The Best of Bell Curve

Transcript

Hey everyone here. Just a quick note before we dive into today's episode. Bell Curve is going to be taking a short summer break while the team recharges and enjoys some well-deserved time off. We've been on the air for three years. Uh never missed an episode. Uh well, maybe a couple episodes, but we never go on for a month off in the summer. Uh so appreciate you all. Uh bear with and we'll miss you. And we're not going to leave you totally hanging because we're basically going to be having a highlight reel of some of the moments that you've loved. Consider it a uh a best of bell curve over the last three years. So enjoy the highlights and we will see you back in September. Quick shout out to today's sponsor, Katana. We'll hear more about Katana's 1 billion CAT campaign later today. But for now, let's get into

the episode. Hey everyone, quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode. Nothing said on Bell Curve is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only, and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Our guests and I may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. The following clips are from our episode titled Hyperlquid's bold vision for DeFi. In this interview, we sat down with Jeff, co-founder of Hyperlquid, to discuss Hyperlid's origins, their decision to build an L1, and the architecture behind Hyperlid. We also discuss MEV mitigation, builder deployed per balancing vertical integration with ecosystem growth. Enjoy.

You know what I found myself wondering, you know, when we're describing this and maybe to just, you know, again rewind and summarize sort of the history of of Hyperlid, uh, which is it kind you guys kind of started as a perplex, um, with via bridge to via arbitum, right? Like kind of the, uh, that's originally how a bunch of the, um, the assets flowed into Hyperlid and now you built your own sort of instantiation of the EVM um, and our bonafide L1, right? And uh you know I'm curious when I think about what you guys are experimenting with um a lot of other protocols especially on Ethereum might have thought about building an L2 right um and when I look at you know what like Monad is trying to do today or base uh you know they're all kind of experimenting around um what changes

they can make to the EVM because that's kind of the bottleneck for throughput um at this point uh but they've chosen to build this in L2 with a singleized se or a centralized sequencer. you guys have gone in another direction and are innovating and experimenting with your own sort of souped-up version of the EVM, but you also want to build as an L1. So talk to me about that design design decision. Why L1 versus like an ETH L2? >> Yeah, mon is an L1 too. So I think it's I think the examples you give maybe like the common thread is that they're like vanilla EVM execution as opposed to sort of expanding the sort of execution logic.

Would that be a fair summary of the question? Yeah, that's a that's a fair summary. I mean, I think this is also a challenge of the L2s in general as well is like the backward compatibility which is obviously that you you want to kind of build on this uh you know ecosystem of developers uh who are used to building in the EVM but also you want to make some changes so you can increase performance because there are some real limitations around the EVM. So um >> yeah um >> it's a good question. I I think yeah there are many sides there there are many answers to this like one of them is a practical one just that like >> you know initially the priority was just to get something that users wanted at all and the easiest way was to not worry about an EVM but

>> I think at this point we have the luxury to kind of like zoom out a bit and say like what what is the correct thing to do given that all of finance sort of should happen on one platform and I think I think even even sort of retrospectively if we could have changed anything I don't I don't think I would have um I think I think the EVM is great. I think it's really good for like maybe a good analogy I think is like the EVM is the EVM is to like all of finance as AMMs are to like all of trading. So it's really good to cover this like super long tail. I think people underestimate like just how long the tail is of like things that can be done in finance. in a similar way like AMMs cover super

longtail liquidity where like if there only like five people in the world who want to trade some asset like an AMM is like probably the best way to sort of coordinate that trading. Um so I don't I don't think it's good or bad. It just like has its use cases and I think if you want if you want a platform that can house all of finance, it cannot just be built on on an EVM no matter how performant the EVM is. Uh and like maybe like one example which we kind of gave we we gave this example like way back just when we were like even starting Hyperloop because there were a bunch of questions like why isn't it just built on an EVM? Um and the example is just like if you have a perpex and uh with with a perex is just the the

number one concern is risk for the system and the hyperlquid has I can like write down these like just like mathematically prove to you that like hyperlquid is solvent like the purpose every purpose market is solvent at every block and of course there there can be bugs in implementation etc but I mean like theoretically there's there's like there's no way for the system to have bad debt assuming you implemented everything correctly. And um but I would not be able to do this for an EVM base per deck because there's no there's no execution guarantees like you can you can never >> uh with an EVM it's always there's always some sort of like auction system or otherwise to determine which transactions go through. Whereas

uh on a custom execution environment, you can say well like at you know when this block happens like we need we need to do these things to make sure the the per the per balances like kind of are all positive or or whatever condition you want like um positive within some bound or whatever you can basically like you can basically say like this logic needs to execute on every block no matter what user they're submitting. Um I think that's like super important for derivatives. So yeah, I think like longtail spot trading um no no need if if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But um but yeah, the when the ambitions are bigger, I think you kind of need to look beyond and kind of you have to question everything and say like is this really the best way to do things.

>> One theme that we're uh very interested in this season is this idea of vertical integration. And when you look at a lot of the dexes in Ethere or in um crypto today, uh you're starting to see a little bit of that, right, which is like unis swap is a really good example of a protocol that started at the AMM layer and they're kind of going up and down the stack, right, towards the distribution layer of having their own, you know, UI uh like desktop UI and then their own wallet and then down the stack to their own chain. You can look at like the recent uh competition between Pump Fun and Radium in Salana is another good example. Jupiter is the same thing. And so, you know, I think especially like UI is super super critical when it comes to exchanges, which is maybe what is the

the sort of driving force here. But, you know, I'm curious on, you know, on your thoughts in general on the idea of vertical integration when it comes to uh dexes, whether or not, you know, how Hyperlid thinks about that, what areas of the stack are the most important for you to have, you know, direct control over. And then, you know, you mentioned at the beginning of this episode that or actually I heard you in sorry, ZeroX research episode that I was listening to before this, you know, there are so many things that you need to get right. You need to design the right environment for traders, for market makers, but you also have to get the UI stuff right, which has been a real challenge in the per space so far. Obviously, until um you know, you guys have done a really good job on moving the ball forward there,

but talk to me about how you think about vertical integration in general. And then UI, right? Like what is what is important to get right from a trader perspective here. Yeah, I think the so I think vertical integration is is obviously super good as like a business decision. Like if if you're just like a traditional company, you want to own as much of the stack as possible. Um, I think it's like part of that is just like it's it's often unclear where the value occurs, but another part of that is just reducing the overhead of like if you have like many people you you need to rely on to uphold their part of the deal, then you're kind of your ultimate

user experience is only as good as the weakest link in that chain. So, and I think that's also true in crypto, but I think there's a bit of there's a bit more tension in crypto, which is that sort of owning the full stack is also a bit antithetical to I think the like what DeFi should be. Um like I think DeFi is more resilient if there are multiple possible choices at each layer of the stack. And so if any one of them, you know, is compromised or just goes down or like whatever like loses

starts going in the wrong direction and like stops prioritizing the right things that that that like ultimately the you can find some path through these um like different options at each step. You can like find some path that's like still pretty good and you know that like creates a much more robust financial system. So it kind of depends what you're optimizing for. Um, from Hyperlquid's perspective, I don't I don't think it's like a huge basically like we we we never even seriously entertain the idea of building everything in finance. And so, um, I think when the like when the vision is that big, it it's nec like necessarily built by many people. And and I'm very

I'm very bullish personally on like coordination through protocols, not through like management. Like you have like a 10,000 person company, you probably build all all the finance like everyone's super good and coordinated and whatever. But like I just I just feel like that's that's a I just don't see that happening in the real world. And so like the next best thing is like 10,000 people coordinating across you know a thousand companies like each building their own pieces and like um in a thoughtfully designed protocol to coordinate those efforts. And I think that's that's where I see Hyperlquid being. And yeah. Yeah. I think it's just like the the end state is so massively impactful and just like there's just

like so it's just like such a valuable enterprise as a whole like finance that I don't think it matters if like Hyperloop doesn't need to capture all of it. That's like a super greedy perspective. I think um I think if you're like if you're like yeah I'm I'm doing this like one super small segment then yeah maybe you actually care about squeezing out every last bit of profit for your shareholders or whatever but um when you're building a protocol to power all the finance I think the the perspective is more like um it's just like like let's just like grow the pie and um you know if if this thing if this thing is to succeed like everyone's going to be like so happy that um yeah doesn't matter.

There's maybe one area of like um sort of vertical integration that we've seen across a lot of exchanges that I'd be curious for your take on which is um we've seen a lot of like centralized exchanges try to capture some of the economics from the stable coin balances that are held on exchange. So Coinbase has this uh very lucrative distribution uh agreement with Circle where they get a lot of the uh the carry. Um, Binance several different times has tried to either partner or kind of like white label their own stable coin to capture some of that uh huge amount of of like yield that's just latently um being generated on all the the stables that are on their exchange. And I think that's a really interesting angle

because it's taking money that's completely outside of it's not like taking from builders or users. It's just taking money from basically the US government and injecting it into your ecosystem. So, um I'm curious if like Hyperlid has any uh if you have any thoughts about, you know, how to capture some of this uh economic juice from all the USDC on chain uh on Hyperlid, whether that's, you know, agreements with Circle or with Coinbase or, you know, maybe even having another kind of white labelled stable coin or something like that.

Yeah, it's not currently something we're working on. Uh I I think your question sort of highlights the point that there's just so much lowhanging fruit that like it's kind of hard to believe but you know there yeah there are like billions of dollars like of stables sitting on Hyperlid but up until now the priority has not been that like that has actually not been the low low hanging fruit like um yeah that's maybe like more than hund00 million of yield at this point But also the the protocol makes annualized like five to 10x that you I don't know the exact details like not enough data points exactly to extrapolate a year but

um but I think you get my point which is like just there's just like so many things to do and um yeah I think I think it would be cool eventually for um the protocol slash users to be able to have all all sorts of benefits And I think this is what kind of what happens when all of finance moves onto one chain. It's you get to kind of um if if that chain is designed thoughtfully and not greedily like not not as a sort of company company maximizing extraction but rather um a company maximizing just cool that can be done then uh yeah I think I think all this stuff

becomes possible. >> This episode is sponsored by Katana. Katana is a DeFi first chain built for deep liquidity and real yield by redirecting chain revenue back to active DY users. The 1 billion KAT campaign is live. Bridge and deposit directly into vaults in one simple click and start earning immediately on your Ether, Bitcoin, USDC, and more. Follow the link in today's show notes to get started. We're entering crypto's cloud era and IGEN layer just launched IGEN Cloud to power it. Just like AWS transformed the internet, IGEN cloud is a full developer platform that gives developers cloud-grade programmability with cryptograde verifiability on any chain.

To learn more about how the IGEN token is securing a new class of verifiable apps and how to get exposure to this growing class of crypto infrastructure, follow them on X at IGEN layer. As always, investments in blockchain technology involve risk terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. The following clip is from our episode titled How Bitcoin Prepared Us for the Memecoin Era. In this interview, we sat down with Murad to bridge the gap between Bitcoin maximalism and memecoins. We dove into the exponential growth of altcoin bubbles, parallels between NFTts and memecoins, and finding cult-like communities. Additionally, we asked ourselves, how important is revenue? Is Bitcoin a memecoin? Can older altcoins ever come back? Finally, we unpacked the four-year crypto cycle.

Enjoy. So, help me th uh like connect these two versions of yourself because one, you've got Morad, the Bitcoin maximalist, and most of the Bitcoin maximalists that I know or follow don't really look too kindly on memecoins, right? They have a very disparaging sort of view of it or anything that isn't necessarily Bitcoin. It's a you know, a distraction at best and kind of um uh you know, there there's obviously a worse way of looking at it as well. So, walk us through how did you get from like help help us bridge the gap there between these two sides of you? Yeah, for sure. But we So, first of all, we need to understand that your opinions as a um trader and then your opinions as kind of a long-term investor

>> and then your opinions as sort of like a monetary guy and your opinions like from an ideology perspect like those can all be completely different, right? So, depending on the angle from which you view the situation, your opinion would be different. Um, I actually, as crazy as it sounds, think that sort of the the thousands of blogs and books and all of that Bitcoin maximus literature is was kind of like perfect preparation to understand memecoins. And the reason for that is um can be concisely explained with horseshoe theory, which um I'm sure you've heard about before. The sense being that a lot of people look at many

different things, but for example, the uh kind of political spectrum as a line wi where the far right and far left, for example, are the polar opposites, right? But a lot of people have noted the extreme similarities between the two and really they are much more similar than they are different, right? >> Yeah. I think that the memecoin super cycle which is currently in my opinion underway or in the early stages of it are obviously a byproduct of kind of like the VC token industrial complex that exists in crypto

>> which itself is a byproduct of kind of like the fiat monetary system right so uh memecoins existing it they they they kind of arise emergently because of outside forces, right? And if you study sort of a dozen or so trends inside the crypto industry and combine them with a dozen or so trends that are kind of happening in the world at large, the fact that something like this is happening starts to be seen as less crazy, right? But um Bitcoin is a money Right. But memecoins, they are not a money. Some people think of them as

social currencies. I don't believe they are. Um they are something different altogether. And uh however there are many things uh which bitcoin and memecoins share at least the best ones and that is sort of their extreme cultiness, right? their extreme almost like a neo relligious type zeal that their holders embody >> and from that particular perspective there are a ton of similarities right I don't want to kind of run ahead of myself but um definitely happy to dig deeper into that topic uh kind of in the in the in the coming minutes

>> yeah okay so there's a ton that I want to dig on there dig in there with you so I love the I love the horseshoe theory I actually just finished watching Pey Blinders. There's a great speech. I don't know if you ever seen that show, but it's a great speech that the protagonist gives about, you know, he's referring to fascism and socialism, and he's like, you know, you go far enough on the right and the left and you meet, and then there's just me in the middle trying to have an honest business. I was like, damn, I bet a lot of people feel like that at the current moment. But here's the way that I would connect uh Bitcoin and memecoins is that there's the same underlying catalyst and driver. And the same underlying catalyst and driver is this structural issue with the credit-based fiat system that we all

have, right? the money is breaking and so there are a couple of on the one hand what that should do is push people towards a much more fundamentally sound alternative right which is Bitcoin the other thing that a breaking fiat uh currency system does is push people towards speculation right and this happens during periods of inflation as well uh just hey you know my money is depreciating and there's no way to get ahead so I might as well take these really super risky behaviors and just gamble right and so there's the same underlying cause but it manifests itself in very different ways. And so on the one hand, if you're, you know, if you're bullish on Bitcoin, the irony is you should probably be really bullish on things like memecoins and maybe previously this was NFTTS and things

like that. Is that roughly the way that you see them or or I don't know what what's your thought on that? >> Yeah, I mean you I I'm pretty much aligned with what you just described. >> Um, it pretty much boils down to empathizing with retail because If this particular cycle that we are in is anywhere even remotely similar to the past two or three cycles in crypto, then the we need to understand that kind of like the the altcoin complex that exists, the VC business model that exists in crypto um and the parabas that often occur in kind of year four of these cycles. None

of these can exist without an a sudden influx of retail, right? And if you kind of mic microeconomically put yourself in the shoes of a retail person, >> they probably understand that again if they kind of like mirror think and they sort of anticipate some kind of a parabola in 2025, they know that the 3x or whatever that Bitcoin still might have in it is not going to sort of change their life, so to speak, right? Mhm.

>> And of course, of course, Bitcoin is sound money and I expect it to eventually become the global monetary reserve. However, it is going to take time. This is probably a 15 to 25 year affair in general, right? And so because this inflation and this sort of expansion in global money supply pushes people further down the risk curve, >> right? We need to understand for example if we look at 2016 2017 that was the cycle of kind of Ethereum ICOs and altcoins right

>> four years later 2021 we had DeFi Gamefy NFTts and like a lot of like Ponzi or Ponzomic like like experiments as well as some like metaverse stuff like in late 2021 one right? >> Yeah. >> Now, the way I see it is the rapidly growing money supply around the world is mentally affecting um kind of people's mental health and also possibly even people's hormones like at a molecular level. A lot of like not many people make a connection

between like fiat money and mental health, but Bitcoiners talk about that a lot. Uh, and they've been talking about this since like 2014. And this is why I jokingly say that all of the Bitcoin maxi literature was kind of perfect preparation for this because um I I jokingly say that we will probably see VHimar before we see Label Epoch, right? And so essentially I think that we will see hyper memecoinization before we see hyper bitcoinization.

Right? And uh it is logical in my mind that the core altcoin narrative of each cycle needs to become quote unquote crazier. Right? And even beyond crypto, if you look at financial bubbles and technological bubbles, the asset class or the asset category that particularly lends itself well to parabas or bubble- like formation, it's things that are difficult to value.

It's things that people don't really have a clear framework or a clear consensus as to how to price them. And in from this particular perspective, I think the fact that memecoins don't have any revenue and in fact they take this a level further and they don't even offer a technological product or any sort of software or a platform. It's actually a huge advantage. It's actually a gigantic advantage in fact uh because and I and I know this sounds like weird and almost sort of I paradoxical but um if there's no clear metrics other than price itself and a

few derivatives of price then it is a perfect product for these sort of parabolic type moves to occur. And again as I'm saying this you please differentiate between me sort of the multi-deade predictor and me the sort of like the two years out person who's trying to find like the biggest category outperformers right because these are two separate jobs. >> Shout out to today's sponsor Katana. Katana is a DeFi first chain built for deep liquidity and high yield. No empty emissions just real yield and sequencer fees routed back to DeFi users.

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following clip is from our episode titled Everything You Need to Know About Crypto Treasury Companies. In this episode, we were joined by Jeff Park to explore the financial engineering behind Bitcoin Treasury Companies, convertible debt, preferred equity, and the sustainability of these treasury vehicles. It would be helpful to kind of just like go through not like the entire history of Sailor, but you know, he starts with this kind of dead software company. I'm assuming he does kind of like at the market issuance of equity. You know, he gets bigger and bigger and then he eventually taps the convertible debt market. Like maybe just like a little bit of his path and then, you know, I guess one question that I had at least is when are you big enough to actually

tap the convertible debt market and and maybe like some commentary around how that was initially received and how it's evolved would be great. >> Yeah, great question. I think um there's like levels to how you get your equity to be valuable beyond the price action which is that you have to build like an ecosystem of liquidity and a thriving options chain and a variety of like multi-player dynamics to bring some energy to to the stock beyond like just being valuable from market cap perspective. And so that takes time. I think that's why Sailor uh for the most part is the leader in the space because he's been around the longest to create some of that durable moat for the liquidity provisioning that has been

very hard to replicate without that first mover advantage. Um and also to the context of the credit market um today we take for granted that most and actually all of sailor's convertible debt are issued at 0% coupon from a cash interest perspective. But that's not true from its history. in its original history when it first tapped the credit market they were cash paid interest rates. In fact, he used to have this subsidiary um called Macro Strategy as part of the entity that would hold Bitcoin and it was not actually part of Micro Strategy and it was ring fenced.

That's all changed of course in the way that Micro Strategy has grown up to fully become a Bitcoin native treasury operation and company. But you're asking the right questions, Vance, as to like how do these evolutions happen and um and at what what are the kind of parameters in which these things are permitted. I think for the credit market in particular, uh there's a certain size for issuances that makes it meaningful for institutional investors. And from my experience of having been a credit investor before joining Bitwise, the difference between 250 as an issuance and above is a pretty material um level from a threshold perspective. And if you want to imagine issuing 250 million or so where the debt to equity ratio is

manageable for what is otherwise a Bitcoin operation, you'd have to imagine the market cap has to grow to a certain level for that to be permissible. And to date, I think strategy has generally wanted that debt leverage to be very low, right? Somewhere in the 10% range, maybe a little bit higher, but but really not your typical debt to equity ratio of like most corporates that access the credit market. Some of it I think is endogenously driven by sailor not wanting to overextend. But I would also imagine the other side is that the convert market too doesn't want to actually tap into a leverage profile where they would actually be at risk and you want to account for the volatility of Bitcoin's historic draw down to 80% for which some of that debt to equity

ratio can be informed. Um, I think the amazing thing is nonetheless, Sailor has been able to retire those old legacy issuances and has now fully transformed into tapping the convert markets to his advantage with 0% cash interest rate and then has actually ventured into a new frontier by accessing what historically has been a very very boring what I call like the armpit of corporate securities uh the preferred market and uh is trying to make it into a much more vibrant ecosystem through now I think he has over four different types of prep equity instruments since the beginning of this year and that has has never been done

before. Uh pre equity is generally not accessed by retail investors. They don't have a shelf registration. They don't have tickers and we have to give sailor some credit for uh bringing upon an era of new financialization where prep equities becoming cool again, sexy again with retail investors finding that to be a worthwhile endeavor. Ju just one one last question. So he he starts with like these ATMs. He's like selling just like normal shares, you know, as he's kind of in whatever year he started buying Bitcoin at like 13,000 and then he does the converts after he's like big enough and now he's kind of gone back to equity, but it's like differently constructed versions of equity that kind of look a little bit

like debt. Is is that right? >> Yeah, that's right. That's right. So I think what Sailor unlocked either intentionally or unintentionally is that the convert investors have a have a very different motivation to playing the game. And uh some of it is that the entire business of convertible arbitrage is founded upon extracting value from very high volatility that can be mispriced. And because Micro Strategy is such a volatile stock based upon of course its holdings of Bitcoin itself being very volatile, he was able to give Convert Investors a kind of an absolute yield that historically is not possible without very high undue volatility.

Usually when the undue volatility is high, it's because the company is at default risk. And so as a lender, you almost never want to touch it. But here the reflexive thing being if the volatility is coming from pristine collateral which in itself is a collateral for lenders to feel comfort around you get the best of both worlds. You get high volatility but you also get this asset back credit like profile and having collateral for liquidation. So very unique phenomenon. He taps into it and then quickly finds out that this alignment is actually really good for equity which is that converts are happy to uh become equity at a much higher price. Hence having coined the term a creative dilution around this construct for which they are able to give equity

investors an equally worthwhile push for the monetization of its volatility. At the same time, I think what sailors rec uh realized is there are sometimes adversarial market dynamics that can arise out of these participants. So, for example, let's say you're converted investor, right? That means you're basically long a call option on Micro Strategy that is way out of the money. And if you were to basically hedge that exposure every day from a market neutral perspective of monetizing that gamma, you're essentially going to go out and create dynamics that lead to mean reversion in the stock price. So meaning let's say I'm long this call option and stock price goes up a lot. So my delta

gets really high. Let's say my delta went from 10 delta to 30 delta with a gamma. So now I'm really long the stock. you as a convert manager, you have to go sell the stock now to flatten that risk out. So what that means is as the stock price goes up, you're counteracting that dynamic by selling stock into the market, therefore reducing its upward momentum. And the effect is the same the other way around. If the stock goes down and your delta is going down, you as the convert manager have to buy back the stock. This is called long gamma hedging. And long gamma hedging historically mutes volatility. And so once you become big enough that trading activity in itself can be a volatility impediment and that I think is what sailor has also realized. If you make

convert investors too big of your market participants they can also mute volatility which is the exact opposite of the outcome you want to achieve. And so there is a delicate balance on how much convert investors you want in the ecosystem thriving alongside other investors in the pool. Following clip is from our episode titled Entering Ethereum's new era. In this episode, we discuss Ethereum's evolving culture and product focus. We also dive into Ethereum's DeFi and RWA dominance, scaling the L1, real-time proving breakthroughs, and Ethereum's long-term vision. Enjoy.

It seems like Ethereum is really running away with uh the DeFi market and the RWA sort of tokenization market. And you know, Tom, Tomas, I'd be curious to get your perspective on this. Um, because yeah, it it seems like uh and and actually it seems like the and this is why I think there's so much debate about REV uh in general is just because if you're I guess it depends on like obviously certain chains are set up to do better on certain metrics, right? Um and so whenever a metric gets created, the chain that you know looks good based on that metric, you know, champions it and uh you know the other chains push back and >> define your own KPIs.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um whereas in reality I think there's a lot you we haven't actually defined what REV is. So I can circle back to that um at the end. But I I would be curious Tomas if you think uh and I'm curious why do you guys think it's been so sticky um with DeFi on Ethereum? And similarly, it kind of seems like Salana is running away with consumer in general. Uh, but I'm curious if you see these use cases being sticky to one chain or another. And why do you think it's DeFi that seems to be taking off on Ethereum versus maybe consumer or run on Salana? >> Um, yeah, sure. Like there's definitely definitely aspect of the pre-existing liquidity and all the all the components of DeFi that are there that you can later compose and uh and take advantage

of larger larger finance larger users to uh to be there and and creating liquidity space and and feed generation now. Yes, as you say like when when you have consumers when you have the gambling aspects meme coins and so on. So definitely we've seen it much much more on Salana in the in the last year or so and and it's not that we don't want to see it on Ethereum. absolutely do want to see it in Ethereum and Ethereum was going through that scaling road map of saying let's let's see L2 scaling massively that activity and then towards the end of last year we felt like oh wow yeah we we're there like it's it's scaled it's available and I think we arrived maybe just like a a few

months too late for some of those uh some of those applications and projects to launch on the O2s when they were getting ready uh but I think that now we are ready to take it back and then as we progressing towards the integration of all the layers together all the L2s then you should see the network effect and those application should be very comfortable coming back to to launch an allus and say yeah like we can we can run it at the same at the same speed but yeah it will be challenged to look at are there some UX onrem components are there already some users of this uh new wave that just uh stay on salon and feel very comfortable there and and how you attract them to uh to Ethereum space. So

this will be for sure an effort but also we see a lot of signals that uh many applications are ready to to launch on L2s are launching on L2s on Ethereum and and it's not like suddenly everything escaped and there'll be many builders feeling like okay this this was the innovation how I can how I can evolve on this how I can experiment with it also on uh on Ethereum and many of the like old builders or G from Ethereum are coming back and I say oh actually this this is a fresh mom and this is like the crisis, the battle, I want to come back and I have lots of ideas I want to launch. Uh and what we received as an ask is is to build this uh spaces, communities uh super team-like

structures where we support uh support new builders, new founders on Ethereum to to launch applications. So this has to happen and it's it requires some effort coordination between uh different institutions, L21, Ethereum Foundation, uh incubators, accelerators. We're welcoming them now a lot to Ethereum to collaborate with Ethereum Foundation on accelerating those pipelines to just say hey we we are ready and we were we were asleep for a while and and sorry for that and uh let's build it there is lots of excitement we run the events where lots of new builders lots of new fresh blood is coming to the ecosystem and and we will be building with hardware with AI uh and we very much very much welcome all the like trading or or gambling

experiments it's it was fun and like so many builders from Ethereum that now now are super serious were starting with absolutely absolutely silly ideas years ago. [Music]