Building The Future of Proof: Ismael & Bo

Transcript

sending a packet in the cloud versus sending a transaction across Roll-Ups using a production in our protocol today we're looking at 357 million times more expensive if I'm a web two Builder and I look at that cost I will be like I'm not going to build with this technology when you combine efficient interop when you combine computer data exogenous data AI agents you can reach these like cyppher Punk applications that you can actually look at and go oh wow that wasn't possible without crypto [Music] I'm here with Bo of polymer and he smell

of L um thanks for joining me guys thanks for I mean thanks for inviting me in this pretty awesome studio uh this is great I mean I I've been lugging around podcast gear all week and this is the way to do it so I mean you are committed you are a professional podcaster obviously not cuz I mean like this setup is uh is next level so but uh I wanted to talk to you guys because there's been tremendous progress on the leonide um with the uh the Z ZK co-processing and also polymer just made a pretty significant amount announcement this week huge huge huge huge it's a huge announcement

big big computer small proofs um and um and also you guys are working together so um I'm basically I'm going to sit here and ask you questions and you guys are going to answer and I'm going to nod and pretend to understand everything you guys are saying and hopefully you know the people watching this will also learn a little bit and um uh expand their expand their minds so yeah maybe starting with you SM um what's uh what's the latest that L yeah yeah so at lrange we have earlier this year shipped our decentralized prover Network the first version of it into production on top of aen layer run by 85 institutional operators with people like

coinbase Kraken P2P okx and we've been accelerating on integrating our ZK co-processor which sits on top of our approver network with a lot of our our partners and customers as well as expanding the types of proofs we generate on our Network to be able to better deliver this kind of universal ver if iability across crypto and so B and polymer are a team that we've known for quite a while and have had a very good relationship with and they're one of the groups that were the most bullish on in the space um and so very excited to be here very excited to talk a little bit more about lrange how we work with polymer and kind of how we see the internet of verifiability evolving well internet of verifiability yeah it's a step up that

is I love it so like what are the some of the crypto use cases maybe are like obvious to a lot of us but um and you know I'd love for you to talk a little bit about those but outside of crypto what does this enable if you know we expand out and sort of think more broadly about the types of use cases that you know we could use we could um enable with uh with lr's infrastructure yeah so several years ago when I was in San Francisco and I was starting the gange and I tell the story all the time someone came to me and they said that in two years every app would be a cross chain app and at the time I was I was a little taken aback by the statement this

was before the the rollup vision of ethereum had really materialized and the idea of like an app on polka dot like bridging to a dexon near was like a little kind of crazy to me but I sat there and I watched it evolve and now where I sit I can't see a single def app that doesn't take the wrapped asset and I can't see a single real def app on a rollup that doesn't deploy another rollups like fundamentally that the statement that was made was so precedent and so directionally what I like to say is we're moving for every app in the world and web 3 and web two to be a verifiable app one where the core functions are proven all the way from

how exogenous data is loaded on chain with ZK TLS to how execution is extended with ZK co-processors to how block space is proven with with you know ZK rollups and ZK execution environments all the way to interop and how you prove State between chains with you know with these these kind of interoperability connectivity tissue like polymer and so I guess to to to to kind of bring that back into very concrete terms whenever you go to a site on the internet whenever you see a piece of news whenever you interact with an AI model I see a proof being attached to that yeah in the future yeah the the ZK TLS stuff is one that I I find very interesting I like um I

remember talking with on epicenter this Turtle protocol I don't know if you guys not super familiar okay so I mean they were sort of like uh innovating with with this ZK TLS stuff a couple years ago and and now there's like more teams building on top of this like can you just maybe you know for the audience like expand on what that means exactly because I think it's such an underrated use case yeah ZK TLS is something that I'm I'm I'm fundamentally excited about opacity is a team I'm very bullish on there's others obviously right opacity is the one I I've recently heard about that yeah they're fantastic um I I think very highly of them there's others that that you know we also we also think highly of you know Pluto reclaimed chain link has their Deco product um but in

general the the the basic theme is there is certain private offchain data data and you want that data to have some property of it proven on chain you want to prove your credits score is greater than 750 without disclosing it on chain you want an application to be able to consume a property of your data without the actual data ever being disclosed and you want to do this so that you can build more intelligent onchain systems that are secure that are data private and that are userfriendly and that's what ZK TLS gets to and as you start loading more exogenous data on chain you need better tooling over proving computation over that data because the more data you have the more expensive it

is and let's face it solidity is not the right language generally to write data heavy computation and then you need to be able to move these commitments to this offchain data between chains and so you create this new landscape of what it is to build in crypto as these applications can compose with exogeneous web 2 Data sources Think Credit markets think ride sharing apps think any type of thing you'd want to decentralize that we've been hearing for years people would build now it's possible yeah and I think the the simplest use case for me and maybe for people to wrap their heads around zls is you know every time you uh you need to provide some form of

identity verification kyc right you need to uh download like The PDF of your bank statements and send it to some other financial institution it's like this really painful process which actually provides very little actual verifiable data because it's some P PDF that anybody could uh could Forge um and it it just points to the uselessness of of kyc but uh but but here at least what what you could do with ZK TLS is say okay I have here's a proof that this like HTML that was downloaded or like this PDF came from my bank and this is the information that they provide now you may or may not trust the bank I mean as a third party financial institution you may or may not trust that bank but assuming you do or assuming that third

party institution does then they could read that proof read that signature and and know that that information came from there without actually having perhaps access to the information itself um and that's kind of like for me such a a lwh hanging fruit use case that um someone should be building right it is and I think there are teams doing that now great I think I think what the space has kind of shifted towards is this idea that infrastructure by itself isn't something that people want to just buy endless exposure to a tokens what people want is apps that they use an infrastructure that generates real revenue from real usage and a lot of the great work being done by teams like lrange a lot of the ZK TS teams and

teams like polymer are really kind of getting to that end of a new web three experience for users with new types of apps that are possible yeah I have a if you like I feel like if we zoom out a little bit let's zoom out kind of let's zoom out get get a get a world view of of of what's going on right now I think it's really interesting you know you guys are talking about zls it feels like the certificate issuers themselves we're talking about roots of trust MH and you have roots of trust for the internet whether the trust is rooted in a central entity like a bank whether the root of trust is rooted in the world computer ethereum um and as you go down the line you can imagine that the root

certificate issuer and there's a few on the internet can be related to ethereum where ethereum can be the root of trust for all of its layer 2os and layer 3es yeah and then you can kind of imagine if you extend this even further that uh there's like this addressable space of centralized applications rooted in trust and centralized entities and then you have this um root of the centralized root of trust in ethereum and this decentralized chain IP space for all the l2s and l3s that could exist and you see this like mirror image of itself what it was and and what it will be like right but but that I mean in in this in this Mirror Image this decentralized mirror image that we don't have all the issues

with the current certificate model and and and roots of trust exactly so in essence the internet is an internet of trust and what we're building is an internet of verifiability yes where you can verify the authenticity of information and the authenticity of data yes yes instead of just trusting yeah so these are like kind of like two mirror worlds where I I don't I don't necessarily think that the other is is going to completely go away but I feel like the two will start to become like very very much intertwined and we're kind of seeing that happen now it's kind of like when you see like two universes like start to merge and it's like reality starts to blend and then when you blend the reality you can make uh product Magic on top I love that and so effectively ZK TLS is the way you bridge

between that internet of trusted authorities and that internet of decentralization but it's sort of a it's it's a a half step right because I mean the the issue remains with TLS and um certificates generally and I'm I'm going to butcher this but uh maybe you guys can can explain it better than I can but that that because there are so many certificate issuers and because these certificate issuers the root certificate issuers issue certificates to all these other entities that trust has been eroded through uh malicious uh or untrustable untrustworthy certificate issuers uh that can essentially like Forge for certificates um yeah so me just expanding on that so we understand like what that actually means and what

the vulnerabilities are so SE I feel like you're trying to say that or you're implying that you think that the uh centralized issuers will eventually get replaced by ethereum and then perhaps the bank's roote of trust at that point now is tied to that of ethereum where the bank is now like an L3 in terms of trust whether they run a centralized you know L3 or not that's you know up to them and then they're represented on this decentralized web through a verifiable view you into it whatever they want to expose some of it's going to be uh via zero knowledge because they don't want to publicly expose you know like your your bank account information yeah um and some of it's going to be public information um via their public API I I love this point

because the idea of issuing a digital identity that is not owned by you but is but is but you are identified by is an incredibly risky proposition we see this with social handles we see this with Discord handles effectively you see telegram accounts so much of your identity is tied to these these digital accounts you have that are your username with how people recognize you and connect with you and the moment one of those is taken or compromised you can lose a massive amount of your personal reputation and you aren't in fact the owner you aren't in fact the custodian of these things except if they're on chain and an example of this would be I mean if you guys are familiar with a very common Discord vulnerability if you have a vanity URL in your Discord and

your boosts expire below a level you the thing and so all of a sudden someone takes you know Discord SLP polymer because you're on vacation one week it's it's a incredibly risky uh situation to be in and social accounts are the same thing you see telegram hacks and nobody can ever recover them like domains not being renewed exactly it's all of this while you're on vacation it's all of this stuff and and this is kind of the the idea of of verifiability self- custody and Trust from a decentralized system this is interesting this example sort of extends also I think the lending uh because the same thing can happen right you could be on vacation and get liquidated but if you had some sort of a

credit rating that like in you know a trustworthy rating uh trustworthiness rating that ensures that you know this address is going to be like um you know has a certain credit rating and and is going to be good on their debt U then you maybe we can sort of that Mak sense go away like um uh get from this this over collateralized kind of lending model and more towards like a credit model yeah yeah you could even integrate the two like if you relate on payments the payments are reported to the credit Authority yeah and they would treat those reports as marks on your credit and then that will go down which you know is is is another form of uh liquidity because you you're able to use

that rating as leverage absolutely exactly and I mean one of the things I I find really exciting just once thing can take a step back is when I got the crypto there were all these like Cipher Punk ideas of what we could build there was you know onchain credit there was all these ideas of the future substrates for human communication would be blockchains and then what we ended up with was a bunch of basic Financial Primitives like under over collateralized lending and and and and liquidity and uh constant product dexes and like ponies and then we had like three years of this and then we had a bunch of infra and this idea that you know we're we're infas useless you know we built too much infro what are we

going to do now we still just have Pawn these indexes but now I think we're getting to a point where is like real interesting things being build built because when you combine this you can get to something that's net new when you combine efficient interrup when you combine computer data exogenous data AI agents you can reach these like Cipher Punk applications that you can actually look at and go oh wow that wasn't possible without crypto yeah and um I I don't know if you guys were at the uh rejected event yesterday but Jim from Catalyst gave a talk basically on on on on this very kind of topic and and um what was interesting is just sort of you know I think a lot of us came into

crypto with these Cipher Punk ideas and wanting to overthrow the financial system and wanting Alternatives that are more fair um and and and don't profit incumbents and uh and his argument was that we've kind of lost the plot and like the the mem Corin direction is this very nihilistic uh Direction when there is a actually like virtuous Direction which is to double down on the cipher Punk uh on the on the on the The Primitives of of crypto of Bitcoin yeah and which like ZK absolutely uh aligns with it does uh fundamentally like it it is it is a technology that enables sovereignty over one's data and I like that's one of the

reasons why I came in the space well what I love about ZK and this is like my my Cipher Punk take about lrange is it allows you to build a expressive Unstoppable application when I was first getting into crypto there was this the term an Unstoppable application this idea that you could deploy a smart contract that does something and nobody could stop it you could be in a in a country that that has Capital controls that stop you from accessing anything besides their their Fiat that has a 50% annual inflation all your savings could be eroded you could have zero access to a store of value and you could buy

ethereum and you could get real Market exposure to it and you could put it into a productive yield bearing vehicle and the the limitation was what you could build on chain what ZK lets you do is to remove that limitation you can have a single person generating a proof for an incredible complex application and as long as one person can generate the proof of the state transition or the proof of the application function it can verify on chain and you can do it you can have dexes you can have complicated Financial systems that are verified on chain you can have a satellite generating the proof no one else in the world could do it possibly and there you go the system works still one person that's generic that proof for AI for complex Financial Primitives but I mean

one thing I'd love to to to kind of touch on here because I've been talking a lot about lrange and and ZK is this idea of polymer connecting the world computer yeah um so yeah tell us about the announcement you made yesterday and what it means for interruptibility I mean you guys have been working on inability solutions for a really long time uh I think we first met in like 2022 sure uh so it's been a long time coming but you know polymer is is finally live and I think it's really exciting so yeah you know thanks for having me here to to to chat a little bit more about this um we changed how we saw the world I think

during this process I think similar to ishmail it wasn't clear when we started polymer that rollups would be the future um it's very clear now and you know during that transition we started to focus on the question of what is it going to take to bring more of the world on chain um It's A Hard problem to solve I think when you really start to dig into the problem you'll start to see that that we will have rollups it won't be a thousand it won't be 10,000 I don't even think it's going to be 100,000 I think it's going be Millions perhaps even billions of Roll-Ups some small some big some ZK some optimistic different types of rollups and when you have all this you all have a a lot of fragmentation and coming from the cosmos I'm quite uh familiar with fragmentation both at the social layer uh and at the

from a technical perspective oh yeah but the one thing that held the cosmos together was IBC the one thing that people could actually agree socially and technically socially socially and technically they couldn't agree on anything else like they're always arguing if you ever follow Cosmos folks you see they're always arguing about something um which is natural right like they care a lot about sovereignty when you have sovereignty you're just not going to agree on certain things exactly so to me like IBC is kind of like English like you it's something that can be shared something that people you know won't necessarily have need to fight over and it's essentially a common layer in common good for all to uh I guess to connect upon but the one problem that we realize is the major blocker to IBC being effective in uh the rooll of

ecosystem was this concept of ethereum finality uh and we worked on this RP called RP 7789 that allows uh rollups to essentially be able to communicate subf finality safely we established a few different safety inv variants won't go over that in the pods somewhat technical um but breaking the finality barrier is kind of like breaking sound barrier um once you break the sound barrier you can go mock one mock two mock three mock four but before that it was kind of like this like impossible thing like you would tell people like oh like I I can communicate fast on ethereum they're like but what about reworks what about ethereum finality obviously I think ethereum is going to work on single sna we're going to eventually get there um but that was kind of like the the elephant in the

room and you know as we made this journey we also worked with Partners like L Grange to increase the verifiability of this system uh because on one hand you can go very fast but you have to trust to Secret sper on the other hand if you want to go a little bit slower you can trust L grange's State commune solution which adds cryptoeconomic security this acts as like a a validator set this very common in the cosmos so this is like the cosmos model of interoperability you have validator sets for each chain they're able to communicate and communicate effectively in a trustworthy manner so how did you solve finality can you get into that oh you want me to go over like the technical details or yeah let's dive in why don't you blow our brains a little bit I'm I'm I'm going to uh take

a not super technical angle take us down the road of finality let's let's use let's use time travel and in like interdimensional Time interdimensional time travel so multiple Dimensions plus time you lost me at time travel so you have these two story elements that are like commonly used you seen the Marvel films right like time variance Authority right you can both travel back and forth in time but also both cross Dimensions like Spider-Man um so I need to watch more Marvel movies down the just watch a few Marvel movies it it'll make a lot of sense um so because of reorgs we try to establish a few safety inv variants with it with using this like you know time

travel concept using this interdimensional uh concept as a basis for intuitively understanding this uh if you're in the future you can't communicate with the past yeah like I can't just call up my past self like I'd actually have to like travel back in time hop in a time machine go back in time like hey man you should really focus on learning ZK or um but I think in uh the other thing that we also do is that you also can't communicate across different histories so imagine that every ethereum Fork is an alternate Dimension and if I'm in one dimension and you're in another dimension we can't communicate with one another unless we travel across these Dimensions uh and the third thing that

we do is we establish a few safety inv variants that we conf um convert into what we call a contingency diagram or contingency dag of all of the transactions that have been committed across rollups and we link the states of every one of these rollups together so to link the state of two Roll-Ups we have to say one we're on the same we're in the same Dimension like we we can contact each other two we're in the same time mean that I have to be able to call you if I can't call you on my cell phone like there there's some are like like time yeah g temporal Gap or there's like a dimensional Gap um and you know once we establish these links we say that if we need to travel Dimensions or if

there's a reorg we reorg together M it's all or nothing I love that and depending on whatever view of ethereum actually gets finalized and we can think of this as like the sacred timeline that when all these alternate Dimensions alternate realities get pruned that the property that we ensure is that these transactions that were committed cross rollup either get committed or not basically if we're on the canonical timeline all these transactions get automically committed if we're on an alternate timeline we've already traveled Dimensions all these transactions now get reverted so you have this really nice adicity property interesting I love that you you mentioned earlier something you said that like um when you came into crypto that there was this assumption that we'd

have cross chain apps and everything right and I think you know two or three years ago that was kind of the Assumption M that hasn't really played out a lot of cross chain transfers are just token transfers there's no like this this idea that we'd have cross chain applications commanding liquidity across different like State machines it hasn't really materialized you know how does polymer enable this this future that we've been envisioning for a long time and you know hasn't really materialized my perspective on the reason why it hasn't materialized is it's very difficult to build something competitive in an existing app category if you think about existing Cate ories that are highly highly competitive you're talking about uh the latency of

the application costing the application perhaps millions billions of dollars in Lost Revenue so if you look at an Amazon they they conducted a study probably like a decade and a half ago and at the time every 100 milliseconds of latency in their app uh decreased the revenue by 1% this translates to I think 50 4040 to $50 million then now it would be $5 billion every 100 milliseconds and the thinking there is if I'm going to build in in a competitive category social media e-commerce can I build in this category with a with a huge handicap if I shoot myself in the foot and I try to run a race how fast am I going to run and I think if we take a step back and coming me myself coming from a web 2 background

if I were to you know want to take technology seriously I need to know that it can perform when we did uh due diligence at Uber we would look at a system we would say how much is is this going to cost us how is it going to perform now how is this system going to how much is the system going to cost us and perform in 10 years time when our scale is 100x where we are today and I think the answer to that question today is in pretty and when we look at the cost of uh compute onchain we see that compute has come down a little bit over the years as we have layer 2os layer 3es even uh but it still costs a lot it's like I think roughly we uh took a look at a single transfer transaction on an

L2 and we compared that to a single right to an AWS uh database yeah we're we're at about 30,000 times more expensive for compute but that's come down a lot that's come down a lot over the years like this is already orders a magnitude less than it was before I I expect this trend to continue there's a lot of high performance rollups coming up uh and then this trend should continue also like you know bringing the computer off chain making it verifiable this this all these Trends will make the uh computer a little bit cheaper uh for these apps but the problem is that the cross rollup space the cross block space costs are incredible that has not come down in the last few years when we looked at that cost we looked at we realized that sending a packet in the cloud versus sending a transaction

across Roll-Ups using a production in our protocol today we're looking at 357 million times more expensive so wow wow that Gap that's a Chasm that that's if I'm if I'm a web two Builder and I look at that cost I will be like I'm not going to build with this technology this does not make sense if if I have an app it's already you know tens of thousand times more expensive to build and when it comes time to scale this app am I going to pay hundreds of millions of times more cost on on on me I'm not going to be able to make a profit so I think for Builders to take us seriously we need to invest in both us scaling the L1 scaling at the L2 level scaling at the L3 level scaling with ZK scaling cross uh roll up inter off scaling all

these things and get to a place where those gaps are are much closer than they are today can we get there though without compromising on you know the cipher Punk uh decentralization uh ideas and Primitives that we were discussing earlier I I believe we can and I believe we can because it's very much a Choose Your Own Adventure game with cross chain on polymer there's a there is a spectrum of security that an application can opt into ranging from zero knowledge proofs of of you know the the state committees we talked about on the gr we can talk about the the canonical finality of of of rollups writing to L1 their state roots and then we can talk all the way

to kind of sequence or aest stations and you're able to to select the level of security that your application wants based on your your cost preferences and systems that are complex and Li to express trade-offs between security and cost Embrace a cipher Punk ethos while still allowing you to operate within kind of your own sensitivity to obviously the amount you want to spend this in the packet yeah I like how ish is describing our product sweet for us I I have a good background in it because we we've worked with you guys for a while um so yeah how are you guys working together I mean so we use Lan's State Community

product the S Community problem is what I would like to describe as a like client for optimistic Roll-Ups I don't necessarily consider uh a sequencer level guarantee the same as a like line it's not equivalent a sequency level guarantee is more like a guarantee from a single proposer um a like client guarantee is a guarantee from like a like a a set a set of validators similar to that of like a cosmos L1 MH and you get cryptoeconomic security at that level and if you want to extend this further as described you can get to like roll up a native Bridge which is you're going to wait a lot longer and I think the gr sits nicely in the Middle where you can get very good security at medium latency where perhaps for an application

if you want if the tradeoffs are um if you're sending value maybe if you if you're sending less than $100 maybe the sequence are pre confidence okay if you're sending between $100,000 and $100,000 maybe you want to use uh the gr State committee and maybe if you're sending like a massive transaction like tens of millions of dollars maybe you use the world native Rich there's like a a spectrum here so the the announcement you made is um yeah so currently it's enabling message passing between optimism and bass yes yes two chains to start and we'll be adding more soon but it's message passing so you there isn't a excuse me there there isn't yet a token Bridge uh that's up for for you know Builders to to build that uh you're

providing the underlying infrastructure for people to come and and build interoperability between rollups yes uh and that and that's intentional you know we we've seen a lot of interoperability protocols come to Market and build the defi on top of their uh inter protocol later zero build start yeah you have all these different uh protocols that are kind of essentially funded by the core team and that uh kind of deviates from their focus on the interop itself and we felt like it was our job to focus on interop uh we don't want to dictate terms we don't want to create an of standard and force people to use this standard we want to say we want to support Open Standards yeah whatever token standards get adopted

whether that's xc20 whether that's the new ERC that's proposed by uh Unis Swap and across want to support these token standards ics2 and the cosmos want to support these standards as a as a pure infr layer right I think that's what um the goal of a messaging protocol should be and so you you guys have like focused a lot on on IBC in the past or at least that was really part of the kind of go to market and and Narrative of polymer is that still part of uh the way you're building these inability uh Primitives yeah so we support uh IBC other the gate we have a virtual IBC protocol um now I guess because of IBC Ure that's considered IBC classic and now there's uh IBC which is IBC V2 which will also

support that's a messaging standard yeah what we're talking about right now are verification layer Primitives right and on top of these verification layer Primitives you can pretty much build any or layer on any type of messaging standard uh meaning that if there are standards that emerge in the ethereum ecosystem we'll also be able to support those as well although we will be pushing IBC but there's a there's a big in assumptions between IBC and a lot of these other messaging standards IBC is the only messaging standard that assumes that a message may or may not be received every other messaging protocol that we've looked at messaging center that we've looked at assumes that the message will be received are people wrong to make that

assumption or are protocols wrong to make that assumption I think it's fine to make that assumption if you're the one operating the protocol and you're going to you will you will guarantee that everything gets sent because if you don't get guarantee that everything gets sent the user gets their fund stuck yeah indefinitely yeah if you do a token transfer in the the destination transaction number makx it there it's your funds are locked forever I would actually say a different thing I actually am not sure if it's okay to assume that a message will received no I'm being serious when you're sending a packet of data over over the web you would have retry logic try catch logic all of this Primitives in web 2 uh Communication System communication I mean this is how IBC was built like IBC has the message it comes exactly and one

thing I really like about that that Bo has been saying I just want to make sure we touch on this before we move past it the ethos of IBC as this credibly neutral standard is clearly core to how polymer has treated building an interoperability protocol in so far as there's not a canonical defi app that's deployed on top of it that they have vertically integrated and have removed the opportunity for competitive teams to build right and so it means that if you want to build a token Bridge you can do so on polymer if you want to build you know a DEX you can do so on polymer the same way you can do this on IBC there there's no Corporation of IBC owning another business on top of it that's dog footed and remov the competitive

Dynamics around around it being a shared standard yeah we're not King making any uh cross chain app yeah so so we get so I get the straight so um polymer provides the Primitive that enables interoperability between chains people can use IBC I mean they can Implement IBC on this primitive if they so wish to enable token transfers implemented oh you have it implemented already it's implemented all right so like if you want to do token transfers token transfers between Bas and optimism now you can use IBC to do that yes okay that's cool I mean this is effectively the first implementation of IBC across EVMS yes yes oh also the hell yeah um under the hood it this this might sound kind of funny to people uh

technically with the first Cosmos roll up on ethereum to be on Main wow or just Cosmos rollup in general I don't think there's any I don't know of any other Cosmos rollups yet yet w wow I love that's cool I love this yeah so Cosmos is still very much like in our DNA I love this awesome guys uh this has been really great um I I'm have to listen to this again to make sure I capture all of the knowledge that was uh uh that came out of this podcast but um yeah thanks and enjoy the rest of your week at Devcon thank you so much thanks up cheers [Music]