The Biggest Shift In Crypto Investing Since ICOs with Anil Lulla & Fabrizio Giobardo

Transcript

obviously their I HS weren't perfect but what they did really well was distribution is this the new meta for launching tokens they're not even Capital Rich they're both community and capital poor and that's like the initial forming of community what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup today we have a special episode that is near and dear to many of our community's hearts as well as the recent lore of the crypto Community being fair es and the new experimentation of token launches so join today with Anil Lula and fabrio Anil is the CEO of Deli digital one of the founding partners of Deli Ventures if you don't know the backstory of Deli

Ventures uh maybe Anil can just give it to us real quick um Anil is used to work at deuts bank Bloomberg uh and studied Finance at Ruckers um and faio is was working at at deli with in some capacity there's it gets a little complicated there for me and then now has spun off and built this platform called Legion uh which is meant to basically solve this high fdv low float retail dumping kind of or VC dumping retail losing kind of phenomenon that we're seeing in crypto um so lot to unpack today and yeah guys thank you for for coming on and uh and being here today yeah damn I I love it I feel like

you just read off my LinkedIn profile and just took it from there but yeah excited to do this this is the first time that Fabo and I are on a podt together and first time I get to like really talk about Legion which is like probably one of the labs incubations I'm most excited about so yeah great to be here cool yeah thank you for having me very much looking forward to this and uh some good time ahead yeah sweet so I think what would be super helpful is to understand kind of the backstory of how of how this entire idea came about right so um I understand that Deli has like multiple divisions one of them being a kind of Consulting and early stage token development side if you will doing a lot of tokenomics uh protocol design things

like that and so you guys had a lot of experience building out that kind of side and working with these early stage teams um and then now we kind of spun out Legion out of Deli so what's kind of the backstory on Legion and why did this come about why did you guys feel that this was important to kind of spend time on yeah maybe yeah taking a back step like Deli has three main businesses right research uh which also houses our Consulting division Labs where we you know build and incubate projects um and then Ventures where we obviously invest in teams that we kind of like believe in are pushing crypto forward um honestly all three sides kind of like saw the need for this problem which was um token launches were just not going well and not reaching the right demograph of

people that we wanted to get the token in the hands of right and you know I I I know we're going to you know dive deep into this and Fabo is probably going to do a much better job than me but like time and time again we've seen how these like low float High ftvs have not only harmed just the communities and the token holders but it's harmed the project the teams um and honestly uh the investors right um obviously investors like benefit off a high high FV too but like a lot of these projects when you know uh VCS are investing in we actually believe them to you know make an impact on not just the crypto space but hopefully the world to mainstream um and you know getting like a quick you know return I think sometimes is a big detriment to the project actually

achieving its like long-term Vision um so through the you know through the Consulting division we've obviously worked with so many defi gaming uh infro projects and time and time again we've kind of seen not like we didn't have the best tools at our disposal to be able to create kind of like interesting token launches um more unique token launches and get it in the hands of you know not just institutional Capital but you know retail and um people who are just you know willing to contribute in ways other than just capital and we saw that on not just the Consulting side but obviously in a lot of the poros that we saw on the Venture side as well as the lab incubations and you know if you look back even two three years ago when we

first uh launched our first incubation um asort in Mars we kind of like came up with this lock drop right where which was like a new and Innovative way to be able to you know get capital in where people could lock uh capital for certain amount of time and you know provide liquidity and that get get like a discounted um or get some type of um you know investment in that project long term and I think those are the types of things that we always wanted to play around with but you can only you know you only have so much flexibility um on a token by token um you know kind of like aspect and the real way that we realized that we had to go was like actually build a platform for this right um and that's really where you know

Fabrizio kind of came in and uh you know we we found you know the perfect team to kind of like really take this Vision into you know to actually execute and to the masses yeah definitely I think I could probably chime in there a little bit to say like I've been on the founding side before I've been an investor I've been Network participant I think this is something that's like super super close to my heart growing up I didn't have a lot of the the same normal opportunity and I think from that kind of like I've always resonated with the underdog having to work you know 10 times as harder just to get into the same level pegging and I think like the whole thing that attracted me to to about three is the ideas like if you have internet connection if you got a

desire you can get involved doesn't necessarily matter you know race religion gender age location put all that at the door if you're bringing value you can contribute push the space forward you can get involved and I think like that for me is something that like I said before very near and dear to my heart and definitely a core problem that we're tackling with Legion yeah and I think we'll kind of get more into exactly how Legion works but just so that for the rest of the show in this next period our community has an understanding basically Legion is trying to make early stage investment opportunities more more accessible what is what is currently only available for um you know well-connected Angels or Venture Capital firms with a lot of money Legion is trying to bring to the everyday folk um and you know who has

some skills and Fab we've talked about this right like uh it's not just like actual Financial Capital that a lot of these teams need in fact like most of them can get money from different VCS or different uh investors what they need is more different uh more like actually creative capital and Social Capital um and different types of contributions and that's kind of like where we see Legion efforts come in as well as just kind of this broad idea of public sales so like broadly speaking Fab I'm curious also ail how you guys are thinking about the new meta that we're seeing of launching tokens basically recently the like the one that sticks out to me is Anisha did their sale on Echo they did less than

their their series a valuation um and it sold out very quickly and I think that this meta is going to just continue as teams that I speaking to are like hey like should we do a public sale on coin list or echo or or Legion now right like like people are really starting to think about this and it's not just like something that that's like optional it seems so like is this the new meta for launching tokens for for getting Community distribution and um you know if that's not all of it then like what is the new way to think about how uh Founders should be launching their tokens I could probably try me in a little bit and then I know could take it from there um I think like you guys you guys have both mentioned the the same key word uh in the last two two chats

right it's it's a r distribution so the real power of tokenization is coordinating real world Behavior at scale but if that token is not in the right hands then it's useless I mean to take an extreme example it's like you can have a token that could be valued multi-billion dollars or $1 if it's only one person holding it doesn't necessarily matter right um so crypto is essentially an abstract incentive machine incentivizes particular behavior um you know most of the people are involved in the community in the space are in that abstract incentive machine um but yeah it really comes down to distribution I think with like The Meta the low float high fdv it's like he said before teams get Capital rich but not necessarily Community Rich stand up Community poor um and I think that you know merat actually talks about this in

like the mcoin super cycle where it's idea of like free cult labor right um call it free cult labor call it you know people just want to contribute to a particular cause or some psychology to go into and why that might be a reason um but again I think projects are getting to a place now where they realize like okay it's not just about having a lot of money we need to kind of bootstrap a community we create an entire ecosystem around it right that's actually what helps us get past the initial adoption not just about having good deck good Tech but it's about having the people to push that forward um so I think I can dig deeper into that and I can go into that but I think I N if you want to maybe talk with the macro and like the Venture Capital side of

this current mattera yeah well one thing before I dive into that is you mentioned like you know a lot of these teams get like Capital rich and Community poor I think one thing that you know and that was probably the biggest like hurdle that when we were thinking about you know what Legion would look like or how we could even go to market with something like this like you know what's the incentive for these teams to do it because if they're getting Capital Rich you know a lot of them will choose that over um you know just like launching a project and not getting a high fdp ever right um and one thing that I think you got to realize too is a lot of these teams they may seem Capital Rich at some point but by the time they invest and by the time they you know actually get

liquidity on their tokens that chart just looks like you know down and to the right so they don't they're not even Capital Rich uh they're both community and capital poor and I think that's why a lot of these Founders and teams you know especially on the Consulting side we hear this time and time again where they've seen um what's happened to teams that you know go with that low float high fdv and they don't even net out to like what you know I think people think insiders are really I think you know of course a lot of VCS who are able to sell even at 50 60% discounts at high ftvs are the real like winners of this current model of the status quo um so I think that is something that's like important to think about and yeah you know to Andy to your question like is

this the new meta like I I really hope so and I think this isn't isn't something that I have to hope it's something that you're going to continuously see experimentation on so it's been awesome to see what KOB doing with Eko um obviously we're really excited about what Fabrizio and the team are doing with Legion um and same thing with like what Kane's doing with infinex right I think these are three like really solid options and I think what um I'm excited for are teams that choose to do you know a combination of all three or maybe use two of them to try and get exactly what Fabrizio was saying earlier like a diff a differentiated distribution to maybe a demographic that wouldn't have that opportunity um you know even six months a year ago um so yeah I'm really excited about us like continuously experimenting and trying

this because I think some of the projects that do get distribution to maybe investors and holders that now will become you know very active community members can actually move the needle uh way more than even most of the VCS that you kind of hear of today a quick example of that right it's like you can go back to the Ico days where um obviously their icos weren't perfect U but what they did really well was distribution and because everyone sort of comes off and gets started on the the right the same level um we kind of talked about like how do you form this like cult like Community or like really strong user base it's kind of three things right it's like you need to give upside to that Community ideally significant upside there needs to be some sort of effort attribution which means people need to believe that their

contributions are actually contributing to the success of the project and then the third one there needs to be some sort of Mission Vision or person or cult leader or project to sort of align around right and that's like the initial forming of the community obviously there's no like perfect formula you plug this in you get at the other side on a math formula uh but like with these particular condition itions you significantly increase your chance of creating that cult like community and if you think back it's like SNS Spartans or like you know the Thor Chads or like the link Marines right like it was these groups of people that actually enabled you know the tech to sort of not only scale but last multiple cycles and I think just like hitting the nil in the head before what ail says is like there's that initial blip where yeah it

might be like you know super high valuation you might be temporarily Rich for a little bit um but I think it's like it really kills your long-term um success in like ideal if project and Founders are achieving what they set out to do right it should be like an up only chart after they achieve what what they what they want to do at scale yeah I think there's there's a lot of there's a lot of Dynamics at play that are like uh from those from those three points you know you could hit all three of those points um but still the the lack of attrition to the value of the crypto tokens today versus the fundamentals that they have are still like disconnected such that like it's still very mimetic in the sense that it's all very speculative driven um and so like

so so I think that's starting starting lower and working your way up will will with these like three core Three core uh pillars Fab that's like that is how you're gonna build a community from like I don't know maybe a 20 50 million market cap or 100 million to like a billion or something right um but I think like like to get to grow more and more that you know there's there's a lot of other factors at play but just for starting I think that's the right kind of perspective but it makes me immediately think that like while Anil is very excited about this and I think a lot of people are in the space I also think that like for VC's it's gonna get way harder like I think that VC's kind of had an easy run um you know and like

um you know ail you guys took your your Venture side from like you know a million bucks to to over a billion at some point now I think last you told me was like a couple hundred million or something I'm like you know I can't take anything away from you guys but the reality is that that meta that that we have been playing in for the last like three years has been very much like if you were early you got the upside like it's it's hard for me to see now the market being so um like basically like what I'm getting at here is I think this meta is going to crush VC returns because I don't think every project is going to be a winner yeah yes and no it it's already become way harder by way to

to your point I I also think like at the end of the day and you know crypto Twitter is like a funny place like I I think you know they like seeing it as like a movie where you know maybe these VCS and these insiders are always bad guys and like retail is always a good guy and everything like that and like it it's simply not the case right um I think you know a lot a lot of the best investors in the space they want their project to get the best distribution possible and do it in the fairest way possible um and that's why I think you hear a lot of VCS constantly talk about how I see iOS were special days now were icos perfect um obviously they have you know their own drawbacks but I think like you know allowing you know allowing

the opportunity for people or contributors to get in at lower valuations and earlier into projects and not have to buy on the market um when you know something list at you know multi- unicorn valuation when you know it's it's you know potentially pre-product um it it kind of makes no sense um and honestly again what I was saying earlier is like you know for a lot of the projects that we invest in they need they need more than just mercenary speculative Capital to make that product work right and and um if those users that are supposed to be contributors are having to buy in and then get dumped on then it's a loss for everyone involved right other than obviously people dumping but still like

that really hurts the future it kills the future of that project um so I think this is something that actually like you know yes it's definitely gotten harder um you know for the metas have definitely gotten harder it's way harder to be a VC today I think you need to be like a big brand name VC that has a lot of deal Flats so really like um uh succeed or like a very deep in the niche like contributor VC um but I think the ones in the middle are going to be harmed the most but I realistically think that um you know if this leads to projects having better launches and you know these charts kind of reverse rather than being you know down to the right and hopefully up and to the right um at at much fairer valuations I think that's a win for everyone involved um and it's

more sustainable more resilient and not just like a quick you know pump and dump like you've seen with a lot of these charts um over the last like 12 to 18 months yeah I think I'd reinforce that by saying like at Legion we we don't it's not it's definitely not VC versus retail right we like to think about it as like value ad versus not value ad some VCS are absolute Legends right they've got brand they've got Network they've done it plenty times before uh they can help you get in conferences Etc they connect you with the right people um some VCS are less than desirable right some some retail right absolute Legend you know they'll go out and creating meme packs for you or they'll be pushing your product or they'll be personally onboarding a hundred of their F friends and family um it's like some

retail just want to flip a coin so it's like how do you optimize for these value ad Network participants whether they be VC or retail um to optimize again for your project we have a saying at Legion much like you know you start your startup your first 10 employees to find your company culture forever your first 50 hundred thousand token holders to find your community culture forever so if you can sort of coordinate that to to ensure that it's very high quality right then you end up with a significantly higher quality Community you end up with a ideally significantly higher chance of success yeah well said and I specifically like that token holder part um you know I think that I think that that that the link Marines are a really good example of that one of them you know that you said I was a part of that

back in the day it's just the most DJ and fun thing ever and the thing went from like 10 cents or I I don't know I got I think I enter around like like a dollar and then things going from like a dollar to $50 or whatever was just the most ridiculous thing and and now and now you you look back and like wow link is still kind of quiet like that like that initial culture and Community is still very much there right and so I think that's super accurate yeah yeah you can't you can't Fork that right there's no easy uh know definitely can't all right so we've we've talked about like the broad idea here which I think is like super important for people to understand why the is happening like uh without this understanding of the lore

of kind of the history of of the way Capital formation crypto has been um you know has been done up till now you know I think that like Legion wouldn't be as impactful but now we kind of understand that so let's talk about like how Legion really works so um on the rollup we have our our little ref link our little sign up link people have been signing up so far um they they come on to the platform uh and from from what I understand uh you guys are vetting different projects at least in this initial stage to uh come on to the platform and offer some amount of tokens or some goal to raise at a at a certain valuation um and then basically the members of the community

have to apply to be able to have access into that round and then the project can kind of Select People based on their Legion score or which communities they want involved um and so it's basically this this way of like telling projects like hey guys like we're going to give you the opportunity to raise from kind of a pick who you want or pick a pick a group of of different kind of investors um and then for for the actual investors themselves they want to build up this profile to show that they're valuable um and to show that you know that that they've been in the space for a while or that they're a Dev or that they have onchain and onchain footprint and basically we're trying to like like matchmake here between quality early stage low

valuation projects and early and good um Capital contributors as well as uh skilled kind of like community members um yeah I mean that's like my understanding what did I miss and kind of like like how does this really work from like a a nuts and bolts perspective yeah to be honest you did a fairly good job um I think that's pretty much mostly spoton I think like you mentioned like first principles we are form that connects high value Network participants with high quality projects now we kind of can get into a can of worms and we can dig a little bit deeper but the question might come up like okay what is a highquality network

participant right and if you ask every single project they're gonna have different definitions of this right so you might be like a super dgen per de right and you just want to optimize for the most dgen per STS trading people that are going to be on the platform actual users um be super familiar you know be able to go like really deep maybe loves trading right like that's what you want to optimize for where you might be like a really Dev Centric I don't know like roll up particular Tech that you want to optimize for high quality developers so as mentioned before Legion we take the stance on rather than like having some well I guess how it currently happens you don't actually know who you're selling tokens

to when you bring it to the public market the private Market's good like that right you have this two-way optin um so essentially what does it brings that two-way optin that you get in the private Market but is able to do it at scale and what you mentioned before is like for a lot of these pre- liquid token rounds so before the token's actually Gone live um these charges can bootstrap their Community we optimize not necessarily for you know who can invest the fastest right because that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be a good value at netor to a project right we essentially collect a bunch of information it's up to the investors they can come they can connect their Twitter their GitHub wallets whatever they like to do um and from that we essentially build out this quantitative score called the legion score it's got a

lot of subcomponents to it um obviously just purely quantitative information it's not ideal for determining if someone's good or not we also have this other qualitative layer um where we go down to some more like in detailed algorithms like I trust no relation to Ian lay um but you can think about it as if I really trust Anil Anil trusts Andy I've never met Andy before I should be able to trust Andy by some function of how much I trust Anil and how much Anil trusts Andy right so you can kind of see this like social graph of feedback where who's vouching for who tied in with quantitative information tied in and layered on top with this continuous feedback loop where you know if I come and I say to a project hey I'm gonna help out with XYZ and I do absolutely

nothing right then something needs to happen there where I'm gonna either be reviewed poorly or I'm not going to have the same access to Future deals or I might be you know an absolute Anon person and say hey you know I'm happy I want to grind I want to hustle and I help you out and you absolutely love it you could be like okay this person is absolute Legend and that should help me and my status grow over time so Legion would not be possible without this base reputation layer and this continuous feedback loop right I think crypto fundraisers probably forever in particular in Ico days has had an accountability problem right both on the project side there's been plenty of projects that raised a ton of money and then said hey we're already rich right we didn't even have to deliver anything put into the foundation and just live

off the foundation um there's been plenty of investors that said hey we'll promise you XYZ but maybe they completely go missing they write the check never hear from them again um so essentially as mentioned before we're trying to optimize create this virtuous feedback loop where you're you're optimizing for high value Network participants not just in a single sale but over multiple sales continue to build out your portfolio your pro um your profile and this way projects can have confidence to say hey I want to optimize for this particular group these people have really good feedback uh you can put put in this um application if you want you can put a little cover letter in to say hey the rollup for example has a new project I'm super passionate Andy I've been a Community member since day one I've watched every single one of your pods I've mitted

every nft it's like I really want to get involved you might see that like fantastic we can give you some allocation um so that's kind of like the structure again just to break it down we're essentially a Marketplace that connects these high value Network participants we Define high value Network participants with our Legion score and the qualitative feedback loops with high quality projects right now this is a very manual process we're speaking to a lot of different teams um they're essentially going through a similar process like Deli IC would go through to ensure that they are high quality because we're not able just to list any single project we want to ensure like the projects that are on Legion are of the best quality they have a higher chance of success obviously you can never guarantee success but we do try to optimize for that um and we'll

continue to grow this out we've got some ideas on how to do this at scale how to do this a little bit more open but for now this is going to be a fairly centralized process yeah maybe what one thing I'd add there too is like what's so exciting for me about Legion is like today Legion is the worse it's going to be than tomorrow you know like it it it keeps getting better every day right so you know while we're recording this pod Legion is actually the worst version of Legion that it can be and what's so cool about this is it gets better with every project that Launches on it and every user that signs up because that information kind of gives not just reputation to that one user but where that user fits in uh you know in in the whole kind of audience

and and same thing for other people oh today I might be number 12 but oh there's like you know a bunch of new users that come in I may drop down at 30 or 40 and that actually provides more value to those projects that are coming to come rais on Legion right um and you know I know we're gonna you know dive into more about like the future of Legion and like how much better it can get over time but I think that's an important thing to kind of take note of too and I think the last thing I'd say here too is like even though Legion is is you know constantly getting better and today it's the worst it's going to be um the cool part about it is it still has this bootstrapping fly wheel effect right and what is that that that's like

you know the earlier that people sign up the more time you have to build up your reputation and you know um we are going to have you know deals that launch on that soon can't really like reveal when but you know keep an eye out on Twitter and everything like that but as soon as these deals kind of come out you like it's going to be easier for you to get an access to this deal in the first few months than maybe a year or two when hopefully Legion is like widespread platform that has basically everyone crypto Twitter on it right so I think that's kind of like a really cool part where you have that boot shopping effect but as um you know as like the the like Alpha as like the value of being early goes down the value of the actual platform is going up so um I think

that's a really interesting way to think about Legion as well yeah tldr get on early yeah I mean uh when um when Fab told me that uh Mirad was super interested into Legion because they were aligned on the like way of raising Capital uh and the way that the space should go I knew that this thing was gonna just blow up the rollup Community is is early so you guys are uh give a big thank you to Fab and um yeah I mean one reason why I particularly wanted to like get this going Fab as well was because I didn't I've always wanted to do something like this but I never wanted to uh do The Syndicate like I

never wanted to be like okay I have my Syndicate everybody pulling money and then like I get to pick where the money goes or like you get to pick what deals you want to get into in The Syndicate and like there's all this there's all like like I'm curious why you guys didn't go down The Syndicate model like why did you guys do this model where it's like more like being a connector of the two entities and giving the power if you will to the project to pick who they want to invest in in a sense uh versus like this like pulled uh pulled Syndicate model where it's like you're really just working through one like speaker head or one leader of this group uh rather than kind of working with each individual yeah um I think uh I could definitely take that question so I mean

like the Crux of it is that there's too much variance in syndicates there's also not that many syndicates in the world that have been successful I think there would be I don't know hundreds of thousands maybe have tried um I can think of like cluster capital and dwes capital are probably the two most successful ones that are still around today but they do things very different uh but most syndicates fall apart and that's because you know you might get promised like there is this like one head leader people are kind of pulling money together they're like they don't really care about the project nine out of 10 times they never even interface with the project at all and you might get sold like okay this person might help you but you have no idea who everyone else is right and they don't have a direct Rel ship with you so

sometimes you know you could get lucky and a Syndicate could be an absolute Legend full of people that are happy to contribute their time and and get involved uh but most of the time you know you get a Syndicate where you know a particular person might have a very small amount of capital that you thought you were going to get involved might not even be enough capital for them to be interested in it um and then you know the people that are in that Syndicate might be just looking for a quick flip so as mentioned before it's like if we're trying to optimize and have a higher degree of confidence that the people on Legion are going to add value there needs to be some sort of feedback mechanism and there needs to be some sort of direct relationship you know you can think about this as you go into like

a telegram group right if you just post in a telegram group and say hey everyone can you help me with XY Z you are if you take that approach and then the other approach is you go direct DM every single person in the telegram group say hey I need help from you right you're gonna get a significantly higher return on replies and action with the direct one-on-one relationship then you are just like posting to a giant group um and I think like everyone you would have done that we're all hanging out telegram probably 25 hours of the 24 hours a day um so you guys would have seen this in action and I think like while it's kind of like a crude example it's a very similar concept here so just to tie it up I think for Legion to be super successful you need to have these

direct one-on-one relationships uh projects need to have a higher degree of confidence on who exactly is on the other side of that uh what value that they say they're going to bring and there needs to be some sort of um feedback mechanism the final point I'll say here you can also think about it as a mental model is each person has essentially Social Capital right this social capital typically you know could be in like how much clout you have on Twitter or how many people think you're an absolute gigabrain or whatever it might be right individually reputation is your social capital and if you go out and do something like completely stupid I don't know like I don't know rug a meme coin for a small amount of money um you know that like you Splash all your Social Capital right and that essentially like cuts off all your

opportunities in the future if you do that behind a brand or you do that behind a Syndicate it's not necessarily that bad they might be like oh that Syndicate was bad but you don't necessarily know the people so again just to tie it home here is like individuals are significally more accountable to other individuals on a one toone relationship as opposed to this group dynamic of a Syndicate it's too much variance in what you're going to get back too hard to um like Merit too hard to keep accountable yeah damn I I I really love that the way that fio answered that I'll probably go in more of a different direction because I do think you know Deli were um early investors in um Syndicate which is since then pivoted to be more infrastructure software but they were trying something

similar way back um I'm actually a big fan of what Kobe's doing with Ekko I think it's actually like beautifully designed and by the way I think like they um there different demographics that would prefer different platforms so for example um if someone doesn't want to be an active contributor if someone doesn't want to constantly you know be able to try and figure out value ad and wants to you know just kind of get exposure to maybe say somebody some's backs then um Legion is probably not the best platform for you right um and it's awesome that something like Echo does exist um one thing that I think uh fabrisio brings up you know constantly is this like um topic of reputation and you know what's funny is I think like what fabrisio and the team are trying to do is actually the hardest version of

building this because like reputation is you know very hard to kind of like build over time um especially on a new platform the benefit that crypto provides though is you know Legion can get you know got started a you know I think the um Legion score is now public for anyone to kind of go and get their own Legion score this week right for Vio what's beautiful about that is even though the platform just launched they're using so much uh information from onchain from social from GitHub and stuff that can allow to build a reputation score from day one and what's amazing about that too is um over time they're going to keep adding uh you know new things that you know build a more more kind of like concrete form of what that person's reputation is right it's

almost like you know a bunch of blind people uh feel feeling around the elephant right and Legion ideally gives you the best vision of that elephant as a whole now the last thing I'd say is what I think is really exciting about Legion is I think you're going to see uh a few select people who M who make their reputation from their activeness on Legion right so you're going to get a lot of people who sign up but maybe I don't know a couple dozen people will constantly be investing in every deal but also end up being the most value add investor from Legion or just generally in that deal and then uh you know that feedback loop is going to go back where those uh projects that raise V Legion

will kind of give that feedback and say hey this guy is this guy or girl is really good right and then over time that person will start getting more and more deal flow in a way that maybe they couldn't have got by just you know posting in telegram groups or Twitter and stuff uh in a way that other projects will be able to see um so I think that's also like a beautiful part um it's definitely the hardest way I'd say to to kind of like build something like this but I think it's like the most valuable way if it succeeds yeah that'll be interesting to watch a uh a a young contributor going from Legion 5K check to uh uh large Angel slash like VC or something or or some like contributor

Arc right uh um one thing is as well ail that you kind of hinting to I know this is the first pod that we're able to re really go into the details of Legion is this is this metalx project that you guys are working on that kind of goes hand inand with Legion um I I'm am a complete Noob as to what metalex is I think our community probably is as well so kind of like how do these go hand in hand and how like what is metalx and then you know like how does it improve um Legion safe is moving the world's GDP onchain with the introduction of safet safe is taking this to the next step very soon check out n.s. Global to learn more about how safe is moving the

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modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone. Finance to find out more yeah man for re maybe I can go first here cuz I'm I'm super excited I think like metal X is the most underappreciated project in crypto right now and I'm super biased because it is obviously a deli LS incubation but it is this like onchain like uh you know legal Law Firm that Gabriel Shapiro is heading for us right um and you know I feel like most of your listeners probably do no Gabe um you know big character uh very active in the deli chats um very strong strongly opinionated I think he's like you know hands down the best lyer in

this space um especially from how deep in the trenches he really is um so I think some of your listeners um and you know I know you know the role up audience is super deep very similar to the like the deli member um some of you may have seen this concept of borgs what what are borgs it's something that Gabe has been championing for a while now and metalx is a way to bring those to life a borg is basically um you know a a dow that connects to the real world that Gabe has designed um in a way where you know Gabe has probably worked as a lawyer with more Dows than any other lawyer in the space and um you know not just for personal reasons but Gabe just like is always ripping his hair out because of the frustrations of dealing

with Dows that just don't you know not only do they not connect to the real world they have no intention to or have no idea how to like navigate it and the thing is a lot you know just like in um engineering you get a lot of technical debt you get a lot of like legal and compliance and Regulatory debt um by operating a dow and not kind of connecting in the real world which is just not realistic in the long term especially if you know crypto is going where we all wanted to see so he kind of has constructed these borgs and you've seen um certain protocols like Lio for example um and curve um that have started launching uh and transitioning to these Borg structures um and you know please go on metalx uh the Twitter or gabes uh Twitter to learn more about

this um I think it's something that he's super passionate about and honestly is something that's like um I'm super proud that Dela has been able to like help make his dreams come true because I think it is going to move the needle for um Dows and crypto at General now where does metalex fit into what you know we're doing with Legion um I personally view them as like brother sister company so what's beautiful about it is you know the way you can think about what Gabe is doing right now and and you know both of these projects started um in the last like 12 months um and like publicly came out of stealth but they've been IDE ideas and within Deli for you know a while now years and what's beautiful about it is what gab's currently doing is working with you know some of our

poros um some of the pro projects that we've either consulted for helped incubate and he's going uh you know down the list and saying what do you guys need help with from a legal standpoint um is it you know whether it's like data that partnership is it Grant agreements is it getting contractors um you know um all the above right and much more um and then what he's doing is basically with uh his uh team is essentially working on that in an unskilled kind of like legal traditional legal agency type way right of like hammering out their contracts figuring out how they can connect to the real world as well as be crypto native and then what's the fun part about metalx and you know what the labs team really does at Deli is automating that and building out it on chain and now

what's beautiful about that is all of these and this is why you know earlier I said today is the worst day you know is the worst Legion is going to be to you know tomorrow is the worst legion's going to be after after that day too is all these features are going to start being built as um outlets for this um you know Launchpad that Legion really is this Marketplace um between these two like you know projects as well as like you know uh value ad contributors and now what's awesome about that is all of a sudden these projects not only get this distribution that we're constantly uh talking about but they also are able to kind of get everything set up the right way as a borg that connects to the real world and have that all automated on chain in a compliant way um that is

like the end Vision um and so I'm super excited about like both of these in tandem being built out um because I think both teams are like handling it in like the right way but like the marriage of the two is something that I think is going to like blow people's minds and um you know it's something I'm very excited about yeah I'll probably just chime in three quick things there one I'm a permeable both on Metal X and Gabe two I think that we haven't really touched on this podcast is actually is pretty important and why like why now as opposed to you know in 2020 or vice versa is um like obviously icos blew up everyone probably be pretty familiar with that um after the 21A Dow hack report from the SEC you saw a sort of new regulation come in and you know the

Ico landscape basically did I don't know like a Luna lunar truck direct almost direct to zero um and you know that sort of led to where we are today and I think like just touch on the point we talked about in the beginning is like a lot of this like you know mistakes of the low float high fdv that Founders are making they it takes years to play out right and I think that's why we're seeing this like come to fruition now there's new regulation coming in Europe it's called Mika worku and crypto assets regulation this essentially you know revised the whole idea of distribution to um like I mean in Europe they call them qualified and non-qualified investors ACC credit is an American term but essentially anyone can be um part of that so to tie that back in it's like as mentioned

before I've been a Founder before still a Founder um the one of the like three biggest pain points is like getting your legal stuff your ducks in a row ensuring like you have the best legal setup ensuring that you know you're not gon to end up in a like a Corp battle with someone for years right because like building a product and making it successful is hard enough try to tie in like all the legal overhead and legal battles like that's enough to pull a team apart and so what um Anil touched on was like the approach Metal X are taking now super cool they've already started building out that automated part called the metal X OS um definitely ask Gabe about it try to get involved it's super cool Tech U we're already looking at the Integrations into how they would fit in but it would be my absolute dream

if you know project can come to Legion at the pre- liquid token round um they can have their Borg automatically set up they can have the distribution set up they can raise from high value Network participants they can raise from Venture Capital with the same terms maybe better terms on the on Legion platform who knows after the project um they can continue to bootst at that Community as things change and legal setups change right essentially you know the borgs are built in a way that it's open to that flexibility and then you know all that overhead of legals taken care of like they're even like metalx OS is even considering things around vesting not just like okay does it technically work and do we distribute the tokens right people but it takes into account like what tax jurisdiction are you in how do we optimize for that right and I think

like a lot of people like Founders especially not even thinking about these intricate details so to have that kind of taken care of in an automated process and to tie that in with a capital formation platform like Legion I think would be absolutely fantastic yeah I mean a couple things there um first one being as a as a fellow Community member I encourage um the projects to be launching on Legion at lower than their series a at the very least um so I mean come on uh second is I was curious about and this is what when we had spoke Fab originally I was curious about some of the legal ramifications of kind of how this works but I understand that everybody has to kyc on Legion right and so you guys have

that that kind of baked in um and then yeah based on your Juris iction as well as the licensing that you guys have you guys can offer a certain bit of products so and then with the addition of met of metalx you know this takes it even to the next level with regards to automations and things so you that's like the big question mark right for like or that's at least like the the very easy scapegoat as to why these projects are like we've done this in the kind of high FTV low float or like the this uh the same model over and over but I think that we're getting to a point now where like project can feel relatively comfortable launching in this more like Ico or public sale way you know I mean platforms like coin list and others have been doing this for a while

um but yeah I mean it seems like you guys have that cover which I think was like one of my bigger questions um so so I appreciate you guys kind of tackling that I think my last like general idea here unless fa there's anything else in particular that you feel like we've missed is just like what is the what is the next several months like for Legion for our community who's going to be involved there um what is the best way for our community to like take advantage of Legion to be active um and to make sure that that um you know that we can get access to Deals and that we're all set up and in the know for when deals come online um yeah and then any other kind of key points that I may have missed that you want to talk about yeah

definitely um so I guess just to hit those in Reverse maybe I think it's nice to do kind of like what's the what's the complete feature look like I mean a few months is a long time in crypto two years is even longer um I think like there's a more pure idea that we kind of think about today where again this is down the line um we talk about Capital formation right people typically think of like Financial Capital formation you typically have a startup essentially you raise Financial Capital you take that Financial Capital you turn into production Capital what does that mean means you just basically take the money raised and hire a bunch of people um ideally they produce some sort of value and that creates returns for investors right the really cool and unique thing about crypto right I find like there is

a lot of people that aren't necessarily financially Capital rich but they might be intellectually capitally Rich creative Capital Rich Etc um I would really love to see a place where um Legion sort of becomes again in the future now you can leverage just like reputation layer and understanding like who's adding value or not uh maybe rather than people contributing that Financial Capital um to have the upside and project they might come and you know contribute in a different type of way right so then all of a sudden now you're creating this like space where you know talented individuals can come together and push these ideas forward um and ideally bring them to life I do think that there's like a large underserved Market of like not the you know unicorn and decorn projects U but that's sort of like mid- tier to I don't know 10 mil 20

mil um smaller sort of class that there's a lot of value to be created there there's a lot of interesting things to be pushed forward there like the D size stuff or whatever it is um I'd like to see that kind of come uh come to light but again stuffing back today because is where we are we're cooking today we're building today um I think like the first step is definitely to get onto the legion platform generate your score um we obviously need to take things in a fully compliant way um so depending on your jurisdiction um you may may not be able to see particular um projects that are on the platform again there nothing we can really do about it um here obviously we're working with a bunch of different lawyers and trying to push that forward um but it is what it

is we have to play by the rules as they stand today of course we'll we'll be lobbying to change them um like I said I think like m is a really positive step in the right direction um again that's EU focused but it's just going to be what it's going to be um and then yeah once you're on the legion platform we've got a few things um that we'll play we'll play around with like some social Dynamic stuff can of course invite I think up to five people um today and uh again it's not just like a standard like ref link there you actually get to inherit some of the the trust um that you know these people have some their Legion score and vice versa you're essentially giving them some of your so you're kind of vouching for them in a way as well um apart from that stay

tuned we will uh not necessarily announce the the first few launches but if you are if you do qualify for them given jurisdiction and you're on leer platform they will be there uh maybe by the time this pod comes out I'm not not sure the day yeah I'd say um yeah I I I'd say like definitely sign up and just connect your wallets I I think maybe another thing for breia to like go over is like the security layer of like collecting uh connecting multiple wallets to kind of have the best score possible um I know that's a question that you've probably gotten a lot maybe you can quickly answer that yeah definitely I think we're we're uh we're we three to R uh hyper hyper uh hyper aware of you know UPS SEC and and security so I think like realistically

we um we built the first pass of this was that we were like storing all different wallet data obviously going mention this could be quite a Honeypot of information um so we ended up essentially implementing this mechanism where for example for your wallets when you go to connect you're going to have two options you can connect it as a scoring only wallet um now a scoring only wallet essentially just gets scored stored only you never keep your plain text wallet address stored there's um like a salt hash mechanism um like a global salt Global hash Etc it's apply to these stored completely a separate Place separate location um obviously we've gone through a few audits now um and then you can also connect it as a scoring and an investor wallet if you do

that then you can actually use that wallet on the platform um if you score if you're connecting just a score only wallet address essentially it becomes encrypted you can't use it for normal functions you only use it for a score you can always disconnect it anytime and then that's that's gone um reconnect it sometime in the future um everything we've done on Legion not just the scoring is taking this sort of opt-in choice so even when you're inputting your information you've got a little button in the bottom right hand corner you know do you want to to be available like publicly do you want it to be available to projects only or do you want it to be available to essentially no one but you um so everything you put in there um you know you've got Grant enough control over that there's a mechanism on there as well it's called

your investor profile so I encourage everyone when you do generate your legion score also fill out your investor profile you know what's your Min check size look like your max check size look like what's your main value ad why is that your main value ad um are you a passive investor uh or do you like to be active or you like to get involved in some particular way as mentioned before though every single bit of information it's up to you if you want to display public private or to projects only yep and I'd say like on my end um what I'm doing is essentially having one real investor wallet and then using all my other wallets just to like only for score right um to to hopefully have the highest score possible um I think like yeah definitely go connect it play around with that it uh play around with

it and then give us feedback like would love to hear um you know from you guys what other you know achievements you think are valuable to the projects raising um or that you just want to show off right I think this is like another cool thing it's like a way to flex um if you have a high Legion score um you know should make like a game out of it um so yeah excited to kind of see who ends up with the high score right now I think it's Alex from nanson so uh that's why I got to go back and connect all my wallets to get higher than him yeah yeah definitely yeah I think um we're saying just before the Pod actually I saw someone original Punk Minter also a crazy achievement one of the first 1,000 wallets to make a main net transaction

on ethereum extremely bullish on whoever that might be um and yeah you can play around see if people have made information public they can check it out same with the achievements again that's of in you need to make a public people to see it but yeah I mean it's definitely a bit of fun but also helps like JW off your personality for for what it might be and I think Anil definitely hit the nail on the head we'd love feedback love to get some suggestions funny ones um we've got things like the tech believer if you bought usdc under 97 cents when the Silicon Valley Bank collapse was going down like there's an achievement for that after you know a certain date there's achievement for that um you Meed you know rad bro for that so come get involved and and find out what you have

yeah I mean I think we have like about 120 or 150 people from the rollup Community already on the platform so if they're got if I'm sure they'll probably watch this video as they uh as they've already taken the pleasure of signing up so if you guys are still listening here I would definitely get in there and make sure your your profile is is updated and um yeah get ready for this for the first couple deals um I think when this video goes out hopefully the first deal will be ready on the platform so yeah guys really really excited about what you guys are doing excited to be kind of partnering up and teaming up uh with with uh Legion here in this capacity and um getting the rollup Community involved

we've been trying we've been trying to figure out something for our community for a while that is like along the lines of this they've been asking for like how do we get into early stage deals do you share deal flow you know people have been asking like you know you you'll get some of like the uh you know larger check size type of community members just basically ask for like Angel allocations and then it's kind of hard to get them in because they don't really have much of like a presence but then they have the capital and then you have like the smaller people that have more of a Twitter presence or or have like a better understanding or more skills but then they can't get in so it's like like this perfect mix I think for our community and we've been waiting for it

for some time um and so I'm really excited to roll this out and thank you guys for taking the time today to explain why you guys are building this um another awesome Deli product one of many so congratulations there fellas and um thank you so much for coming on and being here yeah appreciate the time Andy always fun yeah yeah I appreciate it also hats off to you super high quality Community uh very technical and uh asking the right questions a lot of them are already engaging with Legion and uh they're they're bloody good and also getting very high scores so again hats off thanks for having us and yeah hopefully this is start of completely not only just changing the go

baby yeah yes I agree Fab the broader vision is is what counts so um one step at a time and guys thank you so much it's been a pleasure is