Building Across L1s and L2s | EBC11

Transcript

All right, I'm going to find our seats in order so you know who's talking. Good morning everyone. Thank you so much to our hosts Victoria and Danielle. Uh we're here on the Bit Panda main stage for day two of EBC 2025 and we're here to wake you up. We're here to talk about a really important topic building across L1 and L2s. Uh my name is Otto Jacobson. I'm the uh CFO and I run Yap Global which is the leading PR firm in digital asset blockchain and crypto. But enough about me. Let's hear from our panelist. Guys, would you would you mind introducing yourself and what you do a little bit?

>> Good morning. Very shortly so on the show. I work for consensus. Been there for eight years now. Before that I had my blockchain startup. Um I'm leading business development. I'm focused on linear. Now linear is a layer two. Uh we did RTG uh 3 weeks ago. It's a project we started in 2019. Very different from other uh layer 2s. It's not optim op optimistic. Um it's instant finality the proof straight on the on the on the on the main net and uh yeah $2 billion FDV just starting.

>> Hello, thanks for having me. I'm Helm Seidel. I'm the chairman of the DMD Diamond Association, which is a nonprofit organization. Uh, and our goal is to uh raise awareness for blockchain technology uh educate people about it and especially for the uh blockchain layer 1 DMD diamond. >> Hi, good morning everyone. I'm Matthew. I work at the Ethereum Foundation. The Ethereum Foundation's goal is to increase the hardness and resilience of the Ethereum blockchain and ecosystem both on the technical and social level.

I'd say I focus on the social side of it in the enterprise and institutional team helping institutions that are looking to build on Ethereum and within the ecosystem. So that includes the layer 1 and layer 2s like Linear for instance. Good morning. >> Hey everyone, Munir from Vora. We used to be known as Paris swap for a few years and rebranded like six months ago. Actually this is my first conference where I'm speaking after the rebranding and uh well vela what we do we are can see us is like a trading venue that's non-custodial that's decentralized so we aggregate liquidity from 10 chains not yet linear but hopefully soon and uh we processed over $130 billion in in volume

and we empowered apps like a morpho ledger and others uh for swaps or also other complex use cases that still involve swaps and we are known for like crosschain, MV resistance and uh best execution. Thank you. >> Great. Thanks so much guys. Well uh I want to start us off with a quote from Balaji. He said that decentralization is not the absence of a leader but rather the multitude of leaders. So it might look bewildering to some even in the industry the proliferation of L1's L2s and so on but surely it's a good thing that we have all these chains popping up right disagree does anyone agree?

I think the ability for L2s to permissionally uh permissionlessly uh be created is important. um L2s and L1's but fundamentally L2s um the ability to inherit Ethereum security particularly L2 being like a superset um and rollups being a subset of L2s where they use Ethereum data availability which then grounds them at the most secure chain um is a good thing but of course not every company not every application needs its own two own L2 necessarily um so we may see consolidation But the experimentation and innovation is a good thing I think. So

>> yeah. >> So because it's early in the morning maybe I make a step back but when we um when Joe Lubin and Vitalik created Ethereum they had this trilma that you all know which is scability decentralization and security. So tech the tech especially on Ethereum has been uh been developed but we're still not there yet for all use cases. So in the meantime, we've seen a lot of L1 um L2s as well forking Ethereum or other technologies to uh maximize throughput or but it's always been at the expense of one of those three, right? So most of

the time it was a scability and security was not there, centralization was not there. But the ultimate goal will still be to have a decentralized world uh very secured and with a high output throughput and um so in the really long term it's great now that we have auto set one L2s in the really long term do we really need all of those chains or I don't know today we have uh one internet HTTP right are we going to have uh several HTTP in the future for web three I'm Not too sure.

>> Helmet would love to hear your thoughts here. >> Yeah, I'm I'm seeing it a little bit different because I think that um you're right. If if uh multiple layer ones would be just like a a clone of existing Ethereum technology just for scalability. You say okay you can run on multiple chains uh multiple uh transaction at the same time. This is the same thing you can do with layer 2 also. So as scalability you're right but I think the for the decentralization aspect it's needed that uh there are different layer ones not only one big layer one and and then all the layer 2s are around it because from the decentralization point of view this is

just one blockchain. Yeah. Uh so multiple layer ones uh not only they increase scalability and decentralization they also can have different abilities. Yeah. So, so uh for example DMD diamond yes we are full EVM compatible. So you can do anything that you can do on Ethereum also here code the same language migrated project very easy but on the other hand this blockchain is secured by another consensus engine which is the honeybatcher cooperative consensus engine and this uh generate totally new abilities. Yeah. So I think in in a interconnected uh blockchain future there are multiple layer ones connected by multiple ways how they can interact

and this is creating real decentralization and not uh what the one chain to rule them all >> great thank you anyone want to jump in here you look like >> I just add that I I agree that we may not have thousands of L1's and L2s in the future because It's just even though it can solve it, >> 1,000 is enough. >> 1,000 is enough. Yeah, we're going to stop at 1,000. [laughter] But I believe in like specialized L1's and L2s like for very specific use cases that can solve it like in their own niche because the thing is having L1 is like an L1 or L2 is like a decentralized back end. So instead of using AWS servers, we're going to use L1's and L2s to have like a

kind of a decentralized database that removes the trust factor to for the end users. So I I hardly believe we're going to have more L1's and L2s successful at least. But I think uh we may have specialized L1. We can see some of that emerging like for instance spots is a new L1 that specialize in like auctions for instance like in decentralized auctions. So I believe this could be a trend. But the things the thing I learned from cryptoban in few years is that we can hardly hardly predict what's going to happen in the future. I didn't believe in specialized L1 only few years ago and we can see that happening already and quite successful like hyperlquid in and others.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So Matt Matthew I want to ask you because um there's been some specific you know some institutions some uh kind of traditional or companies coming in and building L2s but recently we've also seen some some of them choosing to build their own L1. So how do how do you think about that from the Ethereum Foundation perspective? What what what's your pitch to uh to these institutions for building an L2? >> Um just touching quickly on the last point and then I think it links in. I would say that we of course want to extend and improve decentralization.

More L1s is not increasing the decentralization of chains or the ecosystem. Decentralization is the number of nodes, the number of validators that are validating and therefore giving the blockchain the values of consens of censorship resistance, resilience and hardness. And that's why we would encourage institutions to build on layer 2s because you inherit all of those properties from Ethereum which is the most decentralized chain that there is and spinning up your own L1 is very costly. Not only is it costly, it's also takes a lot of time to become decentralized because the million validators or over 10,000 nodes that are

currently running Ethereum, in order to get to that level of decentralization, you either need to incentivize incredibly heavily, which is very expensive, or you need or you won't be decentralized. So the best thing that you can do is to leverage the existing decentralized chain which is Ethereum via a layer 2 specifically a roll up which inherits the security of Ethereum and you can have the customization the uh like whether it's regulatory compliance through uh security uh through privacy technology whatever it may be at the layer 2 but maintain that security of Ethereum.

Just to reinforce what you just said um a lot of L1 say they are decentralized but actually the governance itself is not really decentralized. So as you said number of nodes uh but who decide for what technical implementation etc. So that's uh very important. So u about L2s. So we have different type of L2s as you know uh better than me and um I think the issue over the last uh few years that um the uh alignment with Ethereum has been a bit um difficult. So at least uh what we try to do on the on the linear is really

to be 100% align with Ethereum. So the gas fees are paid in ease and whatever we do with the everything we do with the gas fees is to burn. So what we want to do basically is to give more value to Ethereum and that's the best way to be aligned with uh Ethereum. So and when we that's the first point. The second point is obviously um the difference between optimistic rollup and uh what we do on a linear which is automatization uh basically where you have the uh the fraud proof immediately on uh the main net and I think that's um also more

aligned with Ethereum because uh for finicians you can't just wait a week basically to get the uh the proof of uh what you uh you did on the main net. >> Yeah. Well, as you can guess uh for the topic of decentralization, I have a little bit a different view. So, if you say uh it's very costly to to launch a layer one and as you say it's very unclear how where where the governance is and how decentralized it really is. I think we just need to to look back where it all starts at Bitcoin. Yeah. And there was no company starting it. It was not costly. You

could run in run it on like two laptops can can start a Bitcoin network. Yeah. Uh and uh it's can be still similar today just you you have to do it the old way. Yeah. So you don't launch with uh a pre-sale, you don't launch with a premine. You you have a community of people and the network is owned by its participants. It's still possible. We we did it this way. We did it this way because basically our original blockchain was launched in the year in the year 2013 and back then this was the way to go. Yeah. And now this year like four years ago we launched the new layer one uh and just all a snapshot on the old chain and and all all the balances

existing in the new chain. There's no new coins generated, no coin sale at all. So it's following still this old logics. Yeah. And so there's no company you have to trust. There's people and the people make the decisions. Yeah. And this new EVM based technology also give us the ability to to launch a blockchain instantly with a DAO onchain where as soon as you start it the ownership of all the core contracts where all the core logic is in it is going into the DAO and it's absolutely decentralized.

So everything even there are some ecosystem parameters which are votable uh inside a range where we think it makes sense to move it around there there the the support isn't isn't needed that high uh to to uh accept the proposal but but then if you want to change make a contract upgrade or that like like 50% of the coin owners need to agree to do this. This is decentralization and there's no company behind it. There's no head developer with is hidden key who can upgrade contracts and so on. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Thank you. Switch gears a little bit. Uh I think there's some dividing lines here which is interesting to have uh different perspectives but from a user perspective they might not necessarily care about whether they're on a L1 what if they're on an L2. Um, but Matthew or maybe throwing it to Moner, you know, from a user perspective, they just want to be able to do what they want to do on chain, right? And, you know, trade, move assets around. So, how is that still as big of a problem as it maybe was a couple of years ago? Is in it's the interoperability problems. Has it been solved?

>> Um, absolutely agree. Like users also don't ask if it's React or it's AWS used when they go through any any regular app, web two app typically or even web three apps. So users care less. We're still in a phase maybe where users still think which blockchain is being is this is being used which how much gas do I have etc. But the infrastructure that's available today allow us to have a very advanced I would say abstraction layer like right now in our app in velour you can trade without gas at all you can also swap tokens from one chain to another without having even having to think much where is this token reside still there is some level of I think we

need to go further for where users don't even need to think let's say for instance stable coin they just need to think I have a $1 does it really matter for an end user is it like a USDC or USDT or anything else it's just a dollar in >> well it mattered when you had US US USD right >> yeah yeah yeah yeah of course of course but maybe this is also what we need to work for it's like maximizing on abstraction but underlying maximizing on security and decentralization is also related to security because sometimes we think too much decentralization maybe for the sake of decentralization but the initial thought like the the core thought of of decentralization is really providing a secure enir environment that anyone can use. This is really the the

objective of decentralization. >> Okay. Interesting. Do you have a any thought again? >> No, just from the user perspective. I think they as you said many years they don't really care whether if they are on Ethereum or somewhere else what they need is uh to go on an application and just to have a web two experience. And I so so far I think the we've made the huge progresses but I think we still uh there's still room for improvement from the users uh at the level of the the wallet for instance. So now we have a count abstraction uh like on metam mask for instance uh the gas fees we need needs to be abstracted as well that the first step then the the

bridge and the probably moner you're the best one to talk about that the bridge but we need um seamless bridges canonical bridges at the level of the protocol so that you can move easily seamlessly uh assets from the L1 to uh to the L2 and um and obviously security I If uh we all all on the same um uh network basically security will be shared between across all the uh those uh L2s basically.

But I agree. But this still uh assumes that you know uh Moner and his team has done the hard work of you know adding support for those those chains and so on and with more chains uh you know being launched. Um is that is that not a problem that you have to constantly catch up to the number of chains being launched? >> Yeah 100%. Uh that's why maybe I was having this biased view that we don't need thousands of of layer ones and layer twos because it's more work for us. But the thing is also the our approach is to make our protocol as a platform where others can build on top.

So the dream for me is like we don't have to like integrate each chain every once in there is to have us on the main stack for new chain. So you launch a new chain everyone it's like a lending protocol a DEX and maybe an aggregator like how we'd like to see oursel right now as like a best execution protocol. um that's maybe a more scalable than us as persons having to like manually configure every every every every chain. So, but yes, I think uh I I I hope that we won't have to get there to like just launch a new chain. I think it's always good to experiment and innovate because each time I see a new L1 there's always a new approach but maybe this is slowing down and if you're looking at the years like in the 2017 2018 cycle it was

launching a new chain something normal in the previous cycle launching L2 was something normal and I think right now launching a specialized chain became the new trend and I believe this is maybe the right path. >> Okay interesting helmet how do you think about this? you you you contribute to an an L1 which is not Ethereum, it's not an L2. Uh how do you think about interoperability with with other chains? >> Yeah, it's clear it's way more easy to secure uh interaction between or inside one blockchain and its uh uh layer 2 extensions than it is between different layer ones. Yeah, but you have to keep in mind what is needed to to make interoperability secure between layer ones is basically

the same. You need to interact with the real world. Yeah. Basically, you need a witness and validators. Yeah. And and a a consensus and a protocol which also acts decentralized similarized blockchains are doing it. So it's not one node, one infinity deciding this happened or not. So it's decentralized. Me many different nodes, many different entities have to agree it happened, act as a witness and and in this way you also can have safe interaction between uh real separate layer one block blockchains. And if you have this technology, you cannot only check out what happened on chain A and what should

happen on chain B, you can also check out what what happened on on the NASDAQ and the contract on on this blockchain can interact it to it. So you can you can uh really uh connect the world with the blockchain. If you solve the topic how layer one's talking with each other, you can solve the topic how the real world can interact with the blockchain universe. >> Okay, great. Um, Matthew, I want to come back to you because you're part of a team that I think is pretty new at the Ethereum Foundation, right? So, what's the what's the story there? And, uh, is is the EF really gearing up to be, you know, reach mainstream appeal really?

You're you have new leadership. You're taking a new approach. So how does that play out in your team? >> Yeah, so the enterprise team at the Ethereum Foundation is three coming up on 4 months old. Uh historically I would say the Ethereum Foundation wasn't necessarily engaging with institutions, enterprise, financial services or regulators uh particularly much uh probably in the goal of maintaining credible neutrality and being decentralized. However, if you are an institution that's going to tokenize billions of dollars on chain, whilst it is permissionless, and we all understand that, if I'm new to blockchains, you probably want someone to talk to on the other end of the phone when you're doing it. Um, and maybe touching a little bit

on some of those in like the previous round of of comments, do people care about what chain they're on? Well, yes, abstraction can take away some of that complexity, but of course people care what chain they're on. That's why Ethereum has over 90% of real world assets, the majority of stable coins, and the most total value locked out of any other chain. Not only do retail care about what chain they're on, institutions absolutely care about what chain they're on because if you're an institution, you have to understand your counterparty risk. And decentralization is a solution to that. It's a lack of counterparty risk. Now, there are nuances. There are tools that are required to make institutions

comfortable building on chain but of course institutions and people care where they are and that's of course Ethereum and the most secure chain. >> Can can I just add something? Yeah, >> I think the beauty of this is we have optionality like with web two it's either abstract or not like either we need to compile a software and run it on a on a local machine which is like something for for engineers but here we can want to know what's happening behind the hood under the hood sorry and we can like really understand and like have no abstraction at all as we can have abstraction which is something we don't have in the web 2 technology.

>> Let's see uh helmet jump in. uh regarding choosing on what layer one you are, I I think it's more important for project builders. Yeah. Because you you have to find out what what is your identity and what what you represent with your project and then basically you cannot build something on top of uh a layer one which isn't following the same few. If if you want to build something decentralized, then you need to also select something that is uh following the core the core principles of decentralization as written down in Satoshi Nakamoto's white paper. Yeah, I

I think uh we we we did split here as a blockchain community uh over the years uh and more and more it got forgotten why it was invented. Yeah. So there really the power and the control and the governance can stay at the people who just participate and operate the notes at the chain. Yeah. And if you have a project which is doing something which is also aiming for decentralization a local currency currency for your community or something like that or some some sharing project or whatever.

If it if it's something which which follows this uh philosophy and mindset, you should build it on top of such a blockchain. And then users are not choosing chains. User users are choosing projects. Yeah. Because you're not going to Ethereum because you're going to Ethereum because you want to util use this project. Yeah. You want to use this, you want to use this. Then basically the project select the chain where that you're using. And so for for the user perspective, he he won't care. He won't even see it. So it will develop in a direction that it's invisible. It's like like the jump from uh uh MS DOS to Windows when at MS DOS you you know each command you execute

each if you see each comment like a a separate layer one specialized on doing one thing. Yeah. Then back then you were able to see it. Yeah. But then when Windows were coming just the programs in in the background were just launched by itself. You don't even know which one. Yeah. And this will be the future of the blockchain of the interconnected heterogene blockchain also. Yeah. You you don't even realize on what blockchain the transactions are happening. The choice is taken by the uh by the project which layer one it did select to launch on top.

>> Yeah. again. But >> no, I just wanted to uh you're going to think we could work for the same company, but uh sorry again. But uh I want to talk about Eternal Foundation and what they currently doing. It's true that over the years there there was a lot of complaint about okay, what is their Ethereum doing? Why is the price of Ethereum still at $2,000 where Bitcoin is at 100K? And um I think it's because and it's great what you do now, Dave. um because people didn't really realize all the work which has been done to to develop the tech right so obviously it started with the the migration from proof of work to proof of stake that was the biggest migration ever um but so it was um there was a lot of u work the community of uh builders I

don't know how many people half a million a million of developers are contributing consensus have been obviously contributing a lot over the years if you remember I'm old enough now you remember if you were back in 161 17 we uh was fighting against fabric cord all those technologies who which have disappeared obviously now we see more um kind of L1 or owner networks like cont and again those um private initiatives are taking a shortcut either in the centralization or SCability or um of the security. So there always one uh one

step one thing missing. But what's interesting with Ethereum is that we are level we are now at a level of maturity where financial institutions uh can are feel more comfortable with Ethereum. >> Yeah. >> And you can may have seen the the announcement at Cyos in particular with us that um all the >> so what kind of discussions are you having at the moment? I mean I understand you can't share names but what kind of new institutions or new organizations are you talking to that we haven't seen come on chain yet >> so maybe u you will comment as well but uh I think the um what they want financial transitions obviously is privacy so that's still something we

need to work on that on Ethereum and there's a a lot of developments um I think they want u to be interpable 100% with Arium, but they also want to be uh to have a kind of permission KYC as well. So they want to be permissionless permission in a way. So um and they they want probably to manage themselves a sequencer of uh of their own chain. So we have uh on linear for instance fin will some of them will probably not deploy on linear itself. Uh that's what you were saying before but it will use the linear uh stack. So what we do everything is open source. You can take

a paste and copy of our own chain basically and launch your uh your chain and implement additional features um like a kiwi permission etc. So that's I think the the strength of uh our chain. >> Yeah. Thank you. I I just so sorry I keep driving at this point because I think it's interesting for the audience to think about why you know traditional institution financial institutions choose to launch an L1 versus launching an L2 and you Matt you mentioned cost um for launching an L1 you mentioned permissionless versus permissioned access and so on. Are there any other uh you know in that decision matrix any other considerations that they make why someone might launch an L1 versus

launching an L2? Um, frankly speaking, I think that the token and the capital uplift potential of an L1 at the moment in the mind of investors is significant. So if I launch an EVM, >> I guess Stripe doesn't really care about that right now. >> Maybe. I don't know. I maybe let's see but in the mind of investors an L1 has a bigger narrative than an L2 and I think that that is attractive for an initial launch. If I launch an EVM compatible L1 um then that sounds more significant

than launching an L2. But there's a reason that all of the new L1s are EVM because if they want to, they can very easily migrate and become an Ethereum L2 and continue with the customization that they have. Um, but I think that by being an L1, you also have some other considerations where you can be essentially more centralized to have um, let's say more throughput or more control over the chain. Um, and so it depends. I think there's both a business and a technical uh reason to do so, but it's still new and we'll see how they develop.

>> Yeah. So, the the EVM point is of course very interesting to think about. You know, you all kind of represent um the EVM in some ways. Um DMD Diamond is EVM compatible. Um but Moner, maybe you can shed some light on this. What what's what is it like working with nonem compatible chains and you know, how painful is that for you and the team? Well, the thing is we don't uh like we're not live on a non EVM chain although we have studied some like Salana and Bitcoin as well um with two different worlds and also it gave us like a fresh perspective on how things work differently because we were only on the EVM like we put big bet on EVM which was a rational bet because like the flow

and users and everything was happening was happening there. um building on BTC I would say was the very hardest thing to to to do ever because we had to not only get around the technical limitations of the Bitcoin itself but also like try to navigate this I would say political and controversial I would say um world in the Ethereum sorry in the Bitcoin community for like what we think are not rational because like we see some highly potential improvement that still will maintain the Bitcoin uh blockchain secure but extend it. So we enable like building real things on top of Bitcoin which was something that we

ended up just keeping as a P at the end of the game. Um, we like the Solana and Sui ecosystem because they try to follow the Ethereum footprint and try to build something useful and also accessible to developers which was surprising to me because the the narrative in the previous like few years was like if you're not on solidity on AVM you're not going to make it because everyone is working on on solidity and is the easiest thing to do and building on Rust was something like very hard to to achieve and which at the end reversed the the story and became like a a a a parallel I would say world to to the EVM space and now we see more convergence like just yesterday unis swap launched on on Salena in collaboration with the

native aggregator which I think will be the go-to I would say playbook that will be following once we launch on other non EVM chains because it's simply very very hard to like rebuild everything from scratch but we can build on top of what others have built. >> Yeah. And do you think that's a sign of the industry maturing, you know, not choosing to build? >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. >> And it's also interesting to think about, of course, Uniswap has a very strong brand and and even in in the Salana space, they would be recognizable. Okay. So, we we're coming towards the end of our uh panel, which has been been great, but just want to take sort of a look ahead uh to 2026.

What what are you most excited about? Maybe starting with you uh Hermit. >> Yeah. What are you most excited about in 2026? >> Um I I think uh the year 2026 is the year of uh interoperability. Yeah. So I I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. Because that really opens up uh the possibilities uh for all the separate blockchain now to to be one interoperable heterogene blockchain base layer. Yeah, basically all all the layer ones are the base layer where the the blockchaindriven future is built on top. Yeah, I I I think in it will start next year and it will improve the years

later that people no longer talking about Ethereum or DMD diamond or or other names. They're talking about utilizing blockchain technology. Yeah. And and it's more a topic for for the the developers to to choose this or that or or some some marketing team. We say this this is fitting our our vision of what we want to be as a company, what our product should represent. Maybe then you should choose the proper chain to build on top. But but for the normal people, it will be just blockchain. There will be there will be more and more uh uh like uh wallet solutions which are supporting nearly all uh uh uh

big uh blockchain solutions and and holding the keys there. Uh so uh really interoperability is the point of 2026. I'm looking forward to it. >> Great. Thank you. Man, what are you looking forward to? >> Definitely long interrupt as well. It's something we highly believe in. Also, uh end user dabs that are more mature and more looking like traditional apps like Robin Hoods of the world. But also as I said before uh we abstract but we also always we give optionality to end users.

So I think this will be the key differentiator for for web 3s. >> Matthew >> um I agree with interoperability. I think it's incredibly important. But there's an abundance of block space. If all block space was created equal, then we would see it evenly distributed across chains. It's obviously not. So interoperability between chains, but each chain has a specific purpose. So the layer 1 is security, layer 2 is a scalability, and the interoperability there is the native and canonical bridge. That's the security because if I have assets on a layer two and it is um a roll up then even if that layer two is

faulty if there's censorship if there's any issues with the sequencer I can withdraw my assets I can force withdraw my assets from the layer 2 by interacting with the layer 1 smart contract and then the second thing interoperability absolutely is is huge but the second thing is I think the move from pu uh private chains to public chains enterprise has been experiment experimenting with blockchains since before I was even in the space and there's clearly a shift from private to public instances because just like internets are no longer really around and everyone is on the internet public chains with with open innovation and with essentially all of the users and

liquidity is the real benefit of blockchains and that's why institutions are coming to public chains like Ethereum like linear and if they need privacy, if they need compliance, then there are solutions on top of that that they can leverage, but there's certainly a shift from private to public chains. >> Great. Thank you, G. >> So, just for not only we are metam consensus meta consensus metam mask you may have seen that we've been shipping a lot over the last uh there's no one week without an announcement. So, uh, we're launching BERS, we're launching indexes, we've been launching Metamascoin, um, we've been launching Metam Mask rewards, the more things to come. Uh,

Joe made a few announcements. That's for Metam Mask. Uh, for the for us, it's continue with our technical road map. uh next few weeks we're going to be stage one according to L2 bit uh ranking probably in Q1 um level stage two which is the highest level of compatibility with Ethereum and I think this is just going to prove that uh this is a safe place for all institutions uh going forward >> great any any final thoughts from anyone we covered it all well it's been a fantastic panel um building across L1's and L2s. Can we give it up for Moner, Matthew, Helmet,

and Gon? Thank you very much. >> [applause]