so there are applications that you just can't build you know you know fully modular way you need to have integrated components um I think that's great like I Cosmos is about diversity like we should have as diverse an ecosystem as possible one of the things that I think is maybe under appreciated about modular thesis is um just the fact that like Celestia or the the kind of data availability provider um has a direct incentive to like build out

an ecosystem and and kind of make sure that it's healthy so that is something that I I think is really positive um and and we'll end up being kind of complimentary I'm really glad that Celestia is in in Cosmos so that there can be that that kind of like Cooperative effect where like they have a really rich Dynamic ecosystem it looks a little bit different than other things that are that are around it um yeah I mean that's super super exciting do we think that do we think that Celestia launching and building this

ecosystem will help bring well a like more developers to uh the broader Cosmos interchange ecosystem and and also liquidity uh to the ecosystem or do we think that um that you know the the Celestia ecosystem will sort of live in its you know as a as a somewhat detached uh ecosystem from the rest of what we typically know as like the IBC ecosystem any thoughts on that I mean I think their work doing a lot of stuff on making it so you can turn Cosmos SDK based chains into Roll-Ups and so you know at that point the fact as long as these chains have IBC enabled

I think that's sort of what will make it like I don't like you know it's it's similar to like it's very similar to like um you know if a chain uses ICS with the cosmos Hub it doesn't make it so it's getting security from the cosmos Hub right but that doesn't mean it's like you know okay it has to Route its IBC packets and stuff through the cosmos Hub it still has its own it'll still just do like peer-to-peer IBC just like any Cosmos chain today would it just where it's getting security from it and and I my understanding is the Celestia model is like very similar yeah there's there's one caveat which is you do need to build clients a little

bit differently like clients and you know people should have realistic expectations like the the client design stuff is lagging behind the other development so like maybe the main chain will be connected once Celestia launches but like it's gonna take time for the rest of these like the rest of the role that you need to get integrated into IVC yeah so what it sounds like is that you know if we can take a cosmos SDK chains and effectively you know turn them into Roll-Ups uh what what is that you know what let's say like some large chains decide that they want to sort of rid

themselves of the hassle of dealing with validators and so their own security what does that mean for uh for staking providers uh Felix because some of you guys are thinking about internally like yeah we're going to lose like half of our uh half of our stake uh and our revenues to change the decide to just you know roll up stake on Celestia does your business model because I think it certainly I mean yeah the role of like the node operator is changing I think in in a lot of ways I think right this is one dimension of it I think you also mentioned like the CK zero knowledge stuff I think that's also in a way impacting how much you rely on validators as this sort of like

uh party bringing security and and so it like in that sense the role diminishes I guess a little bit so you might not need like that many validators anymore in the future I think at the same time though now we have this new ecosystem joining I guess more developers and Cosmos in general uh more sophisticated applications that have like different needs so there will be new roles for new node operators to carry out I think we already saw a lot of it over the last years right starting with maybe like you know oracle providing Oracle data um you know uh whatever else doing like CK proving or verification of that I think it's gonna be like definitely

developing changing but if you say on top of of the game and and follow these new roles and find your a niche there you can still find something right there's always something that needs to be run uh even more so I think right chains get bigger more computation so there's there's a lot to do it's just kind of a changing role in my opinion yeah I think that's one thing I would say is like you know this people think that like Roll-Ups are okay with like single operators like single approvers and I think that's actually really wrong um you know the roll-up architecture gives you safety but it doesn't give you liveness or censorship and Mev resistance right and like for those two

for the other two things you still need a decentralized operator set and you know at least all the ethereum l2s it seem I feel like they all have like a road map to decentralization but I haven't seen any actual like efforts towards that I actually think Celestia is like the the ecosystem of Roll-Ups that are being built on it because they're already so familiar with tender man stack and everything is actually probably we're gonna we're gonna start to see the first like properly decentralized uh roll-up architecture so you know I think that's pretty exciting um one thing I'll add about Celestia in general is like uh I'll say one thing I never quite understood is this part of the part of the modular thesis that doesn't really click that much for me is like why

I feel like settlement wait for for if you're moving towards a roll-up model of the world it doesn't make sense for me for a settlement to be separated from data availability because the entire premise of settlement is a claim like settlement exists is basically say a way of saying like hey we know data is available and so we're gonna finalize this right and so like this idea that settlement is a separate system than data availability feels odd to me right like in ethereum 2.0 the claim is okay ethereum or not 2.0 whatever just a theorem I don't know it's called 2.0 or not but it's like in ethereum the idea is that like okay the ethereum base chain is both the

settlement layer and the data availability there that is a model of the world that makes sense to me in the cosmos architecture the app chain fully vertically integrated architecture it's like okay you know it's like okay the execution the settlement and the data availability is all one stack that makes sense you can separate execution from settlement and data availability but I just don't understand the Celestia model of the world of separating settlement from data availability I just don't see the point of that so I for me I feel like either Celestia has to become a settlement layer as well which just makes it anyhow just like any other L1 or yeah I don't know that's kind of my where I'm kind of stuck on this

yeah I see it I mean a lot of this comes down to like very kind of fine points around the the like full Choice rule and what your sorts sourcing data in in these kind of like edge cases um but I I think it's fine to Outsource it particularly if you have um Alternatives available um and you can even kind of store data temporarily to to work around work choice um one note about the the modular Paradigm or just like modularization in general is like

the fact that you're able to modularize something means that it is going to be commoditized and so like this Celestia validator set like the validators there are going to be commoditized like the so there's going to be um you know kind of the similar effects that you see in commodity markets where you you have large players that are able to to bring like economies of scale and um and then the revenues are are kind of like driven

down to a minimum yeah I I think I mean speaking of the commodification right I think that my my kind of thing with Celestia is I actually just see their data availability stack just becoming like copied into every Cosmos chain right it's like so it's interesting that like when there's like Services it's uh you know it's it's interesting to see what different chains choose to Outsource versus internalize right like for example bridging right it's interesting you see some change decided to Outsource it right osmosis has said you know we're just like okay we're Outsourcing this to a different chain we don't want to handle it while you know other injective for example you know they've completely internalize right right they run their

own gravity bridge instantiation and like so I I'm into something like threshold decryption I actually fully expect that like every chain is just gonna fully internalize it right like you know our team and I know are like doing a lot of the dev work but we actually expect it to be just like forked into every like most Cosmos change will just put it into their own code base so so I'm not sure what's going to happen with like data availability Solutions are people going to want to Outsource it to a chain like so last year or is it just going to become a module that everyone Imports into their own chain foreign side what are you seeing like in terms of sentiment around like the app chain and modular uh thesis and um yeah what kind of projects are you

seeing you know that are uh excited about like building uh building on the modular stack yeah I was gonna say it I mean I had an interview with Nick white uh like a couple of weeks ago and he actually said going back to your original question about uh whether the modeler like thesis and the uh the app change thesis are complementing each other or competing he actually said that like Celestia is basically a an app chain for Block space and I think um they're like also super um core Cosmos I think they don't consider Celestia being you know an app change thesis killer or whatever um so I think it's quite complimenting

and what I see like I mean I'm not too deep into that um you know side of the things but I think what you can already see is that especially a lot of the people also from the ethereum community are really excited um to see all these diverse developments going on in Cosmos in general and I think um yeah we're just gonna see so many projects like at this point honestly I lost oversight of everything that's going on it's like just too much going on um so but yeah I mean Celeste is definitely exciting and um yeah I'm looking forward to see when they launch how they will play out as Sam said I think building out the ecosystem is is really really important and it will it will be interesting to see like if they

can kind of like deliver upon upon the promising uh the promise of the technology itself so yeah hard for me to say but yeah definitely interesting stuff yeah I think Felix is having some connection issues hopefully we get them back um one thing I've really found hard to reason about is like so you know a lot of a lot of the sort of imagery like if you if you search like modular blockchain like you'll get this you'll get this graph right that has settlement execution settlement data availability consensus on one axis and then like modular and monolithic and all the different validium and Sovereign roll up and um sevmos and you know like a settlement

rollup Etc and I I find it's not extremely helpful like it helps to understand the different configurations but it's not really helpful in understanding hey I've got a blockchain idea right like I want to build an app which of these different infrastructure choices is right for me and the way I've started thinking about this and I don't know if this is correct but I I see it as kind of um you know in the same way that in web 2 there are like you you can you can build an application like you've been you could build a website on WordPress or on Squarespace and like to me that's that's going to be the equivalent of building your app as a smart contract on ethereum or on a smart contract roll up and then

as you as you grow and as you need um more sovereignty and more control over uh your execution uh environment like the settlement and then ultimately getting all the way up to building your own app chain which to me is kind of the equivalent of like you know Google and Amazon building your own data centers their own network infrastructure um their own uh even Hardware you know you're going to be able to choose from any one of these Solutions and you know it might you might evolve right so you might go from um having a a settlement roll up and going to like a sovereign roll up where you have more control over your stack and you know maybe that's the equivalent

of building your business us on AWS you know or or some or or you know some some inferior version of that would be like to build your app on versel right where you're limited in in what you can do and the types of infrastructure that you have so like I I I'm trying to reason about like how this Maps out to you know different levels of scale and different sizes of applications and which point at which point you say okay like we're gonna upgrade from say like a sovereign roll-up to building your own app chain because we need to be perfectly integrated we need to control like different aspects of our attack we need to have you know more granular you know governance um alignment uh we need to be able to

internalize me veve this sort of thing so yeah I haven't seen anybody you know present it that way and and sort of thinking wondering what you guys think about like this idea of thinking from this use case perspective in general what I think I mean you mentioned dydx earlier right they're like the perfect example like they moved from the ethereum um itself to uh L2 Solutions I think there were on another one before then they went to start where now they're building their own Cosmos app chain um and I think they just figured out you know by having an active product active users that they they need to evolve and they need to

find the best infrastructure that I can build a product on there was another project called centropy that just announced they're going to migrate over from substrate over to Cosmos as well and I'm seeing a lot of interest also from other projects I think one thing might just be and I'm not you know technical at all so I can't comment on what's the differences between Cosmos SDK and substrate like in detail that depends on the use cases from the developer perspective but I think it also comes down to like where are actually users where is liquidity right where's stuff going on how is the ux there and I think honestly like in Cosmos you just have so much um uh yeah it's all interconnected through IBC the ux is really great

there's an active passionate Community sometimes too passionate and it turns into drama um but I'm sure we all have seen that uh over the past months but I think that's a feature of Cosmos right that you have all this stuff going on and um yeah that's why you also see a lot of developers choosing Cosmos but um the product launch will then decide um if there's um you know if there's also anything going on there right like if you look at for example at cardano right like cardan has been promising to be the next big thing the ethereum killer for so many years yet you saw just a project for Christmas just like shutting down the entire project and it was supposed to become

the D5 Hub of cardano um there's like other projects that have never launched they don't have users they don't have liquidity so I think it's a mixture of a lot of technical things but also where the users uh how is the ux and and also interoperability which I think is probably the the name of the game for the next couple years is like uh you know what's the most trustless I mean we've seen so many hacks and uh rocks on on bridging Solutions centralized Solutions um in the last year or two so I think um if IBC continues to prove itself to be reliable secure and efficient I think that's also going to drag in a lot of projects and developers so yeah yeah well let me let me let's use that as a

segue to our next uh the next Point here which is um bringing more liquidity into the cosmos ecosystem which I think uh you know I I think we'll be uh great in terms of attracting you know new users uh developers but also just actively uh people you know trading on on different platforms and investing in projects and um so usdc announced that they're launching on Cosmos this year also dydx you mentioned is coming to Cosmos like think this year as well so what impact do we think that's going to have on the ecosystem as these things start rolling out yeah I hope my internet will not leave

me I'm dropping in and out here I'm in like some Hotel so I'm sorry for that anyway so I think yeah dydx is a big one right if you look at it just in terms of like trading volume right dydx is is definitely probably detailed decks and all the big market makers are trading there now if if it migrates in a way that like everything goes to the cosmos chain which I don't think will be like the problem with uidx is it's very opaque right now in terms of like what they're actually doing what they're working on what's going to happen so we can only like speculate but I think probably they will make it like somewhat of a small slower rollout right that it's like a

migration that takes some some months or years until like all the volume is on on the new Cosmos chain so I don't think the impact will be that immediate um I guess in general probably not that much will change in my opinion the next few months because because we're in a bear market and there's just you know it will just be like you you got to build your stuff now and then in the next bull market we'll see what was the right choice or what was good um so but yeah that's kind of my view but like obviously all big uh kind of validations of the cosmos stack and the cosmos thesis and as as cryptocito already mentioned right all these other projects migrating um yeah you hear a lot more also from

VCS about Cosmos so I think everything on the right track um any any thoughts on the usdc uh front uh you know you're probably following this pretty closely so um no I just think I mean uh people do put a lot of weight on bridge risk obviously uh maybe probably rightfully so over the last year but um and so if you look at like the major you know if you look at the incentives on Osmos on the osmosis pools you look at the osma usdc uh pool and it's actually like the aprs are quite high and are is

actually not managing to bring in more liquidity which it you know means that that pool has been somewhat saturated even relative to other uh pools and which makes me think that like okay a lot of that you know there could be many reasons why that pool is you know not bringing in more liquidity despite the higher high incentives and I think a portion of that is that people are are you know put a really high emphasis on this bridge risk uh and so you know if we can move it over to a native uh Cosmos native version of the stable coin that you know then you you remove one of these big sources of bridge risk and you see this in like you know other

ecosystems in general that once you have a a native stable coin it ends up getting a lot more liquidity um on the other hand no I will say that how much liquidity how much liquidity I don't know we'll see how much liquidity right now is in um uh bridge uscc on osmosis uh roughly oh you uh it is about 13.5 million dollars right now okay so it's come down a little bit lost yeah yeah I mean the liquidity is generally paired with awesome right so yeah I mentioned this before but like

liquidity is like the big concern in Cosmos right now and to be perfectly honest like I don't think it's going to get a lot better this year like dydx is coming uscc is coming all this stuff but like you're talking about late in the year and it's going to take a long time to to ramp up adoption um the the two well the more relevant liquidity events are basically going to be liquid staking is number one I believe and lending markets starting to open up

um but I still think it's going to be like really dry out there for the next year one one other spot I'd add though is you know about 13 million dollars of usdc in like the liquidity pools but there's about 40 million dollars of usdc on the osmosis chain so that means that they're still about like you know 27 million dollars of people are just holding in there sitting in their balances right um so you know I I but you know I think that hopefully we can get those numbers even higher if once uh you know some more yeah they're available I think one thing also being this kind of like you're exposed to the impermanent loss often with usdc in the awesome pools

right now right so if there would be like some stable swap pool between native usdc and some other types of stable coin maybe they're gorik stablecoin right like a three pool type thing I'm sure that that would gain a bunch of liquidity yeah I mean that's another thing I would definitely like to see more stable coins you know uh I while usdc is great I don't want to put all our eggs in one basket we've already done that once before in Cosmos I don't want to do that again uh like you know I'd like to see you know I'd like to see more tether busd like more centralized stable coins but then on top of that also more decent size stablecoin liquidity right you have like uska and agork and you know uh the frax folks

have been actually really interested in like issuing native uh for acts in Cosmos as well so like I think um like doing something yeah getting more stable coins is important bring UST back you said Felix in the chat private chat in the works there is no osmosis stable coin in the works uh yeah and what about what about all those staked ions what's uh oh well that's I mean that's a different project right uh I mean the the plan for uh uh ions are yeah I mean for step one is just to build ibcx Index right like that's just and then you know

this hasn't not been approved by Iron governance but it's like okay an idea of what to do after that is like you can drive some initial usage usage of ibcx by issuing a rye reflex or like stablecoin backed by ibcx uh that's but that's sort of like you know down the road Step One is uh launch ibcx first and ibcx will be like an index of Cosmos tokens yep yeah a lot of folks are doing that like I know also Club is doing something like that uh the folks over at Loom they've got their index now yeah isn't it is it a passive index it'd be cool if it just

tracked all osmo assets it is possible what do you mean by passive index or yeah yeah well the the the Dow does have to approve which assets get approved added to the basket but then yes the it is algorithmic on like what the composition is so uh if you feel like you're having a hard time saying staying staying up on this call I can see uh hope hopefully uh things will get fixed my USD comment wasn't appreciated yeah I made a proposal I I mean like the Tara

Rebels chat and as a joke I made a proposal not as a joke as a joke it was like hey you should rename it from ustc back to USC take it to one cent and then restart the mechanism all over again and they were like oh wait that's actually not about it and they're like they're like actually like thinking about it so I don't know maybe we'll have it back again bring back UST but only at one dollar that's at one cent USC yeah um so yeah interoperability uh I I think one of the things that I'm quite quite excited about and you know we're

starting to see a little bit of you know we're starting to see a little bit of this percolate up is um is this idea that we can have uh IBC uh connected uh to to other ecosystems so you know if there are uh people working on IBC connections to Solana to near uh to Avalanche there's people like I think also on ethereum like electron Labs working on like an IBC connector um and then of course there's the whole Prospect of ZK Bridges uh I know polymer is working on that stuff um yeah how how hopeful are you that we're going to start seeing some

meaningful connections uh this year to to to bridge the gap pun intended with other ecosystems um I think we're definitely going to see them like for the other ones but I also want to add as well we're also good like I think actually the first like non-uh Cosmos SDK IBC connections are actually going to come from like you know what we'd still consider Cosmos ecosystem stuff but does not build on the SDK stack right so you have like namata is launching or did it already launch or it's launching very soon um yeah uh you know that's not based off the cost of SDK yep number you have you know a Noma down the road nomic so you know you actually do have a lot of

um you know non-costal test I actually think those will probably be the first uh non-cosless SDK based uh IBC IBC implementations and then uh beyond that though I you know I know the substrate one is coming along like very well like that's probably gonna I imagine that's a few months out probably but like that I I I definitely see that happen coming pretty soon yeah I initiated the collaboration with with polka dot or web3 Foundation like three years ago and I mean shout out to composable and shout out to Strangelove like

they're doing so much hard work to make this happen um Strange Love in particular is like they are deploying IBC into like multiple ecosystems um it's super super impressive one thing that I think we we kind of figured out this this year-ish was like the the correct like organizational configuration that's required to actually do these Integrations because it's really hard like the you need to know the the kind of architecture code bases of multiple different ecosystems they're all very complex

um you know you're talking about building and integrating like client Machinery IBC is pretty complicated protocol um when you're initially onboarding and stuff is like expensive a lot of teams just like run out of gas halfway through so um yeah there there's kind of like a commercial element that's like super important to deliver these things and I think I need to add also um as far as I know composable is also they're not just going to bring IBC to the substrate world but also uh cosm wasn't right so I think a very very bullish on that um so yeah that's also exciting to see

yeah I'm in general just very bullish on cosmosm as a whole I think somewhere around I think it was right around Cosmo verse I you know our team has always been like you know one foot in one foot out on cosm wasm right because like we you know I mean admittedly our team was like way more comfortable with the causes SDK it's what we've been working on for years um and you know now we do have a few people now who are like you know very proficient on cosmopolism but like you know we always try to like prefer to write things in the SDK as much as possible but basically at aquasm uh in Colombia we kind of just made the decision you know what like we are going to start writing core functionality of our chain in cosmosum at this point and

like core cross-chain IBC composability stuff it's going to be in cause of awesome so like we have the IBC rate limiting contracts that we have um like that you know so that's our like first module in osmosis that's like in cosmosum all of mesh Securities being written in cosmosom so our take is just like you know all change gotta all causes change should be adopt and cause and wasm even if in a limited form right it doesn't have to it you could have like a permission to upload similar to how osmosis does but like if any chain that doesn't is gonna get left out of the like composability the the next generation of IBC composability like stop that's happening do we have an idea of like how many

cosmosom developers there are in the space and um yeah how many how many could come into the space this year like 10 12 10 costume wasn't developers I I don't think that's true but it's it's there's so few I mean we're talking about like one to two hundred ah um I don't know I I I I actually don't think that's true I think they're I mean uh I'm waiting for the Electric Capital uh developer report to come out for the year because I'm sure oh yeah that'll have a habit but like I I I mean largely I think it's I mean you know keep in

mind the entire Terra ecosystem was all Cosmos based right and there was actually you know there was at least like 50 projects like building on on that stack and like let's assume each of them had like an average of at least three to four developers right they were I I I I think there's definitely more more than that but yeah yeah so um one thing that uh was here in the rundown that I also want to talk about is and we touched on a little bit is liquid staking um so liquid staking came online uh late last year with stride

Quicksilver finally launched a couple of weeks ago but had some pretty major hiccups getting started um what's your outlook for liquid staking uh for for this year do you think uh like you you mentioned Sam that you think it's going to be a a pretty significant in terms of bringing new liquidity into space uh how bullish are we on on liquid staking given the current state of things and I did not complicated I mean you said something I'm paraphrasing but yeah I said of the the meager amount of liquidity that we're gonna see this year look what staking is going to be uh one of the you know maybe the largest contributor thought in

London um and yeah I mean my there's a bunch a bunch of super strong teams working on liquid staking um in my kind of taxonomy I would also consider inner fluid sticking part of liquid staking um of course yeah missed that one and I think like all these Solutions are you know needed um but it's going to take it's going to take time like uh six months from now you know maybe we'll start to see some traction yeah I I totally agree to that I think the important thing for liquid sticking is that you know we have these strong

teams building custom Blossom stuff and like especially I think developing like uh interchange queries and interchange accounts and like really testing that um I think that's that's really the best outcome there I also expect minor um you know actual liquidity for for the most part but um we'll we'll see and sorry for disconnecting I guess I'll do it maybe one last time and then I'll have to leave out the stream somehow doesn't like me or the hotel doesn't like it yeah uh yeah any any other things that here on liquid sticking before we move on to the next topic it's uh you know it I'm not the biggest

fan but it's you know it's it's not that Hill I want to die on I think there's way more important it's something that is like you know I don't want to necessarily support but it feels like something to me that's somewhat inevitable and uh you know can you expand a little bit on why why it's not something you're you're really willing to support like what you're thinking around then I mean you know I think I talked about this I've talked about this a lot but you know this is kind of why we designed super fluid staking for osmosis as it was a way of say I think I think liquid staking is almost a undermining of the like point of stake of like proof of stake right or at least the unbonding periods

and proof of stake um and so you know it it undermines proof of stake Security in in a way uh what we have been doing is like working with like stride to like come up with how do we like make it safer so like you know I think there's there's definitely way things you can do that like make it so it less undermines the security of proof of stake so you know it's not I I think the where we're going to end up is actually something that I'm okay with which is why it's like you know not the hill I'm gonna die on you know I think that's more important stuff to tackle what what about um how would you feel about liquid staking uh

uh I mean I guess I guess it kind of becomes I mean you know this whole idea with like Babylon and and um and uh having Bitcoin security support um uh proof of State security and then also that being able to reduce the uh unbonding periods um they're pretty orthotic yeah see there there is no there's no like one dimension of security security is like a very multifaceted thing and babylon's really cool like big supporter but it doesn't really solve the issues that liquid sticking has um I've spent the last couple months

trying to go around to every single liquid staking provider and talk to them about like the key security issues around Liquors taking um just get them thinking about it like see what their strategy is um also if anybody in the audience wants to talk to me about this like I'm trying to do my part to make sure that this is secure system um I'm also really glad that super fluid's taking exists like has a as a kind of counterpart to like we say like I I really think that there needs to be much more differentiation in liquid staking Market because as it's configured right now like it's going to be winner take all like they're

they're not differentiated sufficiently like so if you want to have liquidating diversity like you need to to basically win some Market um so that that's I think the the optimal outcome from a security perspective is to have a couple different options and to have these options really competing to provide the most secure product so my I actually my my take is I actually not I don't know if there's somebody wouldn't take all so okay my bet on how I imagine the liquid shaking ecosystem evolving is

actually that it will end up that defy apps are actually going to be the liquid staking providers so you know let's say you have something let's say something like ibcx right what what ibcx is going to do is it's not going to accept um like St atom and St osmo and SD Juno into its index what it's going to do is accept atom osmo Juno secret whatever right into its index and then the defy protocol then goes stake liquid like Stakes those assets and and takes the yields from those rewards um and does whatever it wants with it

distributes it to token holders you know gives it to IBC X holders you know they put it as liquidity incentives you know they can do whatever it wants with it but like I I think that defy apps are going to want to sort of own that part it's going to be one of the main Revenue recurring aspects for I think a lot of TBL driven d by apps I I think that that's one uh so just to clarify my statement like I don't think that uh I I hope that mult there can be multiple winners but in my mind basically stride uh Quicksilver and

um I mean basically everything except osmo is insufficiently differentiated like there will be one winner in that market as it's configured right now and they need and and it's okay like that I I hope that they will differentiate further um so that like that's one option what what Sunny just mentioned um I'll I also think that there might be an option in um uh routing combining with routing so that you're you're doing all the kind of unwinding type Services um and kind of just in time liquidity as part of the liquid sticking

um well this is the like the kind of like Explorations that people need to do in order to to actually survive it yeah I guess the one thing I'm actually like most worried about with liquid shaking is this whole like Leverage staking stuff that's been happening that I feel that's actually just like really silly almost like you you know people are taking uh you know putting you know borrowing uh it just happened on Solana right they borrow Seoul they stake it use that steak sauce collateral to borrow more Soul stake it and then like Leverage loot where they they've actually only put up a little bit about of like initial capital and then they are getting staking rewards on a far larger amount and then what ends up actually happening is who ends up taking

the risk is the people who are lending outsole on the um uh lending market and the problem is that when you have compound style uh like many to many lending markets like I might want so basically those people who are lending out the soul they're taking on this like Risk and that's like almost it almost had a Cascade failure uh during the you know during the whole FTX collapse when Solano was like crashing like crazy like um Soul land was about to go effectively illiquid but like some whale basically stepped in and like you know covered it but like the problem is like in that market the the people who are depositing sold they

might have wanted it to be allowed to be borrowed against other assets but they didn't you know because it was a many-to-many market they they had no option in like saying no if someone is using SD Soul as collateral and then they're taking on this like Cascade failure risk so I so basically you know I think it is important for Lending Market designers to be like planning for this and trying to prevent leverage staking from happening using their markets I mean yeah you can do the same thing with maker Dow like because it's a lending Market behind the scenes but I I think you need to approach riskness with a similar kind of diligence if you're gonna go down that road yeah yeah maybe one final topic here and Sam

I know you want to talk about this is the funding environment um and uh you know the impact that that has on growth in the ecosystem so you know right now um I think fundraising is not not easy I mean like I think I've talked to a lot of teams that are raising funds and um they're they're finding it challenging to raise funds uh you know compared to maybe like last year um also I I think I find valuations haven't come down that much I feel like on the on the um liquid like on the liquid side like valuations have come down a lot but startups that are raising are still

raising at fairly high valuations so like I thought this was the case after Tara collapsed with okay like valuation should come down they came down a little bit not so much um and and now they really should have come down but you know or at least in my mind they should have and I feel like they haven't yet so what uh like hey you know do we think that um the funding environment will change fundamentally over the next year and you know what needs to happen for evaluations to come down to more sane levels or should they yeah I mean I it doesn't like give me any pleasure

to discuss this topic but I do think it's like really important um like there's a lot of new entrance into the ecosystems there's a lot of really great people on Cosmos that have not experienced a bear market and like you need to be really smart with Capital Management right now um because if the bear Market lasts 18 months and like you can't raise for 18 months like you're gonna need to fire people or wind down and um yeah I mean everybody is

gonna need to be I mean conservative in some respects and like smart with their Capital deployment and in other respects like if you are well capitalized I think that there can be a an enormous advantage to spending right now but you you really need to do so in like a you know super deliberate way um in terms of valuations um yeah I mean I think it'll you know the longer we're in the bear Market the lower the valuations are gonna go um uh there's some very the

really as of I don't know as of this year there are like Cosmo specific funds um or like funds that are really like zeroed in on Cosmos which is amazing super exciting I'm trying to raise one yeah thank you Seb um but they're going to be super Discerning now um so yeah I mean I guess just like word of caution like bear markets don't take prisoners you know uh CJ is this something you've also

observed I know like you you have access to like tons of projects and I think you're also doing a little bit of investing what are your thoughts on like valuations right now I mean like like some was saying I think the longer the bear Market continues to you know more everything will settle um unfortunately probably a lot of smart good ideas uh won't won't happen because they can't maintain the funding but um yeah I think yeah as you say right now we're it's still it's still quite High um maybe another maybe we just have a boring year ahead of us you know like where nothing happens Bitcoin just doesn't move everything dries out liquidity goes gradually down and that's where we really like bottom out the

valuations hit a really button and that's probably the time where the VCS and also like traditional um funds are getting interested again to place bets in crypto and diversify so um but I think like there's so many things attached to it right also the macro environment we haven't talked about this at all but I think that also plays a big role what's going to happen there um regulation right like there are so many things so yeah but I mean personally I think yeah this year might just be a boring year um and then towards the end of the year or early next year uh like early 2024 we might just see um the real bottom with everything um and then from there on you know

there's like the all the Bad actors are washed out and then from there we can just go back up again but yeah let's see I I have a hope for this year which is um there is a 10x 100x Improvement that we can make on community pool management I mean I was trying to get at some of this with atom 2.0 people didn't love it but there's we can be working way smarter than we are there and um and I don't know just a lot of people's just general framework for thinking about this is just completely wrong to be perfectly honest

like they're they're not rewarding talent and they're not getting people long-term incentivized and they're not like making smart spending decisions you know that if if there was if anyone went into any stable coins six months ago like we they would be in a fantastic position right now um so um I do think that there's going to be a bunch of requests for community pool spends most of them are going to be terrible um and yeah and just better tooling um

more kind of professionalized approaches to how like what is the component what are the components of spending like why are we spending what are we spending on marketing as a percentage of our like total cash flows or uh you know the the total assets that are management like these are just like not questions that we're asking right now well I mean like there was a little bit of drama this week with uh with that whole osmosis ad on bankless uh which you know people are scrutinizing I actually think that so I you know being a podcaster you know having sold ads on a podcast I think that's not like out of the out of this

world you know uh in terms of you know the cost versus the benefit I mean bankless is like a huge audience and you know it's these sorts of things help also create awareness and importantly a different audience right and a different audience no no that was my whole point like it's not only they have a huge audience they have like a massive audience of people who you don't necessarily know that much about Cosmos or osmosis and you know when usdc gets turned on like these are people who could you know potentially come come into the cosmos ecosystem so I I support that sort of thing um but yeah there are some proposals I think that are a little bit less um yeah I think like governance and

community community schools community pool spending really needs to improve and I'm I'm really hopeful that the tooling around this stuff really kind of starts to mature over the year and yeah yeah to be perfectly honest I also think we just need to grow up with like the the call out culture stuff is like so toxic um the like we need to make sure that people who are working hard feel like psychologically safe in their work and um and have at least a professional kind of

tone around like how how we're kind of coordinating off work and and asset allocation so um yeah I mean I think we we should be um just rethinking like the the kind of supply chain there like we should try to have kpis that we're working towards and we can kind of like share some understanding like what we're trying to achieve um and you know and then work against some kind of uh or just like build a coherent strategy

around that like you know maybe you think that 50k is a lot for a bank list podcast or whatever but like what what was the rationale behind the ad placement in the first place it's like our objective is to grow the user base by X number of people with this kind of Lifetime and this is our allocation to do that like this is where we think that we can best spend our dollar like the you need to to work in that order in order to even say anything coherent about whether this is the correct you know the correct

allocation to that point Sam I think you know like in the past two years and that's like especially before IBC went live and shortly after everybody complained Cosmos is not it's gonna fail because it doesn't have marketing now you have a lot of people coming doing marketing and yeah maybe some of the things are not worth the money um but you also only know that after the fact right so and and then there's a lot of people doing stuff and then they get a lot of headwind right like we even got a lot of headwind for Cosmos um and it's it's you know like like Sam is saying I mean it it like we didn't get threats or anything but still just to get this constant headwind from some

people it's a far minority to be honest I think the farm I mean for getting for getting community pool money for a sponsor yeah because we made Unchained proposals right and like unfortunately TV companies and Conference uh you know venues don't accept Juno or atom or osmo so you know unfortunately we are in that position but um this you know I I think what what Sam was Raising that point and maybe we can do a whole separate session about this with some other other key people but I think this whole point that there's a lot of toxicity especially from accounts that are unknown that don't have any followers that are brand new that are just probably like one

person that's like multiple has multiple accounts and it's just very aggressive and toxic and like spreading weird weird theories or even like threatening people and we saw a lot of toxicity around atom 2.0 so I don't know I mean it's um it's so wild but yeah yeah I mean I'd love to do I'd love to do a a chat about that with uh with some relevant people I think you would be one of those relevant people yeah we're about ready to you know start uh announcing things around nebula Summit and you know this year we're um you know last year we we did get one on chain proposal from Atmos and I think like the community supported that pretty broadly and we were also one of the

things that we did that I think most people a lot more people should do is be accountable right so like after the event we publish this post on Commonwealth and we said like hey at most Community like this is what your marketing dollars got you with you know the the you know the event the people who attended the Workshops the the talks like all the all the visibility on Twitter and everything and like I I think this is something that we uh like the community different communities should expect more of it's like when you do a proposal you you should have some um some deliverables to to show for it just like if you're working with like an agency or any any sort of service provider you know then maybe maybe some amount of um you know time locked money or like

money lot unlocked in um in uh in different like amounts over time when deliverables are are met like of course this is something that you know um more complex like smart contracts could it could achieve or like dows um but yeah I'm I'm I'm being in in the bear Market compared to like last year when we when we asked for this money I'm one like I'm curious what kind of response we're gonna get this year because we're probably gonna be asking for more money and also like on separate chains and so I think we're all going to get a little bit of pushback uh 100 yeah and also like you know they're just like people that I'm sometimes really

wondering like um especially on Twitter and again like it's mostly it's it's a fun minority and it's mostly new accounts with no followers that nobody ever saw that are not engaged anywhere that are like hiding behind whatever uh avatars or whatever that are just typing and sending messages so I'm like why would you even why would you even send that like why would you even create a account of like with toxicity that doesn't make any sense to me so I think yeah this this probably is also a side effect of the bear Market um people are just way more emotional right now maybe lost a lot of money right like we've seen literally people lose everything overnight with Tara with FTX like it's pretty brutal like this year

or last year was really really brutal and I totally understand like when some people just get very very emotional and like just go on the internet and just type whatever they want but like to some point again I think um they also got a lot of um hate for no reason and there are some of the most passionate active builders for so many years in Cosmos like we should all be learning from them instead of giving them headwind for having great ideas and being active right and I always say like when people complain rather like if you complain just pose a better idea and like try to gain traction with that idea don't just complain and you know create a cult around it just make something better if you have a bad idea just do it apparently some people know it better so they can just

you know do it but then they also don't do it and then you know that's the end of the end of days you honestly don't even need to go that far you just don't need to like [ __ ] somebody else up like just ask a constructive question rather than like I feel like you're speaking from experiencing personal learning here it's a little bit of a little bit of bitterness not gonna lie yeah so so on that on that topic and and uh and I realized we're a bit over time here but I do want to ask this question and because it's been asked a few times in the uh in the chat uh is what's what are the next moves for atom 2.0 um I gotta say I'm not really clear on

this I know ICS uh is due to come on board but are online but what what about the other components and uh what's the plan here yeah um I mean I think it's kind of a I have my own opinions but uh clearly those opinions are not very they don't hold a lot of weight these days so um ICS is definitely seems like there's a lot of support um liquid staking is like kind of the next logical step um and that potentially means adoption of the um

the liquidity staking module uh and then I wrote this on the The Forum I I think the path of least resistance is just kind of trying to double down on ICS go to market um and and and trying to you know solve some of these liquidity issues because because that's going to be a big component great well looking forward to ICS uh I know there's a lot of chains that are that are due to launch on ICS and you know it's something that I think that has a lot of support in the community and people are just like you know waiting for it and

um and I think you know it it is certainly you know the part of the item to put up proposal that had the like least resistance so I'm excited for it um maybe some Last Words guys what's uh what what gives you the most hope for this year and what gives you the most fear maybe I can I don't know maybe I can start something go for it so I mean most hope um if we talk about constantly we talked about this in this show the entire time there's so much activities so so many projects in the works um IBC is going across different ecosystems outside of Cosmos um so I think Cosmos wise it's all on

track um crypto wise and macro wise obviously there's a lot of uncertainties we have to see how things play out um but that's just also like we can't influence that right um I think we as a community and customers can just do our best to talk to each other nicer to be a little bit more respectful to also um provide constructive feedback um I actually like feedback and I think all of us do um but it needs to be constructive and respectful so I think that's something we can work on um as a community but um yeah obviously the Highlight for me is going to be customers this year um in probably Q3 um Q4 so we're still working well we're working on it

um so that's gonna happen uh really really pumped about that and also like what we want to establish is satellite events around the world so we already started with um Adam Lisbon we had atom Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic they just did autonomously without us as kind of like the organizers they just did Adam Santo Domingo a couple of weeks ago and the Law happened very recently um the Indian Community is also huge so I think from a community an event perspective there's a lot that's going to happen this year and I think even if the even if there's no new capital being injected into crypto because macro is bad still within crypto the cards get

reshuffled right and you see a lot of other ecosystems um um drying out a little bit or just not having a lot of Demand right now and what we talk about today you can already tell that there's so much demand for customers so I think even though if crypto goes down as a whole industry Cosmos might just you know still get more become more popular um also more valuable right I I also would love to see atom just you know get get up in the rankings a little bit because that's obviously also going to bring in a lot of eyeballs so yeah I'm excited about everything and I'm in general a very positive person so um there's not much at worries me this year but there's probably a lot of things to

worry about so yeah I don't know would you guys think yeah I have similar thoughts like the the like ethereum killers were I mean I think they're gonna they're gonna stick around but like they weren't differentiated enough essentially um and the cosmos ecosystem like brought real Innovations it took us a long time to build them but that's like finally being validated and um one thing that's been super encouraging is like for the first time this year I've had

folks from the ethereum foundation folks from flashbots like like the ethereum is looking at Cosmos for ideas and yeah and and kind of leads on where they should go next and that's that's really um validating and um yeah I mean it it I couldn't have said that until until this year like we hadn't really like crossed that threshold of of um of kind of notoriety and and validation in some of the core theses foreign

I mean yeah what am I hopeful for uh I kind of like what I said at the beginning right like I think there's a lot of um you know just really excited to keep executing on our road map um you know bringing privacy better custody Solutions um starting to see like more applications like start you know Mars launching very soon IBC and IBC act stream swap like all this stuff a lot a lot of the stuff that's been like in works for a while starting to actually start to be launched um what am I worried about um

I mean this okay this is gonna do like a little bit like complete like on out of left field but I you know I wanna I wanna make sure that like there's enough Innovation happening on stable coins uh or like you know digital Fiat currencies I think that like you know obviously the Tara collapse like kind of hit everyone really hard and it also caused like a lot of regulatory backlash um but I actually you know my strong belief is that you know kind of what there's a few major project products I want to I wanted to see happen in crypto one was you know a privacy oriented decks but then you know another one was digital fiat currency uh like non

non-government-backed fiat currency and so you know I I think I'd like to make sure that you know we don't lose sight of that you know at the end of the day you know it it was originally the cryptocurrency industry and if we're not trying to actually reinvent currency properly it you know kind of you know I I still think we can accomplish a lot even like just through defy alone but I think I'd still like to make sure we're making progress into other stuff as well I want one question for sorry one question for sunny uh where which would you say would be the strongest competitor first Moses this year oh uh on which axis I think osmosis does a

number of verticals um and like is it as a Dax is it as a you know um cosmosm development platform like on which axis I guess I would say as a DEX as a DEX um I would say honestly Thor chain has been like crushing it recently like if you look at I actually think in the last one month door chains volumes are higher than osmosis is they've been integrated into trust wallet as native swaps and you know they're they're they're they're focused Beyond just the cause of ecosystem which is also what you know we want to do as well but like if you look at actually the volumes of like swapping

from eth to BTC on Thor chain it's actually quite impressive um so I was just looking at those numbers the other day they're they're putting up numbers yeah exactly so they have Integrations into into chains that you know axolar isn't reaching right now for instance yeah yep exactly so I I actually think that like out of the causal space dexes I think Thor chain is probably the one that's like crushing it the hardest right now [Music] are you uh are you of the camp that think that uh uniswap will uh will move to its own app chain at some point I don't think they will to be honest

yeah you think they can remain competitive uh as a as a as a Nigerian smart contract I mean they they are on more than just ethereum right they're on polygon and but yeah I think they're I think they're taking a very you know uh a deployment per evm and I think they are taking a very I don't I don't see them doing anything beyond other than evm for a while and I you know I think I think they're very all all in on this like evm Centric view of the world yeah no but I mean like on like can they can they remain competitive on pricing on on ethereum with with their with ethereum fees being so high plus Mev my point is like you know it doesn't have to be you know so up on ethereum

even if you know swap the unit swap instantiation on ethereum gets like you know if that's it let's let's say the ethereum ebm world still wins uh you know even if it all goes to polygon or uh you know ethereum l2s or whatever you know unisoft's already there on all of those as well so yeah you know volumes might just move there instead yeah right and this pops like their Market is uninformed water flow and to stay relevant I think that they're going to need to go down the paper order flow route like really hard um

because they're not going to be competitive on the other dimensions like because they're doing this like premium thing like the capital efficiency is all black um so they they just need to harvest that that uninformed flow yeah all right guys we gotta wrap this up um thank you so much for uh for joining me on this uh on this very very fun panel uh unfortunately Felix had to drop off at some point but thanks Felix I know you're probably listening and uh coachesito Sam sunny thanks for for your for your time and for your fantastic insights here today

and I know everybody uh watching absolutely appreciate it so hope to do this again soon thanks man thanks for hosting good luck everybody 2023. yeah cheers