ATOM 2.0 GOVERNANCE DEBATE 🤜 ⚛️ 🤛

Transcript

0.0 white governance of atom 2.0 this has been a hotly debated Topic in the community and I'm very pleased to be joined by an All-Star panel who will hopefully get to the bottom of these issues we're going to get down and dirty and we are going to debate item 2.0 uh here on the interrupt today so let's get it started [Applause] foreign guys thanks for joining me here uh for this very special episode of the interop um let's uh first get started and maybe

get introductions from everybody here and let's keep it civil guys let's keep it civil friends here we're all community members and um and hopefully we get to the bottom of this and uh and have a construction conversation today but I'm 2.0 uh starting from my left um Kevin yeah so uh I'm Kevin Garrison I run validator with uh the rest of the team and uh part of Juno core team uh core Route 2 and uh validator on the cosmos Hub and a whole bunch of other chains and uh part of the cosmos community tricky

hey they're tricky from Cosmos faces uh co-founder Cosmos spaces we do a bunch of uh content and Community Building throughout the cosmos we also run validators throughout the cosmos and I myself uh do some beauty work for uh the utmost team thank you and just to clarify here so you guys will be speaking as cosmos community members not for the cosmos Community or on behalf of the community um I wanted to clarify that first yes thank you all of our opinions are our own that's right exactly and on my right on my right uh I have two of the people who help author the atom 2.0 white paper uh

um please introduce yourself hey um Sam Hart um I have a long history with Cosmos I was the first hire at interchanging BH worked on the funding program did kind of Grants core team uh work scoping um done a whole bunch of work on the governance system in Cosmos I was the the customer SDK governance product lead um still kind of down and uh and I I and I'm the the first author on the Apple 2.0 white paper um I've also

worked pretty extensively with udit on cleaning up the Forum and and just kind of like getting uh getting the the self-governance like up and running thank you hi everybody my name is udit um I'm from Hi-Fi Co-op uh based in Toronto um I uh Piper Co-op one of the things we do is help run the cosmos helps testnet program and actually just a quick note that there's a incentivized testing coming up soon and we're going to be helping Mattis that as well uh on the white paper side of things I'll help Sam author the governance section of the white paper also been

involved in a lot of the soft governance aspects uh the cosmos Hub including helping manage the The Forum um thank you so I'd like to start us off by getting to like the bottom like what is at the heart of this debate and maybe to conceptualize so that Adam 2.0 white paper was announced at Cosmo verse about two weeks ago um it was announced as this revolutionary upgrade to the cosmos Hub that would introduce a number of important and also very interesting new

features and functionalities but also novel to economics I did an episode with zachimanian right after he did his talk and you can find out here on the channel um for for more context um but yeah let's maybe start by at a high level describing um what what are the important changes to atom 2.0 and then perhaps we can get into the heart of uh of the governance uh debate and all the issues that the community have been raising around item 2.0 I don't know if someone wants to take that maybe someone maybe from the from the white paper side since uh yeah we can start with either salmon Rudy yeah I can just give like

uh some high level points on what the paper's trying to do um so uh there has been a an upcoming um well we've been working on two major upgrades uh to the cosmos hub um for you know better part of a year now first is interchange security and the second is liquid staking and um and those are extremely powerful features um and they they have some major kind of implications for um The Hub and and The Wider ecosystem and the first of which is that

um the the existing issuance model does not make any sense anymore in this liquid staking regime because uh basically liquid staking allows um or it will kind of incentivize stakers to um to issue these liquid staked assets and um and use those in in D5 I use those throughout the ecosystem um and uh and then interchange security is this kind of like platform for building additional functionality around the Hub um and so we kind of need to catalyze uh and more clearly Define what those those things that are going to be built around

the Hub look like so so it's kind of a you know it's a canvas to work on and um and in order for this to be successful uh the the white paper proposes a number of kind of additional changes so the first is is a change to the insurance policy we move away from this existing uh kind of two-thirds stick ratio targeting and we have the um we have the ability to to basically move to a fixed issuance model um and then the the other changes are basically uh um the addition of this uh allocator module which is a system for for

deploying capital and and managing capital um and and this is kind of to uh to give interchange security and um and and kind of the the integrated economy around the Hub a leg up and then uh we have the the scheduler module which my personal favorite um and that is basically a um a way to monetize cross chain the IBC economy effectively the cross chain economy um and then the last kind of piece which we're going to be discussing a bunch today is uh is governance system um to effectively deploy that capital

and just kind of like make sure that the The Hub stays in in homeostasis When anybody from the community side like to add anything here any observations or remarks on uh on Sam's uh overview of of the upgrades to the cosmos hub yeah I'll take a stab at it so um that that's a great breakdown you know and I think um it was interesting because I was at Cosmo versus I saw kind of the unveiling the grand unveiling and um it was awesome but you know it was a very short window of time to actually go through kind of the actuality of the

white paper up until that point I think a lot of people hadn't had a chance to like really dive in and and understand all the different aspects of it and how it all works and you know I see a lot of people still trying to digest it it's it's a very well written white paper and I think it proposes like a lot of really interesting changes to Adam but it is a shock you know there's there's a big change there to what people are used to and so naturally you have people going through those adjustment phases and and trying to understand okay what would this actually look like you know we're very used to this kind of uh 1.0 model that most chains have adopted of

you know some sorts of inflationary yield and um you know I think when the Hub was originally created there there was a different picture for it and a different role and that's kind of persisted over time this is the first time that we're really seeing um a very different model being proposed that focuses a bit more on um you know real yields um and and arguably the the more difficult but probably correct way to expand and accrue value over time you know that's kind of been the the meme forever is like how is Adam going to accrue value you know you have all these app chains that have a lot of utility that have very specific problems that they tackle

and for a long time the cosmos Hub has not been the Hub that it was supposed to be and so we have this huge amount of capital that we need some way to take advantage of right so like atom holders want to see number go up they want to see more utility and ICS was kind of the first thing that we saw that is like a promise of a a brighter future um and you know we know that's early stages now but even so there you know just as there was with IBC there's going to be the adoption curve of that technology and if that technology is to be successful we need to find ways to drive its adoption to make sure that it's

adopted in ways that accrue value for atom holders um you know and I think largely the debated Parts within the community are you know some of the finer points of of the article you know and uh maybe we didn't expect those points to be debated as as hotly as they have been but um you know things like the treasury and allocations and uh and what have you so I think the biggest thing is that everybody whether in the community or from wearing the Hat of a validator we just need to understand like what is the intended structure going forward you know in in the simplest possible terms

um and how do atom holders retain autonomy and control over uh the network and the allocations and these treasuries how will those structures work how will these elections occur so those have been sort of the most hotly kind of contended points that I've seen just in some of the different chats that have popped up and what have you foreign thank you uh thank you for that summary on the community side um so let's talk about the issues at the heart of the debate here so I've been spending you know the last uh 24 hours trying to read every Forum post every uh tweet

um you know going through the Autumn uh Cosmos Hub community forum and through Twitter and like scrolling through this um this telegram Channel which has you know thousands of messages and trying to get at the heart of the issues that people have with this uh with this proposal there was also an open letter that was written by a member or members of the community which um takes a pretty um I'd say brutal uh Approach at criticizing some parts of this paper uh we'll link to all that here in the show notes but from what I gather it feels like the issuance model and which is fairly closely tied to the treasury

seems to be the most hotly contested issue I think people are generally okay with things like liquid staking um generally okay with the idea that we could have an Mev uh Mev auctions on the Hub but it all comes down I think to you know how the issuance of Adam evolves moving forward and then the other thing is how is the money that goes into the treasury spent moving forward in a way that is um that best benefits atom holders but also protecting against um Mis issuance of funds and things of

that nature does that does everybody sort of agree that that is the main uh point of contention here the most hotly point of uh debate here in this uh in this in this broad conversation I mean I would say the the treasury or the issuance um and and then control of that resources what I kind of perceive as the the two main points that the community wants additional Clarity on yeah yeah I was gonna say I think uh one things I've noticed when people look at the issuance chart you know people get happy so excited they think it's it's great overall but where they get stuck

at is where the issuance goes I think uh the introduction of the treasury and the committee model um to some there's not a lot of clarity so you know they're making their own assumptions with the information they have and I think it's making people feel a little uncomfortable and they're just you know wondering like hey you know why are we sending these funds somewhere else that seems like we're not in control of um so I think we kind of mentioned this before the talk but maybe you know Sam and UD you can go and you can go into uh how the Committees are formed and how the atom holders still have control over these funds um and there's still accountability there is like a system of checks and balances maybe it's not so clear in the paper when people first read it

um but I think that we're like Adam holders at the end of the day are still in control of all these funds um just go ahead and ask the Juno governance is op we uh we don't let anything slide by yeah yeah I mean I think the the vision for this white paper is quite bold and it is totally reasonable for uh token holders and community members to ask for checks and balances um I think uh you know there's a sketch of the governance model for um Adam 2.0 that is provided in the white paper um but um it's only a sketch and the intent was always that the um the exact model that's going to be

put into place is going to be collaboratively defined with the community and that is actually what is written in the white paper and there's also a request in the white paper for the community to come forward and draft a charter together we can put the checks and balances in place together um and I've seen a number of community members pointing out um you know requests that they have for the types of checks and balances that they want um and uh these are things that we can put in the in in the chart together um the important thing in my mind is to strike a good balance between you know giving the community sufficient checks

over the council structure but also not impeding the um the council's ability to you know work effectively and and you know execute on day-to-day operations uh and that's like really the the the the the Crux of the matter in my opinion thank you yeah I think at the end of the day we all realized that there are people out there with Knowledge and Skills and expertise that should be in positions to make decisions that are best for us you know if we get in a room with you know all four of us all five of us uh when we're in high school plus you know Jack and Zacky you know we're gonna outvote them on anything we want but are we

smarter than them does that make it right you know so I think that you know we're allowing to we're removing some roadblocks of governance and some of that friction um to empower um some of these groups to make decisions that are going to be the benefit of all holders um but maybe it's decisions that we wouldn't be able to come to in the correct amount of time if we had to go through a full-on governance process so I think that these uh councils are actually going to be very beneficial to Adam holders and put people with the proper skills and positions to help us grow and help us move the Hub forward yeah I would add actually it's not just skills and expertise it's actually also in my opinion attention and Human Relationships like you want people to

have focused attention on particular aspects particular particular domains of the project and if you see the the business model outline in the white paper a lot of this actually depends on human relationship it depends on people being able to bring in the right projects um uh allocate fund funding to the right projects to grow this sort of atom economic zone right and that can't be done without human relationships and the and hub governance as a whole is not it is like a large entity right you need individuals with um with with real human kind of contact to do the business development work so yeah I just just in terms of framing

I I think it's less about expertise and more about attention and relationships in my opinion maybe just if we could uh take a step back here and explain this concept of of councils because I've read this in the white paper but also I think this is one of the things that maybe wasn't um so clear about how this would function and also like how these councils would be elected how they um how council members can rotate and these sorts of things take that um well some of these details are definitely not described in the paper and it's it's something that we wanted to discuss with the broader Community um we've kind of like highlighted a couple elements that like we should have discussions about together um

but let me just kind of start with like what what do we have today like how do we get things done today well there's there's kind of two systems in place like one is um this this kind of development ecosystem largely funded by by the ICF at the moment um there's a bunch of core teams uh there's work scoped uh largely uh motivated by the core teams proposed by the core teams and then kind of like the ICF is giving feedback other other core teams are giving feedback the community does not have a lot of visibility into that right now so like

that's definitely a major problem and it's something that we um we want to move more into the domain of the cosmos Hub like make that a transparent and like visible process but there's already like an existing structure there there's core teams there's work streams and and there's kind of capital deployment that's happening behind the scenes the other system is basically on-chain there's a community pool and um and very often there's like a a community spend proposal for a specific you know engineering project uh Business Development projects the prop 72

um the example is maybe the most recent there's a multi-sig that gets gets funds and then there's a set of kind of trusted stakeholders that are performing some kind of delegated operation and um basically like both of these things are like they're working but they're kind of like less than ideal like the uh the core development structure is like pretty opaque and complicated and like you know there isn't it's hard to kind of like navigate and the on-chain structure is you know there's a lot of trust put into these entities and then and then there's no way

for uh the the customers have Community to to negotiate rates effectively you know it's kind of just like one-off proposal and then and then trust that somebody's gonna do the work um so the purpose of the council system is basically to like try to solve both of those problems like create a common framework um minimal that brings those things together allows the the cosmos Community to to kind of get some visibility into what's going on make suggestions about what's going on um and

these councils are are really kind of generic entities like it is a project or or kind of domain specific group um and uh and then there's this assembly which which is literally just all the councils together you know um and the idea is that all the councils together can um uh can can try to make make some collective decisions about uh infrastructure development Capital deployment things like that yeah I mean one of the things that uh I've seen I've seen discussed in in the

different forms and on Twitter is this idea that governance on its own probably is not a great funding mechanism that uh you you know and I've seen like Jay talk about this in in the cosmos form where essentially he says something akin to the fact that you know in order to uh deploy uh Capital like investors don't just trust some sort of a group of random people they trust like General partner of course you have industry knowledge who have connections who have Network Etc and so I think that from that perspective and certainly like as someone who invests in the space and is like raising a fund in the space it makes a lot of sense to um to look at things that way however I think the risk

there specifically when spending funds that are um where funds that were there there is a a significant stakeholder uh capture by like token holders that that there's this this feeling perhaps that those decisions are made um in dark rooms without uh you know the consent of the community funds may be misallocated and so um there there's really this expectation of transparency and of um I think community of involvement that is something that is like very very much part of crypto of the crypto ethos how do we start to balance between these two models right like on one side

the cosmos Hub governance proposal model where effectively there's no um checks or balances on whether or not things are executed or any deliverables or anything like that on funds um allocated and the Other Extreme that is you know a committee of folks that are unelected and get to make decisions on how funds are spent what's how do you strike the right balance here assess that all the stakeholders are satisfied with the outcomes yeah that's even possible or at least get to some sort of you know place where most people are satisfied with the outcomes if I could just I I had a point on this and I think Sam brought up something that's actually I think a an

important one which is just the way that like things have been done traditionally like the cosmos community pool is not an effective funding source for anybody like if you look at even the stargaze community pool which much smaller chain um it's very specific app chain has a larger community pool for funding than the cosmos hub um most chains do and we're not going to get very far with 1.1 million atom to overhaul an ecosystem um so that's always been problematic is the community pool for for the Hub is just way too small the other thing is even if the larger

it's not very effective uh funding method so somebody just puts a proposal up on chain the best method that that can work out is it goes to a multi-sig and then you're trusting that multi-cig to make sure that Milestones are met if they're even included and ultimately it's a bit of a popularity contest for funding so how popular is the proposal it's very easy to make something sound shiny and nice but we do need people who have some expertise in project management launching chains um and and like really thorough vetting and due diligence to to do that Duty you know the only other funding arm has

been the ICF and um you know historically there's a lot a large lack of trust in in the ICF and I I'm just mentioning that as something that is true that's you know I love zucky Ethan's fantastic like talking to them in person I'm a big fan of them as people but when I look at the ICF as an organization it is very opaque there are a lot of questions around transparency and effectiveness and whether they're doing a good job or not is almost irrelevant because people can't see it there there's not a visibility Factor there so I I think you know if people are having and taking issue with like transparency

of funding and the ability to do so that's been a long-standing problem in the cosmos Hub and that's kind of kind of one of the things that I see this addressing if it's well executed and it retains its ability to be controlled through governance because the important thing is at the end of the day you want atom stakeholders to always have the ability to come in and say hey this isn't working for us you know cancel order um eject etc etc but we still need to be able to put things into the public View and do these funding Endeavors in a transparent way with effective Capital because governance is not the most effective

means of deploying capital yeah I just want to say I would definitely Echo that statement around transparency in the ICF so you know someone's been like in Cosmos since you know before the token sale and also I think you know fairly privileged position of being close to the tenderman team quite early on and like knowing a lot of the folks at the ICF like even I think that it's been like kind of hard to get access to uh to that organization uh various points where I've tried to and so I I think that maybe some of the the some of the pushback on the paper um at least I I feel that some of the pushback on the paper stems from that

historical like perceived lack of transparency um you know if we were in a sep like in a parallel universe where you know the ICF was like a vastly more vastly more transparent organization like say orders of magnitude more transparent um maybe the reactions to this paper would have been different and therefore so I I Sam maybe maybe you can you can respond to this and like maybe give your thoughts on and I know like you know Ethan has also talked about how the ICF is changing is becoming more transparent there's also an interview with Ethan here on the channel so I just want to check that out but yeah Sam what's your uh what are your thoughts on ICF transparency and how

how it you know it's playing out here in this debate well a lot of thoughts um and you know I I definitely bear a little bit of responsibility uh as well like fully fully admit um I I was doing a lot of the ICF like strategy and and direction um up until relatively recently um you know there there's two parts of this like one is a a kind of path dependency of like how did we get here with the ICF um

and the other is just like what is the ICF at the end of the day um so the first the first thing is the the primary development organization for the entire ecosystem tenorman completely melted down it is 100 dysfunctional like it hasn't produced anything of value in the last three years four years like um it ignite CLI is cool um but like the contributions have been like marginal um and uh like that that was the entity That

was supposed to build a cosmos hub uh like deploy IBC maintain the tenement consensus software like that entity does not work period um and as a result the ICF was was forced to like reconfigure itself to to actually hold those functions um and it just like was not set up to do that so uh like I said I was I was the first hire after that tenement meltdown happened at The Interchange gmph gmbh's fully unsubsidiary the ICF

um and the number one objective the only objective was ship IBC like the the whole project does not work if IBC is not there like every ounce of focus is like get IBC working make sure that it's safe and then the secondary objective was like make sure that there's like some that the neck that the network has value like that there's some economic activity happening that word because otherwise the project is also just existentially you know doomed so um the and the the capacity that we had to do that with that was was also severely

limited I mean um Jay was the president of the ICF for the first two years um literally didn't return a phone call in that entire time like we had to go through a whole bunch of red tape to to figure out how to uh to reconfigure the board um just everything about the icf's kind of uh organizational structure was like uh is is just not set up for for the kind of um execution um that you want around a you know

exponentially growing ecosystem it uh and so you know this kind of brings us to the second point which is like the the overall structure of the ICF the ICF is a Swiss uh stiff tongue it's a um it was a non-profit organization that um you know when they're doing the ICF does regular reporting but it does regular reporting to the Swiss government you know it and um and that reporting is in uh is in German like the um like the the primary stakeholder that it's concerned about is like regulatory authorities and um

and uh the the board and like the the member members of the ICF are like are are now at a position where they're like a little bit more equipped to to start dealing with things like the delegation policy and transparency but like it it those things were just obviously super important but they were they were just they were always the the second or third priority you know there's always like one one priority above for for um you know up until this point so that that's kind of like

where we are today and um and then uh going forward uh the the ICF is just like not the entity that you want like leading the development of the cosmos Hub like you want the cosmos Hub to be leading the development Cosmos head like that's that's what we want at the end of the day that's what everybody wants um and so the the white paper is like trying to to sketch a path to get there okay thanks for thanks for clearing that up I mean yeah of course like I think the the the the the explosion or implosion of tender men certainly put a lot of pressure um on on the ICF and on those teams and

you know there was a whole lot of uh reorganization of like people like human capital to reallocate that human capital effectively in a new organization the gmbh organization you mentioned at the time um you know not to make this I I I you know I I think we could probably do like a whole episode just on like what's what's going on with the ICF and you know the sort of history there um but I don't want to derail the conversation too much from you know the issue at hand here uh one of the things that I think people have been really um you know critical about here are like the checks and balances and we've talked about these councils we've talked about like uh governance and things of that nature

um I wonder if you could maybe address you know some of the things that have been discussed in the community around how to properly how to have proper checks and balances on um allocated funds um once uh once this proposal goes through yeah for sure so maybe you can first start with just like outlining the general like what's been proposed in the white paper so far and they're obviously considerations that we're thinking about but are not um are not quite laid out yet and these are things that we're looking for community um input into so um the white paper proposes in assembly structure the assembly is made up of a number of consoles each Council can delegate

Representatives um that will represent that Council in the assembly uh one of the the main kind of um check that the community has over this Council structure is um a community council so there's a council specifically outlined in the white paper four representatives of the community to have sort of day-to-day um you know the the community's voice and um uh the like be the communities like eyes and ears into the assembly structure so they can have more sort of like day-to-day oversight over the councils

um the the other thing that the community has is the ability to develop this Charter uh which which sets um with which um encodes all the sort of checks and balances that we're talking about here um ultimately um all assembly proposals are um are beholden to Adam holder veto so the so atom holders can always veto a proposal for uh that's made to the assembly automotives also have the ability to both onboard and off-board the uh the consoles so every time there's a new console

proposed atom holders can decide if that Council should be included within the assembly or not and they also have similarly they also have the ability to off-board um a console the things that we kind of need to figure out is you know we don't want a system where adding holders can um where you know there's work being done there's good work being done in this like um uh there's a governance vote to off board a council there and there isn't quite enough sort of uh a graceful transition period to move that effort into um another group of people who can take

it over so those are the types of things we're thinking about right now it's like how do we ensure this great graceful transition between one Council to another um how do we ensure that you know the people who are kind of doing the work have some amount of grace Time to uh continue doing the work and transition of that work to to somebody else other things we're thinking about are um you know setting up eligibility criteria for membership into the councils these are things that can be encoded in the charter um uh disclosure of conflicts of interests um you know these are things that can be

encoded in the charter as well um yeah that's that's kind of the the way we think about it Uh Kevin turkey uh would you like to respond uh from the community side how are these councils been um perceived from the community and one of the some of the uh some of the sort of points of contention here about how this is being proposed or ways that ways this could potentially go wrong I I think maybe this is just me I I get confused on it maybe just because of the terminology and and I could just be stupid

um and that's totally fine but I I sort of look at it and I go like I know at least the Juno way that we have things where it's like we have dowels and we have sub-dials and there's the Juno Network which is like the the parent out which has ultimate control over everything underneath that we have sub-dials which like for Juno this would be the Juno growth fund um so if we put something up and the Juno Community doesn't like it they have full like coded control over everything so they could dissolve the Dow they can cancel funding um they can change membership if somebody goes Rogue things like that so I think the biggest thing I've seen is

just sort of a bit of a confusion over Council and maybe some of the community feels like um you know there's a king maker who's just going to come in and go these five people are over you know all of the allocations and these five people are all over the business development and good luck you know and you've got to pass a horrible proposal to change anything so maybe it's for me it's just understanding like okay if I'm an atom holder and I see um you know for the sake of argument Sam you're you're on you're on a a council and you decide that you want to fund a project that is like the the worst project that's ever been conceived of and you want to spend 10 billion dollars on it right

um you know it's your cousin's laundry uh service and you think it's going to be great and we all go hey you're out of your mind we want you out what is the recourse that an atom holder has in a situation like that yeah um there's a car alarm going off in my background it's not too bad well first of all if if Sam proposes his counsel uh to begin with Kevin you as an atom holder can vote for this Council to not even be onboarded okay to not even exist um and secondly you can always vote as a council as an atom holder to offer this Council put a put a vote forward to to

offer this Council the things that you cannot do are pick individual members of the council and say hey we want to we want to you know fire this forcing and that's mostly because we want to kind of limit the atom holders ability to kind of micromanage the day-to-day operations for the console but Council as a whole you can you can off-board and onboard and can the council vote to remove a member if like yes uploaded yeah 11 people in and the majority of them go hey you know this person's being ineffective in their position or they just can no longer do the job can they

swap them out absolutely yes cool yeah so a couple additional details here so um agree that naming is is uh maybe confusing at first that it was intentional so the with the the next SDK up uh upgrade of 046 um natively in all Cosmos chains you're going to be able to make Dows which is mind-blowing I mean it's gonna change the game um uh shout out to Gregory who's in the the audience here um who's been helping with this um and and yeah so any group of people's gonna be able to spin up

a Dao effectively um a group multi-sig and and so we need some way to distinguish between daos and like and and some kind of uh explicitly delegated entity um not it because there's a lot of dows and but these are going to be the ones that are like blessed by by the atom Community basically like um so the idea is that okay you know all of us are um we're gonna spin up a dow uh we're we're maybe going to to do like some public goods funding or something like that together we you know we we think that there needs to be more Cosmos podcasts in the world and um and we all contribute some funds to it

well uh we can go and do that uh autonomously uh and you know maybe six months in we're like okay like we're doing a good job um it would be it would be great to get a little bit of Cosmos Hub support from this um treasury support from us and and so now we apply uh to to get that uh that that kind of Delegation from the uh from the council Community um so and and so we put up a governance proposal that's like hey this is what we've done as a as a Dao we'd like to become a council and this is kind of

like the rate that we're thinking is what we're going to do with it and that would that would be the onboarding process it's like okay we're going to kind of formalize our relationship to the um community and and uh and the treasury specifically so in a way they are Dows but it's like you could say it's like this is a special doubt this is core to the structure of the cosmos Hub and that's really the biggest differentiator is just like we're making the differentiation through these names that this is core to the function of the Hub and it's like a hub hub entity yeah one there's there's also a little bit of nuance here so there is a council that already exists it's this consensus

Council that's like working on tenement right there's a there's a blog post about it recently um and this is um like this is something that we really want on the Hub as a community like uh we want to make sure that like the this product public good is like available for the entire ecosystem and um this is not something that like the cosmos Hub owns you know like these are people from all different organizations like all different chains but we we want to like give them a home on The Hub and so that means that like they will maybe be accepting funds from other projects that like want specific

features in contentment um and this is also one of the reasons that they need to self-manage like the Hub can't just be like hey you you know this other person from another chain like you're no longer on on the consensus Council anymore like this needs to be an autonomous entity in order for that that entity to feel kind of like safely housed on so regarding regarding this update uh just side note here when you say that there's going to be Dows on the Hub are these just effectively just multi-sig addresses or are they more elaborated yeah they're they're whatever people

want I mean it's permissionless this is already possible right I mean we can already create multi-sig addresses at the layer one like with the SDK it's just not very well implemented it just it just sucks doing it yeah if you've ever done it it's it's almost yeah it's I have done it sure yeah it is a pain in the ass so they should they should really make it 10 times easier 100 times easier and not only that um the the kind of like level of integration with the like the objective or this is actually the product work that I've been doing the last like two years um the these like modules that you keep

hearing about interchange accounts uh the changes to the gov module that allow for arbitrary messaging groups all these actually like auth Z all these come together into like a composable system where you can just build kind of like whatever governance model you want so yeah like and that's actually some of what's sketched in the paper is like hey like we have all these facilities like we can we can build like kind of higher order structure now um and and be a little bit more kind of thoughtful with how we're self-governing um The Hub itself okay just one question here before because I realize we also want to talk about the alligator and the scheduler and there's other things also I want to

discuss but um with regards to this Council these Council formations so these will be multi-sig basically just multi-sig accounts that will have funds and then um there will be some sort of order mechanism to um to allocate those funds can we talk about like the sort of civil resistance of these Dao's because like unless we have kind of like vetted addresses or kyc addresses where we know that like this address belongs to this person or this Twitter account or whatever um you know there there are like civil attack there's potential for civil attacks here or for like some sort of um social engineering attack where essentially someone claims to be like a group of people but in fact they're just

the same person um can you address some of the issues here I don't know if this has been talked about in the community but it just feels to me like something that needs to be uh addressed either from like a social coordination perspective or from like a technical perspective although I don't know that we have the technical uh Frameworks to do this kind of like identity verification in a decentralized level yeah um it's super important question I would say it's like both harder and simpler than you make it out to be like the um like General civil resistance is obviously like incredibly hard and um and doing it at scale is incredibly difficult

um but we're we're not necessarily talking about it super scaled system like there there might be 10 councils or tens of councils or something like this and um and we have the ability to like do podcasts like this and like have community members you know have one-on-one interactions and like uh there is um they're real like human relationships that were that we're kind of talking about at the

end of the day and and um and so I I think that there's um creating like the perfect automated system is is going to be really challenging and and you know maybe we should work towards additional automation but um I think it's totally fine for like a council everybody to get up on on a Twitter space or a podcast or whatever and even if you're like a pseudo-non person like you still kind of to be about your positions and and you know talk about kind of your capabilities and and uh visit you know just kind of like what you're trying to do

um and and I think that that um we are talking about a kind of human scale system um that uh that has a kind of like manageable degree of um of kind of human verification that we can do yeah I mean yeah I think I think there is a certain amount of human verification but I think there is still a risk like there there is always a risk that like these things like the system could be exploited somehow like you know um it's not outside the realm of possibility to have like a um an entity or a person that would uh claim to be like a group of a non-people

but in fact they're just like one person um so actually the community council that is proposing the white paper should be actually tasked with doing some of his due diligence work and making recommendations to the community about whether the um this a proposal for a new Council has is sufficiently vetted and feels like you know um it is civil resistant enough and so on those are the types of things that the community council can and should be doing let's um let's please please know someone in the comments is suggesting

that Kevin uh should be president of the Hub 2024. consider this video you're beginning of your campaign yeah let's form a council to make sure that doesn't happen let's let's move on here to the allocator and the scheduler we haven't spent a whole lot of time on those um yeah should we start with the allocator or or is this like one topic that we that we just need to like batch together um I mean I think that work is a holistic system in my opinion um yeah let me give a rundown um I mean I guess it's start by saying it is cool that uh by and large

these are not issues that seem to be like contentious in the ecosystem like we've the things are just that we're talking about are like details and like everybody's like yeah allocator scheduler sounds great like let's get levels into details uh but like we've moved past this this like The Hub has no value mechanism it has no purpose like we've jumped straight to like specific details into like how things implementation um which I which just acknowledges I think a really good good thing um but yeah the um so scheduler start there uh we've been developing interchange

security um interesting security is a an instrument um it is a technology for um scaling a chain um adding additional functionality to a chain it says nothing about what the functionality should be um and I I'm of the personal opinion that interchange security is largely going to be commoditized like uh other chains are already talking about using interchange security mesh security like these are all um uh The Interchange security is not like a uh a moat um that that the Hub has available

and so the what we want what the Hub wants to do what the Hub should be doing is trying to corner a scarce resource and that resource like the the most valuable resource is uh is block space at a specified time um like this is something that is incredibly uh important particularly as the ecosystem scales and it's also something that that should scale with the the kind of size of the the IBC economy which is like that's like an incredibly powerful um concept so um the scheduler is is a kind of way for

um the the cosmos Hub to offer uh or create a Marketplace uh there's unforkable and um and in a non-coercive way like offer value to the entire ecosystem provide value back to that ecosystem and at the same time profit um so I think there's a lot of super cool stuff that's going to be built on top of scheduler um and uh I mean I'm like really excited about uh talking to teams about this um so anyway like that it's kind of a way for The Interchange security product to uh to have a moat and and actually like do this kind of in line with like the

philosophy of the hug like this non-coursive like Sovereign interoperability um mentality that's one the allocator um is a a way for you know the the world that we're moving into that's kind of implied by interchange security already is that there are going to be multiple Sovereign entities that are interacting with each other right and so there needs to be like some mechanism of like gluing these things together creating um multi-party relationships uh and that is what the allocator is intended to do you basically you're able to create a

um you know incentivized instead of compatible uh multi-chain contract with um you know that allows for things like a token swap um a a kind of long-term service agreement um uh and um and basically a way for the Hub to to kind of like economically connect to these peripheral entities so uh interchange secured zones is like the kind of obvious first um cohort that should be addressed uh but it could really be anyone uh any entity that's that's kind of IBC connected

what on the community side uh what have been some of the um some of the uh points of contention here with the allocator and uh and scheduler uh modules I haven't seen very many um sort of big issues being raised but maybe um and just missing those kind of tricky do you want to take this yeah um I think going through some of the comments um one of the big like the only real concern is whether Mev is is good um some people are still against Mev um but I think also some people kind of brought up a little bit of a good point of like maybe uh what's up soy uh maybe putting the allocator and the scheduler

through some sort of like a test run or test net um you know like ensuring that it does work as intended um especially in the long run um it would you know be you know unfortunate to use the allocator the scheduler and start deploying all of this capital companies funds and to find out that maybe there's something wrong with it and I think that's maybe some of the the only concerns I've seen I think for the most part you know people are actually pretty excited about this because I think you know when you break it down like you know the uh the allocator seems like token swaps with like an home Fork you know on steroids you know it's really cool um the way that can happen and then I think with the scheduler with Mev and block space like I think everybody I think like Sammy explain like block

space at any given point in time is going to be very valuable and so like one of the questions I had so like you said it can be it can serve The Wider IBC um ecosystem so can like Juno osmosis evmos can they come to the hub um and be a part of the scheduler and offer block space that anybody can settle on or do you have to settle on uh The Hub or said chain that you were on that you were uh secured by yeah um I guess I'll address that that last Point first um so yes any of those chains could uh participate in this this Marketplace uh but they also don't have to 100 optional like that's the way that the Hub is going to operate you know

moving forward like there's no coercion you do not need to use this thing but if it provides value like please like you know enter into in into this kind of shared Marketplace um I I think that there's super cool stuff that you can do with it like you can do timed IBC interactions with each so like uh at this specific moment we want things to trigger at the same time so kind of like alarm clock uh cross chain interactions um uh and uh and and then of course you can you know there's a whole bunch of kind of financial um uh you know applications that could be

built on top as well as uh uh as well as things that improve privacy and improve um uh the or actually minimize Mev at the end of the day so uh one of the the projects that was announced in um at Costco first was a collaboration with with air blocks um air blocks is going to use security and um and this is basically like a transaction encryption service which should reduce it let me be um and you can combine this with scheduler so like not only um

you know not only can you schedule these cross-chain transactions but but you could make sure that they're encrypted and and like actually uh providing um you know customers with with best sex best execution um and and the kind of like the most minimally extractive um uh you know order routing um should I go into your other question or I feel like I've been talking for a little while um okay you're talking about this kid uh the allocator um so

and I think the main point was was about uh the degree of commitment that we that we want to make to this um so both of these systems can and and really should be built on interchange secured zones at least the kind of core logic should and I think they're really um uh we can kind of like modulate the The Hub and the the treasury's like interaction with them so I I definitely see this being uh you know pilots and trials and and kind of like if those are working kind of it increase the the available resources

that that was sort of the biggest point that that I've seen and and also what I've chatted most about with like Zaki and and everyone and talked about in these chats there's you know people who are obviously a lot more conservative and you know there's always going to be people who are just like this is a terrible idea burn it um but there's I would say a great number of people who very reasonably want to see this system implemented but have uncertainties and doubts because of unknown variables things that we just can't determine right now so um you know zachies mentioned that he's in favor of like a slower rollout and

smaller allocations in the beginning um you know and being a little bit more conservative at the outset to like create a proof of concept which I definitely agree with um you know I think that it needs to be enough that like we can actually see if this will be effective with larger amounts like it can't be um you know here's a million bucks go you know create interchange security ecosystems that are beautiful like it's just not gonna happen but you know at the same time we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars and you know uh tail issuance and all these things going towards a single treasury like

people go like oh that's a lot all at once so I think it would actually help a lot in getting this pass through governance to go hey this is the long-term goal but you know here's our first Milestone with this paper and this is how we want to prove this proof of concept to the community to make everybody feel more comfortable yeah I feel that this is this is something that was missed in the paper and you know the the rollout details and I feel like a lot of the concerns and maybe the pushback on the paper would have been um would have been significantly reduced had there been a more long sort of

long-term uh Nuance uh approach to roll out that have been detailed in the paper um you know I Echo the sentiment of uh you know the open letter uh author um also my my co-founder over at epicenter uh Brian crane tweeted that um the the rollout should be more should be seen as a progressive rollout and that we should vote on on things uh piece by piece rather than you know a single uh big upgrade or um and so yeah I feel like this is this is something that needs to be uh maybe like someone needs

to basically like have a roadmap and say here are here are the goals like here's the long-term goal here's where we're going to try to hit um but like any plan uh plans can always change depending on you know immediate variables so if like one thing gets rolled out that doesn't really work or like actually um doesn't end up like fulfilling its goals then we need to reevaluate and so yeah I feel like this is really important for the long term um you know success of of this project yeah um totally hear that uh the yeah kind of initial response like there's a bit of a rhetorical thing like

the white paper a good white paper like needs to need spring division it's about the vision like and uh inevitably there's going to be details that are changed if you look back into the Bitcoin white paper like there are things that are not implemented in Bitcoin um and that was the number one thing that the Hub was missing is the vision and like it so the objective was to bring a holistic Vision that that fits together as a whole um and so this is why I'm I'm against uh breaking up the white paper itself into separate sections however the

implementation absolutely will be broken up in sections like no question this is going to be a multi-year rollout and at every step of the way the community is going to have the ability to say no this is not what we're looking for here but the the paper proposal is a signaling proposal it is all it's doing is saying this is the new North Star that we're that we're looking you know that we can kind of agree on and we're going to work together to kind of figure out um details and uh and make adjustments together I I can say what what uh I have you know a good degree of confidence

would happen if the um the white paper proposal is is approved in the first year or so um would that be helpful um so kind of as I mentioned at the very beginning um interchange security liquid staking already in Flight right um like interchange security is supposed to go online I mean it's intestinals now it's supposed to go online q1 um and there are going to be a number of liquid staking providers that are going to come online as interchange security is launched I mean stride is already online but there

you know there's a kind of host of others that um that are going to be important players and um and the the first step is to just kind of like watch that happen and observe and like kind of make sure that that's that's all being executed safely um in the meantime the community should be well we can kind of do a lot of planning um and the the community should be kind of working on a um a charter we're already working on one and we want to kind of invite feedback on that uh relatively soon

um so so there's got to be a soft governance processes the processes that can unfold uh simultaneously and then um once we see a degree of adoption with liquid staking and we we feel like it's safe at that point uh we we kind of there's a window to um to change the issuance policy so the the issuance and this kind of Proto assembly Council and assembly structure uh would be the first step um and we absolutely want like uh checks and balances on that like

restrictions um we want to uh to make sure that that's kind of um paste in a way that the community is comfortable with um and uh and then kind of having done that safely we can think about um the the deployment of these uh you know the scheduler and the allocator as as kind of secondary processes yeah you know I I hear that I I don't know if it I don't know if the comparison the Bitcoin is is a correct one when the Bitcoin white paper was released you know there were a handful of people reading this and the

implementation was done in very close quarters whereas here we're talking about a community of like tens of thousands of people and um value that has already accrued to those token holders who have invested in this project you know like emotionally but also financially and with their sort of time and sweat um uh yeah I I think that I I just feel that there's there's a there's a there's an Ultimate Universe in which the rollout plan uh or you know this this kind of idea that this would be rolled out over over some time could have been more effectively communicated or there could be more transparency around what the ambition

there was such that such as the concerns of people around like some sort of a I don't want to say like takeover but like some sort of forced um implementation of this of this um effectively I think like you know people who are have concerns here feel that this was kind of decided and uh that there's there's not a whole lot of like discussion to be had any longer even though it's happening like that is I think like some of the perception um around this you know hence this this conversation um yeah I mean maybe on the community side we can just get reaction to this and then I do want to there's one last thing we want to talk about which is

issuance yeah I oh go ahead tricky I'll just say um Sam I think it's important to realize kind of what you pointed out that like this initial you know white paper is just a signaling text prop it's not like we're committing to all these changes to be hard-coded in right away um and it's going to be like a phase rollout plan where like you said each time we have an upgrade with a vote for each phase you know the community has a chance to say hey we're we don't think this is working you know maybe it's time we reassess and stop so I don't think that this is kind of like a everything's already decided and you know there's nothing we can do type thing I think like Sam pointed out like it's the goal of the paper was to give the complete Vision you know and then from there you

know it gives us some direction um and some guidance to you know start pushing forward um so I hope people don't think it's kind of like hey this is it and we're done and see it sayonara like things are happening no like we're gonna have the the checkpoints in at each time to hold teams account hold people accountable and also make changes when we need to and be flexible yeah I feel like I feel like zaki's talk at Cosmos because if it's had like this big signaling proposal draft Watermark kind of like spread across the thing and then the paper itself could also have like a watermark that says like idea draft signaling proposal up for Community discussion um you know like I I will be the first to admit like

we didn't we didn't roll it out perfectly there's there's like stuff that definitely could have been executed more effectively I also like will freely admit like I was held up writing the paper and I was like okay you all like whatever make some slides like like other there there's like other entities that were thinking about like presentation and and how this is going to go um so yeah I mistakes were made um but yeah importantly like we're not talking about the Hub having no value anymore like yeah like like which is great

like that's a great thing to to come of this I think you know people have been screaming about Adam value accrual for a long time myself included and you know it's it's long felt like truthfully Every Chain but the cosmos Hub was doing something and um you know it's like oh is it going to be base money no is it going to be a hub no okay so then what is it you know and now we have like a vision of something that it could be that looks like it will work and that we have a chance to like actually grow with not just for the Hub but the entire ecosystem because it lets us interface with new chains like the usdc chain

that's a huge deal like it's a huge deal um and that's kind of like an an early win yeah I do want to just say one thing and I know said you want to move on to the next thing but just on the point of governance is when this does hit on chain um I I do think it's really important like just as validators who are voting on this and listening to the community it needs to be included in that signaling proposal that this is the broader Vision in north star that things can change under the implementation is negotiable over time but that we have like a guiding concept and an understanding that like this is okay to

change um you know it will be rolled out gradually and I just think doing that in like plain uncomplicated English so that like every atom holder you know at any level can understand it really easily is going to be super super important to making it possible so that's like my one like worry I guess it's just sometimes with like the white paper is very technical which is great because it like gets into a lot of the Nuance but like just having a very very like nice breakdown with like a basic road map and an understanding that this is a roll out that can change along the way will help a lot yeah I think that's I think that's that's right we don't add some documents like this at when we started and when I

showed some initial things they're like you know the feedback I got it was like whoa this is like cart before the horse here like you know we're thinking about rollout plan like we're not even getting like let's get on board with vision so yeah it's important to think like you can't please everybody I guess no no totally and and we're at the phase now where we like see what the great idea is and now we are talking about like okay well what's the cart you know and what is the horse and where is it going and all of that so I think it's good that we're having these discussions and getting to these points and I also want to just like thank you guys for engaging in it and being a part of the process talking to the community like that telegram chat is wild

um but it's good that it's happening I would you know give a small nudge to like please use the form like uh totally if you if you look I don't know how many I know it's a viewer you're around for this but like if you look at some of if you look at like the decision making that came about or that kind of led to the gravity decks being on the Hub almost all that was in Telegram and I don't think half of people could even find that at this point like and and I think a lot of people will agree that that like maybe

wasn't the best strategic decision so like how are we as a community going to reflect on our decision-making capability and like learn from these things if we if we literally can't even go back and see what we were doing um so the form is super super important and let's please make sure that like you know important details are are captured there so that we can go back and look at it yeah yeah I I agree that serving is like a filter it's like there's a bunch of really crappy ideas here's a bunch of pretty good ones here's a couple great ones and it's like great let's filter that to the Forum so that we have you know an actual record of things we have that archival resource and you know

everyone can kind of have a standard communication Hub around governments I think is obviously important some of the conversations in that in that telegram Channel have actually been pretty productive and very interesting and I think if there's anybody in this who's listening who's part of that telegram Channel you do a great service to everybody by just like going through that telegram Channel pulling out those important bits and moving them into a comment in the Forum I think that would be super valuable um there's a discussion that's been started around the charter in particular if there are specific things that people want to request to be included in the in the charter I think that's that's a great venue to place those suggestions into

uniform but there's you know the thing that I think is a little bit unfortunate is like there's now a proposal on the Hub you know this um just kind of like kind of proposal document and I and I I feel like that was very um you know those kind of disgust in the telegram and and maybe like the telegram was used as a placeholder for the Forum and now there's no posts on the Forum there's no like discussion available for that document on the Forum so it's like that's the thing I want to avoid is like yeah now now we're not talking to each other anymore like we're like we've separated these spaces and

and that's not how you have like a dialogue yeah I mean to be fair that that uh document's pretty unhinged it makes a couple good points in there it's also like a lot of just it's pretty wild um we issued a note veto vote on it because it's like we're trying to kill something that isn't even on chain yet and there's just a lot of um I don't know it's spammy um and it's just not the this is not uh the way the governance should be done so like for me as on the other side of this like if we go fully to the other end of the spectrum like this is also not okay

to do things like this where you're coming in and trying to kill an ongoing discussion that is being had between a bunch of the core team and the surrounding entities around the Hub and the community before anything can actually be discussed worked out and adjusted so um and you know fortunately that's like very much the leading vote it seems to be consensus that that's like not a cool way to do things so I hope we can avoid that in the future foreign yeah I think this is like one of the probably one of the core issues with governance is like what is the proper form and I feel like um the form is wherever people want to

have those discussions and so uh it's it's unfortunate that you know some people want to have those discussions on telegram because that's how they that's how they want to you know like that is the form where they feel more most comfortable to have conversations and then some people are more comfortable and like having like long form uh thoughts and like formulating long-form uh thoughts into a forum post and um yeah I mean like then it's down to like like it said right it's down to community leaders and Community sort of like managers uh to um to sift through that stuff and then you know extract the the nuggets and

make it into a more like archival form um I don't know that we're gonna come to consensus around you know what is the right place to be having these conversations they're going to happen wherever people are having them you know like if I'm having a conversation in my backyard uh about this stuff and like we come to some realization like it's too bad it didn't happen on the Forum but that's just that's just where the conversation happens to have happened yeah um yeah let's uh let's we're running pretty long here I think we're gonna try to go to an hour and a half if you guys are all up for it but I do want to talk about the uh issuance that has been one big point of concern and certainly a point of concern of this counter proposal um lots of folks also on the forums and

on Twitter have been talking about the issuance claiming that it dilutes Adam holders that the you know the atom holder is effectively paying a tax some have also you know suggested that the ICF should and certainly people in this chat uh have been talking about this as well that the ICF should front uh some of the the financing here because the ICF is sitting on a significant amount of of money maybe starting on the community side uh for this one um can you summarize uh a little bit of the conversation around uh the issuance and what are the one of the main points of concern

yeah I mean people hate taxes I mean that's um you know so anytime anyone says that it's like sends up the flags and you know um people don't like being deluded either um though I'm not convinced that this is like effectively dilution I mean to some extent absolutely like there is an element of that you can't deny that like putting a large amount of tokens into a treasury which uh were not previously there and have to be kind of created there is a form of dilution there but um you know the real question is I I mean inflation is kind of delusionary too right like the people who have more are going to receive more inflation than those who have less so

it's like yeah we could look at this in a number of different ways the the question is really where do we want to put those resources um and I think that there's a balance between like what is the right thing which is putting funding towards building while also keeping enough inflationary rewards there to like keep people happy on a gradual scale so it's like I see the tail issuance thing if that's like a sticking point like just ditch it you know it's not it's not a big enough thing to like stick up an entire project on in an entire overhaul so I think it's like if if we're going to look at okay if the community really really wants this and it's not super super important to this like maybe we just go great that's something that

we're willing to give up and and we recognize that's really important to people and you know c'est la vie tricky any response tricky I'll let you go yeah um I think it's it's a tough it's a tough one you know I think you ask yourself like is the main issue um with these atom tokens being you know minted that they're going to a treasury and not necessarily the community pool um I think it's you know the end game I think is pretty good you know at the end of the day we don't want there to be much inflation on Adam and we can use all these other entertained secured

zones that are you know having a coin that's minted and inflated to you know supplement that and at the end of the day if the treasury is doing its job right The Interchange secured zones that are giving us these tokens won't be you know quote unquote you know coins they will be uh valuable tokens that will still hold value that whether you want to sell them or keep them and continue to you know build up your portfolio I don't think that it's gonna be as bad as uh some people think it's gonna be um I think that they're just you know used to their APR they're getting on Adam and it's a safe investment to you know stake and just you know get yield um but I think this just kind of turns

that up on its head where we're not you know worried about inflating our coin to a million um we're gonna use inflation to fund a war chest to really uh make it worth the atom holders time uh to stake to be a part of the cosmos Community um and invest in these consumer chains um so I think that um there's some negotiation to be had I think that you know like these numbers that were put out there put out there for a reason but they're not set in stone you know I think that people just have to come with a cohesive argument and the reasons why and we can make that happen but one thing I do want to point out about that uh prop that they put up uh you can definitely confirm that uh atom holders are undercover uh Bitcoin Max these

because it says read it all or stay poor so that was uh that was at least one funny part about that that uh proposal cool I'll I'll respond um so the yeah there's one kind of point about the treasury and like the mental model around the treasury that I think is pretty important that I've been trying to promote but maybe isn't like fully socialized and that's that like these the tokens that are in the treasury are like that is not part of the float like that's not part of the

the tokens that are available for public trading like so um so that's not uh you know going to have the same price impact as just dumping them onto the market um and not only that but these are tokens that are in control of the cosmos community and ultimately of the atom holder So Adam holders can veto anything that the treasury is doing um and and so that and that means that they could just hold on to them you know indefinitely uh if the cosmos Hub chooses to do so um the treasury is like at he's

discretionary uh uh resources that can be deployed by the cosmos Hub community um and uh you know it's important to have a substantial treasury for a number of reasons um one is uh that I mean it it's and there's definitely a symbolic element that's I think not unimportant um but there's also just um you know there's there's ways to use the the tragedy um that that don't even dilute um atom holders at the end of the day um

so you can you can borrow against it use uh use it as collateral um and uh it's really just resources available for deployment um and that also means available for non-deployment um so it is pretty different than uh you know issue incentive media sale um that's not kind of what's Happening Here one of the reasons that one of the other reasons this is important is the issuance model change so we're radically reducing issuance and um

and that means that uh the community pool is not going to be receiving the same kind of level of uh atom rewards from from issuance and so we kind of need to think about uh the resources required uh at the beginning to like to achieve this project that we're that we're endeavoring together um and and so basically like the the purpose is to jump start this this economic Loop um we want Adam

going to be the currency in order for Adam to be the preferred Reserve currency you need Adam you know to to kind of integrate into the larger ecosystem and we want to do that in a way that's always uh you know High Roi for the the cosmos Hub and um and you know do it in the kind of most like precise and strategic way possible and so that's where you know the allocator comes in I guess one last Point um the or like I've definitely been trying to collect

and and understand all the the kind of community feedback Community views um been talking to tozaki and a bunch of the other paper authors like we hear the community and like and I think we're gonna we're gonna try to make some adjustments that like that really uh kind of address the the key questions um the tail issuance for instance um it was always kind of the intention that like the treasury can deploy resources as it sees fit and so like directing those resources back to the distribution module stickers and validators like always on those kind of always on the table but like we're gonna make that a little more explicit like

that could be a parameter in the system where like atom holders can choose to to direct the tail issuance I think that's like totally fair and you know kind of spelling that out more explicitly like I think satisfies a lot of people's concerns um and then the uh we're also talking about um you know a kind of staged uh checkpoint like tranching system that that gives uh Adam holders kind of additional confidence um and um and we yeah just doesn't maybe do it all in one go but but allows some some additional checks

to to be put in place for um for the community to kind of like see that things are are going the way that they expect oh did you have anything to add here yeah one final point just to add to what Sam was saying and responding to your point that tricky made about the community pool I think I think this was mentioned earlier like why isn't this these dragons going to the community pool um I think the best way to understand it is to look at kind of what happened in prop 72 where these uh tokens were um allocated to a multi-sect to go and conduct Business Development efforts on

behalf of the Hub in the future we imagine more of these efforts being required uh in particularly when these allocator Dows come come live um and the idea with the council system is really to make these this type of effort become more accountable and transparent to atom folders as a whole so in fact uh you know if the intent of moving into the community pool is to give more oversight um that is actually what is being done by the council system it's it you know it's it's making uh um creating a system where we can more efficiently deploy deploy Capital to

these smaller groups but also have the oversight and checks and balances from atom holders very good well I I think I think we're coming to some sort of you know resolution here uh you know this wasn't the fight I was expecting it to be but that's good we're all friends here sorry to disappoint Ed no I was I was I was actually like following the discussion and in the in the telegram group and it seems that people in the telegram group are also watching this and uh and pleasantly surprised that this has been a constructive conversation um but uh and I'm also pleasantly surprised now of course I knew that I

knew we were going to be you know throwing throwing balls at each other um but yeah maybe some of the points here maybe just to kind of summarize um you know one one thing that I've taken away from this and that I I hope people have also taken away from this is that this is a signaling proposal uh that the white paper as it was written and also the Forum posts and all the conversations were meant to you know like really spark a conversation and and you basically do what we're doing now and although that maybe that wasn't so obvious to everyone it certainly wasn't obvious to me uh that is in fact the case and you know all these discussions are actually helpful in um in moving uh and move things forward and arriving at

a a a new design for the for the customers have that um aligns the community aligns stakeholders Alliance token holders and Developers so that for me is like a big takeaway here um Kevin tricky udit Sam uh what are your main takeaways uh maybe starting um from my from my left Kevin yeah I mean the thing that I am just happier to hear is is more like on the community control side of things I think generally speaking I do believe that smaller groups of professionals are like a more efficient machine for this kind of activity because they can actually go out make

the contacts like I work on Business Development for Juno like we have a very small very small like group of people about nine of us or ten of us who who go out and like do the leg work to create these relationships and get applications building I think the same thing needs to exist for the Hub you know the biggest thing is just that we wanted to know that the community retains control over the councils and the funding and that they always have veto power every step along the way because it's great to have freedom we just want to be able to hit the abort button if something goes haywire and that's what gives like me confidence to go okay good I know that the people who are staking with us are

going to be happy because they can vote and still have a stay at least in how the machine which is working functions so I I think that's really important that atom holders can veto the treasury and you know probably the other point is just that I I see this as putting more control in in the hands of atom holders now and honestly less power into the hands of the ICF which I think is a good thing you know the ICF does need to work on its transparency I know that they're actively working towards that um and you know I think we'd all like to see that happening faster but the delegation policy and things like that that's great um and I I want to see more changes on

that but I think this is a great way to like take a lot of that stuff that was opaque and not visible to voters and stakers and put it more into the public eye and now give veto power like before we could never veto the ICF like it just was there like unless you went through some sort of crazy fork or something so now we have like potentially a mechanism to determine and and have power over the people who are making these decisions and you know veto along the way which I think is always a good check and balance yeah you know I agree I think uh yeah uh Adam it's it's crazy we now have a a

vision for Adam uh that leads to Value accrual and the whole item holders are still in control every step of the way um I think it's great that we have something to argue over um for what what's what's our next step forward rather than wondering you know what is our next step forward um and I think I just want to say you know if you're don't be paralyzed by fear or uncertainty around this prop if you don't understand it uh get in the the forums ask questions read other comments um I think that once you start to understand this more there you'll realize that there's a lot that you're going to agree with um that's really cool and there's a lot of opportunity but maybe there's a few things that you know you'd like to see changed or talk more about and I think

it's obvious and it's been expressed here that you know that's uh that's you know a possibility not everything's set in stone um so not only uh do we have this you know great opportunity you know in front of us but we also have an opportunity to shape it together as a community um to make sure it's something we all can get behind in support um so yeah I'm just excited for uh the next steps around them and you know to see what comes out of the next version of the the paper once we take some feedback from the community as well yeah uh I think this is a pretty bold vision for Adam and um you know what gives me the most hope is actually to see like the extreme like vibrant discussion that's going on uh around this uh white paper and I think

one of the things that is extremely important for this successive uh what's been proposed here is you know robust confidence and the fact that we are seeing this much deliberation happening about the white paper gives me a lot of hope that we will be able to put in a vote into place the type of governance system and the types of checks and balances we need for the successful delivery and execution um of this of this project um so yeah that's that's my main takeaway hopefully and if you zoom out at the the kind of primary critiques that the community is having about the paper you know issuance and control um like the

those are actually the level of discussion that I think the community should be having like fiscal responsibility like this is you know how are we thinking about spending at the highest level um control like who are the actors doing this like how is this structured like these are precisely the things of the community like should be focused on and so like that that also makes me really happy that like we're working at the right level now and um and the the paper also suggests you know that that there should be more kind of avenues for input and like and constructive discussion that that the community has to like to really

you know help build this thing um and so I I'm super excited to see to see this community council Forum at like there's so many you know super articulate and well-informed people that that are like contributing this conversation and like you know I'm I'm excited to kind of invite them in to to collaborate on this yeah well thank you I'm also very uh very bullish on on this whole thing generally I think um you know I think we are heading towards a new era for Cosmos I I've you know I've said before that I think that

there are like epochs of the the cosmos and Adam ecosystem and certainly pre-ivce was one Epoch and you know there's been some amount of uh Innovation happening you know since IBC was launched and we've seen sort of a Cambrian explosion of applications and and and and um and Innovations at the at the layer one level but also the smart contract level with cosmoasm and things of this nature and I think that now with the Hub becoming um a a real Force for um building ecosystem like very important

infrastructure for the ecosystem and that's secured by the cosmos Hub I think is uh just like a net win for everyone and I'm also very um bullish and you know excited to see uh other uh other chains in in the interchain ecosystem have different approaches to this so you know osmosis certainly has a different approach and for those of you watching uh Sunny will be here on the podcast on a live stream on Thursday so subscribe to get notified where that comes out um but yeah we'll we'll be talking about the osmosis approach and how it's different from the cosmos power approach but I think that all of the all of these things sort of lifts all boats right

like the the all these experiments are are rising the tide for the interchain and um you know giving a um sort of raising the profile of IBC the cosmos SDK and the the cosmos technology stack as a whole which is uh I think you know the the stack that we all agree um is very well positioned to uh dominate a lot of the blockchain ecosystem in the coming years um I want to thank all you for taking the time to be here we've gone a little long but uh I think everybody here in the live stream uh greatly appreciate it's you being a part of this conversation and I look forward to continuing the conversation on Twitter and wherever we find you please consider subscribing to the interop to get

notified of new episodes every week we typically do podcasts live streams on Thursdays this was a special episode but we'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming on Thursday uh also be sure to check out epicenter my other podcast where we'll be interviewing Zeki and Ethan tomorrow so if you look up epicenter podcast on on YouTube uh please subscribe there and we'll have an episode with Zeki and um Ethan where we dive into the vision for Adam 2.0 that's tomorrow thanks so much and look forward to seeing you again very soon