Bitcoin's macro role and the case for Hyperliquid: 21Shares' Eliezer Ndinga

Transcript

April liquid has a chance, if done right, to be able to be the second largest cryptocurrency. >> The Federal Reserve has hiked interest rates and Bitcoin responded with a billion dollar ETF inflow day and a breakout into a technical bull market. Is this a fake out or a breakout that signals that new all-time highs are on the way? Hello and welcome to Milkroad Crypto, the show that knows that don't fight the Fed is good advice, but Bitcoin is going to Bitcoin no matter what happens. I'm your host, John Gillan. Today is Wednesday, September 23rd. And today we are joined by Elizer Dingga. Ellie, as he's called, is the head of research at 21 Shares. He actually founded the research team there. Last time we had him on was back in June. And he was talking about how Hyperlid is going to become the second most valuable asset in crypto. So, we're

going to catch up with him about that, about a lot of other things about 21 shares recent earnings report. There's going to be a lot of alpha in this one. So, if that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe. Share this episode with somebody who's going to enjoy it. As a reminder, our podcast today is free and that would not be possible without our wonderful sponsors at Nexo, the digital asset platform that lets you earn, trade, borrow all in one place. Keep an ear out for more information on them later in the episode. But for now, welcome back to the Milk Road Show. Elizer, how are you, >> John? Thanks for having me. This is great to be here back. >> Uh, I'm really glad to talk to you today. This is our first conversation, but hopefully the first of many. Um, I

thought a good place to start this conversation would be get your perspective on what we've seen in the macro landscape. The Federal Reserve raised interest rates. Some people think they might raise them again. And at the same time, Bitcoin is breaking out into a new bull market. What's your read of this macro landscape for Bitcoin and and why has Bitcoin suddenly gotten so massively bullish? This is a phenomenal question and one of them that we have 21 shares as one of the world's largest ETF uh issuer of crypto assets uh has actually received all the time about the correlation between the macro and and of course bitcoin as well and what we've seen is really interesting because I think for the first time in bitcoin history uh we've seen a very strong macro trade

when it comes to the overall uh currency debasement concern that we've seen over the last I would say especially couple of months uh when essentially the uh you know treasury department has actually indicated that they will actually buy a lot more uh of these uh you know US treasuries uh which definitely concerned over the overall value of the dollar despite the fact that this is the world's reserve currency. So we've seen actually investors quite concerned about that. That's why you've seen of course a higher correlation between gold and bitcoin which is quite unusual because usually gold and bitcoin actually perform in a very different way uh over the last I would say eight years or so and I spent about 11 years in the crypto space and interestingly there's a higher

correlation between these two uh and the reason is because uh in this frightened uh and you know I would say fragmented environment uh right now the micro landscape especially on the back of the Iran more investors are actually looking at an allocation diversifier um away of course from uh major currencies that would be uh impacted by you know the Iranian conflict but also the fact that they need to diversify the portfolio. So gold and bitcoin actually have been part of the conversation and also reflected in the inflows that we've seen in these bitcoin ETFs. So year to date combined for crypto ETFs in Europe for example where we started at 21 shares we've seen

well over $ 1.5 billion dollars in inflows year to date uh and well over $2 billion in inflows in the United States of America which shows again that there is definitely a pentup demand and a need uh for this asset class but usually the sizing of these investors quite of a small uh small allocation between one to sometimes even 3% of their diversified portfolios uh among equities and art assets and and of course bonds to uh diversify with with crypto as well. So I do I do think that this is good news uh because usually people think that when there are higher rates as we've seen historically uh this punishes the

performance of bitcoin uh but right now uh there is a structural difference compared to the last I would say three and three three and a half years thanks to the spot bitcoin ETFs in the US and of course where we started in Europe at 21 shares since 2018 where investors are able to invest directly uh through their you know bank and and and brokerage account into crypto. And I would say the last thing that really benefited um the inflows in these ETFs is also the fact that unfortunately for many victims impacted by you know the cold card hack and some of these AI enabled hacks that really resonated for some investors to also invest uh directly into these crypto ETFs so that they don't have to handle uh themselves the private keys

under the mattress as well. So these are some of the two structural trends that we've seen on the back of the uh you know fiscal debasement uh and the concern over I would say the depth levels uh in the US and the fragmented world that we've seen especially after the the war between Iran uh started uh and then of course uh the technological concern over uh potentially some of these uh AI enabled acts as well. >> Just want to pause for a quick second to remind you all that the crypto bull market is back. I have been deploying capital into altcoins that I think are going to do very well this bull market.

Some of them are already up over 2x from where I entered. So if you want to see what's in my portfolio, what's on my watch list, and have access to me in Discord to ask questions 24 hours a day. Join Milkroad Pro now. The link is in the description. It's just a dollar. I'll see you there. I've heard you say this in the past as well that Bitcoin is behaving less like a speculative risk asset and more like a global macro hedge asset. Um, and I think that that framing is really helpful and it'll probably continue to evolve. But I think that's just important to call out. Um I want to talk a little bit about the ETF landscape and ask your thoughts on the evolving altcoin space here because now that the SEC has these sort of generic listing standards, um Eric Balcunis, uh

from Bloomberg said that he expects there to be over a 100 new crypto ETFs launched in the next year because of this, you know, regulatory change that we've seen. And I'm curious your your outlook on this landscape. Do you think we're going to see this huge explosion of products and sort of what's your strategy for navigating that that changing landscape? >> Our our strategy hasn't changed for for 21 shares has always been researchdriven and fundamental driven when we're looking at this asset class. Of course, eight eight nine years ago. uh we were really in the early innings in the beginning of the DeFi summer and what's possible with you know smart contracts platforms uh and whether the onchain finance world would have product market fit uh but clearly now it's not a

question of whether we could have products it's actually a matter of when and then which products would make sense on the back of our investor demands and of course our strategy is very simple looking at the fundamentals of these different protocols especially the ones that do have ready uh data that we can analyze looking at the revenue, the margins, the users, uh the developer adoption uh their classification as well. Um I was on a road show uh in uh in all over Europe for the last couple of weeks especially uh southern Europe and what I've seen is that the questions are still the same around even the classification of crypto assets. Many investors still think that they are all currencies. They're actually very

different from one another as you know right there is hard assets like gold such as bitcoin and then you've got you know venture capital type of platforms such as hyperlquid or etheana and then of course then applications built on top similar to like a PayPal or Venmo or WhatsApp that could be built on Ethereum Solana or even hyper liquid itself. So investors really have to start with the classification of these different cryptocurrencies um because they're not actually currencies trying to disrupt the dollar. Uh some of them are just trying to be the next PayPal or the next Swift uh or the next Venmo. Um and these are major differences. Um and that's why we really start with the fundamentals first, the

classification uh the uh underlying data sets to analyze I would say typically the earnings of these different protocols. But unlike traditional companies, we don't have to wait another quarter uh to get the data sets. It's in real time thanks to the transparency of blockchain technology which is really powerful. So our strategy hasn't changed. We always really stay true to the fundamentals and the data and that's why we pioneered it data ourselves uh and then really check with our investors if of course this is an investment case uh that they are interested in uh to understand the potential size of the investment opportunity. Do you think that this like let's say influx of new products coming to market is going to sort of like split

the capital that's already in the space or do you think it's going to be a sign that a lot more capital overall is going to come into these ETF products and into crypto and just like what's your read on that outlook as as these new products come to market? Do you think that brings new capital with it? >> I do think that it would depend on where the investors are in their journey in crypto. um some of them are very early um and do want to just get and tip the dip their toes into this asset class and they would start certainly with a majors especially Bitcoin um as a major allocation and then moving to potentially a Solana or an Etheim. Uh but we've heard a lot of hyperlquid of course hyperlquid launch uh in May this year um of course thanks to 21 shares

launching the world first hyperlquid ETF in the US but also last year in Europe as well and we've heard of course that as a very simple and easy to use uh platform investors really resonate with the hyperlquid uh investment opportunity so I do think that it would depend on the investor type and their risk profiles um there are areas where you could see investors already invested in for example an Ethereum or SA could definitely allocate into like a hyperl liquid or even looking into over long retail assets if that makes sense for the fiduciary duties but um I would say that a great tide lift all boats so I wouldn't expect um I would say significant flows into the deep longer

tail assets uh but definitely a lot more flows into the majors and that's exactly what how you're seeing it in the ETF flows you know the major flows. The majority really comes from Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, and then fast forwards to to the to the rest of the world, including the hyperlquid. Um but again I would not dismiss the fact that simple and easy to understand investment cases with real cash flows and evidence that these are great investment opportunities uh could help investors to allocate significantly more uh for the ones that are I would say more uh you know risk-taking type of investors so like the hedge funds the highet worth individuals um or like single family

offices for example so that's why you've seen a very uh important success as for the hyperlquid launch um or even as recently the Zcash launch as well. >> Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. No, I think that that focus on fundamentals definitely makes a lot of sense and I do think the industry is beginning to move in that direction overall. So, these are all positive developments. Um we've talked about Hyperlquid a couple times. As you said, you guys were I believe the first to market with a Hyperlid ETF. Um I assume that's going quite well cuz everything Hyperlid related is going well. But I'm curious your an update on that thesis for you here. We're we're sitting a little bit over $90 on hype around a $24 billion market cap. How much more room to run does this have and and where do you think we are in the I

guess the the growth and adoption of Hyperlid as this quote unquote everything exchange thesis starts to play out here? It's a phenomenal question because the last time I was on the show with you guys, uh we discussed about the case for Happy Liquid and I was discussing about the fact that Hyper Liquid uh has a chance uh if done right uh to be able to be the second largest cryptocurrency or crypto projects or financial product in crypto um after Bitcoin. And I think it's possible by that time we didn't have uh essentially an understanding of whether and when hyperlquid could get into the US market.

Uh but today it's very clear. Uh so they partnered with a parent company of Kraken called Payward to be able to offer uh in a regulated way by the CFTC access to perpetual futures for all financial assets including crypto, commodities, uh preipos, etc. which to me is really uh one of the hurdles that they had to get to to be able to understand the uh valuation premium that could justify that multiple that they have today. It's a multiple of over 30x uh to to the gross revenue that they're making. For me, I'm really excited about that because Hyperlid has been able to build a product out of necessity. And we know that products out of necessity with

essentially the product market fit um really helps investors to understand that blockchain technology is not just about speculation is also for example like Bitcoin and macro trade as we discussed but also like a platform um similar to let's say like an interactive broker to access all financial assets and hyperlquid in June what we discussed was kind of like this offshore global protocol but not accessible to US persons for regulatory reasons. But now actually thanks to regulated businesses uh in the US, they can use the hyperlquid H IP3 or API as I like to call it for traditional investors uh to

be able to offer in a regulated way these perpetual futures. So futures contract with an expiry date. And I think this is really powerful. Um of course competition is here. You know, last time we talked, we didn't have the CME coming into uh the market with 247 uh you know, perpetual futures or futures for crypto as well as you know, commodities. Ever since the CME launched 247 for Bitcoin, Ethereum and Salana, I believe, and also for for gold as well. Um so I do think that there would be this hyperlquid effect that would force traditional players to come into the space and also offer uh similar products but there are two pathways either they're going to build you know from the

ground up and uh hire blockchain engineers and building a similar infrastructure as hyperlquid or leverage a hyperlquid API HIPP3 markets uh to be able to get to market very quickly for their uh very own customer base. And I do think that the latter has a great chance to happen uh given the flywheel effect of high liquid revenue tied to of course the token buybacks and the token burns that makes a very strong case for the investors to to hold uh uh potentially the the asset itself. So that's why for me um the the the thesis hasn't changed but some of the risk factors that we discussed uh some of them are seem to be mitigated uh thank to this partnership with pay/cracken

which is quite exciting. >> Okay. So the thesis is still there. Some of the risks are let's say diminished in your mind or or a little bit in the rearview mirror now. Um but it seems like the competition piece is still to be figured out. And I'm curious your thoughts on that because we're going to see competition from, you know, digital asset native products like lighter and and others. Um, but we're also going to see, you know, the CME and, uh, like Trady um, potentially launching these things and just like a whole, you know, I think the word Cambrian explosion of of Perpetual's products is going to come into the space. How do you see that playing out? And how do you think about this in terms of like what products 21 Shares wants to bring to market for for its customers? because I know a bit wise

for example launched a a lighter um uh ETP. So um yeah I'm just curious your thoughts on that landscape and and how to navigate that. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean for us we always you know pay close attention to the fundamentals and and of course hyperl is the market leader in the perpetual futures uh for decentralized exchanges. I believe their open interest today is at an all-time high uh well over $18 billion uh which is really unprecedented. Um, and I do think that competition is here to come. The same way we've seen a Cambrian explosion of Bitcoin copies and forks from Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Gold.

You heard about that? Uh, same for Ethereum as well. Uh, we've seen less for Salana, but you could argue that there are many layer ones trying to be better, faster, cheaper than Ethereum 2, including the Avalanche of the world, etc. So I do think that there's a market actually for these different platforms. But one of the things that is very different from general purpose layer ones uh unlike the hyperlquid case and infrastructure is that liquidity begets liquidity right. So essentially if we want to if you want to see large trades and large adoption in a significant market um the traders and the professional firms are going to actually pay more attention to where there's uh some you know market liquidity and

market depth uh for for some of the largest trades especially when there are heightened geopolitical conflicts after market close and there is nowhere uh in the world except on hyperlquid or any of similar platforms to trade uh over the weekend. So that's why we like to call Hyperlquid the the Google of you know uh price discovery when it comes to all financial assets uh 247. This is actually the Google effect. Uh and the Google effect shows that um especially when you take the traditional analogy of Google itself. Google was not the first search engine. I think it was number 20 21st. Um and they were more before including Mosaic and and others in the early 90s. Um, and I do think that it would be the same as well for all of

these different perpetual futures uh platforms and even traditional ones in crypto like conveys and um as well as crypto.com do have their very own uh versions of perpetual features and even prediction markets. So where hyperlquid would win is not just covering and owning a specific vertical with perpetual futures for all financial assets but it's also to diversify the exposure to digital assets right so becoming this super financial application that can cover spot trading derivative trading with perpetual futures and also having options and event markets and that's exactly what they're doing right now when when you

look at the uh product road map and innovation And this is where I could see uh the upside. But in each of these various verticals, you know, from spot to derivatives to prediction markets, they are of course significant players across the board from Binance to Khi and Poly Market etc. So uh of course competition would be there. But what would matter is if investors feel comfortable to use the application, right? So if you're able in the future to recommend an application uh to you know expand a pie in crypto uh people usually recommend like a conveys if people want to actually pay a coffee worth of bitcoin right um and I think like the indicator where um conveys or

any traditional players could lose market share around like the spot market could be like if they start to recommend decentralized venues which is quite unusual because people usually recommend like a conveys I even recommend ETFs as well. Um but I do think that um competition is welcome and for us on the back of our you know product strategy of course we're always paying close attention to the fundamentals and most importantly what the investors want uh to understand the uh market opportunity for us in all the markets where we're able to service it and working very closely with the regulators.

>> You know one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it the more accounts you seem to end up with. You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else, and if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep. That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo. These guys keep the whole thing under one account. You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell it. All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo. So, if you need liquidity, but you don't want to give up your position, or you're already holding crypto and you want to be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time. We love working with them. I think you will,

too. Telemilk Road sent you. >> I really appreciate the thoughts on this and the the the view on the perpetual space. I'd like to hear your updated outlook on the layer 1 wars which um you know you said liquidity beats liquidity. Uh Ethereum has been the the number one for a long time but I've had you know Raul Powell on the channel advocating for SUI recently. Kevin Olirri has been making a lot of noise about Avalanche. I'm curious if you have any latest like thoughts research around you know the wars between the layer ones. who you think is is winning if there is anyone that's winning in your in your view and just your updated outlook on that space.

It's a phenomenal question and if you want to understand where the layer ones would win in the equation you have different variables and these variables in my opinion are the number of developers um on the infrastructure side. Um and then most importantly the retention and the growth of the users uh that translates to trading volumes for stable coins to trading volumes for different kind of asset pairs etc. For me these are the two most important ones to consider uh to understand the success rate of these stable coins. Um and uh of course they are vibrant ecosystems with

developers. At the end of the day if you're building an application and you're a business let's say you're like WhatsApp on on day one. Um of course day one is hard to know whether you're going to have this hockey stick of adoption and getting the billions of users that they have today. uh but there are patterns to show whether there is actually a constant growth and a um I would say reiteration of usage of your application moving forward. Um so for us like one of the things that we paid attention to is that stable coins are some of the best product market fees that we've seen in crypto if not after bitcoin. I believe that stable coins actually are significantly important.

We're talking about trillions of dollars traded on a yearly basis for stable coin. uh whether it's for payments or for speculation and collateral management. But interestingly for the case of Salana for example um Salana only has about like 5% of the stable coin supply uh on the network but over 30% of the transactional velocity of stable coins is actually happening on Solana. One of the reasons is because of course transaction fees are cheap and the settlement time to transfer some salana to you uh takes less than 400 milliseconds, right? So people want fast payments and cheap transactions. I've never heard anyone say, you know, take

your time to send me a transaction and take as much money as you can from me, right? Like never happens. So the strategy for stable coins to win is especially on the customer and business side is to really you know save their operating costs um and and most importantly save their time right so these are winning products and I've seen that Salana has has won that that so far for stable coins um but that's one type of asset that that gets traded but then we also have seen the rise of tokenized equities as well which are one of the most exciting verticals when it comes to the real world assets vertical and that's that's really quite interesting to see over 90% uh probably less now that we've seen some of the success on

Robin Hood as well but uh at the time when we published the H1 report in Solana we've seen well over 90% of the volume of tokenized equities happening on Salana as well but interestingly the size of I would say the checks and the size of the stable coins is much higher on Ethereum one because of the Lindy effect. You know, this is the first uh smart contract platforms on the on the on existence. And then interestingly, what we've seen is that um Ethereum there is also a higher prospects uh growth prospects of developers um which is quite unusual. We've seen well over like a thousand% growth uh in uh the number of developers and also contracts

deployed on um on the Ethereum network. One of the reason is because they're really trying to focus on the layer one making it cheaper and easier to use that they had bottlenecks in the last cycle with higher fees and and congestions. But Sona also had the same problem at the infrastructure level with you know uh some network incidents where the network wasn't even operating for well over 20 hours. Um so when it comes to the layer one trade in my opinion the variables for investors to pay attention to are the number of developers because the developers where innovation is happening is where definitely we could see eventually some products that could find uh some market demand. Uh and then secondly trying to pay attention to the

applications built on top uh whether it's for financial instruments like for example you know uh stable coins or tokenized assets but also even more consumerf facing products u that could help blockchains to be invisible to the end consumer where you could use an application on your phone without realizing that this is on Solana or FM but to me on the layer one trade it seems like there is kind of like a toeto-toe type of competition between FM in Salana which is quite interesting but when I take a longer view on what customers like ourselves would want I would never pay for very high transaction fees I would not be comfortable with that h and I would not be very happy to wait for 10 15 uh

minutes uh to get a transaction over to you while we're no longer in the early 90s where the internet pages were loading for like 10 minutes uh and an email was taking so long as well to to be delivered right so I do think that Sana is taking the right approach approach as this monolithic layer one but I do think that what Robin Hood has done and the brand equity that they have uh is also something to pay close attention to and that's why you've seen uh the significant price action in arbitum because Robin Hood has used the arbitum infrastructure to build their own u ethereum compatible network so I would say these are the three main assets that we pay attention to for the layer one trade moving forward so Robin Hood uh Solana and Ethereum

That's a very rich and detailed answer with a lot of alpha. So, I'm gonna have to digest that slower myself. Um, all I want to ask you, >> right? Of course. >> Of course, not financial advice. You you alluded to this briefly in your answer, but you know, you're head of research at 21 Shares. You guys publish a lot of really thorough and uh just wellressearched um reports on on the whole ecosystem. Um, and I I know that you published one recently on the first half of 2026 where you talked a lot about Ethereum and Salana. I would love to just give you a chance to call out a little bit more of the alpha from that report and anything that you think you'd like to highlight to the audience uh that you're you're seeing in the research recently.

>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean one of the predictions that we we have from that report called the uh state of crypto this is our market outlook that we publish on a yearly basis towards usually the beginning of Q1 is that we've seen a significant adoption of course uh of prediction markets um and one of the things that is interesting with prediction markets is that for me the signal that got me into this was when randomly my own mother downloaded the application uh and then she started to follow the US elections a couple of years ago and she didn't realize that this was a blockchain powered application um and I was asking my mother wow you're using pretty market

that's insane um how come um and she found this more u intuitive but also even more accurate as what she was seeing in the polls uh so that's when I saw that okay people can actually use blockchains without realizing that they are actually blockchains sometimes people can even be passive users without actively trade on these platforms like prediction markets. So that's why one of the predictions that we had for prediction markets is the significant growth that we could see uh this year as well. uh you know and uh and this is not disappointing uh when we are when we're looking at the the adoption of these although of course we've seen some regulatory headwinds especially coming out of Europe where these prediction

markets are considered as basically gambling platforms and they're not available for example in like France or or Spain u possibly also there are some warnings uh in the UK as well by by the FCA so uh I do think that the positioning of these prediction markets is going to be incredibly important as I would say information technology platforms rather than gambling platforms so that the mainstream can actually consider them as as uh I would say technology innovation platforms um and moving forward some kind of like you know uh platform that they can consume uh information in an accurate way because the wisdom of the crowd can definitely outpace uh the handful of malls for example. So uh one of the

things that I I like about patient markets is how they were able to kind of like improve the information that the investors are getting and how even the world think about hedging itself uh in the uh in the financial markets world. Um and then the other uh adoption or prediction that we had was around the uh treasury companies. Um so on the treasury companies our prediction was that there would be consolidation uh in some of the largest ones and the reason is because as you know there there has been a Cambrian explosion of uh treasury companies in the last year um and some of them of course bought shell companies with no even like real revenue uh and

trying to to make sure that they can attract customer demand and replicate what strategy has done. Uh but we we always thought that uh there will always be a mismatch in in demand because some of these treasury companies were trying to position themselves as a one-on-one exposure to uh digital assets or more specifically Bitcoin. But we know that this is an equity levered uh exposure uh and not a exposure like an ETF where there is 100% of the bitcoin that you hold uh through a third party custodian for example. Um so many investors discovered that uh this is this is not the case and we've seen many many uh this year closing down. Uh and

interestingly they I published a tracker on on my ex profile to actually look at the developments of these um and the last time we've seen well over I believe like 10 DATs that closed and shut down uh this year and return money back to the investors. So I think that's more on the gloomy side of information or prediction that we had for 2026. uh but then the other one that is more exciting is around AI because we truly believe that essentially AI and crypto are to some extent solving each other's constraints right so AI needs 247 money uh it needs on demand memory and of course AI agents would never open a bank

account without a human uh or a guaranter uh behind it right um so almost like no like underage kids I cannot open in a bank account uh until they get the approval from one of the parents or supervisor. Um so um that's why we actually see these conversions happening between AI agents as well as crypto rails uh whether it's like a Salana or Hyperlquid or Ethereum or even a Robin Hood. And uh I think that's one of the most exciting conversions because investors usually see these mega technologies as two different trades.

Unfortunately in crypto we have kind of like this marketing problem where people think that cryptocurrencies are all the same. So when people realize that we have crypto commodities, crypto equities or crypto-like equities or crypto commodities, then then until they get to that point, they don't realize that, you know, crypto is a technology like the internet, reinventing several sectors that we now take for granted, but took us such a long way to get there, right? I still remember in 2003 when my parents were so uncomfortable to use credit cards to pay for flight tickets. But now you would never think twice to do that unless it's you know it's a new website.

You don't know about the company and you click on the wrong link because of a fishing attack. But aside from that like you would never run into such an issue today. But you know when you transfer like uh some assets from one blockchain to the other it still feels complex right and I think AI agents will decomplexify simplify the user experience um that we have on chain where essentially if you want to move funds around um if you want to touch more grass than actually people do today uh this is one of the things that AI agents would be able to do where they would be on the background of course with the right approval s with the right uh guard rails to be able to simplify

the the crypto experience uh and of course living on on on the the onchain world because we truly believe that onchain finance is is really moving rapidly especially on the back of tokenization. So AI agents will really play a significant role in pushing us to crossing the chasm to mainstream adoption. >> Well just I'll say this one more time that there's a ton of alpha in the reports and the research that 21 Shares is put out. So if you're not following that it's a great resource. Definitely make sure you avail yourself of that. Um, Eliza, we're getting towards the end of time here, so I want to kind of close with a shotgun blast of questions really. But, uh, Bitcoin is up over 25,000 off the lows. A lot of altcoins are pumping, you know, 100% more in some cases. The numbers have been euphoric,

let's say, recently in crypto. What's your updated outlook for the rest of 2026? And what are you most bullish on going into the end of this year here? >> Yeah, absolutely. So for the rest of the year, we have the view that Bitcoin will still be down by 20%, but uh Bitcoin could reach $100,000. Um which is still down, as I mentioned, 20% from its peak of last year. Uh but uh this is the resistant level that uh the asset class would need to go uh to go through. Uh but I still think that being around $85,000 shows the early innings of a tailwind.

Uh which could definitely help investors to feel a lot more comfortable and understand that there is some upside in this asset class. And I would say despite the fact that the clarity act didn't pass um this year so far um there are actions by uh the SEC and the CFTC to really work hand in hand uh to help with you know the advancement of tokenization as we've seen with you know the broker dealer exemption uh for some of these issuers to be able to offer a tokenized equities in the right uh you know boarding environment and making sure that they can protect of course consumers if they are having access to tokenized equities. So I do think that

this is marching towards the right direction but what I'm really excited about as always is really how on one side this asset class can really be considered not as a speculative asset class but that they are actually real you know cash flow driven businesses that people can actually review and and and evidence uh directly in real time on chain. uh and we're starting to actually see the recognition of that um on the back of the inflows into these crypto ETFs, but also the conversations that we have with, you know, wealth advisors and family offices and private banks where they're really excited and they almost get this aha moment that actually crypto is not speculative. Crypto is not as um

I would say, you know, dangerous as they may have thought. Uh but actually this is a real asset class. uh with real money in this with real innovation that people definitely uh could see could see this happening and even being used on a day-to-day basis. But I think Hyperlid has really made the strongest case to show how tangible uh crypto could be especially on the back of the conflict in Iran where people really needed to hedge uh over the weekend. And I do think that you know Hyperlquid and even like Poly Market during the US elections really showed the early innings of of what could happen on chain. the same way we've seen the same uh moment or even

inflection point with Google and Amazon in the past for for the internet. And I think this is why I truly believe that we're still in 2003 in terms of like where the internet was for cry for for crypto more specifically and that we could see a Cambrian explosion of companies with real businesses and real revenue and real users uh that would uh define the future of this asset class beyond Bitcoin. Elijah Dingga, head of research for 21 Shares. Thank you so much for being on Milk Road Crypto. I really enjoyed the conversation. Where can we send people to find more of you and your work online?

>> Sounds great. Thanks for having me, John. Uh, so they can find us on 21shares.com. Uh, they can sign up for our newsletter, which is available on the website directly. They can follow us on our uh, social media platforms whether it's LinkedIn or or X. I know your audience is more on X. So they can find us at no 21 shares uh and also 21 shares_US and they can find me with uh the handle Eli Dingga uh on X as well. >> I'm really looking forward to having you back as we start to go parabolic here. But thank you so much for being on Milkro Crypto and I hope we talk again soon.

>> Thanks John. Thanks for having me >> and thank you all for joining us. I hope you all learned something today. So until next time, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish and we will see you all on the next episode of Milk Road Crypto. Thanks for being here everyone. Bye. >> Thanks for listening to Milk Road. If you enjoyed the show, make sure you like and subscribe. And if you're struggling to find winners in the market, that's exactly what Milkroad Pro is built for. Our analysts have called some of the biggest winners early, and Pro lets you see what they're buying next, every trade they make, and the research behind every position. Check out Milkroad Pro at the link below. Everything you hear on Milkroad is forformational purposes only. These are our personal opinions, not financial advice, and we may own some of the investments we talk about.

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