Bitcoin and Beyond EP12: Taproot Wizards, CatVM, and OP-CAT

Transcript

[Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to the rollup today we have another episode of our Bitcoin and Beyond series with Tyler a man with a hat on this is not a dog with a hat this is a actual human with a hat um and so should be a good conversation today Rob

good morning man how you doing good morning I'm I'm doing well it's another beautiful day in Florida uh I'm stoked to uh talk about some of the Creations in in Bitcoin world uh that are a little bit more uh expressive complex um fun if you will than just normal Bitcoin transactions uh Tyler welcome to the show man yeah GM guys thanks for having me on GM do you guys have a a say in in Tapo wizard land or Quantum Cat Land like qm or or is it just GM jow jimo in Quantum Catland yeah nice nice are those hats exclusive or are are we able to

find one maybe perusing the onchain forest or something yeah yeah you can uh peruse Amazon and find a myriad of hats to choose from or or Etsy if you're feeling extra adventurous uh it's it's kind of similar to our Wizards collection which you're welcome to go uh there's a there's a secret you go and rightclick and then you hit the save button and then you upload it to Twitter and now you have a wizard uh a lot of people don't know that so there's a little Alpha for you and uh what's the what's the origin story of these hats how uh how did you come to acquire uh such a hat did you right click save or did you go through um a little bit more of a uh adventurous

journey to get that one I went through a somewhat adventurous journey to get this one uh I think I actually bought this I have an entire outfit I should have just worn the whole outfit uh but I bought the whole outfit I think we had we had a wizard a very small wizzard gathering at the Stanford blockchain conference actually uh last August and so uh udy Eric and I showed up in our full full wizard attire for that uh and that was uh that was the the origin of my My Wizard outfit so everyone finds you know their wizard outfit in the in the way uh they choose it's kind of like uh when you join the taper Wizards you have to

go on an adventure to figure out what is your wizard costume going to be yep yeah what I mean what was your TAP rot wizard adventure and and who are The Tap Root Wizards yeah so I'll answer the second question first the uh The Tap Root Wizards uh we're we're a company building on bitcoin H if you go to our website you'll see our our mission is to make Bitcoin magical again and that's really baked into the ethos of the company uh I like say that we at The Tap Root Wizards try and live on the edge of both Bitcoin culture and technology and so I think that's a

really fun and unique position to be in where we're deeply ingrained in this kind of Bitcoin season 2 culture pushing that forward but we are also deeply technical which I think some people did not know and some people still do not know uh you know Ry delr C CT is I I think one of the best Bitcoin devs in the world uh and and we started assembling a team of of really amazing developers there as well so along with pushing things uh kind of pushing the culture forward with collections like toer Wizards and Quantum cats we're also cranking hard in the background uh we released a a children's book recently

called cat VM uh that kind of explains an an optimistic withdrawal mechanism that you can encumber Bitcoin to arbitrary computation in so uh we kind of like to spin our time pushing both those directions forward I I got it up on the screen now and this uh we won't go through the whole story but uh this story book with some really really cool illustrations and some Easter eggs and hidden things in there uh it tells the story of a young Reginald speaking to the great Satoshi in the sky and uh and and it really it really tells the story of cat VM which maybe you could

you could kind of like give us a synopsis uh and we'll we'll kind of like leave Kat VM and the story book to uh people that want to read it after the show but tell us like you know what is Kat VM uh and and generally like what is going on when young regginald kind of like takes his uh journey through uh onchain land and and the aisle of chain yeah yeah I I'll I'll give you the the secret it it's pronounced rindell or ryall actually no one no one knows how it's pronounce but those are the two most common pronunciations um but yeah cat VM is essentially the story of Bitcoins scaling past present and future so what

it tells the story of with kind of young reyell as the the main character is how we've attempted to scale Bitcoin both uh you know in a throughput manner but also in a functionality manner over the course of its history so if you read the book which I I highly encourage you to you'll see he you know he goes to the multisig Mad lands uh where the bridge is very uh tumultuous and unsafe he he goes through the lightning wastelands where you know the bridge is safe but no one's really using it uh he he walks by the bit VM Bridge which looks kind of like a rub Goldberg machine that hasn't been built yet uh but people are are

very excited about and then uh finally kind of goes through a uh process of learning about opcat and comes to this uh conclusion that with just opcat we can actually build this thing called cat vvm which will help us build safe Bridges to offchain and also enable all that functionality that people are looking for in Bitcoin that we kind of saw the explosion of with ordinals and runes uh those are the MVPs and I think with cat VM we'll be able to actually build a a safe and secure uh you know extension I'm trying to avoid the word

Layer Two on top of Bitcoin that allows people to finally use Bitcoin in in the way they like to okay so so in your view CVM is like the next logical step in in kind of creating these optimistically verified Bridge architectures or just kind of at the very least bringing that bringing the scalability properties that are required from like a a a trust minimized perspective to bitcoin scaling and kind of extending the um I I I guess like programmability of of Bitcoin exactly so I think in our in our current state you have two options you can either have a safe bridge to something

like lightning where all you can do is send transactions back and forth and I I my personal opinion is that we just haven't seen consumer demand for lightning it's been around for eight years people are not using Bitcoin for payments uh you know if you go to Argentina they're using Tron uh they're not using lightning and lightning has just a lot of user experience problems but I will say like lightning relatively safe uh on the other hand if you want a bunch of functionality on top of Bitcoin you want to build your decks you want to build your you know crazy lending platforms you can do a nice little multi- side chain or that there's some

like stranger side chain constructions but what you get with those is you get the safety issues that come with those multi6 Solutions so you end up with okay well I I I'll do things on this side chain until the bridge collapses all my money's gone and hopefully I made my money and got out before that happened but you know so far we've just seen that multi sigs are not secure in the long run they they get hacked and so anyone with a large amount of money I think doesn't want to be bridging that through just a regular all multisig bridge and so the the goal of KVM is essentially to say well

with with CVM we can enable both these things we can give you the safe Bridge with the optimistic withdrawal mechanism that you know you Andy can always go to on bitcoin layer one and exit with your assets regardless if the tap rot Wizards decide to stop advancing the system and ride off into the distance tomorrow and in this system you know you have the ability to build with highly expressive programming languages that look more turning complete that allow you to do more things and write these expressive contracts that right now we are just limited to because in Bitcoin script we have our you know 100 or so op codes but we're still missing you know the

multiply op code which is a a common thing that people might want to do uh when they're writing programs and so the goal with CVM is to give people that expressive layer and a safe way to get to it and then so Okay so we've we've we've heard a lot about bit VM being in kind of the implementation phases and Alpin Labs has put together their variation they almost call it like 2.5 or something or 1.5 Bitcoin BVM 1.5 where they've lowered this time of of uh of its waiting period for this kind of disputes from six months down to one month or so so why is why is either variations of those not good enough why

do we need cat VM yeah so I think bit VM is first of all I think it's an amazing piece of technology like it's an amazing Innovation I think the fact that Robin realized that you could simulate nand Gates on bitcoin and therefore we can simulate any computer is crazy uh and ridiculous and I had a ton of fun learning about that back when it came out I think the main issue with bit VM and uh I know the alpen guys and CRA are working on solving this is that when you bridge into bit VM like no problem it's it's relatively safe but when you want

to withdraw the way withdrawals work is that uh you know Andy and Robbie you'd be like I want to withdraw 10 Bitcoin each and there'd be a time period let's say it's like a week during which a bunch of withdrawals flow in and then after those withdrawals have flown in let's say maybe it's 100 Bitcoin worth of withdrawals there is a bridge operator and that bridge operator is essentially assigned to pay out all 100 Bitcoin from from the bridge the issue with bit VM is that when that bridge operator needs to pay out that 100 Bitcoin they cannot take the Bitcoin

from the bridge they have to front all of that Bitcoin pay everyone out on the layer one collect essentially those receipts and then once they've paid out all 100 of those Bitcoin they can go back to the bridge and say here are my proofs that I paid this uh then it goes through kind of an optimistic withdrawal process so that's where the optimistic withdrawal happens is you know we we're optimistically assuming these Bridge operators pay these things out and then uh are coming back to make their claim that they did pay these out and then assuming that they did that honestly great they now get the 100

Bitcoin out of the bridge and of sensibly they probably took a small fee uh as they as they paid out you know maybe they only paid out 99.9 Bitcoin on the layer one that's great the challenge for these bit VM Bridges is that as your rollup scales in tvl you your your Bridge your total assets in the bridge get larger and larger so you can go look at AR arbitron's like what $17 billion TDL um at one point in time in the not so distant past arbitrum had a a like a billion dollar

outflow within one week from their bridge that is now a a difficult Capital formation question and so the way bit VM as kind of specified and bit VM is kind of under specified everyone's kind of open to implement bit VM as they want you might have just a single Bridge operator who's responsible for sourcing a billion dollars of capital to pay out everyone on the L1 and if they fail to pay out even like a single dollar of that because it's all stored in this Merkel tree they cannot go back and claim

their billion dollars from the bit VM bridge and so as your roll up scales you have this issue where it basically becomes more expensive to to operate this bridge because you're going to need to have credit out to be able to pull in this Capital should outflows flow in so if you wanted to say like how do you make this bridge 100% live I guess is the right word not not NE necessarily safe but 100% live it would be the bridge operators need to be capitalized one to one with the tvl that's locked into the bridge and so I think in my opinion that

is just like that's an economic nightmare of a problem uh we aspire to build a you know amazing layers on top of Bitcoin as many teams do and think if you do that you want more funds going into your bridge and with bit VM it just creates this challenging problem so uh I know the Alin Labs team are working on ways to kind of mitigate that risk and I I'm excited to see I I I'm excited to see kind of the the work they do on that front but uh that was the piece ryel and I put out I think at at the start of April of this year when we kind of

realized oh bit VM is is really cool I think it's like a cool piece of technology but in terms of being economically viable I'm I'm skeptical as of now and I hope to be hope to be proven wrong but barring being proven wrong that's why we kind of came up with KVM and Cat VM gets rid of this issue like the bridge operator can pay you out from the bridge Bridge there's no more of this economically they need to front the capital so I I think CVM is basically the better better bridge

that you can build with opcat bit VM I think is probably the best you can do without opcat we at the tap Wizards just think like that's still not good enough like we need opcat so that we can do do better and I expect if opcat comes in you'll see the the alen labs the trayas of the world they'll they'll integrate cat into bit VM or they'll you know make their own variation of cat VM uh no one's like I I can't improve upon this with opcat but bium is the best you can do now I think cat VM is what we should be doing and that's why we're pushing so hard for a a you know an opcat soft for awesome so bit VM is pretty much the

best bridge that we can build but it still has issues because there's this bridge operator that has to front all the capital and then if there is an issue and there's a dispute there's this optimistic settlement process and it leads to this dispute game that can take a really long time and so while it's it's really good with the current setup it's still not perfect and that's where you guys have tried to introduce op cat to solve some of those problems and unlock cat VM and make a more perfect Bridge maybe that has its own issues that we can talk about a little later before we we kind of like dive into that could you just give like a rather succinct like high level approach of of op cat because we've talked a lot about

cat VM but a really important piece of cat VM is op cat so could you just kind of expand upon like what opcat is um and why it's able to unlock this better version of bit VM that we we call Cat VM yeah absolutely so uh opcat is is a a a an OP code that was originally in Bitcoin so uh the way Bitcoin works is it's it's basically like a calculator uh you know it's it's a calculator you have various buttons and you can do anything you can do with those combination of buttons that as an analogy I like to say ethereum is more like an iPhone you know you you can just like kind of go on

there and do anything you want Bitcoin is more like your your ti 83 from high school you know you could you can add you can subtract you can type in some numbers uh you can't multiply but you can do a lot of things like that um so opcat is a very simple op code it stands for concatenate so concat concatenation is literally just taking two strings and putting them together so if I had a string that said Robbie and one that said Andy and I concatenated them it would say Robbie Andy um that's like that is literally all it does it is eight lines of code and Satoshi disabled it in 2010 with uh I think like 11 other

op codes and the no one knows really whyde he just pushed this change and on GitHub you can go look it up it's called miscellaneous changes and he just goes through and disables uh he disables upcat he disables multiply he disables like modular modulo um bitwise operations tons of things and so very simply like that's what opcat does it literally takes two elements and swishes them together that being said what opcat lets you do are some quite powerful things so opcat lets you create covenants on bitcoin and Covenants are these special

Scripts that restrict the future flow of Bitcoin so today uh if I send you Robbie some Bitcoin I can't put many restrictions on that the only things I can do there's something called a time loock so I can say you can't send this Bitcoin for X number of blocks I can put something called a hash loock on there that says you can't spend this Bitcoin unless you basically give me a secret password or show a secret password that I had to tell you and that's that's like kind of it but what I couldn't do I couldn't say hey Robbie I'm gonna send you some

Bitcoin but you can only send it to Andy or udy and here are their addresses that is not possible today uh with opcat we're actually able to do that so we can simulate these covenants uh which which turns out to be very powerful primitive when we are thinking about bridge bridge design um the second thing and I think this was a big unlock that rindell figured out we can do is we can simulate finite State machines with opcat and so again this goes into the question of like how do we persist State across

things it's probably like too technical to talk about here but bined like these covenants these finite State machines these are the building blocks that allow us to uh build cfum and then the final thing that opcat lets you do is it lets you verify Merkel trees so Merkel trees are a great way to uh you know store data and make commitments to large amounts of data with a tiny amount of data and with opcat you can essentially what we say validate Merkel trees so you can kind of go from a bottom layer you can check that this element is indeed

correct with a small amount of data you know maybe you only need one kilobyte to check that this data is here in this tree that goes all the way up even though the tree itself if I gave you all of it was gigabytes of data um so these are the three Primitives that we get out of opcat I think a a myth I like to dispel is that opcat is this all powerful op code that if we enable you can do anything you want on bitcoin like this is not true uh I just described to you the things you can do with opcat those unlock very powerful features but that does not you know suddenly make

Bitcoin turn in complete and now you know people are going to be writing amm on the L1 and all of this like crazy stuff yeah I think that's like that's like the big worry so I appreciate the uh in-depth explanation there it's uh it's there's controversy here though and you've kind of brought this community up to push forward and and we were talking about this earlier that it's quite difficult to actually be able to create a soft fork in Bitcoin because well it's it's kind of immutable for a reason and before we kind of get into the community and kind of what the process of that is I have a kind kind of an off tangent question if if Satoshi was able to do

that back in 2010 like does he or some groups still have the power to change things without speaking to anybody at any current time period and also like I don't know how much you guys have like looked at chain and stuff but like if he okay let's just start with that question because the the next question is more existential talking about if he dumps all of his coins like what happens and things but like let's just start there like can he still make changes that like you or I couldn't make yeah that that's a fantastic question and gets a bit into the the Bitcoin organization which is a topic I'm a big fan of um the answer is no no so Satoshi has a GitHub and the way Bitcoin works right now is I'd say

99% of people when they download Bitcoin they download uh Bitcoin from Bitcoin core and so you can go uh on the website I think it's Bitcoin core.org uh and if you want to start running a node you download it today that particular version of Bitcoin has uh I think five or six people who have merge access into it and so these are like the five core maintainers of Bitcoin core and none of those are Satoshi anymore so interestingly they used to be Peter like people like Peter wah uh or Greg Maxwell

these big names that kind of reached legendary status in Bitcoin and those two guys specifically actually after tap Roo activated stepped down because they said we feel like we've gotten too powerful we feel like if we suggest something people are going to believe it no matter what just because we were the ones who said it and like we don't want to have this this power we don't want to have this merge power to you know add things back into into Bitcoin and so uh they Ste down new maintainers stepped up and now like those are the people who basically control the Bitcoin core

GitHub repo okay so those people have the power to make the CH if there's some sort of sensus socially that opcat or opcat has to go through it would be those people who we would rely on to make the change yeah so ultimately they would need to merge the change into Bitcoin core uh at least that's like that's a happy path there are some unhappy paths that we won't talk about here and and there's some like it's a discussion within Bitcoin to have as to like the fact that Bitcoin core is the version that's used by 99% of people and should we have other versions that also run Bitcoin

that you know de decentralize that a bit um in ethereum you have like tons of different clients right uh in Bitcoin we kind of have this one client and you can argue whether this is better better or worse but yeah in the happy path uh basically this thing called an activation client would come out and this activation client would be a version of Bitcoin core that has opcat enabled or says like opcat and it has opcat in it and then we go through a song and dance about uh do people want to activate this thing and if the answer

is yes then easy peasy like maybe Bitcoin core are the people who put out the activation client maybe they're not either way once there's clear consensus to reenable opcat all they have to do is hit the merge button in Bitcoin core and it's like okay here we go here's the new version whenever you go to download Bitcoin now you download the version with opcat re-enabled and this is version you know 28.1 and that's that's what everyone would start using gotcha okay okay then lasting on the Satoshi side of things is it the common social belief that satoshi's coins are

just never going to move and then if they were to move or if something was to happen would that like have do you foresee like any very negative consequences not just not on like the price of Bitcoin or anything um but more so on likee the idea behind the like the decentralized nature of it yeah uh obviously probably bad news for the price if Satoshi starts dumping his coins but I think on the decentralized nature it certainly would have an impact and you could what what you could see is like if Satoshi then came out and said I think we need to add uh you know snarks

to bitcoin then that's like that's that's going to hold some weight right Satoshi will have some weight in the political realm in the same way that the Greg Maxwells and the Peter Ras of the world had a lot of weight and there's a reason that they are like we're kind of staying out of future softw discussions unless we think it's really terrible for Bitcoin because you know our opinion holds too much weight and so if Satoshi came back I think you you basically see like a new political inant with a lot of power joining this organization that right now is pretty decentralized and yeah like that will have some impact now would stoi be able

to immediately come in and like just swing his or her weight around and make things happen no I don't think so I find it rather serendipitous that the Bitcoin happening and all of this Bitcoin political the like Bitcoin politics coincides with an election year in the US I just find that kind of entertaining um and I I think Bitcoin politics is like something that is kind of like in the Zeitgeist again because you know we're talking about these changes and so tap Roo wizard and and Quantum cats is almost like this community Uprising this social Collective that is built around these these nfts to to build like some

identity in the Bitcoin Community you guys have Quantum cats as a mission driven nft to to forward the idea of op cat um there are some political uh operatives if you will or opponents to the opat idea um not maybe not necessarily opponents but like people that need convincing right for this to go through um I was reading vitalik's piece when they were talking about the Bitcoin cash big blocksize Wars you mentioned the New York agreement is kind of this cabal of bigger players institutions and then you have the miners which form like their own regime if you will and have their own self-interests so we have like the

community of users represented in this case by op cat uh Quantum cats and tap Wizards you have the miners and then you have the institutions call them maybe centralized exchanges or or micro strategy and Bitcoin sailor in that that group as well and so you know how how do you view just kind of like maybe put your your political hat on which you already have uh you have the the Hat on like how do you see this political landscape uh before us now and how do you see what are kind of the what's the current like political dynamic in Bitcoin right now between these three groups yeah I think it's probably helpful to talk about the the history here a little bit of opcat and where it

came from so I think opcat has been like bandied about for the last six plus years as something that devs would like because it will enable them to do covenants uh which people have wanted on bitcoin for for a while now so as early as like 2015 there you can find Bitcoin talk discussions about opcat and and what people could do with it um I think in 2020 one I think Andrew PSTA wrote his cat and schnore tricks which basically explained hey here's like really how you

can do covenants with opcat and uh actually at that St conference that we were talking about at the beginning of the show uh we got together with a group of maybe like 10 or so people who are like we actually think opcat fixes a lot of problems in Bitcoin and we think we can do a lot of cool things if we bring it back at the time like this wasn't on our radar at all I think something we were actually looking into were vaults because I think vaults are just like a killer use case for Bitcoin but uh when we heard cat we were just like this is this is so like quite frankly it's memeable right uh if if you were if I if I told you to go on

the internet and promote cat or vaults you would be like I'm gonna go promote the cats like much it it it just makes sense um and so our mission at that point in time was really like let's let's jumpstart the Bitcoin organization again it's kind of like crawled to a halt as you said there's these various factions or political parties and and it's kind of like at a stal me like nothing is moving so let's see if we can push things forward so we realized that if we can push cap forward it actually does enable you know covenants these things that we want to see on bitcoin so we're like great like this is the thing we need to do and that's what inspired

the the quantum cats collection so the quantum cats collection was basically an opportunity to say hey we want to educate the imun community at large about opcat and what it enables people can decide afterwards if they like it or not if everyone was like opcat this is stupid or it's G to kill Bitcoin would' have been like okay like that was a fun experiment on to the next thing I think we at the taper Wizards were surprised by what a a ground swell movement it created but as we released the collection as we started educating the ordinals community about what opcat would enable and then really like they took it and ran with it you

know we pled a seed but opcat is not are soft for right uh Ethan and Armen wrote wrote the bip I'd say the ordinals community is really the one that's pushing it forward and saying look we see these issues within Bitcoin we want better products on bitcoin and we see that opcat will enable us to get those better products and so then you have to ask the question okay how does that affect these these various parties well the users of Bitcoin should be thrilled to have opat like you're gonna get even if you don't do anything on a layer two you're GNA get way better security for

your Bitcoin because we'll be able to give you vaults on the layer one which I think are phenomenal you can have vaults and Covenants so just a lot safer for anyone who's self- cusing their Bitcoin for anyone who wants to go up to to you know Layer Two who's like I love ordinals I love runes I want more functionality great we're going to be able to finally build you those safe Bridges and those expressive layer twos that you want to play around with for the miners I you can we can go look at nimool dospace right now I think the average fee rate's like 15 SATs per VB like we're not we're not at 500 SATs per Vite like the network is not secured for the future if transaction fees do not

increase and so from the minor perspective I I think a lot of them are looking at this and saying well if this is going to enable more transactions like that's what we need that is our job we our job is to make money for our shareholders if we can get more transactions with the opcat and it's not going to kill Bitcoin then this seems I think palatable uh probably Beyond P well it should seem good to a lot of minor and then for those you know large economic actors I think it really goes back to what do their users want to do you know what what does coinbase get out of this what does a

micro strategy get out of this and you know you've seen micro strategies playing around with ordinals now uh they made their announcement about that you know if if I told coinbase I can help them custody their Bitcoin better I think they'd be very excited about that and so the thing I really like about opcat is it gives everyone something and it's it's a very un opinionated soft Fork because it's just adding this very simple primitive backend of concatenating two elements together uh whereas if I came to you and said I want to add vaults people be like well we have to go through this whole song and

dance to get vaults who really wants vaults like Tyler really wants vaults but probably doesn't care about vaults and and with cat I think what makes it so special is that it is this it's this jack of all trades master of none but in the current political environment I think that that's the type of thing that we need so you truly think it basically appeals to all all factions in every way possible I think so I think if you actually put in the time and and look past you know maybe maybe you're a laser ey Maxi and you're like I I hate ordinals with a passion like this will help make Bitcoin better money yeah I I I like truly believe that and so if if

that's all you want Bitcoin to be great like I'm gonna help you make Bitcoin better money but then wouldn't this just lead to more desire for upgrades and more people being accepting of more upgrades which could be problematic in the future in the sense where it's like okay if we're willing to to do this how H how does this not become a a slippery slope of upgrades which are more questionable leading to more uh divisive Behavior within the broader Bitcoin Community how do we how do we keep this as like maybe it's it's not just a one-time thing but it's something that that uh uh remains socially acceptable and in Broad

consensus for the community and not leading to more and more conversations about other upgrades which again just caused more divisions yeah I I guess I would say I don't think this caused any divisions so I don't think there's an issue here um I'd also challenge that more upgrades is not a it's not a good or bad thing I think you can say okay if it's super easy to change Bitcoin that that may be an issue more upgrades on bitcoin is not necessarily a bad thing so I was in uh I was at Bitcoin plus plus in Austin a couple months ago and Rusty Russell a long time Bitcoin

developer proposed this thing called the Great script restoration project which would actually restore all of those OP codes that Satoshi disabled uh back when he was through out cat that would probably be a string of soft forks I actually think if I if I were the grand Pua of Bitcoin I'd probably like spend a year making sure everything was fine and hit the like let's go button tomorrow I think something bitcoiners I think a risk that bitcoiners are bad at pricing is the risk of not changing and that we like to say oh it's perfect the way it is you get this religious fervor that like Satoshi

handed down a perfect piece of software but like that's not true right we've had many many soft Forks to get to the point where we are today and so claiming that Bitcoin was perfect the way it is or shouldn't change I I think that's like that's a a very Draconian way to look at Bitcoin as a system and if you think it's perfect the way it is today great I have great news for you we when we change Bitcoin we soft forked it so you can use Bitcoin in the exact same way you use it today and other people can use it the way they want to but keep doing what you're doing and and go on with it um but I I do think there's a

real risk of let this oif narrative seep in that that Bitcoin is perfect we shouldn't question you know the intention of Satoshi it's it's it's amazing the way it is and if we change it then only catastrophic failure Waits on the other side right uh that that is not the the true counterfactual here gotcha cool I think that was uh that was that was pretty well scripted I was kind of uh trying to tee you up there and and poke a hole in the upcat theory but I think it's a pretty good stopping point I have one last thing and just kind of closing thoughts from your end what do you expect the timeline to be for for op cat if you had to take a

guess or a prediction um and then yeah any other closing thoughts from your end yeah I I think we'll see opcat this year uh that's what like that's it like December 31st 2020 whatever year it is 2024 uh offcat online so I'm I'm excited to see the like continued push forward around this awesome awesome um well it's been a pleasure Rob I'm not sure what you have up on the screen but I think is is this the road map to upat I think so T Tyler could probably explain this a little bit better but it looks like we've this is the road map of

uh bip land um which is the uh long and the song and dance that Tyler was describing about processing a Bitcoin soft fork and so we've cleared these green Milestones uh and then we are we are over here on the white Milestone so uh so yeah Tyler you mentioned that you uh anticipate seeing Bitcoin with opcat this year yeah okay very exciting times ahead we've got uh a few more steps in this process but it sounds like things are moving uh quite swiftly which is is a great to hear um yeah man thank you so much for coming on it was it was an absolute

pleasure and uh I think this demystified a lot of the topics that we've been hearing about in Bitcoin but even on this series no one has really like hit on on some of the intricacies of bit VM cat VM op cat and and the political landscape of of Bitcoin and the social consensus that it takes uh to achieve some Bitcoin change and so we've got a lot good enough Solutions but it's uh it's really um revitalizing it's really invigorating to uh to hear your take and and how you per your perspective on uh on what Bitcoin is and how it should or shouldn't change so thanks for sharing awesome yeah I really appreciate youall having me on this is a fun discussion so

go out tell your friends about opcat tell them to demand better from Bitcoin and we'll uh see you at the end of the year cheers man awesome thanks Tyler