Billions in Ethereum Treasuries Could Spark DeFi’s Greatest Boom Yet – Avichal & Mike

Transcript

There is this propensity for humans to really overestimate what's possible in the short term and underestimate what's possible in the long term. >> The amounts of capital that we're talking about here are like pretty pretty substantial that could really make moves in DeFi. I mean, we're talking tens of billions of dollars. >> Okay. Institutional adoption is happening. Bessant is sending $3 trillion worth of stable coins by 2028. >> Welcome back to the rural. This is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community.

>> We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. >> Sit back, relax, and enjoy it. >> Right, guys. Welcome to the world TV. Aby of Electric Capital and Mike from EtherFi, guys. Good to have you on. Mike, good to see you. Avi, first time on the show. Good to have you guys. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, great to be back. >> Mike's on his way to Singapore, guys. So if you hear a little bit of ding ding in the back, he's on his way to show Etheri to the masses. AB, it's your first time on the show, man. Quick intro about yourself, how you got into crypto or kind of how Electric Capital formed, what your thesis is. Um yeah, man, thanks for joining.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having us. Um yeah, my background, uh most my career as an entrepreneur. I started and sold some companies the um most recently to Facebook um and then ran some big teams there and then started angel investing um and uh was fortunate to be involved with a bunch of companies that have gone on to do well in and out of crypto. So things like um notion and Figma and Air Table kind of like more vanilla stuff. And then um my my co-founder Curtis and I we were doing a lot of um more out there stuff. So things like self-driving cars and supersonic airplanes and and crypto.

This is sort of like And um the crypto stuff was just the most interesting and weird and fun and it reminded us the most of um of the internet like the early internet when we were kids and we were just too young to participate in in a lot of that early internet stuff. And so um we said, "Wow, this this reminds us of early internet." And and the more we thought about it, the more we said, "Oh, this is this is potentially really transformative. Like if this really works, this this changes the entire financial system, like the global financial system." And so we started um spending more and more time on it. We were early investors in kind of that 161 17 18 era to a bunch of um companies and protocols um from that time and um a bunch of people started reaching out and saying hey what is this

crypto stuff you guys been into it for a while we we' done some um Bitcoin mining in like 2010 2011 and so some folks here in Silicon Valley knew us and say they said um hey what is this crypto stuff like is Bitcoin real this time you know what's an ICO should we somehow be involved that sort of snowballed into people saying we don't really understand crypto stuff at all and it's different than what we do. You know, a lot of the venture investors here and so they uh asked if we would manage their money too and so kind of a bunch of the GP general partners at a bunch of these other VC firms started reaching out and just uh asking us to uh get crypto exposure and um and so that's how electric started in 2018 and since then we've scaled it up

and so if you look at our like SEC filings I think uh the last batch that we did uh we managed somewhere around three and a half billion at this point. So we scaled it up pretty nicely. Um we we mostly if you look at the investments that we do mostly we do um sort of early stage you know our typical sort of speed and series A investor. So for a lot of the stuff we invested in we've been pretty early. You can go look at the stuff we've invested in website. So that's that's sort of our bread and butter. >> Um over the years just by virtue of having been early to um things like you know ETH and Salana and a bunch of DeFi stuff we've ended up with some good expertise on how to manage these assets on chain. Um and so this um has turned

into an interesting sort of um strategy for us where where we work with a lot of our portfolio companies to help them bootstrap and get off the ground. Um and uh and do that in a secure way. And so we we've increasingly been doing um onchain stuff for the last few years and trying to help protocols really just get off the ground. Um and so we do that now. We we work with uh Mike and co on on a bunch of projects and uh Esila um we're helping manage the assets there and try to drive those on chain. I think we'll have some announcements coming up in the next couple weeks. I think will will help people understand kind of the scale of the possibility there. So that's a that's a quick intro.

>> Beautiful. Yeah. Uh it's good to have a a venture capitalist who does things on chain. That's a good signal there. You know, there's a there's quite a stigma against VCs sometimes. So glad that you uh included that part. >> There's a lot of people out there calling themselves VCs that are not actually VCs. >> Well guys, so we have quite the kind of context happening right now. Uh we're very firmly in uh token launch season, if you will, Q4, Q1. I mean, we are going to see a barrage of main net launches across the cryptosphere. We're also very firmly in IPO season. We saw uh Kraken announced a big raise a couple days ago. Uh we we've seen the likes of Circle go live this year and have massive launches. Um and I saw one of

Yano's posts. uh this the full list of potential IPOs for 2026 is is pretty is pretty insane. Uh all that happening while treasury companies have been uh kind of really foaming at the mouth to get crypto exposure and buying billions of dollars of ETH, Bitcoin, Salana uh and various other assets down the risk curve. Um all of that happening while altcoin ETFs are on the verge of getting approved by the SEC for the first time ever. the likes of XRP, XLM, Cardano, you know, maybe not everyone's favorite coins, but these are the ones that that are going to get approved most likely.

This is the context that we have here uh in the landscape. Mike, starting with you, when you're looking at this from Ether's perspective, from the DeFi perspective, maybe we could just kind of zoom in a bit here. So, this is like the macro context. What is happening on the micro? What are you seeing on chain? What are what is the where is the demand coming from? Maybe you can just give us a bit of a context for the onchain ecosystems. >> Yeah. Uh well, there's not aside from Enidzilla um which Avich can can talk about, there's honestly hasn't been a ton of impact on chain from these various digital asset treasury companies. But I I mean I genuinely believe that it's coming and the amounts

of capital that we're talking about here are like pretty pretty substantial that could really make uh make moves in DeFi. We're talking tens of billions of dollars that have been uh you know collected I guess by these digital asset treasury companies. And the big difference versus the ETFs which are generally passive I mean at best they can stake you know some small portion of their um uh of their ETH or solar or whatever uh because of liquidity requirements. Uh these DATs are actually able to do stuff with their uh you know with their assets. Um, now certain DAC's like, and I may be wrong about this, but my current understanding is BitMine has explicitly said that they're not going to do anything too exotic in in DeFi or

anything in in DeFi at all. Um, uh, but others, you know, more forward-looking ones like Ezilla have said that they in fact have already done stuff. They've actually already deployed into into Deepi. Uh, and I think that, you know, we're talking, you know, there's tens of billions of dollars in ETFs, and if you can own something that's generating a yield of, I don't know, five, six, 7% on the same asset versus owning something that is generating no yield, in fact, that has a cost associated with it. Uh, I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer that people are going to want to own the the yield generating assets. So, uh, so I think this is huge. I mean, I I'm um uh I would have thought that it would have

kind of the the floodgates would have already opened by now, but look, in the next like six months, I think we're going to see some real fireworks. >> Yeah, >> I maybe I can add like two points of color there, plus one everything Mike just said. One, I think on on the ETF side, because you can't stake, you are essentially getting inflated away a little bit. I think this is going to change. Um, you know, if you look at kind of uh the direction the SEC is going in the United States, I think they're going to they're going to have to allow staking at some point. It's just it's it's a benefit to the consumer. Even with that, I think um you know, because of kind of the way ETF redemptions work, like when somebody says, "I want to sell my shares," you got to sell the ETH on the back end.

There there's actually some like liquidity management um the ETFs will have to do. And so that might mean that they can't stake 100% of their ETH or if they do they might have to use liquid staking tokens or I don't know if the SEC will allow that or they'll have to sell their staked ETH on like a secondary market um you know to to because because the exit Q's on ETH and eat some slippage. And so when you start looking at all those factors, I think it will likely be the case just just by the math of it that the that the ETFs will likely and at least in the Ethereum case um not be able to produce the staking yields that you would be able to if you didn't have to deal with all that sort of liquidity constraints. Um it it may be different you know depending on kind

of how like some of these other chains work like you know if there if there were Salana ETF there might be some arguments that because of the way Salana block production works and MEV and yada yada that actually might be able to be competitive on the staking. Um but strictly speaking on the ETH side I suspect the ETFs will will be a little bit underperforming relative to the native staking yield. The other thing that I think Mike is getting at on the on the um DAT side where you do have tens of billions of dollars that's come in. One thing I think um that's a little tricky putting on sort of your your DAT hat for a second here is you would absolutely like to be able to go max risk and go generate all the yield that you can and I think if you think that DeFi is going

to have all these great RWA instruments and and native you know DeFi instruments that can generate 10 15 20% yield this starts to look really compelling right like abstractly speaking you're like well if you're sitting on $10 billion and you can generate 10% a year on this you have a company that's worth 10 billion in assets that generates a billion dollars a you're in free cash flow and you need like 12 employees. This is like an amazing business, right? This this starts to look Birkshshire Haway-ish, right? You're just spinning cash. Um that's the promise of it. Now, the challenge is if you lose ETH, um the market will really beat you up, right?

So, so like the whole point is to have max ETH exposure with some additional yield. And so where you turn the dial on that risk exposure is really critical. And so I suspect what's going to happen here is some people like BMR, right? like um we're just for disclosure we we're also investors in in Tom Lee's thing um you know in the pipe we're investors in ESB Joe Luben's um you know on the pipe like we we we sort of we're close to those guys and have a tremendous amount of respect for them um one challenge is once once you're at that scale once you're at five or 10 billion in ETH um you have to be really careful because so much of the value of your company is driven by the ETH price that if you lose any amount of ETH because there's a small contract bug or

something the market will really beat you up. Yeah. >> And B, it's hard to move the needle, right? I mean, like, you know, could you today put $10 billion into into DeFi and dramatically outperform um base ET staking yield, right? And how much work would you have to do to put 10 billion to work and really outperform? So, I think there are like a couple of constraints in the short term um that that will sort of make it so that all this $10 billion doesn't come in at once. But I agree with Mike that like looking forward as the risks come down as the market becomes more comfortable with it as as these entities sort of build up a buffer you know because if you're if you're let's say a year into the business and you've been staking and doing some of the other you know less

risky stuff in our opinion like from from the Z side you've now built a buffer like maybe you got 10 20 30 millions and so if you lose a million dollars in DeFi it's like it's not the end of the world right you're actually still dramatically outperforming staking so I think like the the willingness to go risk on will actually go over time. U we just need to let the the companies sort of like build out some buffer um of of reserves and and that they can eat into should there ever be a loss on the DeFi side. That's kind of my read on I think how the that side of the market will play out over the next like two years. >> Introducing extended exclusively on Stark a nextgen ps trading platform live today with 50 plus trading pairs from crypto to tradi experience on chain today. Deposit in

the community vault for attractive returns EMV compatible and engage in unified margin spot trading lending and per trading. >> Interesting. Yeah. I I think it's interesting that you bring up Birkshshire Hathaway because they have a specific workaround in their in their stock basically that allows them to you know be an investment company under the investment company act like I believe like 1940 where people are asking how you know why can't why can't we do that for stocks like Tesla stock right well it's you know you can't do that for securities but you can for commodities and so this is like a whole new kind of wedge here that >> smart people kind of figured out and have now created and So I I expect this to extend for a while. Um but kind of

more on the points they were making and Mike, I'm curious how you see these effects. You know, obvious I'm not sure it's so black and white, right? Let's say there's 10 billion in ETH in these dats. I'm not sure, you know, ETH Zillow or um Tom Le's Bitmon are going to go 100% or zero. you know, I could see a world where it's 10% in Dave, 10% into Ether, it's 10% into, you know, slowly kind of build it up such, you know, to signal to the market that they're actually taking care of their shareholders, but they're doing it in a strategic way. Um, and so Mike, >> we can we can easily absorb 10 billion.

I'll just I'll just put that out there to Bid. >> Okay. Okay. Tomley, if if you're watching, >> Tommy, if you're listening, >> all in on E35. And so Mike, what do you expect the knock on effects to be to to look like from the protocol level? Right? Because all these people are valuing these assets right now looking at their revenues, their TBLs, their growth, you know, things all the way from a unis swap, athena, maker to etheri, hyperlquid, uh, pumpf fun, etc. These are kind of really kind of forming what is looking like uh somewhat of the mag seven, if you will, of crypto, uh, slowly but surely. How do you think about the knock-on effects for Ether and for all of the uh protocols mentioned as Defi TBL rips past 1 billion finally or sorry one trillion finally?

>> Yeah, I mean I I think it's going to be positive uh for sure. I mean I'll I'll make a note uh somewhat on the on the cynical side maybe a little bit. I and I think this is changing but DeFi today is still I what I would call very Ponzi coded. uh even when people are evaluating things in terms of fundamentals, they still um see it through this lens of like well what does this mean in terms of the token price like how does this work in terms of the tokconomics. Uh there are you know maybe one in a 100 people in in crypto or DeFi are actually thinking about like have actually internalized what business fundamentals actually uh you know are.

um uh that's starting to change and I think uh things like revenue buybacks like these things that are now starting to become a bit of a meta and and I think will will accelerate uh will over time act like a force of gravity on uh you know on the ecosystem where anything that just doesn't have anything that does have it and these are you know healthy businesses that are actually generating uh you know legitimate revenues meaning not you know machine gunning tokens out the one side and then claiming you know some fraction of that as revenue on on the other side. But I mean actual like legitimate businesses with gross margins and positive unit economics. Um uh these tokens are just going to over a period of years dramatically outperform anything else.

Um but it's uh my my unfortunate take is I think we're talking about years here. I think it's going to take a long time for people to rewire uh the way they approach these things. Um um but uh I mean on the positive side certainly the ATS and everything else and the whole you know stable coin mania right now is bringing so much capital to uh to work that uh that's just going to lead to a lot of innovation lots of really cool uh uh you know projects uh having uh having good runs as a result of it. You know, there's there's one thing we talk about on the venture side, which I've said on a bunch of podcasts over the years, but maybe in this context that Mike's talking about is worth reiterating, which is there is this propensity for humans to really overestimate what's possible in the

short term and underestimate what's possible in the long term. And it's a side effect of how exponential growth works. Like our brains are not really wired for exponential growth. And so in the early days when it is exponential, it's sort of sublinear. At a certain point, it becomes like truly truly crazy exponential, but we still think linearly. And so you get this effect where you like overestimate what's going to happen in the short term, but underestimate what's going to happen in the long term. And I think that's that's likely the case here with all this DeFi stuff. Um, which I I agree with Mike. There's a lot of sort of ponzomics happening and the tokens are not sustainable. Um, but really like, you know, when we underwrite an investment, we build these spreadsheet models and we're like, well, what do you have to believe about an Ether? What do you have

to believe about an a or what do you have to believe about, you know, some of these some of these protocols that actually are are durable? They're they're building something real. Um, and you don't have to believe crazy things from from like a cash flow and revenue perspective over 10 years to to end up with like really interesting outcomes. It's just that you might be overpaying for two or three years, right? Or you might get punched in the face with the volatility for three or four or five years. Um, but but you know, I think it's it's sort of like the market manifestation of of this psychological phenomenon which people really overestimate what's possible in the short term and really underestimate what's possible in the long term. And if you have the right time preference, you can essentially take advantage of that.

like if you're willing to be patient for seven to 10 years and and bet on the right things um that that's why you know like long-term investing can really work because the human psychology sort of prevents people from being able to do that most of the time. >> Yeah. So Obby, just to follow up on that then when when you're looking at the landscape of DeFi of the applications and of the tokens associated with them. Um is there a is there a thought process that you're having or a mental model right now for okay institutional adoption is happening is saying three trillions of three trillion dollars worth of stable coins by 2028.

>> Yeah. >> The DATs are buying IPOs are happening all the kind of initial context. Are you looking at the application landscape today like Etherfy like others and formulating thesises around these tokens such that you want to be owning the d the direct tokens which are going to be have have their protocols be exposed to this institutional wave the most like how are you selecting these assets to hold and be you know kind of a part of long term? >> Yeah, it's it's an excellent question. Um, it's, you know, a lot of what we do is trying to figure out how to how to figure out what's real. Um, and by the way, nothing I say here is financial advice. Just, you should never ever listen to me about anything, frankly.

Um, >> yeah, it's not like you created Google Maps or anything. >> So, yeah, don't just trust me. Don't listen to anything I say. And if if you disagree with that statement, go talk to my wife. So, um, you know, the way we think about it is basically, is there a real fundamental human need that's being solved? And and a lot of times you can kind of distill that down into a verb. Um, right. And so if there's like a verb and the thing becomes synonymous with a verb, then probably there's there's like some human need that's being met. Um, and so a is lend, right? It's just like lending is a thing that humans need to do. I have assets. I need to borrow against them. You have money. Like give me money and and let me do something productive with my money. Um, trade is

another one, right? And then you sort of zoom into that and you say, well, what are people trading? And you say, well, stable coins are a thing to your point. And so how do stable coins move around and what's the most efficient way for stable coins to move around? >> Um and so we we kind of take a it's almost like an ADIQ approach to it. Um which is like what are like the really base things that people really need to do? >> Um and what are the things that they need to trade and what are the things that are actually productive? Um and is there something actually productive happening underneath it? Um right because if there's nothing fundamentally productive happening then it is just a Ponzi flywheel and it's the token will implode. Um but if there's some fundamental new value getting created like somebody can take those assets and

do something productive with them then it's interesting. Um and you know today I think there are there are definitely are some things like that. I mean I think Ether 5 falls into this. I think a falls into this. Um I think you could look at you know setting aside again this is a separate question than the tokconomics right is the first question is well is it actually even useful like great tokconomics don't bail you out of the thing not being useful. Um but you know something like unis swap or curve right like there they're real things happening fluid um right these are these are like real innovations they're they're really interesting things that are happening where people need to trade them and you can look at the volume being real right it's it's hard when there are real fees being taken to manufacture volume because why would

somebody burn a lot of money um you know if there's actual fees being taken again the the tokconomics enter here right if there's some sort of token emission that's subsidizing it but um but that's where we start is just like is there a fundamental thing here and do does a basic spreadsheet model get you to some sort of outcome where you can say oh yeah like once the market is fundamentally driven and rational and that might take five or 10 years but once the market is is sort of rational in that way which of these things are a really good buy and I think if you think this way which is really hard because you have to be willing to like suffer pretty big draw downs along the way this is what would lead you to for example invest in Facebook when it goes public

or this would lead you to invest in Amazon um when it goes public or Google right it's like you look at the fundamentals of the thing and be like, okay, in the short term, people might overpric this or underpric this. But if you just look at the growth rates, you look at the network effects, you look at the real utility of the thing, and then you say, does that compound for 10 years? Um, you can end up in a pretty good place. Um, it's hard to do that though. It's, you know, if it were easy, then everybody would be rich, right? So, yeah, it's really, really hard to do that. But that's how we think about it at least. >> Well, Mike, everybody needs to save money and everybody needs to spend money. Um, Ether has been obviously crushing those two uh components.

>> Two great verbs, right? Yeah. >> This is like these are massive verbs in the world. >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. Mike. >> Yeah, for sure. No, I mean I think uh I'm I'm more excited about what we're building than uh than I ever have. I think you know when we started out and maybe I'll make a small point. you know, we started obviously with the staking product that a lot of people, you know, know us for, but uh this vision of creating the, you know, cryptonative neo bank or cryptonative banking alternative. Um, uh, was actually there, I mean, from two years ago when we first raised our series A, I mean, we have a a slide on it that, um, uh, somehow all of our investors, all 130 of them have kind of amnesia. I think they saw it at one point, but it was such a ridiculous

thing to say I think two two and a half years ago um that uh like they they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going with the staking thing. We don't we don't care about uh anything else." But I think what we built is like I mean it's it's just legitimate. It's legitimately better than anything else that's out there. Um the example I like to give is that if we were you know a financial institution uh with you know 12 billion in uh in assets um and the kinds of volumes that we're doing you know we'd need to have probably four or five maybe even 600 employees uh today Ether has 30 employees uh and so operating this kind of DeFi bank as we call it this cryptonative alternative to to a bank that gives you all the same you know

services is just over an order of magnitude cheaper. than operating a similar kind of financial institution. And the reason for that is there's I mean there's a multitude of reasons for it but uh one um because we're non-custodial the regulatory burden that we we we fall under is just substantially lower. Uh it means we can just operate we don't need to get banking licenses in a 100 different countries. Uh second of all, we we actually get a lot of stuff for free from the blockchain that other you know fintexs would have to uh uh would have to build out. I mean you'd have massive ops teams, you know, much larger compliance teams. So it just anyway it ends up being way way cheaper uh to operate and

what that means is we can just give way more rewards to our users. So that's why we can give you know 3% cash back on the card. we can give much higher reward rates on people's savings and assets and and of course it's plugged into DeFi and so you just get all these like really interesting opportunities that you wouldn't get anywhere. Um and so it's been huge. I mean we're we're already just three months out from launching the specifically our card program. I mean we're by far in a way the largest uh you know onchain card. I think we're like three times larger than the next one uh after us. But we're actually already larger than some of the exchange cards, for example, some of the CFI, you know, crypto cards. I think we'll be the largest within a couple months. I mean, at the rate that we're growing, uh,

these days, we're, you know, we're doing over a million a day in transaction volume, which in cryptoland payments, that's actually substantial. Um, I mean, it doesn't really get interesting until we're about 100x that size. you need to be doing, I think, >> you know, 5 10 billion uh uh a year before you can sort of really like credibly say you're you're you're a viable platform. But um but I mean I think we'll get there and I'm more confident of that than I ever have been. And I think that will be a demonstration hopefully among other things that you can actually build really dramatically like powerful durable businesses in crypto that you cannot do in trad. It's just physically impossible to build something like this in in trad.

>> Yeah. Obby, I'm curious from the kind of investment perspective on this neo bank concept. Um what you see is like like like how big could this get? Right. Plasma just came out yesterday with their or two ago with their mainet. This will come out next week. So it'll be kind of like last week they announced a card and a neo bank. Obviously, Ether has other uh competitors, but like the pie of the crypto users is like the main pie that, you know, everyone wants to get now because they're wealthy, but the real pie is like far larger than that. It's the whole world's population basically. Um, Obby, what is the like how how big do you think this could get from the investment perspective? and what are the what what made the timeline look like to achieve a larger outcome

here whether it be actual like the process or kind of how you think it might play out over like a chronological uh timeline. >> Yeah. So, actually there's um there's an interesting statement that you made there about do you actually need to go to the rest of the world? Um and and I think there's actually an argument that you don't and the argument that you don't is that what you have if you play this right is the emergence of an entirely new capital base. Um so just to put some numbers against it, right? Like you look at Bitcoin today, you look at Ethereum today, you look at the stable coin sort of dollar onchain uh numbers today. Um and I think all these numbers

go up by like 10x. Like I think you go from 250 billion in stables to two and a half trillion in stables. Um and I think those people are effectively crypto native. They could be all over the world, but sort of their first real exposure to any any sort of financial services is likely a crypto wallet. Um, if you look at just Bitcoin and ETH for a second, you know, you could roll Salana in here, you could roll some of these other chains in here, but let's just look at those two for a second. And you kind of do the back of the envelope math. You're like, well, how many Bitcoin wallets have something like a thousand BTC in them. Um, and how many um how many ETH wallets um have uh, you know, let's say on the order of, you know, $50 million worth of ETH or $25

million of ETH. Pick a number. And then you start applying forward multiples to these things. You're like, look, could Bitcoin get to a million dollars if it's as big as gold? And could it get to a couple million dollars? I think it could be bigger than gold because now it's gold on a phone. Could ETH be at least as big as silver? Could it could it get to gold? Um I think I actually think ETH there's there's an army that's better than gold, right? It's like for all the same reasons Bitcoin is better than gold. And these markets tend not to be like one person just wins, right? It's like there's Uber, but there's also DD, there's also right you have, you know, Grab, there's there's like these pretty big markets. So if you if you run the back of the envelope math on how many

wallets have let's say more than a thousand BTC, how many wallets have won $25 million of of ETH and you put these forward multiples on it, what all of a sudden you realize is there's something like 5 to 10,000 such wallets that you can find. And if you get to those numbers, you have 5 to 10,000 new billionaires that were created entirely because of ETH and Bitcoin um over the next decade. There's only 5,000 billionaires in the world, right? So that means like half the world's billionaires are cryptonative billionaires in a decade which is a really wild thing. I don't like I don't think people have processed this. This is like a tremendous upheaval in the power structure of society that like half the world's billionaires are because of one asset class. Um and this has downstream knock-on effects on

everything on you know politics on on governance on um you know family offices like how the money flows of the world work like it has some pretty big consequences. So I think you just look at that and you say, "Okay, well that's just that's just the billionaires. That doesn't even count like all the rest of the tale, right? Like how many new millionaires do you end up with?" Um, so I think there's an argument actually that that this like capital market that's going to have several trillion dollars of dollars in it and potentially 20 to50 trillion dollars of new wealth that's been created through the appreciation of the underlying assets. That in and of itself might be a large enough capital market that you never have to go quote unquote back to the real world. The analogy here would be if you look at the internet, there was an

argument that people used to make like 15 years about the internet of like oh like you get started on the internet and then you go mainstream, right? You get a TV show, you get a book, um you get a movie deal. And actually what happened was the opposite, right? Like the internet just ate everything. And so so the way it works now is you you like you if you're a comedian, you want to get a Netflix deal, right? Or like you go big on YouTube and you just monetize your own fan base. Like you don't get a TV show now. like the the world's biggest celebrities are, you know, like Mr. Beast and I show Speed and it's like Twitch and YouTube, right? And Tik Tok. Um, and so I think the same thing happens with crypto actually. Like the real market isn't that like, you know,

the the the real world somehow shows up. I think what actually happens is crypto eats the rest of the world and then everybody that actually has money is a crypto native.