Arbitrum Nitro Launch with Steven Goldfeder & Harry Kalodner

Transcript

hey bankless nation welcome to another episode of state of the nation super exciting topic to discuss today that is the release it just happened just a few minutes prior to us getting on the live stream hitting record arbitram nitro launched arbitram of course you guys remember that is an ethereum roll-up uh the largest to date in terms of total locked value and they just released a major upgrade we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about what's so special about it we're going to talk about how it's a scaling ethereum and there's a lot more david uh what else are we going to cover this episode with harry and steven from arbitrum ryan i opened up the youtube just now just to you know do what i normally do and

monitor the live stream and out of like the 12 or 13 comments i mean eight of them were when token when rb token uh and so i am of course going to ask the arbitration team win token at the very end very very end so all the people are gonna have to stick around to the very end of the show in order to hear these questions but there are also some other developments not just in the arbitrary one ecosystem because arbitrary one is no longer the one and only arbitrary chain there is a new arbitrary train arbitrary nova ii arbitrary no no nope um but there's plenty of details to unpack with arbitrary nova and so so much going on in the arbitrary ecosystem and we're going to unpack it all here

today on the state of the nation it's going to be exciting to talk about also a message from our sponsor and our friends at smartcon this is a conference put on by the folks at chainlink we love this conference i've attended it virtually because it's only been virtual but to this year is the first year it's actually in person it is happening september 28th to 29th in david's new hometown of new york city look at the speaker list david read some of these names out for people got eric schmidt the former ceo of google sergey nazarov of chain link bology from uh bankless podcast just kidding cto of coinbase uh sam bankman freed from ftx we got kane from kanan stani from synthetics in ave and of course ed felton co-founder of uh

of arbitrum uh not on the show today but on the arbitrary team of course as well all showing up for smartcon in new york in person there's a link in the show notes if you want to get your ticket and if you want your ticket to be costing less money you can use the code bankless to have a discount yeah the gold bankless discount we're hooking you guys up uh that's bankless.cc smartcon that'll get you that discount if you type in bankless where they ask for the code david gotta start with the question i always ask in each one of these episodes what is the state of the nation today ryan the state of the nation is upgrading upgraded uh and this is also a slight disclaimer uh the bankless livestream ecosystem has

gotten a facelift uh and so there are now many more buttons for me to dj this live stream and there's many more like things and it's overall better and more complicated are you saying it's been upgraded it's been upgraded it's been upgraded and so uh if the stream gets weird i'm sorry about that but we're also recording locally so no matter what this podcast episode will happen uh but not only is arbitrary nitro getting a huge upgrade which is the main focus of the show but this is also a disclaimer that uh the bankless livestream infrastructure has also gotten upgraded and it's a little bit overwhelming because it's the first time so that's also a disclaimer there you go two two upgrades at the same time uh so far arbitrage has been really successful not a hitch hopefully

we have the same luck with the bankless livestream today david and you know what strikes me it's not only uh arbjum and bankless it's getting an upgrade it's also ethereum that's getting an upgrade whenever rollups improve their technology to compress uh transactions they get faster they get cheaper that's an upgrade to ethereum that's an upgrade for going bankless it makes ethereum more scalable so of course we got to start there and talk about that right when we get back with steven and uh harry from arbitra but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible lens protocol is an open source tech stack for building decentralized social media applications it is the new era for social media we all have toxic relationships with our

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create so in order to get started there is a secret code word in the show notes enter that code word in the google form links and you'll be well on your way to entering the world of web3 social rocketpool is your decentralized ethereum staking protocol you can stake your eath in rocket pool and get our heath in return allowing you to stake your eath and use it in defy at the same time you can get four percent on your eat by staking it with rocket pool but you can get even more by running a node rocket pool is the only staking provider that allows anyone to permissionlessly join their network of validating ethereum nodes setting up your rocketpool node is easier than running a node solo and you only need 16e to get started you get an extra 15 staking commission on the pooled eid that uses

your note to stake you also get rpl token rewards on top so if you're bullish east staking you can boost your yield by adding your node to the decentralized rocket pool network which currently has over 1 000 independent node operators it's yield farming but with ethereum nodes you can get started at rocketpool.net and you can also join the rocketpool community in their discord you can find me hanging out there sometimes in the chat so i'll see you there arbitram is an ethereum layer 2 scaling solution that is going to completely change how we use defy and nfts some of the coolest new nft collections have chosen arborstrum as their home while d5 protocols continue to see increased liquidity and usage you can now bridge straight into arbitrome for more than 10 different exchanges including finance ftx kuobi and crypto.com once on arbitrome you'll enjoy fast transactions with cheap fees

allowing you to explore new frontiers of the crypto universe new to arbitron for a limited time you can get arbitrary nfts designed by the famous artist ratwell and sugoi for joining the arbitrary odyssey the odyssey is an eight week long event where you complete on-chain activities and receive a free nft as a reward find out more by visiting the discord at discord dot gg slash arbitrary you can also bridge your assets to arbitrarium at bridge.arbitrum.io and access all of arbitram's apps at portal.arbitrum.one in order to experience defy and nfts the way it was always meant to be fast cheap secure and fiction free hey guys we are back with some of the co-founders behind arbitram which is the leading roll up right now in terms of total locked value big

upgrade today i want to introduce you again because it's been a year to steven who's the ceo and co-founder of off chain labs and also harry who's the cto and co-founder of offchain labs gentlemen how are you doing launch day again how are uh how are things are you hanging in there are you sweating at all is everything going okay doing well yeah thanks uh for having us really really great to be back i think uh the launch went fantastically well um and you know we're excited to be here and talk about it i i'm still not like familiar with this concept of of having a launch day and then having a afternoon the launch day and not being in like a total panic um but it just goes to show we spend a lot of time preparing and have an awesome

team whenever we have uh people that come on on lunch day they're like running a mile a minute like they can't breathe and then they come on to their podcast and then they're super like distracted because there's also a bunch of like stuff happening at the same time yeah so like lights are flashing what are you guys like what's behind the scenes what's going on right now like what are you guys monitoring what are you guys like what would you otherwise be looking at if you weren't on this podcast with us so one thing is you know we went back online our core infrastructure it will take others uh someone back online already you know ether scan for example went back up right away a lot of the node providers did um some other infrastructure will probably continue to come on over time although i think most

of it's already on so we're just basically monitoring uh partner questions and conversations but uh really uh honestly not that much fundamentally kind of the our own tech is the thing that's easy to be kind of highly confident in and that we've done we did the test net a month ago we've kind of tested to death in all sorts of interesting ways um that kind of the biggest effort this last month has been sort of ecosystem coordination just because like i don't need to tell you guys there's a lot of stuff going on on top of arbitram um and even with the nitra upgrade being sort of quite seamless for most people there's still enough kind of nitty gritty

details that affect various specific applications and infrastructure providers um that there's sort of a lot of coordination and that's where we've been really focused and that's where i think these sort of next day or two will be will continue to be sort of very focused on kind of hearing feedback from there and solving any issues that might come up yeah i guess that's true you're upgrading a platform for an entire set of applications ecosystem all of this infrastructure as as well and i'm sure there are so many moving parts there um i i want to zoom out uh for a minute too because um this is actually a special day not just because the bankless livestream has been upgraded although david's really excited about this and nitro has launched but also because it

is the one year birthday of arbitrary one the original chain so like you guys launched this thing a year ago which is like first of all happy birthday to arbitrum and secondly i was kind of thinking about this um this is sort of uh at the end of last year i think was the last time we had you guys for live stream on bank list was like september or something of last year and i remember how excited we are about and we had this analogy of kind of like rollups are like a theme park and like they're all of these these rides but it's not yet open for the public and now arbitrary is about to open it for the public and the cool thing about getting the theme park is once the gates are open you can not only

ride all the rides but you can like go make your own rides like roller coaster tycoon style if you're a developer right and so um just zoom out for us for a minute how do you guys feel one year after launch has this gone how you thought it would is it um as expected were there some unexpected things uh harry why don't we start with you yeah no it's a it's a really interesting question and i think it's just i i instantly am thrown back to thinking about the insanity which was kind of after our initial launch um when we were expecting to kind of like gradually pick up steam um and instead if you remember arby's arby nion that launched about i think

in the first week and very rapidly accumulated over a billion dollars in the system um which was not something we were expecting um and i think it was sort of for a long time i think essentially sort of it was it was downhill from there in a way and that like kind of like that was like you know that was yield farming that was sort of relatively i don't want to say inorganic and we didn't cause it but it was not sort of sustainable growth as those things tend to be um and so i think kind of the really interesting journey that we've been on has been sort of rebuilding and and exceeding the that sort of initial burst of growth with sort of

really sustainable um unincentivized kind of growth that's been been continuing going strong which has been pretty damn cool harry am i looking at this on the chart so this is a l2 beat which is a great place to track kind of total locked value of arbitrary one and you said just like you know suddenly you kind of open the the gates to the uh the park and then bam there's a billion dollars is that what we're seeing on the chart yep exactly um and the other interesting place that shows up is in uh um this kind of transactions where you see this sort of huge initial spike and then kind of significantly lower for a while up until the point where now it's kind of rebuilding to rebuild it rebuilt to be there kind of at a similar level um

consistently so what's interesting is i guess this is like what arbitram looks like in the quote unquote uh like great crypto bear market of 2022 and you guys are still above uh two billion in uh in market cap and uh i guess looks like um still leading the charts here as uh the number one roll up with optimism uh in second place uh kind of close but 2.15 billion versus one point five eight billion i don't want to dwell too much on total locked value because i think that is somewhat it can be like a vanity metric or can be inflated in in weird ways as you've just described but it seems like there's been a pretty quick growth of the ecosystem um stephen as you reflect on the last year

what do you think about yeah i mean i would agree with harry that it's it's definitely not how uh i could not have predicted how the year would have gone how it went but fantastically happy with the way that it did one interesting piece of perspective that i'll give you so you mentioned we were on i think we were on september 7th of last year and and so if you look at the nitro um repository right to where the code lives on github you'll see the first commit to the night show repository was september 8th so here we are on bank list a year ago september 7th talking about this brand new thing we launched and you know we're already thinking about like you know today's launch right actually like we're back to work thinking about how do you make this

thing better and that's basically like there's you know we're we're super happy with the way that launch is going and the way that land and we're really really working to get adoption but we're also constantly thinking about how do we make this better and i can tell you we already have you know the initiatives i'll probably go live next year um already you know working on it and constantly thinking about how do we scale because scaling is like a catamounts game like we scale and then more users come and demand keeps growing ethereum demand is not going down uh long term at all it's going to keep going up and up and up but we have to keep the tech ahead of that curve uh steven as you said ethereum demand is is not going down it's going up and up and up and a lot of that demand is

transferring to to roll ups and indeed kind of the bankless message over the past year since arbitrary many other rollups launched is like go make your home go migrate to a roll-up see what you like go go test out a few and just like kind of start to build your business there start to start to go bankless on these roll-ups um i'm i'm curious though it's like maybe for for people who aren't familiar i know if they're listening to bank list they know what a roll up is you got to know what a rollup is right guys but like what what's special about arbor trim specific take on rollups could you give us just the the highest level i know we've covered it in detail in other places it is an optimistic roll up what else about arbitrarum uh would you want to tell us what's different about

it um stephen back to you yeah i would focus on like three things you know going a little deeper number one like you said it's an optimistic roll-up it's a particular type of optimistic roll-up that we um you know um put forth back in our academic paper that uses something called interactive fraud proofs and basically uh that's a technical way but what it allows you to achieve is a really really compatible um optimistic role of it's easy for people to build particularly easy for people who know how to build an ethereum to build to build an arbitrary and you know that's something which is you know really really important to us which is you know continuing to be the line not just because we're building on eve also because we're community aligned with eve and it's really easy to build we're also very tech focused first um you know we

have a fully complete built out system and we're really really excited about that um and you know we the system is in beta today but all the code is there and complete and and the last thing that that i'll say is you know the way we think about it the nitro launch is actually a really big milestone for us um but it also shows how we think about our roll-up in which we're not married to a particular tool and say hey i need to use this tool we're married to a solution and you know we're constantly thinking about how do we solve this how do we do this even better and that's something which you know i don't know people sometimes say to me hey will you guys use this dk so maybe maybe one day we will we're definitely you know not against it we're just constantly

thinking about how to be scalia theory and the best so um you know when i think about the futures of our futures of our patreon i don't want to dwell too much even even as excited i am about the current technology it's really the goal that we're that we're aligned on and the tools will definitely change over time as they did today i want to zoom back into uh some recent history in the arbitram universe and i think going back to the beginning of the arbitration odyssey i think will actually be really helpful for listeners understand the significance of nitro um because we we did this thing called the arbor trump odyssey but the odyssey had to be put on pause because uh we didn't have nitro yet so i'm wondering if can we go back a few weeks or months back to the beginning of the

arbitrary odyssey can you explain what what it was the the arbitrary odyssey what is the arbitrary odyssey what was its intended goals and then what did we learn as a result of the very beginning phases of the odyssey harry i'll throw it to you on that one um i i can i can kind of take the take take a high level then i'll probably toss it back over to stephen since uh since he could probably say even more than me i mean broadly speaking kind of the goal of the odyssey is to to bring users into the ecosystem um that sort of i think one of our favorite things about the artwork ecosystem um that we wanted to highlight is just sort of how much depth there is how many different things there are to do um i think kind of towards sort of your earlier point like

our goal has always been sort of have people be able to come and stay uh not have people just sort of slide into the system to interact with kind of a couple daps um but then kind of run out of things to do but to actually have kind of a full complete ecosystem and i think the odyssey kind of at a high level is very much sort of the the effort to to highlight that um i don't know if stephen if you want to jump in um or i'm happy to keep uh yeah i think that's what i would say to you it's really about education and and you know i saw um someone tweeted the other day and said i got introduced to the odd to gmx via the odyssey and i haven't stopped using it and that's like a great example of like

learning about what there is to do in arbitrary and that was our main goal i know there was a lot of speculation we had other goals with the odyssey but really our main goal was about uh education and introducing users uh to to the platform and um yeah that that's that's what i think uh which we've begun to accomplish we did put it on pause um but that we will continue to accomplish when we restart it i think i think a nice metaphor to explain the odyssey the one that landed in my head was it kind of felt like um a tour of a college campus like you like you get everyone heard them all together walk through walk them through the campus like and here is our library where you can go leverage long or short on gmx and here is our nft museum with

magic in the treasure ecosystem uh and so it was like a a little bit like a a phase where like you each week you do uh in each individual thing and week one was bridge week right because you know if you're going to start an odyssey you need to get everyone on to the arbitrary chain and so week one was bridge week and then week two was going to be the next phase of the odyssey but that's when we learned some things uh who wants to who wants between the two of you who wants to walk us through what happened there um oh i'm happy to take it how are you either yeah sure i mean essentially sort of the the thing we found was that instead of the way that that kind of arbitrarium was pre pre-nitro um we were running at a

approximately um and now we can with nitro we'll get into later we can say this much more exactly but we're running with approximately ethereum's worth of capacity um one ethereum capacity yes cool i like that i like the scale of measurement it's easy to understand like one ethereum um no same um i think and i think kind of the thing we found is basically that that was really easy to to be to to fill that up um kind of we've been in an interesting dynamic where sort of because roll-ups had been sort of relatively early in the stage of adoption um i think for a while people were sort of treating them as though kind of gas optimization didn't matter things could be sort of arbitrarily complex um

and that wouldn't sort of and i think that was sort of a wake-up call all around that well it's still a blockchain it still has limited capacity um it from our perspective essentially kind of in that in that state we sort of were obviously well on our way to working on nitro and planning nitro um and have this vision in mind where it will certainly be significantly more um although there's there's always sort of this this question which is there's no kind of how much demand is there and it's very hard to predict and it's very hard to see um i don't think we quite imagined how much demand would rush in for the odyssey um that if you look at sort of the massive spike of usage associated it was it was quite

large um i i think sort of when you know it will be it will be very interesting to see when it begins again um because sort of to be to be quite upfront about this we're we're gonna massively increase our capacity um we you know that will allow for many many many more users to make use of the system there is there will still be a number of users that that could hit limits um if enough demand comes in since it's not unlimited um but we can certainly serve hugely more people which i think is pretty critical so high level harry arbitram1 launched another ethereum's worth of capacity basically and by the time the odyssey kicked off everything was like full you know how

you're measuring capacity is like all blocks full something like this yep and you didn't have enough space to continue the odyssey so you guys said okay too early for the growth phase the bus that was the odyssey yeah like sorry guys the bus is full tour bus is full um you know we don't have any any room for more more students to take the tour the campus tour and you put odyssey on pause uh for a period of time until you could deploy nitro is that the case exactly yeah effectively sort of in a way it was almost kind of too successful um in terms of sort of the amount of demand it created um and i think sort of you know the when when things like that

occur and i mean it's the exact same thing we see on ethereum all the time well not all the time but relative relatively often where some event happens the chain becomes massively congested prices goes up and go up and sort of you know the rest of the ecosystem says what's going on everything's more expensive this is affecting us negatively and sort of the thing we wanted to avoid um was was that impact um and sort of the way to avoid that impact is to have more capacity so that the system doesn't get overwhelmed and harry you said something that i think was worth uh parsing out uh at the very beginning of arbitrary one it was in it was like there was so much block space it's like so all these doubts could be like oh i'll just use all of this block

space look at all this empty block space i'll just use it all and this is kind of just an inevitable truth of every single blockchain in its beginning phases is that since there's such an abundance of block space dapp developers don't write space optimized contracts and so like all of the i from what i've gathered like the early days of the of the arbitrary dapps never they never had to be constrained in this respect uh and so then once we actually do like an actually like marketed and productize our odyssey type thing where like okay come and use all of these daps and all the arbitrary app developer is like oh wait like we forgot to consider like optimizations uh and so not only i'm guessing since then a lot of arbitrary

dapps have in addition to like arbitrary itself growing in capacity i'm about to ask you guys by how much capacity but i'm assuming also the arbitrary dapps have started to be more uh resourceful with their design of their contracts would you guys say that's true it's a good question i would say so i wouldn't say that people didn't kind of think about optimizing i would say that sort of what what people were focused on optimizing was different so for example a lot of thought went into optimizing down the amount of call data involved because that's the cost of posting matches to ethereum that's the l1 resources that's expensive um so a lot of thought went to optimization but essentially the the kind of at that point it was a very good

trade-off to make um to use more gas on arbitrary to use more execution gas to save money on ethereum and so i think yeah as kind of as things have moved i think people have sort of seen seen those tides moving and are working on adjusting um so i definitely think that sort of people are reacting but it's not that they hadn't thought about it it's that they were kind of had different focuses and the cool thing about with that event is that all that happened was that the gas fees on arbitrarium went up right just like in the same way that ethereum gas fees go up when there's congestion the arbitrary gas fees went up because there was congestion uh there's alternative scaling models out there where the thing just shuts down uh for

perhaps that was not that's actually not an intended feature of some other lego one blockchains but that is the inevitable conclusion and so the fact that like arbitrary just mimics ethereum and its design uh i think illustrates like the the way that arbitrage when we talk about arbitrary is like one ethereum another ethereum's worth of scale like no it's literally another ethereum in in a layer two and it operates and looks the same way and so uh with that in mind stephen do you want to say something yeah i know i i would agree with that exactly and you know the thing to say is arbitrary it worked exactly as intended you know as you basically said and you know to use the bus analogy the bus tickets got expensive and there were those people

that just wanted to take it on the bus and so for us the decision was easy because it was like hey we know that we're you know right around the corner from nitro we're going to increase the capacity so why not wait so we can you know allow many more people on this bus and but the system worked exactly as intended right so the decision was made to put the odyssey on pause bus is going to hang out while we upgrade the engine uh and so what what getting into the nitro conversation what about nitro is like what's the secret sauce behind nitro and if if arbitrarily won previously was one ethereum's how many ethereums is nitro it's it's a good question um

yeah so i mean i'll start with the with the the second one just because that's relatively easy we're currently kind of live with seven a pro clue approximately seven seven ethereums were seven ethereums of capacity wow seven ethereum's worth of capacity steve just seven x this uh hey i definitely wanna know how you did that right uh that's incredible um yeah no and that's a you know i think a perfect transition into sort of what's the what's the secret sauce um and i'll say sort of fundamentally kind of the secret sauce well first of all um i think in a lot of ways kind of arbitrary nitro is a is a very classic

startup story in that kind of arbitrary one was effectively sort of our mvp um in a significant way it was the first thing we figured out how to build that we knew had legs and had it could work um but we also sort of knew early on there were limitations um there were things that we were not the case we didn't stick around and wait to launch it until we had fixed them because if so we would never have you know getting off the ground is almost impossible um but we had these ideas in mind and kind of fundamentally there was a lot of various overhead we were figuring out how to do fraud proofs on chains for the first time um which at

at that point was i think very early and sort of people didn't really have a good figure on and i think you see this all over the place in terms of as research develops i know steven likes to talk about his his phd being a course of finding out over and over and over again that like his previous work was like kind of crappy and that there was a way better way of doing it and i usually use those words but it's accurate the latest one is great though thank you um but uh and effectively sort of what we figured out with nitro and kind of the the core to me is that we cook a lot of kind of the custom work that we had to do in order to figure out how to solve this problem originally and we were able to swap out almost all of that work with

standard dvm before we had this this complicate this relatively complicated new system we built from this ground up called the avm which was our own virtual machine because it was so complicated to figure out how to prove to ethereum that a given l2 chain was correct that we needed to invent an entire virtual machine for it uh with nitro we using using geth using wasm using a bunch of sort of standard powerful tools um we were able to basically not need to do much less custom needs to do much less with kind of lower performance um tooling and be able to effectively do what nitro is today which is running as a kind of full standard evm capacity um so there's a lot of different sort of evm chains

out there if you call sort of anything that is forked off of geth um there are some fundamental kind of scaling constraints in the evm world which maybe we can talk about those a little later um but arbor trim nitro is essentially competitive with any other um evm chain um and the 7x is basically sort of our line for how to have sort of sustainable growth so that people can continue to run nodes over time and validate the chain um while having as much capacity as possible i i want people to hear that so we just 7xed ethereum which is essentially what we're doing because we're preserving the trustlessness and the decentralization i know there are still some kind of like you know governors on that uh management pieces on that and on arbitrary one but like

that is what we're doing long term we've just 7x to ethereum were there any like trade-offs made in the process did we lose anything are there any added trust assumptions or is this all pure engineering compression like magic that allowed us to do this pretty pretty pure win uh pretty pure win man i would i would say effectively um the trust model doesn't change at all with with arbitrary one um we'll we'll talk about nova later there there's some more kind of interesting tradeoffs made um but this and kind of the i said i'll say again sort of the the amount of capacity is kind of fundamentally

how only limit basically limited around this idea of state growth how much how beefy of a machine do you need to stink the chain um this is where we decided was reasonable um which and kind of i think there's we have some good reasons for that but sort of that's that's the only limit there is um ethereum is very conservative ethereum wants everyone in the world to be able to validate the chain um because of the rollup security model you don't need to make anywhere near that aggressive an assumption because you don't need two-thirds honest you need one honest um and that lets us sort of exceed ethereum in that way um which is sort of where we get that 7x from and i want to go into that bottleneck a

little bit more uh you said it was the state growth why can't we have 70 ethereums harry why haven't you brought and brought in 70 ethereums to the table what what breaks stop being so greedy i'm i'm working it's hard sometimes what breaks uh if you turn that 7 into a 70 number like why can't we have that yeah so it's sort of and this is kind of the the same constraint that people on ethereum that the kind of ethereum core devs worry about i mean in terms of kind of the main reason that the ethereum gas limit is not higher is the main reason that the arbitrary gas limit is not higher um which has to do with effectively how much memory your computer needs to be able to actually hold the entire current state um since

effectively in order to execute the blockchain quickly you need to be able to quickly read any storage cell any contract code anything that kind of could be immediately relevant um you need to be able to hold that in memory or you need to take a long time reading the disk and you can never process this quickly um and that's kind of the fundamental limitation there so the so the state of arbitram which is different than the most recent block the state of arbitrum is needs to be held in a computer's ram how do you know what is the current state size of arbitrary like how much how much ram do you need to be able to read this thing um i think currently we're somewhere it's definitely under 10 gigabytes i'm pretty certain yeah

this is modest it will it will increase over time um and effectively sort of the the reason for the gas limit is we could crank up the gas limit to 70x probably and it would be fine running nodes for the next year um but a year and a half from now it would start to get really really hard right we were starting difficult 100 gigs of ram to be able to manage this thing at that point and at that point we're like oh we have we've gone beyond the capacity of what can be expected exactly it's about controlling the rate of growth over time so that sort of the rate of hardware getting better keeps up with the rate of the chain getting harder to run and how just again some basic bare bone scaling stuff why is that different than

ethereum why are you guys able to scale faster than ethereum when ethereum has that same constraint it is identical to ethereum um so all of this comes down to basically ethereum makes some very aggressive choices about making it very easy to run a node at home it's very important to ethereum that kind of you at home validation is is is easy to do um that you can validate on a raspberry pi and these are like important values and they're very important for ethereum because you have proof of stake or you've been with provenberg either way um where you need to assume that you have a lot of honest people there who are able to participate in the system it needs to have a low barrier to entry roll ups can can sustain a significantly

higher barrier to entry because you only need one honest person right um so ethereum needs like two-thirds of the nodes to be able to have sufficient ram an arbitrary optimistic roll-up just seems like well we kind of just need one honest person with sufficient ram and that's where we get that scale from yes so simplistically the reason to not do this 7dx is because you need more than one because you need all the infrastructure you need blocking explorers to work you need you need sort of all sorts of tooling indexers automation tools all of that that that's sort of where we get the limitation from okay we need to make sure that ether scan can came up with arbitrarily and infuria can keep up with arbitrarily but

but the idea is that the number of entities that need to keep up with arbitrary is significantly reduced yeah and we are able to reduce that number without breaking our basic trust assumptions of the ethereum layer one yeah exactly every time i talk to roll up teams i'm like okay i have to go and like remind myself about the basic like theory behind every single layer one because like it's hard to keep in my brain from from month to month to month when one last question on this train of thought when we say that arbitrary nitro is now seven ethereums uh what nuance is lost when we explain it that way like what engineers did we just trigger by explaining arbitrum in that particular mechanism oh no that's a good question so there's

i guess there's two things i could say for that one is interestingly we don't measure our gas in blocks because of sort of how arbitrary block production works where sort of blocks are produced quickly we instead measure it in gas per second um so that equivalency is based on sort of what the ethereum block time is um and sort of doing doing some division there in order to calculate that that's a relatively minor one the other sort of probably more interesting one is that there's two independent resources that arbitrarily consumes 7x is the amount of of addition of the amount of l2 resources we have um but also when you're using arbitrary you're using ethereum resources because of how transactions get posted on chain um that we actually are also improving with

nitro um because we're introducing additional compression um but that's sort of not in that same category of 7x and is measured totally separately okay okay beautiful okay so we've got we've got arbitrary nitro right right have a question before yeah go for it i do i just before you get to kind of like you know uh the resuming odyssey and such i i just want to spend a minute to zoom out right so we we just got a 7x and like david i'm i'm real happy about that but i'm also kind of like david i'm real greedy too and like um the question in my mind is what's the next step from here just curious so can you get another you know 7 to 10 x out of like

better engineering in the next version compressing it some more are we like um we had an episode with a plena recently where we talked a lot about eip 48450 and proto-dank sharding and what that provides to rollups which is really inexpensive call data which is a key to scaling roll-ups as i understand but if you just like um you know tell us what this will look like next year on arbitrary one's second birthday kind of scalability increase could could we see there and then like on arbor trims third birthday when it's just like you know just a toddler and it's walk it's just learning to walk and it's you know flailing around what what

does that look like because that's probably a post eip4844 world uh any thoughts on this harry um yeah this is i mean this is like the tough question um i'll say you know to start with the easy one which is that sort of 4844 is like hugely valuable and important but it only but what it solves is essentially further decreasing those l1 costs so between the new compression and nitro and 4844 those costs i think we can expect will get very very small and then you basically are left with sort of the main cost of using arbitrary being paying for this l2 capacity in this chain with kind of 7x ethereum capacity um that's the relatively straightforward one

the complicated one is then well what about that chain's capacity and i think there's sort of two things all i can say there one is sort of i think you've seen today and we'll talk more later probably about nova um and you can see this idea of sort of multiple parallel roll-ups nova has 7x ethereum capacity arbitrarily one has 7x ethereum capacity they don't take capacity from each other they're totally independent so between the two of them we have 14x ethereum capacity um that is sort of relatively simple to do from a technical perspective from an ecosystem perspective it's much more complicated because these are separate chains with separate dapps and separate code deployed on them um

but that's the one that kind of like you know you can clearly picture today i think beyond that you get into these sort of fundamental considerations of how do you scale the evm better um how do you sort of actually do that i think all of those go down the line of well there the evm itself has to change um to some degree um and these are these are questions that kind of core theory and researchers have been struggling with one way or another for a while and i think very much kind of we see ourselves among them um that fundamentally kind of how to scale arbor from and how to scale ethereum are basically sort of ethereum's computational capacity will be sort of the same question um because they're operating under the same

constraints and i think that there's kind of going to be a lot of interesting stuff evolving on that front as sort of the research community really kind of aligns around that question but every like arbitrary birthday can we count on you guys to give us another like 7 to 10 x or something like this stephen what do you have to add to this i think we have some promises my friend i think we have a few more seven to ten x's with us i can tell you this we have um just like nitro started a year ago um you know the production repo we have several other really really promising um efforts you know to harry's point some of it's gonna be fundamental some of it but i i do think they're still um i don't think we're at the optimal point yet and i would expect um

that we'll we'll deliver uh once again in the next year i can't tell you which of our various efforts will be the one just like you know when i just started it wasn't it wasn't the only thing nitro started one as a one-person project and slowly became the company priority so one of these various efforts that we're running will probably over time dwarf the others but i'm pretty confident that we have uh we have some a bunch more scale to squeeze out of the system and then do more fundamental things as well um but long term i'm pretty bullish and um yeah i'll put a reminder for one year but i'm pretty uh well i need the calendar so i think i fully agreed and i think my main point there was sort of like it's it's ways that you start to drift a little bit from the evm while

maintaining the user experience essentially that like sort of that you start to look at like around the edges how can we like poke at this thing prod at this thing to sort of keep the user experience as similar as possible but do things in ways that that are that are more scalable so guys what happens next are we when does the odyssey resume we get back on on track with the odyssey when does that happen so we haven't announced an exact date yet uh we don't have an exact date yet but it will come it will resume in short order um we'll want to see the system uh like we said today when i went on without a hitch but we want to give it you know a little time to stabilize before we uh really really bring in even you know a large mass a larger mass of

users although we have seen some pretty high you know transaction uh volumes today and we actually just uh at the start of this call hit our 25 million transactions so that's that's exciting um but yeah so the odyssey will definitely restart in in short order and uh we're excited for that 25 millionth transaction do you know off the top of your head do you know how many transactions the ethereum layer one has had a whole lot more than that but i don't know off the top of my head but um more than that when when will you pass ethereum um well remember we were only running at one ethereum's capacity uh right right so actually but now is the actual point where you can actually chase ethereum and actually catch up exactly because now he's built

capacity you know if we if we're at capacity in a year we'll we'll seven years do seven years of ethereum so now is the time where that where that rate actually happens that becomes feasible okay over under one year from today will you have a total transaction count higher or lower than ethereum what's it gonna be because ethereum's we know seven it's seven years old uh and so you know can you guys squeeze in seven years of transaction history inside of one year with seven ethereums like i think the math kicks out we're putting a lot of pressure on this birthday let's see what we deliver i'm looking now ethereum's done 1.6 billion transactions so we still have have a ways to go uh to catch up to that and our goal honestly isn't you know isn't

even to catch up that our goal is to meet the demand and continue to increase the demand that we have and we're confident that um we will meet the demand uh for the next year and when we come back in the year we will um scale our attack to meet even further demand so guys i told the chat that if they could get 50 likes in the next 10 minutes then i'd ask about the token and they've got about four minutes left to get 20 more likes uh so we'll see if they can make it but there's plenty of other things in the arbitrary ecosystem that we want to talk about we already talked about arbitrary nova and we want to dive into that a little bit more also just what's hap in the arbitrom app layer i want to get your perspective on your guys's favorite dapps and

ecosystems there and maybe if this uh chat can get these likes underway we might ask about the arbitrage airdrop as well so we're gonna do all of these things and more right after we get to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible juno is bringing crypto friendly banking straight into your trucking account with juno you can send money from your juno checking account straight onto a layer 2 like polygon optimism arbitrarum and they have zk sync and stark net support on their way you can skip the ach wait times you can skip all the gas fees and go straight from your checking account to an ethereum layer 2 in seconds inside juno you can buy and sell crypto with zero dollar fees and your juno checking account comes with a metal master card that gives you up to five percent cash back on your spending juno is also

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the possibilities of web3 and supports multiple chains including ethereum and solana you can even buy crypto directly inside the wallet with ram and of course you can store send and swap your crypto assets manage your nfts and connect to other wallets and defy apps so whether you're new to crypto or you're a seasoned pro it's time to ditch those risky extensions and it's time to switch to the brave wallet download brave brave.com bankless and click the wallet icon to get started all right guys we are back with harry and steven from arbitram we were talking all about scaling ethereum they just brought us seven ethereum's worth of scale with the launch of arbitrage from nitrogen which is awesome we should be grateful for that i'll

remind my co-host david we should be grateful for that i know we want more um but actually there is more in a way i want to start talking about another chain that you launched called arbitram nova and i remember when we first talked to you guys a year ago uh september of last year it was kind of news to me um that if there was an arbitrary one there could also be an arbitrary ii or an arbitrary iii or an arbitrary iv that arbitrary one wasn't just necessarily one chain arbitram is a technology that can be used to cross multiple chains and so now we have option one which is getting some nft usage also getting a lot of defy usage now we have this other

chain that you've launched using arbitrary tech stack called arbitrum nova this is the brand new layer 2 chain what is the big deal about arbitrary nova like what is it exactly there are some trade-off differences i think from a trust perspective maybe you could describe that and what kind of use case and set of users are you going for on nova stephen i'll throw it to you the arbitrary nova is built on the arbitrary truss technology and it uses what's called a data availability committee so most of the tech actually looks like a rollup actually arbitrary nova is already running the nitro stack so he did that launch with nitro right off the bat they're both running the nitro stack

now the difference is whereas on the roll-up arbitrary one we put all the data on ethereum uh in arbitrary nova we don't put all the data on ethereum instead we send the data to a data availability committee but the rest of it the fraud proofs all happen does happen on ethereum that's the core difference but remember at least for the current time until we have like eip 484 or similar initiatives the vast majority of our cost is that data posting on ethereum and so when you are able to send the data to a committee instead the cost is significantly significantly reduced so so what is nova who's it for like why are we doing this but before you go there stephen i just want to jump in and just do a little like uh bankless professor kind of um like uh thing to try to describe that

and link that so we did an episode called the modular blockchain where dave and i attempted to explain all of this what you just talked about is there are really three parts of a modular blockchain right so we've got the consensus layer innermost layer and then we've got the data layer and then we've got the execution layer the way i think about this is the execution layer is on the outside and that's what's happening now it's kind of current state execution the data layer is what's already happened and the consensus layer is what's true ethereum in a layer two in a rollup like arbitrary ethereum ethereum uh remains the consensus layer it determines what's true you know it comes to consensus on that that's why we say

rollups are secured by ethereum and then arbitrum is doing the execution layer that's all the evm stuff where you run your apps but it's also posting its data on ethereum and using that data layer so it's using ethereum for the what's happened and what's true and that's what arbitrary 1 is using today now arbitrary nova is different it's still using ethereum for the consensus layer that innermost layer but it's using a different data availability commun committee as you call this stephen rather than posting on ethereum for that data layer the what's happened layer uh and it's still using of course arbitrary technology for the execution layer uh is that is that about right did i do that

okay yeah that's that's exactly right and um yeah he uses that committee though in a you know just like you said in a pretty limited way it uses it just for the data but the rest looks just like uh the roll-up and actually it has an affordance built in nova that if the committee stops doing what it's doing and stops um posting data it just turns into a roll up it literally reverts back to a roll up and starts posting data on ethereum so the committee basically the committee's role is if it functions right it keeps the transaction fees low but if the committee stops functioning the chain becomes a relevant actually you know here's an interesting nugget which we don't really talk much about but it's definitely possible like if eip-484 delivers and further data sharing delivers and like data on

ethereum becomes really really cheap maybe someday nova just becomes a rollup and we stop using the committee because it's just cheap enough to use ethereum uh even for the nova applications so if the data availability committee goes away just reverts to a roll up and that just makes it more expensive right because it starts using ethereum for data availability as well is that correct exactly so the committee is important in keeping the the fees low but fundamentally the chains liveness even if the committee disappeared the chain will continue to operate uh just like a roll up with that dude i didn't know that part that's pretty fascinating so and this would be called a validium i guess if some people are using that terminology would you call it that i don't want to get two in the weeds but yeah hey

the zk solutions zk roll ups and options zka solutions with data availability big availability committees are called validium so this is the optimistic analog of a validium yes you got it very good i really like this model where if it breaks it just reverts back to its normal form because that's how we've described roll-ups and ethereum where like if the roll-up itself breaks then it just reverts back to you'd make a ethereum layer one transaction and so it kind of feels like it's like nesting doll of scale or like this inception of scale fractals fractals of scale right where like if the most performant but centralized layer breaks then it goes back to a little bit more decentralized with a little bit more

cost and if that layer breaks then it reverts just back to the ethereum layer one with a little bit more cost and i think that is really emblematic of not compromising on ethereum security and that's really what this means is that if you don't sacrifice that then you just ultimately revert back to the thing the layer below it that is still working so it's a really elegant solution here yeah and it does add a little bit of trust because it has the committee in that case where it works but we think so we think you know it's well worth it and it also it's it's any trust which means you don't need to trust the entirety of the committee you need to trust one or two members of the committee so we came out the door the committee is actually quite strong includes us reddit ftx consensus p2p quick node and

google cloud actually so you have like web 2 giants and web 3 giants participate in this committee and a user just needs to say i trust that one and i don't care maybe i don't trust anyone else but i trust that this one or two committee members are doing their job and that's how the nd trust technology works that you really have to have pretty trust minimize the committee plus trusting ethereum and everything works you know um uh quite well is it exactly a roll up does it have the full security of a rollup no there is value of putting this data on ethereum but i think that nova you know occupies a very special place where it gives you a high security chain but also ultra low fees and again the ultra low fees come from the fact that you're not putting all that data on ethereum and that's a

significant cost reduction all right so the ultra low fees piece of it and when you set the date availability uh committee like two two names popped up in my head that oh these people are in crypto one is google cloud which is interesting but it makes sense that they'd be there for infrastructure purposes the other is reddit reddit the social media website social media giant 450 million daily active users that reddit is what we're talking about here okay so and they're also doing stuff with uh arbitram and i think arbitrary nova specifically what are they building on arbitram nova yeah so they are as you said both part of the infrastructure and helping

run the data committee and also building on the chain what they're building is called community points and it's really really cool and actually going back and i've been in the this blockchain space for a bunch of years i remember like this is one of the early things people talk about wouldn't it be cool if reddit like you know did their point system on the blockchain and what community points is it's live in you know particular subreddits today is a point system where you participate in the community you comment you you upvote etc and you get these points which are actually blockchain tokens delivered on arbitrary and the reason why that's you know so cool is because now users have self-sovereignty over these points so no longer can reddit say hey i'm shutting down your account and now you lose your points so users

actually keep those points and they control those points they're not controlled in a centralized database it's actually pretty pretty forward thinking i've read it to offer this to users and to somewhat give up this control over these points but it's also very very very powerful and you know the reason why it's powerful is because it's an open ecosystem it's on arbitrary nova and anyone else can launch an app here as well i can launch a game and the currency in my game are these reddit community points right that's something which i can totally do so you're not only having the you know reddits um foundational you know um community points here but you actually can have an ecosystem that builds around community points you know which is powerful and reddit is very for you know forward thinking one thing you know that that i think is a bit different from in

2017 there was a lot of hey let's put this industry on the blockchain let's like take all your health records and put it on the blockchain terrible idea if you ask me by the way now it's like no we're not putting reddit on the blockchain because it makes a lot of sense for reddit to be a web 2 company but is there a way that the blockchain can help reddit is there a piece that it makes sense and you know even though it's minimalistic compared hey let's put reddit on the blockchain it's a lot more thoughtful and it actually makes sense and that's why i think it's so cool it's a sign of maturity of this tech yeah it's also a sign of maturity that i i don't think um you know to its users reddit is saying this is now our points are on the

blockchain right it's kind of like happening behind the scenes and it's sort of the the infrastructure behind this point system too uh which is really neat and like yeah i guess when you have an open economy like this you can imagine all sorts of different use cases like you know taking shape like the the you know keyboard warrior reddit moderator who's like spending a lot of time moderating earning those points getting those up votes right now they can use defy with those points take out a collateralized loan on your uh reddit community points like how crazy is that how cool is that and that's what we're talking about unleashing because nitro of course can be bridged back to ethereum or uh

you can bridge assets from from excuse me nova back to nitro for example so we've just unlocked the entire ethereum economy for something like reddit points i imagine they're they're probably planning a a slow roll on this so they haven't done this across all of their subreddits but um can can nova actually handle the scale of something like like reddit yeah so so they have done this um it's in two communities now but um definitely nova can handle a lot a lot more uh than that and yeah i do think nova is well positioned to to handle uh you know the capacity of reddit here and others building in in reddit's ecosystem and you know actually this is to me it's

it's the vision people you've probably heard people say like oh let's get the next billion users on the blockchain and how do we do this not by me going on twitter and like finding a billion users to you know install metamask and try something out it's it's by taking the tapping into these existing communities and so yes i think we're actually with arbitrary nitro and arbitrary nova built on the nitrous stack i do think we're at that point the maturity where we can actually handle the scale we can say hey reddit or hey you know to the reddest of the world we're ready for your user base you can onboard your users onto the blockchain many of these users for the first time but once they come they'll probably stay and do something else or at least many of them will and absolutely you know i do think uh we're

ready for that and we'll continue to expand at capacity on our next birthday yes next birthday a lot of pressure for that i know david's got something to say but i just want to underscore for the audience because you mentioned 2017 like um this is such a sea change from what we saw in 2017 right so we have reddit now using underlying blockchain technology right we also had uh facebook meta adding blockchain nft tech to instagram and and like facebook like it's happening it's finally happening and in in 2017 if we could like if you had told me in 2017 that uh meta like facebook instagram and reddit would be using the blockchain today using

ethereum today i would have been like blown away and over the moon bullish and like probably would have bought a lot more eth at that time but uh you gotta say something well ryan you said earlier uh something about um uh like moderators collateralizing their community points and doing stuff in d5 with it and maybe the listener heard that i was like that's crazy why would they ever do that i would like to uh let list some listeners know who perhaps haven't heard the story but this has actually already happened with reddit r ethtrader donuts and so there's already been a token enabled subreddit that put donuts into uniswop and had a very liquid relatively liquid doughnut pair and it's really up to the community to

figure out the financialization of their own token so like well that might have like been like oh that's a crazy concept that's just out there it's actually already been done before and so i think that this was really just one of the early use cases that was actually shown to reddit that some communities are like ready and able and willing to like lean into some of this weird crypto stuff uh and so it's probably where reddit got some of these ideas but steven here i want to ask you about like does this super cheap and super low gas uh data costs of arbitrary nova is this at all competitive with like a zk roll up if we are adding like another order of magnitude of cheapness and of the data for uh for arbitrary nova

why why would a zk roll up like how did how is a zk roll up relevant to this or would a zk roll up be able to do this and is something like a data availability committee that arbitrary nova has competitive in that same sort of landscape as a zk roll up yeah so i i'd say similar to what we touched on before that if i was you know um apples to apples i would say the op an optimistic roll up is competitive to a zk roll up at least in terms of technology i'll talk about like cost in a second and um uh nova or the any trust technology is probably an analogous to the zk rollups called volidium so that's probably how i would i would say that and basically what validium is is zk proofs plus data off chain um so

that's in in terms of cost i you know i think um i think that they're actually going to be you know relatively cost cost compatible as well i think you know my personal take is and at least from everything i've seen to date is optimistic roll ups will be cheaper at least for a long time than zk roll ups um and if you take all that data and put it off chain then i think the same thing will hold for nova to valydium's as well so um you know there's a tendency some people have is to say compare arbitrary today to um you know some future zk roll up in the future um that you know but in terms of systems that are live today and you know we have a lot of birthdays in store um and that's what you know it's important to remember which is the same

way you know we will our future will not look like like today either so i think today arbitrary nitro is um the cheapest and most compatible general purpose roll-up that exists across zk and optimistic and i think nova will hold that spot for for um data availability chains and are there any sorry go ahead harry oh oh yeah no i just wanted to jump in and add there because actually i want to i want to disagree with steven and say nova is way better um because basically sort of the the big the big thing that nova has over over volitiums is that there's sort of validiums have to do to proofs uh validiums have to generate these big

expensive zk proofs that take a lot of computing power um and that like in the roll-up space there's an argument that like kind of there's some compression advantages there's sort of some trade-offs you can say well they do more computation but then they can avoid posting some data um for volidiums and any trust chains where data is cheap um that's just a really clear clean win for for for any trust chains that sort of there isn't any that there's this big expense that politiums have that nova just doesn't have there you go that's hairy thrown down bring it bring it zk roll-ups so guys let's uh zoom back out into the app layer of arbitrarily we're still calling this thing arbitrary not

arbitrary nitro this is like the nitro upgrade to arbitrarily right yeah so um i think before we have arbitrary nitro is the software stack that's actually powering both arbitrary and average nova and it's admittedly very you know i'm sure confusing so thank you for clarifying that right right okay so on on arbetron the arbitration that people know and love and use mostly the arbitration that they're familiar with uh the app player is pretty damn robust uh we we had the treasure ecosystem founders on for a very high energy um uh uh interview that i did with um uh there's also gmx which is definitely taking crypto twitter by storm overall like what else is on going on in the arbitrary app layer that really gets you guys excited uh i know you're not

allowed to pick favorites amongst your children but is there any daps that you guys particularly enjoy or our users of yeah um you know i think you you hit on some of the the big ones which is of course treasure gmx but there are some others that are that are are really really um and i'm you know i'm for sure going to miss somebody so i apologize in advance to all those people but like you know particular ones that that i'm excited about are also mycelium uh future swap um also um you mentioned gmx umami vesta uh you know and the the the theme here is you know there and of course all the layer one like apps defiantly there you know unit swap sushi swab we curve obviously there too but the cool thing

is that we're enabling something like the d5 2.0 that they almost it's interesting they almost use the d5 1.0 infrastructure right like they'll build they'll you know tap into unispot pools and sushi spot pools and that's you know something which we really enable that um to me there are really two exciting things about the apps that we enable in operation one is um doing unit swap cheaper and that's really important because you know traders retail traders who were priced out before can now use unit swap and they could do a 100 trade and the fee doesn't like dwarf the purpose of the trade but then there's also like the gmx is our thing that you couldn't do this on on layer one the transactions are just too large and expensive but really really great product that you can do on layer two so those are the things that

i'm most excited about and i i fell through the fell into the trap of listing some names and i'm sure i will get in trouble for this later but i'm excited about all of our children stephen harry has the uh treasure community gotten you to do uh an e yet e what is this wait what is this what is an e i don't know it's an internal meme to this community i don't know how it came about they had me do it on the live stream too i don't know how it came out i think i made a bad pun on twitter the other day where they're talking about gaming and instead of aaa i said triple e [Laughter] okay guys uh so hypothetically if there

was a token to be associated with arbitron what would its ticker name be just out of curiosity what what would you call the ticker name yeah it's a great question i don't know the answer to that question maybe some users in the comments have some suggestions i'll read them so i thought it was like arb because arabs like arb for arbitrage capturing the arbitrage name as your ticker name would be pretty cool but arby also just sounds fun i don't know just how do you spell it would it be a rbi or rb yeah that's a rbi e or maybe just like rb right like that i know it's not like a r b y like arby's letters and if i was this hypothetical token

when would we learn the name of this hypothetical token like when would we learn about this so so let me tell you this actually because it actually relates a lot to to our launch today what we're doing our team is tech first and that is the most important thing for us and the reason for that is because you know as i think you share this belief we're not building tech for you know we're not trying to win in a week or a month we're trying to build tech for for decades and generations and we think it's going to be really foundational for a very very long time so getting the tech right first you know even before we think about any of these questions having mature tech is is critically important to us and and the most important to us so uh we wouldn't really

even honestly engage with this um you know before um say our tech is mature and the good news is arbitrary nitro definitely goes a long way to the maturity of our tech and now obviously we do want to um you know continue on the path of decentralization of our protocol so we will be engaging with these and thinking about these questions very very strongly but to us it is tech first and the tech um you know the good news is that the tech is um pretty mature now with the launch of nitro so i have nothing specific uh to share that uh today on on on on unfortunately only to say that um you know now that the tech is out of the

way some of the questions of how do we decentralize how do we involve the community more in the protocol become very very uh important to us and we will definitely consider various options there and we will you will absolutely be first to know when we have anything to announce but we do have some really cool initiatives that are that are coming up in plan so please beautiful what about uh the remaining like so we got nitro out the door so now like arbitrom is now seven ethereums so like check that box of scale for for arbitrom what are the other like check boxes that are really on the list that you would consider on the path towards maturity for arbitrary tech

yeah so arbitrary has you know we call it running in beta mode today and what that means is um a few things we have some checks and guardrails uh in place around things like who can validate and who can do that it's actually not just just us anymore there are some others involved the ethereum foundation is validating but opening that up and continuing to do that is you're going to see uh more on that in in uh relatively short order exciting announcements coming there so some some alpha is that is that the same conversation as decentralizing the sequencer that was my next point um decentralizing the sequencer so um that's more um further uh that's decentralizing validation decentralize that sequencer is the idea of um the sequencer is relatively limited in

what it can do like if the sequencer you can't censor because there's a force on a layer one you can just post the transaction to layer one it can't like post a bad transaction the only thing the sequencer can do is reorder transactions or extract mev um as the term is uh run the sequencer today and don't do that we process transactions in the order they come in but decentralize the sequence there's a way to say hey how can we have many people running the sequencer so logically there's one sequencer but under the hood it's a bunch of people running this and you have run this with a protocol that is called fear ordering and it's something that i worked on during my time at cornell a fair ordering bft protocol or fair ordering consensus protocol that says hey we're running the sequencer in a way that it can't reorder transactions

so really try to minimize mev so that's something which is um also coming up on our roadmap and in pretty short order and have some really really good initiatives uh running internally there as well well you guys have uh certainly been hard at work for a very long time and it's obvious from the energy in this chat here uh that the community that you have corralled around your protocol is also just big fans uh and it with the robustness of both the device and the d and the nft ecosystem on arbitrom uh the the future looks very bright uh so onwards to uh birthday number two looking forward to it thank you so much for having us

steven always such a blast yeah it's been great to have you guys so thank you so much and david what i heard from this is um when token yeah when the tech is mature and the tech is almost mature enough that's what i heard gotta go gotta finish puberty and we're going through puberty as we speak yeah there we go and of course guys if you want to get started on arbitrom actually the bankless newsletter which is a fantastic newsletter that you should subscribe to recently posted an article about how to get started in arbitram includes the arbitrim starter pack so that will guide you there and we do encourage of course you guys as we're exploring the frontier together go explore a roll up layer one is not enough anymore you need

to think about migrating to a roll-up and arbitrary could be one of those that you consider as always risks and disclaimers as we close ethe is risky so is crypto so is d5 you could definitely lose what you put in whether it's on layer one or layer two we're headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot you