Is Blockchain Still a Revolution or Becoming Another Upgrade? Ep.621

Transcript

When I think about say cippher punk, when I think about decentralization, I'm more focused nowadays on the chains themselves, the protocols that the the the real inelimable core as I like to think of it of of cipher punk is primarily to be found on the chains and that's where it really matters and then you're probably fighting a losing battle if you want every application, every uh doubt to have that same degree of commitment to these traditional values. I think those days might be uh coming to a close. How do we stop web 3 from merely becoming an infrastructure upgrade for Wall Street?

>> I think we've seen a lot of this. I think that's already happened. If they understood more the level of microtargeting and corporate surveillance that's happening under the hood, I think people would be more worried about it. Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Frederick Ans and today I'm speaking with Paul Dylan Andis who goes bipolar on Twitter and Nick Almond who's also super active on Twitter. Um Paul is an independent crypto philosopher um and a lecturer at the College of Business at University College Dublin and Nick um thinks very deeply about governance and other

aspects at um the GTO network as the head of governance there. And today we want to be having a conversation whether we might have to adjust our intro in due course. So is the blockchain revolution really still a blockchain revolution or is it becoming an upgrade for more legacy players? Um before we dive into it, we'd like to tell you about our sponsors this week. >> This episode is brought to you by Nosis. Building the open internet one block at a time. Nosis was founded in 2015 and it's grown from one of Ethereum's earliest projects into a powerful ecosystem for open userowned finance.

Nosis is also the team behind products that had become core to my business and that of so many others like Safe and Cow Swap. At the center is Nosis Chain. It's a low fee layer 1 with zero downtime in 7 years and secured by over 300,000 validators. It's the foundation for real world financial applications like Nosis Pay and Circles. All this is governed by Nosis DAO, a communityrun organization where anyone with a GNO token can vote on updates, fund new projects, and even run a validator from home. So, if you're building in web 3 or you're just curious about what financial freedom can look like, start exploring at Nosis.io.

>> Hey Paul and Nick, super nice to have both of you on. >> Hia, nice to be here. >> Cool. Um may maybe for everyone who doesn't know you kind of who doesn't um spend as much time on Twitter as I do um c can we get brief backgrounds of who you are, why you're here, and what you came for? >> Um yeah, okay, I'll go first. Um yeah, so I'm I'm a physicist by background. I was actually an academic for a good chunk of my career. I sort of sailed from physics through to learning theory and governance research over about a decade or so. And then in 2020, I jumped into crypto full-time. Um, because I was obsessed on Dows and the what wonderful

things this technology could do for the world. Um, and I worked on prediction markets, Dowo tooling, and now sort of govern a large DAO in the Salana ecosystem. >> Cool. Thank you, Nick. It's it's interesting to have a fellow physics uh physics PhD on on the show. Um just just mostly for my benefit tell me tell me what you did research on. >> Um I ended up doing a PhD in biohysical surface science. So I was interested in um I was working on sort of photonic probes to try and understand how biological molecules and biological systems ordered at surfaces. So I was very interested in yeah the emergence around like how life started, how sort

of self-organized systems begin in biological systems, that kind of stuff. That's fascinating. Um it's also not that that much removed from governance and kind of like how it is. >> I think I um um yeah, I got very very obsessed on uh complex systems and self-organization. Um yeah, for the last 20 years or so, it's been very much a there there's there's a lot of parallels >> 100%. So I did my PhD in lowdimensional complex quantum systems which is actually by it's actually pretty it's actually somewhat similar to what what you did. So kind of like I mean work on surfaces and kind of uh I did >> um I mostly did um carbon nanot tubes

and graffine and kind of like these sorts of systems. >> Yeah. So condens condensed matter physics then basically basically I did simulations and experiments. So it's uh yeah >> lovely >> super cool. Um Paul, um we we've kind of bypassed you so far. Um but I'd also very much like um a a a short intro on you. I think many people will recognize you from uh from uh Twitter as Postpola. >> Yeah. Uh it's one of those situations where um I've reached a point where that has become my name in real life, even at conferences. Um and by the way, uh P is uh Paul in Irish. So that that's where

the the origin of the name. Um but yeah, so uh a similar situation, another academic. So my PhD is in philosophy. So uh I guess the other side of the that spectrum. So the the physics, the materialist, the philosopher who's uh maybe in the clouds a little bit. Um and then uh really I was interested in crypto before uh I got involved in terms of writing about it in an academic context because I had friends who were involved in Wikileaks early on and they were telling me about you know Bitcoin uh the embargo that made me curious and then I heard about Silk Road and uh I've always had this attraction to countercultures subcultures that kind of

thing and then I never thought about it of being something that I would write about in a academic context and then just by chance I saw a job ad while I was doing my bits and pieces of teaching across Dublin. So I was like teaching philosophy and theory and so on. There was a job ad for a blockchain researcher at the university I am now. This is 2015 and uh because nobody else in the country was really uh had a PhD and also an interest in crypto uh I got the job. So um so I was just kind of lucky and then since then I just said okay this is a unique opportunity I'm looking at a research area where there is nobody else really working on it or you could count the amount of academics at that time on one hand um so yeah and

then just ended up writing oped articles and then accidentally my my Twitter account which I don't really understand its popularity as such kind of took off uh as a my student one of my students called it a micro influencer so which I quite like. I like that too. Maybe you should get a t-shirt kind of like micro influencer. I I think that's uh um yeah, I think kind of like there there's um you already kind of led us um into um why we're having this episode. So you said kind of like you you were always interested in counterculture and kind of in a way kind of the crypto ecosystem is very much um shifting out of that niche.

I would argue that that segment of web 3 is still there, but it's becoming increasingly marginalized. So if you look at a lot of the things that currently happen on web 3, it's more or less kind of technology being appropriated by the incumbents to kind of increase their efficiency. um rather than kind of turning this agency and ownership narrative into a reality that a lot of us kind of came into the space for and kind of I want to explore with you guys how you see that um how dire you think the situation is whether it

can be turned around and if so how um maybe I'll start with you Nick because kind of like you've you've written about governance which is your core focus as the soul of crypto, right? >> What values do you think it was meant to protect? >> Yeah, I think so. I was um super obsessed on governance um in my academic career. in fact decentralized organization in particular. Um so I I kind of built a decentralized organization inside a institution as a means to help the academics self-organize around improving the

university and kind of got pilled on that and realized that decentralization and decentralized organization was a was a powerful force for good in that it sort of um distributed power more evenly uh across systems at scale. Um and then when the sort of DAO happened, I realized that you could like really scale decentralized organization. Um and it was a potential real force for good in the world because I I see a lot of the um frailties if you like of the conventional governance order is due to centralization. There's you know power concentrates around a very small amount of people um that limits decision-m capability. decision makers get

increasingly divorced from reality and people that they're governing. Um, and that was 20 years ago or 15 years ago and it's way worse now. So, I was kind of hoping that this would be a a huge force for good in the world. Sadly, we haven't really focused on governance as an industry yet. I think it's one of the it got very lonely uh in the bare market last time round sort of still being a believer in Dows and decentralized governance. Bit sad that it's not really manifested as yet as a kind of broad influence on on conventional governance systems. My sort of belief was that, you know, crypto would um almost by like osmosis

um influence the global world world order by just like distributing decentralization around the world. And yeah, it's I've got both kind of optimistic and deeply pessimistic views of where things could go based on um how things might play out. Um and yeah both of them involve like crypto and blockchain as as like potential um accelerators of that if you like. >> If you look at governance um in particular um it it is one area that kind of we were extremely optimistic about in the past. Um kind of uh and I mean we we were we as Nosis were up

there with kind of the the the best of them and the earliest of them. Right. If you look at DX DAO for instance, which was possibly the one one of the very early kind of actually um Dows that actually kind of governed um a protocol um and then um you look at the DAO infrastructure um that kind of we've seen over the years. So kind of in a way kind of I feel in 2017 2018 um thoughts on how DAO should work were actually way more advanced than they're they're actually today. So kind of if you look at for instance the DAO stack um uh protocol kind of they kind of like I mean it was founded by uh two physicists so of course I liked it but kind of it

was it kind of like it had very good mechanism design in terms of um realizing that attention is really the scar resource and kind of you you need to make sure that you can't um spam the Dow and kind of like if you look at how governance plays out today for the large Dows it's mostly backroom Telegram groups that kind of where where kind of you don't really have access to um if if you kind of just come in and you and then kind of like deals are negotiated there and then kind of the the the the um a lot of the votes are actually just kind of are foregone conclusions because kind of like they've already kind of been negotiated in some back room Telegram tenets, right?

>> Yeah. Um I think so. So yeah, we I in many cases both in things like token economics and governance there was a much more advanced thinking um or or rather the the thinking that was sort of deep and interesting was more prevalent in the space at that time. I think pro maybe an equivalent amount of it exists. It's just diluted by you know the rest of the industry. But also I think there's the reality of um governance systems is exactly what you described is that we have this lovely public mechanism that we should be using but the reality of it is people don't want to use it because it's public and they want to conduct things in backroom Telegram channels because it's easier.

Um so yeah just the reality of the way humans interact with technology they're kind of sociote techchnical systems. So what how a technology is used is only really manifested as people start to use it. Um and that's the kind of reality. Um humans don't tend to behave in the way that you want them to. Um and so we we kind of built these quite idealistic mechanisms assuming everyone would like conform to the mechanism when in fact you can just choose not to use the mechanism and work around it and people will. Um so yeah I think there was a um you know I and and largely people at large just haven't done much governing right it's it's not you only get into

governance if you end up kind of super senior in a in a large organization um or you go into politics or something right and like 99% of people just are not in that position so it's really quite an alien um sort of thing to do and I That's been one of the really large challenges is that um yeah, people just don't sort of tend to want or know how to govern stuff. Um so it's just a there's a big distance between people and the and the tools. Um I think um but I'm still optimistic we'll close that gap, but it it's it's um it's it's definitely one of the most difficult things that you can work on. Um and just

so the other thing is it's not easy to productize. So the kind of contemporary paradigm of technology is you kind of hyperfocus on a very specific niche and then extract rents from it and build a very tight revenue model out of it. Whereas governance is completely context dependent. So you just can't build a really tight neat product out of these things. and it and it's um that's just made it very uninvestable for the most part over the last sort of several years. Um so we kind of got a bit stuck. I think >> it's uninvestable but kind of like full Dows that actually have treasuries. It's also extremely important, right? So kind of like principle there should be funding for this because misallocation

of funds is is such a huge risk for these Dows. I I would very much take the position that having some level of transparency um and also um the ability of new people with new ideas kind of enter into an ecosystem openly and being heard that that's really high value. But one belief that a lot of people I think mistakenly hold in the space is that everyone's voice should count equally. and kind of as as someone I mean maybe this is this is um somewhat arrogant um but as someone kind of like who's built mediumsized organizations before and kind of whose

voice usually carries a lot of weight having people come in and expect to kind of be given the same amount of reverence or kind of attention it it's it's sometimes jarring right because kind of like I I want to appreciate um people who come in and kind of people who kind of bring opinions and uh and want the seat at the table because kind of obviously you need fresh blood, right? Kind of like this is why you want the DAO. This is what kind of like what can elevate Dows into kind of this paradigm shifting mode of organization kind of akin to kind of like when we got

um joint stock companies or something, right? Um, but at the same time >> it not everyone in a DAW is created equally and I think that's that's I mean obviously should you should be able to kind of move within that framework freely but it should it it should be in my eyes extremely meritocratic. >> Um couldn't agree more. That's very much what I've been kind of chasing for many years is um that paradigm like exactly how you can shape um a consensus by um by merit. So um yeah I think this there was a we came to this with these very um idealistic framing you know there was a

lot of the early Dao thinking was um very flat or you know we want to get rid of hierarchy completely we want massively open porous organizations you know um and the reality of it is that's a terrible idea there's it's just you can't um there's also a sort of feature I call the public governance trap which is if you do everything completely open, um there's always someone hanging around who's going to just nitpick on absolutely everything that you're doing in public. Um and it just creates and I I know this because I've done this for like over the last 5 years, right? when I used to do we used to have team meetings like openly on Discord and

everyone would just you know and you'd have like 20 people just sitting there watching you not saying anything and it just it changes the dynamic for how you make decisions right and and this was a time when you're like you know this was a quite risky thing to be doing in in terms of like global regulatory sort of environment and things like that you know dynamics changed a little bit be like who are these people makes you more guarded um you know, it's it's difficult to make good decisions in a radically open context like that. And then occasionally you get someone who's got nothing better to do who will just hassle you all day every day, but they're like don't know what they're talking about. And that's just not a tenable sort of system for

for for governing sensibly. Um, so there's a middle ground somewhere, right? Where you need to have decision- making, you need to have a path that for people to walk into an organization and be elevated into a position of status and power if they are capable of doing it and have a material influence over the project and be rewarded for their participation. Um, >> that sounds almost like a company. A company is kind of like an interpersonal fiction, right? Kind of like it's a story that kind of we as humans kind of tell themselves. It's nothing you can kind of It's nothing you can touch. It's nothing that's physically there. It's just kind of like a set of ruins.

Exactly. That >> like a legal fiction. >> Exactly. It's a legal fiction. Um so um and in some ways kind of it it was it was created to kind of do a lot of the things that you just talked about, right? Kind of like to allow new people to kind of come into it and kind of like if they're useful, they can kind of rise within the structure kind But it's still seen as kind of like one large entity that kind of like acts as an entity and so on. Um how um kind of like if if you look at kind of like the kind of a an idealized um corporation that kind of is where there's no politics and there's kind of like it it's purely meritocratic and kind of has a strong leadership and

vision and kind of but is fully permeable. How would that differ from kind of your ideal vision of a DAO? >> I think there's a few sort of key differences. Um, I mean, for one, these structures are very centralized, right? They're very centralized. They adopt this very sort of pyramidic structure of power. Um, and they start to degrade in um, effective function as they scale very big. >> Are we talking about Dows or corporations here? >> Corporations. Corporations. Large large centralized. I mean the same is sort of true >> true for I mean it's kind of it kind of uh >> that's so my theory on this is that largely we've projected the and I think this is back to your central point of

this episode right which is largely we've projected the old world onto the new so a lot of people rather than try to explore this new paradigm of decentralized organization we've just effectively tried to rebuild centralized organizations in in this new world right so um like really if you if you look from a governance perspective like like Max Weber's sort of bureaucracy theory of bureaucracy has like revolutionized the world's organizations over the last 100 years and it's created these kind of like um very hierarchical structures um and and in reality the they're not that meritocratic in the end right the the theory is they're meritocratic but actually um the people that end up at

the top of these organizations stay at the top of these organizations whether there should be there or not. Finances tend to be very untransparent, right? So the the radical differences in Dows is that we have this um people can contribute to the organization and um there's a degree of consent um that spreads out across every participant which is also not the case in in conventional structures. Um so it's it it's somewhat subtle in a sense but a a decentralized organization is more about local autonomy. Um centralized corpse are more um oppressive generally right the their systems of power in there with

managers who enforce people to you know codes of conduct and and contractual form. Um and it's and it's trying to find a new organizational mode that deviates from that effectively more about radical local autonomy um distributed decision-making where in theory people at the lowest levels of the organization could influence the global structure which is tends to not happen in um more democratic if you like. >> Yeah, I I hear that. Um Paula, you you've been pretty vocal about crypto drifting towards copyright cooperization. So kind of um uh and would you apply that to kind of um the DAO landscape of cryptonative projects

or would you um apply that uh predominantly to kind of um web 2 um players kind of coming into uh crypto new? >> Yeah. Um, so I think it it's really a story about um it's actually an old story, you know, geeks, mops, and psychopaths as the the old article goes that you you start off with this culture which is at least when we think about Bitcoin, it's a combination of libertarianism and cipher punk. So we we have these this very unique mix. That's actually really the story of why it kicks off. It's it's the fact that it's cipher punk and libertarian. Um and then over the years we we drift into Ethereum

land and Ethereum in the beginning actually isn't a cipher punk I think as people you know tend to talk about. Um but uh like if if Ethereum inherits anything it inherits cipher punk and basically drops the the libertarianism at least in the the Bitcoin gold bug kind of variation on that. Um and then uh there's a a little bit of an issue when it comes to Ethereum culture which is that it's not quite clear what Ethereum is for. So, it's a big question mark in the middle. The the white paper tells you that it's uh it's, you know, it's not like it's it's going to be a general purpose blockchain. So, you can build whatever you want on it. So, you know, essentially it's it's for anything. Uh which is great. That's a

pluralist perspective. And then that's where we get all of our different narratives. They're actually really often technical narratives. Dows, DeFi, NFTts, prediction markets, I guess might be uh the current version of this. Um but that question of say what is Ethereum for has always been a little bit unclear. Uh and then okay maybe we could say things like uh uh decentralized accelerationism uh network states that's like the the attempt to answer the endgame social question of like what the Ethereum society is for. And I think that that's worth mentioning because if you compare it to what the Bitcoiners believe they know what they're for. We're going to transition over to hyper bitcoinization.

The fiat system is going to collapse. then you're going to live in the citadel, right? That's that's their uh vision for society. Um whereas knowing what you end up with in Ethereum is a little bit more uh a little less clear. Uh and I think over the years this has led to people becoming more pragmatic. So in Dows, you can actually see this. So in Dows, um so every decision has been made in the Dow before anybody votes. So that that's something I think that's something I always tell my my students like there's never a decision made in a Dow that hasn't already been backroomed before you get to it. Uh and there's a lot of insider dealing and pressure.

It's a soft pressure I would say like a social pressure uh to kind of conform with the the group and then also the the fact that foundations stick around. So the like the the company progressively decentralizes but they're uh usually the the foundation is kind of like the surveillance state of the of the the company in the form of the transition over to the community or something like this. Uh and then you also have the the founders themselves the team having huge amounts of tokens. So um and uh I mean this this doesn't really surprise me in the sense that the in terms of cultural evolution because more and more if you look at what I call the CTVC podcast industrial complex or sometimes I call it the block works

extended universe. So this is let's say people who've emerged into crypto. So they're emerging into say Ethereum culture or into Dowo culture but they're from the business school. So they got a business school kind of mindset. are primarily interested in markets and prim primarily interested in uh uh like the like what's happening in the previous week not what happened 10 years ago what happened five years ago um and they're they're forward-looking as well which can be quite good uh but they are generally speaking post ideological so one of the terms that I took from one of their podcasts this is a term that they use themselves like not as a critique that I'm giving post ideological pragmatism um so effectively just looking at the it's not really important

whether Ethereum is more decentralized than Salena. It's whether people's perception of Ethereum being decentralized matters relative to whether it matters uh to say to someone in Salena that it's centralized or decentralized. Like it's it it becomes uh a part of the market discussion. It doesn't actually matter as a value or an ideology. So um I think we're we're we're deep into this like we're we're maybe a lot of people haven't accepted this that this this transition has happened and so cipher punk and the values of cipher punk like decentralization permissionlessness credible neutrality etc. This is a minority sport and it has its representatives but actually the representatives have even themselves

given way uh to to a certain extent. So we think about the transition that happened with the Ethereum Foundation. So there's a basically a populist revolt from you know people who want ETH to be the primary focus uh who want um the Ethereum Foundation to be more hands-on. So not the Ethereum Foundation should subtract or disappear or be decentralized but should take over should be like the the entity which uh directs Ethereum going forward. Um the response to this was essentially to bring pragmatism front and center into Ethereum in the form of uh like a a kind of jewel dual approach uh where a dual power approach. So you've got Tomasism, Dankratism as I kind of think of it the

pragmatist approach and then say civil culture council vital uh defi punk representing the OG part. But I think that was an admission that the culture is sort of this dual uh complicated situation. Uh and maybe it will work. Uh so one way that I think it can work is that the pragmatists are probably the people who look at the the near term. So they're thinking in two three years that can be a good focus and then the uh cipher punks are are thinking in like 10 year uh terms. Um and then the other question, yeah, is whether whether these values I guess are supposed to be also found in the Dells themselves. Um I'm not so sure. So I am more and more inclined toward when I think about say

cipher punk, when I think about decentralization, I'm more focused nowadays on the ch the chains themselves, the protocols that the the the real uh inelimable core, as I like to think of it, of of cypher punk is primarily to be found on the chains. And that's where it really matters. And then you're probably fighting a losing battle if you want every application, every uh Dow to actually look uh to to have that same degree of um uh commitment to these traditional values. I think those days might be uh coming to a close. I mean decentralization um to me as someone who's been in this um in this space for a really long time decentralization itself

is not a value. So to me it's kind of like what it empowers. So kind of the the fact that kind of you um uh can have permissionless innovation. So kind of say you're on base kind of um ultimately you are at the mercy of Coinbase, right? kind of like and this is kind of like they run the sequences so can they can cut you out. Um if and kind of like same goes kind of like if you build an application on that, right? So kind of so kind of the fact um usually kind of decentralization is not something um that you need in an everyday situation. It's something that you need in a crisis. So kind of you don't need it until you need it. you don't need it

until someone kind of shuts down um your AWS server or kind of unbanks you or kind of does whatever else kind of like um centralized entities can do to you and your business offering. Um and kind of the the decentralization kind of um uh kind of fosters the resilience that underlies that. At least that's kind of that's my take. Um, and I think um there's now kind of these um kind of some of the um the second group that you kind of talked about kind of within the Ethereum Foundation um kind of there's a lot of people who kind of almost um uh um kind of almost uh uh are in this as a

cargo cult. So we're kind of kind of decentralization is kind of the the one thing that matters and I would argue there is such a thing as decentralized enough and kind of like how what level of decentralization that is very much depends on what it is you're doing. So kind of like if you if you kind of have onchain Candy Crush probably don't need a lot of decentralization. If you have your identity onchain your reputation and so on should probably be very decentralized. Um and I think it's a spectrum right and I think um kind of uh having this um almost um uh purity trial like um uh mindset where you say oh this

is not decentralized I mean it it kind of it depends what you're doing with it right kind of like it's just like um um I am adamant that um my car has uh better security than my bike does because kind of I typically drive my car faster than I ride my bike. Um, and if I kind of uh don't wear a helmet and I kind of crash in the park on my bike, probably I mean the the the kind of the the the potential spectrum of outcomes is not nearly as bad as if I were to kind of crash my car at 180 kilometers an hour on the autoban without wearing a seat belt. Right.

I um jump in there. I think um there's different lenses on decentralization. I think I think um it's absolutely true that we've moved from a almost an extremist view of decentralization in the early sort of era of the I think you know the sort of first era of the industry was basically you know it was all Bitcoin and um post Ethereum sort of second era we we hit this very ideological position of decentralization. And I saw people making, you know, completely onchain to-do lists, you know, and it was even even with, you know, low gas fees, it was like 50 bucks to use, you know, make a to-do. Um, and we we discovered that,

yeah, with this kind of like onchain everything decentralization, maximalization sort of stuff. Um, it just didn't work because it's completely unfeasible um that everyday people would a pay for it and accept the UX pain points for it. Um, and I think we're moving out of that now. I think there's a kind of um pendulum swing like revolt against it where you know now we're starting to get people to say um you know forget it altogether no one cares right and there's the problem is is when you swing that way um the failure mode is that um something disastrous happens right I think we saw this with like FTX um where you know who cares about

decentralization anymore um let's just give all all our money and put it in this black box and and trust this guy and and we saw what happened very publicly when when that happened. In fact, that whole sort of explosion in the last cycle was largely just due to centralization. It was just due to poor trust models, people putting their money in centralized boxes. So, I think we've we've seen firsthand why it matters, right? And why why where it matters. Um, and there's there is a kind of philosophical dimension to it. Um, in the DAO world, we were talking earlier about what's the difference between corporations and Dows, and it's largely it's about more bottom up approaches rather than top down. That's a philosophy and a value. I think that

does manifest in decentralization. It's just generally about distributing power more widely. I think the world needs that. Um, but it is, as you say, is it's a just good enough kind of paradigm. Like one of the things I'm trying to push out at the moment I call governance realism, which is like let's use the things for what they're actually good at rather than presume this DAO can do this stuff that it can't. Um what is it actually good at? It's not necessarily good at making complex decisions. Um you know, is it basically a multi-IG? You know, let let's really look at um brass tax what this thing is and what it's good at. Um so I think yeah I think it is that pragmatism. I think there's also

as uh Pola was saying about the sort of MBAification of a lot of this stuff that we're starting to see you know the revenue narrative revenue meta as people are calling it is you know picking up a lot of lot of steam. So I'm hoping we find a kind of sensible middle ground rather than just this massive p pendulum swing the other way and we just stop caring about decentralization alto together. >> Yeah. just on that uh yeah so the reason why I think like considering a value is sort of uh important so like political decentralization as opposed to say architectural um is is because of that threat there there are people who quite clearly and I've you see this on Twitter in that MBAification

kind of school of podcasting where um like centralization or like decentralization itself is like up for debate as in like it's not that important um and I think the like this idea of realism is quite important because my like my thinking on decentralization is it's uh to distribute power as widely as possible. So as as much as you can is sort of the value or principle that the crypto community goes for. So when we're talking about a chain, we want it to be uh like truly polyentric, right? We want Bitcoin and Ethereum to be multiple decision-making centers that take each other into account where like no decision can actually be made without basically convincing all of those parties very slowly over the course of say months. Uh we actually have an

example of that in Bitcoin at the moment between Bitcoin core versus not which is actually a really nice example of populism versus expertise and so on. Um but I do think that's that's uh so like I would say like decentralization uh as much as possible uh begins then to kind of soften a little bit when you are talking about say applications that are built so you want say fileverse to be decentralized as much as possible but I don't think people should be policing say an application built on ethereum as harshly as say the the the uh consensus like onchain consensus itself. You know, >> Fiverr actually does a really good job in kind of um uh kind of having having um almost web two like user experience

and still being fully decentralized and end to end encrypted. So kind of I'm I'm a I'm a dieh hard stan. >> Yeah, me too. >> We're all we're all followers. >> Yeah, we're we're all on side there. Um yeah, I mean it it shows you that a world of software like that can exist, right? it it shows you that you can have um this kind of stuff can be realized. You can make a good application that um protects user privacy um data sovereignty all of this sort of stuff. And I I think we just need to see more practical real world use cases land for people to really get why it's important.

>> Do you think they get why it's important without anything terrible happen happening? So kind of like if you look at if you look for instance kind of like um at a web two example um so if I look at my non-crypto friends almost everyone uses Gmail right despite the fact that proton mail is much better for you it kind of it protects your your your data and your privacy and it's kind of it's functionally equivalent. So kind of there's no big kind of user experience drop off and still people don't mind being data farmed by Google, right?

>> Yeah. And it's it's crazy. I mean like terrible things happen all the time. I mean, you know, they I think it's almost worse than that in that people are so used to having their information um on the dark web and that they've just given up. you know, it's like almost everything that you almost all data that's put online ends up being hacked. And I think we're almost post people caring about that anymore. And um they've sort of capitulated to it. I think the scary thing is we're kind of close to something terrible happening, >> but it's more than to kind of just threat actors, right? kind of like you're giving your data willingly to kind of the the the five corporations whom it's impossible to kind of bypass

on the internet. So kind of like if if you kind of actually made it a challenge for yourself, how do I do anything on the on on the internet without acrewing revenue to Google or um Microsoft or um uh or AWS um it it's impossible. You can't you can't you can't do anything. >> It's very difficult. Um, I lost a year in a Dow a couple about three years ago trying to ungoole. It's a nightmare. It's really really difficult to to separate yourself from these entities and and largely people just I think if they understood more the level of microtargeting and corporate surveillance that's happening under h under the hood I think people would be more worried about it. But do you think

people don't know? Because kind of like I think kind of I mean we've had kind of like the entire Cambridge Analytica kind of fiasco come out and kind of like but we're outraged about it for a hot minute and then they went right back to using Facebook. >> It's way worse now. >> There's a a really nice uh Xia quote. It's like they they know what is happening but they are doing it anyway. So like that's that's modern ideology. Like you know exactly what's happening but you just continue to practice is like the nature of contemporary um ideological life. So, how do we get people to care? Um, h how do how do we get people to kind of um embrace um the in my in my eyes incredibly appealing kind of core tenets

of web 3 as kind of they emerged kind of like in in the early 2010s. I mean, it may need I think we're starting to see um a fair, you know, fairly public um revolt against things like CBDC's and digital ID. Um there's very coordinated global um strategies converging on very like extreme surveillance practices. um >> and kind of like I mean are you are you guys in the loop with chat control kind of the EU magic >> it's terrifying and kind of they are voting on it um next week or so on so on October 14th so kind of like by the time

this episode um has come out um that the vote will be there um and as far as I know kind of there are quite a number of of uh of states who already said they will vote in favor of it and currently it kind of it hinges on Germany whether they kind of um vote for against this. And I mean basically what what it entails is kind of um it it it basically um builds in a back door into every communication channel and and kind of bestows access to state actors um on um on unencrypted uh uh un encrypted messaging. And I mean it's it's it's terrifying. It's terrifying. And there's you don't see a lot of it in the

mainstream press at all. It's um I mean we have the equivalent in the UK the online safety bill um which explicitly has a carve out for exactly chat control like functionality. Um the danger is they're being very overt about what it's for. Um you know it's the it it it'll it will allow the intermediation of all communication by the state. Um, and I think this might be the thing that that changes people's attitudes about the requirements of things like privacy and decentralization. Um the question is is do does it need to be installed first and for people to be oppressed by it and

for it to backfire and um you know ordinary good people be targeted by the state through surveillance and by by mistake getting rounded up into um you know um for people to start getting seriously worried about it um or will people realize beforehand? But eventually, you know, they will realize and it it's just a question of like will can we do anything about it beforehand? I mean, I I don't know like this is the this is what's worrying it. It it's it's kind of scary.

I've been one of the things I realized um after a few years of research into these technologies is that oh actually these could be used for really terrible things. Um and specifically in the realm of digital ID um you know the convergence of that and blockchain is like deeply scary. You you can build very scary systems using this kind of stuff. Um the affordances we understand around token gating and permissioned access and things like that that as it embeds into society is really really scary. Um >> it's like social sporing on steroids.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean um we've we so certainly in the UK there's there's actual policy emerging. There's a campaign that was launched by one of our MPs called we'll take away things that you love. Um and it was explicitly talking about um targeted sanctions on people such as like we'll stop you from going the pub or getting on a plane or going to the football match. It's a social credit system. that MP is now the home secretary and we've just announced that we're rolling out digital ID and in fact we're forcing everyone in the UK to adopt it. Um so essentially revoking people's citizenship rights the right to live and work um and unless they install

unless they participate in and adopt this technology. This is happening. I mean we we're just there. This is the thing that we've been worried about. I was talking to Polar about this the other day. These are the things that we've been theoretically worried about in this industry for many years, but it's happening at an a scary pace at the moment. I'm really quite worried about it. >> Yeah. It's kind of like the the the dark version of the it's happening kind of like guy getting >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, just on this uh I mean this is one of those things that I think is like really like the heart of what crypto culture is really about. It's um and going back to that quote that I I mentioned there from Xjac like the the idea of they know what they're doing but

they they continue to do it anyway. I think that that's true of people in society. They they they they know that these like the I think at this point even your uh like not very technical mother or grandmother maybe grandmother but your mother might have like even some sense that like the phone is spying on them, right? Like everybody kind of knows this. That's general knowledge. it's not some obscure uh privacy nerd uh thing that you you know that that people used to have. Um and there's there is a a sense in which I don't think you can really always what one of the things that is maybe difficult for crypto people to accept is that and this is something I've argued before is crypto is a subculture that can't accept it's a subculture. So it it always has this idea that it can be the savior of

everything like we're going to solve x y and z like sometimes very dramatic uh expansive areas of society that we're going to you know suddenly uh find >> you don't think that's going to happen. No, no, no. I think we we have a cap, you know, like uh and I think I think actually I'd say now we've kind of learned that lesson maybe like maybe this is the time that we've learned that lesson a little bit. And then there's also another part of this where it's like they know uh what they're doing, but they do it anyway, which is us. Like we ourselves use web 2. So we're on uh Google Docs instead of Fileverse. We're on Twitter instead of Firecaster. So like why would anybody use our apps if we ourselves don't use them? So like we're just as bad, you know, it's just

at a different level. we do use like kind of like sending and receiving assets and uh using per so I guess we are a bit more crypto but not by much uh so I think that that's a part of it and there's a a quote that I like from Neil Postman he says uh the clearest way to see through a culture is to see through its uh mode of communication like what medium does it use and I think you know our obsession with like X like reveals uh a lot about us which is that ultimately we are just kind of like our ultimate desire is just to kind of communicate with like-minded people about this very obscure uh a technology. Um and then uh one other thing that I just wanted a couple of other things.

One is the UK is the the crypto marketing department. So we we we can kind of rely on them with their uh increasing uh bobbies turning up at your door. Uh you can't have a beer if you say X Y and Z. Like this is actually the thing that could radicalize normies. There's nothing we could do that could ever be uh better propaganda than just allowing a government to become increasingly authoritarian. That's and we're going into that age. This is the dystopian apocalyptic reading of crypto I have which is that the way crypto succeeds is that essentially things go so bad that people suddenly realize the importance of like non-state digital currency etc. So uh in a way it's an accelerationist argument just allow the society to collapse and we'll be fine.

>> Yeah I um I I hear that. I also think it's hilarious that apparently the worst thing you can threatening threaten an English man with is you won't be able to go to a pub. >> I mean, take away footy and pints is the is the thing that's going to start the revolution. I mean, crazy. Um there's also um a slightly less dark but in my eyes still pretty dark um uh future where um web 3 is not uh primarily appropriated by state actors to kind of ensure um uh absolute compliance with stupid rules

they kind of arbitrarily set. um but um kind of extractive incumbents appropriating uh the technology to kind of do the extracting they already do um in a more concerted and efficient way and I think kind of like this is what we're currently seeing with um the revolutes and stripes and uh Robin Hoods and so on moving into this space. Um, so how do we how do we um how do we stop web 3 from merely becoming an infrastructure upgrade for Wall Street?

>> Um, I think we've seen a lot of this. I think that's already happened um over the last few years. I think, you know, instead of, you know, again, in my early crypto idealism, I saw utility tokens as being a real thing. you know, these like digital assets that mediated access to decentralized systems and had a use within those systems and um opened up new kinds of incenting incentive engineering capabilities and uh and actually we just use them as a form of non-dilutive equity. um and largely, you know, the amount of this. So, you end up with this dynamic where you've got um quick liquidity and a and a game that's largely, you know, pre-market and post market and the

private market took over. Um and largely that has manifested in a case of um yeah, private equity game but worse, right? Because what we've had is people just like accumulating tokens in private markets from directly from founders and their proprietary deal flow and then a token launch which allows them super quick liquidity some like sub six months sometimes. Um and the retail market just gets butchered every time and and that's just what we've had for the last few years. So a that's already happened. Um but yeah, there's the whole new realm of that when we've got, you know, these massive corporate actors have just been

waiting in the wings like, you know, the likes of Google, Stripe, um all of these lot um and yeah, they're just setting up their own L1s and you know, and and I don't see this as good for Ethereum and um or good for the industry at large. Um I think they've just been waiting for the right time to come in and plunder everything. So I I I think thinking more defensively and cautiously about this is probably a good idea at this point. >> I mean I think kind of like part of part of I mean I I would very much take the position that kind of like we can't stop kind of Google from uh launching its own L1 and I mean who are we to do that? Um but we should make sure that the L1s

that kind of you want to build on are not Google's L1. And kind of like if if you kind of look at their press uh release kind of like when when when they kind of announced it um it it said kind of we're launching an L1 so that there'll be credibly neutral one that other people can build on. It's like do you guys understand what credibly neutral actually means? So it's um uh how how do we um how do we sway people entrepreneurs and builders um into the right direction? kind of how do we make them see the light?

>> I I don't think you really you there's no way you can really force the these things. Uh this is um I think uh it's it's the nature of the culture where you just have to hope that there are there are enough of you who are interested in these traditional say cipher punk values. uh say crops is one version that I've heard put of a um uh censorship resistance uh open-source privacy and security or so defi punk all these different kind of ways of thinking about it uh it really comes through just the practice of people attending uh conferences giving the talk and sort of stressing these values uh and one thing I will say about this is you can you can actually get surprised so the recent trend of mer and zkash and sort of zolana all these things that I never

would have expect I'm giving a talk on Friday to the Salena super team about cyberpunk uh which is something you know uh if I just listened to kind of crypto Twitter I never would have thought was a possibility like that they would be interested in it and so it is just a consistent application of people talking about the ideas that that that uh secures it because I don't think you can really resist them at any other level we can compete in markets uh we can compete in the technology but that's like a it's a complicated story that most people aren't going to get and it doesn't matter it doesn't m matter because they'll just use your term anyway way even if they're exactly they'll just take like credible neutrality and say okay well that's um uh uh term and you know they'll use it in some very

ambiguous way uh in terms of the this is but there is a bit of a deal with the devil situation when it comes to the institutional adoption so people want ETH to go to 10k they know that the way in which this happens is going to be on boarding the institutions but you know one day you will wake up and essentially the institutions will be in this very powerful position um and I in a in a strange way I think that this might be a good thing. So what I think is maybe the the great reminder or renaissance of traditional values of like what exactly a blockchain is or what what credible neutrality is will only come about when we get a situation where some institutional player uh maybe like a Tom Lee gone rogue actually try to in some way interfere with say Ethereum

governance or else we just have some kind of bug or you know something like strange happens uh which requires a uh state of exception. like a Bitcoin civil war hard fork type situation or the Dow. Um, we haven't had one in such a long time and I think that's probably why a lot of the the younger people are simply unaware of the the structure and why the structure is in place. So it may require a little bit of the um like maybe the the best way we can do this is sort of push ourselves closer and closer to the institutions until something uh causes like forces a little bit of a a battle so that people can see why it's important to be decentralized or permissionless.

>> That is quite accelerationist. I think I think um I I think I said this the other day we can't stop them but we should be thinking of counterattack strategies. Um, and the thing that I'm most worried about is, you know, these incredibly well- capitalized players just poaching all the talent and there being a kind of massive brain drain uh across the industry where everyone just works for a bank. I mean, like the the most tragic end to crypto is all the cipher punks work for a bank in the end. Um, and so yeah, I mean, like we need to um be doing something about stopping that from happening. So I I I think things like the finding ways to um like we need we need to find what those apps

are, you know, we need a lot more file verses. We need a lot more like real world applications. We need Dows to start hitting mainstream and solving real problems for real people in real communities um that aren't in crypto. I think we need to start looking out into the world and and hitting adoption vectors that Stripe won't do. Um, and we need to be funding it. We need to be like raising Dows and and like locking in the talent. Um, and making sure it's very difficult to and it's going to come down to money like um making sure people like taking the at the moment there's a lot of people who will end up working for a bank because they're poor, right? And and that's one

of the things that I think um we need to get better at as an industry is like supporting independent developers, grassroot applications um and like real world use cases that are outside just basic payments. at the moment it's just payments infrastructure um that's rapidly accelerating in that um and yeah I think we need to start working like um I sort of got a lot of stick for defecting to Salana after several years of uh Ethereum but Salana's like more of a uh more aligned than you might think like um like Polaro was saying the cipher punk mentality is there um I'm trying to push them into uh adopting a

values based governance system at the network level at the moment. It's we need to start thinking more as an industry about there is a you know we've been having these kind of internal microculture squables for many years between different blockchains um and even L2s within Ethereum and stuff like that and it just doesn't make much sense. I think we've got there's a there's an ab abstracted value structure that sits at the at the level of of crypto that I think is somehow we need to find the kind of unite the tribes if you like across the across the crypto industry. Do you think that even sorry >> just briefly ask like I do think like cipher punk is kind of the unifying principle of of crypto and uh like one

of the one of the jobs that we have in that that battle is to to keep using that term to keep using those that that terminology because nobody else will use it for us um or if they are using it they'll be using it in that sort of like credible neutrality but not really kind of way um but yeah I think that that's uh yeah so like we are more similar than we think and we we need to get to that that mindset at some point. I I I am 100% with you that kind of like this tribalism and kind of interfaction waring that that's it kind of like it just creates a lot of um friction that's ultimately a unproductive and b trans people like like nothing else kind of and um but I wonder um how much is the

decentralized nature of cryp crypto kind of working against us here because kind of like people are somewhat um reticent or kind of resistant to kind of having um one kind of one kind of leadership figure that kind of speaks for a united ecosystem and kind of speaks for cipher punk values at large. And I think kind of like this is also something that that kind of Ethereums have felt over the last couple of years kind of with respect to Solana, which I think is also why Sulana kind of rankles the Ethereum uh the Ethereum people so much because Sana kind of has a much um more vocal and centralized leadership um that in

some sense kind of is the voice of Sana and kind of does the kind of marketing that the Ethereum Foundation doesn't do and that we don't kind of has have as an overarching um structure kind of across all um layer one ecosystems. How how how do you think do you think we can get to kind of like a um consensus figure um that everyone can kind of rally behind? Um that's a really interesting question and I think that like a lot of the wrangling against the Ethereum Foundation um last year earlier this year was um almost a um it was a

reflection of looking at the likes of Salana which had a more unified voice and I think they were said like we should be doing that you know and um so I mean nothing about decentralized systems says you shouldn't have leaders like there's like they I've heard the term they're they should be leader full not leaderless systems as in what a good decentralized organization system would do is elevate good leaders. So like find ways of discovering people who um can lead people and the sort of leadership paradigm I see is what's like if management is effectively about control and conformity leadership is about

follow getting people to follow you with soft power right so there's there's nothing around like influence through um just by adopting a leadership position is exactly the kind of thing that we need to be elevating people towards. boards, right? Um it's what isn't congruent with these systems is people being forced to do things, right? And and it's that kind of um so I think there's different ways into this. I think yes, you can elevate more leaders um um across the industry that are good ones. We went through a phase of elevating absolutely the worst people in the industry to almost like godlike status, which was um disastrous. So we

need to find people who are like genuinely represent the industry, the best of the best if you like in uh and that represent what differentiates us from um from and and embodies the principles of the of the technology and what we want to see in the future. But also I think we just need better social consensus machinery. Like one of the things that um I got very excited about Dows is that you could use things like voting systems. uh and this gets more possible with things like AI Dow crossover stuff of synthesizing the views of many many people and and actually you know innovating in sort of democratic tooling which is one of the things that I found very exciting about

this industry and its potential to do is democracy in the conventional world is like failing you know um representative representative democracy um and things like you know is leading us down into chat control you you know, and like um so how do we find better systems for genuinely connecting with people and having them influence the system as a whole? I think that's that's what we need to discover. May maybe kind of a final question kind of kind of kind of uh uh building on this. So in a way kind of um philosophically we kind of think about people as unhackable and kind of I think this is also what kind

of a lot of the governance mechanisms that kind of we've built in the past kind of um uh kind of take as a prerequisite but we have seen that people's minds are supremely hackable. So kind of I mean we we just talked about the microtargeting that kind of like all our data um allows kind of to kind of to happen right how is is there a shift needed in how we think about people's minds and I think maybe this is this is a question for polaro >> yeah um so this is one of the the debates that

I've been seeing from the the Block Works expanded universe, my my friends over at Block Works, um where they had this idea uh about Tom Lee recently and like how this is this debate that's kind of really in my mind lately as very instructive of the current culture, post ideological versus traditional cypher punk. And the idea was that uh say someone like Tom Lee could come in and hire various different devs. you know, we we saw the the report the EF uh like the uh like Ethereum core developers and how much they're making and how how distant it was from say uh just being on the open market. Um and so uh I think from their perspective they are thinking in that kind of way that we're probably entering into a world where with enough

resources you can essentially buy people regardless of values you could maybe even shift culture over time. This is something actually I think is probably the secret uh danger of the social layer of governance is actually just the idea of why bother with any kind of attack just simply seed new core developers over a 10 20 year uh time frame uh who aren't cippher punk and now Ethereum is no longer cippher punk. So um like I do think that this is like a yeah the the ultimate frontier the great repressed uh of like uh you know can a blockchain truly be say credible neutrality or permissionless and so on uh so long as it has an open governance process which is populated by people who themselves can be hacked culturally over time. So um this is why I think that that where

you get to the importance of the the polyentric uh or non-monocentric was actually a term I heard someone use instead recently just meaning that there are multiple decision-making centers uh that are supposed to take each other into account. So if you're trying to take over Ethereum today, you know, you you've got to take over the ACD call, right? You've got to somehow get Tim B uh and you've got to like flip him. Um you've got to infiltrate the Ethereum Foundation. You've got to think about the the independent researchers. You've got to think about uh the cat herders. Um you got to think about the Ethereum Foundation itself like trying to flip now two different sides of it. The pragmatist side and then also like uh Vitalic and Shahei etc. Um and then you also need to think about the the

infrastructure. So RPCs, Lido, Rocket Pool each of which have their own sort of mini micro culture. um uh famous figures Kobe and Hassu like those those kind of figures as well would have an important sway I imagine um but then even beyond that right you've got the client team so they are all working on different client uh software so you've got to hope that all those teams will flip as well uh and then ultimately the probably the the the reason why we we could do with a a state of exception a Dow hack a bitcoin civil war is people need to see the idea of the power of the the full node as the the last defense because at that point you are talking about the ultimate uh bedrock of cipher punk culture that if you're running a a

node right a like you're a non-economic node as the bitcoiners would call it so you're not doing it in order to to be a validator etc like you are a pure true believer and that's a group that's distributed all across the world to me that's the so that actually is the real essence of the social layer that is the the cipher punk bedrock of Ethereum um so the way that I would be thinking of countering this is what we need to do is we actually should be thinking about more distrib distribution uh and getting across to people the importance of just how uh everything ultimately comes down to the uh the polyentric nature of the system and uh making it so that like you can sway some parts of the culture uh but that will take you a long time and then you to get another part it will

take you more time. So now the the proof of work or proof of stake at the social layer is actually time itself and uh you know you're kind of making it uh expensive culturally for somebody to flip you. I I think that that is brilliant. It sort of look at how the crypto is actually more resistant to these kind of like mind um viruses that can take over people than potentially the real world system. And I I don't think there's a government in the world at the moment that's not scared about a populist uprising like with um you know attitudes changing radically because of social media. Um, and yeah, I I I think there's this is a very real concern, right? And

I think it's one of the reasons why we're seeing um, you know, a real rise in in online censorship because they're worried about um um, you know, effectively populist uprisings by things just like ideas going viral and people's minds being hacked and so on. Um, and I think there's like crypto potentially has a space in this. You know, we sometimes refer to this as epistemic tooling. Um but things like prediction markets and um you know decentralized sense making systems and and stuff like that have a real potential to to add a layer of um um polyentric decision making that can lead to good decisions.

Um that's one of the things that I think uh we should be focusing on as an industry to to to actually influence the world in a in a good and good way. If if each of you could kind of um uh could suggest one way kind of we as kind of players in this ecosystem can improve on the culture or the per kind of permeating the culture further. H how how would you suggest we go about this?

uh I I think the the the most important place at the moment is the the conferences and the events. So if you go to say Dev Connect or you go to ECC etc. um then you know you're more and more going to encounter people who are new to Ethereum uh maybe new to Salana whatever event you're at and you can't presume the familiarity with say the the the the values the the importance of cypher punk and so even though it it's sort of like even though uh it's kind of boring if you're giving a talk and you're talking about cypher punk and you look out in the room and you see other people who obviously know about it, I still think

it's really important to to run through it for the the benefit and the service of the say uh small part of your audience who came who are fresh and new because uh the way that I I've tried to think about this recently is uh yeah if we don't say it nobody else will. So it it now becomes more and more incumbent for for those people who are uh who go around and give talks and even if it's just like a local event to uh ensure that these things are actually mentioned and to not presume them. Um so yeah giving talks uh if you are thinking of getting into giving talks uh uh uh promoting that and then also the the promotion of the apps I think is going to be inc crucial thing. So Ethereum's big focus recent years all the infrastructure and in many ways that the

the Salana issue plus the the revolt against the EF is also about the the the lack of focus on apps that we we have this we had this uh hyper emphasis on the layer 2 road map and then say uh beam as it was called at the time uh where you're thinking in 10 years and people were like actually no we should be thinking in now uh and what people can use at the moment. So yeah, the that that idea of like promoting file verse uh promoting Farcaster I think becomes uh a small it's a small thing but it's these the these uh add up culturally over time.

>> Okay. Beat the beat the drums we already have. Um is is Polar's kind of advice. Nick, what's your what's your advice? >> I think we need to go to um real people. I think we need outreach effectively. Um there's a magic moment that um I certainly experienced when first discovering this technology that was um this kind of hopefulness about how this could be used used to like make things better. And I think um and then experiencing several several waves of being completely jaded as as the reality of the industry sort of beds in as as you learn more about it. Um but that moment is still waiting for people out

in the real world. Um and a lot of the times right I think um we need to be um going out to real people and and explaining why these technologies are important and developing real use cases that can improve their real lives. Um, I still think things like Dows and social coordination tools um are what could enable um real grassroots communities and empower them. Um I I still do a bit of teaching work at the architectural association in London, which is taking it. I'm trying to basically dowill people in the real world. It's very challenging, but it's incredibly interesting to see um real everyday

people like understand what is possible here. Um and I think we somehow need to like do that more at scale. >> So, >> yeah, let's go to the normies. It's time to we we are an echo chamber. Um and like I think two sides of the coin there. Polar thinks we should make sure the inner chamber if you like stay like it stays on message. Um but we need to be taking the message outwards at the same time. >> Fantastic. >> I think in this regard uh so just in this regard uh Jesse from bass who gets a lot of uh abuse for going out there like he is actually doing that which uh he shouldn't get as much abuse for trying to go out and talk to people I think uh about these things.

>> Cool. Thank you both for coming on. Um, we'll uh we'll uh include uh your Twitter profiles and where else to follow you um in the show notes. It's it's been an absolute pleasure. >> Likewise. Thank you very much for having us on.