The C.A.K.E Framework, Credible Accounts, and Resource Locks

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup today's video we have a really interesting interview with Stef fallen from one balance some of the pioneers of what is known as the cake framework which I've been tweeting about quite a bit recently as I think that chain abstraction is the solution to this module fragmentation problem we talked about credible accounts resource locks the idea behind me in the chain of exraction lscape as well as whether or not every single user will be their own rollup in the future we also talked about some things like local consensus and other interesting ideas that Stefon has been recently tweeting about hope you guys enjoy of course welcome back to the roll up quick word from our lovely lovely sponsors and then we will Jump

Right In welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and FRA the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the

fra stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this fraxel L2 joins the existing Suite of frax products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see frax fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity Everclear is pioneering the clearing

layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where ever comes in ever is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction feature check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the L up what's going on guys welcome back to the

rollup today we have an interesting conversation about what I like to consider the intersection of chain abstraction and modularity it's kind of how I've been thinking about it this chain abstraction being is this antidote for this modular future of of scaling all all these different chains and we've seen quite a few different interactions and also ideas being toed around so I think that we're going to try to clear the air today on some of these and discuss what Stefan and the one balance team have recently launched credible accounts credible stack and more um as as well as some of the work that they've been doing at Frontier research so welcome in and um yeah the fun welcome to the rollup it's the first time here

hey guys yeah super excited to be here um yeah we can dive into into everything um I know we have a packed schedule so uh we'll try to make it as concise and useful as possible sounds great man yeah welcome to the show uh maybe you could start just by uh giving our audience a quick introduction to yourself and to one balance uh and then we'll dive into all the very cool research that you guys are doing yeah of course uh I'm Stefan so I've been building on ethereum for a very long time I started in 2017 I've sort of looked at every single layer of of the stack worked a lot on standards worked a lot on the community um my previous project was Flash bots so I was one of the co-founders there and we

obviously we shipped Mev gu and Mev boost which sort of says a lot about how meev is is processed on on ethereum um but I've since left that and I've been running a research organiz a for for a little while that just aims to sort of accelerate some of the the Technologies and trends that that I foresee as being useful for uh for the cryptocurrency space um and our latest project that we just sort of unveiled not too long ago is it's called one balance um and so one balance is it's a framework for uh deploying credible accounts credible accounts being something we can we can dive a little bit more into but the entire goal with it is to drive towards this uh this abstracted future um so

yeah super excited to dive into anything that uh that may be interesting yeah I think what would be super cool and what what we've been asking is like maybe you could provide us with your definition of chain abstraction like what does that mean to you and and and to one balance and like how do you yeah like how do you uh tangibly uh explain chain abstraction yeah I think the um the Ever Clear folks were sort of one of the first ones to to talk about this um but I think chain obstruction is a vision that the space has been driving towards for a very long time um certainly I was working on these kinds of Technologies back in 2019 which is way before there were any any chains um but the the goal

for it is to really creates a user experience of using web 3 that is scalable enough and um intuitive enough for you know having a billion concurrent people using uh using web 3 and so when you ask this question how do you have a billion people with various different levels of sophistication technical sophistication using a system it starts to make you ask a lot of questions around scalability usability all these different things and so I'd say you know chain of exraction is kind of a uniting flag for anyone that cares about this problem to uh to Rally together and say how do we how do we enumerate and solve uh the various different challenges that involves awesome okay and uh there's very very

uh very many pieces that that uh make up that vision of getting people uh a million or a billion concurrent people all using this single state machine at the same time um and so I mean when you're thinking about that like what are what is kind of like the landscape of the the current landscape of chain abstraction and where do you think are some of the missing pieces um and then we can go into like you know how you guys are approaching some of this problem space uh We've you know it's a super fast-moving area right I think every week we're seeing new projects uh set to launch and try to um to offer solutions for chain obstruction our our contribution to the space was to try to

develop some kind of framework that help um people reason about it um we call this the the cake framework um I don't know if there's a way to like put an image up on on the screen about it but um it says basically a picture it paints a picture of what the the um the system looks like in order to achieve train instruction which is we need to introduce some counterparties that are affecting State transitions on chain on behalf of um of end users um and so um this is a representation of of sort of the one balance view of it using using credible accounts but if if you really what you care about is in the middle you're introducing these these solvers

um these solvers that are that are doing operations on on behalf of the users um and so the the the chain obstruction question in many ways is how do you build an ecosystem that switches away from the idea that users are directly interacting with the chain towards the idea of users interacting with some counterparties are affecting things on their behalf um and uh and you know there's all kinds of different roles that start to get challenged when uh when you build this and so our our goal with the framew to pose sort of this unifying Vision um assign some roles to to the various different players that are contributing to this to the stack um and you know give them some of the the research on what are the hard problems

that U that need to be solved um so uh in in this system here as we sort of look at it our contribution with with one balance is saying a key part of the problem is making it uh secure for solvers to do things on behalf of users and the way that we we do this is using credible accounts and resource locks so that's really the one balance contribution to the whole chain abstraction space it's just a concept of resource locks and providing some mechanisms that allow for securing these which we then call credible accounts and this is like done in the sense of understanding that chain abstraction is is not like a one team

can make this solution work kind a field it's like a you guys have put this stack together and have pinpointed a place where you want to specifically focus on um but with the understanding that it's more of a collaborative approach and that there's different parts of this stack which um you know teams have to work on together to kind of get to this end result exactly like I mean we have an integrated approach to chain of traction already it's called coin base and it's called binance right you know like you're not interacting with the chains directly when you're interacting with them but we're trying to build something that's that's that's a little bit different than that right that's non-custodial that's modular that allows

for plugins to happen and like can create an ecosystem and the only way to do that is uh with Open Standards so entire approach is is around these Open Standards saying like no we're we're a small piece of this um and there's a lot of like really important things that have been built already there's been uh I mean there's been if not hundred like tens of millions definitely like maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars spent already on this infrastructure um and so it would be very very shortsighted for us to come in and say like oh yeah we're gonna rebuild this entire thing from scratch and like we are right and everyone else is wrong like no that's that's not the the correct approach here I think the right approach is to say we have an Insight over like a very small piece of this

that we think we can contribute and we'll drive this forward and then if our goal is to get the the entire industry to to to to realize this Vision together and so it's not just about it's it's not just about us it's about like every other member as they goer of the industry succeeding as well awesome and uh you mentioned that like a key piece of this Tech that allows this to to operate uh securely and let let solvers securely interact with the chain on behalf of users is this resource lock could you explain like a little bit more about like what the resource lock is and how it enables uh this this secure solver ecosystem yeah so this this gets a little bit into into the weeds of of how

one balance works so I'll try to to bring everyone on this journey with me in explaining it um so there's this this problem called the equivocation problem which is pretty fundamental to to any chain and if you look at sort of how proof of stake mechanisms work they're all about trying to resolve the equivocation problem so equivocation problem is how do you prevent um a user from signing two different messages that are both considered valid by the system um and there's all kinds of mechanism that you can sort of engage in to to to achieve this the main way that people do this today is by saying oh the user is going to lock up their assets on chain somewhere right and so if you look at

any of the sort of message passing Bridges or even like a rollup Bridge contract right how do you deposit into the rollup well you deposit your assets on chain into the rollup contract um and that's all just to enable the ability for a user to create a credible commitment over their assets being locked up they still own these assets right like they have the assets represented on the rollup um but they've credibly locked it up on on on the on the source chain um so our observation was to say like a lot of people are building mechanisms that rely on locking up assets on a source chain but if that Source chain is ethereum that's really expensive and really slow um so you'd be

much better off if you didn't force everyone to go lock up those assets on ethereum but instead they could just lock it up inside of their accounts that means that they can lock up assets on exist on any chain uh by just issuing some some lock against it um so that's really the the thing that that it unlocks it says you can now do secure cross chain messaging um without relying on a lock on the orang Chain you can simply have a lock on on the account hence credible account and and this equivocation problem um it sounds like it's normally uh like cross rollup transactions it's it's like uh it's not just that you're signing like multiple messages that one

chain considers valid this equivocation problem happens when you sign a message on one rollup and then at a really similar time you sign a message on another rollup and the one rollup doesn't recognize the state of the other rollup and so you kind of have these uh messages that are both valid those rollups but when you consider both of them at the same time they're they're not they're contradictory yeah so this is the the asine problem right because if you're on a single chain right think of it if you're a solver bring someone else's transaction on a single chain in your execution contract you can check the balance of the sender right and then you can revert if the balance is not what it's supposed to be but when you're in

an asynchronous context you can't make that check so you don't have that safety guarantee that protects solver and so you need to develop some other mechanisms that allow allow for for solver production got it um yeah Andy why why are solvers needed to be protected is it like a capital thing is it like a like what's the protection for solvers requirement uh it's to prevent double spending so here's um here's an example okay you have um you have 100 usdc on base and you want want to buy an nft that's traded on Solana right and so you issue this limit order you know 100 usdc

on base for nft on on salana uh for a counter party to to to execute now that counter party has to go buy the nft on salana on your behalf and then credit it to your account right but if in the duration of time that they do this you then spend your 100 usdc into e um then you end up with both the money and the NFD whereas a Sol now has basically bought you an nft for free so that's that's why you need to to lock it up is so that the solver has a time to go get that nft credit it to your account bring a proof that they've credited to your account and then claim the the initial value that you Lo and you me yeah go ahead Andy no I

was just I was just gonna get into like this idea of credible accounts being different from basically EAS or like smart accounts or accounts just kind of like these terminologies here um I I guess what is the the the the key property difference here between a credible account a smart contract account and like a eoa and and maybe there's something else that we could pull up as well yeah let me maybe I'll I'll try to steal the screen from you if you allow me um so yeah should be me so on here if we go yeah we talk about it here so um as you mentioned there's sort of

the concept of external accounts there's the concept of smart accounts right 4337 people are are quite familiar with these um I added State full accounts which is the 3074 7702 stuff that's being talked about more and more um all of these are compatible to become credible accounts um the thing to like note with all of them is they in of themselves have the ability to equivocate so an external account can sign two transactions using the same nons right and from the protocols perspective both of those transactions are considered valid this is why it's able to to equivocate um in a smart account you can also do this in many ways oftentimes it says you can upgrade your account or you can like change the approval on the token that

you've like uh you you've made an approval for you can issue an approval to someone else all of these are ways in which smart accounts are are able to to equivocate and then the exact same thing happens with a stateful account so you can change the delegation of which contract is implementing the the the the logic for this for this external key um and so all of these accounts need to be wrapped with some kind of wrapper that makes it credible and you can do it separately with each of them there's like different approaches to doing so um and all this rapper says is this user for a duration of time or some external conditions cannot do things with the assets that it holds um and so it basically escaros the assets without

moving the assets from the account that it's that it's in gotcha okay so all of these account all of these credible accounts are are very much like parameter based and and the requirement to to onboard into a credible account uh maybe like on a more like practical level here where where are we talking like user has to um pull up their their eoa and like make a credible account and transfer funds and like what's H how does a user uh open a credible account coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers

today in the modular space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coent trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plung intoing these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modu da Solutions or even ethereum Co is able to provide a longterm data storage and data availability platform for that data

after the the time per period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show mantle is a layer to blockchain with one of the biggest onchain treasuries in all of crypto and they have a 100 day campaign called metamorphosis live now what this is is it is a campaign for their liquid staked eth token and eth as well as their upcoming liquid reaking token CM where you can utilize this token on

the mantle Network in a variety of different apps some of your favorite reaking protocols and defi protocols and earn yields in the form of powder which will eventually be turning into a governance token Mantle's been around for a while we like them because they use their own form of I da uh they have a good ecosystem and they're growing so check out this 100 day metamorphosis campaign and hope you guys enjoy the rest on this video yeah so um we have if you go one balance. I think users can already start to create uh these credible accounts so we've opened pre-registration for uh for these accounts um now we haven't yet enabled deposits into these accounts this is

kind of just like preena the the account and and getting ready for uh for the deposits that are going to come um later this summer um but practically speaking it looks very similar to just like onboarding into a new wallet um unless you know metamask comes in and they say we want to integrate natively uh into credible accounts then they would be able to like allow for users that are already using metamask to um to turn their metamask accounts into credible accounts um but for users that are on metamask today and they would like to use this functionality they would effectively need to start using uh new wallets that uh that enable these these capabilities um I think a lot of the

folks that are building um smart accounts it's much easier for them to to deliver this than the folks that are building um yoa accounts because it's a little bit it's much closer to the approach that um that the smart accounts take already users of smart accounts are used to their asset residing on a smart contract on chain somewhere and this would be the same here um whereas uh for for eoas the the path to making eoas credible is a little bit more difficult because it requires users not having access to their seed phrase basically you need to have a Shard of your seed phrase that's within some like MPC environment uh as opposed to having sort of root access onto onto the account this tends to be something that

I just keep coming back to with these um Universal account credible account type of wallets I'm always it's still kind of a a thing to understand for me where I'm like okay we we get this enabling of all these amazing features that we're talking about which make the experience better but like we have to do so in a non-custodial way which obviously you understand but it's it's like it gets into like the wallet and account schematics at like a very deep like programming level which I I think is kind of tough to kind of wrap your head around on like these private keys keys and and yeah it's different than like you know I don't know scaling a blockchain or talking about a you know the layers of of of the mods or stack or

something it's like a deeper level of uh I think the part that's interesting here is it's scary right like I think for a lot of users when you just say like oh now I'm using this chain as opposed to that chain they're like great this chain is like more usable but it like to this date like not your keys not your crypto all of these different like memes have been propagated in in the space are so baked into the user journey of how they are uh interacting with uh with their accounts and it's really really tough to get users to to change I mean I don't know about you guys but I just recently like changed from metamask to to Rabbi but if someone tell like sends me something and they say like yo come yo check out this this this app my default is still to open it in my browser and

then realize oh wait my wallet is not here anymore and then I go to the rabby thing and then I I do it there but like you know as someone that's used a space for long I've been so trained into this existing usage pattern um that changing those patterns is is is really where I think the challenge is with with any of these Technologies okay so I still have not Andy's been telling me to get on rabby for like months now I still I don't know if I'm just dragging my toes to me it's like daunting to like migrate wallets whether that's like a private key migration or like like have to move all of my assets from all my different they literally have a transfer from your other wallet butted like so easy I wanted to just take a quick sidebar and

like can you guys just finally rabby pill me like why am I just I I feel like I'm still unconvinced but I want to be convinced um I don't have any rabie bags I think rabie is a great product though um like what I like about it is the security of the simulation of all the different transaction also I know that like once I load a uh an app inside of it I will like reliably be able to access that app in this like closed window so I don't have all the other that happens in my browser right like if you just have a browser plugin someone could inject uh like malicious uh other like browser extension that like overwrites your your your call data and then like does something else with

it right and then boom apes are gone but if you're in the rabby environment uh you know you're kind of like sandbox within like just the website and the the rabby environment and and that's just like a strictly Superior security model for uh for interacting with stuff so that's that was what got me over the line um but I I know that's not the same for everyone else yeah for me it was like you you could go on any application I just have it in the browser I use like Hardware wallets and things so these kind of ape stolen problem they'd have to ape steal my my seed phrase or or My or they can just feed you bad call data and then your apes are G yeah yeah well I don't have any Apes so hopefully they're going to go after some body else

but i' I've just got like they they do the thing where you can uh swap the the chain um on the apps so you go from one app on ZK sync to scroll to arbitr it swaps and Stefan I kind of joke around about this this is like my current experience of chain extraction is like when rabie automatically switches the apps on the chain that it's on you just got to click the Switch thing immediately like it it picks it up and then it swaps it so um needless to say I'm I'm excited for that transition but yeah I also feel like getting off of Rabbi even from now to like going into something like one balance is gonna be hard for me I almost feel like what you guys are doing maybe isn't even for like

these like OG defi summer yield farmer you know you know 10,000 transactions on chain in the last two years is more like it's more like for for the people who are going to be kind of new to the space I think well I mean you know both you know but that's kind of how I'm thinking about it yeah I I think that's definitely true um I you know folks like rabby and metamask would benefit a lot from providing credible accounts through their stuff and you know just to be clear our goal isn't to like displace these guys right like my goal is to deliver more capabilities to end users and going through existing distribution channels to those users is like much quicker path there than trying to convince a bunch of people to like use a different thing than the metam mask and so the dream there is for metamask and

rabby to integrate credible accounts and like provide these capabilities for for their for their end users to do all this secure cross chain things without having to have a multi-step process right like yeah you can switch to to your um you know rabi can automatically switch your chain depending on the app that you're on but you're still stuck having different balances on different chains right whereas I'm saying oh with one balance you can do the automatic switching and you can use all of your assets regardless of which chain it's on and so that's just like a a much you know a much needed feature for I think anyone that's using these these wallets um to your to your to your your point around uh new users like I do think that this unlocks sort of latent Demand right

so there's a bunch of folks that would be using web 3 that are not because they're scared right just like you know we are scared of changing the approach that we do to wallets that a lot of folks that are scared to set up a wallet at all um and uh and that's kind of like the the latent demand that that that we really want to unlock um and bring to the market how do you approach this idea of like Opus skating for convenience versus like I guess like abstracting for convenience versus obus skating away potential risks and security like you know if someone has wrapped eth and then they have you know they have ethon scroll they have ethon ZK sync ethon optimism ethon arbitrum if we're gonna aggregate all of

that into one single eth balance you know are those really all eth can we call them all eth I think to the to some users they would you know it's all eth but to then more advanced users they're like no like it's an L2 version of of eth and it's wrapped and it has Bridge risk how do you kind of consider like these different security measures and what to expose to users versus what to keep behind the scenes yeah I think it's the wallet that's probably the biggest challenge that the wallet faces um it's not necessarily how do you deliver the capabilities for doing cross train stuff it's how do you manage the trust that the users have given you in a way that aligns with like what they're trying to to achieve and so yes there's going to

be wallets that are more you know Advanced right and allow for uh for their users to manage their balances across all the chains in like a very granular way but I think the majority of the users don't really care about this risk and they're happy to delegate to the wallet to say I trust you to make sure that my e doesn't end up on a Shain that's going to get rubed right and then so then it's up to the wallet to decide like what chains do I want to expose to my users you know what chains do I like allow their eth to be spread over versus not and if a chain gets like uh halted or rugged or whatever right like you have like a rollup that like that gets rugged um then it's going to be up to

the wallet like the wallet is the one that the users is going to come and complain at and say like where's my eth right and so they have to start to think about like how do we recover from those kinds of those kinds of scenarios so it's a it's a tough challenge it's definitely a tough challenge um I don't know what the solution is there like you know maybe these wallets will start to like take out insurance or something against like chain halting uh but uh but it's something that they need to solve in the same way that if you're using binance right you need to think about like what happens if salana hals what happens if whatever else happens um it's up to binance to figure it out so you don't consider one balance a wallet no no no so one balance is a

provider of credible accounts so the only job that we do is we issue secure and resolve resource locks that's all that we do um we want this to be integrated into all the into all the the wallets um and we allow users to create accounts directly with us and we're going to deliver them capabilities but really like our our key job is just dealing with the resource locks got it um just shifting gears a little bit uh and revisiting like one of the one of the earlier uh points about asynchronous communication this was just kind of like buzzing in my mind because we have another take on this chain abstracting world that is trying to

achieve synchronous composability like these shared sequencers how would that I if let's say share sequencers got some pretty wide adoption how would that change the approach that you have to chain abstraction with this more like locking solving and then unlocking asynchronous uh communication yeah I'll share my screen again um so it's tackling the same problem from two different sides is probably like the easiest way to think about it so this is our this is our just our post where we introduce one balance um on E3 search so in the uh in the FAQ at the bottom I said like are you providing pre- confirmations pre confirmations is kind of like a similar way that the universal synchronous

composability right it's like how do you um get validators to orchestrate with other validators to make commitments over something that they're going to include into a future block um this is like the the thing that you need to to to look at is resource locks are users making commitments to solvers pre-confirmation are proposers making commitments to solvers okay and both of them are just to help solvers manage their risk right so on the proposer side is to say like oh because you're having this synchrony between these two rollups you can have uh the protection that you need but um they still benefit from getting the resource locks right the resource locks don't really care how the solver gets the atomicity across the two different chains right uh but the solver

can manage their Risk by doing this the way that I think about it is like this is how we go for this is like an answer to the question are solvers market makers or are they like individuals um the more commitments and uh risk management tools that you can provide to the solvers the less it needs to eat the risk themselves uh through through other means and so this makes the the smaller like a less this makes the solver like a less big centralized entity but it approaches it from two different sides like much lower barrier to entry exactly exactly very cool um I've got kind of a and if you have anything feel free to jump in

yeah actually so um we we're coting an event with espresso and some other folks at the at ECC um that's going to be looking at at this so we have two parallel tracks one that looks at the pre-confirmation base sequencing uh USC all these things and then the other track that looks at resource locks credible stack uh and everything else so that's going to be an event that uh that uh that's going to happen at EC awesome cool we'll uh we'll probably be there uh we'll be run around the streets of Brussels looking for uh pretzels and Waffles so hopefully we can we can meet up um on the on the note of of of the solver being kind of in the

middle between these uh Pro proposers uh passing on pre-com and then um uh man um uh one balance passing resource locks from the from the entity on the left users users of course who can't forget the users is this solver Network something that that you guys are actively uh like pursuing to grow uh I've seen thud on different uh intent based networks of them only having one solver Network or one set of solvers or kind of like how how do you go about like decentralizing this or even if not decentralizing how do you go about making sure this is the most efficient network of solvers possible is it a

collaborative effort with some teams or is it something that you guys are working on as well H H how does that look yeah so we we're not building a solber network ourself um we again we just issue in Secure resource locks we but solver networks is a CR critical part of the of the credible stack so again I'll I keep sharing my screen but I think it's helpful for for the listeners so this is the credible stock right so the credible commitment machine is kind of like where we sit this is like the issuance of of resource locks um these are consumed by by solvers and the solvers provide the Fulfillment for them right and then the chain is providing commitments also to the solvers so but there's a bunch of folks that are building this this component

and have like the existing distribution um and whatnot um and so what we are doing is we launch this thing called the The Fellowship of the one balance which is anyone that's building components on these um we're asking them to come with us and help standardize the interfaces that are being used around around all these things so we have a list here of the solver networks that uh that are on board with with uh with this approach um one thing that that's uh that's really challenging about this level of the stack is solving what we call the um the orderflow tri tremma so we we presented this when we initially released the the cake framework right but basically if

you're if you're implementing an OFA or solver Network um whether it's like Unis swap X or cross like one inch Fusion you have to you have to deal with this uh this problem which is you can't really be permissionless and have optimal speed and optimal price altoe um when you design it you got to sort of pick two of uh two of the three um and so we're seeing you know to your comment of like oh this solver Network only has one solver that's because they compromise on the permission list piece right they say oh I'm gonna run a white list and then that's going to be like an easier way for me to solve this trilemma because now I can trust myself not to provide execution um and so that's that's why you're seeing a lot of this um there's a lot of innovation still that

needs to be had to be able to introduce permissionless into these systems and in theory a permissionless market where anyone can come in and solve transactions would theoretically provide uh quicker and and more affordable uh execution right because then you you open yourself you open up the network of potential solvers to like a wider Market is that does that why doesn't that hold for this case yeah I can talk a bit about like what's the cause of the order flow trima um so when you're running an auction right with whether it's like an RFQ or something else you need to select a winner right and the problem is like what if that winner doesn't execute on what you ask them to execute right then you have a reliability problem and so if

you have an auction that just purely optimizes for price you'll end up with uh reliability the way that people fix this is they say okay now we have a white list of solvers and if you have an execution quality that's below some threshold we're not going to Route orders to you anymore and so they're enforcing good reliability by just gatekeeping on who gets access to the flow um so that's why you you end up in these in these these design Partners I kind of a slight off tangent here how do these sare networks end up occuring like value outside of just being like a service provider like how do they it's almost like they're like a yeah like they're like a service

business that that provides their their services to these different um you know uh teams which which use them but how do they themselves crew like some sort of staying power in the market or any sort of like value worthy of like investment or or worthy of like token or or kind of any of this idea if they can just if there's always just going to be a better one coming in or more teams or somebody who has more money like are they kind of replaceable or how you thinking about these like occurring actual value yeah I think there's like a a couple questions in there so one of them is like how what's the value that's being created by this role in the system and then a separate question is like how does a

solver Network versus an individual solver compete with each other in providing this um this role and like is there room for the solver Network to be able to capture value um I don't really have an opinion on the on the latter like is it like you know a Better Business to run a single solver or to run a solver network but I can talk a little bit as to like what is the value that the solver Network role plays at the end of the day they they're they're doing a fairly complex job job right which is they are taking in limit orders of some sort and then they're routing they're like indexing the entire set of of state and they're doing routing across not just multiple pools but across multiple different chains right um and so that service of like

calculating the route is something that is like valuable and is going to be compensated um as part of the um as part of the the user's execution like this all gets like factored into like the gas cost that the that the user pay is if the user has a bunch of their state on a network that's like really shady and like difficult to get assets off of it the solver is going to quote a higher fee to be able to internalize that risk themselves right and the user is going to be willing to pay that fee because whatever they care about doing that thing on on that Network so there's an opportunity for the solver networks to to to collect the fee um on the service that they that they provide um now you know how is that like played out in the

in the end state of of the the system I'm I'm I'm not really sure yeah I I worry that it's potentially a a like a rich get richer or like a win or take all type of ecosystem because in in my mind the solver with the most money that has the best coverage of these chains is going to be able to solve across it's going to be able to solve the best execution across all these chains that's probably a little bit too simplistic but do you kind of think like similarly if you were to have an opinion on like the solver that would win theoretically would be the one with the most money on most chains yeah that's a capital efficiency question right so if you look back at like the original cross chain me paper

by uh by Alex obadia it sort of comments on this it says like in a cross chain setting like having the inventory on multiple different chains gives you gives you an advantage now there's there's a there's a question which is like is that actually the case or um is there actually you know retail has a lower cost of capital than any sophisticate Market maker would have maybe you can create a system that uses amm on the target chains to be able to lend out to the solvers such that the solvers don't actually need to be holding the the tokens but can just access them on demand um and uh then maybe you have a construct that doesn't actually require the the the solvers to have Capital everywhere at least then they can hold sort of like a stable coin on on all the different chains there's

like capacity constraints so like maybe you have solvers that are like specialized on certain chains and not others because they want to concentrate their capital on those chains um and so any order that goes to blast is like better served by I don't know Eno because that's sort of where their specialty is Right whereas anyone that goes to base you know propeller heads is like no that's our chain we we we're going to be the best ones there um so I think that there's room in this market for for Niche uh to to sort of um to sort of emerge um the thing that you know the thing that I'm trying to contribute to this is just to say you don't need to like factor in such complicated risk modeling on the the execution side because you have resource

locks that allow you to have confidence over the request at least that you know um at least that helps to to reduce the complexity of running that [Music] job cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartei enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's

cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today nice yeah I guess just like kind of as we wrap up here one one question to sort of bring this full circle I'm curious how your experience at flashbox and this cross domain me question has influenced your your work on one balance uh because as we talk about the solver landscape it sounds a lot like the block Builder landscape um in the way that they're sort of like solving The Ordering of transactions um on behalf of a on behalf of a blockchain so I'm just curious like it what are some of the parallels that you've realized you know from working on both flash Bots and now one balance yeah it's a it's a great question I think it's a missing piece

that a lot of people that are working on on um on chain abstraction didn't didn't have which was the meev piece um they didn't realize that everything about chain abstraction is about meev at the end of the day um and so a lot of the designs that we saw earlier on were just not incentive compatible with the idea of a permissionless uh sort of execution setting and so um to your question like how much did it impact it it impacts everything um every single mechanism designed that that can be proposed in this space has to have this cross chain me uh thing factored in otherwise it just won't work um and you know it will work if you then make it like permissioned and like codal or whatever

right but like those aren't the systems that that we're looking to design here um and so yeah it's it's fundamental you know I'd have to I'd have to spend some time thinking about like the specific things but like even just the orderflow trama right like that's an meev concept it's it it it's it's not like a computer science concept right and so um it's just all all these small useful uh mental models that help design better systems yeah I'm still trying to figure out why I have to broadcast my uh $7 Starbucks transaction to the entire Global men pool when we could just be on local consensus and have a much better system but I think that's a conversation for a different day as well yeah yeah yeah that that is a long Rabbit Hole to

go into we built these systems where the entire global population needs to have their eye on every transaction which just doesn't make much sense exactly yeah but the account Centric worldview no longer requires that you know which is sort of also my contribution there it's like part of the observation of the me problem is it comes a lot from this thing that you actually stated if we don't have the entire world looking at what everyone else is doing you actually have a lot less of me issue and the way to get there there is to have like individuals be able to use their own accounts to make commitments to other individuals as opposed to rely on the global view of the world to make commitments um so it all wraps together yeah yeah it'd be interesting

to to figure out what like some more local consensus designs would look like at the at the blockchain level and at the validator level and kind of putting that together yeah my my hope is that every single validator has its own rollup every single account is its own on rollup and then everything is cross chain messaging between rollups wow that sounds like a lot of work man that sounds like a lot of rollups it's a lot of rollups get ready well uh it was an absolute pleasure uh hosting you on the rollup today Stefan thanks for coming yeah the Roll Up is the roll up as well when are we gonna launch our own Chain man amazing good to be here yeah thanks

for coming on man cheers