Building A Decentralized Blackrock | Index Coop (SotN 7/27)

Transcript

hey guys welcome to another episode of state of the nation this is the episode where we do a deep dive on the topic of the week we apply it to the lessons we learn in the podcast and on the newsletter david i'm super excited about this episode we've wanted to get the folks from index co-op on for a while now we have the team we're talking about a new product release we're talking about all the growth and success they've had since late 2020 we're talking about building a decentralized black rock trillions of dollars in asset capacity here and this movement with with decentralized indexed uh funds index products is just getting started so david i'm super excited to dig into today's topic

and today's topic of indices is such a timely one because this is coming after two weeks after the bed index from the bankless dow and index co-op which i think is the best crypto index of all time i have opinions about this and maybe but maybe that's something that we should talk about in the actual show and crypto indices or indices in general i think is something that is really really powerful specifically in d5 simply because how um how easy it is just to compose tokens into an index index once you have tokens on ethereum once you have tokens as erc20 tokens making a smart contract to put them into an index is really powerful and so there's so much to talk about there and i'm really excited to get into that topic of conversation with

the index co-op team yeah dude i remember when we first uncovered this topic on the bankless newsletter it was like like 2019 and token sets was just coming out and i think the article we wrote in bank list was something like um in the future money robots are going to be the ones managing your money right and look how far we've come now i think uh index co-op has over 200 million in assets under management they had like close to 400 500 million earlier this year and uh i i think the dream is really uh starting to to come true and if like you talk to any of your friends in the space who are outside crypto and they're investing they're likely doing their traditional their old fi investing through some sort of an index fund you know a vanguard fund an etf of some sort

something that is pegged to the s p 500 or some other stock market index indices uh they're just really simple easy products to use in traditional finance and uh they're even better more composable more interesting more permissionless more uh interactive in e5 so that's why this space is super exciting well david we're going to get into that in a minute but we should talk about what is new first uh you were at cc last week we just put out a a post about the eat cc experience and an epic uh an epic podcast man i listened to that on sunday it was so cool it just like cured my fomo um thanks for being there what what are the

highlights from that uh podcast yeah the highlights were that there is so much new surface area to build in d5 these days that people are really overwhelmed with what can be built a lot of the projects and presentations and talks given at ecc are not talking about theoretical first new products of ethereum but a lot of projects and products that are the next iteration or the next evolution of something that we've already talked about so that was a common theme another common theme was everyone was just really stoked to be in person again and this is something i wrote in the post and not included actually in the in the podcast so definitely read both read the post from the market monday on bank list and also listen to the podcast but everyone was really stoked that we are now back in the real world once again as an industry

and it's i think there's something to say about you know we had 15 months where no crypto events happened and then each cc happened and we are also now starting to change the real world at least that was one of my takeaways everyone is really excited to see mainstream adoption but also see this internet native industry actually start to manifest itself in the real world so definitely don't miss that episode there's interviews from vitalik buterin stanley staney from ave kane uh cooper turley so many fantastic interviews all packed into a two-hour episode so if you had fomo about ecc make sure you listen to that podcast that's step one is cure your fomo listen to that podcast i think step two is to go sign up for this chain link smart con that is a defy conference

put on by chain link every year this is a virtual conference the best thing about this in addition to the 200 plus d5 speakers and thought leaders that are attending the builders that are attending this conference is that it's absolutely free free education free investing on d5 attended last year was fantastic david you and i are going to be doing a panel this year on eip1559 this will be hopefully right after it launches so we'll have some cool updates things to share with the community i'm excited about everyone who's going to be there i'm excited about the topics automated market makers we're going to talk about oracle's we're going to talk about layer 2.

it's really just a fantastic defy education um event so if you missed ecc do not miss this next event august 5th through the 7th there will be a link in your show notes where you can go sign up for that so get on it um man let me ask you the question i ask at the beginning of these episodes every week david it's that time i hope you're ready what is the state of the nation this week my friend the state of the nation is we are getting in bed we are getting in bed with index co-op and with bankless dow the bet index got released last week uh bitcoin ether dpi while it looks like it has three tokens in it it actually has 16 because dpi also has tokens inside of it uh and i think that it is the best crypto indices that i think perhaps

could be for a really long time at least at least a really long time i'm not going to say forever but like there's very compelling reasons as to why bitcoin ether and dpi are the best crypto indices for you for your friends for your family uh and now it's live uh and so that's definitely going to be a topic of conversation in today's show with the index co-op boys um but that is the state of the nation getting into bed you know my favorite thing about this uh the bed index david is it's so damn memeable you see that this is just go to bed it happens to be a bed right right behind me as well yeah yeah there's a bed behind you and there's like infinite possibilities getting to bed uh there's infinite possibilities with this meme so i think this is going to be

fun for the community to dig into in the weeks and months to come all right guys we are going to be back in just a moment with the folks from index co-op talking about everything that they are building everything on the horizon but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible when you shop for plane tickets you probably use kayak expedia or google to compare ticket prices so why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto when you make your trades you want to make sure that you're getting the best possible price on your trade and that you aren't paying high gas costs that you could have otherwise avoided that's why you should be using matcha matcha routes your orders across all the various defy exchanges on ethereum polygon binance smart chain and gives you the best possible prices

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hey guys welcome back to bank list we are here with the folks from index co-op this is a small portion of their team actually and um because their team is is is vast it's decentralized and we're really excited to uh to talk about index co-op today index co-op is building the next gen of index investments doing it in d5 the old finance world that's traditional finance has over six trillion in assets inside of indexes but in d5 crypto native indexes are just getting started so index co-op is really a community-led decentralized permissionless organization their goal is to create maintain and drive the adoption of crypto index products as david said in

the intro last week bankless dow and index co-op released their newest product which is called the bed index this is a compilation of one-third bitcoin one-third ether and one-third d5 we're super excited about that we're going to talk about that um but first we're going to talk about all about crypto indexes why they're important uh and get into that subject matter so let me introduce our guests we have three of them with jd cook is on the analytics team of index co-op we have simon judd business development lead and we have dark forest capital he is a metaverse index methodologist guys thanks so much for joining us on bankless it is fantastic to have you thank you for having us we've been

looking forward to this for weeks oh my gosh hey i gotta ask before we dig in um you know the bed index wasn't the the only recently launched index product that hit crypto media waves i just learned of a crypto index product that goldman sachs is bringing to market this is a defy index i don't know if you guys saw this um did you catch this news and see what's inside of this thing yeah i mean i was squinting pretty hard trying to find defy yeah so it it's it's absolutely crazy uh for those of you not familiar this is um this is a tweet i put out yesterday but um crypto twitter world has been a buzz about goldman sachs releasing a d5 index

and they're you know going through the registration process in the sec and inside of this index the the first company listed the largest um portion is nokia the second is facebook the third is alphabet all of these are securities all of these are equities none of these are defy assets or even close to d5 assets i mean not even gbtc yeah not even gbtc uh and this is what a uh a bank is is calling a d5 index um i know you guys know better i know you guys are are putting together some crypto native indexes but why don't we start jd could you tell us a bit about indexes in general like why are index products important financial

products uh for everybody and why are they so useful in crypto yeah i think um just in general this the simplest way is index products take away a lot of the complexity in investing right there's especially in crypto where we're so early in the space and a lot of people that enter the space are unsure where to invest what's going to be the best returns so so an index product is a single asset that really gives you exposure to a multitude of assets within a given sector or strategy that way you don't have to worry about picking winners um you basically get to ride the momentum of the youtube center as a whole

can i add one thing that this is really key to the index co-op narrative in our story so when index funds were introduced in the late 60s and early 70s they enabled millions and millions of families globally to enter the middle class in a way that simply wasn't possible before that um it allowed people to avoid some of the volatility they allowed people to invest in a risk in a more risk-free way and you know what we are trying to do at index co-op is we are trying to bring that same vision to crypto investing to allow millions and millions of families to very safely enter investing in this space um through passive investing and passive management

that's super cool uh forest do you want to add anything to that um no i think those guys have covered it really i think the the fact that we're trying to make or or indexes make investing easier and simpler i mean that you don't have to pick winners you don't have to be deeply deeply knowledgeable i think that's why sort of the index co-op was formed and why it's so important that we you know we can enable people to have access to financial products without that expertise needed so dark force let's stick with you i index co-op has grown to be about 200 million in assets that that is as we're recording and it was was higher a couple months ago crypto prices were up but

that's phenomenal growth right for like just getting started the end of 2020 i think is is kind of when you guys got started um can you tell us the story dark forest about uh index co-op so how did it come to be what's the genesis story here yeah so our flagship product was launched um back in september i believe in 2020 but at the time it was just dpi out on the market um and launched between set and and d5 pulse and the index co-op was actually created at the start of october and the idea was to form a community around the idea of like growing integrating and like um enabling these products to spread basically

so yeah we have all sort of formed around this idea like i say of making crypto investing simpler and we use the term like becoming the the black rock of crypto as well and i think that kind of touches on the inspiration of it um and where it came from really um simon i'm curious uh about this question like so what is the difference between index co-op and uh set token the set token protocol because i understand that index co-op is using some components of the set token protocol itself um how are you guys related how are you different where where does the mission uh what where does one

organization's mission start and the the others kind of uh you know take take things up yeah absolutely so you know i think we're incredibly fortunate to have token sets felix fang alex song and their incredible team as really really close partners in the journey as we as we've launched this dao um the way i think of it is it's really like a tripod so token sets is the baseline technology technological infrastructure that we were built upon um the methodologists such as d5 pulse and luckily now bank list are really the data providers that provide us the data and they're also the distribution platform and then alongside that index co-op like we're really the glue that

holds all that together whether that is supporting those products with go-to-market with marketing with exchange listings um with all the d5 expertise that we bring as a community and you know it is really a tripod and all three lags that tripod make this just incredibly compelling product one of the questions i have for for index co-op is that you guys don't seem to have any of your own products you guys don't build your own products yourself you seem to uh tap into uh for example d5 pulse to to do the dpi into bankless dow to do the bankless bet index talk about the decision to uh outsource the methodology rather than make that in-house oh uh let's uh let's go to doc forest

first yeah i was keen to jump in here because we we actually do so we have the metaverse index which is a community launched product um the first of its kind which i'm a methodologist for and so is verto who unfortunately couldn't make it onto the call today um so yeah we we do and we've also obviously partnered with these like credible external partners to try and launch products um but the metaverse index like if i can talk a little bit about how that came about um the idea actually went out in october like when at launch um i got quite excited thought this was a great opportunity to to get involved in d5 and so i put the idea out onto the forum and it actually took quite a few

months of um pushing and like understanding how the the index cart was forming before that actually became something that was then went through the product onboarding pipeline as as you guys have experienced recently with the bed index um so yeah we do have it and me and verto kind of spun that up in a way where we can still be involved with the index co-op so we're managing this product on on the side but what we didn't want to do is step away from the index co-op itself and not be able to still like contribute and participate in in the success of the dow so we're what's called community methodologist which means that we stick around stick our noses into stuff and try and help the community continue to move forward

so for for people who aren't familiar with like index co-op products i wonder if it makes sense to just give a high level of what the existing products you have are and uh you know what people can do with them so i'm showing right now the index co-op like home page and i see i think i see five products listed here so one is called the dpi which we've made reference to before another is called e2x fli there's the the metaverse index that dark forest was just talking about we've got a bitcoin 2x fli then we've got the bed index um can you talk about what these products are aimed at maybe maybe simon could you just give us like the tldr for each of these products like why

someone would want to hold them and and what they do for an investor looking for exposure uh into uh into this asset class yeah absolutely so the d5 pulse index like i would really think of it as the s p 500 of d5 so it is really the large cap d5 protocols um your abe's your uni swaps your makers of the world um and this like this when we talk to community members um you know the thing they tell us is like the first thing they do after they move their ears to their metamask wallet off their centralized exchange is they buy dpi um because it really is the simplest way to gain exposure to what is at the end of the day a very very complex sector um ryan if you want to scroll up we can

do yeah i'm actually before we do another one i'm curious as to what it takes to actually get into the dpi so you i know um obviously this is arranged by it's market cap weighted uh in some way but there is also some entrance criteria right um for being accepted and you got the methodology actually outlines what this is i wonder if you could just give a quick brief of how an asset comes into the dpi absolutely so um you know it has to be a product or a protocol that's been operational on mainnet for over six months i'm just now based on liquidity that each protocol needs um and then you know finally there's

various audits that d5 pulse ensures that each protocol has gone through and when taken together alongside the really the market cap of how everything breaks down um that's really what builds methodology on their end so what's uh how does uh dpi become governed right because there are decisions that need to be made who and who it is actually governing over uh dpi um uh same question to you simon yes so that's really the beauty of it right so when you think of this kind of tripod that we have of the technology providers um the go-to market the technology company which is index co-op and then the methodologist each has its own role to play here and when you think

about an index product you don't necessarily want the methodology to be something that's voted on every month by a community or is really subject to change in that way which is why we go to you know trusted outside parties whether that's d5 polls or bank lists to construct a methodology that essentially remains the same month to month to month outside of those routine rebalances okay so that's the dpi we just mentioned uh maybe simon you could just take us through a few of the others so what is this eth 2x fli that feels like i'm going to get some some leveraged exposure to eth is that the case so first of all just for everybody listening so the e3x fly and the bt2x fly like these are some of the coolest

technological products that are out there in crypto right now they spent the the set engineering team spent months building these um at a very high level what is happening is it is a way of abstracting away a collateralized debt position right so some amount of btc is deposited in maker dye is borrowed out more is um and then with that die more each or btc is bought and it is a tokenized version of that that you can trade and the incredible thing about these products is you can quickly enter and exit leveraged positions in a way that simply isn't possible anywhere else in d5 right now um and you can enter and exit these positions on decentralized exchanges um pretty much instantaneously and you can

do it at scale and that's really that's really not possible anywhere else in d5 right now um and we're extremely excited about these products we have a number of other leveraged products that we're also in the process of developing and releasing and we see this as just being a absolutely massive market opportunity moving forward i think the cool thing about this is that you have turned leveraged in leverage into a money lego so leverage is now something that you can build upon simply by instantiating the leverage as an actual single asset uh in in defy and there are assets like this in the in the traditional finance world right there are there are assets that are inherently like leveraged gold or leveraged oil but we haven't really had these same assets

in in defy and there's obviously been like a pretty decent amount of demand because of the the market cap uh by both uh btc and eth fli uh so i think that's absolutely fantastic have you seen uh these assets being integrated as collateral anywhere or any of the money legos expressions of these assets being found anywhere else in defy we're in the baby baby step phase of these being integrated as collateral i believe people are doing it very very uh slowly to be fair we just uh we just launched our first ferrari capital fuse pool with fly as a collateral there um if anybody is feeling uh adventurous we do encourage

you to go over there and you know kind of play around with that that is that is david like you said that is the future that is kind of the the very cutting edge of what you can do with these products and it is going to be super exciting to see especially on layer twos especially on like polygon um you know how these products are incorporated into the broader money lagos of d5 all right this is super cool so so far guys we we have a token basically an index token that gives you exposure to d5 which is the dpi token then we have two other indexes that give you leveraged exposure to the crypto monies that is eth and and bitcoin that's the eth2 x fly and the bitcoin 2x fly now dark force was talking about this this metaverse index simon could

you describe what's in this this metaverse index it looks like it's maybe a a compilation of um sort of crypto gaming metaverse style you know uh tokens how was this selected and how did this come to be and maybe we could bring in dark forest uh to talk about this but first give it give us uh the high level simon so dark forest a dark force and ag know more about these protocols than anybody else in the world right now um i think they've built probably our most exciting index the way i think about this index is it's really like it's like an imagine in 1995 if you could own an index of nintendo sony uh microsoft saga genesis um and then maybe throw in pokemon in

there and the pokemon trading cards as well um it is one of the coolest things we have out there it's been you know i think everybody in the community is incredibly proud that they were able to put together this awesome index and launch it i am a huge mvi holder i think probably everybody in our community is um that's my pitch for it i'm sure paul can get into the details even more though yeah so so give it give it to us dark for us yeah definitely um first of all that was that was a decent effort simon you've clearly been doing your homework yeah bonus points for that um in terms of like how it came about and a little bit more about the methodology i guess it was um like i say i kind of put a proposal out back in october now and um having sat in my

mom's basement all year and seen the like the trend of stuff moving online whether that be like socializing entertainment business even like sports starting to either be streamed or take like digital versions of sport taking place um i thought there's something that can be done here and there was a lot of hype around nfts at the time but i figured the trend was going to be a lot broader than that i mean like this term of metaverse to me is is going to be like an emergent reality that blends our current like physical and digital realities that we see at the moment so the idea was how can we capture that trend um it's been accelerated by kovid as everything's sort of moving online

and that was what gave birth to to this uh product essentially and then ag came along and he has a decent financial background so he kind of tapped me on the shoulder and said look i think we can do something a little bit clever around the liquidity because at the time a lot of stuff was low liquidity so it's market cap weighted which we then square root which kind of reduces the volatility during rebalances and then we've also got a portion that uses aggregate liquidity and then we weight 25 by that so we're taking partly the market cap and partly the amount of liquidity available to really just try and protect ourselves in the early stages of this product as we sort of watch this market uh start to grow

dark forest when you talked about the liquidity and waiting by liquidity that's that's news to me that's actually pretty cool and i'm assuming you're actually tapping into on-chain data for on-chain liquidity or or are you also tapping into like liquidity on coinbase or gemini or other centralized exchanges yeah this is all decentralized and i think we probably wouldn't be welcome on this podcast if it if it wasn't so we uh yeah if it ain't bankless get out of here yeah that's how we do it um we don't negotiate with centralized entities [Laughter] well they are good for bridges you know we have to have our fiat bridges um but guys what i love about this product assortment is like it solves uh real problems that investors have when they're

entering the space as you were saying simon like the first thing people do when they get their their custody of their keys and they go bankless is they might buy something like dpi right people ask all the time okay which d5 token should i buy and this gives an easy answer to this just buy the d5 pulse index then you don't have to worry about it right mvi does the same thing only in the metaverse you just buy this asset and you have exposure to all of these up-and-coming metaverse style investments community type investments that's also um what we're doing with bed which is basically you know kind of the bankless thesis uh synergized into into one token where you get the crypto monies you get bitcoin and ether and you

also get exposure to dpi so you don't have to do anything just go into crypto buy this asset and you know spend the rest of time not worrying about price action but like playing with the cool crypto ecosystem that is before you but like the common theme across all of these products is you buy it and you set it and forget it like passive index investing and you guys have brought that into crypto and made it composable um jd i'm curious about this tell us about the the growth story here of some of these assets so i think uh um right now on the nx club website says there's 195 million or so diversified across these these assets so how has it grown since i guess september

2020 when you guys launched uh and what are the the most popular indexes uh so far yeah so um looking up the actual the actual charts here on our on our dashboard but we had um [Music] i think we launched dpi in september and the next product didn't actually come until was it late march early april when we launched fly so we were 100 dpi but since since that launch um dpi now is only about 60 of the aum where um e3x fly now has about another 20 and the remaining have the remaining

three products have the last 20 um so we've seen really especially with east 2x fly we've seen really explosive growth in unit supply since april um and metaverse especially the last month has been growing weekly um you know seven ten twelve percent in unit supply every single week which you know week-over-week growth like that is is really awesome to see um dpi um yeah since we even since you know we've launched those other products in in march we've seen another you know 100 percent growth in dpi as well so um

we're growing growing really quickly and it's only going to accelerate as we as we bring more products to the market jd we're showing a duna analytics dashboard i'm not sure you know someone from the bankless team dug this actually you're the author of it okay so is that that's that you right there jd that's me all right so is this like um a kpi uh dashboard that the index co-op team uses internally in the dow to sort of measure itself and to and to self-organize exactly yeah so this this main dashboard these are our core we call them north stars and core kpis the things that we try to orient ourselves on we report on them every week in our in our meetings and keep track of them so the key ones being you know address

exposure being focused on what users are holding our products unit supply is is just how we measure demand of our products in the market and the other one i want to touch on is unincentivized unit supply which you can find in there which especially for index products the whole point of an index product is that you don't the product itself the methodology the the value proposition of the index is is is incentive enough for you to hold hold it rather than having to be paid in what whether it's liquidity incentives or staking incentives so our goal is for these to be self-sustaining products because they're valuable in and of themselves without external

incentives for holding those are some of the core kpis we focus on yeah i wanted to bring attention to this one um so this is index co-op address exposure so is it the case that you have look it looks like just over 20 000 different ether addresses that hold an index co-op product and of course an eth address as listeners will remember that can be an individual or that could be some sort of capital pool that could represent a dow that could represent a an entire hedge fund it's like a bank account i guess would be the analogy in the traditional finance space um why is uh address exposure important to you does that represent sort of the uh i guess the distribution across

different different stakeholders and parties is that why that's important yeah i think i think it's important for this is i would say this is a high level metric for sure and it's important the reason why we have is it's important for us as a dow to be really intentionally focused on users um and it's hard like just for the reasons you said it can be hard because we don't know if one address equals one user if three addresses equal one user or if it represents a dow or or what not um but we have other metrics and other dashboards to try to break that out so we look at addresses by their their amount of exposure they have by when they signed up um so we really try to dig in as much as we can and we're in

the process because we want to be user-centric um we the whole point of our dow is we pump out want to pump out multiple products a year and everyone should have strong product market fit and and user fit and that's what we want to stay focused on awesome you know one ryan if i could just jump in one quick note here is this is really like what jd's built here this is really one of the best dashboards in d5 and i think if you spend a lot of time on these dashboards going through it you recognize like this is really the future of financial reporting like this is where this is the 10k many many companies 100 and like these this is kind of the cutting edge of it but five years from now

there's going to be a significant number of companies in s p 500 that report their earnings using a dune analytics dashboard something like what jd has built here like that is the future we are moving towards and once you start playing around with it you really recognize the power of these dashboards and the power of on-chain data well it's so cool this is powerful i'm glad you brought this up simon because this is powerful for dows themselves because anybody in the dow can go tap into this data and start measuring it this is this is powerful for analysts who are trying to figure out okay what is index co-op really doing and how do i look at the the like the value or potential future for index as a as a token it's valuable for other partners who

want to you know like do something with with index uh it's also valuable and they don't appreciate this yet guys but they will it's valuable to regulators this is insanely valuable data to regulators because we're moving from a system of like uh force disclosures right where organizations say corporations have to be pushed into you know from a regulatory perspective disclosing things every quarter and it's sort of selective in terms of what what they can disclose to something that is completely open like everything is on chain all of your products all of your revenues all of your fees like all the way down to kind of the

code and who who manages the code which is it's like all public it's all unchained i wish regulators could figure this out because there's some regulatory fund right now about defy but like show them a dune analytics dashboard right like what more information do you want this is like this is way better than any 10k i've seen it's actually digestible understandable if you don't like it you know change the data around build the graphs out in a different way they have access to all of this this is why we call it open finance people sorry rant over but i'm glad you mentioned that simon that actually brings me into my the the next question i wanted to ask anyways is how are indices built on d5 fundamentally different than indices

built in in traditional finance and one of the answers that we just gave is is well there's more there's more data there's more transparency there's more reporting but what else is there to talk about with with why indices on defy are are so powerful and how they're meaningfully different than the indices that we know in on our robinhood of the council or traditional brokerages um jd do you want to take that one yeah um i'm thinking so if anybody else simon or paul have a better answer in the meantime go ahead yeah so i think the thing go ahead paul yeah yeah i was just gonna say that the main thing is like i think you have the ability to do very similar things but it's all much cooler

in d5 because it's all self-sovereign so we have the ability to execute meta governance for example using the underlying tokens in dpi um and i don't know anybody who holds an amazon amazon share that's ever voted on anything you know amazon related whereas if you're a dpi holder you're not only holding the tokens in your wallet but um or if you're an index token holder sorry you can like use your index tokens to vote on an rv proposal for example and we we can use the amount of valve tokens held within dpi because of the way the contracts work to actually vote on our va proposals so um as an index token holder you have like this extra superpower

called meta governments and that's one thing then we've got stuff like intrinsic productivity which at the moment we're still kind of talking about and trying to figure out because it is so new um but what we can do there is start to look at ways to make these underlying tokens productive so could we have a contract for example that you deposit dpi into we break it into its constituent parts and then you stake your wi-fi in the wi-fi government governance portal for example um so you can then start to yield on your assets as well and like yeah i mean compare that to holding even holding crypto in a robin hood account you can't really do anything with it um there's just so much more composability and interoperability with uh like erc token elc20 tokens

yeah i mean so like paul said so comparing a on-chain index and and i just i firmly believe i think everybody index co-op believes this like all etfs all index ones are eventually going to be held on chain and comparing an on-chain index to an off-chain like normal etf it's really like comparing like a 1960s like honda accord or 1970s honda accord like a 2021 tesla s like model s right like they're both cars right they'll both like get you to the grocery store but they are very very different technologies and one will do it in a far far more efficient way and you know be able to do it in just an extremely efficient manner in a

way that you know the pre prior technology just can't and on top of that like you can use our indexes for collateral you can borrow against them you can lend against them you can you know at any moment return those indexes for all of the underlying um and like those that that a level of compostability is just simply not accessible in in normal index funds normal products and like yes the gray scales this world are entering like or goldman sachs right like the crypto etf the d5 etf like on-chain indexes are just it's just an entirely different world of efficiency and capital of capital efficiency that is just not accessible in private in previous types of funds yeah i feel like so um

like once you go into this world and you start doing things with with defy tokens things like like these indices tokens and then you go back and log back in i don't know if you guys have done this but log back into your like your brokerage account like your charles schwab account your e-trade account you're sitting there looking at the etfs you hold there and you're like oh my god what do i do with these things i log in and visit them in like jail you know once a month or whatever but they're stuck here they're not doing anything for me they're completely trapped and you compare that to like the dpi token which you can use anywhere else in d5 right we're talking about governance you can also use this as a super fluid collateral to back

alone i mean that's sci-fi stuff that's crazy stuff and only until you start to experience like the defy side of it do you actually see how uh how all of your other etf assets are basically in like brokerage jail um yeah so i i'm curious about this the uh the the index curation process and uh paul dark forest you're you're talking about proposing um the the metaverse uh index i'm curious what that process is like so if someone like you has a good idea wants to be a methodologist for index co-op what's the process for getting an index submitted approved and created what does that look like how long does it take um yeah that's a good question and is

something that's being approached by the community at the moment to try and improve because i think that we've we found some sticking points like we're not perfect with it at the moment but basically it comes down to coming up with an idea and whether that's something completely novel like the fly series where it's you know abstracted leverage basically or if it's a really powerful theme like the d5 pulse index or the metaverse index or obviously bed um so basically the first step is to approach our community and that takes place on the forum and so you'd put a post out on the forum and say here's our idea um we have a template for this so any potential methodologists will follow that template and they'll say

you know here's our potential addressable market here's how the methodology will work here's how we're going to approach you know integrating it is what the unique parts of it are and then what the co-op community does really well is they'll come out onto the forum and say okay we like this or we don't like this we've seen this work here's the data very often you know we're going to pester jd to to get some more information around stuff and then we'll try and refine refine that post effectively um and then we have a couple of like formal gateways so assuming that the feedback is is fairly good and the sentiment is positive now we can have a first of all a community call which we did with you guys which

was great because everybody got to feel like a rock star and be on a call with uh david and ryan from bankless which is awesome and um and and that's another opportunity for the community to learn a bit more about like what the methodologists offer what they're thinking about the product um but if assuming everything's positive there we we go to dg one which is decision gate one and that's the first actual vote where index token holders can have a say on a product and at that point excuse me it's basically just to gauge the sentiment so there's no quorum as far as i remember but it's just to say are we in general agreement or not once that goes through then there is a product team that basically dives onto it head first and

does a deep dive and says okay they said here's that this is what the addressable market is do we actually see that coming true what kind of reach do they have what's the engineering lift in the background you know what's it going to take what does the fee split look like and what's the return on investment for index co-op so all of those hard numbers go into a prioritization rubric and then that helps us to prioritize our product pipeline from there it then falls into um once it gets to the you know the end of that pipeline or the top of the priority it will go to dg2 which is the the final vote that does have a quorum requirement i think it's five 15 percent has to vote and uh 60 have to has to be in favor and if you pass that

you get to launch your product with index co-op so index co-op has been praised has been one of the most like fluid and efficient and streamlined dowels that's out there and that was definitely my experience when ryan and i were we're going through uh the the whole dow process with the bed index um but but i have a i have a critique i want to play devil's advocate here is that you know this industry runs on permissionlessness and it seems to be that index co-op is really careful and really methodical about the indices that it wants to create but that means that you have to actually go to the index co-op and ask for permission to make an index and so what about you know this the average person who wants to make their own index for

their own purposes uh is this uh something that you guys have your sites on maybe in the road map for index co-op just making uh making an index a little bit easier or what's the what's the the social contract of the dow with how it approaches to opening or lowering the the gates or the barriers to actually making making an index yeah i can i can take that for a second um i think that the vision is to get to a point where whether it's an incubator style or whatever it looks like the vision is to get to a point where where anybody really can come in and create an index and that's actually possible you know with token sets on its own without the

index cop you can create an index product and try to drive a um really the index co-op is would be is like look thinking about like a partnership with a complete distribution platform engineers product people marketers business development so the co-op right now as we're really only eight nine months old even though that growth has been really fast you know we're focused on launching big products products that are going to really win the market because because this market is a winner takes most market um and we need to be focused on winning the market and as at the same time improving our processes so it becomes easier and easier to work with the index co-op to launch products and i think we're very

aware that we need to improve those processes over time and and we're focused on that too hey simon i'm curious your perspective on this but like putting your biz dev hat on so um jd was talking about you know adoption right growing this is big as it as it can grow and it's very clear that you have mind share among sort of the the crypto natives the d5 natives for index co-op products right like check that box you know that's only going to grow well done um i i see two other areas of growth like one area of growth is uh centralized exchanges so is there a way to get these assets listed on centralized exchanges when we had uh jim bianco over he was just

talking about like um he's done gone into that he's a you know a fund manager cnbc uh contributor this sort of thing and the question he always gets when people get into crypto they'll create their coinbase account they're like oh okay how do i buy the defy token now like where is that and i'm like well that's dpi how soon like is there a world where something like dpi gets embedded in these crypto exchanges and uh if so how soon is that world coming uh simon what do you think yeah ryan that's so that's a very interesting point that we've been we've really navigated over the last eight months so i think of first just for

context i think it's good to understand a lot of the exchanges that centralized exchanges are still very much operating from like a 2017 ico right where they are very much built to keep out the ico tokens and then screen you know a certain number of tokens based on volume to allow onto their exchanges what we're starting to see with a lot of the leading exchanges um is they're really starting to transition their business model from like a closed garden approach that really centralize exchanges from say 2017 to 2020 to more of an open garden approach like what characterizes a uni swap or a sushi swap so we're a in the middle of that transition and i think all d5 protocols right now are feeling

the pain of that right as we're like struggling to get each of these different products you know dbi mvi bad you know the tokenized leveraged products like listed on centralized exchanges like we're very much like working through that um and you know we are in active communication with several of the top tier um centralized exchanges right now and like i think there's going to be some extremely solid movement there over the next couple months with really our full list of products and i think the other segway on top of that is the the index index co-op and our our products like we're going to be because of our strategy of partnering with really blue chip methodologies such as bankers such

as d5 pulse like we're going to be the first choice index partner for major institutional capital like that is where we see ourselves as a protocol that is where we see um you know these massive in these massive funds there are funds that are about to flow into d5 like we see them flowing into um dpi into mvi into bad because the reality is like we think of institutional capital super highly sophisticated which it is but these like these major banks these major financial institutions like they don't have the defy knowledge that we've built over the last two years like they are just as you know just as blind in this space as the average consumer and they are going to want exposure um

in through index products they're going to need it and you know a big play we're making index co-op is we want to be the landing spot for all of that institutional capital this is so cool right it's like at some level hey we got to save them from the goldman sachs d5 etf right because like that's what's going on and even you know god bless grayscale love their efforts high management fees you know and like and you don't actually own your own crypto assets so like i'm curious because institutional defy has sort of been a theme we've seen compound treasury release sort of an institutional product ave um with uh their ave pro product which david that's called something else isn't it it's not ave

proven ave arc product uh so how close do you think we are to for institutions to be able to directly buy and hold uh index co-op products like the dpi or or bed um are we far away from that do the exchanges need to integrate that or is there a world where they start buying before these things are even listed on exchanges so up to so up to right now and this is a common misconception so up to right now what institutional defy has meant really up until like the present moment is institutional participation and staking right so there are numerous funds in switzerland in europe

in the united states that are very active in defy staking so you know a number of top hedge funds are very are recognizing or have already recognized that hey like i can beat my my expected return just by you know either playing in stable coin pools or staking right and i can beat the return that i would get investing in like a more volatile asset class a more volatile like traditional equity asset class right so that transition that evolution has like the boom has happened like maybe we haven't seen the mushroom cloud but the boom has happened um so what we're starting to see right now is these funds that have entered the space

and have been very active and staking they've been very active in lpn you know stable coin pairs they're starting to really expand their horizon of how they think about d5 and how they think about investing in the space um and really like the next step in that is is them directly holding um actual governance tokens holding indexes like dpi they're they're very very close to it and you know what we're seeing right now is you know really over the last year the crypto space the d5 space it was dominated by about 15 to 20 kind of what i would call defy native funds right like your three arrow capital your almeida

some of these and that is slowly transitioning right those funds still dominate a large sector of it but that is transitioning to more traditional venture capital funds who are entering space with a specific thesis of holding governance tokens long term and treating you know these early stage d5 protocols like any anything held in dpi or index co-op like they would a really like a world-class series a funded startup right like that is how these you know institutional capital is starting to treat governance tokens and that is an incredible shift and it is going to be an incredible accelerator for

[Music] at widescreen.d5 because you know these previous funds that just you know they traded and dumped right that was a very bad reputation for vcs what we were transitioning to is major vcs holding these governance tokens as long-term investments that they expect to develop and grow over the period of decades and that is so incredibly exciting for d5 and where we're headed guys this has been a fantastic exploration into the world of index co-op and excuse me uh and like i said earlier in the show index co-op has been praised for being one of the most uh you know streamlined and and fluid dials there is there's out there and so we i really want to pick your brains about how index co-op uh how it how it dials what does it mean to dow from the index

cloud perspective and i also want to get into the bed index because i think there are some really interesting things about the bet index that are worth noting notably the fact that an index co-op product dpi is actually in another index co-op product bed i think that's a something i want to parse apart but before we get to the second half of the show i want to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible living a bankless life requires taking control of your own private keys not your keys not your crypto that's why so many in the bankless nation already have their ledger hardware wallets which makes proper private key management a breeze but the ledger ecosystem is more than just a secure hardware wallet ledger is the combination of the ledger hardware wallet and the ledger live app

and if you're used to seeing all of your crypto services and favorite d-apps all in one place ledger is where you want to be not only does ledger let you buy crypto assets straight from the app but it also hooks into decentralized exchange aggregators like paraswap which makes sure that you are getting the best prices on your trades without your assets ever leaving your control defy never stops growing and the ledger live app grows alongside with it so click the link in the show notes to see all the defy apps that ledger live has and stay tuned as more and more apps come online and if you don't have a ledger hardware wallet what are you even waiting for go to ledger.com grab your ledger download ledger live and get all of your dapps all in one place bankless is proud to be supported by

uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the uni-swapped out apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the

uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion dollars this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dal no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer unit swap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get unit swap to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless all right guys we are back with the team from index co-op uh and in the first half of the show we went through all the things about indices both in traffic and d5 and why they are so cool in the second half of the show i think i really want to get into the actual dao side of index co-op the index co-op is a dao

and my experience uh with interacting with the index co-op is they are one of the most streamlined dows in existence and so i want to ask about the topology or the organ org structure of indexed out how is index dow organized um and so uh who who do you think in the of the three members on this panel is most equipped to answer that question i can take that one i've been fairly involved um yeah i'd say a high level uh it's it's mainly between like working groups and our funding council um but those things didn't exist in the like the format that we see them today nine months ago all of this stuff has kind of like ebbed and

flowed as we've as we've scaled um one thing i should say is that definitely like set protocol are a very switched on an organized bunch and they started us off on the right foot with our like our weekly calls um felix i remember encouraging like one-to-ones and just really embracing like this group of decentralized cats that you're trying to herd via zoom calls like it's just it's very complicated to do but the way that we set up our structure at the beginning i think has really helped us um so in terms of the working groups that was put forward a few months back and the idea behind that is you basically set out and anyone can do

this these are emergent so anyone can come out onto the forum and say i think the index card needs a business development working group and they propose a time box for it so let's say a quarter that's what we've kind of ended up doing and so simon will come out and say we need to do some bd and we're going to do it for three months here's how many people are going to be involved here are the initiatives that we're going to target here's how you can hold us accountable like make sure that the community can like hold them accountable to it um but then what we have on top of that is the funding council so the funding council started as a group of like set members on a multi-sig that we're able to fund these things at their discretion

and what we're trying to do now is part of like autonomy discussions in the co-op is hand over the power of that council to the co-op and make sure that it's co-op members on the multisig and co-op members like advising the decisions there um so it's been quite a hot topic recently especially around like the idea of autonomy and it is a progressive like decentralization effort that we're going through but i think we do owe a lot of it to set we then owe a lot of it to the community members that have like picked it up run with it and and iterated it as well um and so yeah hopefully you guys had a really good experience as you came through the process with us simon you want to add something

yeah i was going to say you know i think something that is really i think you know in crypto right now simon we have uh lost you on the stream so i'm going to uh move on um i'm sure we'll get you back at some point in time um uh oh he's actually gone gone okay maybe not um paul i have a follow-up question on that uh can you just go ahead and list off all of the working groups that are in the index co-op and and what they do oh that's a that's a test um it is this month uh yeah we're going through like our second phase of it at the moment so um there's a fair few but we have uh

we have the growth working group which is obviously focused around growth marketing business development we have uh people organization and community we have analytics we have meta governance we have a product um obviously uh we have what else do we have potentially a language one coming up as well uh institutional business institutional business yeah it's a new one this month as well and i've probably missed another one in there so if you add all of the working groups together is that index co-op in its totality or are there other parts of

index co-op that are outside of the working groups as well yeah so that's a really good question actually um so what we were doing as as the funding council was kind of uh basically giving out rewards to contributors and what we've moved to is this model where because the three of us on the council were basically too far away from the coal face to the point where we couldn't reward people accurately because we couldn't keep track of what 60 or 70 people were doing in the dow so we've pushed that responsibility down to the working group leads um so they're requesting a budget they're saying here's the work that i need to do to make this successful they tie it to our kpis and then here's how much money i need and here's the contributors that are going to do that work um so the funding

council just basically requests a budget to fund that there are still some bits and pieces like the fall between the gaps because obviously we can't account for everything in all of the working groups we might have a really good idea or something in d5 might change to where we have to you know react to it and a bunch of work gets done that needs rewarding so there will always be the funding council to kind of like fill those gaps as well and make sure that contributors are rewarded across the whole it's so fascinating guys because i feel like um every dow is is trying to figure out how to dow right now and that they're having uh varying degrees of success but what we see in index co-op is is a model of success like you guys seem to run at least from the like the

outside looking in like a well-oiled machine and so i'm super impressed with that and i think you've already shared a few of the things that you've learned uh along the way but maybe i'm curious just to put in a question is like what what are the um the lessons learned on dowing that you have to like pass on to other dows what are the things that dao should do what are the things they should avoid doing from your experience um jd let's start with you if you if you have some thoughts on this yeah um so i think one thing that's becoming apparent now so this made blended and more kind of like what we're learning because we are we're definitely learning right now i i think

we are trying to push the envelope and that's great in a lot of ways and i think the computer community has been awesome to realize like we're in a learning process and we're figuring this out over time but like paul mentioned with seth's leadership from the get-go enabled us to make the right strategic bets right on dpi and on the fly series but over the last few months as we've launched new products we've grown our community we're learning how do we how do we maintain like high level strategic alignment and still make strong bets and focus ourselves when we have eight ten working groups um and i think we're learning what those structures

look like right now it's the funding cancelled working groups we have a we just launched an autonomy working group to explore this with other stakeholders more deeply and and i think that's the challenge i think we're facing so as other dows think about it like that's the challenge maybe to look forward to is as your community grows you it's harder to keep focus and to focus everybody on the same few initiatives that you and the big bets you might need to make as a as a young as a young organization what are your thoughts dark force um yeah first of all it just popped into my head that uh the engineering working group which is a massive one that i missed off my list earlier

i was going to say that something like i came across that i mentioned on our forum was this this um like thought model or this uh like hypothetical situation and it's called chesterton's fence and i've seen people on twitter and from other dows kind of talking about this and what it is is imagine two people are walking in a field and they come across a fence or a gate but there's nothing either side of it so you could easily quite easily go around it so one person says to the other what's this doing here we should just get rid of it and the other guy says well as soon as you can tell me why it's here then we can get rid of it and so i think what we're seeing in daos is a lot of people come in and i did the

same very naively thinking that i decentralization solves everything unfortunately it it doesn't you have to have a group of like high context um highly accountable people to make decisions and move stuff forward because otherwise you you get a lot of friction a lot of delay so i think we found as jd said like set kicking things off really helped us and now we've got to a point where we really quite rapidly need to move to index co-op having the the power as either the funding council or some other thing that we haven't yet had and we and we see this at synthetics with their spartan council as well where you have potentially an elected group of people

who are empowered to make decisions quickly and i think that's a really powerful lesson learned because the longer you try and hold on to like um voting by committee or decision by committee uh the the more you're gonna slow yourself up potentially yeah that's great feedback paul thank you for that simon what would you add what are some lessons learned from uh from dowing so far so i think the mistake people make is they think decentralized means leaderless right and decentralized protocols and taos thrive on the strength of the leaders they have and index co-op you know from day one we have built this culture of ownership a culture of trust a culture of integrity a culture that really

embraces and values strong leadership like jd mentioned like he was like hey you know index co-op really values analytics we have six or seven different people like working on analytics like no jd cook is a great leader and he has you know managed to get this awesome team of eight or ten people working on analytics and like paul is you know being or dr force being very humble saying oh you know we have this counselor this council this direction it's like no like dark forest you know helped put this together and like drove it made it happen and you know what i think of what makes doubts successful and is it's people taking ownership and then

it's embracing dows when it's high stakes like anybody can be like elephant out and have a multi-sig and kind of be hanging out with your buddies and it's like whatever but what really differentiates a great dow from all the others is like can your doubt operate when the stakes are really high and at index cup i mean this is a business on the blockchain like we handle hundreds of millions of dollars the stakes are always very very high and we have put a tremendous premium on leaders who can a handle stakes when they're that high and then execute an extremely high level that's fantastic and and uh i think it's really interesting to to note that when you look at all the other like dows in

the space like ave in theory is a dao but you know the name stani and like uniswap is a dow but you know the name hayden with index there doesn't really actually seem to be one like figurehead but there does seem to be like many many many leaders uh moving each one of these working groups forward so i i think that's pretty cool uh one of one of the last few questions we have as we come to the end of the show is what what are the products that are in the pipeline that are not yet uh to not yet released out of the index co-op that are really uh that excite you guys are there any you know uh teasers that you guys could give us about future index co-op indices coming out of the out of the dao before before we do products can we do

can i just do a shout out to two initiatives that are happening absolutely i'm really excited about yeah so index co-op we were launching the first dow internship program um it is happening it is kicking off august 9th we have seen i believe over 200 applicants so far to internet index co-op um we want the next generation like we don't want them to you know just land on 400 388 applicants so far like if we want the best and brightest to come to index co-op we want them not to say i'm gonna go work at google or facebook we want them to say i'm gonna go work at d5 and we're very committed to making that happen and i think the other thing i also want to give a shout out to is you know index co-op has really made a

commitment to be a leader when it comes to diversity and inclusion in d5 um i would say you know over half of our core team members are mentors for c256 um we have an incredibly successful women in index co-op community call that happens every thursday that has you know we have 20 plus women every thursday from across d5 from across crypto coming helping out with the co-op learning about it getting involved and like those are two initiatives that i'm really fired up about and i think as d5 grows like this can't just be a movement for you know a thousand people or two thousand people like it has to be everybody and we have

to build structures where everybody in the world can feel comfortable entering these dows entering those organizations and really pushing things forward yeah and that's a an answer to a question that i wouldn't have known to ask so so thank you for for that perspective simon um but also back to my original question uh what other indices are coming down the pipeline that are that we can all get excited about in the future i can i can touch on a couple um we are just about to vote on on the data index um which is uh a thematic index to give you exposure to data economies on chain data economies such as

graph protocol ocean protocol um even like bat and orchid like there's uh chain link this this yeah this chain link yeah sorry i should have maybe started them um yeah this this whole idea of if you don't include them by the way jd yeah they'll they will absolutely let you know yeah so i mean it's just this this theme of web3 data economies um capturing a lot of these which are really interesting tokenomics and a lot of them these utility tokens um into an index we have uh proposed going to dg1 the the pay you can see these on our form the pay index which is a a yield bearing stable coin index so nine yield bearing stable

coins um trying to maximize your risk adjusted returns on stable coins which could be very powerful for both dows and individuals in their portfolios and then the continuation of the fly series um inverse eth is one of the is the next one coming through um so allows you to get inverse exposure to eth movement um am i missing any other ones that are closer we're calling that we're calling that the down only index [Laughter] what would that mean if i'm holding inverse eath i'm just curious that means like when when eath goes up um you know i'm going down i guess and vice versa

exactly so i mean this is a this is a continuation of on a market of like really um sophisticated traders right the the these products these leveraged products aren't necessarily meant to be buy and hold products like our thematic indices are these are more for people that are moving in and out of positions relatively quickly and we are building out a series that will cater to this market um that being the next one uh so my next question is actually about uh the bed token the bed index which again came out of the bank list dow i'm super excited about it like i said the best crypto index uh that i think will ever come out uh but you know it's very

early so maybe i shouldn't say that too soon but uh paul as as the methodologist behind mvi i have a question about the the nuance in the bed index because the d part of bed is of course dpi which is a product out of index co-op and so there's an index co-op product inside of bed index which is another index co-op product in partnership with bagless dow um how did that change did that like throw a wrench in the in the in the in the gears about how you think about um the methodology behind the bed index or how did that change what you were really kind of thinking about with index co-op products um not as far as i'm aware i think from for me personally i thought it was quite

interesting because i kind of see the bed index is like a growth hack for dpi to an extent so the fact that we've we've got it included in there and we've partnered with you know the bankless dow and yourselves who have fantastic reach and great educational materials i think putting those two things together um helps us like really spread the word about you know what you can do in d5 and and for these um brand new investors to the space like this it's a perfect product really for those kind of people so yeah i don't think as far as i'm aware like i say i don't think it was any um spanners in in the works but

it's just a really like a really advantageous thing to do and then it's going to help us like spread the word about dpi and d5 more generally i i think the cool thing about uh what you can do by turning your own tokens into another index is um bankless dow partnered with index co-op to produce the bet index but there's dpi inside of the bet index and so in a way there's like an unofficial money lego relationship between bankless dow and defy pulse which has you know no other connection other than uh the actual uh than what's in the actual bed index so i think that it's like this unofficial relationship that i think is pretty cool and that very much goes to uh what um kevin owaki was saying over at uh at uh

ecc when he talks about how all dows will all rise together and fall together and putting the relationship of a dow on chain allows other dials to just tap into the power of other dows i don't really have a question there but if anyone wants to riff on that i'll open the floor yeah i mean i i think like i i love that point and you know something it provides a synergy with multiple partners trying to push everybody forward just like you're saying and i think one of the things i'm really excited about with that is we talk about this like new new crypto user retail market and i mean i've already had multiple people on twitter or just text me and be like hey what's

this bed how do i bed bed token how do i get into it and i'm really excited to see two really passionate communities at banquet style and index co-op really try to focus and innovate on how we start to penetrate you know new crypto you like new adoption incoming crypto users investors um and i think that's like we've talked about the bed being this doubted out partnership and the the uniqueness and of that and i'm really excited to see that play out is how we come together as communities to really drive a new adoption through bed that's my hope for the product in a large part

what are the things i've been thinking about while on this call and i want to run this idea by you guys because it might be crazy or it might be genius one of the two uh is all of the indices on index co-op they're supposed to be quality right like you're not supposed to be throwing crap tokens into these into these indices each one of these indices is made with purpose made with intent which means there should be quality in every single one of the the indices so have you guys thought about the index co-op index which is just an index of all the products that you guys have ever created have has this been like passed around in back channels have you guys thought about this jd i'll throw this one to you yeah um it's it's been thrown there might even be a discussion going on the

forums right now with a couple ideas around indexes of the the i think somebody called it the co the coupe just that that would be the ticker and it would just be every index we launched gets added um maybe like thematic indexes or simple indices but it's definitely been thrown around it i don't know how far it is in the process but um you're you're not off on that idea nice uh guys this has been a blast uh thanks for hanging out with us um i want to end with with this question because you know we titled this episode building the uh the decentralized black rock right and so you know decentralized blackrock that that is quite a i mean i don't know how

many trillions they managed it's got to be six six trillion excuse me there's six trillion in etfs i don't know how block rocket is but tr i think it's close to the six to ten trillion right so um what's it going to take for index co-op to become the decentralized black rock like what's it gonna take to get that level are you guys serious about that or is that sort of a a tongue-in-cheek uh sort of joke what are your thoughts simon i can i can take that so in the next five years index co-op is going to be the largest crypto asset management platform in the world um over the next 10 years we will be competing directly with vanguard and blackrock um for the etf space

we firmly believe that we are moving to a tokenized world all the traditional securities like will eventually be tokenized and we are you know laser focused on on being being the protocol where that hap i think we lost anyone want to finish his thought yeah it's it's a great place to end almost yeah yeah i mean i don't know if i can i i was so excited for the the energy that was about to come from him but i that might be the place yeah i mean we literally have a phrase within the co-op that is big sky energy because he always comes on at the

end of calls and like tells us how we're going to be 5 billion aum in like a year um yeah look he's back on so hopefully simon can finish his thought hey simon you still hanging with us hey simon go ahead and go ahead and finish your thought if you don't mind yeah so like i said index co-op is going to be the single largest crypto asset management platform in the world in the next five years and in the next 10 years we'll be competing directly with vanguard and blackrock um the way that happens is you know we are moving to a tokenized world where the majority of real world assets real-world securities real-world etfs are held in in um in

tokens that live on ethereum um you know we firmly believe that that will happen in a decentralized way like that is the only way to power really the the financial revolution of the future that can manage this level of complexity um and you know we like how that happens on a tactical level right like there's mass adoption that needs to happen there's mass um you know awareness of the space but what happens with us internally is you know the one lesson we take from tradify that i think and this is a real lesson is how do you build an institution that will last for a decade how do you build institutions that will last for 50 years or 100 years and yes right now like

these what we're building it happens on chain and these are all very nascent organizations but we are very very focused on building a protocol that will last for the next decade that will last for the next 50 years that is built on humans it is built on core values it is built on our framework of trust where millions and millions of families can one day you know entrust the financial future of their families to what we are building and that is the reality we are moving to and that that framework and that foundation of values is what will enable us to compete directly with vanguard compete directly with blackrock and and we are going to do it better than they

have done it we are going to do it in a better way in a more equitable way in a way that is more fair for families across the world um and the only way to do that is through decentralized finance there you go guys uh index co-op it's been a pleasure to have you on bankless it's clear you guys are dead serious about uh decentralized version of blackrock five years to flip in the crypto banks and ten you'll be flipping the traditional black rocks of the world it's been a pleasure to have you guys on bank list thanks so much thank you thank you appreciate it thankless listeners awesome show yeah thanks simon bankless listeners as always we've got some action items for you go check out the index co-op products you can do that at

indexcoop.com of course number two you can also check out the bed index super excited about that just launched i think uh to wednesday or thursday of last week i think it launched with over a million in assets under management it's like 1.5 or so by the time you are listening to that so go check it out save your friends don't get them to invest in terrible assets they find on uh youtube unless you're you're tuned into this youtube channel uh buy bed instead sleep comfy at night risk disclaimers guys of course crypto is risky so is eth so are the indexes that we talked about in this episode you could lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the

frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bank list experience you'll get access to our market analysis our alpha leaks and exclusive content and even the bankless token for airdrops raffles and unlocks if you're interested in crypto the bankless community is where you want to be click the link in the description to become a bankless premium subscriber

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