Arthur Hayes on Why Tariffs Will Be Good for Bitcoin and Crypto

Transcript

money, is, being, printed, it, will, be printed, powell, told, you, it's, going to, be printed, at, the, last, press, conference, he says, tra, t tariffs, are, transitory, i, know Bitcoin, has, done, pretty, pretty, poorly alongside, the, NASDAQ, and, the, S&P, and, a lot, of, other, global, stock, indices, but, I think, that's, just, you, know, investors, not really, appreciating, that, this, is, a, fiat liquidity, bonanza, that's, about, to, happen i, think, Bitcoin, will, decouple, from, these and, stock, indices, and, trade, alongside gold, and, really, reflate, higher, as, the money, supply, globally, goes higher, hi, everyone, welcome, to, Unchained your, no, hype, resource, for, all, things crypto, i'm, your, host, Laura, Shen, we, are now, featuring, quotes, from, listeners, on

this, show, today, we, have, one, from, Ella Mia, on, X, responding, to, my, interview, with Dragonfly, partner, Omar, Kanji, about Circle's, IPO, filing, elma, writes, quote, $5 billion, valuation, and, regulation, risks this, will, be, an, interesting, ride, if you'd, like, your, comment, featured, write, a review, of, the, podcast, overall, or, leave, a comment, on, our, video, on, YouTube, or, X this, is, the, April, 8th, 2025, episode, of Unchained, big, news, unchained, just launched, a, brand, new, newsletter, Bits, and Bips, just, like, this, podcast, it's, all about, how, crypto, and, macro, collide, one basis, point, at, a, time, get, expert analysis, market, insights, and, the, biggest stories, shaping, both, worlds, straight, to your, inbox, subscribe, now, for, free, at

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carefully, consider, the, extreme, risks associated, with, crypto, before investing, today's, guest, is, Arthur, Hayes CIO, of, Maelstrom, welcome, Arthur, hi we're, recording, on, Thursday, April, 3rd the, day, after, Trump, announced, his liberation, day, tariffs, these, ended, up being, 10%, as, a, baseline, on, all, imports and, then, certain, countries, that, the White, House, considers, bad, actors, have higher, rates, so, for, instance, uh, duties on, Japan, are, 24%, on, the, EU, 20%, China will, have, a, tariff, of, 54%, um, Canada, and Mexico, will, likely, have, something, around 25%, i, have, seen, such, a, wide, range, of assessments, on, this, on, my, timeline

there's, the, protariff, side, pointing, to the, fact, that, now, the, yield, on, the 10-year, Treasury, is, down, to, just, a, bit over, 4%, um, on, inauguration, day, they, were at, like, about, 4.6%, the, critics, are saying, this, is, wrecking, the, economy, um they're, not, even, the, calculations, aren't even, based, on, like, existing, actual tariffs, but, just, uh, trade, imbalances like, people, are, laughing, at, how, they've calculated, this, others, are, saying manufacturing, is, just, not, really, kind, of come, back, here, to, the, US, on, the, timeline that, that, Trump, would, want, and, is, also even, not, like, feasible, necessarily, for, a lot, of, items, and, um, I, saw, one, other interesting, take, which, was, that, Trump's tariffs, do, not, take, into, account, the digital, goods, that, are, being, imported and, exported, i, was, wondering, for, your

take, what, do, you, think, are, tariffs, good bad, you, know, overall, and, why, do, you think, that, and, then, who, do, you, think will, be, the, winners, and, losers, in, this tariff, war, so, I, first, try, to, remove, any sort, of, moralistic, judgment, on, any, sort of, economic, policy, and, just, adapt, and try, to, make, money, i, think, when, you, get this, is, it, good, or, is, it, bad, for, whom it's, all, relative, so, instead, of, getting all, worked, up, about, it, just, try, to figure, out, what's, going, on, and, adjust your, portfolio, accordingly, so, I, think it's, quite, simple, trump, in, 2016, and Trump, in, 2024, made, the, same, pretty, much promise, which, was, in, his, worldview, the United, States, is, getting, ripped, off, by

the, rest, of, the, world, because, there's this, massive, current, account, deficit mostly, in, tradable, goods, that, the, United States, is, running, and, they're, opening, up their, markets, and, allowing, people, to dump, their, their, cheap, goods, and, so, he believes, that, it's, his, job, to, reverse that, uh, that, chart, and, I, posted, a, chart in, my, recent, essay, the, BBC, and, it, has the, current, account, balance, which, is, a good, proxy, for, tradable, goods, balance and, the, reciprocal, of, that, which, is, the financial, account, but, I'll, get, to, that in, a, minute, so, if, Trump, really, wants, to get, this, chart, to, go, from, I, think, it's minus, a, few, trillion, dollars, whatever, it is, per, year, to, zero, or, credibly, show, the American, voting, public, that, he, is, um making, good, on, his, campaign, promise, and

this, chart, is, zooming, back, towards, zero then, what, he, has, just, done, is, exactly what, he, should, do, um, in, terms, of, how, he would, go, about, rectifying, this, imbalance taking, the, trade, deficit, saying, okay, I'm going, to, I, forgot, the, exact, formula divide, by, some, number, I, gave, you, a discount, and, there's, this, massive, number right, obviously, China, has, one, of, the biggest, because, of, course, China, runs, the largest, export, surplus, globally, and, has done, pretty, much, since, they, joined, the WTO, in, 2001, so, that's, the, goal, if, you're going, to, try, to, reverse, these, imbalances this, is, exactly, what, you, should, do however, on, the, other, side, for, all, the dollars, that, people, in, the, world, China Japan, earn, because, they, want, to, keep

their, currencies, undervalued, they, don't take, those, dollars, convert, them, back, to yuan, for, example, and, then, do, stuff internally, they, take, those, dollars, and they, buy, things, in, the, United, States financial, markets, notably, US, treasuries and, US, stocks, and, so, the, foreigners, who have, earned, all, these, earnings, selling things, to, America, take, those, earnings and, finance, the, US, government, and finance, American, tech, and, stock exceptionalism, um, which, is, why, the, US markets, have, outperformed, massively, the rest, of, the, world, over, the, past, 20, or, 30 years, and, the, Treasury, yield, even, at four, something%, is, marginally, lower, than it, was, about, 30, years, ago, even, though the, total, stock, of, debt, is, up, over, 7x, so this, is, the, trade, he's, trying, to, reverse these, things, um, the, good, things, he's

telling, the, American, people, I'm, going, to bring, you, back, really, good, jobs especially, for, people, who, don't, have, a university, degree, however, given, that, the United, States, government, is, financed externally, and, it's, foreigners, who, are you, know, levitating, the, stock, market keeping, yields, low, the, converse, of, a shrinking, current, account, balance, is, a shrinking, financial, account, balance, and the, Chinese, the, Japanese, the, Germans everyone, else, around, the, world, will, not be, buying, stocks, and, treasuries, because they, don't, have, the, earnings, from, the dollars, from, importing, things, into exporting, things, to, the, United, States, so again, I, think, it's, quite, simple, um, it makes, uh, it, makes, a, lot, of, sense, what, he did, whether, or, not, you, think, it's, good or, bad, is, kind, of, irrelevant, um, so that's, sort, of, my, take, on, uh, liberation day, if, you, want, to, call, it, that, well, I

you, know, I'm, curious, about, the, way, you kind, of, sidestep, the, the, question because, you're, clearly, so, knowledgeable about, um, you, know, macro, and, and, just generally, like, you, know, how, all, these things, works, and, I, am, surprised, that, you don't, necessarily, have, an, opinion, on, at least, let's, just, speak, for, the, US, we're both, Americans, i, know, you, don't, live here, anymore, but, as, an, American, like, do you, like, if, you, were, president, do, you think, that, what, he's, his, goal, here, is, a good, goal, it, depends, on, who, you, want, to get, elected, by, right, so, Trump's, voter base, and, I'm, very, I'm, using, averages, and maybe, you, can, push, back, on, if, you, see some, different, statistics, the, statistic that, I, saw, was, that, approximately, 50ish or, a, little, bit, more, than, 50%, of, people who, made, over, $100,000, and, exit, polls, on

average, voted, for, Camala, Harris, so, we can, you, know, make, a, bold, statement, rich people, voted, for, the, Democrats, um, and poor, people, voted, for, Trump, right, so what, is, a, big, delineation, between, rich and, poor, in, the, United, States, obviously university, degree, what, type, of, things, do you, do, with, a, university, degree knowledge, work, you, know, you, work, with your, mind, you're, in, tech, you're, in financial, services, you're, an, accountant you're, a, lawyer, you, know, those, sort, of things, what, do, you, do, without, a, college degree, you, do, some, sort, of, manual, type labor, or, you, used, to, right, you, worked, in a, factory, you, made, cars, those, sorts, of things, right, so, what, types, of, jobs, have done, very, well, over, the, last, 30, 40, years and, what, types, of, jobs, did, very, poorly those, with, college, degrees, those, who

hold, financial, assets, have, done, very well, over, the, last, you, know, the globalization, right, you, bring, in, a billion, workers, who, work, really, really cheap, in, China, you, depress, wages, in, the United, States, corporate, institutions, say "Oh, well, I, have, an, expensive, American worker, or, a, cheap, Chinese, one, i, move, my factory, to, China, my, profit, margin, goes up, and, then, I, do, a, stock, buyback, and give, all, my, money, back, to, the shareholders, right, and, so, then, people with, stocks, have, done, very, very, well people, who, have, don't, own, stocks, who don't, have, a, university, degree, who, used to, work, in, a, factory, have, not, done, very very, well, over, the, last, 40, years, so, the Democrats, I'm, making, very, blatant generalizations, here, campaign, on, hey rich, educated, person, progressive whatever, I'm, your, person, elect, me, right

and, so, and, Bill, Clinton, was, a, Democrat he's, the, one, who, let, China, into, the, WTO and, essentially, tariffree, access, to America, in, 2001, Donald, Trump, said, "Oh there's, this, massive, part, of, America that's, left, behind, i'm, going, to, campaign for, them, i'm, going, to, bring, back manufacturing, jobs, um, the, good, job, the job, that, lets, you, you, know, have, a, family blah, blah, blah, middle, class, lifestyle all, that, all, that, sort, of, jazz.", Right so, you, have, these, two, opposing worldviews, again, I'm, making, very, big generalizations, and, averages, here, and, so that, makes, sense, of, what, Trump's, policy is, okay, if, that's, the, person, who, voted for, him, and, carried, him, to, the, White House, in, 2026, 2016, and, 2024, this, policy is, what, they, need, if, you're, a, Democrat

who, may, who, gets, large, campaign donations, and, essentially, is, wealthier people, who, are, voting, for, you, who, own stocks, who, work, in, sort, of, a, corporate environment, a, white, collar, job, then, you know, the, status, quo, works, for, you, and, so really, it's, just, a, question, of, which side, wins, and, which, side, is, more, ausive in, their, demands, to, change, or, keep, the status, quo, and, so, that's, sort, of, how that's, the, lens, that, I, look, at, it there's, no, such, thing, as, bad, or, good, for whom, right, so, I, I, try, to, remove, this, oh it's, bad, good, or, bad, for, America america's, a, big, place, you, know, 400 million, people, there's, different different, views, whether, uh, on, other, end of, the, spectrum, on, each, end, of, the spectrum, yeah, that's, true, that's, true and, I, know, that, generally, when, it, comes

to, crypto, the, main, thing, that, you, look at, is, um, the, money, supply, and, you, said prior, to, Liberation, Day, that, you, didn't think, that, high, tariffs, would, cause Federal, Reserve, Chair, JPL, to, pull, back on, quantitative, easing, correct, um, you know, generally, Trump, and, Pal, have, had kind, of, a, rocky, relationship, so, I wondered, you, know, what, you, thought, now that, it's, happened, and, then, you, know what, the, knock-on, effect, would, be, for crypto, so, in, a, recent, essay, that, I published, called, the, the, BBC, I essentially, talked, a, lot, about, fiscal dominance, and, I, gave, a, a, funny, little satirical, interplay, between, uh, Bessant and, Powell, but, essentially, the, point, was and, the, graphic, was, hilarious, too the, point, is, as, a, Federal, Reserve

chairman, yes, supposedly, you're, this, you know, steward, of, the, American, dollar, keep inflation, low, unemployment, low, those sorts, of, things, but, in, reality, you're another, arm, of, the, government, and, the government, needs, to, get, funded, at, an affordable, price, and, therefore, you, will do, what, is, needed, as, a, Federal, Reserve chairman, to, make, sure, that, happens, and, I pointed, out, a, very, seminal, speech, by former, Fed, chairperson, Arthur, Burns, from 1979, that, he, gave, in, Yugoslavia, called the, anguish, of, central, banking, and, if you, read, that, speech, and, you, think, about the, issues, that, people, are, concerned about, today, within, America, and, and, the world, economy, you'd, say, "Wow, it, looks kind, of, like, the, same, thing.", And, his point, essentially, was, that, the, the politicians, and, the, government, and, the populace, have, adopted, this, stance, that the, government, can, solve, all, your

problems, the, only, way, government, solves problems, is, spending, money, and, therefore you, embed, an, inflationary, impulse, into the, bedrock, of, de, democratic, society like, America, and, therefore, as, a, Federal Reserve, chairman, while, you, might, believe that, you, should, be, squatchching inflation, or, tightening, the, monetary, uh conditions, sufficiently, to, eradicate inflation, what, you, really, need, to, do, is make, sure, that, the, people, get, the policies, that, they, voted, for, which, is inflation, essentially, if, you, want, the government, to, have, all, these, sorts, of programs, and, back, in, the, 70s, it, was, New Deal, era, grand, society, type, things, today it's, woke, inclusion, DEI, all, those, sorts of, stuff, right, uh, same, thing, different nomenclature, and, so, Arthur, Burns, is saying, yes, I, was, a, Fed, chair, person, at

any, point, I, could, have, stopped, inflation but, I, couldn't, because, my, job, really, was to, make, sure, that, the, government, was funded, now, Paul, is, in, the, same, sort, of situation, here, right, what, he, should, be doing, is, tightening, monetary, supply, the US, economy, is, growing, very, well, stocks are, I, mean, stocks, are, down, 10%, 15% whatever, but, they're, at, all-time, highs um, record, wealth, for, those, who, own financial, assets, unemployment, it's, at four, something, percent, record, all-time lows, why, is, he, reducing, the, pace, of quantitative, tight, quantitative tightening, why, is, did, he, cut, rates, um, in September, and, December, of, of, last, year he, didn't, need, to, the, US, economy, is perfectly, fine, real, GDP, growth, was growing, above, trend, but, he, did, it because, there's, a, $36, trillion, pile, of

debt, that's, growing, exponentially, the interest, cost, in, the, debt, is, growing exponentially, and, the, main, inelastic buyers, China, Japan, Germany, these exporters, that, that, Trump, has, basically said, take, your, things, and, go, home, or build, your, factory, in, America, therefore you, don't, earn, any, more, dollars therefore, you, can't, buy, any, more treasuries, then, if, they're, not, buying then, the, Fed, or, the, banks, have, to, buy and, so, Paul, you, know, he, said, his, piece he, tried, to, be, the, whole, vulker, or, you know, the, modern, day, equivalent, but, in reality, he's, just, another, government hack, and, he, needs, to, print, the, money, and he, basically, said, that, at, his, last, press conference, i'm, reducing, QT, why, reducing QT, economy, is, fine, i, might, do, QE, for treasuries, let, the, mortgage, back securities, run, off, take, the, proceeds, buy treasuries, and, then, he, stated, that, when

asked, uh, my, base, case, is, trans, tariffs inflationary, impact, is, transitory, the fact, that, even, use, that, word, is hilarious, he, got, so, torched, on, the, last time, he, used, that, in, 2022, when, inflation spiked, in, a, transitory, manner, to, the 40-year, highs, however, that, just, tells you, that, his, bias, is, easing, his, bias, is let's, provide, money, to, the, Treasury market, so, that, Besson, and, Trump, or whoever, is, in, charge, can, do, the, policy that, they, want, to, do, and, I, know, people think, that, Trump, is, trying, to, sort, of you, know, do, austerity, but, his, plan, is from, a, 7%, deficit, to, a, 3%, deficit, his plan, is, not, to, go, to, a, surplus, his, plan is, not, to, on, a, net, basis, retire, Treasury debt, he's, going, to, inflate, it, away, by

growing, nominal, GDP, growth, faster, than the, rate, at, the, deficit, yes, however, this is, not, a, Argentinian, style, Yavier, MLE i'm, going, to, you, know, have, GDP, crash, by four, or, five%, because, I'm, removing, this credit, from, the, system, so, I, think, again money, is, being, printed, it, will, be printed, powell, told, you, it's, going to, be printed, at, the, last, press, conference, he says, tariffs, are, transitory, i, know Bitcoin, has, done, pretty, pretty, poorly alongside, the, NASDAQ, and, the, S&P, and, a lot, of, other, global, stock, indices, but, I think, that's, just, you, know, investors, not really, appreciating, that, this, is, a, fiat liquidity, bonanza, that's, about, to, happen i, think, Bitcoin, will, decouple, from, these and, stock, indices, and, trade, alongside

gold, and, really, reflate, higher, as, the money, supply, globally, goes, higher yeah, so, I, did, also, see, in, that, same newsletter, you, said, "If, I, had, to, place, a bet, on, whether, I, thought, Bitcoin, would hit 76,500, or, 110,000, first, I, would, bet, on the, latter.", So, how, are, you, coming, up with, these, numbers, and, I, know, you, wrote that, before, liberation, day, so, do, you still, hold, that, opinion, yes, I, still, hold that, opinion, so, 76,500, that's, the, low that, we, reached, in, in, March, um, the, local low, after, we, broke, through, 70,000, in November, of, last, year, 110,000, that's, the the, new, all-time, high, that, we, reached, on January, 20th, right, as, Trump, was, being inaugurated, and, so, I, think, that, we, take out, that, next, all-time, high, and, and

Bitcoin, continues, to, do, very, very, well the, stock, market, who, knows, right, i'm, not uh, I, don't, really, do, stons, it's, uh, it's hard, um, company, earnings, evaluations, and all, that, kind, of, [ __ ], right, all, I, focus on, is, global, liquidity, i, know, that Bitcoin, performs, very, very, well, in, a deflationary, bust, which, is, what, could happen, in, this, situation, and, that, the monetary, authorities, in, the, United States, and, the, rest, of, the, world, will provide, will, provide, financial accommodation, to, make, sure, the governments, get, funded so, I, saw, that, on, poly, market, well actually, this, was, yesterday, when, I, wrote this, question, but, um, at, that, time, poly market, traders, were, saying, that, they, saw a, 49%, chance, of, a, recession, in, the, US, in 2025, and, I, wondered, what, you, thought, of

that, and, if, we, do, end, up, in, a, recession what, do, you, think, would, be, like, the likely, cause, or, causes, i, mean, it's, could be, a, bunch, of, government, workers, are fired, there's, a, knock-on, effect, of, of spending, maybe, Elon's, Doge, cuts, a, bunch of, of, waste, or, fraud, or, government programs, maybe, this, tariffing, causes, a lot, of, companies, to, retrench, i, don't know, i, don't, really, think, because, all, I care, about, is, global, liquidity, a recession, in, my, mind, is, just, another, way for, you, know, Powell, and, his, cohorts people, at, other, central, banks, to basically, stand, up, on, the, podium, and, say "Oh, recession, therefore, I, must, print money.", So, great, if, everyone, thinks there's, going to, be, a, recession regardless, of, whether, that, happens, or not, it's, just, another, excuse, for, a

central, banker, to, get, up, on, the, podium and, say, "Oh, the, economy, is, weak therefore, I, must, print, money, because that, is, the, Keynesian, economic, theory that, I, subscribe, to.", But, do, you, think it, is, likely, or, or, what, odds, would, you give, it, i, I, don't, know, i, have, no, [ __ ] idea, doesn't, matter okay, well, actually, so, circling, back, to the, reason, that, Trump's, Trump, wants, to do, the, tariff, or, you, know, is, doing, the tariffs, um, do, you, think, he, actually, can bring, manufacturing, back, to, the, US possibly, i, don't, think, it's, going, to happen, on, a, timeline, that's, electorally feasible, which, is, why, I, believe, that, he has, to, go, hard, and, fast, basically, by, now and, things, have, to, look, better, going

into, the, end, of, the, year, because, you know, obviously, he, doesn't, have, to, get reelected, but, those, who, support, him, all have, political, careers, that, they, want, to continue, after, 2028, or, 2026, and therefore, the, Republicans, need, to, see some, green, shoots, i, said, it, was, going, to get, China, to, build, manufacturing, we punished, China, and, guess, what, you, know Alibaba, is, building, a, big, [ __ ] factory, in, Ohio, right, and, he's, going, to point, here, and, there, and, yes, I'm, sure, in aggregate, maybe, the, little, tick, up, is, a little, just, a, little, dot, on, the, chart but, in, the, media, he's, going to, play, it up, and, he's, going, to, point, to, all, these different, companies, who've, who've contractedly, oblig, or, basically, said they're, going, to, build, something, it won't, be, built, in, the, next, 12, months, or

not, probably, in, the, next, 24, 48, months but, he, just, is, going, to, point, to, yes, I had, a, press, conference, with, so, and, so major, global, CEO, and, they, said, they're building, a, factory, here, and, she, said she's, building, a, factory, there, right, and that's, what, he's, going, to, want, to, show the, American, public, as, to, this, is, why there, is, this, pain, in, the, stock, market in, the, first, half, of, the, year, this, is why, it's, going, to, get, better, um, going forward, and, this, is, why, you, should, vote for, XYZ, person, in, this, congressional, or senatorial, district, yeah, I, mean, for, sure the, the, timeline, thing, is, is, a, big question, but, I'm, sure, you, saw, he, has been, floating, the, notion, that, he, might try, to, go, for, a, third, term, so, I, don't believe, that, yeah, I, would, like, to, not

believe, that, so, hopefully, hopefully, that won't, happen, um, let's, actually, switch back, to, Bitcoin, i, know, you're, not, a, fan of, the, strategic, Bitcoin, reserve, why, not so, I, think, anytime, a, government, holds something, they, can, sell, it, so, everyone always, freaks, out, about, XYZ, government holds, so, much, Bitcoin, are, they, going, to sell, are, they, not, going, to, sell, are, they going, to, market, order, dump, it, are, they going, to, do, you, know, how, are, they, going to, do, do, these, things, so, if, people support, governments, globally, amassing these, stockpiles, of, Bitcoin, when, the politics, change, and, the, politics, always change, it's, uh, can't, really, predict these, things, then, from, euphoria, we're going, to, switch, to, fear, of, what's, going to, happen, when, are, they, going, to, dump these, things, so, why, if, we, know, this, is going, to, happen, why, are, we, advocating

for, this, policy, and, then, I, think, the second, thing, is, is, not, that, I, don't think, I, don't, like, it, it's, more, I, think people, unrealistic, what, people, think, in their, minds, is, "Oh, the, government's going, to, issue, some, bonds, print, some money, and, then, they're, going, to, go, and they're, going, to, buy, crypto, and, put, it on, their, balance, sheet, because, most, of the, major, governments, in, the, world, are deficit, countries, or, the, largest, ones, in the, United, States, that, people, are, always looking, at, it's, a, deficit, country, they have, to, print, something, to, buy, Bitcoin it's, not, like, they, have, a, bunch, of savings, that, they're, going, to, buy Bitcoin, but, even, still, even, if, you, have a, bunch, of, savings, there's, lots, of people, in, the, in, your, country, that, are probably, poor, or, there's, some, societal problems, that, you, could, be, fixing, and

what, you're, saying, is, "No, no, no, we're not, going, to, do, that, we're, going, to, buy some, Bitcoin, and, some, crypto.", Now, of course, I, love, Bitcoin, i, love, crypto, but I, just, don't, see, the, political, optics, of that, being, uh, very, palatable, to, a, lot, of people, so, you, know, this, bunch, of, crypto bros, are going, to, get, rich, because, you bought, bought, their, bags, and, you've, got you, know, the, poor, poor, person, over, here suffering, and, that, money, could, have, gone to, some, sort, of, enhanced, government program, i, just, don't, think, that's, very smart, politics, and, at, the, end, of, the, day I, think, people, are, being, a, bit delusional, as, to, what's, going, to, happen yes, maybe, if, a, government, had, already seized, Bitcoin, like, the, United, States has, 200,000, Bitcoin, that, they, seize, from other, people, and, they, say, they're, not

going, to, sell, it, while, Trump, is, in office, or, the, Republicans, or, or, whatever fine, i, get, that, but, you, know, Luna, what Trump, said, in, a, in, a, budgetneutral fashion, so, he's, he, isn't, even, going, to print, money, uh, and, basically, buy, Bitcoin so, I, I'm, not, sure, what, people, are, really getting, all, excited, about, i, think, people need, to, think, a, little, bit, more, about, if you, were a, politician, was, this, what, you really, would, do, if, you, had, the, money printer, or, if, you, had, a, pile, of, savings to, to, do, something, with, yeah, yeah, and, at least, this, first, iteration, they're, not acquiring, they're, just, taking, um forfeited, Bitcoin, but, they, are, looking for, budget, neutral, ways, to, acquire, more in, your, recent, newsletter, the, Genie, um so, you, know, as, we, just, said, you, you

don't, necessarily, support, the, US government, proactively, acquiring, Bitcoin but, you, you, kind, of, proposed, something interesting, about, using, Bitcoin, to, pay down, um, US, debt, can, you, walk, through that, idea, so, I, think, at, the, end, of, the day, apart, from, that, one, chart, of rectifying, global, trade, imbalances, Trump and, Besson, and, his, cabinet, need, to reduce, the, value, of, the, dollar, globally they, need, to, value, massively, and, I, think they, will, at, some, point, um, and, you, can do, it, versus, gold, or, I, think, you, can, do it, versus, Bitcoin, you, could, do, it, versus both, but, at, the, end, of, the, day, I, think if, they're, going, to, be, revamping, the global, trade, system, then, the, US, Treasury is, not, going, to, be, the, reserve, asset anymore, it's, going, to, be, gold, i, would love, to, be, Bitcoin, but, most, likely, it'll

be, gold, and, at, that, point, you essentially, needed, to, value, the, stock, of treasuries, versus, the, new, neutral reserve, asset, and, so, I, proposed, a, scheme by, which, you, could, essentially, um, bid, up the, price, of, Bitcoin, and, dollars, by saying, I'm, going, to, issue, fiat, bonds, and buy, Bitcoin, from, people, at, very, very high, prices, and, devalue, the, stock, of treasury, debt, and, sort, of, create, a, sort of, a, a, new, um, global, trading architecture, centered, around, imbalances being, settled, in, Bitcoin, yeah, I, I, find that, interesting, um, so, let's, now, talk about, some, recent, events, that, I, know, are very, much, in, your, wheelhouse, there, was, a big, brewhaha, over, the, jelly, attack, on Hyperlid, and, how, Hyperlid, handled, that

since, you, launched, the, original perpetuals, exchange, I, was, wondering, what your, opinion, was, on, how, Hyperlid overrode, the, oracle, uh, and, even, the, fact that, they're, it's, like, the, oracle, is managed, by, them, that, they, gave, a favorable, price, to, themselves, so, that they, ended, up, closing, out, the, position at, a profit, um, and, also, well, the, reason, they did, that, was, because, it, was, it, was, going to, be, their, own, market, maker, that, would lose, money, so, what, what's, your, opinion on, everything, that, transpired, there, so obviously, I, think, people, need, to recognize, that, you, know, decentralization is, a, pipe, dream, in, a, lot, of, these projects, and, I, think, we, were, very, well situated, as, to, where, Hyperlid, stands, on that, i'm, not, really, deep, into, their, tech

or, not, but, looks, like, a, duck, quacks, like a, duck, is, probably, a, duck, kind, of, thing yeah, apparently, they, made, the, decision in, 2, minutes, and, I, saw, some, supporters saying, that, "Oh, but, there, was, like, a real, quote, unquote, vote, and, saying, they just, acted, quickly, and, everyone, was, like yeah, it's, because, it's, centralized.", But anyway, so, I, I, think, you, know, obviously at, BitMX, we, dealt, with, a, lot, of, the, same issues, on, you, have, a, high, leverage product, you, have, an, illquid, contract, and you, have, this, big, pool, of, money, that's there, to, essentially, protect, people, when traders, go, bankrupt, obviously, people, are going, to, start, to, try, to, game, that system, so, I, just, think, that, um, the developers, and, those, in, charge, of Hyperlquid, probably, just, need, to, read

the, exchange, docs, of, every, other, major sex, that, just, copied, the, BitMX, model, and they, probably, this, will, never, happen again, because, we, face, all, the, same issues, of, how, do, you, you, know dramatically, reduce, leverage, as, people get, larger, positions, uh, how, do, you liquidate, people, in, an, aggressive fashion, so, that, the, the, liquidation, fund doesn't, lose, any, money, i, think, they probably, need, to, review, their, margin policies, a, bit, more, carefully, and, then you, know, these, smacks, of, centralization in, a, supposedly, decentralized, project won't, really, uh, come, come, to, bear, but again, this, is, nothing, new, if, you, look, at some, of, the, things, that, happened, back, in the, day, with, BitMX, and, some, of the, other major, sexes, we've, dealt, with, all, the

same, issues, it's, there's, nothing, under the, sun, that's, new, here, it's, just, that certain, people, haven't, really internalized, those, lessons, or, they weren't, trading, back, in, the, day, when some, of, this, stuff, was, was, going, down and, you, don't, think, it's, it's, a, big problem, how, centralized, they, appear, to be i, mean, I, guess, that's, really, up, to, you know, those, people, if, you, really, believed in, that, and, if, that's, your, guiding, star of, I, need, to, invest, in, a, decentralized platform, and, therefore, I, no, longer, want to, use, hype, then, fine, but, I, don't, think most, people, care, at, the, end, of, the, day um, decentralized, centralized, if, the price, is, good, if, it's, fast, if, the, fees are, good, they're, going to, trade, there whether, or, not, how, it's, validated, or, how it's, run, is, kind, of, irrelevant, as, long as, they, get, it, and, out, and, they, get, the

P&L, they, thought, they, were, going, to, get yeah, yeah, that's, true, all, right, so, in, a moment, we're, going, to, talk, about, a, twist in, that, saga, but, first, a, quick, word, from the, sponsors, who, make, the, show, possible if, you, love, the, conversations, we, have here, on, Bits, and, Bips, you're, going, to love, our, brand, new, Bits, and, Bips newsletter, our, team, will, break, down, the key, macro, trends, impacting, crypto, the biggest, market, moves, and, expert, insights you, won't, find, anywhere, else, whether it's, the, Fed, inflation, or, major, Dow proposals, if, it, affects, crypto, we've, got you, covered, best, part, it's, completely free, stay, ahead, of, the, market, and subscribe, now, at bitsandbips.behive.com, that's bitsandb.behive.com, find, the, link, in, the

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each, week, subscribe, now, for, free, at financial, freedomreport.org hi, I'm, Matt, Hogan, CIO, of, crypto, asset manager, Bitwise, look, crypto, can, be confusing, there's, so, much, noise, and, the space, changes, so, quickly, that's, why every, week, I, write, a, 5-minute, memo, on the, biggest, stories, impacting, crypto, in plain, English, why, is, Bitcoin, up, or, down what, are, people, missing, where, should investors, look, next, get, the, lowdown every, week, sign, up, to, get, the, weekly, CIO memo, delivered, straight, to, your, inbox, go to bitweisinvestments.com/ciio, memo, that's bitwiseinvestments.com/ciio, memo carefully, consider, the, extreme, risks

associated, with, crypto, before, investing we, have, another, listener, comment responding, to, my, conversation, with, Omar Kani, about, Circle's, IPO, on, YouTube yahani, Buanok, writes, quote, "Doesn't matter, if, they, get, the, IPO, or, not, as long, as, Circle, doesn't, prove, that, its reserves, exist, then, USDC, may, just, be, as worthless, as, play, money, it, can, just [Music] deped, on, the, show, please, write, a, review or, leave, a, comment, on, an, episode, on YouTube, or X, back, to, my, conversation, with, Arthur, so there, was, a, further, controversy, about Hyperlid, which, was, the, fact, that, Binance and, OKX, quickly, listed, Jelly, Perpetuals futures, which, made, it, easier, for, traders to, participate, in, the, short, squeeze, and

I, wondered, what, you, thought, about Binance, and, OKX's, move, there, i, mean, I for, those, of, you, who, understand, some, of the, history, between, the, founders, of, the firms, I, thought, it, was, quite, hilarious that, they, were, actually, cooperating, on something, uh, for, a, start, i'll, I'll, leave it, there, uh, um, but, it's, uh, it's interesting, that, you, know, you, have, this sort, of, decentralized, versus, uh centralized, uh, situation, and, you, know, at a, fundamental, level, I, think, the decentralized, model, in, the, long, term maybe, not, today, is, probably, a, superior model, in, terms, of, running, some, of, these markets, and, you, can, see, why, okay, and Binance, would, be, very, threatened, by hyperloc, and, the, quick, growth, that they've, um, notched, up, in, the, last, year, I

think, there, was, something, like, 10, or, 20% of, their, volumes, and, they've, done, that within, 12, or, 18, months, whatever, whatever the, figure, is, and, so, obviously, they're cooperating, to, essentially, try, to, make it, very, obvious, that, you, know, Hyperlrid might, not, be, as, decentralized, as, they advertise, on, the, tin, and, maybe, they think, people, care, we'll, see, about, that or, not, right, but, at, the, end, of, the, day, I think, it's, up, to, the, users, do, they, like the, trading, experience, on, Hyperlquid versus, some, of, these, other, platforms, um if, they, still, like, hyperlquid, trading you, know, things, then, they're, like "Oh great.", You, know, the, uh, the, protocol protected, me, however, they, did, it, whether it, was, centralized, or, decentralized, in terms, of, decision-m, uh, who, knows, who

cares, and, I'm, going, to, keep, trading there, because, yeah, the, jelly, thing [ __ ], up, they, they, fixed, the, issue, and trading, resumed, and, you, know, everyone was, okay, so, I, think, it's, it's interesting, to, see, who's, threatened, and who's, not, and, these, actions, by, the largest, sexes, against, this, new, upstart decks, uh, is, very, instructive, in, that respect, but, from, the, client, perspective they're, like, "Great, I, don't, care, right i'm, made, whole, uh, I, can, keep, trading fees, are, great, um, Hyperlid, great, you stood, you, stood, up, you, got, attacked, by the, the, big, gorillas, in, the, room, and, you stood, up, for, yourself.", So, I, think there's, definitely, a, narrative, here, of like, a, David, versus, Goliath, like, you know, human, nature, loves, to, support, the the, underdog, and, so, while, maybe, OK, and

Binance, thought, they, were, you, know, doing something, smart, by, hey, look, at, they're very, really, centralized, at, the, end, of the, day, you, know, the, clients, might, be well, well, you, guys, are, trying, to, like gang, up, and, [ __ ], over, the, upstart, maybe I'm, going, to, go, over, at, uh, Trade, the Upstart, and, I, want, to, buy, some, hype tokens, because, I, really, want, to, support this, underdog, um, underground, you, know movement, nonVC, backed, all, the, sort, of narratives, that, really, propelled, the hype, token, from, I, think, $3, when, it launched, to, up, to, 30, and, now, it's, down to, 12, or, 13, or, whatever, you, know, I, think this, could, really, be, positive, for, the price, in, the, long, term, as, you've, really put, some, um, more, attention, on, what's going, on, in, what, is, pretty, much, a, sleepy corner, of, the, market, i, don't, know, if, you

saw, just, cuz, your, um, comments, there, sort of, echo, some, things, that, Kevin, of, Gwa Capital, said, i, don't, know if, you, saw, his tweet, thread, no, but, okay, so, he, was talking, about, this, decision, by, Binance and, OKX, um, and, he, said, quote, every decision, sets, precedent, for, the, future binance, and, OKX, listing, per, hyperlids face, does, help, their, short-term incumbency, status, but, it, also, sends, the message, to, other, sex, and, DEX, competitors of, what, to, expect, if, they, take, on, bad liquidations, and, he, said, he, felt, that challenger, exchanges, would, basically improve, their, risk, management, thus making, themselves, stronger, in competition, for, the, incumbents, and, then

he, said, that, he, felt, this, would, create, a chilling, effect, on, cross, exchange coordination, attempts, such, as, like, if they're, trying, to, create, clearing, houses um, he, also, added, that, this, sends, the message, to, the, validators, that hyperlquid, would, protect, the, value, in the, hyperlquidity, provider and, thus, could, create, overinvestment, in hyperlquid, so, or, sorry, in hyperlquid, oh, my, god, there's, so, many hyperlquids, in, hyperlquidity provider, um, so, then, he, said, if, HLP investors, know, they, capture, full, upside and, will, get, bailed, out, on, big, downsides more, capital, will, come, into, the, value

and, drive, down, yields, so, there's, like multiple, different, effects, that, he, saw and, I, wondered, if, any, of, those, were interesting, for, you, to, talk, about, yeah, i mean, I, think, at, the, end, of, the day, maybe, OK, and, Binance, should, have picked, a, bigger, contract, to, to, try, to [ __ ], them, on, and, launch, a, fatal, blow because, I, think, he's, right, right, jelly contract, and, I, think, the, loss, is something, like, 10, million, or$20, million that, makes, humiliated, right, for, an exchange, that, trades, billion, dollars, a day, in, notional, it, really, isn't, that, big of, a, deal, uh, in, the, grand, scheme, of things, hyperlquid, obviously, survived, uh they, were, able, to, rectify, the, issue, you know, they, acted, in, a, way, whether, you think, it's, decentralized, or, not, and, they

and, they, solved, it, and, boom, they're, off to, the, races, right, and, now, they're, never going, to, make, that, same, mistake, again which, they, shouldn't, have, made, in, the first, if, they, just, read, the, docs, on Binance, and, okay, because, we've, all solved, this, problem, before, already, um but, they, I, think, they, should, have, picked a, different, contract, if, their, goal, was let's, really, um, put, them, to, the, ground now, they've, just, made, them, stronger they've, put, a, highlight, on, the, issue they've, uh, yeah, they've, put, the, moral hazard, upside, into, people's, minds, and the, same, moral, hazard, as, of, like, when people, got, bailed, out, on, the, buy, bit hack, right, we, buy, big, loss, of, one, and a half, billion, dollars, of, ETH, ben, reached into, his, pocket, paid, everybody everyone's, like, great, counterparty, risk

that, doesn't, exist, they're, just, so [ __ ], rich, they're, just, going, to, bail us, out, every, [ __ ], time, right, let, me keep, trading, there, same, thing, i, can invest, in, HLP, um, because, I, know, that, the validators, are, going, to, make, sure, that you, know, heads, I, win, tails, I, lose, great trade, i, know, I, should, invest, in, Bitcoin because, tariffs, are, happening, because, I know, if, [ __ ], really, [ __ ], up, Jerome, Paul is, going, to, get, on, that, podium, and, he's going, to, make, sure, he, prints, that, money it's, all, the, same, trade yeah, yeah, i, think, the, last, thing, about this, that, I, saw, people, criticizing, was, I guess, there, had, been, um, something previously, where, like, North, Korea, had been, able, to, use, Hyperlid, and, um, people were, really, upset, that, at, that, time, they

were, claiming, they're, decentralized, and then, over, a, potential, $15, million, loss in, their, market, maker, suddenly, they, like sprung, into, action, within, 2, minutes, um, I don't, know if, you, have, thoughts, on, like this, kind, of, dilemma, of, you, know especially, because, North, Korea, is considered, not, only, just, just, like, a, big threat, in, in, of, itself, but, then, that, is the, kind, of, thing, that, gets, the, US government, to, also, want, to, take, action in, a, way, that, it's, one, of, those, it's, a it's, the, dilemma, of, decentralization right, it's, well, I, do, I, only, want, the good, things, not, the, bad, things, whatever I, believe, good, and, bad, is, um, am, I, immune against, nations, state, actors, both, on, the you, know, them, using, my, platform, or, the

the, ones, that, don't, like, that, nation state, coming, after, me, like, it's, all, the same, sort, of, philosophical, debate, and, I think, as, a, investor, or, a, trader, you, have to, sort, of, weigh, all, those, risks, and make, a, decision, at, the, end, of, the, day there's, no, really, right, or, wrong, answer on, this, I, think, we're, still, debating this, in, terms, of, how, centralizers, pick your, L1, or, pick, your, L2, and, the sequencer, like, it's, all, the, same, sort, of conversation, all, the, same, sort, risk profile, and, then, you, as, an, individual investor, have, to, sort, of, weigh, all, those things, and, then, come, up, with, what, you actually, care, about, yeah, yeah, and, those teams, probably, should, as, well, and, um sometimes, they're, the, lines, that, they draw, are, sort, of, like, not, always, super

consistent, but, anyway, um, well, so speaking, of, you, know, violations, that, get the, the, government, to, take, notice, um, you actually, experienced, recently, a, kind, of reversal, when, it, comes, to, government opinion, um, on, March, 28th, President, Trump granted, pardons, to, you, and, your co-founders, at, BitMX, as, well, as, another former, employee, and, this, was, um, in response, to, some, agreements, in, 2022, um you, all, pleaded, to, um, violations, of, the bank, secrecy, act, uh, at, you, know, at Bitbex, which, was, the, company, you, founded for, failing, to, maintain anti-moneyaundering, and, know, your customer, programs, and, so, obviously President, Trump, has, been, making, a, number

of, pardons, including, to, Ross, Albrech, the founder, of, Silk, Road, which, is, a, very different, type, of, Bitcoin, related venture, um, but, you, know, the, crypto community, obviously, took, note, of, this and, they, were, very, curious, to, know, how the, pardon, came, about, I, mean, I, guess it's, it's, a, very, well, I, have, a, sample size, of, one, in, terms, of, how, these, things work, we, have, some, adviserss, they, wrote, a petition, on, our, behalf, of, why, we, think we, deserve, a, pardon, and, um, all, those sorts, of, things, we, submitted, it, to, the proper, channels, at, the, White, House, they evaluated, it, and, you, know, we're, very thankful, that, the, Trump, administration um, thought, that, our, case, deserved, a, a presidential, pardon, and, the, the, company as, well, and, so, yeah, it's, it's, as, bland

as, simple, as, that, but, obviously, it's luck, of, the, draw, right, it's, one particular, person, and, you, know, the people, around, him, making, these, decision as, to, who, they, believe, deserve, um, this commendation, within, sort, of, the, United States, legal, structure and, does, that, entail, any, kind, of, don, uh sorry, yeah, donation no oh, okay, interesting, i, also, saw, that David, Hoffman, of, Bankless, tweeted, a question, at, you, um, when, you, know, when you, tweeted, about, this, um, because, you know, you, already, paid, a, $10, million, fine you, already, serve, 6, months, of, home confinement, followed, by, 2, years, of probation, and, um, he, asked, you, what changes, for, you, logistically, since, you

basically, already, kind, of, paid, the, fine and, did, the, time, so, did, what, is, that like, what, does, the, pardon, actually change, honestly, I'm, waiting, for, an answer, from, my, lawyers, i, mean, it's, a feel, good, factor, and, all, that, kind, of things, but, like, actually, what, it, means in, the, specific, United, States, legal theories, on, how, this, works, I'd, have, to say, I, don't, know, and, I'm, I'm, finding, out okay, um, well, one, other, thing, is, we, saw um, back, in, January, Maelstrom, tweeted that, you, and, at, least, one, other, person at, Maelstrom, went, to, Mara, Lago, um, and the, Mailstrom, account, said, quote, "In, the future, we'll, share, more, about, our experience, our, learnings, what, we, hope from, DC, in, the, coming, years.", I, think you, might, have, shared, some, of, it, in, that

newsletter, the, Genie, i, I, don't, know, i couldn't, tell, because, it, came, out, after but, I, I, don't, know, it's, I, wasn't, sure from, the, way, it, was, written, if, that's what, um, was, being, referenced, there, but could, you, talk, a, little, bit, about, that visit, yeah, sure, was, it, a, very interesting, experience, um, obviously Southern, Florida, is, a, beautiful, place marlo, is, a, very, beautiful, uh, country club, resort, kind, of, thing, and, we, were invited, by, the, it, was, a, Vietnam, summit um, friends, of, Asia, uh, and, uh, somebody reached, out, hey, we'd, like, to, have someone, come, and, talk, about, crypto, and how, you, think, that, the, United, States should, approach, um, approach, crypto policy, there'll, be, a, few, you, know congress, people, possibly, some, senators, u maybe, Trump, Trump, did, not, show, up, um, to

this, particular, event, so, I, went, And, I gave, a, short, speech, on, sort, of, my ideological, bet, on, how, regulation, should be, pursued, if, the, goal, is, sort, of maximum, crypto, adoption, and, you, know, you want, to, have, people, building, in, the space, and, essentially, I, gave, [ __ ], notes to, an, essay, I, wrote, I, don't, know, six, or nine, months, ago, I, forgot, the, name, of, the title, and, it, was, basically, saying, that for, crypto, regulation, my, advocacy, is, for something, akin, to, how, the, internet companies, were, regulated, back, in, the early, in, the, late, 90s, which, was, Hey hands, off, you, guys, can, pretty, much, do what, you, want, we're, here, for, innovation we're, not, going, to, prescribe, different rules, obviously, don't, like, you, know defraud, anyone, or, doing, those, those, type

of, things, but, um, we're, not, going, to, make some, like, massive, bill, of, legislation that, requires, lots, of, lawyers, to, to parse, and, so, that, was, sort, of, my, pitch to, the, room, and, I've, you, know, continued with, that, pitch, in, terms, of, you, know when, people, say, "What, do, you, think, about regulation?", Like, "Well, I, think, there should, be, pretty, much, none, of, it.", and allow, people, to, innovate, and, obviously punish, people, who, steal, people's, money and, do, those, kinds, of, things, right, so, I think, if, some, country, enacts, that, sorts of, policy, you're, going, to, have, a, lot, of crypto, people, moving, to, that, particular jurisdiction, because, they, feel, that, they can, innovate, and, create, the, next generation, of, financial, products, uh, and you, know, make, a, really, cool, thing, so that's, sort, of, the, same, speech, that, I

gave, to, the, crowd, in, in, Mara, Lago, and, is that, it, sounds, sort, of, like, then, you would, be, on, board, with, uh, SEC Commissioner, Hester, Pur's, uh, like, token safe, harbor, idea, i, have, no, I, I, don't even, know, what, that, means, because, I haven't, read, the, bill, so, I, can't, I, can't really, I, can't, really, comment, on, that okay, yeah, it's, just, where, um, it, like entrepreneurs, could, experiment, they could, attempt, to, build, something, they wouldn't, necessarily, have, to, jump through, any, regulatory, hoops, but, then, um within, some, certain, time, frame, I, think and, and, granted, this, is, like, from, years ago, i, actually, am, I'm, not, super, familiar with, that, whatever, the, current, iteration is, but, they, would, h, they, would, need, to decentralize, and, there, would, be, some metrics, by, which, that, would, be, measured

within, some, time, frame, um, so, speaking, of Trump, world, the, Trump, family, has, gone allin, on, crypto, president, Trump, and Melania, have, their, own, meme, coins, the Trump, family, now, has, majority, stake, in World, Liberty, Financial, world, Liberty Financial, is, also, launching, its, USD1 stable, coin, the, Trump, family, is, getting into, Bitcoin, mining, with, American Bitcoin, and, I, was, curious, like, what, you thought, of, all, this, activity, from, the president, and, the, president's, family especially, given, potential, issues, around conflicts, of, interest, or, you, know, things that, could, um, I, guess, be, considered something, more, akin, to, like, a, bribe, at the, in, you, know, in, the, government

so, I, guess, from, my, very, limited knowledge, that, I'm, not, you, know, deep, in the, political, weeds, on, what, the, Trumps are, or, aren't, doing, from, my understanding, the, only, thing, directly that, Trump, himself, the, president, did, was the, the, memecoin, and, obviously, his, the first, lady, did, the, Melania, memecoin, and I, wrote, a, whole, essay, about, how, I believe, political, meme, coins, are, a, great thing, in, terms, of, bringing, transparency to, campaign, financing, obviously, I, think we're, very, early, in, that, journey, maybe we'll, see, some, more, political, meme, coins in, the, 2026, midterm, elections, but, in general, I, think, it's, a, great, thing, that Trump, has, launched, this, memecoin, yes, it went, down, 95%, from, the, high, and, and, all that, kind, of, stuff, but, at, the, end, of, the day, what, it, allows, for, is, validation

that, hey, if, I'm, an, upstart, politician and, I'm, facing, some, you, know, dominant incumbent, who's, got, all, this, money, from all, these, vested, interests, you, know corporate, vested, interests, individual people, can, help, fund, my, campaign, by buying, and, holding, my, memecoin, and, I, get real, time, price, information, on, what, the people, think, about, my, policies, so, it's, a much, better, barometer, of, public, opinion because, when, people's, money, is, on, the line, then, they, vote, with, their, wallet the, way, they, think, they, actually, are going, to, vote, similar, to, how, the, poly market, um, was, a, good, predictor, of, the outcome, because, people, put, money, in, the line, you're, not, going, to, lie, on, a, poly market, don't, pay, you're, not, just, going to, you're, not, going, to, play, the, game, if that's, if, that's, the, case, but, you, will lie, to, a, pollster, in, terms, of, what, you

actually, believe, uh, politically, or, who you, intend, to, to, vote, for, so, I, think, the political, memecoin, as, a, as, an, asset class, um, is, a, great, thing, and, I, think you, know, we're, going, to, see, more, of these, things, probably, in, the, next, two, to four, years, if, we, have, some, more elections, it'll, probably, start, in, the, US maybe, some, other, European, democracies, um experiment, with, this, new, way, to, fund, and and, attract, engagement, so, I, think, that's great, on, what, Trump's, family, members, are doing, in, crypto, great, i, mean, they're join, the, party, with, the, rest, of, the, you know, millions, of, people, across, the, world who, are, you, know, mining, Bitcoin, buying [ __ ], coins, trying, to, build, DeFi, apps, um all, for, it

all, right, well, let's, um, talk, about, uh some, other, DeFi, uh, ventures, that, are making, their, own, moves, athena, which, you you, know, that's, your, own, brainchild, and uh, you, are, also, an, adviser, an, investor correct, it's, building, its, own, L1, um people, you, know, are, I, don't, know, i, saw, a lot, of, opinions, saying, that, this, was, not good, for Ethereum, can, can, you, give, us, some insight, into, how, it, is, that, that, idea came, about, and, what, you, think, the, impact will, be, on, Ethereum, so, I, just, did, a podcast, with, a, guy, and, he, went, very, deep on, uh, the, converge, chain, that, they're building, so, essentially, what, he's, saying is, hey, we've, got, this

uh, priceeneutral, way, to, generate, yield in, dollars, and, but, that, you, know, relies on, the, crypto, ecosystem, to, generate, this yield, you, have, a, lot, of, stratified institutions, who, want, a, low volatility, high, yield, relative, to treasury, treasuries, or, some, sort, of, a government, bond, strategy, they, don't necessarily, want, to, trade, crypto, they think, it's, too, risky, counterparty, risk all, that, kind, of, stuff, but, they, they they, could, capture, sort, of, this, the crypto, activity, in, these, elevated, yields which, is, sort, of, the, the, basis, yield, or this, is, the, yield, that, you're, capturing when, you're, um, when, you're, buying, uh, SUS staked, USD, um, from, Athena, and, so, they're

saying, okay, well, how, do, we, bring, these two, things, together, so, how, about, we create, our, own, L1, and, we, give, these traffic, institutions, some, of, the permissioning, that, they, need, to, allow them, to, invest, on, an, onchain, asset, with you, know, KYC, whitelisting, all, that, kind of, stuff, right, so, let's, build, a purpose-built, thing, that, fits, the, use case, of, what, we're, trying, to, do, and, so that's, what, they're, building, and, so their, goal, is, hey, I'm, XYZ, large, hedge fund, or, pension, fund, or, asset, manager and, instead, of, earning, four, and, a, half or, whatever, the, fed, funds, rate, is, right now, on, a, T, bill, I, can, earn, 8, 10, 15, 20%, u based, on, these, this, synthetic, dollar

from, Athena, and, I, can, buy, it, in, a, way that, my, regulators, and, auditors, are comfortable, with, on, this, new, chain, that fits, all, my, specific, ifications, and, so that's, what, he's, hoping, to, do, Guy, the the, founder, is, take, those, hundreds, of billions, of, dollars, bring, them, into, the crypto, ecosystem, via, this, chain, and, via this, deltaneutral, state, synthetic, dollar product, and, meet, them, where, they, are instead, of, saying, "Hey, this, is, you, know decentralized, crypto, you, need, to, trade on, XYZ, different, chain, and, just, [ __ ] deal, with, it, in, terms, of, how, that works.", That's, that's, his, goal, as, I understand, it, whether, or, not, it's, good for, Ethereum, i, mean, I, mean, if, if, people believe, that, sort, of, app, chain, based

L1's, or, L2s, whatever, you, want, to, call this, are, bad, for, Ethereum, then, I, think that, ship's, already, sailed, there's, so many, of, these, things, already, so, if, you if, that's, what, you, believe, then, I, hope you, don't, own, ETH and, wait, when, you, say, that, you're talking, about, the, kind, of, like, are, L2s parasitic, to, ETH, question, yeah, all, that kind, of, thing, more, like, if, I, have, a, a ecosystem, with, a, bunch, of, users, I'm, not going, to, use, the, dominant, 01, i'm, just going, to, create, my, own, you, know, app chain, specific, thing, with, my, spec specific, use, case, kind, of, thing, and therefore, I, don't, need, to, use, ETH, or Salana, or, whatever, major, L1 and, I, mean, yeah, so, that, is, happening

more, but, that, creates, fragmentation, do you, feel, like, it, it, just, is, the, future that, we're, going, to, have, this, whole fragmented, ecosystem, or, I, mean, I, think it, depends, on, how, much, security, that, do you, need, right, if, I'm, a, pretty, much centralized, thing, so, Athena, is, not decentralized, right, it, parks, a, bunch, of collateral, on, centralized, exchanges, and third, party, custodians, and, then, offers you, a, yield, that, they, actively, manage, so they, have, protocols, on, how, they determine, where, capital, goes, and, and those, sorts, of, things, but, it's, It, never said, it, was, decentralized, and, it, isn't decentralized, and, so, when, you, build, your own, app, chain, I, don't, think, security, is the, biggest, concern

um, or, sort, of, um, censorship, resistance and, all, those, those, all, those, sorts, of things, so, you, were, centralized, to, begin with, you, never, went, out, there, saying, you weren't, however, if, you're, some application, that, requires decentralization, that, requires, hardness against, you, know, nation, state, actors, or very, bad, individuals, um, at, the fundamental, protocol, level, that something, like, Ethereum, makes, a, lot, of sense, it's, the, most, secure, L1, out, there based, on, the, value, that, is, at, stake, um in, in, the, POS, system, so, again, it, depends on, what, you, need, from, from, the blockchain, will, we, have, lots, of fragmented, app, chains, probably, but, there will, be, that, one, or, two, you, know applications, that, require, the, security and, the, decentralization, that, Ethereum

or, other, L1's, attempt, to, bring, to, the table, and, they're, going, to, have, to, pay for, that, and, the, users, are, going, to, have to, pay, for, that, but, it's, okay, because what, you're, providing, to, the, users, is something, is, that's, what, they, want, so, I think, that, is, probably, the, future, we have, both, things, it, just, depends, on, what you, need okay, yeah, honestly, this, converge, thing the, way, you, described, it, it, honestly reminds, me, of, R3, do, you, remember, that yeah, remember, them, yeah, okay, so, I, I, know that, so, let's, let's, I'm, not, going, to like, ding, guy, here, and, ding, my, ad, adise saying, he's, like, Arthy, because, Arthur, is a, piece, of, [ __ ], um, and, you, know, there's a, reason, why, he, doesn't, exist, anymore yeah, yeah, yeah, i, didn't, mean, that, they were, like, literally, similar, what, I, meant

was, the, concept, was, a, little, bit, similar um, obviously, our, thing, was, super different, because, it, was, supposed, to, be like, all, these, different, banks, and financial, institutions, come, together, and then, have, this, chain, and, you, know converge, obviously, it's, it's, more cryptonative, it's, not, um, it's, not anything, like, that, and, you're, right, yes of, course, they, have, a, real, product, um but, it, is, just, interesting, it's, sort, of like, a, separate, playground, um, so, you know, I, guess, like, to, me, yeah, it, does raise, that, question, of, you, know, I thought, the, future, was, going, to, be, DeFi connecting, to, Tradfi, and, now, it, feels like, the, way, that, this, is, shaping, out, it might, be, more, a, little, bit, separate, i guess, there, will, be, connections, but, but still, slightly, separate, areas, of, of, play

um, well, so, while, we, are, talking, about Ethereum, there's, you, know, just, been, so much, hand, ringing, generally, in, the Ethereum, world, and, I, know, you, uh described, Maelstrom, as, holding, mostly Bitcoin, and, ETH, um, I, know, you've, had salty, takes, on, Salana, at, the, same, time that, you, also, were, trading, the, meme coins, and, stuff, but, you, know, right, now um, it, does, still, feel, like, there's, kind of, this, I, don't, know, you, know competition, between, Salana, and, ETH, and it's, sort, of, a, question, of, how, it's going, to, play, out, and, I, just, wanted, to check, in, again, i, feel, like, I, I've, asked you, this, question, multiple, times, but, I know, it, might, shift, so, yeah, what's, your outlook, for, both, of, those, chains, right now, and, so, I, guess, the, best, way, to, think about, it, is, if, you, have, a, a, fresh, unit

of, fiat, of, capital, what, do, you, do, with it, do, you, buy, Salana, or, do, you, buy, ETH right, now, given, all, the, things, that, that are, happening, and, so, I, would, say, ETH from, a, riskreward, p, riskreward perspective, is, better, more, because, it's as, hated, as, you, say, whenever, you, have, a turn, in, the, cycle, you, want, to, own, the most, hated, thing, because, that's, going, to perform, the, best, and, you, don't, want, to own, the, most, loved, thing, from, the previous, cycle, because, that's, going, to perform, the, worst, that's, not, to, say, that Salana, is, not, going, to, go, up, a, lot, but relative, to, something, else, is, it, going to, perform, as, well, and, so, I, think, ETH has, sort, of, the, um, the, market fundamentals, uh, to, do, very, well, in, this next, leg, up, because, people, hate, it, so much, and, so, you, know, if, it, starts, rising

a, lot, in, price, then, you, start, getting, on the, oh, no, ETH's, back, right, and, everyone forgets, all, the, things, that, the, reason why, they, they, hated, ETH, in, the, previous cycle, and, then, they, they, jump, on, the bandwagon, and, I, think, from, Salana's perspective, you, know, Salana, did, very well, on, sort, of, the, memecoin, super, cycle or, whatever, you, want, to, call, it, over, the last, 18, 24, months, but, I, think, that, yes there, will, be, some, meme, coins, that, do well, if, you, know, my, predictions, on, fiat liquidity, come, true, and, so, we, get, a bitcoin, rally, to, 100, or, 250,000, or whatever, right, there, will, be, some, meme coins, that, do, very, very, well, but, are, we gonna, go, back, to, where, we, were, 12, months ago, where, everybody, in, their, mother, was just, like, slinging, meme, coins, trying, to find, the, $1, million, market, cap, that, goes

to, $100, million, market, cap, and, just handing, hundreds, of, millions, of, dollars in, fees, to, pump, fund, i, don't, think, we're going, back, there, and, so, I, think, all, that activity, that, was, on, Salana, based, on memecoin, trading, won't, be, there, and, so the, narrative, of, oh, memecoin, trading, is amazing, it's, the, anti-VC, way, to participate, in, crypto, is, on, Salana therefore, I, need, to, own, Salana, as, the, L1 that, hosted, all, that, activity, i, think that, narrative, goes, away, in, the, similar way, that, NFTTS, did, very, well, in, 2021, eth is, the, home, of, digital, art, right, that was, the, narrative, back, in, the, day, that's why, I, need, to, own, ETH, there's, so, much activity, in, NFTTS, so, I, need, to, own, ETH right, and, NFT, volumes, still, haven't recovered, to, where, they, were, in, 2021 even, though, we're, much, higher, in, terms

of, a, global, crypto, market, cap, today, um that's, not, to, say, NFTs, are, dead, it's just, certain, things, did, well, most, things you, know, went, to, zero, or, near, zero similar, with, meme, coins, there, will, be some, things, that, survive, most, of, them will, not, and, the, fervor, around, trading these, things, is, going, to, shift, to something, else, now, if, again, if, that, is located, on, Salana, then, great, then, that can, that, you, know, Salana, can, do, very very, well, but, if, that, fervor, is, not located, on, Salana, then, what, is, the, thing that's, driving, these, transaction, volumes on, a, marginal, basis, that's, different from, where, it, was, previously, that's, the question, and, obviously, I, don't, know, the answer, to, that, we'll, see, how, the, future plays, out, but, I, think, that's, a, big impediment, for, Salana, retaking, what, is it, a, 280, or, 300, whatever, that, uh, that

number, was, at, the, all-time, high, earlier this, year so, I, don't, know, if, you, have, thoughts, on this, and, you, can, decline, if, you, don't but, you, know, everybody's, also, talking about, Ethereum's, tokconomics, like, how, to fix, them, how, to, fix, this, issue, with, the L2s, like, if, you, were, in, a, position to, you, know, kind, of, push, Ethereum, in, a better, direction, from, a, price, action perspective, and, I, don't, mean, short-term but, just, you, know, like, more, of, a tokconomic, perspective, what, would, you, do i, to, be hon, the the, tokconomics, to, be, able, to give, you, an, answer, to, that, question, okay okay um, so, we, have, news, uh, that, just, came, out

that, circle, uh, plans, to, do, an, IPO, very soon, and, um, you, know, the, valuation, being floated, is, like, $5, billion, um, you, know there's, a, number, of, kind, of, interesting uh, tailwinds, and, headwinds, that, it's facing, in, different, ways, um, because, you know, stable, coins, are, at, this, inflection point, like, tether's, you, know, gigantic there's, the, stable, coin, legislation coming, and, then, there's, all, the, macro stuff, that, we, talked, about, earlier, so, I wondered, if, you, had, thoughts, on, how, you thought, that, IPO, might, perform, or, just generally, circles, prospects, in, the future, so, I've, been, on, record, saying, I think, the, circle, IPO, is, dog, [ __ ], um, that that, doesn't, mean, it's, not, going, to, go up, when, the, list, but, would, I, buy, it absolutely, not, um, so, first, of, all, I

think, Tether, is, great, because, it, offers essentially, dollar, rails, dollar, banking to, the, the, entire, world, that's, not America, right, americans, have, dollars they, have a, banking, system, it, kind, of works, they've, got, Venmo, if, they, don't want, to, use, the, banks, and, Cash, App, and Zel, and, all, these, sorts, of, things, right so, you, want, to, send, a, digital, dollar around, America, you, can, do, it, it's, pretty easy, if, you, want, to, send, a, digital dollar, in, China, and, Argentina, and Southeast, Asia, that's, difficult, which, is where, Tether, comes, in, right, but, if, you think, about, the, the, client, bases, of Circle, versus, Tether, Tether, is, a, global exame, thing, Tether, is, a, United, States thing, and, so, I, think, that, from, a fundamental, basis, the, client, base, that's

going, to, use, uh, Circle, already, has, a, lot of, alternatives, and, they're, going to have, even, more, now, that, you, have, maybe one, of, these, stable, coin, bills, comes, in you, have, competition, from, the, large money, center, commercial, banks, who, want to, offer, their, own, digital, dollar, stable coins, you, have, all, this, competition, and at, the, end, of, the, day, the, only, thing that, Circle, makes, money, on, is, net interest, margin, right, they, have, a, bunch of, dollars, they, buy, some, treasury, bills they, have, a, spread, now, they, already don't, make, the, full, nim, because, they have, to, hand, it, all, off, to, Coinbase because, Coinbase, is, essentially, the distribution, partner, so, Jeremy, Aair, is Brian, Armstrong's, [ __ ], and, the, question is, how, long, will, it, take, for, Coinbase how, low, will, the, price, of, Circle, go, and then, Coinbase, just, buys, them, i, think

that, that, is, your, exit, liquidity, for this, trade, if, you, want, to, trade, this, IPO it's, okay, when, does, Coinbase, buy, Circle cuz, without, Coinbase, Circle, is, a, zero and, so, they're, completely, dependent, on the, distribution, arm, of, of, Coinbase, to survive, because, that's, where, most, of their, net, interest, income, goes, to, is, to Coinbase, and, then, Coinbase, distributes however, they, distribute, it, so, I, don't like, buying, [ __ ], so, why, would, I, buy uh, Circle's, IPO, if, you, want, to, own, the dog, the, top, dog, just, buy, Coinbase because, at, the, end, of, the, day, you, know they, permission, Circle's, existence, so that's, what, I, think, of, of, that particular, um, IPO yeah, yeah, i, saw, a, lot, of, takes, um, saying not, you, know, not, to, dissimilar, things, um

so, obviously, at, Maelstrom, you're investing, in, all, different, kinds, of projects, um, I, believe, you, do, pretty small, amounts, like, 50K, to, 100K, correct how, do, you, assess, potential, investments and, what, types, of, projects, are, you interested, in, now, so, you, know, from, my level, as, a, CIO, I, don't, really, look, into the, weeds, on, on, most, projects, the, the guy, who, runs, the, book, Akshot, Videia, he's the, he's, the, man, with, the, plan, um, I guess, sign, the, checks, but, my, my direction, is, more, on, uh, very, stringent limits, on, the, price, that, we, pay, right, so if, we, can, make, a, lot, of, bets, but, we, pay very, low, prices, then, it's, very, hard, for us, to, lose, money, on, an, aggregate, basis even, if, you, know, we, don't, do, so, well, in in, picking, things, so, that's, probably, the number, one, discipline, that, I, enforce, on

on, his, team, is, okay, we, don't, pay, more than, X, um, we, don't, sort, of, get, sucked into, the, oh, my, god, this, is, the, hottest project, ever, XYZ, major, other, crypto, VC is, doing, it, we, need, to, do, it, too, we don't, get, involved, in, that, [ __ ] great, you, know, mostly, because, there's, no LPs, other, than, myself, so, I, don't, need, to have, a, marketing, of, I'm, always, in, the biggest, deal, like, you, know, pick, your name, brand, VC, fund, to, justify, to, clients why, you, charge, them, 2, and, 20, or, 3, and, 50 or, whatever, they, charge, uh, charge, our clients, i'm, not, you, know, charging, fees based, on, on, access, i, just, want, to, make more, money, for, myself, uh, and, for, the employees, so, we're, very, very, stringent on, the, price, that, we, pay, for, things, uh and, and, the, cycle, so, I'm, advising, on

where, do, I, think, we, are, in, the, cycle, so obviously, earlier, in, this, year, I, was a much, more, bearish, i, thought, you, know we're, going, to, top, out, so, the, optimism over, what's, going, to, happen, in, the, US markets, was, overdone, and, so, we, were trimming, and, selling, down, lots, of positions, i, still, think, you, know, when, I check, in, with, Ashan, I'm, like, okay, well how's, pricing, going, for, early, stage deals, he's, like, it's, just, too, expensive for, the, level, of, the, stage, of development, of, a, lot, of, these, projects people, are, demanding, massive, you, know initial, fully, diluted, valuations, for, you know, basically, just, a, pitch, deck, and, yes you'll, there, are, the, occasional, one, or two, deals, where, they're, going, to, grow into, that, valuation, and, do, very, very well, but, for, the, most, case, you're, just locking, in, a, loss, uh, at, the, end, of, the

day, and, so, we're, actually, not, that active, right, now, in, the, early, stage, game we're, more, just, evaluating, are, there some, beaten, down, highquality, projects and, maybe, we, also, have, a, relationship with, them, either, we've, invested, with them, or, we've, advised, them, or, the, team's been, looking, at, them, for, a, while, or, we should, be, deploying, a, lot, of, our, liquid capital, because, we've, raised, a, lot, of cash, from, doing, well, in, the, 2023, to, 2024 cycle, and, obviously, the, game, is, to continue, to, increase, uh, the, value, of that, so, we, should, be, looking, for, those types, of, projects, so, that's, where, you know, we're, more, focused, on, liquid, where we, can, deploy, larger, amounts, of, capital um, into, things, that, we, believe, are beaten, down, in, this, sort, of, um, altcoin decimation, that's, happened, over, the, last

probably, like, 6, to, nine, nine, months okay, so, last, quick, question, um, I, feel like, every, time, I, talk, to, you, we, talk, at the, end, about, price, projections, we, I know, we, already, talked, about, Bitcoin, but that, was, kind, of, like, a, short-term, thing and, I, saw, another, tweet, that, you, had recently, you, said, "If, we, hit, 110K, then it's, yatsi, time, and, we, ain't, looking back, until, 250k.", So, that, was, Bitcoin and, then, the, other, tweet, that, I, saw, was ETH, to, $5, before, sold, to, $300, so, can, you explain, Oh, oh, 5k, sorry, right, yeah, so what, yeah, what, that, doesn't, make, any sense, $5, so, what, um, Yeah, what, goes, into your, thinking, on, all, three, of, those, so

again, it's, this, I, want, to, if, I'm, gonna on, a, riskreward, basis, in, a, new, cycle trend, I, want, to, own, the, most, hated, thing and, not, the, most, loved, thing, of, the previous, cycle, so, what's, the, most, hatest L1, it's, ETH, so, I, think, ETH, could, be, the dark, horse, that, does, very, very, well, and could, retake, it, you, know, previous all-time, high, of, 5,000, back, in, in, 2021 before, Salana, goes, up, I, don't, know, 2, or 3x, to, retake, its, previous, all-time, high of, 3, months, ago, of, of, 300, that's, sort, of the, trade, that, I, would, be, making, if, I have, fresh, capital, now, I'm, not, deploying any, fresh, capital, into, ETH, i, guess, I'll hold, a, bag, of, it, so, it's, not, really, a apples, to, apples, comparison, but, that's sort, of, how, I'm, thinking, about, the

market, right, you've, got, a, you've, got, a unit, of, fiat, your, goal, is, to, maximize that, unit, of, fiat, by, owning, the, thing that, goes, up, the, most, um, that, is, the goal, and, then, but, for, Bitcoin, from, 110 to, 250, that's, like, more, than, double, so how, are, you, making, that, projection, so again, I, think, you, know, by, when, we're into, the, third, and, fourth, quarter, we're we're, going, to, have, the, United, States China, Japan, and, the, EU, all, printing money, all, providing, financial accommodation, because, you, know, they, need to, safeguard, the, value, of, their government, bonds, they, need, to, make, good on, the, promises, to, their, electorate, and you, have, sort, of, this, reorganization, of the, global, finance, and, trade, ecosystem

initiated, by, Trump, but, now, everyone, else has, to, react, and, what, the, reaction, is I'm, going, to, print, money, and, make, it okay, for, you, don't, worry, that's, what, the political, answer, is, to, to, Trump's tariffs, I, believe, and, therefore, by, the end, of, the, year, we're, going, to, be swimming, in, fiat, liquidity, and, you, know Bitcoin, at, 250,000, we, might, even, be higher, if, you, know, if, we, get, the, sort, of gusher, of, liquidity, out, of, the, major trading, blocks, that, I, expect, huh, all right, Arthur, well, it's, always, a, pleasure where, can, people, learn, more, about, you and, Maelstrom, so, on, X, Cryptohaze, on Substack, we, have, the, CryptoHaze, blog, and yeah, that's, where, I, am, and, Mailstrom fund, or, Mailstrom, Fund, on, uh, on, X, as

well, perfect, well, it's, been, a, pleasure having, you, on, Unchained, thank, you, thanks so, much, for, joining, us, today, to, learn more, about, Arthur, and, Maelstrom, check out, the, show, notes, for, this, episode unchained, is, produced, by, me, Laura, Shin with, help, from, Matt, Piltchard, Juano Vanvich, Megan, Davis, Pam, Jimdar, and, Marco Koua, thanks, for, listening [Music]