ATOM ALIGNMENT with Noam Cohen of Binary Builders

Transcript

welcome to the interrupt my guest today is gome Cohen he's the interchain builders program lead at binary Builders they're building public goods for the inner chain in today's conversation we'll discuss binary Builders and their role as maintainers of the cosmos SDK and the entertained Builders program we'll discuss the research led by the team and specifically the Adam alignment treasury proposal which goes up for governance on the Hub this week we'll talk about how adom treasury could be used to promote a growth and success metric and the implications of prop 848 on the future of Adam as money I'm also dying to find out why he thinks a potential Hub Fork is a net win for Adam before we get started make sure to hit the like

button and subscribe to get notified when new episodes drop every week remember that none of what we discuss here on the interrupt is investment advice and if you enjoy this content please consider sticking with us we're validating on OS Quicksilver osmosis and Juno just look for interupt in the active set my guest Nom C is coming up right here on the [Music] interop hey gnome how's it going good how are you thanks for having me here yeah great thank you uh for coming on it's been a long time coming and like I

feel like a lot of guests I bring on it's like I've really wanted to get you on for a long time and um I guess it's just because there's so many good people to bring on the podcast in Cosmos that like you just I mean there's like so many episodes I could do at a time right so uh I'm I'm glad you're finally on and uh to talk about the build uh binary Builders the work you guys are doing around uh sort of incubating and accelerating uh teams in the inner chain and also specifically I think we're going to spend a lot of time talking about um the Adam alignment Treasury proposal that is due to go up just as this comes out so basically this week um so yeah let's get into all that but first just for those who might not

know you give us a brief background on yourself and uh I think it's worth mentioning that you're not only building in the inner chain you're also the front man for a rock band which is pretty and i' I've yet to hear your music so maybe maybe you should should shill your your your Spotify well you know it's funny I I tend to keep those lives somehow separated or compartmentalized I don't know why I I do but uh yeah um I'll give you a bit of an intro of my my my history so I I dropped out of college like six times uh and uh like actually uh and and uh I focused primarily on like game development game design and and also philosophy those are the ones I

spent most time on and um worked a lot in like small jobs while I was basically a musician touring musician in Europe and the states and uh um and and a lot of that work was sort of like it related um but not somewhere where I could really build up a career and then in 2017 I started getting into crypto um primarily because it was interesting from the technical perspective became a Trader at some point for a while uh which is you know always a real roller coaster um and some point I think somewhere in 2021 I was like you know this isn't really for me this isn't actually where I'm using my brain uh but I do like this crypto thing so how can I get involved in a different way and I applied to the interchain foundation and I became the devell for a developer

relations engineer for the uh for the cosmos sub I worked together with Billy at the time and um and a little later I turned I became the yeah the developer relations lead I was responsible for the interchain developer Academy and the um developer portal which is like an entry point for a lot of the new developers in Cosmos and then somewhere around time of yeah actually the beginning of this year and of last year um I moved to the builders program the interchain builders program and um you know together with Steph and a few other folks and uh and then that was at binary Builders at some point so that's uh that's that's roughly the summary I don't know if anything's missing yeah and this is this whole music thing where you that that that is a life that was a life I'm not really on

stage that much these days but uh yeah so you're not really touring so much these days no I mean like not really I mean we actually I was gone for uh the pretty much the entirety of November and we recorded an album um which will come out in a while um but uh yeah that's that's a bit of a it's difficult like we all have different jobs now different lives like this all happened around the pandemic where where everyone changed their you know priorities and and I guess for me it became this uh which is cool I'm happy with in my role right now and I'm happy I could still make music so yeah cool uh well I I I try to make music once in a while I've got a bit of gear back here but U yeah I think you know when you like work a full-time job or

like have a company and like you want to you know keep sort of like making music it's it's really challenging and um yeah find find a time for hobbies I think is is always difficult but important uh for sure you know want to live a balanced life yeah maybe maybe we'll put the link to your to your Spotify in the in the showes um so yeah what is binary Builders because like I think a lot of people sort of people don't really know who what like what is this team or you know how is it affiliated with the ICF because a lot of folks at binary Builders were previously at the ICF so like I feel maybe there's a little bit of confusion there so maybe just uh explaining what it is and you know how

it came to be sure yeah I guess for this the historical context would be important um where essentially uh at last year and before that we had that interchange Foundation we had the SD team the IBC team and also the tenderman team at the time um working on the full interchange stack uh together with of course other entities in the ecosystem um and there were some cultural differences between the team um there were some concerns with like leadership making uh making like a unified strategy around the whole stack and and yeah differences of opinion essentially that caused uh a few of us to basically decide like hey we want to Branch out and do not Branch out but

like leave and start our own firm or or join another firm and so owner and Marco um owner at the time was responsible for the builders program together with Steph and Marco was the product lead for the S he still is they decided like hey um let's go start binary Builders they already had binary Holdings which was the validator that was on the cosmos Hub and Osmos and a few others and that was a good starting point and so in in the beginning of this year binary Builders was officially there and the whole SD team as well as the builders program team essentially migrated to Binary Builders and yeah and that's been going quite well for for for for this last year actually we've been having a really good time in the company I think the culture that we have internally is very fun and and engaging and um yeah I feel

like I'm really at my place here and um yeah in terms of like what does binary do what is it so yeah we' received funding from the interchain foundation to do this public goods work which is for the SDK and for um uh for the builders program and then we of course also have our validator which is something we just run independently and we also have numia which is sort of a data analytics firm that operates atively isolated from us like it's not like we you know that's that's almost its own company um and that sort of like I think plays into the strength of binary builders in general where each team is generally relatively independent we do our own thing we make sure we get our own funding right so it's not like so like when we get need funding for the build this program with ICF like we take

care of that our team and then SDK takes care of for themselves uh and if numia um you know numia is is a profitable business uh and so you know they take care of that for themselves as well and our thinking is also so that you know it's a great place for us to build intellectual Capital to build talent and if people in the company essentially want to start their own uh product their own firm their own thing their own little side project that can turn into something larger like numia then that's highly encouraged um and so it's a great sort of like starting ground or like starting place for for something bigger okay cool and how how big is a team the the whole binary group basically the yeah I think we're at about 17 people right now roughly I

would have to check um something like this so yeah growing essentially okay so internally I guess like the the two main activities uh I mean of course there like Pia but you mentioned it's it's sort of isolated from uh the main activities of binary Builders the two main activities is maintaining the cosmos SDK and the interchain builders program could you maybe describe the yeah the interchain builders program and you know you know how you help teams and also at what stage uh you provide support to uh teams yeah sure um yeah so the interch builders program started out as an accelerator program where essentially minus the investment but we

would help teams um generally preed stage or like early stage teams who were wondering okay well how do I even set up a legal entity for example or how do I deal with fundraising basically in all the business sites the business side of the story go to market strategy their token economics but also on the technical side because we do have close ties clearly with the SDK team but also with IBC and and the common bft team and so we assist projects in just trying to you know we try to make their um projects more successful um and then we do it in in sort of like Hands-On you know we have workshops where we come together with the team specifically we work on on specific detail of like oh what about this go to market strategy or if they're trying to fund raise they

they essentially give the pitch to us and we work with them on multiple sessions to to get the pitch in a better shape and then we share them with the investors in our Network and we try to help them you know raise funds essentially um and yeah that's been going really well I think somewhere around the mid of this year like halfway through we realized also that you know there are a lot of people applying or just in generally interested that are necessarily building a cosmos project but they were interested in integrating into Cosmos somehow or creating getting Partnerships with in the cosmos ecosystem and for us it's also very important to start thinking about like how do we reach out to The Wider web 3 Community um and so we are also now in touch and and supporting teams um

outside of Cosmos in terms of like trying to get them integrated into IBC or trying to get them integrated into or maybe they want to use some specific token in in in Cosmos or they want to partner up with some specific chain and we try to see if we can help them um and yeah and so some things are changing now so you know we've done a bit of a retroactive uh or like a retrospective uh view on on the year and in terms of like is this the best way to spend our money is this the best way to promote growth within the ecosystem and the thinking was that what we should probably prioritize is less so the accelerator program and more so this thing where we reach out to projects or projects reach out to us that are outside of Cosmos and so next year um

we're in in the process now of like formalizing this and and getting that clear with ICF but next year um we'll likely do a lot more outbound Business Development meaning that we'll start reaching out to Enterprises we'll start reaching out to um web 3 companies outside of Cosmos to see if there's any interest in migrating to Cosmos there's been a lot of really good success stories so far this year DX being one of the biggest ones and um we want to make sure that there's more of those kind of scenarios happening essentially and we want to create the the support structure that's there and also the sales structure essentially because that's really it we need to do more sales and more marketing a more reach out to to people to start building in Cosmo start using IBC yeah I think like that's such a an

underrated support function that uh Cosmos I mean has but it's been I I think it is we're starting to see organizations kind of take on that role that business development role I was listening to um the episode that Ethan and Sam Sam hard and Ethan Buckman recently did on uh um on the Empire podcast one of the block Works pod G and and Ethan was was was pointing to this very problem right that because Cosmos is so decentralized right uh it's been difficult to have very efficient or effective business development now you know I think it's it's a stretch to think that Cosmos will ever have very efficient uh business development in the same way that maybe

Avalanche has or near or some of these other organizations that have a sort of a focal point in in terms of a foundation organ organization that really taks all that role but you know given the landscape of Cosmos and how decentralized it is I think we need to figure out what is the best way to have uh Business Development and sort of external facing support U for the ecosystem and you know having teams like binary Builders uh take on part of that role I think is like really crucial um AA obviously takes on I think some of that as well I'd love to see the interchain foundation also you know act as a um as a funling mechanism perhaps to you know direct some some queries and things like that um so yeah I mean it sounds like this is sort of starting to

come together like what's the road map you think for you improving um business development in in the interchain and in Cosmos more generally well I mean you you hit the nail on the head in the in the issue for you know it being so decentralized I do think a few things need to happen and they are happening um so at first I think the ICF needs to you know H take a more active role in this in this position um and I know that they're actively hiring like a marketing director which should also take on some business development roles the way that I see it for this year is that you know they hire a person there which is essentially the the person we report to um in terms of our RBD efforts um for us it's like we are already at the moment

like literally as we speak um um creating a Target list of projects that we want to reach out to what we do then is like we list all the different categories that we think hey if a project from this migrates to Cosmos or if they integrate the cosmos what's the impact for the cosmos ecosystem if that's high cool then let's explore what the the selling point is for the cosmos stack or The Interchange stack Etc so like that list is being crafted right now we're building decks um and and we're trying to get the contacts ready to to make sure that we can reach out to them and get a foot in the door so so that's happening in q1 we're going to get started with this straight away yeah and on the on the ICF side they are you know doing two things things they're

hiring uh marketing people for each individual product team so we are currently actually in the hiring process for for marketing Folks at the SDK team like the ICF has a marketing team um but they're you know they have too much work on their hands they can't be responsible for all these individual pieces of the stack for example so so that's being sort of like addressed now finally and that's great I also think there's a place for a BD role in each individual team as well specifically for the SDK and IBC uh but in the meantime we're trying to do what we can we also have other bottlenecks here for example specifically when you look at IBC when you know we are seeing interest from from other ecosystems to integrate IBC it's just that the work required to do

that is so big right building a light client is one thing but then you also have to build the IBC uh the implementation itself if it's not a chain that's written in goang or in Rust it's going to be very very difficult to actually integrate IBC it's going to take a lot of work and so the question then is like who's doing that who knows enough about this to do that the IBC team at the ICF um has limited capacity because they're working on the protocol so there's there's not just BD but there's also making sure that we have the developmental resources to support anyone interested in actually building on top of Cosmos and so yeah that's a work in progress um and we have some thoughts on on how to address some of these things we'll have to see sort of how things go but I know that that

satisfies your your your question um yeah know I me that I mean that I think makes a lot of sense um yeah I guess uh it'll be it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out and also like I guess the the real challenge here is figuring out how to coordinate all these different teams and being highly efficient at you know making sure nobody overlaps and that there's efficiency in terms of like where our resources are all allocated and that's often the most difficult part right yeah um as as we know in Cosmos coordination can be sometimes a bit tricky yeah would like to talk about the the work you guys have been doing doing on the research side so we had Yousef on a couple of weeks ago go from AA da folks who maybe haven't listened to that episode should go check

it out but basically AA DA has uh had a a grant um uh that was issued out to several teams in the ecosystem to do work on very specific areas uh relating to the hub uh that work was split up between three entities there was blockworks research rmit and uh binary Builders and so I'd like to maybe describe the different areas of of research uh that these grants were given out to of course like we've talked about this on the podcast maybe for folks who are not super familiar with that and and also you know what is the area that you guys have been responsible for right yeah so there's three teams that have been involved here which is block works and rmit the university and then binary

Builders the way that I sort of describe it generally is that the block works is thinking very so all of it is sort of the topic of to toomics and governance and the agreements between sort of like interchange a with within the a perhaps ibe that's the best way to look at it and um the way I I see it is that block works is very much involved in sort of the inflow of money uh in terms of like um you know that's monetary policy fiscal policy so we're talking about the inflation uh rate for example and how to handle that we're talking about uh some taxes that they're thinking of like a voting power tax basically that that sort of like shift some things around that's better to talk to blockworks about it because they have some really interesting things uh to think about

here um and then U binary is more sort of like thinking about well the other side of that equation which is like how do we spend the money effectively and so that is in one way that's um protocol owned liquidity and you know liquidity as a service which is something that we sort of touch upon with the atam alignment treasury which we'll go into I guess and then uh secondly is sort of like how do we pay for our uh Developers for example or our validators um um and and some other costs that we have and how do we do that effectively for that we have sort of like two modules in mind um that that will address that problem because we we are seeing now some very interesting things happening in the wild and that's what we're trying to respond to essentially it's like the requests

and multiple proposals for for um you know protocols to ask for liquidity from the Hub in order to you know liquid stake it and then put it onto a liquidity pool which is super interesting that's that's one use case that we see in the wild and another thing that we're seeing is like the recent proposal from informal and hia to get funding from from the community pool in to fund the development um and we're also seeing this other issue which is validators just having a really hard time to stay afloat now with especially in the bare Market um with energy and security and the costs getting so high so those are essentially topics that we want to um address and then rmit the third part third player there is essentially sort of like looking at all of that from the outside and saying well how do we govern um some of these things

and how do we actually make decisions in some of these fronts so specifically also talking about the the agreements that we have with the interchange secured zones um like Neutron and and stride and and and um yeah how do we how do we come to agreement about what are these contracts like and how do we revisit them if necessary um and that's sort of like yeah the things that we're doing in summary and specifically with the research that binary Builders has been leading uh what What's the progress there and what have you published so far yeah so um so far we've published two sort of like research articles research posts let's call it that on the Forum um one for the Adam alignment treasury which goes into a very long-term vision

of what that could be and another one for the developer Revenue incentivization program or the drip which essentially um is a summary of like how do we pay for companies like informal how do we pay for their work in a much more efficient way instead of essentially dumping 5 million at them on the market in one go and then you know making sure that that they have enough usdc um so those things are are are published like the description of how those things would work for the atom alignment treue there's also an actual proposal that's now on the Forum that will go on chain this week um so that's that's good so that's not a proposal for you know like integrating the the module itself that is a proposal for like hey does this sound about right is this the

direction we want to go in if so thank you we'll get started on developing this module um that's that's that's the summary of that essentially and then there's this third module that we are um so yeah I have I have to I have to still publish a post about this but that's essentially going to be done in January February and we also be an onchain proposal same for the drip which will also be onchain I think in January so three modules all on all onchain uh proposals requesting approval to start developing them I think by the end of February all of them okay so so this uh this Adam alignment treasury you this was posted to the cosmos Hub form in September uh it's a pretty lengthy

post that describes uh how the Hub could align itself with interchange security secured chains uh as well as the BR ecosystem to drive value to uh to to adom so there's three stated objectives it's a growth the financial alignment with consumer chains and increasing decentralization of Hub voting power um how do we achieve the these things and what are the biggest challenges because I mean there there's the there's describing right what is the strategy and what the objectives but then there's the actual implementation and that's much more challenging so how do you think about these things so the first

two topics a growth in financial alignment with consumer chains I think that's uh I think that's more worked out at the moment the decentralization of the hubs voting power is also actually being addressed a little bit more by block Works than than our current thinking for the aat um so that that's been sort of deprioritized as a as as as a feature for the first phase of the aat at least the atom alignment treasury um what we mean with AE growth is just um we we mean sort of like you know enabling protocols to to launch successfully and I'll take I'll take a recent example here and in fact I can I can take maybe a more modern example that that will probably come up in the future um let's talk about stride first so stride is is a consumer chain they

are a liquid staking provider um and they they you know they want um atom to be liquid staked and and and we think that that's you know at least like a lot of us think that that's a good idea because this will enable uh more atom to be available in Defi and if more atom is available in defi that means that people are you know that the strategies that you can deploy um in on around Adam will be more stable and as such Adam will be more attractive to trade with and maybe will increase demand um and so when we think about growth here we think about well how do we make strip more successful and one way to do that is to actually um you know to to to make the the liquidity pools where one can trade liquid state atom with regular atom to

make them more stable so right now for example the there's still a bunch of spikes in the in the pricing there for example so you know if if you're trying the issue with that is that if you're trying to borrow against your liquid state atom for example and the price can Spike really rapidly uh or there's like a lot of volatility because there's not enough liquidity you can get liquidated on your on your position and that's something we want to avoid because it makes it less attractive to to defi things without them so so that's one way to look at it um then we can take a new example um there's this project out there um called amulet and they are very interesting project that allows you to basically get an advance on your atom yield um you give them your atom they'll stake it and you get an advance and

basically it's a self-repairing loan this only works if the token that they give you um the am atom in this case is you know essentially pegged to to the to the atom token and there is a Arbitrage opportunity for people to make sure that this is always pegged but in the beginning um this will always be very difficult for them to actually get that Peg going so one way to go about this is this is the way where the Hub people where the Hub can essentially support these projects to say you know what we'll borrow you some liquidity we we can get it back at some later stage we'll borrow you some liquidity and then um you know uh you guys can go ahead and um create an LP where the am the am atom and the atom token will essentially be a little bit better pegged I think they're

coming out with that at some point maybe maybe I'm jumping the gun a little bit here but uh I think it regardless of whether or not they do that I think that's a great idea and I think this is as a as a premise this is something really wonderful that we can do where it's not just that we're offering security um shared security as a surface but now we can also offer growth as a service through liquidity injection or liquidity as a service that's on the growth topic uh and then there's also the alignment topic should I get into that one as well yeah I want to ask you about the maybe just stop on the growth topic for a second so like growing the growing atom value and you know growing the AZ uh as an idea I think is is a laudable goal I mean but there's two

questions here I think one when we need to Define what is a because there are different definitions going around about what that is exactly some people think that it's IC secure chains only uh others are in and I'm I think I'm part of this mostly part of this Camp is that I think the AE is more of an economic zone as the name implies more so than a security zone so I would think that you know protocols that make protocols that uh encourage the use of atom or that uh Drive usage of atom like osmosis for example should also be considered part of like some economic zone even though they're not secured by the by The Hub um so there you know what's your view on

this and then the other question would be like what are the kpis for growth like how do we in say in a year or two year or five years from now uh look back and say okay A has grown right very good questions so on the definition of AE so I think let's take a definition that I think we can all agree with on a different topic which is the atom secured Zone the atom secur zone is literally the cosmos Hub and then all other networks that are secured by atom yeah um this is going to get a little bit more tricky when you get into the topic of mesh security where you know a chain might be secured by multiple tokens as well Adam um we're gonna have this conversation again I think but sorry go ahead yeah reaking

also I think we'll make yeah yeah exactly yeah um so so we're going to have this conversation again at that point but that's one definition and I think without a doubt I would like to say that the AE the atom economic zone is inherently larger than the atom secur Zone uh that's that's the basic premise I go with and then how large is that and what does that include that's a really good question Sunny is a is is a large proponent of saying um osmosis is part of the atom economic zone I tend to agree because without osmosis Adam would have not been as successful as it is today um we depend on osmosis in many ways um there is a sort of like a non outspoken sort of like agreement between um the cosmos H and and osmosis and we

both benefit from each other if the osup would go away osmosis would suffer if osmosis would go away the cosmos up would suffer this is not something you can say for something like I don't know injective or some other network where that connection is not so easily drawn so yeah I don't think it's ever been formalized that sort of relationship um I think this new proposal 858 is a good way of formalizing that and it's looking to pass actually I'm just actually checking my screen right now but like that looks like it's an overwhelming 7 some per yes as of uh Monday December 11th yeah perfect yeah that's an overwhelming yes so so I I think that's a great sign um I think that also I think it's sort of a sign that people

think that osmosis is part of aez I mean it's that's what I mean yeah exactly yeah that's exactly what and I think that's a great sign I think that also enables us to do more interesting things with protocol own liquidity and with with with governance and with with a bunch of other things uh but we'll have to see sort of how it plays out but I'm happy to see that this is sort of occurring um that people are thinking about this and that people are actually showing how they feel about this through unchain governance which is you know I'm glad that we have this uh so in my mind osmosis is part of the AE um but that question will continue to keep going up I think this definition is not something formalized yet um we could think of that in the future I think Sam Hart was sort

of the pioneer on on defining or trying to Define how how this all works together he has a beautiful ven diagram somewhere I believe uh which is very similar to how we think about the European European Union the United Nations and all these other things um and I think we're in the early stages where we'll sort of see how it goes and what happens here but I'm I'm personally 100% convinced that the AE is a larger subset than the uh the atom secur Zone yeah and and so what are what are the kpis we should be looking at here in terms of you know what constitutes growth yeah yeah kpis are tricky because a lot of them can be misleading um so when we look at for example um just The Interchange stack itself right and when

we think about how do we grow or how do we increase adoption and then just the total number of clones or Forks of the SDK is not sufficient right or the total number of app chains is also not sufficient because there are a lot of bat app chains out there as well I'm sure and so how does that apply to um to the AE well I think revenue is a very very very important growth metric tvl is not so much an important growth metric because tvl you can use it once or you can use it 10 times uh the volume is probably probably more important I think IBC volume in terms of like us US dollar value is also a very important metric um but I think you hit the nail on the head in the sense that we don't actually have these sort of laid laid out and that

there's not really a single team or that there's not even a group of teams that are all behind a certain metric or certain set of kpis in order to you know say that what we're doing is the right thing um and I think this is something that at that's this is a real issue there's nobody at the center of this conversation saying hey guys from now on informal systems AA binary Builders hia notional whoever else is involved we're all adhering to these kpis and that's what we're doing including Neutron including stride Etc like it's hard to actually do that hard to get to that stage but yeah those kpis I think would would be a good starting point um so Adam Price not a kpi Adam Price yeah yeah so it's funny it's like when you

talk to builders they they they they talk less about the price of a token uh Adam Price I think actually it's a bad kpi because because um Adam price in terms of USD is a bad kpi um because the USD value of any cryptocurrency is beholden to the macro uh the macro circumstances of the macroeconomic situation so that's just a bit of nonsense most of the time tokens will go up and down depending on you know what Bitcoin is doing essentially um but Adam's performance in relation to the rest of tokens so the total market cap and the ratio I think that is a very good indicator that we can start using I'm not sure though at what time frame we're thinking of when we talk about that metric um because like you can you can see a proposal pass like the 10%

inflation uh you know the recent one where reduce the inflation rate and that had somewhat of an impact on the price very briefly but it's very hard to tell what exactly had that impact like with kpis you want to be able to say oh you know this was this was because of XYZ it was because of this reason that reason and when you look at like IBC volume and you see that you just launched Noble and now you you know you know you see IBC volume go up dramatically it's part of the a um that's cool we can start tracking that we can say oh cool this was because of that reason um but when it comes to Adam Price It's a bit tricky to point to the cause yeah I I I think um some some Metric proportional to the global market cap of crypto maybe maybe

like yeah maybe just relative to Ethan and Bitcoin would be a good uh indicator because I think I think that also will inform the quality of atom collateral Adam as as collateral which which is something we can also talk about maybe a little bit later U but for now I'd like to yeah I mean I'd like to maybe go into a little bit of the details of the of the treasury um yeah sure uh proposal you know where where would the funds come from are we talking about the community pool or is there like some new allocation of fun funds or growth of uh of the overall token Supply here like what's the

idea yeah I mean that's essentially up to the community there's a couple ways you can go about this you can seat the atam alignment treasury with funds from the community pool if you'd want to you can also say hey you know what a percentage from inflation goes to the Adam alignment Treasury and maybe that's 3% or 5% and we take that from the percentage that's going to the community pool from now on you can say that and there's also you know Revenue streams that we have it's not much at the moment but the interchange security Revenue stream could potentially be used for this as well especially because it's there to build alignment and another way to go about it is actually um the neutron air drop for for example right so Neutron had an air drop it's it's coming to the community pool I think

there's a proposal on chain right now it might have passed already I'm not sure and uh that would essentially give a bunch of neutron tokens to the cosmos sub community pool um in my mind well well first of all we have to decide what to do with these Neutron tokens but if we decide that some of that is going to be used as protocol o liquidity and we're going to you know like LP neutron atom tokens somewhere for example which I think is a great idea then yeah that should sit in the atom alignment treas so um it's going to be sort of like up to the people up to the atom holders to decide how we want to do that on our end we just wanted to make sure that we could enable two things essentially one is that you know we'd have a much easier

way to distribute liquidity as opposed to using these signatures that we're doing right now so just for some context you know when this proposal is going to pass where um you know osmosis gets uh some atom tokens to be deployed for um you know SC atom and atom um that means that there's going to be a bunch of people with a multi- signature wallet that are going to actually execute those transactions they're going to liquid stake some of these tokens move them to osmoses using IBC and then they're going to put them in LP and then that multisig has access to those tokens and of course we trust these people and that's fine but there are a lot of risks involved here um there are risks in terms of like these these their wallets can be compromised and there's also the risk that you know probably not in this case

but in some cases the mo the the the people themselves might might be malicious right I doubt that that's the case but still um and then of course it's complicated um and essentially what you want to be able to do is just like have a proposal that says let's liquid stake some tokens and then let's move them to osmosis into the uh my cat's meowing uh let's move them into the LP on osmosis and what we're trying to do is make sure that we can essentially just have one proposal that says that and then something happens we interact with probably a third partner a third party time wave in this case um that would like execute the logic on via Smart cont contract on the back end but the second thing that I think that's very important here for this mechanism

is that when we look at those Neutron tokens again and we think like great now we have all this voting power on Neutron but we can't actually do anything with it so all those tokens I think represent roughly like 50% of the currently liquid uh Neutron tokens uh meaning that the Hub essentially has a 50% stake in Neutron governance at the moment but there's nothing we can do with this and what we want to get to is a stage where as an atom holder if Neutron decides to vote on something really important let's say they want to say we're changing our inflation rate uh or we are um leaving The Interchange security Zone we we're becoming our own sovereign um if they decide to do that then its

stakeholder should have a vote on this and right now we can't do this and so what we're designing with the atom alignment treas is that essentially the neutron tokens will be sitting inside the atom alignment Treasury and then if a very important vote comes out anybody that is an atom holder can create a mirrored proposal like it would essentially clone The Proposal from Neutron and it would appear on the Hub with a shorter voting period so it's done before the one it finishes on Neutron and um you would vote on that with your atom token and then when the vote is completed the Hub as a chain uses interchain accounts to vote on Neutron with its full voting power okay interesting so here we have the so basically what I'm hearing here is that Adam alignment treasury is more than

just about how to utilize funds in order to get to these objectives right like a growth and financial alignment Etc it's also a governance uh a new form of governance module that allows the provider chain and consumer chains to vote in each other's um governance um to to to the extent that they can with the tokens that each of the chains hold yeah that's correct and that's at the moment asymmetrical meaning that the The Hub would be able to vote on Neutron and stride if it had any tokens U and and not necessarily the other way around um but that functionality can be built relatively easy on the other chain but

that other chain would have to do something um so we're setting the stage here and we're saying like hey this is how you do interchain governance and who else wants to join can join so in terms of the philosophy here the governance philosophy uh is the idea for then any proposal to be put up for for governance for vote on The Hub and then token holders Vote or is there some amount of Delegation of power to a DA or some kind of an organization that you know would have the ability to vote on some of these proposals you know similar to the way that the community has allocated tokens to a a in order to you know Provide support and grants to the

community is is it is the philosophy of the same or is it more of like let's do everything on chain or is there some kind of gradient at the moment it's let's do everything on chain like we're taking the lesson from the white paper 2.0 that came out and there was a lot of feedback on sort of like this idea that there would be some group of people um managing these funds or managing some certain amount of assets um I don't think that's really we're not there yet I think our governance system hasn't matured enough where we could have or maybe it's not even desirable to have delegation um systems like this you know at the moment I think it's simply like if there is a critical proposal on a consumer chain this will be mirrored somebody can mirror this you can technically mirror

any proposal if you want to but that will just be considered spam I think and then so I'm assuming that this is not even that much but it could be like one two three proposals a year from Neutron appearing on the Hub and then yes every Adam Holder will vote because they are a stakeholder and especially because they have such a significant amount of voting power as well um so that's that's the first version I am open to you know seeing what the community wants and and making sure that we have the infrastructure available to make the changes that the community desires um but I think at this very stage given how governance is going so far I think people aren aren't very keen on you know giving giving away their voting power to certain smaller groups and I'm okay with that okay no that that's interesting I

mean I think just in terms of you we we've had this conversation before on the podcast in terms of uh effectiveness of decision making you know the the community is not not always I think Ethan talks about you know uh having the context the competence and those like three C's right to to governance and uh and I I thought was like opt remark in terms of people's ability to vote in an informed way on some proposals MH and and there's there's also you know sort of like voter apathy right that's also a problem where uh in in many proposals you know the like voter turnout could be uh could be pretty low um although you

know I think Adam governance has pretty high turnout on governance generally yeah yeah so I do have some thoughts on on this whole governance problem that you're describing uh cuz cuz there's two things here like first of all the whole reason why we delegate to validators and they get to vote is because at the time when the cosos up was created and all these other chains there wasn't really enough distribution of the token and not enough sort of like um participation to get to a significant Quorum that matters and this is something we're seeing with neutron as well right so their Quorum for um for governance proposals is 10% meaning they need to get 10% only 10% in order for a proposal to pass and this is because a lot of the tokens are locked up and

stuff but with the cosmos Hub now we have so much participation like so much active participation and not just the less than 0.1 Adam Bots that we seeing vote on proposals for for airdrop farming but like actual people voting on proposals and so the first thing that I would do if if I could change anything is is set up a governator system of sorts where essentially you can delegate your vote to um to anyone not just to the valid validators because I know that there are validators who do not care about cover governance and they are not informed and they don't know what they're voting about They Don't Really Care and there's lots of them who do and they are great um but I think it would be great to give the validators the opportunity to opt out if they want to

opt out of governance and I think it would be even better if we can allow people who are you know specialized in certain topics to be able to say hey vote for me I'm happy to delegate uh or not yeah essentially you're voting for them um and I'm happy to sort of like use your delegated vote to to vote on these proposals and in that world I also imagine that there would be specialties so if there's an infrastructural um upgrade proposal or something um the validator should vote on that right or if there's a consumer chain that needs to be added the validator should definitely vote on that but if the um let's say if there's a community spent proposal to fund a specific grant for for something maybe the validators aren't the right people and maybe there's a different group of uh individuals who've been delegated to

that could vote on this specific topic and so I do think there's a a universe where we have people who say I'm a specialist in XYZ uh topics and that means I get to vote on these type of messages and these type of proposals that come in and please delegate to me and so that's one thing of the the story and then the second one is and this is actually somebody propos this on the Forum I forgot their username I'm very sorry because like it was a cool idea um but they said essentially what if we um make it so that when you don't vote actively your vote counts less so what that means is like if you don't actually go to Kepler and you click vote Yes or no Etc and you are essentially your vote is being cast by your validator or the

person you delegated to then that vote becomes less powerful and I think that's actually a very interesting mechanism because this way we're rewarding the you know the we're incentivizing people to essentially like be active in the Forum and active to be active in governance and and that's something I think is very important and worth exploring it's it's funny you mentioning this because as you were talking about governance I was thinking about this very idea of being able to delegate to you nonv validator governance experts if you will and I think in a governance this is how things work right there's no there are no validators there but you have these delegates and so these are companies and organizations and Dows that are basically sort of like specialized in governance and as a as a token holder

you can delegate your governance power to these organizations I mean this is pretty common place in ethereum um and I mean we could also have this in Cosmos I mean you could like delegate to validator for X reason and then also just like delegate your vote to another person Dow or entity uh for either all of your governance needs or as you mentioned like specific message type so you should you could leave like your validator could vote on parameter changes and you if you want to vote on community pool spend proposals like you delegate that to some other entity and that entity uh get some kind of commission for for that work um and then on the on the voter turnout issue right like the ability to vote easily I'm

gonna I'm gonna like shill this this this uh this thing I think I may have sent you this um on telegram but I I I hope I can talk about this so there's this team working on this very cool project it's called IBC dobot and um and basically the whole idea is that like you can just set up a um Oz you give them Oz access for governance voting and they have like a telegram bot and it just like sends you every new proposal in a telegram message and you just like vote right in telegram you don't have to do anything you just don't have to take out your Ledger you don't have to pull out Kepler it's just like one click and it's super cool and like I hope these guys build up this

product and uh make it available for all the chance we just had a call with them actually and this is a good example of like how it works with the builders program so jump on a call with them and uh you know they tell us about where they're building and this governance thing is more of a proof of concept than than you know the reality of what you can build with this is much larger because of auy you know you can you can essentially authorize this telegram bot to do anything if if you if they build it um and it could be very interesting to sort like manage your defi portfolio in telegram or to manage uh literally anything or send tokens to another person uh using a bot you know um and you can like integrate that into telegram I think it's really cool and so

what we do in the call like that you know we we listen to what they have to say and then we try to think about well what's the business case here and what's the growth opportunity Etc um but so that's fun uh but yeah back to the governance side of story this is a great way of of of getting a bit more participation it is still a bit tricky or you know you have to go to your desktop and get to your Capital wallet or if you're using a ledger wallet like myself or like you know others I'm sure uh you don't really want to whip out your your your your your your Hardware wallet in order to actually vote in something so a here is perfect and we don't have the infrastructure for that right now IBC dobot sounds very interesting and I'm sure there will be other Solutions as

well yeah anyway anybody anybody that's interested in this should check it out I put the link yeah in the show notes so you there's you mentioned these other two modules so there's the drip module and the uh stability Reserve fund module which Yousef mentioned on his episode I think that the drip module is is pretty interesting what's the yeah H how does this work and what how is this relevant to the context of like the notional proposal to clawback their U their right their uh Grant and I think informal is also uh concerned here right yeah exactly so uh let's look at sort of like how funding even happens right so a a team wants a certain amount of money um sometimes up to some several million in order to do work so in formal and

high-fi they requested I think 5.3 million and so there's a couple of problems here it's like first of all um it's a lot of money so if you pay that out straight away in one go you drain the community pool in one go and that's that's difficult um secondly all that money they can either sell it immediately uh and as such you know create quite some sell pressure or they have to do it through an OTC deal and they have then they get a discount and it's it's not the best price situation or they stick to it and then hopefully they sell something over time and then if the price goes down they're kind of screwed because now they don't have 5.3 million anymore they have 2 million because for some reason the price went down um or the opposite way and the price just went up um 10x and

now instead of paying 5 million we paid 50 million for this work right so that's a bit silly and that doesn't seem to work very well so um and then there's also cases where like a notional case where even notional is saying now please take the money back um because you know our there's something that's happened to our company and uh please take the money back but we can't because those tokens are vesting and we can't do anything with those tokens and we have to do some really annoying uh upgrade process where we literally change the state in the code and then we you know distribute a new binary to people so that's that's terrible so uh the way to solve this is essentially and some of this work is already being done with with with the SDK team where essentially we allow

funds to be streamed from the community pool so you could set up a stream and then you know money goes to a certain address at certain intervals um that's great but that makes it very difficult still if you have a specific US dollar cost to cover so let's take the case of informal systems and hia they want 5.3 million um you know you can set a certain atom amount to be streamed to you over the course of a year but maybe the atom price is very different at that stage so what the developer or what the drip really does um is is does the same thing but based on a USD value so you would make a proposal you would say hey we want 5 million we say okay that's great um what's the minimum you really need what's the maximum uh we can really

accept and you they say okay cool we W between four and 7 million depending on how the price is moving and say okay cool fine and then essentially every day you pay them out based on what the price of atom is if the price of atom is really low you give them a little bit more atom if the price of atom is really high you give them less atom very simple mechanism um actually not that very complicated at all but the nice thing here is that we can like stop the funding whenever we want to we can just say hey um it's not working out for us sorry guys um stop the funding or um we can adjust it later if we say hey um atom price is getting really low uh it's a bit dangerous now because we're spending too much atom um yeah so on the

Forum post um I go into details there sort of like how that would actually work um and um yeah and then hopefully we go on chain with that um next month no very th those are very cool ideas I mean is is the is the cosmos SDK governance I mean basically mean I think the idea that I'm trying to put forth here is that like building Cosmos SDK modules is is very hard it's like this a very sort of heavy development work whereas building this in kmm is probably you know 10x faster you can eight itate a lot more quickly and there's like less kind of surface area for vulnerabilities and things like that um would it be better for this to

be built as say like a dow dow implementation rather than like building this as cosmos SDK modules I guess then the question is you where do you deploy this because the cosmos Hub doesn't have exactly um cosm wasm that you know sort of puts into question a lot of a lot of choices I guess from the perspective of the cosmos okay but yeah what's your your thoughts on using some lighter uh development Frameworks for building this out yeah yeah this essentially come boils down to the question of where do we want it to sit well when it comes to actually the development time it's I mean we the cosmos SDK team we have no problems building modules with with Cosmos SDK we we do that really quickly probably the fastest than you know

anyone can do I think in the ecosystem maybe besides osmosis they're also really fast um so so in terms of development time we're not too concerned um in terms of upgradability it does become a little bit more tricky right because it takes 21 days essentially to upgrade because it has to go through governance um that's the one part where um it's difficult when we look at the atom alignment treasury this is exactly a very valid concern so the atom alignment treasury should essentially interface with liquidity pools on other ecosystems right and those can change they they can have API breaking changes at any point in time and that would mean we'd have to wait 21 days in order to make you know that that would be unth workable so the way that we thought about it with the Anam alignment treasure is like well let's make sure

that the assets sit whenever they can on the Hub let's make sure that this logic is you know on the most secure place it can be which is the Hub itself the basic logic of this but let's make sure that anything that actually interacts with all these other protocols that that sits somewhere else in this case Neutron and so this is where that company time wave comes in and they essentially build all these smart contracts and all that logic that's supposed to like interface with everything so similarly for the drip and also for the stability Reserve fund which is something else we we think that some of that base logic when it comes to like touching the hub's money should sit on the Hub but when it comes to um actually interacting with other things in the ecosystem so potentially getting price information or potentially um uh

figuring out know where to send tokens or how to um you know how to interact with the specific protocol everywhere else um that I think needs to sit on km bom so in our mind these these products and these features they exist on on multiple different places at the same time where the most secure stuff when it comes to touching the money itself sits on the Hub I think that's a good framework to um yeah to to think about like where things should sit and um yeah I guess I guess in terms of building up modules since you have the development capabilities to do this and uh and the bandwidth I mean these modules can also be used by other chains

right right so it's it's exactly in line with this public good idea that you're mentioning earlier exactly and and the thinking here is also that that some of these modules that we're building there for example when it comes to like the US dollar price for atom right we need to have this information so we need some kind of Oracle system where we need to interface with osmosis in order to get that price and that will be applicable to both the drip the stability reserve and probably later also the atom alignment treasury so to have that logic sit in the hub makes a lot of sense what surprises me is that you know people people raise people raise a concern about like oh you know we shouldn't add more logic to the hub because you know this increases the you know the attack vectors Etc but the logic we're

describing to be added here is super simple and it doesn't even interface with other modules but then when o c came uh and O C was added to the hub nobody batted an ey and that was you know an actual that was a risk you know like that happened and nobody really bad than I and there was a risk there was also you know there have been you know there was a there was a security issue I think not a long time ago so you know the the logic that we're describing here is very very rudimentary very simple stuff um and it doesn't even touch on you know the banking module it doesn't like mess with staking it doesn't mess with anyone's tokens and so there's not really a lot of risk in this case okay I'd like to zoom out a little bit here

we've been talking a lot about the nitty-gritties and um I'd like to zoom out and and talk a little bit about the Hub and AZ and you know where you see this going into in the future and there's a lot of overlapping overlapping topics here obviously you know 848 uh was an important moment I think in terms of solidifying the hub's you know long-term success and reducing the cost of uh security to the chain that has sparked this whole new uh debate now and sort of like internal drama about atom one and and this potential Fork um so yeah I would like to maybe get your thoughts on this also

because you think you know that the Hub Fork is a net win for Adam can you uh maybe talk a little bit your position here and how you see moving forward yeah there's essentially two groups two camps in in the cosmos subub governance right there's the ones that say for lack of a better term Hub minimalism is the way to go uh we are a you know we offer security um and that's it and then there's the other group of people that says and it's not just about Adam is money it's that's part of the conversation but the main part is really like we need to innovate we need to come up with something um the the original H and spoke model for Cosmos is not

playing out as we thought asmosis is more of a hub than the Hub is at the moment um you know and and IBC routing isn't really something that has found product Market fit at the moment so what do we do right and there's a bunch of things to come out of that it's like okay well maybe we are money maybe maybe we just turn it into the preferred asset in in the inner chain maybe there are other features that we launch that we you know do maybe there's different service offerings that we have like liquidity as a surface so there's like two camps and the inflation the proposal to reduce the inflation rate was a very good way to sort of see how everyone was feeling about either side of the story um and the reason why I think a hub Fork is a net win is that it

essentially well it depends how it plays out but it essentially you know makes sure that the people who are aligned with the we need to innovate we need to think about Adam's money we need to think about what to do with Adam that they are the ones that are actually going to be setting the agenda hopefully and that the people who wanted you know Adam as a very minimal or the Hub as a very minimal product and Adam as a security as a as a token to secure other chains not as a security token that's a very different meaning um but uh um they get to do that in atom one but that really depends on how the H plays out because if you Fork you essentially create a bunch of new tokens um the way they want to do it as I the last I heard is that essentially

the people who voted no on Prop 848 would get more of those tokens than the people who voted yes which is a great way to make sure that you know there's alignment on that specific chain but of course they still own their original atom tokens and they can still vote on the cosmos up so there's two things here it's like well one hopefully they give less of a dam uh because now they have their own project and like it sets The Narrative a little bit that chain does this this chain does that you know and like and that that's great um but ideally I would also see you know actually people selling their atom for the new atom token atom one token or whatever they want to call it or there being some mechanism where you can essentially mint those tokens by burning atom um at Genesis or something like I

think that would be the ideal um setup and that way we will make sure that you know know the the people who stick around for the original atom chain get to do what they want to do without so much push back and on the other hand the people who are really for minimalism they get to do whatever they want to do on their chain good luck you know like to both of us and I think that's a great setup because then we can just like move a little faster do do you think that uh the idea of having a chain that does security and does a whole bunch of other things is opposed with the idea of Adam as money not necessarily I mean yes well yeah actually if you think about it if you are opposed to liquid staking and

you are opposed to reducing the inflation rate because you want to make sure that the bonding ratio is a certain percentage you are essentially opposed to Adam's money because you are creating such a small uh the liquidity is reduced to such an extent that Adam can't even act as money because it is all locked up because it is all being security essentially so yeah I think those two things are not compatible yeah what do you think is the hub's most valuable attribute like how does it really stand out amongst other blockchains and you know specifically you know Bitcoin eth and maybe like a handful of others like other blockchains outside of Cosmos you mean yeah then for sure I

would say it's governance component like that's definitely it's its largest um and most interesting um sort of feature other than that I mean it's security offering is interesting but I think we still need to see whether or not there's a business case here um that's that's the hard part we we haven't still figured that one out yet so like I think the Hub could have been so much more than it is right now the Hub should have been XLR it should have been should have been composable Finance it should have been uh Babylon it should have been um what are we missing here it could have been Celestia you know for all that matters it could have been all of those things it could have been providing services to the interchange in some sense um and that wasn't the case for all kinds of reasons

which we know we can get into um but essentially you know lack of leadership and organizational debt and all these other things and so now that that didn't happen and that all of those things weren't successful we need to sort of just figure out what to do and I think to answer your question like what is its most valuable feature or asset I think it is governance because it does enable us to actually do this in in a decentralized way more than you would be a B to do that in different ecosystems I think yeah what what do you think of Sunny's take that uh Adam should should become a capital asset by declaring itself governance backed

money um I don't know if you have any uh any good takes on this so so I didn't hear I I didn't listen to that uh podcast unfortunately so I mean he did he tweeted about it he did this whole tweet about like basically this right like Adam uh Adam's greatest asset and differentiating Factor if you if you look at like Bitcoin ethereum and atom like Bitcoin did this decentralized gold ethereum brought applications and defi there and then Adam innovated on governance and you know his point of view and I'm paraphrasing here is that interchange security does not does not uh leverage atoms uh most valuable

attribute to the fullest extent it is basically competing against other chains on a different design for doing scaling security and yeah scaling and security and uh and that the Hub would would benefit from the entire Community sort of rallying behind this meme that uh Adam is a capital asset Adam is money like basically do the bank list play right and um maybe maybe we need to maybe the maybe the interop needs to run with this right like run with the atom is money meme um but but yeah and then and then that way Adam becomes a capital asset

not only in Cosmos but in different chains can be used as collateral and grow the usage of Adam you on on this on this backbone of like really strong governance and that's that's sort of the idea and um I I I'm a I'm a big fan of it I think I mean like I think what we've been doing so far is in support of this idea right like literally the atam alignment treasury literally the drip the the stability Reserve it's basically a way for empowering atom holders to be more precise and more uh more expressive with what to do with the atom token and and how to leverage that and how to use that um and then the atom alignment Char he specifically turning the atom token

into a governance token on other ecosystems I I think we're very much aligned with with how POS positions themselves there yeah absolutely is is is governance Adam's biggest uh gift but also it's curse it's it's curse yeah it is yeah it's both um and this is what I mean with the fork I think the fork can also like alleviate some of this curse aspect of of this problem and I do hope it happens um I mean I hope so because I mean essentially the way I understand this is that they get to have their cake in you to to right where they get to you know Fork I mean specifically Jay gets to fork with I mean I don't know how what I've heard numbers of like um the

portions of 90 million atam yeah I mean he he he has an important stake in adom yeah uh he gets the fork and also keep his stake in atom so I you know I and then if he sells that puts like tremendous down down like sell pressure on um on atom so I think the community also needs to think about how they want to deal with this now I've kind of of floated the idea that I mean some somewhat a bit factiously that that we should prop 16 him but I don't think that's a good that's a good precedent for I mean you can and I thought about how also but uh you can you can do it without actually having to do any state changes to to the thing but uh also I I want to correct myself I said 90 million it's actually 9 million is so 90 million

would be crazy but like it's 90 million worth of yeah Power yeah prop 16 I don't know that's that's going to be contentious but yeah you can do that with uh Li liquid staking module essentially I think you could uh you could basically tokenize his Stak assets straight away and then uh send them in in one block to to another wallet like the community pool if you want to so if anyone wants to do this uh feel free okay so basically stake okay so his atoms would remain staked because they're staked you can't so how would you do this right like let's theoretically approach not advice to you know to Adam governance a thought experiment yeah

just a thought experiment so if if you wanted to do this I I'm not sure what the limitations are liquid staking module actually but like I I as far as I'm aware you can technically you know tokenize your stake um tokens straight away this is how you can do it with with stri right now for example right you can say I want um I want to use my Stak atom and convert it to liquid Stak atom immediately so we would essentially do that we would just convert um that you would have a message where you would convert those token to to um to liquid Stak tokens or actually you tokenize them essentially and then you essentially move them to some other place and you can do that in one block and so if you were to put that proposal up right now there's nothing somebody

could do about it you can try to unstake but you wouldn't be on time so that's one way to do it without actually having to do like a a change in the state Etc um yeah but yeah anyway if anyone's interested um to you know create some chaos if you're like a chaotic neutral person in the in the characters of of the web 3 this is your gamepl um so what's next steps here on what I mean regarding regarding the uh alignment Treasury and all the works you guys are doing yeah so uh alignment treasury um yeah onchain uh this week and then if that's an overwhelming yes we have to figure out how we get the funding for it if the

AA Dow gets approved we will go through them they've already signaled that they want to support this if they if the community also agrees and then if they don't get it then um we'll just go directly to the community pool then we will build this in q1 um and then hopefully launch it in Q2 and then for the drip and the stability Reserve module that is essentially the same progress but a month or two later and they go in that order so it would be the Adam sorry the Adam alignment treasury the drip and then the stability Reserve fund um pending approval of the community fot of course I want to make sure and this is the whole thing we've been trying to do this as transparently as possible as like you know openly as we can we want to make sure that

everyone has an opportunity to you know speak out and and let us know what they think and that this is essentially as much of a community project as we can make it cool well no thanks so much for coming on uh if people are building an interchain app or or product they should go to Binary Builders I guess to reach out yeah absolutely uh always uh DMS are always open so I'll put the links in the show notes and also the uh link to the a sorry the a growth and Adam alignment treasury post is here in the show notes and uh depending on whether or not the proposal is on Chain by the time this

drops we'll put that in there too thanks so much for coming on it's been a really fun conversation and um looking forward to having you on again soon thanks for having me really appreciate the time