Bankless Daily Gwei Livestream

Transcript

what's up anthony how's it going hey man what's up just staring down like a bunch of dragons and demons and a big big computer box right next to you your room looks fantastic man yeah yeah thank you thank you it's uh it's the dream room basically that i've had since i was a i was a teenager always wanted a room like this so made it happen uh and your ideals and your goals just hadn't changed since you were there uh for this room no not really i always wanted like a nice kind of like room with my computer in it with all my you know worldly possessions around me and things like that uh yeah it hasn't changed since then um which is which is funny because even my friend said to me like yeah you were talking about this like 15 years ago man

you finally did it and i'm like yeah yeah it's weird how it didn't really change so yeah no it's it's it's cool but uh yeah man um crazy crazy since we last did this i think two months ago a lot has happened in the ecosystem since then yeah i i similarly like like you always had a goal of putting my name on top of big sports stadiums and so that was the big piece of news that came out today out of bankless is we now have a sports stadium named after us i don't know if you saw that yeah i saw that yeah yeah yeah and it's not an april fools joke because it's april 2nd for me so oh i guess then the gig is up huh gigs up over here yeah i have to experience april fool's twice like 48 hours of just shitty jokes

and oh man it's terrible i can't use the internet for like two days it's so bad okay so i i know we both have read vitalik's article uh so i want to get your thoughts on that uh vitalik wrote an article called uh defending bitcoin maximalism and uh this is the second blog post that he's released on april april four first uh i think it was like three years ago he made uh he submitted an eip i think for imposing a hard cap on on on ethereum and it was one of those things where like we no one actually has any total like complete assurances that he's not being at least a little bit serious about it and so like when you uh when you read but i remember reading the the hardcap

proposal and then also reading this one it felt like reading something that uh reflects a little bit of how you interpret it as you read it right it's a it's a joke and it's an april fool's joke but like it's really a joke that is meant to be interpreted by the interpreter what were your thoughts on on his uh on his piece i i mean i thought he basically perfectly still manned the the bitcoin maximalist argument um better than a bitcoin maximus could like he explained it so by far and and you're right about the interpretation thing where i was reading it and i was like you know what i actually agree with a lot of this uh just not with bitcoin with ethereum right like because i'm coming at it from an ethereum angle and you know the funny thing is i the

more i thought about it more i was like well you know i i pretty much have always held these beliefs i just think that uh bitcoin is the wrong implementation of them like personally i think ethereum is the better implementation but i mean yeah vitalik does this where he'll post something and he'll be like yeah it's kind of like it's april fools but like i'm being serious like a meta april fool's joke and the hardcup one was really funny because it basically i think the goal for him is to get people to kind of like look within and think really deeply about this stuff and be like oh you know what if it isn't a joke and like that gets people thinking more deeply about it and then they're like oh no no no that you know this is actually the way it is and that's how you know i think

that's when if you're in community at that point not maybe decided not to have a hard cap but really kind of like challenged our assumptions about it and was like okay yes no a hard cap for a theorem is actually not a good idea given the theorem's kind of design and everything and i think with the the maximalist piece he was trying to get us to basically see the other the other argument and see how it applies to ethereum as well and not to fall into the the hardcore kind of parts that the bitcoin maximus and community has fallen into right the the number the things that i actually felt were actual jabs in his piece where the thing where the i think it was like three times three instances of him uh joking about how uh

the classic the bitcoin maxi take being satirical here is that like if you uh give up one concession then clearly you're going to have to give up every single one and like vitalik is very much like in the in the mindset of you can compromise without having to compromise too much we can find a goldilocks zone and it's not going to rot our values by giving up a little bit like we have the common sense and the ability to say we're going to compromise here but then no more and and it's not a slippery slope whereas there was like three jokes in in his uh his bitcoin maxi piece that we're all about like well clearly we can't give up anything because if we give up anything then we then we give up everything and i think that was the time where it's like okay this is vital just

being like completely like absurdist yeah yeah yeah and i've always thought about that as well because bitcoin maximums love to make that argument the super slippery slope thing where they're just like you know you change one parameter what's to stop someone else from changing the other and the typical argument that gets brought up is uh scalability right like so you know bitcoin is the least scalable blockchain in out there or maybe cardano is i don't know but bitcoin definitely not very scalable at leo yeah yeah but but but then um you know they didn't want to increase the block size and all that they had their war over it but then ethereum comes along and i mean effectively ethereum is more scalable at layer one increase the block size a little bit but then does a bunch of other things to increase scalability at layer one and then people say well

what's to stop something else from going even further than that and then we have like the solana's of the world which have basically said well we're to have everything in data centers and it's going to be like super hard for anyone to run one of these kind of like nodes unless you've got a lot of money and i get that slippery slope but the thing is they're applying it to different instances in that in that respect it's like saying while ethereum did this what's to stop them from going even further well what's to stop us is that we we understand that there is a goldilocks zone as you said and we want to get into that zone and don't go don't go any further than that but i think the bitcoin maximalists think that as soon as you cross that as soon as you kind of like make that

concession you're open to making all the concessions and that's just not how life works in general like it doesn't and it and and i think yeah vitalik actually got that point across uh pretty well i i believe okay what other april fools jokes have you seen out there that were worth talking uh we'll get to that a second uh zero hedge retweeted vitalik's article taking it completely seriously did you see that yeah yeah i saw that yeah yeah i love i love that because of the fact that that's exactly what vitalik wanted he wanted to see like people share it as a serious thing but then halfway through it be like ah oh wait maybe this is a joke um but you know the cardano jokes everywhere like everyone making cardona i even made one uh i don't know if you

watched the the last episode of the delegate refill i did um the intro is a bit different i'm not going to spoil it i haven't watched it yet yeah yeah sorry i made it i made a joke too but yeah man like hazu actually put out a tweet where he said you know today all the bitcoiners are making ethereum jokes and all the ethereums are making cardinal jokes he was so he was so spot on as well but that's just terra as i said it's a terrible terrible time for me especially because of the fact that i have to experience it for so long and you know i saw someone else retweet themselves from years ago saying that april fool's day is the one day people take things you know on the internet as a joke when they should actually take things on the

internet as a joke the other 364 days of the year yeah it's just yeah yeah it's a complete inversion of like i think the last year i think people just talked about there there was more chatter about april fools in the crypto industry last year people were talking about it like a couple days leading up to about hey like you know in two days this is the day we take off from twitter we're like we just don't go on twitter that day because you know it's just a mess and like it was a little bit more tame team this year i don't know why um yeah yeah i mean it was and i actually i had a friend who i don't think he experienced crypto twitter on april fools last year and he's like dude like crypto twitter takes april fools so seriously i'm like dude no it's just the

americans man like they love april fool's like you guys have shoot like it really is like something you guys absolutely love doing i don't see any of the other kind of cultures and countries out there doing it to the extent that you guys do to be honest i was never really much of an april fool's uh day person but but ryan was all about it last year and and that's when our april fool's joke last year was that we got acquired by wells fargo and like when he was gonna say he was gonna send out this uh this email and it was gonna be just like this classic april fool's thing it's like bankless gets quiet by well fargo and in my mind i was like ryan like everyone's gonna believe this this is ridiculous he's like are you serious like this is this is kind of a

lame joke and then we and then he sent it out and so many people believed it and i was so shocked i was like oh my god i completely like misjudged like sometimes like people are just not reading critically like bankless got acquired by wells fargo and we lost like two over 200 subscribers because people were like you guys are sellouts i believed in you i can't believe you would do this it was ridiculous bro you know what i thought what i find really funny is that it kind of shows how humans are inherently kind of like trusting from the like at face value they like to trust and take things because i don't think they're going to be lied to by everyone and not to get all kind of like you know grand about this but this really does speak to a wider issue in society and

the incident in general where people believe things that they read on the internet without questioning them at all and you know obviously the media plays a big part and things like that and april fool's day it was always a chance to kind of like see like how easily people are like you're totally right i think like the conclusion i came to is that like you know some people just forgot to check that it's april 1st right like and everyone that's what everyone makes the comments like i posted the the uh the news of bank list putting the name on the stadium to my instagram story uh and like normies don't know how to engage these things right uh and so like i got so many people saying oh my god congrats that's so huge and then they would follow up oh it's april 1st like it's

always the first reaction to like oh of course this would be like but i guess i guess that's normal right like you can't go outside whenever you're like meet someone on the street you're not like judging them say are you about to lie to me in your next sentence i guess it's normal to assume that but i guess it gets more and more dangerous in like places like twitter especially crypto twitter and land media and the internet mm-hmm yeah yeah i think so again there's like there's a goldilocks zone of trust and mistrust right like but i don't think many people do that these days especially because they're bombarded with so much information uh um but i think uh well speaking of april actually um i haven't asked you are you going to eat amsterdam or going to be in amsterdam you are absolutely okay i

remember you saying you were kind of like on the fence but that was a while ago oh no i'm online yeah you're going i just haven't gotten my hotel yet i got got my plane ticket go on sunday to sunday uh started signing up for some things but i still need to like actually like schedule out my full itinerary but it's going to be awesome bro like some of the content and talks out there are going to be gigapraying frontier level stuff i think it's going to be one of the best like bastions of knowledge on the planet this year yeah yeah i think so and and the fact that it's like in amsterdam where it's a small city there's like great scenery with all the canals and stuff like that a lot of cultures to you know to to bathe in essentially i think i mean i'm

super excited i've never been to amsterdam the only european city i've been to is berlin and that was like awesome right and i know amsterdam berlin like the same same but different like i have a good friend that that lives in amsterdam and and you know we were kind of discussing that but yeah i'm just so excited to like the first for me it's the first time i'll be traveling you know overseas since covert since february 28th denver uh and i went to another crypto conference the other week blockchain week and you guys had a panel on it um but you know and that was different it wasn't like an eighth conference but there were you know it was just good to get back into it i know you've been doing the conference circuit a lot lately but man i think yeah amsterdam is going to be one of the best uh this year

for sure yeah i really really think so and and i think the only other comparable things uh to what i think is coming with amsterdam would be eth cc that happened last february and then probably east denver as well but like i still kind of think that and this is going to be in a league of its own just kind of by the nature of the actual event like the the bottom-up immersion organization rather than the top-down curation uh i think it's pretty cool and really compelling and i don't know how people started organizing all this stuff but like all of a sudden everyone was there talking about really complicated really cool stuff uh and it started just to be a really really good chilling point and it it's it's the structure of it okay so i think emcon would be the only thing else

that i would compare it to even though it's very different like the dev connects being way bigger than mcon way more publicized in in amsterdam but mcon and devconnect definitely have this whole like there is no central organizational structure people just have picked a date and a place and said like all right start making events people and people did it and that's pretty cool i think that's something that only the crypto industry has really done yeah yeah no exactly i think uh yeah i mean that's that's exactly what it is right like it's a it's a bottoms-up thing where you had like i mean there's amsterdam which is being run by is global but then like all these other events around it that have been just created by individuals and they're kind of doing their own venue kind of start getting their own venue getting their

own tickets set up and things like that so so yeah i mean i think the only issue i foresee with it is that the venues i think are quite quite small um and there won't be that many people able to go in there but the thing is as i said amsterdam's a small city there's probably going to be crypto people everywhere like you know around all the venues and things like that so i'm i'm pumped for it man i don't know if you're getting my dog barking by the way he's he's a little bit but not too bad yeah yeah he he saw someone drive past so he's back he's protecting me thank you because you know he's thankful he's gonna he's gonna protect me but all right we're we're 15 minutes into the stream do we start talking about the merge now uh yeah i mean we can we can talk about

like um the price and then we can send it to zero like okay yeah let's talk about the price let's talk about the price yeah uh price is good yeah dude bounce like straight up off of like three thousand two hundred back to three thousand four hundred uh it's that three thousand five hundred almost now oh what the hell right as we're doing this oh yeah right as we're doing this it just started pumping no it's not let's not curse it you know what okay on the topic of the merge and i think what and the price and i think what's more interesting is that the ratio has been going up right bro and and the thing is it's been killing it while everyone's been focused on this uh thing that doe kwon from terra is doing with this kind of like lfg foundation buying bitcoin and only

buying 10 billion dollars worth of btc and yet the ratio is going up and i think there's a big there's obviously a big reason for that and i actually think it's the merge i think finally people are kind of clueing into it mainstream media is covering the merge now they're actually significantly emerging yeah yeah all over bloomberg exactly and then i think that's drawing in more people to stake and that's why we have a long validated queue again the validity queues at like two weeks or something that's last time i checked right and that means it takes two weeks from when you deposit your ether into the deposit contract for your validator to be activated on the beacon chain and uh we have you know over 10 million each staked there's there's so much coming in like i saw a um a spencer noon thread

today where he said that a lot of these is actually coming in via violido and he thinks that's due to a new money coming in like instead of existing money because existing money would have already staked would have already done you know done it on their own or through other solutions like rocketpool but this is actually new net new money coming in because they're like holy [ __ ] like i can get you know five percent or four or five percent right now and then post merge i can get potentially higher than that on my eat as kind of like a risk-free yield i mean the risk is super low when you're staking especially you know if you're even if you're staying on your own it's still very low and i think people are clueing into this and being like holy [ __ ] like and and then

obviously the issue introduction that's coming with the merge and everything so i don't know man like i i remember i i said i think i said to to you or a couple people like a few weeks ago i'm like guys i think the ratio is gonna like bottom here because the merge trade is on like it's it's on in a really big everyone's showing the merch even the people who don't like ethereum is shilling the merch trade right right totally yeah uh luke martin the the prophet maxie podcast guy he he had a show on the merge uh and like bloomberg literally wrote three reports on the merge uh i think it's interesting if we're if we're uh assuming that uh these it's these uh i think spencer newton's threat indicated that was like institutions and like you know funds that were coming in rather than individuals

making the assumption that people are going from having less less or no eath to having eath and staking it like skipping over the holding part and going to the staking part and i guess in in upon hindsight and consideration i think that makes sense because that's how it's being positioned in bloomberg they're like talking about it as the internet bond same with arthur hayes that's how he talked about it it's just like you gotta include it as like the internet bond right and so people i think just even though like the capital appreciation the amount of money you get is much more likely going to be from each number go up rather than yield go up still the existence of the yield changes institutions like perception on to what the asset is right and so it just it drives our connection

straight to the bond market be like okay we can't can't have bonds anymore uh because of you know broken stuff over here but then there's like this e thing with a yield rate and it's like that so maybe we can just plug that hole with ether even though it's a lot more volatile like i feel like that's a logical institutional frame of mind to take i think so and yeah no i think so and i think um funny enough to jen spartan on twitter has actually been talking a lot about this and he has been talking about this for a while now but basically this this notion of traditional finance coming in seeing these kind of like products like each staking and being like wow i can actually package that up and sell it to my customers and charge a nice chunky fee on it and that's like that's like

some of what grayscale has been doing with their funds right where their funds are trash like gbtc and ethiopia absolutely trash right they they fleece retail um you know the smarter people do the arb trade and no they don't intentionally retail i wouldn't no no no i'm not okay no i meant like but yes it's bad for retail it's bad it's bad for retail because they always buy at the premium because it's get you know that the premium happens when the market gets hot and then they get kind of like destroyed with that um so it's not a great product an atf obviously would be a lot better but uh it's kind of similar to that where they just take a fee it doesn't matter if it's if it's up or down the premium is you know positive or negative they're still taking a fee from that and that's

exactly what tradfire is going to do with eat staking they're going to wrap it up into some you know normie boomer product and they're going to sell it to their boomer clients and then that's how a lot of the money's going to come into this ecosystem i think and that's how the wealth transfer is actually going to happen through these centralized intermediaries funneling their existing customer base into crypto through these centralized products and that's totally fine like i don't think that's a that's an issue at all because i mean look at look at the the the amount like i mean look at the active eat supply right now that's trading i think it's like 14 on centralized exchanges or something like that and then obviously you have to count dexes and stuff but it's not very much of the supply then you have the burning then you have the massive

issuance production coming like any kind of spike in demand is going to just absolutely moon eat and i think we're starting to see that right now is that like 8th is so scarce it's become such a scarce asset and it's become such an in-demand asset not just from people but from the network itself burning the eve was i mean even when even when guy was 20 way post merged we would still be deflationary that's that you know that's how efficient the system is going to be post merge so i i think that people are finally clued into that um and uh and yeah yeah i mean it's crazy i i mean yeah i'll i'll actually get up an eighth chart here just uh perfect to illustrate 3 499.99 we're almost there uh okay this is justin drake's uh thesis oh there it is uh there's three thousand

five hundred nice here yeah oh it's mooning oh look at that uh 3510. um this is justin drake's clapping i was like what's that okay that's my soundboard uh this is justin drake's thesis about like the whole or not thesis but uh the mental model of uh uh like frozen eath and then vaporized eth where uh yeah oh yeah that's a good looking chart um so like uh uh vaporized teeth or like boiled eat imagine ether is it's a bunch of water right it's like a bunch of water in a pot it's a it's it's liquidity right so we have 14 of our ether as like liquid ether on the secondary markets right uh and so that's

like literally the liquid form of water for example and then staked east is frozen ether and then boiled like vaporized ether boiled ether steam ether is ether burned by eip1559 and then also eth in in d5 counts is like frozen ether right locked ether and so a lot of ether is locked in either with staking or in d5 i don't know how what percentage of all ether and then you have like the vaporized vaporizing rate which is like substantial and then you have 14 as you just said 14 of ether is liquid on the secondary supply so yields the the freezing force the cooling force of ether it's about to 3x as soon as we merge because that's the the yield is going to

go up by 3x so the incentive to freeze your ether and stake it's going to go up by 3x and then the burn rate's gonna stay the same but the issuance the new flows of water into the center liquid part is going to be cut by 90 percent and so the vaporizing part is going to have much more of a substantial effect while there's more cooling and so the liquidity the 14 is going to go down to like i don't know i'm a much lower number uh and so what you're saying is that when like a hundred dollars when hundred dollars comes in and buys ether now it moves it somewhat but in the future it's gonna move it a lot proportionately a lot more like a hundred dollars will actually have an effect well that's just making numbers up but this is the metaphor no no no i i

think so and i think that's another reason why we're seeing the ratio game as well is that like you know people come in they they're buying eighth instead of instead of bitcoin and it doesn't take much to move the ether price due to that scarcity that you just kind of like outlined there and i mean yeah look look at this show this is like this looks to me the same as over here right like it's it's basically the same pattern and you know i'm not a technical analysis dude but like when i see momentum shifts like this where like it definitely has just shifted bullish like just based on the chart alone not even just the sentiment i just think myself like holy [ __ ] like this cycle has been unlike every other species trying to buck you off bro it is it is though but like if i if you

go to like i mean i hopefully i think this goes back well this is the coinbase chart yeah you kind of like look at that i mean usually you'd see you know in these cycles like a like this right um and that's what you see with bitcoin like all the way all the way straight down but here people thought that was going to happen around here like maybe i'll um i'll get a marker out people thought that was going to happen here right they're like oh it's over like we blow off top you know we went down 60 in a week like i mean i think what happened is we priced it in way too quickly like that was a crazy crash right right and then we had one five five nine hype right and then that went live and then we pumped and then we came back down now

we have the merge hype so i think people need to realize that it's no longer the cycles of bitcoin pumps eat pumps alts pump because it's now actually based on fundamentals rather than i mean there's a lot of speculation but i think that fundamentals are being pricing more and more as time goes on especially for larger assets like eth and that's what a lot of people are missing and that's why they're getting shaken out like some people are getting shaking out look at this crab here that we've had like so many people would have gotten shaken out in this being like oh i'll be going you know we're going to dump another 50 from here but because it's actually logical to believe that given the fact that um it's happened in the past a lot of times especially with bitcoin so i think a lot of the bitcoin traders or a lot of

the og traders are probably thinking what the hell like what's going on the market's actually changed this time actually is different right right yeah at some point it does actually become different right because we we i had this critique going into this this bowl cycle in the last bear market it's like okay people are just talking about the next bull run the next bull cycle like we'll we'll just have the fourth crypto cycle and i'm like well if everyone believes that isn't that just mean it's not going to happen turns out not enough people believed that uh and so it actually did happen but what didn't happen is i would say i would claim that that sentiment was correct but it was correct in the coming bear market not the coming bull market right where the bear market was just going to fake you out over and over and over

again for like three times now basically i'd say um yeah here we are exactly exactly i mean i don't know this this whole period has reminded me of 2019 basically from when we we crashed here in may of 2021 to today because in 2019 we did the same thing we literally we grabbed but we had some pumps in between right we went from like the bottom of 80 to you know 360. whereas we're here we went from the bottom of 1700 back to an all-time high of 4900 right so this whole kind of pattern has just reminded me of 2019 and you know i just just from a child perspective but also from a sentiment perspective where you know 2018 i believe sentiment was like very different to 2019 where no one knew where the bottom was and then 2019

everyone accepted it they're just like you know what this is it like let's keep building whatever and i think that's what happened over the last year or maybe maybe the last six months people like okay well this is what it is it's gonna crab for a while let's just keep building and i think as more as we've got as we kind of like continue on and as more people become quote unquote ogs and people have been around for multiple cycles we change the cycles through sheer will through will of being like no we refused for it to be the same this time because we have all this stuff happening and i actually like i really do think that one five five nine you know is the reason why i eat pumped like last time and the merge now is going to be another reason why it's going up

because as i said like these are not just fundamentals they're fundamentals that directly drive value to eath right you can map it one to one there's no need to speculate you can say okay well there's going to be this much east being burned right and that's going to put the fleshly pressure on each it it will logically be good for the eighth price and then now you have like the merge coming which not only is the issuance reduction incredibly bullish for the merge the 80 to 90 percent but also the narrative around ethereum no longer being proof of work i don't think people i think people really do underestimate how big of a positive driving force that is for ethereum the fact that we can basically say well no we're not proof of work anymore we're proof of stake and all the you know the people that are

basically um fighting the energy use well maybe not all of them but like a nice chunk of them especially the the bigger money are going to be like oh it's safe to invest in this thing now because it's no longer proof of work and i think bitcoin still being proof of work actually works in theorem's favor because then bitcoin gets all the headwinds and takes all the flack and ethereum you know rides off into the sunset quite quite nicely there yeah i really i hate to see it because of all things that like frustrate me about about bitcoiners it's not necessarily the whole proof of work environment thing but also at the same time like you that's you guys you they you guys love proof of work so like how much do you really love proof of work because now you're going to have to go to bat

for it so like i mean this is very glad we don't have to fight that fight this is their final frontier really i mean if if you know that they're going to have to resist the onslaught of all these nation states they're going to have to resist like private money too i mean speaking of of this the other day um the ripple one of the ripple co-founders have spun up an initiative and funded it to change bitcoin to proof of stake right so when i saw that website i was like wow this looks like somebody from the ethereum camp is spinning up an attack on bitcoin and then when i learned that it was the ripple people i was like only they could have done that only they could have like done like put out that speech into words and they killed it it looks like

everyone who doesn't care about crypto would look at that website anyone with a neutral opinion about crypto would look at that website and be like oh bitcoin's bad yeah yeah exactly i think that's the goal like as much as we you know i mean we're not trying to endorse ripley here or anything we hate rip i mean i think ripples are scared to be honest ripples a scam [ __ ] those guys yeah yeah but as you said to the neutral crypto observer that has no idea about the weeds of crypto ripple to them is not a scam ripple is a legitimate thing to a lot of people uh especially you know as i said outside of crypto and they're gonna look at this and they're gonna be like oh well if it's just a simple code change why doesn't bitcoin just change it right yeah

this changes the code like what like we have something better why doesn't they why don't we change bitcoin but then it's going to be even worse because ethereum will do it and people will think that ethereum just changed the code right like they wouldn't know that it was like many years worth of work to get here you know they're going to look at that and be like well if ethereum can do it why can't bitcoin do it who are these like libertarian extremists that love to destroy the planet like who are these people like outlaw exactly exactly so that is going to play a big favor for ethereum it's going to be a massive headwind for bitcoin i've been saying this for for a while now right it's not the way that i want to win like i want ethereum to win because it's fundamentally better than bitcoin and i

don't want to win this way but it's going to win it's going to be a big play playing this yeah yeah exactly and the funny thing is it doesn't matter if all the uh pro proof of work arguments are correct in that proof of work you know saves trapped energy and it it doesn't matter it encourages when you're none of that matters all that matters is the narrative and the narrative is really bad right and and and we've seen like as all talking about earlier people they're bombarded with information and they'll just like a lot of the time believe the first thing that they see from someone that they consider to be trusted or legitimate which you know a lot of people put trust in the wrong people and the proof of work stuff is just such an easy thing to fight it's something literally just saying bitcoin uses the

amount of energy as this country does you know per transaction it's not right it doesn't matter at all it's it's the fact that people believe it and the fact that like um you know it does use a lot of energy that part is right so yeah but also like people are happy to like drum up fake vitriol against some subject if it gives it gives them political capital and attention like people will spin up brands around political forces that they don't care about people do that all the time like there is an insane clamor for just like you know canceled culture has energy and sometimes people just like love canceling stuff and if they are successful at it they become known as the person that canceled the thing and so like exactly people don't even have to hate bitcoin but it's still going to sub like it's going to be cool to hate

on proof of work like hating on proof of work is going to become a huge virtue signal of the next decade and it's just going to be because this one main cryptocurrency and the satoshi guy just refused to change the code like the audacity of not changing to proof the funny thing is there are so many people who do this and i think one of the masters of it is peter schiff he will basically put out tweets all the time like anti-bitcoin tweets and the bitcoiners will engage with him every single time he will get so much free marketing from them they have lots of followers they basically bring all these people to him and even if he only captures one percent of those people to buy his stuff whether it's you know books that he writes or articles that he does or whatever

he still made more money than he would have otherwise right and it doesn't matter if what he says is true or not because all the time it's not a lot of times just complete [ __ ] it doesn't matter at all what matters is that he's getting what he wants out of it which is free attention free marketing and uh it's just hilarious how you know especially bitcoiners who say don't believe this don't believe that you know don't give attention to these people and they give attention to peter schiff the person who's been trolling them for years right no it's ridiculous it's like peter schiff's biggest following are bitcoiners like he doesn't have a gold following there is no gold community there's nothing not on twitter people on twitter right they're all like boomers who love who love god they're not on twitter but he gets the attention

and then he gets like speaking spots he gets kind of like um you know he's just relevant he's just relevant all the time because he's always on twitter exactly so and then and then he's actually played it even better where his son is pro bitcoin so he gets to play both sides of the body of it and it's just dude it's so funny to me that the fact that people like fall for this every single time and it goes back to what we're saying earlier about people just inherently trusting of things and inherently can be baited into things like i could put out a tweet right now saying something about bitcoin like bitcoin's gonna remove its hard cap and i'd bait are so many people into it even though it's an obvious troll or not me obviously trying to shitpost so many people will be like you

don't understand bitcoin you're a pleb and it's like thanks man like i i get it like thanks for the attention you know dude there was a time where like in the depths of the first bear market 2018 our first bear market 2018 2019 where i was like man the bitcoiners are so strong and so unified and their message is so coherent and like our message is just so scattered and they just like control the narrative and they are going to god sometimes i felt like they are just going to eat nation states alive they're like bitcoin is just going to eat the entire government and like now on this side of things like the whole unicorn and rainbow strategy totally won out and like the whole like spartan like bitcoiners just is so cringed now and

like they and this was the thing that i was saying during the 2018 to like 2020 bear market is that the bitcoiners were like we have a hundred bitcoiners for every one ethereum community there there is no ethereum community how do you expect to ever catch up to us and what i said was that the percentage of like bitcoin goldbug equivalent libertarians that are all about crypto that bitcoiners have found in the world they've already found most of them like there's not that many left versus like ethereum ethereum which has so much different like surface area for cultural onboarding there is no limit as to like the social reach of ethereum because it's so agnostic it's just supposed to enable anything to happen rather than bitcoin which is just supposed to enable one thing to happen which is like

bitcoin yeah yeah and i think the perfect example of that is nfts most of the people that came into nfts in the last year are new people new people they're not people that we're here already and that that's the thing ethereum has the the the tam of the entire planet and i and i've believed this since you know probably some of the first days i was into ethereum because i always viewed ethereum as like you know not exactly like but like as like the internet where everyone will have a use out of it and they'll you'll be able to build apps for everyone like i don't use everything on the internet right like i mean as an obvious example i don't use dating apps because i have a fiance right but other people use dating apps like just like i don't really play with nfts but other

people do right but i play with d5 and and you know other stuff on ethereum so and we've seen ethereum grow large to the point where diverse communities are all in the same spot and those diverse communities butt heads like the nft and the d5 people have butt heads right like there's there was the whole like cancel there was like cancel month for a while and like the crypto the ethereum community butted heads about that and so like we're putting a lot of communities into the same like tight room but as more communities come in the room also gets bigger and we like it's good to have budding heads of communities in the seams in the same container rather than just having like the one bitcoin container saying the only way that you come into this container is that you be a bitcoin like you like ethereum has containers for

everyone and that puts them into the same room which is like what society is yeah yeah yeah and i mean it really is like a clash of cultures for sure i mean even within dfi you have clashing of cultures you have a lot of people in d5 who like these you know move fast and break things protocols like the frog nation and stuff like that which you know you're you're obviously going to be well aware of yeah multiple times yeah yeah yeah and then you have like the slow methodical approach which is like the makers of the world and the uni tops of the world right so there's budding heads but in the in community as well but that's just naturally kind of like what happens right and and i think i think it's good that it happens on like the digital sphere not the physical

sphere because yeah in the in real life like it's very different like i mean you know you can go to a conference and there can be people there that you disagree with completely online but you're still friendly to each other you can disagree in real life and things like that but i think the fact that the the hated arguments and the quote-unquote violence stays digital is actually a net positive because it means there's less you know there's way less of that physical aspect of it which is which is actually i i think uh an advantage even though it's it's really shitty and it's toxic it's still a positive over what it could have been like because traditionally you know if humans are fighting with each other that they were physically fighting with each other over their you know with different ideals now it's fighting with words

instead right totally and it's the on a slightly unrelated but different track of thought is like one of the same similar things i've thought about in that same like areas that uh the metaverse the digital world will reduce like human physical consumption like that we will like literally consume less physical things and actually perhaps output less carbon because they have things to do in the digital world like you just need one vr headset and then boom you have this infinite array of digital worlds to like do your basic human consumer like demands right i don't know if we have to go there but let's actually do this whole thing guys anthony and i do this every now and then uh we used to do it once a week but now we're doing it like once every couple months or so semi-regular uh bankless

daily grade livestream so we're so happy to have all you guys all you watchers if you guys don't know anthony says i know you're absolutely insane he does a daily youtube video on a daily newsletter i just posted his youtube video in the youtube comments it's called the daily way and it's where you get the daily updates that happen every 24 hours in ethereum because something is always happening in ethereum and anthony covers it every single day on his channel at the daily grade which i just posted so go give him a subscribe uh anthony what should we talk about next i mean geez like the i mean we spoke about the mergers obviously the biggest thing happening right now we spoke about like the energy usage and things like that i think one other thing that i've been noticing lately i don't i always kind of like get scared

about talking like this because we've spent we've said it so many times but like a d5 renaissance because of layer twos like specifically because of layer twos now i don't know if people have been paying attention lately but synthetics has the synthetics ecosystem on optimism is actually doing really well like it's actually growing like and i think synthetics was one of the protocols that suffered most from being on layer one due to the scalability issues especially with the snx staking where it would cost like 500 to kind of like claim rewards or something when gas fees were higher than what they are today and the rewards were worth way less than that for most people then they kind of like had a bridge solution and they're like you know screw it we're moving everything to layer two it's gonna set us back probably a year in

adoption but who cares we need to do this today and now other protocols building on top of them like lyra finance and polynomial uh finance as well which just built a product on top of lyra which uses synthetics it's all coming together like the original vision of synthetics that kane had and his team had is actually coming together finally because of that and it's not just not just in synthetics either it's also other protocols like ave who have launched v3 across a bunch of different networks and their token prices are actually reflecting this both snx and rv are up uh in the last week by about 50 and that's actually a pretty big yeah that's a pretty big move for deep fly tokens i know they're down a lot already but the thing is is that i feel like there's actually been a bit of a

momentum shift in defy um uh because of that right and the price will always kind of cause these sentiment shifts as well but i think it's actually justified for both synthetics and avec given the fact that they're actually growing again like ave being on other networks being on optimism arbitrary and things like that is awesome synthetics being able to scale is awesome and yeah man i'm just feeling i'm feeling a d5 renaissance right now that's for sure yeah and maker is also doing the whole cross train thing and they've they've gone even maker dao is on avalanche like i never thought i'd see the day where maker dao would be on on alternative layer one but even them are doing the whole crosstrain thing and so really it seems to be like uh all these defy apps are are spreading their roots into other chains and trying

to spin up their products it's basically avm chains because they're easy to deploy to right like avm chains are just like dead simple for existing teams that are on ethereum to deploy to and that's why you see like either v3 went live on layer twos but also the l1s that have abm trains they don't go live on solana because slan doesn't have that right or cosmos for example but uh i think it makes sense but also it's kind of like a business decision where it's like a defensive business decision where like if we don't do this we'll just be forked and someone else will take this market share but i don't expect the long term thing to be like eight evm chains being like active right i i don't i don't see how that becomes a thing because we don't have eight app stores like it's just too much for developers

it's too much overhead right and and users aren't going to be split between eight different networks you know i always think about that and think about the abstraction and how that can happen as well it's yeah it's just crazy man but but yeah sorry the they fight stuff has just caught my eye lately again that's for sure yeah and i i have thought about the same thought over and over and over again which is like the defy tokens are going to be like institution friendly tokens especially maker dow i've always thought about this about maker dallas maker dao is going to be super institution friendly there's so many metrics to reason about the fundamentals are so strong and like it's like the same the same trap i fall into over and over and over again we're

like dude like at some point the defy tokens are going to get like sucked up by the institutions and like am i ready to get hurt again anthony am i ready to do this that's what i'm saying 50th time i've said this so many times but i think before people were saying it and there wasn't actually fundamental traction to back it up there was just like oh you know these default tokens are down so much how much more can they go down they're going to have to bounce but i think this time there's actually fundamentals to back it up as i said synthetics is actually growing and growing really nicely ave is growing again because it's on different networks not just on ethereum l1 and some other kind of like um l once actually on the l2s now and the narrative is becoming much more positive

because their tokens are pricing up and i think as you said we probably have more institutions coming into the space than we traditionally did have um so i i don't think it's going to apply to every token there are a lot of tokens out there that are kind of trash and don't actually capture any value and no one knows and they're going to capture value and they don't have good memes behind them either like i actually view tokens as trading on memes and trading on attention at the end of the day and i i think that default tokens have kind of like taken a backseat to things like nfts for a while but i think nfts they're still big but i feel like i don't know i feel like the nfts might be done for a little bit here especially as eighth runs because no one wants to

power with their eighth for nfts when it's running like none of the big money's gonna be like i'm gonna go ape some nfts with my eighth and then you know i'm gonna be down massively on my on my eighth because of the fact that the a is just gonna just gonna move so and i i feel like d5 tends to follow eighth as well um not all of it like there's so many defy tokens now dude let's it's kind of like hard to know which ones to buy but i think that the ones that actually have traction the ones that are still around after so long synthetic is an old project now and same with ave those might be good things to be i don't hold any right now currently because i'm just all eighth because of the fact that like i believe the merged trade is gonna

be biblical uh but there are opportunities to be made for for people who maybe want to play short to medium term kind of like speculative stuff there but that's not my game at the end of the day as well huh there used to be a defy section on uh on coin gecko but i guess not uh the thing is like from what i've noticed a lot of the top defy tokens are the same top defy tokens that there always were like ave maker synthetics are like the big ones yearn is the most recent one to break into like the top defy tokens but it's still really the ogs so like if we take his make i was just gonna say maker is uh mkr everyone who buys that just gets burnt man like it's so bad where where is it on the uh on the top

charts 67. oh yeah that's not that high oh god yeah yeah i mean not the top 20 or top 30 or something and this is what i mean like things can have traction but the token doesn't necessarily have to reflect it for for many different reasons uh so yeah i mean i wouldn't be buying something and being like oh you know because synthetics and rbi went up this is going to go up maybe it does in a in a bull market where there's a relative trade going on but it's hard i think mkr is harder to time than the eth btc ratio uh oh yeah yeah it's very high i think yeah mki definitely uh is an asset that it doesn't get any love even though make is such a great project and any time it pumps it's like during the tail end of a

bull market and you don't want to be buying into that so okay so the the d5 summer got kicked off because of the invention and basically of yield farming like do you think that defy can bring itself back without some sort of just like fundamental catalyst like oh it's just like it's the defy trade i think the fundamental catalyst is the layer twos the scalability the ability to onboard more users than we traditionally have because like look man i mean you know the gas is already back to 50 grey it was 20 grey two weeks ago like layer twos are not a thing that uh are kind of like a pipe dream anymore they're not a thing that we need in the future they're a thing that we need now and we have bridges into them people are using them more and more there are native projects being

spun up on there the bridging experience is so good i love it i love bridging bridging's fun like it's so easy yeah yeah and then the amazing thing is that when you bridge into something like arbitrary optimism you go from like the relatively slow and expensive ethereum layer 1 instantly to this layer 2 that gives you the same experience as ethereum layer 1 gives you but at the fraction of the cost and at like basically instant transactions you know confirmation not not finalization obviously but confirmation my transactions are done by the time i move on to the next tab like if i go to the other tab like the other tab is ready for me yeah exactly so i think it's more and l twos have just continued growing even during kind of like the um

the down market not even just in tbl but in uh transactions and stuff like that uh per day and they haven't got tokens either right optimus and arbitrary don't have tokens yet uh there's no token incentives from them and they still have managed to attract a decent amount of activity so you know when they do tokens like i think that'll be a big catalyst too right for for everything especially if they do it right so i just think later twos in general are such an i mean they talked about a lot but i don't think people realize like how powerful they're going to be for adoption uh in in terms of like getting people to use ethereum again because a lot of people obviously overflowed to these ebm chains like bsc um the public on post train was a nice little buffer there as well for people

and it's still a good ecosystem but then you know the avax c chain phantom i think there was overflow but there was also a lot of people chasing the money too actually i don't know if i've said this on our live streams before but i said it on the refuel where i basically said i truly do believe that even if ethereum had low fees the l1 trade still would have worked because of the incentives that they used right the incentives are what attracted most of the capital to their ecosystems it wasn't the cheap fees if you see the amount of money that goes there's a lot of whales that actually went there the whales don't give a [ __ ] about the fees what the whales want to do is they want to farm and dump right and that's exactly what happened on a lot of these things but in

saying that obviously like expensive fees are pricing out a lot of users as well and a lot of users got value out of the cheaper cheaper chains but that's a commodity like cheap blog space block space is going to be a commodity it's not a moat like you know everyone could do cheap anyone can make block space block space is easy yeah exactly exactly but it's it's the one thing that i believe has product market fit encrypted long-term product market like if you're bullish on crypto you bet on block space because it doesn't matter what projects succeed they all use the same block space or you know in the same ecosystem like all the projects on ethereum are using the ethereum block space right even if they're on layer twos um and then you can bet on layer two block space uh and things like that so that that's my

thesis like a big thesis for me as well i was betting on block space okay let me let me run this trade idea by you because everyone wants exposure to layer twos like it's the hot new block space of the the digital age uh and so like on the air drops like what about buying the native tokens for layer twos on the news of the airdrop right we know the crypto industry runs on intention right so like yeah thank you for fixing that that was bugging me yeah i don't know why my camera is blurring out sorry yeah it's focusing on the background there you go uh yeah yeah so like on optimism right like the lyra token lyra or lira i think it's lyra ira lyra and then is there another native optimism token i

can't remember uh but then like the magic magic token yeah there's a bunch of them on on optimism right now i think yeah i don't know all of them but yeah yeah and then like magic i think is associated with arbitrarium uh and so like what about buying these tokens the tokens that are just branded to be of the particular layer twos to like speculate on the layer two drop right mm-hmm like that's a that's a i feel like that's a very very left-brained play that works out yeah yeah i mean maybe right they haven't well jesus my dog's just gone nuts because there's someone at the front door i think oh man no all good uh yeah my camera's sorry it's gonna be blur city but no i mean i think it it makes sense um sorry

about my dog by the way if you're gonna hear him um i think it makes sense uh but the the thing is like stuff like magic has already gone up a lot because their own ecosystem has done really well right outside of being on arbitrary or otherwise their ecosystem has done really well but there are proxy trades to be made of course i think and the funny thing is is that the tokens that get dropped as these l2's they're going to have massive market caps dude like it's actually going to be crazy because everyone's going to like everyone's going to like want to buy these tokens like from the get go especially like even if they don't get even if they get air dropped them because they're so hyped up they're like oh my god ladies you know they're gonna do the relative layer one tray they're

gonna be like if this layer one's worth a hundred billion why can't this layer two worth be worth that wasn't optimism valued in their most recent raise at like 1.5 billion dollars well i think it was 1.6 billion yeah yeah yeah yeah and was 1 billion zk sync was was one billion i believe stark was doing a six billion dollar apparently i know so you know what i'm saying like that puts optimism in arbitrary like 80th on the coin market cap at the the most recent races exactly so geez my dog jeez um yeah yeah so i think that people are just going to end up doing that in a really big way um and and the values are going to go like yeah they're going to skyrocket and i think it's

going to be kind of depending on how the token distributions are done it might be bad because there might only be like 10 of the tokens circulating and then like it's got like a 20 billion dollar full diluted market cap and everyone's like i'm gonna buy it and it's so bullish and then it just like keeps it's just down only from there which we've seen play out a lot of times right with a lot of different tokens granted we haven't seen layer two tokens yet so that's a little bit different uh and i mean we've seen we've seen in a limited fashion with maddox but yeah but but maddie but manic like manic obviously went up all in value but that's because it started out at a very low market cap like uh i think matic before it went up a lot was at like two

cents i'm just looking at its chart right now it's market cap would have been tiny at that point i think it's market cap when it was at like oh wait i think yeah jan 2021 its market cap was 165 million right there's no way in hell any of the layer 2 tokens are going to be worth that much from the gecko they're going to be worth so much more than that right so you you can't really compare that even though i consider matic to be an l2 token because of the polygon ecosystem um but there's medics as well and things like that like metas actually started out quite quite low i believe um i'm just looking okay so here here's my take for a future version of the world is that like arbor trump and optimism they dropped their tokens tokens coming i don't know like a four billion dollar

market cap seems rationable and reasonable and maybe a little bit low and lower i think yeah and uh and again the whole point about a layer two is that it's extremely easy to spin up a layer two versus how much how easy it is to spin up an entire layer one because in layer one you have to worry about token issuance distribution security there's a lot of just baggage that comes with layer one so like why deal with that just like make it layer two on ethereum and look arbitrary optimism just air dropped five bajillion dollars and so like clearly you should go do that like the new we were talking about this uh i was talking about this with ryan on uh our debrief episode post uh olaf carlson we we who we had the the poly chain ceo and we were talking about about his thesis

and he basically said like look at the name of poly chain like the poly chain thesis like it's gonna be many many many chains but you know who really likes many many many chains to exist vcs vcs love many many many chains to exist that is entirely in their interests but as soon as arbitrary and optimism like drop their tokens and prove like boom you can just like splash a five billion dollar network into this existence like the new like layer twos are about to be the the new layer ones and this is a thesis that we talked about like at least nine months ago uh but yeah i mean the the foundation for that thesis is all still there like it's going to be way easier to make a layer two than it is going to be a layer one and boom you can just

mint five billion dollars vcs love minting five billion dollars they're going to do this all over the place yeah i mean i've i've had the same thesis for a while as well um and we've already seen forks of optimism you know boba and metis right that have managed to gain uh people again a community because of their token and gain traction so yeah it's it's definitely much easier to spin up a layer too we can and and yeah as soon as the tokens start dropping in in a big way people are gonna go crazy with it they're gonna be like yeah free money everywhere right and you know the funny thing is that the the l1 trade has actually been quite profitable especially for vcs like quite probably extremely profitable i think the l2 trade is probably going to do that as well um and you know disclosure i mean

we're both kind of like investors in these lsu's and stuff like that so obviously we're talking about book here but i mean we invested in them because we because of their thesis yeah right yeah because of this thesis so and and and i i hope that they i don't have like i don't talk to the teams about their tokens or what they're going to do like i don't even know which ones are going to do tokens when they're going to do them right i just have the assumption that they're all going to do tokens like i have the assumption about every project but i hope that these teams don't destroy their token by like airdropping only two percent of it and then the rest of it is just like coming out over time and it just becomes like a down only thing from there yeah yeah yeah i hope it

doesn't but it's a rock and a hard place because everyone's just gonna hype it up regardless of what they do right regardless of how they construct these tokens people are going to bid this thing up to insane valuations and then you're going to have like all the growth from the next you know a few years brought forward right to that point in time and then you're going to have to price that in over time and that's happened with everything with eighth in 2017 eth got priced as if it had already achieved all of its all of its goals right and then 2018 here and everyone's like oh well proof of stake isn't actually coming the ico mania was like a mania it's over now um and we have all this supply that's coming onto the market because the ico treasury is and then he went down 94 in like 11 12

months so i think when you look at it like that you have to basically think and look at these valuations and be like okay has years of growth already been priced in at this point and what's the you know what what's it going to be the next few years and for a lot of tokens it's down only unfortunately okay so i know you're if if anyone's an eth maxie your name definitely shows up in the top five and so when the when the layer two tokens come out which are tokens uh later to roll up tokens which i will differentiate in this particular instance mata away from this group uh where like the the the general thesis on the layer two tokens is like you would evaluate them on their mev right like their ability to sequence transactions and that's going to be the fees for the

network and and so you take those fees and then you subtract the fees that it costs to make transactions on the ethereum l1 and that's your profit for the layer 2 token that's generally the thesis behind these things it's very very similar to the evaluation thesis where like how much yield can you get from eip1559 it's the same question for the layer 2 tokens is how much mev can you get on the layer 2s so you being the ethmaxy that you are do you see yourself trading away your layered two tokens eventually for eth without me talking about the specific valuation or numbers so that's a broad question do you see yourself rather owning either the layer two tokens i i have absolutely no idea dude it's so hard to you know because layer twos are

good for eighth obviously right the more layer two growth we have the more block space layer twos take up and they they're always going to be the largest bidders of block space because they don't care if they're growing you know it doesn't matter what the fees are they're going to pay them i i actually don't know it's really hard for me to to to know and and honestly i've thought about it but i've not come to a conclusion i i think that well i mean this is the funny thing like to be totally transparent like the you know given that we've been in the private rounds and things like that like and then we have vesting and stuff it's even harder because you know obviously being in a private round if i you know i got into the arbitrary earlier round and the one that they did the series a and

that was valued at uh at um a lot less than a billion um and then what happens if arbitrary goes to like 10 or 20 billion right like and then i investing on top of that and then you know during that vesting period maybe the token price comes down there's a million factors to consider here and i don't know what i would do in that scenario obviously i want to keep stacking eighth but i i like you know it depends on how the l2 tokens go because not all of them are going to be created equal not all the l2s are going to win there are going to be some that don't gain any market share right again little market share compared to their competitors uh so yeah i i don't have an answer to that i think i have to kind of separate it maybe and be like hey here's my l2

pile here's my eighth pile and let's just keep it separate but i do tend to just compare everything to eighth in the end right i can't it's hard to keep it separate you know you know what i think is missing except for the looks token which did this and still does this but it's a little bit uh unsustainable because the eth dividends coming from looks is coming out of token inflation basically but with layer twos wouldn't it be cool like how like i just explained mev yield you get the fees from the layer twos if we just treated that like a business and it just spit out eth dividends into the token holders how cool would that be i feel like that's not that big of an ask can we please have no it's not especially because 8th is going to be

paid in the fees anyway right and even in the background because it needs to be paid to layer one so yeah you could have a token that is the mev capture token but you get paid ether was like like look like what looks where he's doing um and it seems to have worked for them like even though the looks price i mean that's that's another thing that doesn't look like it'll express i mean it went it i mean it's actually not too bad right now but it did go nuts and then it came down a lot and now it's kind of going back up but i i think that that can work really well oh wow yeah well look at that yeah yeah yeah i i mean i mean it's kind of hard to tell because like we're in kind of like a bullish momentum right now and people

are going crazy over things but uh yeah i i do think that there is an argument to be made that you could pay out eight instead of the native token awards and people would want eight instead to be honest i would probably want ether as a reward token other than something else so yeah i i get i get that thesis i i cannot i can gel with that all right anything anything else we'll talk about before we wrap it up no no i think that's it because i gotta go now i have another meeting soon i need to get through but yeah this has been it's been fun i'm glad that we got to do this again let me let me get your do i still have it yes i do all right guys i just linked anthony's daily great youtube channel in the in the youtube chat once again so

you can go follow him there he's got some great takes covers the news uh goes on 30 minute rants every single day uh he's the first voice i listen to when i wake up in the morning uh anthony thanks so much for coming on and live streaming with me brother awesome yeah no thanks thanks for having me again man and we'll do this again hopefully not in two months oh i forgot and listeners i have a awesome video for you to listen to here it goes oh wait uh where did i put it here it is all right