Catalyst AMM: Cross-chain Units of Liquidity and Modular Blockchain Thesis | 0xJim

Transcript

let's say like an island just like forms Amelia ocean out of nowhere right that's like basically a roll-up and it's like okay like everyone's thinking about like how to create this island but then it's like then you're on this island maybe you have your like own native currency for this island but like if you don't really have a um like a very strong internal economy you need to kind of be able to connect to other Islands or other countries that people want to connect to like ethereum like the cosmos ecosystem like Solana um and right now that's not possible really I built Catalyst kind of as a way to alleviate that trade-off right I don't think people need to be making

that trade-off anymore um and I think how we achieve that is basically like tldr it's like through permissionless pool Creations cross chain right it's like when a brand new island spins up right just kind of pops out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean um it actually already comes with like a bridge so to speak right or a way in which you can actually have some sort of like intra or inter island inter um like Nation economy right and and that's effectively what catalyst is able to facilitate all right everyone welcome back to another episode of zero X research before we dive into today's episode I

want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor hexins the most hardcore security team in web3 pioneering in ZK and novel cryptography hexins is trusted by tier one projects like polygon including work on their ZK evm mantle risk zero Lido one-inch new bank and more you'll hear more about them later in the episode but they will be at Booth 832 at permission permission list which is just one week away stop by the booth chat with the team get to know them and don't forget to mention Xerox research sent you there when requesting a quote and that'll come with a free web 2 pen test with the purchase of an audit we are recording this intro today on September 5th and we have a great interview lined up with Xerox gym the founder of catalyst amm a cross-chain

liquidity layer for the modular blockchain future but before we dive into the to the details with Jim there I want to give a quick shout out to permissionless again T-minus one week until the world's largest Define conference comes together to Bringing Builders researchers investors and just crypto degens all into one place in the heart of Austin Texas use code code 0x30 for a 30 discount and we will see you next week in Austin Texas we are joined today by effort capital in Westy to jam on some of the latest Market happenings uh we have a good hot seat cool throwing session for you today Sam I'll throw things over to you to kick us off yeah it's only uh Tuesday actually when we're recording the intro so this will come out on Wednesday but we've already

gotten two pretty big announcements today we heard metamasks say they are launching a new feature called cell which allows you to get from your crypto portfolio within metamask to uh Fiat in your bank account very quickly and seamlessly it's going to be available in the US UK and parts of Europe for ethereum mainnet and they have plans to launch on l2s in the future and then this comes just you know a week or two after PayPal announced their stable coin and notably the metamask feature I just mentioned the cell feature is actually going to be eligible to be used with a PayPal account so I find you know those two things kind of synergistic potentially and then we also heard Visa announced that it will be extending its usdc settlement pilot but this time it will be using Solana and World pay and

nouvet as partners for that pilot which is super interesting because up until today it's been on ethereum with crypto.com and circle so it seems that they see something intriguing on the Solana blockchain for usdc settlements uh on the back end um obviously there's a lot of big advantages with this one I can only imagine as a business how awful it would be to have so many different bank accounts and all these just different jurisdictions and trying to keep them all straight and then you've got weekends and then holidays and stuff so it really does make a lot of sense uh but yeah nonetheless it's been a pretty busy day and it's pretty encouraging to see some of these uh on and off ramps start to get further developed I wish metamask would have called their

features something other than sell um but I guess that's just bear Market things yeah for sure it's uh we harped on this a little bit last week so I don't want to bang on on that drum too for too too long but all of the usdc catalysts are becoming pretty extreme right so we have this visa on Salon integration we have the beam and Visa integration Shopify sap and of course this coinbase and circle deal there's this the chart has bottomed the usdc market cap is a great indication of if nothing else at least U.S investor sentiment with crypto right because if U.S investors want to onboard into crypto generally going to go through coinbase base using usdc that chart has been completely down only but we have a

ever-growing list of Integrations and major connections that are in my mind truly putting a bottom on that chart it'll be great to see that kind of turn around um amongst the other catalysts we have coming up over the next few months but you know hopefully we can get a good Strong finish to the year here yeah I'm overall really bullish on I think just payment rails are overall we've seen over the past couple Cycles now that stable coins are really the the killer application for Francine finance and overall defy um and I think this is really going to be the the major you know all these different businesses uh and obviously P2P Payment Solutions uh I think it really could be like the killer application of this next cycle um it might sound boring like an

on-chain venmo but I think or like an on-chain Apple pay but I think we've seen that stable coins have found product Market fit much further Beyond like what other D5 applications and nft platforms have had um and I think this is really really promising and and like Dan said I'm maybe not as bullish but I'm I'm hoping that the usdc market cap bottom is in uh because I think that the market really needs it and plus one to the uh to the Solana people here right this the Visa cited strictly coming to Solana because it was fast that that's the thesis is high throughput blockchains are going to be in demand and thinking about a payment Network that does tens of thousands of transactions per second

you're gonna need a fast blockchain that that was the bread and butter thesis for for the Solana team out there and and credit to them it's it's coming through we're seeing it in real time I'll be honest so I'm a little bit surprised like that they I don't know didn't go with an app chain or a roll up like you'd think they'd want more control over the the actual stack that they're building on like you could see some problems potentially happening like it's a lot of downtime let's say that would happen again in the future a little bit shocking to me that they wouldn't want a bit more control over the stack but nonetheless yeah that that speed has definitely got to be a huge Factor because obviously as a roll-up you'd have to wait to post a proof or um you know be be contingent upon the

other activity occurring on that roll-up if they chose an optimism arbitrum ZK sync era that kind of thing so yeah it's going to be interesting to watch play out I could see even like an end state where um maybe over time like the app chain thesis you're obviously seeing it in like the L2 World um app specific block space feels like the future for mature products to actually reach product Market fit have a wide have a large community need to customize their ux to um to again optimize the overall experience for the application as they grow like you can maybe see Solana's maybe Solana does Verge into like a app specific block space specifically for payments and if that becomes like the de facto payment app chain and then maybe Cosmos l2s Avalanche subnets or what

have you like as other mature products start leveraging other Tech Stacks obviously like the major uh problem here is like you need native interoperability across these different ecosystems but maybe like the killer use case for Salon is strictly payments and then maybe defy and other uh you know areas uh actually like Branch out to like app specific box space uh for their own product but also for Visa all they're going to be using uh Solana 4 is payments which I think is a pretty simple use case like you definitely don't need your own app specific block space um for that specific just like one function but you could see them over time you know when they become familiar with Solana maybe either forking it or

using the svm going to roll up in the future when maybe they do want more app specific block space and there's more things that they they want to do on chain but for now I think just sort of testing the waters and seeing you know how Solana Works getting more comfortable like we know Visa is very crypto native with stuff that they've released in the past in terms of research so they've definitely done their due diligence and I know like this is definitely a first step for them building an ecosystem yeah I think the eclipse team is is bringing the svm to a role on top of ethereum so I think that was targeted to launch 2024 or sorry at the end of 2023 so the end of this year in the next few months definitely don't know that for a certain but uh that'll

be interesting to see if we do get you know if you can get the svm plus ethereum security might be the ultimate place to start building things but I I think we're still need to prove that actually works first but effort maybe we throw it over to you for the uh the next hot sequel Throne yeah so while Salon is on the cool throw and I think overall uh on you know Fiat on ramps and off ramps with stable coins you know flourishing the salon aside um ethereum researchers I think the overall ethereum ecosystems on the hot seat today then they're coping over uh Lido's continued market dominance in the liquid staking category um you're seeing a lot of talk on Twitter from pretty prominent researchers or you know thought leaders in the ethereum

ecosystem space talking about um why Lido should should self-limit um and how other smaller LST providers that have like less than two percent market share are promising the self-limit uh to not grow Beyond 22 market dominance uh in the event that they grow that large and Lido falls to the Wayside which I don't think that's happening uh it's really easy to say when you have you know one to two percent market share that you promise not to grow Beyond 20 you know a 10x multiple of that uh in the future um you're seeing ethereum researchers talking about they should potentially enshrine liquid staking uh to remove like the the worries of of Lido gaining greater than 33 market share which they're almost there at this point I

think they're like 32-ish percent today uh I've seen talks about forking Lido to have a more uh incentive aligned LST provider uh that promises not to generate or grow more than 22 market share um you know the overall argument is that if Lido has more than 33 percent market dominance and that hurts ethereum's credible neutrality Lido essentially becomes a governance rapper over ethereum which specifically was never meant to have on-chain governance um you know I think it's really short-sighted not only does it harm like the I think on one side like does it potentially harm credible neutrality of ethereum potentially but I think in the event that the the pendulum swings both ways if ethereum as a community decides

that lighter is too powerful decides to enshrine liquid safety into the protocol or decides to straight up Fork Lido and then make something that's more incentive aligned uh on you know via the lens of social consensus um that harms like the property rights of of developers and of users of ethereum um you know I I think that ultimately the reason why ethereum is valued so greatly compared to other high throughput layer ones is because of its property rights because of its leniness because of this meme of credible neutrality because in my opinion it is mostly mostly a meme um also at the end of the day these are humans operating validators these are humans operate you know working on on-chain Rails um I don't think any protocol can truly be credibly neutral but I think there's

a lot of short-sightedness in the ethereum community and they really forget like a couple years ago when liquid taking was first around uh or first envisioned like we easily could be in a world today where centralized exchanges are majority of the stakers of ethereum uh the reason why centralized exchanges like coinbase or Kraken or Finance are not like the Monopoly Powers over over ethereum as a proof of State Network as specifically because of Lido um Lido's also implementing a staking router that's going to help diversify stake of liquid seeking tokens uh to smaller validators in in the set um and they're also implementing dual governance in the future where staked holders will actually have veto rights over Lido in the event of like a

malicious act by Lido government or Lido governance um so I think there's a lot of things that's showing that Lido is trying to become incentive aligned with ethereum long term I think you can argue there's not one other protocol in crypto today that's more aligned with ethereum than Lido maybe uniswap um but you know I think there's a lot of uh short-sightedness from the ethereum community and I think not realizing that we're going to ultimately have like a winner take folks are a winner take all scenario in open source world where Network and liquidity effects really drive I think uh brand and overall market dominance in the future um again it was kind of like it's obvious that this was going to happen um so you know I'm really rooting for light up and

I I think the the cause for concern is is overblown yeah I'm sure we all have a lot of thoughts on this but for me like I understand the concern around one entity having so much stake but I think with this specific self-limiting at 22 I think it loses a lot of nuance of you know what's really needed I think first of all if the only solution you have to this is asking and begging the protocol themselves to self-limit I think it's a problem with the underlying design and not a problem with that one entity just doing what's in their best interest so I think if you want to solve this you got to do it from you know mechanism design

from a core protocol perspective second of all I think the 22 percent is kind of arbitrary and limiting just based on the number of eth I'm not sure is the best way to go about it um specifically I mean I think the reasoning behind that is because if you limit to 22 or under then it will take at least four entities to collude in order to get 66 of the stake I believe that's the reasoning behind it but at the same time when you look at the design of these LST protocols it's not like it's one entity staking this eth there are decentralized solutions and Lido is obviously working towards those and not like in governance as well where they have dual Auto token

governance where steath holders will have the ability to veto anything that ldo holders uh pass which is super important as well as building out their staking router which allows for more decentralized entities that stake the eth on the user's behalf Etc and I think it you should look less so at the number of eth staked by these operators and instead look at you know the underlying design because as long as it's aligned with ethereum then I think that's good enough for me and yeah you said it effort that I don't know if there's any doubts more aligned with ethereum than Leto is and it's in their best interest not to self-limit but it's

in their interest to have a design that is aligned with the success of ethereum and its proof of stake model so that's sort of My overall thoughts on the the situation yeah I tend to agree with you there Westy I mean if if that kind of like breaks down into three things for me right so you have the staking router which is going to improve the operational side of Lido and working towards a more decentralized outcome then you have staked eat holders getting veto governance rights thus protecting themselves from the ldo holders and any decisions they make and then if you have those two things you're already getting this more mature protocol and as that progresses you lead you're probably going to end up in a world where ldo holders are getting less and less

control over the core operation of the protocol not from a voting sense but in for more of just like a ossification sense right if you have this very mature protocol that is proven to operate in the way you want it it's likely not going to change that much over time so personally kind of thinking this is going to resolve itself as those things happen but to your point about like don't hate the player hate the game it probably comes down to some of those design decisions that were made on the ethereum protocol itself and you know we had we don't have that delegated proof of stake Network that say you see in the cosmos and that kind of makes having this uh enshrined LST system a little bit more challenging because at the end of the day people hold eth and they don't want to run their own validator

that's what we're seeing and what what's your other option it's like okay well okay am I going to use the the LST that everybody else is using and if it blows up then so be it there's a huge other wave of problems or am I going to go pick this other smaller LST provider that has .02 percent stake of of total steak and go you know risk that there's a smart contract bug there like so that's the decision we're forcing people to make and I just don't see how we can really expect a different outcome personally jokingly if you want to see what the future of ethereum looks like it's literally the cosmos ecosystem it's literally the cosmos Hub it's delegate proof of stake here we go look hey it's the truth right like if they did it over like a longer

time Horizon they were able to create this credibly neutrality meme that allows ethereum as an asset to be like this you know ultrasound money great Bearer asset that nobody can control there's no on-chain governance but look at it you're like yeah it maybe they started off like that but in the next couple years lydo is going to be the on-chain governance uh rapper for ethereum there is going to be delegated proof of stake uh just through like the staking router and through liquid taking tokens as a whole um you see I you know eigenlayers obviously trying to become like this replicated security interchange security provider for ethereum um but one cool thing I think that Cosmos is building now and it's or it's not built it's built but it's launching on the cosmos Hub uh this month currently a governance proposal is up uh

to implement it it's called liquid staking module what that allows the cosmos Hub to do is be cognizant of the amount of stake that is being uh liquid state uh you can actually look at it at like a liquid would take a provider level so you can say oh stride has this much of the stake liquid staked you can do a lot of interesting things with that you can not just like self-limit a given provider if you want to do that you can also limit how much liquid's taking uh Market penetration there can be so the liquid safety module is going to be launching uh in later this month and it's going to impose a limit of 25 of the stake being liquid staked saying no you know uh if shrad wants to grow to 100 Market dominant it literally can't the cosmos Hub prevents uh once 25

Market penetration is hit it prevents more tokens being liquid state it also aligns the validators with uh the liquid taking providers so each validator essentially has their own liquid staking token and stride and other liquidating providers kind of create like their own wrapper around these individual validator uh liquid taking tokens uh to consolidate liquidity but what these individual validator liquid saving tokens do um in the event of like a particular validator misbehaves uh you can slash like that one validators um you know tokens and pretty much it forces uh validators to self-bond a percentage of their atom uh to their validator so like they they have some skin in the game so if in the event they

do something maliciously they're they're bonded assets actually get slashed first um so there's a lot of like interesting mechanism design around liquid staking that I think like if you go back to the original origination of liquid zaking it started in Cosmos they were the first people to come up with delegation shares of liquid state assets or a proof stake assets for for validators um and I think they've kind of seen where the the ending state is or the end game is for liquid seeking and they're trying to create mechanisms in place to uh I guess prevent some of the concerns that ethereum is currently facing all right well I think that's probably a good place to to leave things off for this week and we will jump over to the interview with Xerox gym talking all things Catalyst amm thanks a lot guys all right everyone today we are joined

by Xerox gym the co-founder of catalyst a pro amm purpose built for the modular future uh so Jim thanks so much for coming on today we're super excited to just jam on the ideas of wire building Catalyst and you know it kind of like peels back uh the the layers of the modular thesis as a whole but uh set the scene for us man why do you think or why do you believe so strongly that the future of blockchain is modular yeah first of all things thanks for having me on board I'm excited to kind of jam about modularity and Catalyst and uh why I think catalyst is super good for kind of the the world that that we're working towards as a community um why I think the future is modular um I'll kind of keep it brief because I

think we can tell if I could talk about it for for quite some time but I do think the net of it is just um when you look at you know how the space is moving um and maybe looking at even like analogies from like a um like a uh distributed systems perspective or like a um like a database perspective you can kind of see that we're working towards a world where it's like we need horizontal scalability in this case of like block space or you know whatever you want to kind of Define it as a kind of like decentralized compute trustless compute et cetera et cetera um but you need to have some sort of

like shared infrastructure in order to like achieve that horizontal scalability um and and you need some level of customization as well right so it's like again the two things are like horizontal scalability and then some sort of customization of of that kind of decentralized computer block space um and so I think the only way in which we can really do that and again we can look at analogies again from like a database perspective um is around some level of like shared services and leveraging those shared services in order to like achieve kind of this you know um this kind of end state that we want again that achieves that those two purposes right of like being horizontal

scalable right um you know I think from a database perspective it used to be like okay like you had your computer and then you had some sort of like General like um like shared infrastructure and like an on-premises level and now we have like cloud computing with AWS and gcp and stuff like that right it's like pretty similar from a Blog space perspective where it's like oh God you have different blockchains you might even have app chains right but like you need to bootstrap some sort of security mechanism you need to have some sort of data availability and now you're like okay well if we just obstruct some of that stuff have execution actually make it very kind of um customizable in that perspective we can share some of these other things that we still need to have kind of shared Security on

um and and I think that's kind of like the big reason why we need modularity um set in a somewhat succinct manner absolutely absolutely and I'm just curious so you know today we have I don't know somewhere on the order of let's just call it 10 like meaningful or potentially meaningful blockchains when you look out to this end state is that you know hundreds of blockchains thousands of blockchains millions of blockchains I know that's like kind of a hard question to answer but just directionally like how many chains do you see the world evolving to yeah I do think it comes down to like how you define chains right um but if we Define it as like like block space or that you know like

applications are using applications in this case like application protocols like Ave uniswab I do think we're gonna probably see millions of them um I do think that in the future every application will basically have its own chain or you know I'll call it like a roll-up or an execution layer um the same way how like every kind of application basically um in in kind of the web 2 world has its own kind of cloud instance right it's like as as elastic as you need it to be it doesn't even really make sense you know at no point in my saying oh like this Rinky Dink website that I want to

throw together like uh it doesn't make sense for it to be its own like AWS instance I'll have it combined with other ones it's like no I just do it right because it's like so trivially um like an increment it's like such a trivial incremental cost to me and so I feel like it's going to be the same way right so it's like all every application would probably be its own roll up slash modular chain slash whatever name you want to call it and if there's going to be like a plethora of different applications like I don't think it's you know ludicrous to say that there's going to be millions of these chains okay that tees us up pretty nicely too into the question of all right so how does Catalyst solve some of the problems that's going to come along with having millions of different Roll-Ups or

chains if you will execution environments yeah definitely so um I think the big problem that catalyst is trying to solve is um like what do you do after you kind of have this new chain live right um and so there's kind of like well there's two points like one is like I think there's a lot of projects thinking about like how to actually create a new chain or a new roll up right you have all these kind of these World Frameworks or you have Roll-Ups as a service that kind of have like no code deployments with a bunch of infrastructure like you know like a block Explorer or what have you

um kind of with it um I don't think there are enough projects really thinking about like what happens afterwards and so I very much see Roll-Ups as like um like a brand new kind of nation so to speak it's like um you know like let's say like an island just like forms Amelia ocean out of nowhere right that's like basically a roll-up and it's like okay like everyone's thinking about like how to create this island but then it's like then you're on this island maybe you have your like own native currency for this island but like if you don't really have a um like a very strong internal economy you need to kind of be able to connect to other Islands or other countries that people want to

connect to like ethereum like the cosmos ecosystem like Solana um and right now that's not possible really um so to speak um you know I think when a lot of people think about like when new chains are launched the first thing they talk about is like okay like what are like how do I Bridge there right like how do I actually like access some of these chains um and so the way that kallus kind of thinks about it is um and again the second point I want to bring up was like stemming from my experience at Ave because when I was at Ave um like I thought a lot about like how do you make like an application specific execution environment whether it be a roll-up or a chain that kind of served

the needs of of you know of of my team um and I think like the glaring thing again was very much like okay like in a multi-chain multi-deployment world in which you're trying to achieve composability day making your own app chain kind of defeats the purpose of that at least using the existing tooling that we have right and so when I kind of left and I had that kind of feeling um of like this this trade-off that that you know Builders needed to make in order to actually decide they want to make their own application specific execution environment I built Catalyst kind of as a way to alleviate that trade-off right I don't think people

need to be making that trade-off anymore um and I think how we achieve that is basically like tldr it's like through permissionless pool Creations cross chain right it's like when a brand new island Sprints up right just kind of pops out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean um it actually already comes with like a bridge so to speak right or a way in which you can actually have some sort of like intra or inter island inter um like Nation economy right and and that's effectively what catalyst is able to facilitate right okay so it's just the idea that in a world of millions of chains uh we need a way to kind of connect these things

and be able to interact uh getting assets or value between chain a and chain B and so catalyst is effectively you know a an amm that can pool assets across various chains so let's talk a little bit about the tech stack before we dive into like you know how those swaps actually occur so there's no base blockchain and Catos is just a series of contract deployments on various chains so how is there like the coordination of communication between these contract deployments yeah so I think that's a pretty good like high level overview right like Catalyst one of the fundamental values of the Catalyst protocol is having these uh execution environments leverage their

own uh like native Assets in order to actually facilitate these cross chain or cross-robe economies right and so it's not beholden to another kind of organization or another project infrastructure in order to facilitate that which we think is is kind of parallel and complementary to a lot of the the values that we have as a community in crypto right around sovereignty and around um kind of um not being beholden to other kind of organizations so effectively like the Catalyst Tech stack is um I'd like to say there's like three layers right and so the the first layer is vaults which store these assets right so you kind of effectively think of it

as just smart contracts that whole assets not too dissimilar to any other application protocol that we're familiar with the second piece is kind of like this coordinating layer um that basically is like a math library that can calculate um a value that we use and well that the protocol uses rather or it actually Court like coordinates uh liquidity transfers between these vaults on different chains and the last piece is our messaging router and so this is basically an aggregator of any possible like cross-chain communication mechanism as well as state verification mechanism right we can talk a little bit more about what that looks like in a second

but how that effectively works is like when you have all those three pieces all of them all these kind of catalyst deployments work in a vacuum so they're not actually aware of what's happening on other blockchains they're just kind of minding their own business on their home chain right but basically what happens is like they're able to receive information through this like messaging router this cross-chain messaging router and then they're able to basically enact logic or um like you know perform some sort of State transition function after the fact uh and that's where like this coordinator mechanism this math library that creates something that we call the unit of liquidity becomes really

important but again we can we can unpack that in in a second if you want but at a high level that's like effectively how it works it's like every Cali smart contract just Minds its own business but once it receives a message from the messaging router from another Catalyst deployment it's then able to do things and it's really the coordinator's role to make sure that like you know what's actually being done after receiving the message is accurate I want to give a quick shout out to hexins as we explore today's blockchain landscape let's take a moment to recognize them as a premiere cyber security provider in web 3 hexins is trusted by Tier 1 projects like polygon including a Security review on their new polygon ZK evm mantle risk zero Lido one-inch new bank and more get a deep dive into your technology stack

with the most comprehensive analysis in cyber security Consulting hexins not only uses widely known methodologies and flows but discovers it introduces new ones on a day-to-day basis with over 55 billion dollars secured they cover everything from Smart contracts to blockchain to web 2 pen tests yeah there's been nearly seven billion dollars of total value hacked in crypto's nascent history so it's safe to say your team has a lot on the line don't skimp out take your security seriously and reach out to hexins don't forget to mention Xerox research for a free web 2 pen test with your partnership and reach out to hexins at hexins.io find them in the links in the show notes or reach out to them at permissionless they'll be at Booth 832 but without further Ado let's get back

to today's episode okay that makes a lot of sense and that's a super helpful kind of high level overview of what catalyst is and like the problem it's trying to solve but before we get a little bit deeper into the actual Tech stack of things I'm curious like who is your ideal customer in your opinion like who wants to use Catalyst because you kind of look at the cosmos ecosystem and you have IBC so maybe that's not a great fit and then you've got some ZK Roll-Ups doing shared provers so there's native interoperability so I guess ideally like in the end state of catalyst who all do you think wants to plug into that network of liquidity yeah funny enough you brought up like a few mechanisms in which um like certain blockchain ecosystems are able to achieve like interoperability

um that actually is very helpful for catalysts right um and it's helpful because I kind of see all these like um these mechanisms as um like when you look back at like the Catalyst stack like these are all just different flavors of what we can use as a messaging router right and actually when we use those things it provides much better user experience for anyone that's actually performing a swab on top of catalyst But to answer your question like our users are Chains new chains in their roll ups right because the value proposition that we're giving to them is effectively we can give you connectivity to literally any other Catalyst

deployment on any other chain and we actually work at least right now very closely with a lot of these chain teams in order to create an economy that makes the most sense right a crosstream economy makes the most sense and there's a lot there's a lot more complexity than people think when you want to build a very sustainable cross-chain economy because there's things like you know maybe people don't want to use wrapped assets or maybe they only want to leverage their canonical Bridge they don't want kind of these third-party ambs to be participating they don't want liquidity fragmentation so there's a little bit of um like design that needs to happen up front and so we work for those chains and we work with those chains users right so like at the end of the day we

still work with individuals consumers we have a UI that people can interact with in order to perform cross-chain swaps and liquidity transfers to whatever domain they want right um yeah maybe I'll pause there I I still know we have that like open kind of uh loop on this like ZK aggregators and and um and IVC and stuff like that yeah maybe this is actually a good time to jump straight into the solutions that you guys are using for the cross chain communication so um I think it might be best actually if we set the scene with like what a transaction looks like and just kind of skip how the swap logic works for now and we'll hit that after but just walk us through the life cycle life cycle of

a transaction um and then we can kind of see where the the communication side comes in yeah definitely so um unpacking a catalyst swap um kind of looks like this and so let's say there is a um let's do like a volatile swap right and so we're not actually doing like a stable coin to stable coin swap which other kind of liquidity Network Bridges do right now um so we want to kind of have a more differentiated use case so let's say there's Ethan ethereum and then Matic on polygon POS right um and then there's a user that wants to um that has eth and wants to acquire

Matic on polygon right and so what would happen is again there's these two Catalyst vaults that live on again like Ethan ethereum and then Matic on polygon the user would then deposit their eth on the ethereum side into the Catalyst fault and so again we're on the vaults then we move down a level where this math Library basically calculates something that we call the unit of liquidity which is effectively like a there's so many ways to kind of describe it but I think a really good way to think about it is like it's a universal receipt for the amount of liquidity that you want that you just put into the pool

that you need to redeem for right and so you always get the same amount of liquidity that you put in and then it actually goes down another level to this cross chain message router where then it just routes you know based on a number of you know preferences that you that you know anyone can specify once the vault is created but basically it can use any arbitrary kind of cross-chain messaging protocol to actually transfer the unit of liquidity alongside some other metadata like you know destination uh you know wallet address or or what have you or slippage tolerance right and so that gets again transferred in this case let's say we're using something like Wormhole right and so it's again

it's going from ethereum to polygon once it's delivered onto polygon um it then goes back into the Catalyst contracts on the polygon side it converts that unit liquidity from uh you know the the amounts that catalysts can kind of interpret into something that's actually usable which is like the number of Matic and then that Matic actually gets withdrawn from the destination Vault into the user's wallet and so for those use from the perspective of user they just you know I you know sold quote unquote eth and then bought Matic on the polygon side similar to how any kind of amm mechanism works okay yeah yeah no I'm following now this actually sounds strikingly similar to

the idea I I mean obviously the volatile acid is a huge difference here but uh Circle cctp where you know you've been burn usdc on chain a get a receipt and then take that receipt to another chain but obviously the unit of liquidity here kind of that's the that's that's what feels like it's the X Factor to me but again before we dive into that whole mechanism which I'm super excited to get to uh I wanna you mentioned a few different uh communication providers there like uh our IBC Wormhole how do you think about which providers um are you connect with because there's like I could see I could I could imagine a potential security risk there um so how do you think about which providers you connect to and then like are those path dependent like let's say you have multiple multiple providers with a path

from like ethereum to Solana always use the same provider or could like anybody opt in to like maybe bid for those or what does that process look like yeah so I do think if it probably makes the most sense to talk about what the end state looks like and then we can kind of like work backwards so the end state is um I see Catalyst as uh like a state verification agnostic application protocol which is kind of like a lot of words but basically we're saying that we have like messages that we want to send and we need some way in order to verify that and we're actually

kind of unopinated of how that's verified um well rather we're we may have a we have maybe we may have preferences on how it's verified right which we'll get kind of get to in a second um but we would want to have kind of the most comprehensive view on all the verifying mechanisms right and so I said differently it's like we'll aggregate a lot of stuff in order to actually do the verification right and so this is where you know having a good good knowledge of the Cross chain interoperability space kind of makes sense because now you're aware of like all the different players and all the different trade-offs that they offer and so something like a POS based blockchain

that's verifying messages right something like an axillar looks very different from a layer zero um which looks very different from native verification using consensus proofs like succinct or like IBC right um and so you can I would say there are preferences that could be kind of um expressed right uh from I think the Vault Creator I don't think us as like creators of the Catalyst protocol necessarily have at the end state will have an opinion on it we want to kind of defer that to the Vault creators uh or maybe we'll have defaults you know if that's like a little bit too much choice to give to to a vault Creator but that's

effectively how we view it right it's like we're an application we're just going to aggregate a bunch of State verification that's like info that we don't care about right um and so that's kind of like the end State how that kind of looks like as like click stops or to achieve that uh obviously it's slightly different right and so right now like we're still in this phase of like aggregating um all the um all the different kind of cross chain interoperability mechanisms uh and we'll probably at least have defaults like protocol level defaults that can be customized um over time right and so for us like obviously security or said differently like mechanism design um is really important for us in terms

of having a more trust minimized approach because that ultimately affects security right which is super important for protocol Builder because one you know we wanna keep operating and two we want to obviously not not harm users and and have kind of like a fiduciary duty to ensure that um and so our kind of vendor selection process and who we Aggregate and and who we kind of Route messages to uh kind of fall witness parameters but again over time like we're going to be much more unopinionated and we're going to have more of this like market-based almost like an intent optimization infrastructure right it's like you put out a message you have some sort of parameters that would in which you want

to optimize for there are people who are bidding I think you mentioned bidding like people they're bidding based on different ambs or different verification mechanisms that solve for that right so it's like if someone cares about trust minimization you're probably going to use like a native verification approach if someone cares more about speed and cost you're probably gonna do more of like a POS slash multi-signature type approach right um so that that's kind of how we see it unfolding and then is that selection uh you mentioned Vault creators is that selection on the Vault Creator or the uh or the user actually making the transaction um I think it's too early for us to say um

I think there's been a lot of debate around that in the community right uh where layer zero like gives a lot of um like ex of that they kind of defer a lot of that expressivity to application developers and other interoperability protocols don't like think application developers don't really care they would prefer if the infra developers actually kind of just had like defaults right um I don't know if you guys were like following that debate uh maybe like earlier this year um and so I think uh for us like we have a design space on like how we want that the Manifest um but you know it's a it's a trivial kind of decision for us to it's it's trivial for us to like pick one or the

other we just have to kind of receive more information over time and make the right call when it needs to happen which is not right now no that's that's totally fair and we were yeah we were talking to uh Brian Pellegrino the the CEO and founder of layer zero and not too long ago and yeah it's like one of the things that we got brought up there it's like you know there's different groups of users that want different things and like sometimes people just want the default like if it's a game with nfts is always his example like you don't need this maximal secure thing um but you mentioned uh that you know it's pretty much impossible to have a conversation on around bridging without the words trust assumptions or trust minimization coming up and uh me personally this might be a selfish question but every time that gets

brought up I love to just get a new a reminder of what the definition of trust minimize actually is uh and so can you walk us through like what trust minimize actually means when in terms of a bridging protocol sure so I have kind of a different take on it um so well I I don't think anyone listening will probably refute it but I think it's somewhat different than what other people say so trust minimization for me means that there are the least amount of um like trust assumptions um in some sort of mechanism that any participant within this distributed mechanism needs to take on right and so

I think how that manifests right now and I think a very popular definition for trust minimization is something that only relies on the base like trust assumptions of the two participating chains right and so when you look at like IBC and they say that ibc's trust minimize what it means is like we're basically trusting like the we're trusting both validator sets of both chains are communicating but what really that means is you're trusting the least secure one right the one with the lowest kind of stake validating the network um and um I think you can actually take that a

step further I think over time we're going to see mechanisms that are even more trust minimized than even trusting the validator sets and that's actually moving away from things like consensus proofs right like that that IBC uses and this is sync uses and and looking more like execution proofs um and so I think the most trust minimized thing you probably have is like a smart contract roll-up on ethereum right because you're only trusting one honest full node on ethereum which is like stupidly easy right because like all the state technically lives on ethereum even though it's all being like you know um all the execution all the

computations being done on like some sort of like roll-up environment um so I think that's like the golden standard that we all need to move towards eventually right uh and how that looks in a cross chain context gets really hazy because it's like okay if they're if they're both if two worlds are sharing a DA layer it becomes really easy if they're sharing a settlement layer it becomes very easy if they're not then what can you do right so that's like the open question that a lot of people in the interoperability space kind of think about right now is like in this you're kind of looking at this like very heterogeneous um environment of like you know different Roll-Ups with different virtual machines and security or sorry

settlement layers and da layers like how do you actually do verification and it looks really really messy and it's hard to scale that and so again it's kind of like an open question about how to really address that in the future of bridging and then so in the context of catalyst does the ability to have a trust minimized swap between chain a and JB that's catalyst is deployed to depend on uh the overlap between the settlement and the da and specifically how the communication protocol that is being leveraged is connecting to both chains yeah I would I would say so um at the end of the day like catalyst is an application protocol right kind of

what I was saying it's like we're kind of agnostic to all this craziness that's happening underneath the hood um but we're ever we're very aware of it right I I actually spend probably the bulk of my time thinking about some of these infrastructure level implications um the more trust minimize the better uh you know we work very closely with the Celestia um kind of ecosystem and we we do like kind of the the minimization of of trust assumptions that a builder needs to make in order to leverage a shared da layer but with that said we recognize that this you know in this kind of world of millions of Roll-Ups as chains there's just going to be a lot of fragmented not fragmentation

but a lot a lot of um non-standardization a lot of hydrogenity uh and we actually built Catalyst with that in mind right it's like great if there's just like a shared settlement layer and everyone's just using a roll up and there's like you know with a shared sequencer it's great ux et cetera et cetera uh but Catalyst as you can probably glean from going through the tech stack uh is built for a lot of different ways right um and uh and we're probably we're probably not going to see that change at least I don't think so in the near future and I think we're well positioned to kind of um be uh well we're Well Suited irrespective of like how this kind of infra level changes occur

yeah that makes a lot of sense and honestly kind of like building your protocol from the standpoint of knowing you can't predict the future is probably the right approach to take so I like that but uh Switching gears a little bit um over to the amm and swap side of catalyst I wanted to talk a little bit about how swaps are actually processed can you explain to us uh the units of liquidity uh metric that you mentioned a little bit earlier in the conversation you know how exactly that's calculated by catalyst amm yeah so we kind of walked through a swap life cycle at a high level and everyone probably saw that uh I kind of hand waved this like really important piece of it right and so effectively like it was just kind

of like the Crux of exactly how Catalyst even works in the first place um and so again it's like vaults people put in money and then this coordinator creates this you know liquidity it's sent through some routers you know liquidity does all this you know crazy stuff and and it kind of just works so the unit liquidity is not like magic nor is it like a black box um we actually have a you know our white paper out and so folks that are interested in uh kind of the more formal math of it can can review it but effectively what the unit of liquidity is is maybe I'll say what it what it literally is and then I'll probably use a few

analogies that might be helpful uh so it literally is the calculation of um of um like a it's basically like the okay so it's a it is literally the integral of a price curve right and so when you look at like a uniswap um amm everyone's pretty familiar with like concept market makers and x times y equals k um a catalyst is an am2 so so it works the same way uh the only difference is that it works within the context of just one asset uh as opposed to two uh and again there's I'm still trying to find the right way to articulate this

but effectively uh we achieve that by using like integrals right it's like let's take the each PO for example so it's like someone's depositing Ethan to the pool uh they're moving along this price curve right and you actually generate an integral this integral effectively says like okay this is how much like liquidity that you've kind of put into this vault uh so you can kind of think of it as like a proportion right it's like okay like I there's a hundred each in this pool I put in one eth um you generate this like air in the curve it's effectively like 10 or in this case one percent of the pool right you then transmit that as a cross chain message into the destination chain and they say okay we're just gonna withdraw one percent of this pool right that's a

super super simplified almost like borderline erroneous analogy views but I think it's a pretty helpful one and so that's effectively what the unit liquidity is right it's like it's just coordinating or it's saying how much liquidity has been deposited On the Origin side and ensuring that the same amount of liquidity or the same proportion of liquidity is withdrawn from the destination side right um so that's like kind of what it looks like formally I think what's been helpful for people is thinking about it in terms of like USD and so it's like okay like there is a million dollars in this pool right and I put in another thousand dollars I have to make I the unit liquidity insurers that I always

receive a thousand dollars coming out of it right plus or minus some slippage um so that's effectively what the U of liquidity is okay so I'm gonna attempt to try to unpack this a little bit so like I understand that you know when you deposit uh let's say ethon the ethereum contract you get this this uh it's not I don't want to say token because it's not a token it's just like this accounting metric uh that holds that piece of value and like that that unit of liquidity is your receipt that gets transmitted to chain B and then you can withdraw that value and so like does the protocol need to be price aware of like you know the value of one each when I deposit or is it strictly just the the raw units uh

within this within this Vault it's the latter and so this is where like you know arbitragers and external participants ensure the harmonization of of market prices right like any other amm mechanism okay so that would mean that you know if there is a million dollars of eth um on chain on ethereum let's say and let's continue with the Matic example that there there needs to be a million dollars of of Matic on on the polygon POS chain is that right yeah and like market dynamics will ensure that that's the case okay now that that makes sense to me right because then once you get that let's say you know I deposited one percent of liquidity on chain a then I can take that unit of account to chain B

and get that one percent of liquidity so that makes sense because if it wasn't going to be price aware I just could not wrap my head around how you would get the how you would be insured that that's the case and so let's talk a bit about that Arbitrage opportunity then so is that just going to exist uh such the case that arbitragers would be able to profitably ensure that's the case or like walk us through what that Mev opportunity would look like yeah so there's a number of ways in which um there is profits to be extracted um it effectively looks like from the deposit side and from the swap side right and so on the deposit side if you

see an imbalanced um you know imbalance vaults like effectively you can like um harmonize the balances to ensure that that um that the values are the same right there's just like an opportunity to make money from that perspective right um so you you receive like a disproportionate amount of like Vault tokens essentially uh in in that kind of Arbitrage opportunity another opportunity is basically um like when you're doing a swap people of course this is well documented like they express their tolerance for slippage right and so when you're communicating the game of liquidity you can effectively

bundle transactions around it to push this transaction to its slippage tolerance bounce and you can kind of take that Delta right um and so we're pretty Mev aware I do spend a lot of my time thinking about Mev as well um and effectively what it comes down to is for designing a protocol that is Mev aware and is able to actually create mechanisms to it to uh have mev's Searchers like effectively pay for the rights of this privileged position um or you know pay for the right to access this this privileged information

uh and or in in doing so we actually accumulate um you know fees or revenue for the protocol that can be distributed to wherever we see fit in this case the default will be to LPS effectively okay so that's in the context of amm design in you know 2023 I think that's all anybody talks about is how can you be an amm and internalize some of the Mev opportunity that's created uh ultimately to benefit LP profitability I think you know IL and lvr these two popular metrics used to measure that in you know being an LP and an amm today is notoriously negative EV so this is a super interesting way to kind of offset some of that and something a lot of

dexes have struggled to do and quite honestly failed to do so I want to know I want to get a little more and like how do you identify when that opportunity exists and that a Searcher is willing to bid for it is there like a a different swap route you would go through and further to that how like is there is I would assume there needs to be some sort of auction mechanism here yeah so the caveat I'll give is that it's not it's not something that we can publicly disclose right now um but there will come a time where we will disclose it and we do plan on you know not having it be proprietary um but effectively how it works comes

down to the Cross chain nature of catalysts uh and uh it'll it comes down to the Cross chain nature of catalyst and when when you look at kind of the transaction life cycle of catalysts or really any sort of like cross chain application you do rely on a set of privileged actors in order to facilitate those transactions right and so you can really not easily but like it's a straightforward um like exercise to basically create a auction type mechanism for those privileged actors right um sorry this is like pretty abstract

but that's like effectively how it how it's going to look the way that catalyst is Mev aware and able to kind of harness some of that um that value generation is due to the Cross chain nature of catalyst right it's like when you have an amm or you have any sort of application that um isn't cross-chain and is basically entirely beholden to the kind of dynamic slash consensus mechanism of the origin chain slash home chain um what we're trying to do like what we're trying to do to capture Mev is not possible for those applications right and so um this is but I think a lot of

applications over time will be more cross-chain and and I think will greatly benefit from that and so I just wanted to like caveat that this isn't like a silver bullet necessarily for everything I'm just wondering how you think about like incentivizing long-term and sustainable LPS is that'll probably prove rather critical for Catalyst functioning properly this is an open research um topic for us and I think just for the broader D5 community um I would say that one lever that is really you know um kind of lucrative to pull is is is on the Mev kind of recapture um kind of mechanisms that we discussed another piece is around

um creating like logic around lping such that um fees excuse me um fees will either outweigh in permanent loss or creating instruments that hedge Improvement loss or create or creating brand new kind of financial instruments um that provide delta neutral positions um for for uh for LP deposits right and so funny enough this is actually a series of research that we're about to post in the coming weeks um but I can talk about it because you know it's just research

um so one piece of it is um you know having logic um on the protocol that ensures that that basically tries to maximize LP fees right um within the boundaries of like you know having still like seamless user experience and and not kind of deteriorating from organic volume within a protocol and so you mentioned like lvr which I think is is a perfectly good kind of research um research experiment or or research metric there's been like more kind of um like more how do I say this like um like real world kind of applications

of lvr like I think Flair is is another one that that is really fascinating uh and some Protocols are trying to implement that metric as well in order to to maximize fees um and then around like um you know the creation of uh certain hedging instruments um leveraging derivatives or leveraging um basically like um either like creating derivatives that help LPS or treating um like these liquidity positions like derivatives where you're basically um like selling volatility um or you have some sort of like option selling strategy in order to ensure Delta neutrality

um that also is like I think actively being explored on in the D5 industry and so I think those are some other lovers that can be pulled in order to maximize uh LP returns um I think putting that aside there is a big discussion that's happening around what what does it mean to serve like what does it mean to help LPS or what does it mean to create mechanisms or um or products that maximize LP returns and like why we need that right um and so I guess like

a bit abstract but it's around like Capital efficiency it's like okay like do we want LPS for tvl sake or like do they actually serve a certain purpose how do we like create enough tvl LPS um or slash liquidity deposited that just achieves the purpose of the protocol right because like liquidity Mining and like even having tvl in general as it came out you know like early 2020 was to service a product right it's like okay we'll always have liquidity for this lending protocol or always have liquidity to do the swap right so it's like just getting more and more liquidity even if it's not actually benefiting the actions that these protocols want to or

the experiences that these protocols want to be creating uh kind of the piece of the purpose right so like there's a bit of like an existential question around that as well um and I think nothing nothing is greater than um nothing nothing's a greater example of that than like RFQ systems right they're like let's do away with LPS and just kind of service the core experience that we've wanted to Service as an industry which is just like swapping assets right and it's like okay well then you have like privileged actors how do you decentralize it make them not Proto doctors how do you capture Mev in that example and I think there's a slew of projects that are kind of thinking about them I won't name drop them here but

um yeah it's kind of a another kind of somewhat orthogonal Pursuit right but I think relevant in the grand scheme of kind of D5 mechanism design yeah yeah right on I think that makes a ton of sense in the direction you're pushing there and at the beginning it sounded like we're getting Dynamic fees so for that we thank you um but I'm curious if are there any like theoretical bounds to what amm uh invariance would be possible here like because you need to calculate down to the unit of liquidity rather than like the y-axis asset for example like would a univ3 type concentrated liquidity defined by the LPS work or something like a curve V2 automated constant concentrated liquidity that's rebalanced

by the Traders rather than the LPS like is is there basically any infinite design space on the amm curve uh yes especially because of the way in which um like the price curves are designed um basically catalyst is like as customizable as flexible as the human imagination as it pertains to invariance um yeah so we it was kind of like a byproduct of of creating the protocol not necessarily you know like uh something that I think people are really craving but I do think it allows for More Design space and allows allows the protocol to be future proof that's awesome well that's a that was a great overview of kind of like you

know how it is how it works what needs to happen as far as communication goes so I I gotta ask you where are we today I know we're live on testnet but which which chains are integrated and ultimately when are we hitting mainnet yeah so right now we're we're on testnet but we call it our demo um so it was basically showcasing our UI to do swaps um in kind of a limited functionality perspective um so the demo is live on um Kanto um Chronos and scroll which kind of showcased like um like Cosmos to to roll up swaps which we thought uh which got a lot of kind of

buzz uh when it came out a few months ago um but we we'll deprecate that demo because it's a demo at the end of the day just shows something uh something limited and so we'll have our real test net uh coming out next month uh and then we plan to be on mainnet uh by end of the year awesome love to hear that well we're coming up close on the year end now that this year's been blowing by but I'm excited to kind of get my hands dirty and play with something more than just the demo and as far as integrating new trains like what needs to happen from a technical perspective just given that it's a series of contractors appointments so um you know assuming you already have the code base written for that particular Chain's language is it as simple as just you know making an

agreement amongst the team or how does that work to get a new chain deployment it is stupidly trivial um so it really comes down to what the business case looks like right uh and again this is like full training wheels on uh so it's somewhat manual uh in terms of a decision-making process in the future especially as we see the scale that we want to see of like hundreds of thousands and then millions of roll ups it will be truly permissionless right permissionless deployments using any sort of roll-up framework slash Ras framework uh that these new chain slash rollup teams are using

um so yeah so so ultimately comes down to comes down to to the business case for us right now um not not even from like uh overhead perspective because that's quite trivial it's literally from like a uh just a focus perspective go to Marcus Focus perspective right it's like probably doesn't mean anything if someone if a project comes out and you're on like 50 chains right so we'll be on a handful of all of the meaningful ones I would say um yeah actually yeah uh we've seen a lot of proof points that validate Catalyst and its value uh as well as where we see the space moving in the past few months with uh you know bass uh

coming out and a bunch of other new chains getting announced or getting launched um I think it's very timely for for Catalyst to come out so I'm excited for that to happen do you think this model could theoretically ever plug into native Bitcoin or just given bitcoin's restrictions never would be possible uh it's an active research area for us I would say interesting yeah that seems to be one of the the pain points of all cross chain infrastructure really I think Thor chains one of the only ones I can think of that does have uh you know native integration with with Native Bitcoin of course different set of trust assumptions there but nonetheless I think that's pretty fascinating so super excited to see if you guys can get something worked out there

yeah I think I think that's an active uh active research or active point of exploration for us because right it's Bitcoin like the liquidity there alone is is is worth kind of the the engineering slash research hours that we put into it yeah and so zooming out a little further back into the more modular space as a whole you guys recently somewhat recently announced uh you're working alongside Celestia uh to kind of build out so the ropes or interoperability for the role of space uh on that da layer what is what specifically is is catalyst doing to kind of connect to these Celestia chains and and how does that ultimately help the the business case for Catalyst as a whole

yeah so Celestia is something that we're really excited about because um one as I mentioned before I think the user experience of having a shared da layer is is really great for chain slash Roll-Ups that are built on top of them um two um I think they have or the team has been contributing to a really kind of well thought out solution and roll kit um as part of kind of the roll-up framework conversation um and so all that to be said like um like we like working within the

Celestia ecosystem and kind of uh showcasing uh the power of catalyst and so how that effectively looks is using roll kids as kind of like a distribution mechanism for catalyst so to speak so it's like chain Builders are using uh they're building their their chain slash rollups using roll kit um can have a have a catalyst deployment at launch and then again it kind of allows for the connectivity to every other Catalyst deployment and every other chain out of the box so that's like effectively how it looks um like tactically uh and then like again because of the shared da layer aspect um we can actually have a lot of kind of user experience on locks in terms of

reduced latency of swaps between the chains using Celestia so um really exciting stuff and again a very very bullish on the ecosystem so I like participating in any way we can yeah that's a super interesting idea to think about is you know if they really do nail that Vision where a builder can just go on and you know it's like a no code environment where you're just clicking a series of check spots check boxes of how you want to deploy your chain you know I could imagine one of those check boxes being deployed with catalysts and already have the contracts natively on the chain that could be super exciting um very interesting future to think about nonetheless and they kind of like also makes you think about you guys also have a partnership with Eclipse I

believe or you're doing some work with them as well and that kind of the same narrative right any of these roll up as a service offerings kind of seem like a natural fit is is that the case in your mind yeah absolutely yeah and we've found a lot of uh a lot of excitement from the teams uh an ecosystems I would say for for what we're trying to bring that's awesome well Jim this has been a fantastic conversation really enjoyed you coming on the show and giving us the ones and twos on Catalyst and the modular thesis as a whole uh I'd love to give you the opportunity to tell the audience more about uh Catalyst and where to find more about it and yourself as well I know you're on Twitter yeah sure so Catalyst uh has a very very ambitious Vision

um we are a liquidity Network we're an amm um that is connecting Every Chain you know irrespective of anything from language to VM to Da layer to whatever whatever right like we believe in a future of millions of chains and Roll-Ups we believe in that kind of landscape being very heterogeneous and catalyst is kind of built with that in mind to connect literally all of them so that's that's kind of what we're marching towards um we're on Twitter at Catalyst amm I'm on Twitter too at Xerox gym although I'm basically just a catalyst retweeter at this point uh so just a wrapper around

another Twitter account but uh yeah that's where uh that's where people can follow us I thought for sure we're about to get the first ever uh friends friend Tech chill right there from you just given the recent environment oh no I'm kidding uh well we'll put those links in the show notes for sure but thanks a lot Jim this is a great conversation man take care yeah thanks for having me [Music]