Attracting users to Cosmos with better UX with Dogemos

Transcript

we are live I'm set 3.0 and today I'm speaking with Josh Lee AKA dogemos co-founder of Kepler and ethereum and we're going to be talking a theory of osmosis and we're going to be talking about a bunch of stuff today we're going to be uh discussing you know user experience how do we get more people to come into Cosmos also kind of getting a state of the cosmos ecosystem right now like where we're at and like what's what are people building and I'm also dying to find out why he thinks GoGo Diego is the most underrated YouTuber in the cosmos before I get started make sure to subscribe hit the like button and the notification Bell to get notified when I do live streams every week

my guest dogemos is coming up next right here on the interrupt [Music] yeah so tell me about that time you co-founded ethereum all right a long time ago there's like nine different co-founders that I don't even know about ethereum sometimes my my brain just like crosses wires and I like I don't like I don't even understand why but yeah anyway how you doing

well how about you good good um happy to be uh back home after like what seems like two months of just non-stop traveling um yeah but uh yeah it's been it's been a cool couple of last weeks you know we've been uh I mean like obviously there was like Cosmos and then went to Lisbon for a staking Summit and then like went to Dubai to try to raise funds and um and uh yeah things are like accelerating and moving pretty quickly so but at the same time you know the the ecosystem seems to be like right like the whole industry seems to be taking a [ __ ] on itself so uh you know we'll see how things play over the next couple of months actually just just before you

know getting started here I was watching this FTX uh send backman free thing on like the whatever this Wall Street Journal conference they had and oh yeah I saw that oh man that guy yeah uh it's it's I don't know it's it's almost like it's it's so cringy just how like just the media is still like still capturing this person you know and like I don't know oh and that's the crazy part is like I I saw that as well where like you know it's like oh you know he was joking it's like oh obviously I've had a very rough month and everyone laughs about it right and it's like um you know and it's like you know Sam Pacman freed is one thing but also makes you just wonder it's like how many of

these like very unethical you know scammers essentially existed in like the traditional Finance world that basically never got discovered because of how they you know were so close with the traditional media because I feel like Sam is like the first case we see a crypto person that's like so close to mainstream media yeah there you kind of get two stories right you get the Twitter version of like a raw unfiltered like on-chain versions of things that are going on and then you get to see like how drastically different like information media coverage is but like in a lot of the older Financial world you only get to see this like mainstream media coverage of all this you know things that blew up so yeah yeah it makes you kind of think like oh my God how much things have happened that I like you know people aren't even aware

about so yeah yeah yeah it kind of makes you kind of makes you think for a while about like the yeah the power structures and uh how how uh I mean really like what will end up happening to him I think will be very dependent on um the desires of of certain power structures and and uh and also like the influence that he might have or I mean certainly he doesn't have as much influence anymore because he doesn't have any money uh but uh some some corpses and some closets that uh

you know that that are keeping him safe um yeah so tell me about this Go-Go Diego guy because uh I I I didn't know about him and then you mentioned his YouTube channel he said he was pretty underrated and I know yeah um yeah I saw this comment here it just reminded me of you know I I mean I just ran into him on Twitter and I just so I actually before I got into crypto wall I was in college I majored in video production so like I really enjoyed like shooting videos and stuff um oh yeah things like that and you know I know how much work goes into just making some of these videos and things like that and I saw his stuff and I was like holy [ __ ] like he's just putting a ton of effort into like you know making this work and

trying to explain things and I'm like it's also hilarious right so it's like uh I don't know I feel like Cosmos is all about like the Underdog Story where like you kind of start from this like random Community dude and then you just build your way up into like providing people value and building products for people where you kind of end up having more influence or having more say in you know the direction of the the community or the product and things like that and because you know for me I was I started off as just like random dude in the community and now I'm just like building well the wallet and you know all the amms and it's like I I don't know I just saw Diego and I was like oh my God this guy just has that like Vibe where like like it's gonna get somewhere and I

can't believe how underrated like I don't know like most cause those people don't know nothing so um I just hope he gets the coverage well I I just subscribe to his channel so I guess we'll see uh we'll watch I'll watch some of it and let you know what I think of it but um yeah thanks for joining the live stream um yeah so a couple things here I mean like this like I was saying before this is probably like the least prep I've ever done for an interview because yeah I just I feel like we could just have a conversation here and there's like a bunch of things that we can touch on and um but yeah maybe off the top like what is your sense of where the ecosystem is right now like if you kind

of take a snapshot of the cosmos interchange ecosystem how how what's like your sentiment around like um you know uh maybe like people's enthusiasm about where the space is heading I mean we just kind of came out of a very complicated atom 2.0 governance proposal that is like still very much ongoing um there is this like FDX thing that is like dumping on the entire ecosystem that just Cosmos but like the whole industry uh you know like six months ago seven months ago we had like Luna um it was like all this really kind of not so positive stuff that's either

happening you know within Cosmos sort of adjacent to Cosmos or as a you know broader industry phenomena uh bullish or bearish um yeah I would say that like 2022 obviously I don't know every year I I say it's like oh this has been the craziest cause we'll see here so far um I think this year worse than the others uh in the context of this entire like industry as well but um yeah I mean I I'm obviously very bullish on like The Interchange and these like app change thesis uh that being said I think Cosmos has sort of existed traditionally in a very

you know homogeneous culture uh very similar minded people who tend to be not the mainstream uh whereas I think this idea of like blockchain interoperability and app chains and a lot of the kind of things that caused most of this early days pushed for is actually kind of a mainstream idea now right I think this is the first thing that's happened you know in the [ __ ] if since 2017 which is when I first got into Cosmos and you know I have to say it's like I'm in in some ways I'm like really excited that this idea has caught up to the rest of crypto that being said it's like I don't know there's always that like hipster

thing where like hey it's like you know if everyone knows about the cool thing then like is it cool anymore so I mean there's that like a little bit of you know the Hipster in me where I'm like oh man like the good old days are only the people that knew that like IBC was cool you know and you could kind of talk hours with them where I was like today I said completely different landscape than you actually have a heterogeneous you know community of stakeholders and who think different things which is you know a great Direction but it's definitely a different vibe than where things were about you know a year or two ago I would say you're muted by the way

yeah let's go back to [Music] entertain conversations right like summer-ish 2019 um the ecosystem was super small it was basically like the tendermint team and all the teams that had kind of spun out of that and like a few other random people that had latched on to this idea and like a couple of podcasters um but you know it was it was uh it was a very small ecosystem that had kind of grown organically from you know this this Core group of people coming from Berkeley uh from like the Berkeley blockchain Berkeley crew and then there's like the Berlin crew

and then you know some folks in Canada uh in Toronto now you know now there's there's like other people that are just people that just kind of show up and start using the tech and there's tons of teams that have done that um and there's also they're the like the Luna Terra Luna ecosystem of builders that has started to you know come into the ecosystem and start building um I mean I guess they were already building in the interchain but now uh now they're building products that are Say closer to products that we typically think of more as you know as like hot you know pure kind of Cosmos things um what do you think the effects of that is in terms of the culture and

where like how how is the culture shifting in your view um to say it in a good way I would say it's become more pragmatic to say it in a bad way I would say in some ways I feel like cause was sort of I I would say The Interchange before it was just like such a group of like-minded people that everyone sort of had this Soul whereas like today it just feels like just any other Tech and kind of this like commoditized it's it's good um it's good technology but like I want to see the soul and like that like grit uh back yeah and kind of miss that you know

yeah yeah I mean it is I think part of growing up yeah yeah you know if if this if this opens First Technology is meant for for anyone to use and to build on and like to bring their own ideas and experiences and and um and and then also that brings users you know credible neutrality also has uh um has this property that means that anybody can use it and uh that means that you know you're you need to detach I think I think you know one needs to detach themselves from the tech and you were talking earlier about how you or before we were

talking here on the show you said that um you felt that the terror collapsed um as a result of that there are some well-meaning people that have come in to you know or are still building in the ecosystem and there are some like less well-meaning people and uh and like you look back at the days where it's like a bunch of friends that um you know were like-minded well you can still have that it's just like easy to detach yourself from the technology you know just like you're building things like products that are uh you know with with like-minded people you're using like a piece of technology that doesn't mean that you know one needs to associate or even endorse what like other people are doing with this technology the technology is

like neutral absolutely and you know it's like with the whole Luna thing I mean in late 2021 and you know most of early this year uh as one of the co-founders of Kepler I got a lot of [ __ ] for like you know why does Kepler not support Tara natively and you know some of that was like obviously some like business decisions and Technical but I would say you know some of that was just like I just felt like I didn't like Tara as a project very much and um and for me it's always just been like hey I build stuff because I enjoy and I believe uh this thesis and for me Tara was not something I could get behind uh

very much and I tried you know as much as I can I obviously couldn't just one person so um yeah that being said you know it's like do I regret that decision it's like absolutely not uh you know if Tara was that much more accessible then you know maybe there could have been way more money lost then what we thought and you know just to be you know just to be clear I'm based in Korea and I have friends and you know people that I know around me who worked at tfl you know formerly and I know what that like work environment was like in that you know there it wasn't just like the public you know how publicly Tara was being shown is a lot of the behind the scenes that I was aware of

yeah in some ways I just like I regret that I couldn't speak out just because I felt like it's like hey you know Tara is part of this Cosmos community and you know after it's collapsed I actually you know felt more compelled to just you know say kind of the unpopular opinions and and that's why I think I actually really enjoy kind of Sonny's idea of meshes right where you can have like The Interchange ecosystem but you can still have different meshes and not just in the culture but in a lot of the products uh and you know in terms of how security is kind of aligned with like-minded projects that work well each other uh I think

people and that and I think well the big realization was the atom one and like Adam 2.0 discussion was extremely heated but to be honest as someone who's been around in Cosmos like drama is obviously uh very familiar territory uh that being said you know it's like it's like all of us sort of knew that like Cosmos wasn't you know a very quiet peaceful community ever and you sort of got used to it but you know I felt like the discussion just felt really different this time around uh compared to kind of the previous dramas where people were still trying to find like constructive outcomes so I don't know what has changed uh it's just that's what you know Growing Pains is

like you get a bigger community and you get a lot of vocal people here and there um but I don't know I'm here to do exactly what I did you know one year ago two year ago two years ago and that's just build better products that users could use in the context of Cosmos and The Interchange so yeah for me nothing has changed yeah I mean I think that's been the overwhelming sentiment uh you know a um like I said I was just in Dubai and I was talking to folks there and they were like oh I like Tara or FTX is uh is really uh you know creating bad vibes for the for the ecosystem and you know this is the

death of crypto and I said like honestly you know most of the people that you know I interact with were basically just like building and then like they were like oh they're like oh oh yeah this FDX thing all right and then it just like went back to building and well and then you know there's this whole host of people who are basically you know people there were projects who were simping these potentially you know what turned out to be bad actors back then and then completely flipped 180 once that collapsed right and I remember yeah I I remember that yeah speaking of culture and uh people people want wanted me to ask you this what do you think is this the cultural

significance of bad kids in the office ecosystem so here's why I love bad kids so much uh it basically has all the for me I don't know I don't know if I've never met I've never talked to the founder uh personally um never met him I didn't get any money or no I I don't think it's I don't think he's a non it's like Portland on Discord okay yeah and I heard that he's based in New York so he thought like I and I heard people that have met him uh I just have never done it before but you know like I said I feel like the culture of causal says hey we're small but we're very like strongly opinionated and you know

there's this Hustler culture you just kind of like start from the bottom and you make your way up and I feel like bad kids was first of all original I was just hunting for um stargaze nfts to Mint on the weekend and I think there were like eight or ten different ones and I just knew that like when I saw it I was like okay this is a drawing side first of all I haven't seen anywhere else uh in other ecosystems so bonus points for that secondly I went to the website and um it was like hey what's its utility and then like on the website it says I have no clue which is like having bad kids and I was like I love that like I love that people are honest and I think

you know it's like sure if you want to try find utilities friends but for me you know it's like I like it because I like it right there's so many things in the world that has value where like hey what's like the fundamental utility of this painting it's like I don't know I think it looks beautiful as well and like just being honest about it I love that part uh you can tell the Creator put a lot of effort into creating different traits um as well as you know being able to contain a lot of different demographics that being said you don't want it to be so fragmented within a pfp collection that like uh you know everything else just looks so different right uh there you know even in like nfts you have this

like gradient of fungibility and I think the reason why pfps tend to be the like kind of extremely financialized nfts it's because it's like you sure have this like gradient of fungibility amongst the collection and I felt like you know for you to be able to build a community you need to be able to have your own You Know Rarity or like characteristics or traits but at the same time you sort of fit in this large gradient of hey you're one of this large bad kid and I felt like bad kids sort of had a good balance between the two um and then there's and then the other kind of thing that I saw was extremely cool was there is this like hidden trade

I don't think anyone's been used you know make making use of it but like there's brain strength and Badness which is like the trait of these nfts now I think one of the coolest things about nfts is you can sort of create derivative Works based off of you know the nfts itself so like hey what if someone created a game based off of these Badness traits or the brains or the strengths of these kids right and um be able to you know it's like I think that shifts what people would want like assuming this game ships like maybe people wanted I don't know like brown-haired bad kids more before this came live but after this goes live then um you know people want these hidden traits that like no one really cared

about before and um just the fact that there's like a lot of room to grow into without making any promises and just you know there's this culture of like Hey we're brutally honest here we don't really care what you think we just like these things and I'm not gonna promise you we're gonna build any games you're not going to partner with Nike or anything it's just a very organic and it just looks nice I like it yeah I like it too I mean I've got a couple um I mean I'm not like super super into it you know I like I I kind of forgot that I had them for a while I forgive you yeah and then when everybody started like a couple of months ago I guess like everybody

started using them as their profile picture I was like oh you know I'll I'll play this game too and then and then I started playing with stable as diffusion and then that was it yeah um yeah so I I want to talk about let's talk about Kepler a little bit um you guys are just crushing it I think in terms of you know what I really love about Kepler is the mobile experience I I think like to be honest I think the I think the the the desktop extension you know like could need to could use some refining and yeah a lot of that has to do with just how um I don't know like when you have

different accounts and like and then you also have like the different uh networks and everything but I think the mobile version like really crushes it and one of the things that I just [ __ ] love about the mobile version is it works with Ledger like yeah over Bluetooth and you know I I once like tweeted I was on a plane and I was like you know compounding my staking rewards with my ledger like I took a picture of it like it is like Kepler on the on the on the phone and like Ledger retweeted it and uh you know it got like hundreds of tweet of retweets and because no other wallet does this I mean not that I know of like I mean like I

don't I don't know of any ethereum wallet that really supports Ledger really well over Bluetooth um and then the other cool thing about it and you know this ties into another topic that I want to talk about which is foreign know how to describe it but it's well let's put it like this so you know in Kepler there's there's there is like some curated applications I would say you know yeah uh that you guys link to and that enable users to utilize Kepler applications or Cosmos applications on their phone um in each world it's a bit different like wallet connect is broadly kind of adopted across all the applications

people use whatever wallet they want I think this is really where we should be heading and you know this kind of you know come with your own wallet using the application World um but uh it feels very feels very like AOL like you know yeah you know you come into this this this interface right this kind of browser and you're presented with a bunch of applications that are curated or vetted by the app um and it got me thinking is crypto is crypto kind of wallet first or is it blockchain first and what by that I mean

what is the what is the canonical thing that people are interacting with are they interacting with a wallet and or are they interacting with a with a blockchain and I guess this would become more like this question because right now like wallets are very much kind of tied to one blockchain but as interoperability becomes better and you know people are less aware of whatever underlying settlement layer they're using it feels like the wallet is kind of the point of entry um and then the question becomes like how do you differentiate from other wallets

how do you make money um you know do these things just become commoditized like browsers uh and then there's like the whole question of business and all so that's kind of a long-winded way to ask you like how do you how do you see like the future of the wallet business and uh and uh yeah yeah um I think the short answer is you know let me see I don't we know but uh the longer more interesting answer is I think we'll see a lot of different kinds of wallets um I think you know I I so just as a context I'm personally not a developer I you know happened to make a wallet because I just enjoyed making products

that was I I just I wanted to create a like work on a blockchain product that felt as close to the user as possible and um you know the wallet is like the closest you can get to a user right and um yeah and then you know but traditionally the wallet experience sucks because everything in crypto is built from the blockchain and down right so you have people who are building like the consensus and and all the you know consensus algorithm that consensus software the state machine and then the smart contracts and then the libraries and then you have the wallet so it's like at the end of this crazy

funnel and every step of the way you have had decisions made for you by someone else who isn't creating a wallet and I think that's fundamentally why the crypto experience sucks right and you know you see a lot of web 2 people who are basically always saying it's like oh the crypto like wallet experience is terrible like I can't believe crypto is like a three billion dollar uh like trillion dollar industry that still hasn't fixed this and you know as soon as they try to make a wallet they realize it's like oh holy [ __ ] there's like so much Legacy standards that you can't just like get rid of in a day because first of all you can't just like call the CEO blockchain and be like hey can we get rid of like the mnemonic seed

like you can't and you also have applications who are like kind of you know autonomously doing different things and adopting different standards right so I think first of all I think that's one kind of context to get that gets missed out uh very frequently um and then I think I I think that has a lot to do with standards and you know I always go back to like late 2000s I was a web developer I did a lot of PHP my you know MySQL websites and also did front end you know and like back then you had to build websites that work for ie6 ie7 and Firefox and like whatever other browser your customer wanted yeah wanted you to be compatible with and because largely there was very little

compatibility between browsers and uh and that over time you know evolved through better standards and now you know you can go on any website and it works on mobile and it works on desktop and like as a developer the risk that you know your CSS code and HTML code is not going to display the same and every browser is fairly low um uh what what do you think is the the importance of like creating standards in the industry because I think the web very quickly um after you know like even in the 90s I think like the w3c was already creating

standards we don't really have such an organization in crypto that uh addresses the entire industry like sure there's standards being built within the cosmic ecosystem and the centers being built within ethereum and maybe within Solana and whatever but like there's not cross ecosystem standards that I'm aware of that are really being led by um you know powerful or strong ecosystem players mm-hmm um I think there has been very traditionally this desire of you know the core developers decide on the standard and then the wallet adopted I think we're you know especially in the

context of like application specific chains um you know like fundamentally Kepler can't keep up with custom code of a thousand different blockchains like that's just not possible and that's why I subscribe to this more of this like mesh model where you know um I think it's more of a bottom-up approach where you know it's like hey do most of our users think this is an important feature that they would need and sometimes that you know because of the realistic like resources of mutations and things like that you just have to say it's like oh we can't support this like very custom thing that you guys have built in we choose not to uh you know for various reasons that

being said you know assuming a very efficient market you're going to see other competitors pop up and maybe you see that kind of what seemed to be a non-conventional bespoke not relevant idea take off and you know that wallet will also take off so I think we're gonna see kind of this like interface like ecosystem was within the ecosystem where you know like in ethereum you just have one wallet that can handle all of the applications I I just don't think that's possible in the world of an application specific interchange moving forward uh so one of the easiest ways to solve that is I think first of all the extension or or the signer basically

I think people get this like misnomer of like the wallet as like the extension sort of the mobile wallet and there's this like web component to it and all of it is sort of mixed up but I'm talking specifically about the extension and I take the extension will have to remain extremely simple a lot of these applications that are uh you know application logic like sending staking voting viewing nft selling all of that I think should be abstracted away like the future like the extension is where the mode of users are today that's not going to be the case like you know many years down the road and I think that's you know we we will see what you know like browsers were kind of the hot

things back in the day but today it's like you know like you mentioned like you can sort of access any browsers with you know through you know hey it's like if if a browser doesn't support YouTube today like that's you know their own death sentence right but you want this to happen sort of organically not like a top-down system and I I would say that like wallets sort of have this decision maker seed in you know deciding what standard works and doesn't and I would say menu Wallet not just like us or just one specific one I'll push back on that uh there is one example of a browser stopping uh support of a very used uh uh thing that people a lot of people were using and that is

Flash and so Safari stops supporting flash on mobile and um and everybody was doing video with flashback and and then that just pushed the industry towards uh Open Standards which which I mean ended up being like I think great I mean I'm great for the equation I remember when people gave Apple so much [ __ ] because they didn't support Flash in there like yeah man 3GS right like yeah yeah yeah um um I mean I I I started building websites with flash you know in the like um late 90s as a teenager you know and so to me like that was a huge blow to you know this this thing that

was an entire industry like building flash websites like I mean like the kids today don't know if I you know but you know people who are maybe like you know like just kind of in their early 20s probably like happens directly flash a whole lot uh but yeah it was a huge part of the web for a while um yeah I mean I'm still trying to like also wrap my head I think around I mean constantly you know this is constantly evolving but yeah I think I think the signer is is like a core component right and like that needs to be somewhat interoperable with anything and you know to some extents like you know Ledger has kind of figured that out right like uh they they figured out a way to just have this very abstracted

um signing mechanism that like supports many different curves and you know there is some amount of app you know app building that you need to do there but it's quite lightweight and you you can have it be also like on the side like the you can build have um uh sdks for teams to build their own Integrations and such but uh but yeah the business model there is well what is the business model over the long term you know if you're selling Hardware that's one thing if you're um you know if you're a piece of software it's something else I think there I think one interesting uh thing that I think we'll you know where where there's a business and where there's really a business to be you know kind of uh explored is the is

the MPC model and the threshold signature model and you know being a service provider that provides a trusted um sort of counterparty threshold and then that sets up your whole threshold signature setup so that you can have a backup and recovery and this kind of thing I'm a big fan of xingo and I think like they're probably one of the best quality experiences Unfortunately they don't support Cosmos yet and they're like you know like they're they're not focused on that ecosystem so much but in terms of the ux around you know creating a wallet um and having a you know high security uh self-custody solution like you know I think you could build a business around that I'm I'm curious if

you know on that side you know the the 12 24 word uh mnemonic um what's the you know for Kepler like how are you guys thinking about making it easier for people to onboard and um get away from this mnemonic um paradigm yeah so um this is actually a very the very thing that I sort of have I've been thinking about for the past like six months or so and um you know not a lot of people think that like Kepler is basically like ran by the osmosis team but like you know Kepler actually predates the launch of osmosis and we sort of have you know a team that like exclusively works on

Kepler and you know I I happen to be working on both projects but it's like there is kind of this like level of Independence and autonomy that being said like moving forward you know the way we see the future of like crypto ux going I think you basically can't separate out the blockchain development from the actual like user software development and then what I mean by that is like you know like vitalik and all these ethereal people are starting to talk about account abstractions uh on ethereum uh that being said like what's the biggest hurdle to getting sorry can you just uh uh remind us what is account abstraction yeah so it's like you know on ethereum

you sort of have this like very hard line between hey do you have an externally owned account or a contract account so you know it's like a you know mnemonic based Pub you know private keybase like public Key address or you have something like uh Argent where you have a smart contract wallet right and uh those two feel very exclusive to each other and there's kind of a very hard boundaries of what one can do what the other can't and I think from what I understand you're trying to kind of merge some of those the good things between those two things that being said when you're building on this like General platform uh you know it's like Arjun pushed the boundaries at the time when it launch I

remember being mind blown because you know the ux was so good right you could set up a lot of these things but they could only do it within the confines of a smart contract and I think the worst part about Argent was not the ux was not the product it was just fundamentally that it costs so much money to send money or do anything through origin because you're doing a smart contract call and uh you know so that's the bad side of things now could origin that that and uh that and losing all your pope nfts because you sent them to an urgent address and they're not supportive yeah you couldn't claim it yeah exactly yeah I remember that as well I think actually you know I think I got my unit

swap one but I I think I lost a lot of other ones yeah I mean I think technically there is a way to there is a way to do it but it just costs a ton of gas and it's just like yeah so yeah that being said like what is the right way of fixing this is like why can't Argent just be part of the blockchain core Dev and help Define what an account is for that blockchain but like like I mentioned earlier there's so many Legacy and standards so um that's why I think you know like I think app chains are so interesting because like hey we feel like one of the things that I I talked with Dave on osmosis a lot was like how how can we do account abstractions on Cosmos or specifically osmosis and you know it's

like hey as long as there is kind of this consensus between a wallet and the blockchain itself you can actually do like anything goes on like what an account is right so uh what we thought it was like we already have Taurus uh that like you can create you know crypto wallets just by logging into your Google account and I think yeah us like using that like massive props to the web3 off now uh the Taurus teams were bringing that to crypto is like you know anytime I try to help create a wallet for someone new like all of them just use that feature right that being said is that the most you know is that the right way to store crypto I would say most ogs say that's not the

case you should probably have it in a ledger now there's I mean you lose you lose access to your to your email address you also lose access to your uh to your funds and yeah I you know I've I've helped onboard people and um you know certainly like have led people down this path of of tourists because like what's the chances you're going to lose access to your your Gmail account like how often does that happen you know if you're just and you're sort of kind of inheriting the security features of that Google has built around you know you know making sure that some guy that's trying to log it log in from like South Africa when you've only logged in from Korea like

you know that's why there's that like hey you know what was your first car or like is it you from your phone like so you're sort of inheriting that but why can't you have both of Both Worlds right like why can't you start your crypto Journey with your Gmail account or your Twitter account uh let's say and then as you start spending you know more money storing more uh things you sort of are able to attach more keys to this account so it's no longer that like your account is an address basically a public key of your private key that you generated with Gmail is sort of like with this key you're creating I don't know dogemos on this blockchain right and you start you

know with maybe one of one key of Justice tourist account and but you can sort of like later add your extension signer yeah you can sort of attach your mobile key you can attach a ledger and then you can programmatically set like hey for things that will cost less than ten dollars like don't even bother asking me if I want to approve or you know for things that are over a thousand dollars maybe I should you know approve it for my phone um for things more than ten thousand dollars then yeah I should probably you know get my ledger out anything but kind of removing this idea that like account is always tied to a private key or a mnemonic uh and basically just like putting the center of an account as like

you as you your identity like your pseudonymous identity on a blockchain and then your keys you sort of have multiple keys that you can control different parts of your account and you know assuming you know like we when when there's going to be a name service later like when you log in with you know when you create your first crypto account it would just be like hey sign in with Twitter and you basically get a name service you also get a private key and you're ready to go and you can also maybe just set like you know 10 different people on Twitter that you sort of trust as your recovery key without even their permission because you already you know follow them on Twitter or whatever so it's like yeah does yeah you using some some existing social

graph I think like certainly is is desirable um you know often I think the issue there that you run into is that the social graph you you using using Twitter implies that like Twitter has some amount of uh control or at least cance can censor you unintentionally by deleting your account or you know suspending your account that certainly happened to me where I've had accounts suspended um and sometimes it just happens out of nowhere and you know the way that look I was just talking to Sam from Jean laju coin the other day and you know he was telling me about how

um I think he's in here actually by the way uh yeah he was telling me that like their Channel with like a hundred thousand followers uh on YouTube was uh was suspended because well he suspects during the live stream like they were [ __ ] on xrp or something like that someone reported it and then and then a bunch of people reported it once and and then their account was suspended and there's like very little recourse you know thankfully they were able to recover but this sort of thing happens all the time like where you get a you know four or five people reporting uh for whatever reason and then all of a sudden your account suspended or even worse deleted and then you're like you know have don't have

access anymore so it's easier to Target people and I think like the you know I think being able to from the from the get-go or very early being able to attach different um different accounts or different uh signers right um is is probably desirable and when one of those signers could be your phone like I think it would be pretty trivial for Apple uh to and another device manufacturers to start supporting you know these curves and having those signers like really just built into like those trusted execution environments that we all use to log in and do a bunch of [ __ ]

um I mean that to me feels like you know kind of the future and then if they already have like all the recovery and everything kind of like built into the system I mean I think the issue there is that it's so abstracted and also closed source that you have little visibility into you know what access or what backdoors they might have um I think that's the real issue yeah it's uh it's a hard problem man it's really but but that's the thing is I I think you know on ethereum because you need to find Social consensus amongst you know hundreds of different apps hundreds of different wallets like it's just so hard to push

uh like a fundamentally different change whereas you know if you have an app chain that has an app specific wallet uh you could actually just do a lot of like crazy [ __ ] like at the chain level like where you know 20 wallets well I mean that's the thing is I think that's why but assuming there's kind of this like very close-knit community of people who only use that and maybe the standard is something that other people can adopt but like I have this idea that like you should have blocked launching a revolutionary new feature just because someone else felt like they didn't want to use it like you push things stick forward and you allow anyone else to use it like you know as a wish but you know

I feel like the way you kind of move the needle is like you ship something people start using you gain traction and anyone everyone else is like can I also do that and you're like absolutely all you have to do is just like I don't know use this modified auth module of the cosmos SDK um rather than saying you know it's like the the way it's been done previously it's like these wallet developers go to the core developers let's say you know possible SDK it's like hey we would like to change the auth module and like can we please do this and then you know and then you have this entire RFP process like you know like you have this entire process of like examining the specifications like how does this break you know some other per like bespoke

blockchains implementation of the auth module and things like that um and then you know and then you have someone implemented and then you get a bunch of chains to upgrade and then once enough chains have upgraded you sort of push this to the wallet level uh I'm basically just saying I think the best part about Cosmos is you get to throw this entire process out the window and just be like hey we have we feel like we have a new off module that's just like way better fundamentally from like the crypto experience because a lot of ux issues in crypto are things that like are derived from the blockchain itself not from the you know client-side software to be honest and yeah if you're able to sort of just like get this adopted and have a wallet that supports it uh that also has a

decent amount of users um and then you know you allow anyone else to also take that you know and use it for their wallet that's kind of how you make breakthrough changes in ux rather than you know waiting for this like entire EIP process because that's the entire point of like heterogeneous blockchains right like we don't have a standard and that's why we're so messy but um we also get to move a lot faster but I mean like look I I always like to bring it back to like this web analogy like like websites are heterogeneous uh they leverage the same technology there are standards that allow us to interface

with them um I guess I guess where it gets messy is when websites have to talk to each other and then you need like apis essentially and then there's a whole industry of services that allow different apis to talk to each other and so you're talking about things like zapier and um make.com and like all this kind of no code stuff is this where is is is this where we're gonna head also with crypto where you know things are heterogeneous however standardized for common

interfaces but we're gonna need some kind of interoperability layer that um Bridges the gap between the different app chains and the calls like basically you know blockchain calls that they support um does that overlap perfectly or or am I missing something I would say in like you know considering that like crypto is still in its infancy um I think there's a good chance that one standard once something's like a new feature sort of ends up a standard by beating all the competition uh so

there's room for that obviously if there happens to be valid reasons to use you know pros and cons of each and there's a decent amount of traction on both then you're going to end up with you know middleware that helps you bridge the gaps between the two um but yeah I do fundamentally think that like the crypto ecosystem is gonna look more fragmented before it's standardized like way more moving into the future and I think that's actually a very good thing where you you know like I I'm personally just really interested in building like these distributed products even if that means

like sometimes you sort of have to leave you know like you spend less time convincing people and you just kind of like showing you an example of hey this is what things could be like um and then you know once they're convinced after they're using it I'm happy to kind of like have that conversation uh but you know I just feel like trying to create Mass adoption through trying to convince everyone to use your standard is like the worst way of getting Mass adoption you just create something that people will use a lot of people start using it and then because you know it's been proven in the market everyone else sort of pops out as well and in that process maybe some Chains Get You Know preferential

treatment over the others but if you know that's also a good thing right where you leave gaps in the market for new competitors to rise and it doesn't mean that you're always going to be right and uh you know that like iPhone example when that came out people are like oh because this doesn't support flash this will you know like iPhone will never take off because Flash was such a major part of the web back then but it turns out that like you know even though they like um you know they create they started off as this like very minority small you know opinion at the time they fundamentally changed how like the mobile web experience feels like today and uh you watched the whole website there's no backflash on the right on the

web man it was everything yeah and you know tell me about it where like you know I use Korean websites where it's like littered with active x's and like flash and you know if you don't use Internet Explorer 8 on your windows 11 machine then you can't get work done so like I'm still stuck in this Legacy world but fundamentally if people demand it they will you know even governments will change maybe just not as quickly as you know we would like them to uh but I think it's the same with wallets it's going to be the same with libraries blockchain Technologies consensus and uh you know it's just gonna be a very competitive market and I think it's that you want more competition and you get more competition by initially

fragmenting off into highly pieces driven products that are more specific rather than trying to fit trying to aim for like the you know least common denominator like that just feels like the most important product ever yeah I mean like web standards man they really did Propel like I think a lot of usage of the web I mean I don't know I I I've been thinking a lot about this lately and it's like trying to map how um basically trying to like look in in 2007 like 15 years ago we hit flash we had

um we had like most websites were not using https you know remember 2007 like most websites did not use https maybe you did for uh when you went to a payment portal or something like that but um but it was it wasn't standard um there were very few web standards so we still had like a bunch of browsers that didn't work properly or like didn't follow-up standards and what happened well like Microsoft decided okay we're going to adopt web standards uh and we're going to adopt the standards like Firefox and well basically Firefox was really um um adhering to at the time which was the

web 3 standards um Google through its through just sheer power decided hey when you don't have an https website we're going to throw up a big red flag and that forced the entire industry to move to https and an apple um decided that like flash was not as a as a closed Source proprietary technology was not the technology that we should be using to to do video um and then beyond that there's like tons of other user experience issues that were solved I think through some form of standardization there's still proprietary stuff like you know when you when you like copy

something on your phone and your iPhone and like you paste it on your computer that's not using Open Standards that's using proprietary technology and it would be great if all these things were open standardized you know you can't do that with like a Mac and an Android device without using some piece of software um but like Open Standards did a lot I think and and that time frame like we doubled the amount of people on the internet like 30 30 of the world was on the internet in 2007 I know I mean still only 60 now but like 60 of the world are on the internet now so I you know I think standardization did do a lot to uh to to help grow use of the web um and

it's a lot less fragmented I I I feel like it's a lot less fragmented now than it was uh back then um but at the same time you know for every case there was you know a big company that got a new thing to be a standard through the sheer force of you know the amount of user money you know power that they had there was a lot of cases where that also failed right so like fundamentally I think what becomes a standard also sort of relies on it's like yeah you can sort of kind of nudge things in the right direction using money using your you know product using your user base I

don't know like integration amongst your ecosystem but at the same time if you know if people feel like it's a it does a shitty job like I feel like people won't use it and there will be another competing standard waiting to kind of take that place right and yeah maybe sometimes that's an open thing where it's not controlled by one company uh and and I think that actually reflects more of like the crypto experience because there's less of like patents and um you know portability of anything between one blockchain like between two wallets it's like way lighter than you know like I can't go from YouTube music to Spotify whereas like you know if I don't like this wallet I can move to

your wallet and you know if this wallet happens to do a better job of what I tend to use the Crypt like blockchain wallets for then like yeah this I think that's actually absolutely how the crypto you know standardization happens through like massive competition and just like people going for Niche markets and pushing barriers for what you know at that time could be unpopular but you know if it's unpopular and bad then you lose if it's unpopular and you're you know and it's good then you win right yeah I love that part about crypto it's just completely open anyone's up for grab so yeah yeah like while portability is I think like a great thing like it's great that

we have that and um and to me it feels a lot like how email is portable you know if you if you if you you know if you want to really move your email box from like one to another you you can like the SMTP will allow you to do that using using a client like you can I've done that a few times and still works um that's not the case with messaging apps though like messaging apps did not adopt any standards and uh like Ben Thompson talks about this and he talks about how you know there could have been a standard like like if you look at if you look at email well email uses a SMTP as a standard email clients and email providers have built all this added feature sets on top

of it but fundamentally it still uses the standard you can always just go back to the standard messaging apps could have used like SMS or whatever as a as a fallback standard and then build all kinds of functionality on top of it so you could have you know had like encrypted messages through SMS or whatever but still fundamentally use like an open standard but they didn't and you could like it's it's interesting to see how like two of them main Communications uh uh mediums that we have today went like two very different routes in terms of standardization um yeah yeah SMS is a great example of you know like rather than spending time to you know like I mean there were attempts to upgrade like the SMS for

phones for such a long time but like yeah all the stakeholders like the telecom companies like the network you know equipment manufacturers the phone manufacturer like all had different interests so like you know some messenger company basically just like in Korea everyone uses kapow and you know I feel like the reason why it took off was because it had cute emojis that you couldn't send over SMS and you know people used to charge you for on a per message basis whereas Messengers didn't yeah and they built a boat around that right and it's like you know it's it's unfortunate that they couldn't you know it's like they they don't open source like they don't open you know portability but like that's you know not

in their interest so it's like it's a very like prisoners dilemma thing where like you know if everyone sort of agrees to each other in this Ideal World obviously we just love if SMS was like messaging was just way better but um at the same time like could you imagine like using SMS for like five more years like you know no Emojis for 10 years because people couldn't come to consensus on what the right standard is and like um you know and then you're gonna get this like tick and talk of like standardization and completely proprietary and then some [ __ ] blows up and people start kind of moving off into this like all right let's create a stand around this and then so you know it's always a balancing hmm yeah this this is really interesting I I really enjoying this conversation I

think like I think that uh examining how Technologies evolve and like looking back on it it's always it always just seems very obvious and like for me for crypto like the obviously the the story is still being written so you know I'm really I'm really looking forward to having this conversation again in 10 years exactly yeah uh let's let's put that in our calendars um so yeah I mean in terms of uh in terms of what people are building right now I I I feel like we're at a point right now where we're going into obviously like there there is a bear Market um right now that will probably last for some time

may get worse we're not going to speculate on you know market cap or prices here but uh I think it's safe to say that uh we're going into a winter and you know typically in the past when we've gone through these Winters and this this will be my third one uh We've uh We've you know focused on building infrastructure and uh and building tooling um do you think that this is what uh will happen over the next you know months and years do you think that there will be a big push towards infrastructure and tooling and um or you know what what is your what is your feeling about like what people will be you know are going to be building now for the foreseeable future um

I think people will still build more applications than infrastructure and toy um just because uh well let me take that back actually I think I I guess I I have no clue in the last cycle I guess a lot of people built in front tooling uh also just extremely hard to monetize those things if you like you know other than crazy high evaluations in the bull market or yeah very good macro cycle um not sure what that looks like for for this part that being said you know like I feel like what kicked off like that last bull market was

basically like yeah and like you know like D5 summer and like yeah you know like it wasn't these like infrastructure and tooling companies and teams that like kicked off like the bull cycle like obviously there were a lot of things I had to go right with the macro economy and everything you know like covet stimulus money whatever but at the same time it was like yam and like synthetics and he just started showing all his you know Fortune stuff and like there's a lot of things you know funner these applications that get people excited and I always have this in the back of my mind where like you know um wallets only succeed if there are compelling applications so I'd love to see more of that I think

you know maybe I'm a little bit biased here but you know I'm hoping to kind of build some of these compelling applications on osmosis uh mostly because it's where I get to you know have the most fun building and have a lot of opinions on the directionality and um yeah get to ship the fastest what are you most excited about right now I am Cosmos osmosis or just like generally in life I am currently extremely excited about you know how all the tea evolved into more of this like identity layer for the blockchain uh reputation layer uh traditionally you know everyone's been

focused on dids in the context of how do we store government you know credential information so you can use it on the blockchain but like I feel like no one has kind of thought enough about like hey can pseudonymous like identities have reputation and credibility and I I would say absolutely yes and can you do that on a purely on-chain data and traditionally I think I was I would have said no but you know we're increasingly moving to a world where that's starting to become a yes because people are using blockchains more and more today and um yeah I think wallets that leverage this part will be interesting um and there are many interactions on

the blockchains where it would be 10x stuff on if there was a social element I don't think building a social graph from the bottom up like it's like hey let's create a new Twitter you know from the bottom up like on the blockchain I I you know I I find Value in the things that you know people who are doing that but for me it's just like hey what if taking needs you know like troll boxes or you know tokengated groups based on delegations or you have avatars that you know you with items that you earn based on what you did a year ago or you know so I think there's a lot of kind of like

small fun element like there's a lot of room for fun in crypto and I think that fundamentally relies on the identity and the social part um I'm not an engineer I'm not a mathematician so I don't get really excited about New Capital efficient curve models and you know D5 models but I feel like you know you could basically create the exact you could 10x the usage of crypto by having you know zero improvements in all that we've built by just leveraging more of the social and the fun parts yeah make crypto fun again it's a good note to have none I think yeah

um so last question who should come on this podcast next that's a great question I need to figure out who hasn't been on here who would you who would you love to see I mean I'll tell you if they've been on before but uh I'd love to see Sasha from Haifa okay I think yeah I think he has a very interesting take on kind of community social graphs governance and things like that oh I don't know I always end up liking his tweets a lot and be like there's a lot of things that I relate to in the way it actually says it and I'd love to see that so yeah maybe might uh that's a good that that's a

good recommendation uh I like that a lot yeah and he's also got a bad kid so yeah yeah great well uh Josh thanks this has been great really really glad we had you on and uh interesting uh interesting get your thoughts and yeah let's let's do it again in 10 years and we can let's make a bet standards all right thanks so much thanks take care and to our listeners thanks so much for tuning in we do live streams every Thursday uh make sure to subscribe hit the notification Bell and the like button to yeah get notified when I go live every week and uh you can follow me

on Twitter I'm set 3.0 and I look forward to seeing you again next week foreign