Big Tech Earnings, DeFi United and Pump Fun’s Token Burn

Transcript

This episode is brought to you by Fidelity Crypto. You'll hear more about them later in today's episode. Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products. This podcast is forformational purposes only, and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. All right, everyone. Welcome back to Empire.

Good week. Good week to have a good week. People were making fun of me for saying that on TVP this week, but I think it's true. It's good week to have a good week. So, Rob Sto is up, guys. >> What's up? >> How's it going? No, nobody's having as good a week as you, so >> I mean, I think you are. I heard you're the the paddle champion, Rob. >> Yeah, there's uh Well, I have to give Ro Patel a little bit of uh credit in that as well. And so, uh, you know, we we it it takes two to win, uh, to win a paddle tournament. There's also a little bit of asteris there. So, I'm gonna I'm gonna give a, uh, we because I did have a I got us to the finals, >> but then had a little bit of a a little

bit of a shoulder thing. And so, I actually sat out the finals and I had a uh >> literally so we have this paddle tournament and it's at reserve here in in New York. It's Dragonfly and Rain sponsored. It's like all crypto people. this like Argentinian kid walks in off the street and is like hey listen like I really like I like paddle just starts watching the games watching the matches and then when I was like hey listen I need I need to sit out the finals he first one to raise his hand like I want to play and khakis like shoes aren't tied and we're like okay like I guess like whatever like everyone's kind of like you know um walking around having a beer or whatever comes in smokes it like way better than me

>> the Argentinians they're nasty at battle they're nasty yeah >> yeah he was he was just nasty. Uh and so there a little bit of an asterisk because I didn't play the finals, but I got, you know, I got us got us there. So >> yeah. Yeah. Santi, how's your paddle game? >> It's all right. I'm actually wanted to get back in the tennis game. Uh so so uh there's a good courts out here. You guys have seen them. So I I want to get back I I want to do a different kind of sport. I want to learn it. So I'm going to start >> You guys have the clay courts out by you right? >> Clay courts. Yeah. Where they're pretty fun. The issue though is like there's a lot of pros in that play and then the first time I went there, they're like,

"Oh, buddy of mine invited me." And I was like, "Oh, let's play." And they give us like the center court and there's other courts next to it. I think Jookovic was playing that in the court next to me. I'm like, "Yeah, definitely no. I'm going home. >> I don't want to." And everyone sees it, right? Cuz they're having lunch. Everyone's seeing your play and you're like, "Yeah, I'm not doing this." >> No, no, no. You can't do that. >> No. At the club. At the club. All right. Uh, it's a big week. Do you guys want to So, we had we had some earnings this week. uh big a lot of the a lot of the big AI companies um hyperscalers um you know there's probably the most import important fund raise you know in the industry did happen this week so that was a big one um

>> we should talk about that >> we should definitely talk about that we should talk about um hype for you know I don't know if you guys looked at the the hood earnings but you know we had a guy Shondaanda Deans on our team I actually still don't even know his full name he's been at Blockworks for two years I just know his Twitter name but Shondaanda Devons and he compared hype versus hood I thought that was interesting Defi United, I'd love to get your guys' take on like so, you know, is is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it a bailout? Does that matter? Did it need to happen? So, DeFi United, uh, I'd love to get your guys' take on Pump Fund is doing a lot of uh buy and burns. So, would love to get your guys' take on

like is the is the buy and the burn model a good model? Um, and then actually Stripe had Stripe sessions. So, maybe there's some, you know, Rob we can tee up for, you know, Stripe, Western Union had earnings, so they talked about, you know, their stable coin. We can. Yeah, I know that's your I know. I know you thrive there. So, >> this is gonna be a spicy episode, ladies and gent. >> It's gonna be spicy. All right, where do you guys want to start? I'd love to get your guys' take on state of the markets. So, Rob, Santi, you know, bunch of earnings. We had Meta, we had Amazon, Alphabet absolutely ripped through.

>> Um, you know, M Microsoft, um, Robin Hood. So, you know, a lot I think a lot of a lot of misses, right? Except, you know, obviously Google absolutely smoked it. Would love to get your guys' take. I don't know if you you have any takeaways from these. >> Robin, we're going from left to right. Rob, you are going >> you just you love the public equity. So like I I always wonder >> I'm prompting Claude right now to sound smart on on micro. Listen, I I think broadly, so like maybe there's like like the hood and we've got I think we've got Coinbase on the 7th. We've got um Circle next week as well. Maybe maybe it's the circle's on the Yeah, Circle's next

week. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think the there's a there's a broad expectation here that like I mean crypto specific stuff is just getting crushed, right? >> I mean there there I think Hood on their crypto trading was down 40%. >> Yeah. Uh, but they made up all of that with their prediction market trading, which is not surprising considering like how excited people have been at prediction market specifically. I expect Coinbase earnings to be, you know, and I think everyone expects them to be something similar in terms of retail trading volumes. We'll we'll see what happens on their institutional derivative side. There's a bit of um it's a little bit hard to compare uh year-over-year on their quarterly financials because they changed the way that they're reporting at the moment to

consolidate a bunch of their like offshore and um uh and institutional products and trading with with some of their onshore stuff. And so we'll have to see what it looks like, but I expect like the retail side which where they make most of their money is going to be you know quite bad as well. I mean even you know to your point Yano that there's you know been a lot of talk about Hyperlid which is was obviously continued to do well. I mean it's still down 30% uh you know quarter over quarter in terms of trading volume on the per side which and per continues to take some market share relative to to spot and so I think there's you know no denying that trading crypto the tokens is in decline at the moment. The volatility is in decline. There's been a lot more excitement um on the equity

markets. Frankly, a lot of equities are trading like memecoins today. Like, it's actually been insane the way we've seen the volatility get back into the equity market. Uh, and that was true of the commodity markets obviously earlier in the year. And so, you know, we well, I don't think any of us are going to be surprised. And so, again, it continues to be more around like what is the long-term opportunity? What is happening in the space? How excited are we about that? There's, you know, the other side of the coin which we talked about which is Google and and and Meta and like what's happening, you know, more broadly in terms of the equity markets which continue to hit all-time highs despite, I think, tremendous tail or headwinds across most of the macroeconomic, you know, kind of market right now. But capex man I mean I mean there was a I

continued to hear somebody uh talking about um you know that the amount of capex that we're going is going to be required for data centers that is going to be required for AI it people just still do not understand how >> I mean you can feel it you could I don't know if you guys so internally at block works we so we do this uh survey every 90 days about like AI and stuff like that so last quarter it was 81% of the company was on cloud 19% was on chat the company is mostly switched since 55 the company is mostly back on codecs and uh you know one of the probably one of the main reasons is claude feels like it's getting worse and they just don't you know Daario had this uh you know a measured approach to or I think he called it a disciplined

approach to scaling capex and it see and you know he you know he's kind of giving Sam you know a bunch of crap for like yoloing all their capex it seems like Sam's approach might have been the right approach right so you know I don't know if people have you know I was like a claude maxi And now I'm yeah back to using codecs and and chat you know now that 55 is out. >> Um so I guess going back to your question around u macro just to overlay some of the stuff that Rob was talking about. Um like uh Visa for instance is interesting. They posted a really strong quarter. They're up 17%.

um uh management called it the highest revenue growth since 2022 and they mostly attributed that to Visa as a service and they they called out Agentic and Stablecoin capabilities. So obviously that's something I think coming into the year with predictions um you know Visa is a company that we should be tracking and like what's actually really happening with stable coins and uh Western Union reported earnings last Friday uh stock was down quite a bit on the day and then it rebounded a bit. They your guys has posted a an article about it and and it got picked up. There seems to it seems like they're launching their stable coin next month with a couple of partners and then they are working towards a digital asset network.

So obviously that I think will be something to monitor as well. Um it wasn't pretty though. Western Union's operating margin just got crushed from 18% to 13%. Like if you look at agent receivables like number it was like not pretty at all. You basically have had declining revenue and growing agent receivables which means like like to give you an example Western Union used to be exclusive with a lot of agents like you know in the on the on the cash out side. Now they're not and so it's more competitive and you're seeing that in margins. It will be interesting to see how and to what extent a public company can pull off a transformation of this scale. In many ways, Visa is probably like Kai and the and the and

the team there is been very early on this train. Um, but yeah, that was another thing to note. We've talked about Western Union and the pod. I've talked to a couple people in the in the industry about this in particular and uh I've learned a lot about like how money moves like from Africa to China and why Tron, why USDT. Uh if you hear the Western Union management team, they talk a lot about like the they haven't figured out how to incentivize people to hold their own stable coin, which I think is something that we maybe I would love to guys Rob or Yan your take because a lot of times it's like we talk about Circle and and and Tether and other stable coin issuers and we've commented on the pod that everyone will

want their own stable coin but it's not as easy I think is my what I've appreciated. It's like the reality is USDT is the preferred currency. I've heard some people go as far as saying like why does Western Union need to launch around stable coin when they are they better served working and just working with like USDT or USDC. I think there's like obvious reasons for that, but um the other example here is PayPal, right? PYUSD has was heavily incentivized out of the gate and then it's kind of been, you know, not lived up to expectations. So, um before I go any further, Rob, I don't I don't know if you have views on that uh or you Yanu, but it's something that I want to just talk about for a minute

around like are we going to see more businesses launch on stable coin or or are they going to just work with Circle or or Tether or Pax? I mean, just to be Yeah. I mean, just to be clear about about PYUSD, I mean, it's up like three and a half billion. Like, it's still continuing to grow. I think they're they're down on the the month uh a decent amount, but like it's while it's been heavily incentivized, like they continue to push it and it continues to grow year on year, right? You know, I I think at the same time to your point around, you know, call it like USDPDT, everybody wants it. Just be very clear like USDT is losing market share at the moment. Now the number one beneficiary of that is USDC and we are we're in this period of time right now where there's

this interesting thing that's happening which is it is now and we've been talking about this a bunch but every single fintech that I talked to today is doing things on stable coins now if they're going global and I think we've long speculated that this would be the case and it's been something that I you know assumed was happening as I had conversations but my deal flow as a venture capitalist now is like I'm talking to companies that were like, you know, the best fintech companies a few years ago and that everybody knows that had nothing to do with crypto, have not been public about crypto, have not been doing anything with crypto. And then you talk to them, they're like, "Oh, yeah, a year ago or after Genius or right before Genius, we started moving all of our

infrastructure to stable coins and now all of our business is stable coins." People that you would never hear of that would never talk about it, right? That is universally true now. like you know I I I do not think that there is a global fintech today that is not heavily heavily using stable coins whether they talk about it publicly or not. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And so >> no just to add one point to that which is that I will say one of the things that's happening here is is you know so there's Western Union with um uh what USDTP >> USDPT payment.

>> Yeah. And so you know they've they've been very public like this is not an externally facing stable coin. This isn't an internal settlement mechanism. CLAUSD, same exact thing, right? There continues to be a lot of people focused on these like internal settlement mechanisms. Um, not for like a PYUSD where it's like, hey, we're going to go and try to get this integrated into a bunch of other people. And I still continue to hear that that's happening at a lot of places. But for the people there is this kind of push pull right now where people are saying okay well let's do that or let's you know a lot of people are asking for not USDT at the at the at these like fintech levels now they're asking for something else that they feel more comfortable with. So it'll be interesting to see what happens

over time with that because that's been surprising to me when Tether's had this just like strangle hold on emerging market finance. >> Yeah. One of the other things to comment is obviously on the capex front like I mean earnings this quarter have not rolled over. I mean we still have like double digit earnings growth like on the the S&P's posting 13% earnings growth. I mean that's massive. Um one last tidbit >> that's still really concentrated, right? Like it's very >> it's very concentrated. That's right. Um the other which which leads me to the last point I wanted to make which is um I mean Paul Tudtor Jones came out with a really good podcast, Invest with the best. we've all seen it. He said something that I want to I want to put front and center which he said that um

the stock uh he he he he said that this might be the it reminded him a lot of the 2000. He's like um I think it's something along like this is the easiest bare market since 2000.com bubble and he he he has the nuance here is that he felt that the stock markets was really um like most of Americans really levered on the stock market and his metric to see that is there has historically been a lot of buybacks of stock and now as we're going to have more IPOs he's like I don't think we're going to be able to absorb all of that and that might be the unwinding event in 12 to 18 months.

I don't know if I got it right, but Yano, I I hear you nodding. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm nodding to all this. So, we can we can touch on the Paul Tudtor Jones episode in a second. There's So, there's two two things I want to comment on. One is I think with the stable coin adoption, you're going to see the there's going to be a dichotomy of companies here where you're going to have CEO companies and founder companies. It's like if you go talk to, you know, I have a lot of respect for, you know, did the fireside chat with the Western Union CEO, got uh dinner with, you know, one of the high up people at PayPal the other night. Like I think it's uh I wouldn't understate how tough it is to move the bureaucracy in these companies whereas a founder company like

um like we just published this data on [ __ ] today WH like founder business boom they can pivot in three days. CLA boom they can pivot in two weeks. It's um so I actually think you'll see two different types of companies here with the stablecoin adoption. I would also say in the earnings because I know you know this crypto podcast like you know I don't know if we need to pontificate too much on the hyperscalers but I actually I wrote down some of the highlights of earnings calls as it relates to crypto and this was my big takeaway was how much crypto was mentioned in the earnings calls. So Visa Visa said Visa is positioned as the hyperscaling bridge layer between stable coins and real world solutions. SoFi SoFi said the crypto super cycle, you remember, you

know, Suz, yeah, we used to talk about the super cycle all the time. You got the SoFi CEO saying the crypto super cycle will transform money movement, positioning SoFi's national bank charter and stable coin as foundational infrastructure for frictionless global payments. The Mastercard CEO, Michael Mayback, said, "Mastercard's uh diversified, future ready, and delivering. building on our strong foundation. We're advancing agentic commerce with Mastercard agent pay and expanding our stablecoin solutions through our acquisition of BVNK. And then you had Vlad from Robin Hood who no surprise he, you know, big fan of crypto. He said the price moves up and down, but crypto as technology infrastructure is going to be big. So, I don't know. I just, you know, I'm not

here to say earning, you know, this company should should beat earnings or miss earnings, but like I I am pretty blown. It's the most uh you know it's the most I've ever seen CEOs talk about crypto in in an earning season ever in the in the history like and we're only a couple days into this, right? So I would expect that to be the big trend of this earning season and I would I would just encourage folks to zoom out of like did they beat did they miss? Like it it it's really amazing what's happening on these earnings calls, right? You know V Visa card payment volume with Rain and Bridge is up 200% year-over-year. They have 160 stablecoin link card programs. They've added they just added support for five new blockchains. We we haven't even talked about this. One of the biggest I feel like least talked about news of the

week was Facebook rolled out stable coins, right? Um >> payouts. >> Yeah. Stable coin payouts in I think it was like Colombia and Colombia and one other place. Um and they did it on Polygon and Salana. So that's there's a lot of really good stuff happening right now. >> Yeah. I I mean I think to your first point around like how hard it is to move an organization. I I do think you have to give a little bit of credit to Western Union for you know trying they're launching the the Santi's over here gloating because he he loves Western Union. So uh >> I like that I'm I'm getting a we also in it right you're getting a bottle of wine or we're getting a fancy dinner November.

>> You know this is the good thing about being the host. I get I get paid either way. So I'm I'm join Whoever wins I'm joining. You're the escro agent here. >> No, but listen, they've got the stable coin launching next month. They've got the Rain card that they're launching uh I think around the same time. They've got this, you know, digital asset uh network that's kind of connecting. They're trying to go outside of the, you know, correspondent banking network and they're connecting everybody. Um you know, and to that point like you know, Meta, they specifically said it's USDC payouts um that they're doing, I think, with uh with Stripe on on Salana and Polygon. The I mean for Visa I mean the fastest growing part of that business for a while has been their services business uh which is like a lot of their

software that sits on top. Um the fastest growing transaction part of that business or transaction revenue has been their Visa Direct business. The visa direct is their non-bank network uh settlement which is they've started to put entirely they've tried to push more and more towards towards stable coin rails right and so the fastest growing parts of Visa right now and I know it's small is the the stable coin settlement on their cards and the uh the their non-bank settlement network on the Visa direct side Mastercard has Mastercard send doing the same thing they're also trying to catch up on the stable coin settlement uh for the the cards directly um I mean we didn't talk about Stripe sessions which is going on right now but happened yesterday. Sharp sessions, they're literally only talking about two things right now, which is aentic

commerce like and command line commerce and and stable coins. Literally the only thing they're talking about right now. Visa is talking about the same stuff. Um, you know, almost entirely like the the market kind of cares about two things right now when it comes to these businesses and it's stable coins and it's how are agents going to transact? How what type of comments is going to happen within in the age of AI. This episode is brought to you by Fidelity Crypto, a platform built in-house with the same discipline. Fidelity applies to everything so you can invest in crypto confidently. Trade crypto backed by industryleading security. Get started at fidelity.com/crypto.

Crypto is offered by Fidelity Digital Assets NA is not insured by FDIC or SIPC and includes risk of complete loss. Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC member NYC. >> Yeah. Can I say something controversial here, which is >> Sure. >> Absolutely not. >> Yeah. I guess I'll shut it down. Guess I'll shut it down. >> I think, you know, this is going to frustrate, I think, a lot of people listening to this. I think that people are really um in a t in an trying to grapple with in crypto the fact that Stripe's blockchain and I'm you know I

know this is going to frustrate people. Canton those two blockchains have been able to get more adoption in one year than most chains were able to get in in five. Yeah, I know you're looking at me because of Canton's incentives. But but how do you define adoption? Because there's not really any flow going through Tempo at the moment. Okay, it's been live for like >> Great headlines. Great headlines. Great headlines. >> All right. Well, they've got more. Okay. I mean, how much you know how much is flowing through, you know, insert >> most of the chains.

>> Here's here's a controversial take. Here's a controversial take. There are more stable coin payments today. >> Here's Yeah, here's a controversial. There are more stable coin payments today going through Polygon than any other blockchain. >> I stellar. >> I'm not surprised that Polygon has positioned themselves as the payment. Is Polygon the chain that gets the least amount of love amongst crypto natives? Certainly within the Ethereum community, it's like I the hate that Polygon has gotten from the Ethereum >> since the very beginning because it was like are they an L2? Are they not L2? >> Because no one made money on Polygon. The insiders didn't make money on Polygon. This is like the double standards within the Ethereum community.

I've always, you know, >> uh I'm not saying Tempo won't do great. I have no idea if it'll do do great or not. Uh I'm sure they will build great product on top of Tempo, which means they can route things to Tempo. I think most of the headlines they're talking about, they're building cool product. They got a lot of things coming out. Most of the people they're serving and the, you know, these kind of partnerships they're talking about are people who are blockchain agnostic, do not care about the blockchain. And so they will route to whatever, you know, service that they are working with decides to route to for the best transaction flow. And, uh, Stripe will probably do a good job and and Matt and the team there will probably do a good job in that. But they're also going to launch on Polygon and and Stellar and

you know Salana and you know Monad and whatever other chain if it makes sense. >> So I was um I'm gonna I'm going to shell Block Works data if I may because I was on a podcast earlier this week and uh the protocol revenue is really down and now hyper like the question is more around like stable coin transfers don't make as much money as like you know memecoin trading. Um, and so the question is like, okay, like there could be a lot of growth in stable coin trans transactions, but that doesn't mean that the L1's going to acrew a lot of value.

Um, like like we've talked here before, like Tempo probably does a lot of things for Stripe as a business, but the the blockchain itself, like we talked about, okay, is it worth five billion? Like a lot of the Stripe investors put money in it. I think the margins of Stripe just get better because they get more customers and it's just they're bundling a product. People always make money with bundling, but if you're like a standalone payments chain without the muscle of like Stripe that is sell selling other services, I mean, it's just it's a struggle. I think it will be a struggle.

>> I think the counter is that Tron actually does make decent money. Tron Tron has decent fees, right? >> Yeah. And I I love that >> because they um well they've jacked up the what probably Ethereum should have done, right? Another chain should have done. Um what one thing can we just go back to one thing like okay so we have two of the smartest macro guys telling us that they're bearish. You have >> except he likes Bitcoin. So not that part. Well, he he mentioned Bitcoin as like that was a good setup in a trade and he he actually astutely kind of pointed out like hey the quantum thing is a threat like cyber security is a threat. He was bearish AI. But okay,

like Paul Tudtor Jones comes out and says like the stock market as a percent of GDP is like at an all-time high like 250% of GDP is like in stock riding the stock market. And then Den Miller is also also bearish and he's like he's seeing a lot of these narrative to your point like the stock market go look at fatonic stocks they look like whiffed back in the day you know and and and so I mean to me that feels like late cycle kind of behavior. Um, but I guess >> can I ask you a question? And I actually don't know the answer to this. This is an honest question, >> but h have Drunken Miller and uh and Paul Tudtor Jones, have they been

bearish for a while? Have they been bearish a lot recently when you know things have continued to do well? Like like do do you know what their what their view has been over the last couple of years? >> I think so. Anytime there's something on on drug, I like to just drop everything and and and listen to it. I mean, he was bullish in video like three years ago. Um, he was bull. So, I this is the I'm referencing this interview that he did with Morgan Stanley recently. And that's where he was his tone was bearish. He was long energy, but he was like he was bearish a lot of these narratives. And um Paul Tudtor Jones I don't I don't know how many public appearances he's had which is a good question Rob but um I mean they're both traders.

>> He he flipped bearish um I I was actually trying to answer this Rob yesterday. I think that's it was a great question. I uh I think he flipped bearish mid 2025 is what I can tell. So like let's call it summer of 25. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What what has the stock market done since then? Do we know? >> Yeah. It's like up uh 30% 20% or so. >> Yeah. >> He did say he actually he he said in mid 2025 he said I think he's like I'm flipping bearish but I think we will have he said this feels exactly like 1999 talking about last year. Um and he said hold on there's fire trucks. One sec.

>> I'll step in here. Um there's um >> let me finish that thought because I think he actually did call he called he said 2025 was likeuh 1999. he was flipping bearish, but he said it's pretty likely we get a blowoff a blowoff rally and that he's just comfortable missing it. So, that actually aligns with it's now a year later and he's calling it 2000. >> That's that's what I mean. I think like uh they're both saying the same thing which is you're as a trader, as an investor, I don't think you should be positioned to like try to squeeze out 100% of the gains in that cycle and you're should be comfortable more like just clocking, you know, 70 80% of the gains and then just protecting principle. Um or or you could just and he and he said it in his interviews like

just be like Warren and just like be long and compound and not do anything. >> I loved I loved the piece of that podcast where he was talking about Warren Buffett >> and he was like I had such cope about Warren for the longest time and then like he just keeps compounding. >> Uh that was great. So >> So then what do you do like I mean Santi you're in two two camps there. There's the Warren camp and there's the PTJ camp. Like do you try you do you try to time the market or or do you not? >> I went through a lot of cash in November and like does it hurt to see a rally? Uh yeah, I mean we're all psychological like you know you're sitting there and getting you know markets ripped in your face and uh but I I don't know I feel

comfortable like holding decent amount of cash to take advantage of I my view is that the world just becomes more volatile and there will be just dislocations in the market from time to time and I want to be able to have cash because I know myself psychologically I just feel better when I have a big bucket of cash and I can be very aggressive. Uh the strategies that I'm doing have like yield pickup. Like I'm still I'm still long. I'm still have equity exposure. I'm still long. I don't short by any stretch of the imagination, but I I like um like some like long, you know, but I I have like probably 30% cash.

>> Yeah. you. >> You know what's funny is I I always thought that crypto volatility would start to compress over the years and what's actually happened is crypto volatility has just spilled out into the rest of equities. These earnings calls like things pumped 20%. That that shouldn't that shouldn't technically happen. >> Uh I I I just think I mean we it's been happening as we've gotten as more and more of the market has been driven by kind of like uh algorithmic flows, right? instead of like, you know, call it >> and retail flows. Right.

>> And retail flows. Yeah. Right. So like like the marginal buyer today is like a retail trader and there is more more retail trading. Um and there's much more retail trading in derivatives than there has ever been specifically. Um and then you know you you add in that like a lot of the market is like algorithmic and like then you're having people like refine these things over time. I I I expect that like we'll continue to have um you know a decent amount of volatility across all assets uh just because like this especially in this like hyper financialization that's happening right now. Um I mean crypto has gotten lower volatility though but the volatility like the volatility equities markets have come up and the volatility in and crypto markets have

come down and maybe we're just the right equilibrium in the future as like somewhere between historical equity volatility and you know historical uh crypto volatility. >> Let's switch gears a little bit. Uh do I want to hear your guys' take on the DeFi what's it called? DeFi union defi DeFi United DeFi United. So, you know, we talked last week about this big this big hack, right? One of one DVN setup on Kelp's layer zero bridge. You had these forged crosschain forge crosschain message. Uh DPRK North Korea gets like, you know, a couple hundred million bucks. Um and there's all these spillover effects and we talked about it in more detail last week. Um so now what's happened is all these companies have basically put in money to uh stop the bleeding and to there was like a you

know there's a big hole that we talked about last week. I forget how big the hole is. Like 90 90,000 uh I don't know if one of you guys knows it, but there's like a 90,000 90 million hole. 90,000. I forget the exact number. >> It's $300 million. Yeah. >> Yeah. 300 29 292 million was >> Yeah. Excuse me. >> I think they raised over 300 million. >> Yeah, of course. 292 million. So there's a big hole. And so a bunch of bunch of folks stepped in, right? Joe Luben and Consensus put in like 30k ETH. Uh Mantle put in 30k ETH, I think, on a loan. Layer Zero, I think, put in 10K. Stani Stani kind of kicked it off, right? And put in 5K of his own five 5,000 ETH, which is like, you know, 10 million bucks. Kelp only put in 2K. Salana

Salana put in some. I think Circle was buying a um and there's a big pending vote for Arbitum on Arbitum right now uh that I'll abstain from talking about because Blockworks is the second biggest delegate in in Arbitum. Um but anyways, I'm curious what you guys think of this DeFi United. Some people were kind of upset, right? Because it's it's a it's a quote unquote bailout. So, yeah. Curious what you guys think of it. Um, well, there's a couple of observations. One, I think the Salana Foundation also stepped in and brought a to Salana. That was like always a big head scratcher.

Like, as much as I'm an investor in Camino and other and and margin, like a coming to Salana, like I think, you know, you take advantage of an opportunity. And it it was good to see other communities step up and and contribute. The more cynical there was like a a tweet out there that was like North Koreans waiting for the DeFi United to refill so that they can go at it again. Um I I I'm not in that camp. I I do think that like I I I you know Luigi joined the team from Avalanche and I I hope I mean this is a learning opportunity. Um and and I think there's like clear um areas of improvement for the protocol, but like it gone to your

head, would you rather not resolve it or resolve it in this way? Like I think I think resolving it like I don't know if bailout is the right term, but um but I'm more in that account. Like I you just there's a lot of good work done there and it's a backbone of DeFi. So as an industry, you shouldn't let it die or or you know severely impaired. >> Yeah. I mean, I think this like the push back against the the this happening is like completely brain dead. Like it's like a very like a a really inability to understand like second and third order effects frankly. Um and clearly this was needed. This was obviously very important for the future of DeFi. is obviously very important for the future of of a specifically which is you know

it's still I think the largest you know kind of money market in crypto although it's you know that morpho are are um getting closer and closer uh it's you know the argument around like oh you should just like let things I mean there's a lot of people have been talking about like right uh if you remember the global financial crisis I know this is similar and there was a decent amount of people around you know the global financial crisis oh we should just let the banks go under and every single one of those people would have been, you know, in a food uh line trying to like get like, you know, some handouts if, you know, we had actually done that, right? Like we would have been in a global depression. it. And so, you know, this is obviously not at the same scale, but we this was very

important for ensuring that there we continue to be able to take advantage of the momentum that we're talking about here in terms of adoption of tokenization and of stable coins and of, you know, these, you know, large corporates coming on chain. Now, we have to learn from it. We have to change the way we operate. we have to make sure that we have better security measures. Uh but you know without that this was going to be just a massive massive overhang for the industry for a long period of time. And you know, it's nice to see so many people kick, you know, uh, pitching in who understood that who technically have no exposure whatsoever.

Like, you know, Salana had no exposure whatsoever. You know, John had no exposure whatsoever. So, it's nice to see that um, you know, that everyone come together and >> Circle come back around or no, didn't they donate a bit? >> What I I think what I saw was they were buying a tokens, but they didn't contribute to the fund. But, uh, so I'm not quite sure. I'd have to go back and look. I don't know if Ayano you you know uh exactly what's what's going on there but listen I think this is this is this was important and I expect that >> Circle Ventures by the way I think Circle Ventures is just buying a tokens.

>> Okay. All right. And and frankly like going forward you know we've we're now in a situation where it's not as if Lazarus was going to stop trying to hack things right like there this is their profession. they s wake up every day and they say how can I hack you know different types of financial institutions how can I hack you know be onchain protocols etc and so that was going to continue to happen whether we did this or not and so now we just need to operate better and >> you know how much uh >> you know how much uh Lazarus has hacked since like 2017 billion you know how much they've hacked uh probably more revenue than the crypto

industry has produced um you know how much um this year year to date this does not include some of the recovered funds but year to date we've had 30 plus incidents including today wasabi protocol for 5 million there's been like 770 million of hacks and roughly for you like uh three quarters so 75 76% of all hacks are attributable to this entity Lazarus right tied to North Korea So, it's um I don't know a lot of people are speculating, but it does feel like there's a like we are May April 30th and we're already at this pace we're going

to have the record year in terms of uh DeFi hacks and and total value lost because historically it's been between 600 and 900 million up to a billion. If it continues at this pace, it's alarming. Um, obviously things to monitor is as we bring on guests and conversations is like, does this actually impact some of the deployments that we've talked about? Does this impact institutions coming? Doesn't seem like that's the case. But what I will tell you is one of the largest funds that has historically been a very very active, if not the most active onchain, has not been on chain for two years in a row. It's just totally out and they have zero interest to do yield strategies on chain for this

reason. They just don't they I I spoke with them this week and they're like there's no interest. Um they're doing other CFI kind of uh carry trades and like delta neutral strategies but nothing on chain and that is it's pretty damning to be honest. H >> probably one of the largest like there's zero in like I haven't touched on chain for the last two years. I was like okay >> well and is it because of the security or because the yields are too low or what what's the reason?

>> Uh security. >> Security. >> Yeah because the yields you can you can always like you know if if you're sophisticated and active you can you can still clip decent yield on chain. uh you have to be really on it and there's still people that do it but it hasn't been as lucrative given like the riskreward is just not there at least not >> even as we're recording this hundreds of I'm looking on I just saw this on this alert come through hundreds of wallets just got drained by the same address on ETH mainet seems like a new live exploit worth flagging so >> is that like a one password like a password man not a password man >> this is this is like three minutes ago I'm just seeing this so >> let's say more about it what is it >> I'm I'm I'm lit on Ether scan I'm

looking at the funds go out. Um, funds just left funds left my wallet to this address. Not sure what the vulnerability services. Others are g getting zeroed out as well. Mainet ETH only. >> Yeah. So, this is I I mean, look, I I don't know if it's impacting things right now, but I I would say this is a big problem. This would be I I think this is like en enemy number one is North Korea and Lazarus right now. And I I actually think it's a huge problem. >> Yeah. Yeah, I and I think you'll but look like you know free markets end up solving the problems is my is my belief and like you know people like there'll be great entrepreneurs and founders who step in and try to solve this problem and there'll be great capital allocators

like Rob I don't know if you guys are getting pitches yet like I haven't seen many companies doing this but like I'm guessing you will start to see companies doing this like trying to solve some of this stuff I think there's one called uh Hyper Native which is like real time security and threat detection and >> Hyper is a decent company there is a series B a couple years ago. They're >> Yeah. Yeah. Hyperative is a good Yeah. Yeah. So, like there's companies like Hyper Native and then I'm but I'm guessing there'll be many more hyper-esque companies and uh >> totally >> I I don't know. I'm I don't think >> fundraising in the security market right now is actually picking up a lot as expected, right? So, like all of the like security companies are out in market, right? Um >> uh and so like it's very clear that this

is a problem that that needs to get solved and people are trying to solve it. You know, I was talking to one of my portfolio companies. We had a a board meeting uh earlier this week and they, you know, this is not a portfolio company that has ever had a security issue, that has ever had a hack. They've been they're probably one of my most professional portfolio companies in terms of thinking about um you know, these like Offsack and and things like that. And they for a period of time after what happened with layer zero just kind of locked down their protocol and just did a full like two-day review of every single thing they do. And they've just decided that they are going to be they're going to

make a bunch of changes despite the fact that they've you know never done anything as you never done anything nearly as reckless as what we've seen for some of these guys happen today. But there's an we're going to even go the third or fourth or fifth extra step because we know that this is is happening. We know that people are the the attack vectors are widening and we know that it's getting more sophisticated. And so we're just going to, you know, do a full scale review and we're going to uh we're going to change the way we operate. And one of the things they were doing was they were getting a bunch of kind of real-time alerts through through hyperative. And then I saw I saw um one of the founders at our our our pedal event yesterday uh and they were telling me I think we have

too many alerts now because I literally get an alert like every minute that like something could be happening. Uh and now and I can't sleep anymore. >> I was like I haven't slept in three weeks like >> Yeah. Uh but so um but but I think be very clearly this is something that everyone needs to be taking extremely seriously. No matter how seriously you think you are already taking it, right? because it is only going to get tougher and tougher and tougher. >> Take a disciplined approach to crypto investing with Fidelity Crypto, a platform built inhouse using over a decade of crypto experience. At Fidelity, you can trade crypto and stocks together, backed by industry-leading security. When you can see your accounts in one place, it's easier to make smarter decisions. Get

started at fidelity.com/crypto. Crypto is offered by Fidelity Digital Assets. NA is not insured by FDIC or SIPC and includes risk of complete loss securities offered by Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC member NYC SIPC. Let's uh let's shift gears a little bit. So Pump Pump Fund just did uh just started doing these. So Pump Fund has been buying back their token and burning it and as part of these like Yeah. token. Okay. So Pump tweeted out the future of Pump. We have burned all of our bought back pump tokens, which is around $370 million worth of purchases, which is roughly 36% of the circulating

supply in order to gain trust with our community. On top of that, we've initiated a programmatic buyback and burn scheme at 50% of the of revenue for the next year to instill trust, predictability, and sustainability for the underlying ecosystem, and to remove as much of the supply from circulation as possible. Pump is changing for the better of token holders, the team, and the ecosystem. Uh, and Alain followed up that that post and said, uh, today's a turning point for Pump. I want to give more context on the bigger picture. Over the past 9 months, 100% of revenue went into buybacks. Basically, no other platform has done this at that scale.

However, we received ongoing feedback on the feeling of a lack of trust. I want I have many thoughts on why that is. Um, and he said, you know, today we're changing that. Um, so, uh, and he said, "Why not 100? Why not use 100% of revenue to buy back?" Said, "The short answer is the business simply needs the other 50% to grow." I have thoughts on that, too. Um, but yeah, I would love to get your guys's take on this. >> I'm actually interested in your thoughts on that because >> you give us your thoughts. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because because I I um, you know, my perspective is that actually the most interesting thing out of this uh, announcement was the fact that they said, "Hey, listen, 50% is going to go into growth capital." And I think they specifically talked about the, you know,

quote unquote like big bets, uh, and things like like M&A. And I think, you know, there's been a lot of discussion online, which is is totally correct, which is that like the idea of using 100% of your revenue to like buy back a token just tells people that the the product is the token, right? Instead of like growing the business and building new product and trying to find things that people want to use. And so I I I thought that was uh actually a very good thing that they did that. But I'm interested in your perspective on like how you think about as a founder whether or not in I know you don't have a token but like how people should be managing the token versus their business.

>> Yeah. I mean f first off like I think that uh there was a great piece that um there was a great piece on investor relations that a fund I'm trying to remember the fund's name. It was uh Runa Digital Assets wrote and they talked about um the hidden driver of token performance is investor relations and like I'm you as biased as you as it gets here because like we have an investor relations product and I think it's doing you know it's the fastest growing thing at Blockworks right now is this IR product but um I think that companies need to start treating okay here's here's here's the problem that's happened in crypto to date in my take for investor relations is you've treated the users and the shareholders as the same group of people and because there's this idealistic dream, right? Like, you know, imagine if Uber started and the

first Uber users were the ones who own the stock. Like, it it's kind of this utopian dream, but actually the user your customers end up being very, very different people than your shareholders. Like imagine if you owned, you know, you've got Apple has their customers of the iPhone and then they have got their shareholders and those are two really different people and you have to communicate to them very differently. And so, you know, I think there's some groups who do this really well. Like Etheri does a really great job of this. Maple, I think, does a good job. Um, I think Athena is starting to do a good job. I think Layer Zero is starting to do like there's a few people who are starting to do a good job at this, but for the most part, people don't do a good job. I think Pump, this is them.

This I think this is seven months of investors telling Alain and the team like, "Guys, you you need to communicate your story. You have to talk about investor relations." And while I like this, like you can't just do it one and done. Like imagine if you know Tim Cook just like never showed up to quarterly earnings calls and then like once was like guys guys calm down. Like Apple's a good stock. We're going to be fine. You you can't do that. You have to do and I and my concern here is like this is just like Alain trying to sat he you know because they they basically say oftentimes in this tweet and in in both his tweet and Pump's tweet like we're doing this to uh you know to gain trust with the community. It's like don't do this. It feels very like one time. So, I

don't like that. And then in general, I don't really like buybacks that much. Like I don't think that like buybacks to me tell me that a founder doesn't know what to do with your cash. Like it tells me you don't have better ideas. And you know, obviously crypto's weird. Like there are some companies that just end up with this huge amount of capital, right? Like they're like they should be a series A company, but they end up with like a billion dollars. So like that it's a bit of a weird market in that way. like a lot of the L1's and L2s ended up with that. But yeah, I just don't think uh I think it's oftentimes better used for like R&D or like product development though. Now there's a counter which is if you really genuinely believe that the token or the stock is

undervalued, then you should probably buy it. But yeah, I I I I just think it's a lot of money to use to to buy back a token to satisfy a very small amount of investors on Twitter who are kind of complaining. >> They burned a third of the over a third of the token and the the the tokens down. Makes you wonder like should they have um >> like is it even working? Like does that >> I mean look it makes you wonder like do you need a token for this business?

Would a would they be better buying back these tokens or having Alain do what like most founders do which is like tweet about the product development and how many users they're getting and like how they're winning the market like Pump Pump is in an amazing place actually like they have >> it's the most profitable protocol in in in such a sick business and amazing like huge market share and like all these users like they're one of the few companies in crypto with like real revenue, real profits, real users, massive market share, but like but they're just talking about the buybacks.

Like I just don't I just don't get that. That's not what I would be doing is I guess. >> No, I just just honest question like um should pump have launched a token because sometimes I mean it goes back to court of it like what is the role of the token here? like like I guess I guess like run it like an exchange where like you incentivize people to to get on the platform and um you know uh get some discounts on on fees but like you're running a phenomenal business before that like like does a token hurt you or help you like what is what is the calculus like is it going to increase like user interest or volume on the platform? I actually I actually don't hate having a token but it but it's you

know you hear all these public company CEOs and oftentimes the founders when they go public they tell their team we will not focus on the to on the on the equity price right like yeah I heard Brian you know Armstrong when they went public like told the whole Coinbase team that you know Bezos famously has like really bang that drum at at Amazon like you know I've heard Toby at Shopify like bang this drum and obviously it impacts mood and morale but like you, I think, as a founder need to show your team that it's about growing revenue and users and the profit and the business and being innovative. And instead, what I think a lot of crypto founders do is they tell their team the whole focus is on the token. And that's what I I just don't I just don't like it. I don't think it's

the right strategy. >> How how much did they raise in the um in the in the was it like in November of last year? They ended up raising >> I think 500 million, right? Or 600 million. Yeah. And so they now burned back >> here. Here's the ICO stats. >> So they've burned more of that at this point. There's more value destruction. Um, look, and and and it's like you can't look at it in a vacuum because obviously the market's down, but you know, they're still they're still cranking some decent volume and like how much are they making on a on a weekly basis?

>> Like look at that. That's they had eight they had 8 billion across Pump Fund and Pump Swap. They had 8 billion in volume in in just March, right? They had their their Q1 alone was 27 billion in volume. Like this is a this is a sick business and they should talk about how amazing of a business is. That's what that's what I would be doing if I were that's that's why I don't like I don't have a you know I'm not >> Yeah, >> I don't think Yeah. I mean, it's either you don't have an you don't have enough growth opportunities to invest behind, but uh or you're trying to instill confidence in a in a brute force mechanism that I think to your point is probably better to just be more communicative on on the daily and just go out there and really talk about pump

and that probably goes uh the market's speaking right that the the the token's down uh after this burn like it's it's very clear to me that to your point it's one time. And I mean, look, I'm I'm biased. I mean, I'm an investor. I was an early investor there. I I still hold my tokens. Like, um, but I I it's a cash machine. I don't still don't understand why I need a token. There's um I had an interesting conversation internally yesterday because there's a uh a you know kind of a we talked about this like I I mean maybe this was two months ago when a cross announced their take private

>> uh and you know I had a couple conversations right after that with a bunch of protocols that were considering something similar and then I talked to another company yesterday where they're just too big to do a take private uh because it's you know public public market cap is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. But similar thing where their revenue is just kind of like up and to the right. Their adoption is up and to the right. their, you know, usage is up and to the right and the token has been down and to the right and like has literally not stopped uh going down for, you know, call it, you know, three I think the whole year uh and I think has haved since the beginning of the year and there I don't believe that

this is necessarily like a long-term trend. I do believe that there are reasons to have tokens. I think some of these tokens will do very well. How you design the tokens uh continues to matter quite a bit. But we certainly are in this point of time where people have forgotten the thing that matters most in markets which is liquidity. And there is just no liquidity for these tokens at this period of time because of you know access reasons, interest reasons and you know the weight of everything else that has had happened in the space and as markets consolidate as you know I think right now like crypto tokens and equities are seen as like you know distinctly different asset classes where

I don't believe that'll be true over time as people kind of you know reinvent themselves and reinvent their tokens. But in this like short-term period of time, like that's going to continue to be true until liquidity comes back into the space. When we started this, you know, podcast by talking about the fact that like, you know, Robin Hood trading is down, crypto trading is down 40%. Coinbase will be the same thing. That is going to have knockon effects. It doesn't matter if you're the best business in crypto, it is going to have knock-on effects. And so there is this, you know, in the same way that the Hong Kong stock exchange, the same exact company trades at a discount to the na uh some the company on the NASDAQ, like that is essentially what is happening here. And so I don't I don't expect that

this is a thing that exists forever, but it is something that you have to think about right now. And I think a lot of these protocols are thinking about. >> Yeah, agree with all that. I I agree. Um, anything else guys? >> No, but to your point earlier, just to say I think Santi asked the question, Pump is still, if you take like their first quarter, is still probably going to do over $300 million worth of revenue this year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Great business. >> That's what I'm saying. Go talk about the business. Like, you know, you get one day a year to go talk about your valuation, which is when you announce your fund raise. That's why >> so so just to put just a >> talking about that >> just to put a finer point on that. So pump now with the burn I'm looking at they are trading at if they're going to clock 300 million in revenue Rob to your point this year give or take at the current pace >> that's what they're running rating towards yeah >> it's you know half of the market cap it's like the cheapest protocol in crypto out there and and you can rest your head on like memecoin trading e even in today's

depressed environment is still going. Um, so yeah, like NFA, but from a pure cash flowing durability perspective, this is as good as it gets. >> Yeah. Content of the week. >> Well, I already said, so I'm going to cheat here, folks. You should go listen to the Paul Tudtor Jones Invest Like the Best episode. I think it was just any, you know, very good. I mean, the man wakes up at 3 in the morning to go see the, you know, Asia o market open. Works out two hours a day. Has been doing the same routine for the last 20 years. The man loves the game. Like he's just out there like it's incredible stamina,

incredible like just his routine and discipline like and something he said which is like um you know he thinks that it's much harder today than it has ever been. And that's something that Drunk Miller also says like I'm like you would think that like a veteran like me like trading gets easier but it's it's harder and harder and it's like there's just this wealth of information and it's really hard to stay on top of it whereas 20 years ago you could have just focused in. Um so yeah that that's my content of the week is really really good uh podcast.

>> My content of the week was you on TVPN yesterday. We didn't even >> And then we didn't even talk about the Blockworks fund raise like you know I can't >> do we talked about the Blockworks rebrand last week. I don't want to turn this into the Blockworks shell shill thing but yeah we raised >> you should talk about it. You should talk about it. >> Yeah we ra we raised uh we raised around we raised around we just announced it yesterday. Raised at $192 uh million valuation. Uh Paraffy and Reciprocal Co-led um good folks participated Coinbase Ventures Moonay bunch of other great investors. Um, uh, Rob, Rob did not, so I will keep, you know, keep drilling him for that. Just gota beat him on the paddle courts. And, uh, what else? I don't know. 20 of our customers invested, you know, founders and

operators from like 20 of our customers. That was cool. That was a good win. And, uh, yeah. So, >> can I just say something? Beat me on the paddle court. Did I dominate you last time we played? >> You get one. I let you get one. I let you get one. It's like you get one day a year where you can talk about your valuation and talk about you know how great the company token is and you know the equity value and then you got to go back to building. It's like I let you get your one day and then yeah >> uh well congratulations great uh great team great great business. So uh you know I thought it was great to see that come out and you guys got great investors so awesome.

>> Yeah appreciate it. >> Um >> appreciate it. So other than TVPN with you content of the week, I have pre-bought my my tickets for this weekend for Devil Wear Prada. Devil's Wears Prada 2. So >> excited about the first one was a banger. Okay. >> I love you. I love you. That's great. >> People did not give it enough credit. So uh you know, not to dox you. We know where you'll be, but we're not going to say just for security reasons. But you'll be um uh I love the fact that you pre-bought >> that. Do you snipe like Devil War didn't get enough love? You're saying Devil War brought a Wow, look at it. Look at that.

>> The first one got it got a ton of love, but I think people I mean maybe sleeping on the second one. So >> is there is there a poly market on it? >> Like box market on um on the the box office. So >> look at this. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> There you go. >> Wow. Wow. How much How much do you think that costs? >> Uh, I have no idea. You know better than me about about AdWords. >> Google's up 7%. So, I thinking >> renting Devil Wars product too. All right. That's a good one, Rob. I like it. I can get behind that.

>> I mean, I like listen, I think all of us listen to the PTJ uh invest like the best, which was actually the best content of the year. >> I'm just I'm just boring, guys. I I That's That's a read. >> I got one. I just started a new book because mostly for the reason that six of my last six recommendations were either invest like the best or David Sen. I just really need to see more interesting and creative than that. So I just started a new book by Jack Weatherford about it's like the book about Genghaskhan. So it's called Genangghaskhan and the and the making of the modern world.

>> Yeah, >> dude. So good. You should read the sequel to that Mongol Queens which is no one really knows. >> Oh yeah, I saw that. Genghis died >> like most of like his daughters like inherited the emp part of the empire. >> Yeah. So Mike is going through this uh hardcore history just like every day just hours of hardcore history and then you know we talk basically calls me and we talk about the business and then we talk about history nerdy stuff. and he was like, "Look, one of the, you know, one of the interesting episodes he just he just got through the Mongol episode of Hardcore History and they were talking about how uh the this Yeah, this idea of revisionist history basically like Genghaskhan was like this horrible horrible horrible human who killed more people than anyone in history until Hitler came along and you know, and then

at some point we started like liking Genghaskhan. So, it's uh and and this book was kind of the book that kicked off a lot of the revisionist history or so or so this podcast makes the claim. So, yeah, I'm excited to read it. Rob, you'll have to let us know. I hope you enjoy the show, man. >> Well, I mean, the the other thing, by the way, what everybody should be watching right now, too, is NBA playoffs. So, >> who's on the final? >> Well, it is the first round still. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, but you know, I went went to the Knicks game this week. Um, and you know, they they blew out the Hawks. Cavs are up 3-2. Two teams I care about. So, >> Knicks are up 3-2, right?

>> Yeah. Knicks are up 3-2 and the Cavs are up 3-2. >> Yeah. You're a Cavs fan, right, Rob? >> I'm a huge Cavs fan, but because I've lived in New York for as long as I have, I I uh they're like my second team. And so, I went to the I went to the game on >> on uh I guess that was Tuesday in in um you know, >> isn't there a Oh, go ahead. >> No, I was about to say it was just, you know, it was a lot of people were there so that the person in front of me kept zooming in and taking pictures of Timothy Shalamé. Like literally, I spent the entire time not watching the game taking pictures Timothy Shalom. So, it's a fun event at the Go to the Garden.

>> Yeah, Nick's Nicks in the playoffs. Uh Nick's in the playoffs is a good time. >> Isn't there a Miami GP this weekend for people that are going to consensus and stuff like that? Rob, are you going? >> I'm not going. I'll I'll be at Milin instead. So >> nice. Nice. >> Right on. All right, folks. It's all we got. I'll be in Miami. If you're at Consensus, say what's up. Cheers, folks. Have a good weekend.